Brzezinski: Baker Commission ‘Will Offer Some Procrastination Ideas For Dealing With The Crisis’
Brzezinski: Baker Commission ‘Will Offer Some Procrastination Ideas For Dealing With The Crisis’
Today on CNN, former National Security Adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski issued a strong, preemptive criticism of the Baker Commission studying alternatives for Iraq. Brzezinski said that while the commission “will probably come out with some sound advice on dealing with the neighborhood,” it essentially “will offer some procrastination ideas for dealing with the crisis.”
Brzezinski added that the Iraq war “is a mistaken, absolutely historically wrong undertaking. The costs are prohibitive. If we get out sooner, there will be a messy follow-up after we leave. It will be messy, but will not be as messy as if we stay.” Watch it:
Henry Kissinger, appearing on CNN with Brzezinski, said that “my attitude will be to support any bipartisan conclusion that would be arrived at” by the Baker commission. Brzenzinski countered, “I’ve been arguing this on your program with Henry for the last three years. And I invite viewers to go on the Internet and look what we have been saying, respectively.”
American Progress has a plan to stop procrastinating in Iraq, Strategic Redeployment.
Transcript:
KISSINGER: Well, this is an issue that I believe that the Baker commission ought to address, and certainly my attitude will be to support any bipartisan conclusion that would be arrived at. But we have to navigate between a situation in which we are engaging in the civil war that is — well, the sectarian war that is going on inside Iraq. And conditions in which we withdraw under circumstances in which, as we have seen in Lebanon and as we will see elsewhere, whatever structure exists in the region, disintegrates and a vacuum will be created that will be filled by the nearest powerful country, which in this case is probably Iran.
BLITZER: This is the argument that so many of the administration supporters, Dr. Brzezinski, are making, that if the U.S. were to take your advice and get out, let’s say, over the next year, there would be this huge vacuum that Iran would presumably take charge of, but also that Iraq — and I want you to respond to this — would become the new Afghanistan, if you will, but even much more dangerous because of all the oil that Iraq has.
BRZEZINSKI: Well, it already is the new Afghanistan. In fact, the lethality is much higher. But the point to understand is that if you undertake a historically mistaken adventure, the longer you stick with it, the higher the cost you pay for it.
BLITZER: You’re making the comparison to Vietnam.
BRZEZINSKI: Yes, our — or to Algeria. And when Henry says that the Baker commission is going to help us resolve it, I think that’s an illusion. The Baker commission will probably come out with some sound advice on dealing with the neighborhood, with Iran, with the Israeli- Palestinian issues, which is relevant but essentially will offer some procrastination ideas for dealing with the crisis.
The fact of the matter is, the undertaking itself is fundamentally wrong-headed. And I’ve been arguing this on your program with Henry for the last three years. And I invite viewers to go on the Internet and look what we have been saying, respectively.
This is a mistaken, absolutely historically wrong undertaking. The costs are prohibitive. If we get out sooner, there will be a messy follow-up after we leave. It will be messy, but will not be as messy as if we stay, seeking to win in some fashion.
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Down with the "Baker Boys"! They're nothing but a group of old GOP has beens, thugs (near indictment themselves in Iran Contra) and another means to procrastinate. Get rid of their BS - it's meaningless; that is, unless you are trying to cover dubya's butt! That's why they've been called into action. Sounding familiar?? It's what Pappy did all of Jr.'s life - bail him out, bail him out, and try to keep him from shooting himself in the foot his entire life. What a job!
November 26th, 2006 at 6:45 pmJudging from some of the stupid troll posts I've seen around here lately, I figure they are procrastinating until they can make the war into a "Democrat problem". Then they can pretend it has always been the fault of Democrats.
Right, trolls?
November 26th, 2006 at 6:50 pmThere is but one sane conclusion that the Baker Boys can have: immediate withdrawl from Iraq. Failing this, there is but one alternative: Congress must withhold financing the "war". If someone claims that this would send the wrong message to the troops that we do not support them, my answer is "no", we show our support by defining the boundaries as to the extent which we send them to be killed.
November 26th, 2006 at 7:00 pmI don't think that al-Qaeda will be a problem in iraq if we withdraw.
Civil wars also sort themselves out.
the biggest problem for my and that's why i oppose withdrawal is that muslim fundamentalists will take over iraq and their ideology says that they have to wipe israel of the map.
November 26th, 2006 at 7:07 pmBrzenzinski nails it along with a nice smackdown of Henry 'Dr Strangelove' Kissinger.
November 26th, 2006 at 7:08 pmI see that Kissinger had a Freudian slip and called it Civil war before correcting Himself and calling it Sectarian..
November 26th, 2006 at 7:08 pmGuess I'm banned from posting on this site.
November 26th, 2006 at 7:14 pmJames Baker is a sly old bastard: He is balls deep in Iraq but so far this has largely gone un-noticed.
Note the following key excerpt from Strategic Energy Policy Challenges for the 21st Century which was published about the time VP Cheney held secret energy meetings:
Iraq remains a destabilizing influence to U.S. allies in the Middle East,as well as to regional and global order,and to the flow of oil to international markets from the Middle East.Saddam Hussein has also demonstrated a willingness to threaten to use the oil weapon and to use his own export program to manipulate oil markets. [snip] The United States should conduct an immediate policy review toward Iraq,including military,energy,economic,and political/diplomatic assessments.
November 26th, 2006 at 7:15 pmthe biggest problem for my and that’s why i oppose withdrawal is that muslim fundamentalists will take over iraq and their ideology says that they have to wipe israel of the map.
Comment by charles — November 26, 2006 @ 7:07 pm
Unless someone can come up with a plan that has the Kurds rule all of Iraq that is all we are going to get-no matter what. Sunni, Shiite they both have a score to settle with us and Israel at least in their minds.
November 26th, 2006 at 7:17 pmGuess I’m banned from posting on this site.
Comment by CoffinsDrapedWithFlags
I see you, Coffins. Posting comments has been a bit weird lately.
November 26th, 2006 at 7:18 pmBaker and the Bush thugs are doing too well at being war profiteers for this commission to be taken seriously.
It is and always has been a matter of when people get tired of the killing, paying for war and putting a stop to the war profiteering industry which in America is huge.
If things are such that the Sunnis and Shiites want to have a Civil war, our troops are not going to be able to stop it. Remember Vietnam.
November 26th, 2006 at 7:20 pmIt's all just more B.S. from the Bush gangsters, from the coup that stole our democracy back in December, 2000, to letting nine-eleven happen, to the occupation of Afghanistan, the war on the Iraqi people March, 2003 (to date) and the electronic theft of the 2004 Presidential Election.
It's time for us to hit the flush button and remove the Bush gangsters from the White House and the Pentagon.
Imagine Iraqis running Iraq without benefit of occupying imperial western powers... Why it boggles the mind, sir, it's sort of like having Vietnamese running Vietnam without benefit of French colonials and American imperialists, it just ain't natural, sir.
Cheers.
November 26th, 2006 at 7:24 pmThat 'Strategic Plan' is bunko from the word go.
• There ARE NO SECURITY FORCES. What there are are Shi'ites who are loyal to Iran.
• There are peshmerga, but they only fight for Kurdistan.
There is no 'redeployment' to zero option under GFH Bush:
AIRBASES, YOU IDIOTS.
"Provide time for Iraq's elected leaders to strike a power-sharing agreement"
NOTHING like that is coming, or can come. Read 'The End of Iraq' by Peter Galbraith. The chance for an Iraq to emerge from this INTENTIONAL disaster by the profit-taking neocons EVAPORATED two years ago. And when I say evaporated, I mean, was blown away by very carefully planned chaos, refusing to restore Iraqi sovereignty when Hussein was removed (because how else to keep airbases?), and blowing the shit out of the national museum, the national library, hundreds of mosques, Al-Fallujah (and others), and the WARCRIMES AND GROSS CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE of Bushco -- something that is completely missing in CAP's mindlessly mediocre description of a non-existent path forward.
• You can't stop a civil war when you put 400 tons of high-explosives into the hands of the hostile parties.
*Please make a note of it.*
November 26th, 2006 at 7:27 pmPrior to 2003, James Baker wanted to ease Iraq oil-field investment.
But that's not all.
His institute also published a paper on the WMDs of Iraq. The reasoning to depose Saddam Hussein herein reads like a talking point sheet of the Bush admin.
Weapons of Mass Destruction and the Middle East: The View from Israel By Ze’ev Schiff
[snip]
The danger posed by weapons of mass destruction in the hands of Saddam Hussein is not restricted to the Middle East.
Such weapons could well reach radical terrorist organizations that have absolutely no political or moral restraints. They are liable to use WMD anywhere in the world, against American, British, Israeli or other targets—anyone, in fact, standing in their way.
Clearly, the finger of Saddam Hussein on the nuclear trigger could pose a serious threat to regional as well as international stability.
November 26th, 2006 at 7:27 pm"Imagine Iraqis running Iraq without benefit of occupying imperial western powers… Why it boggles the mind, sir, it’s sort of like having Vietnamese running Vietnam"
Only sort of. "There IS NO MORE IRAQ. There will be three territories." -- Henry 'We did it to them too' Kissinger, early 2004, briefing his Saudi clients.
Unlike Vietnam, Iraq was founded as an impossible mixture of three very different cultures. The Kurds never wanted part of Iraq in the first place, and now want no part of whatever is left, other than their own Kurdistan, and part of the action in Kirkuk.
The Kurds will NEVER accept Sunni rule, and neither will the Shi'ites. And the Shi'ites are fully funded by the Iranians, going back decades.
Since the only militias in the country that will actually fight are SECTARIAN TO THE CORE, you can forget about an Iraqi 'solution' to a brutal dismantlement by Kissingerite neocons who have lied America into another Holocaust, much like the Pol Pot Holocaust that Kissinger's illegal secret war on Cambodia (and Laos) set off.
We are back again in those days, aka Kissinger's Ugly Endpoints. Moral of the Story? We need to punish the warcriminals so that they can't come back and haunt us some more with their 'final solutions.'
November 26th, 2006 at 7:35 pmThe fundamentalists here want the same thing
November 26th, 2006 at 7:38 pm#10 Zooey - I posted a link which didn't show up. It was to an interesting book. Guess TP doesn't accept links anymore.
November 26th, 2006 at 7:42 pmHi zooey,
Check out my homepage.
November 26th, 2006 at 7:45 pm#15, Paul: And the Shi’ites are fully funded by the Iranians, going back decades.
1. Message From Iran Triggered Bombing Spree In Kuwait, The Washington Post, February 3, 1984
Al Dawa, for example, is no household name in the United States.
But it is a name important to this story.
It leads us back to Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, the ruling figure in Iran; to Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah, the militant Lebanese Shiite leader who has been implicated--despite his denials--in the Marine and French bombings in Beirut; to Hussein Musawi, Fadlallah's strong-arm lieutenant; to the Hakim brothers in Iran and their connections to the Middle East terrorism industry.
2. Pro-Iranian Shiites Held in Kuwait Bombings, The Washington Post December 19, 1983
Kuwait announced yesterday the arrest of 10 Shiite Moslems with ties to Iran in terrorist bombings that killed four people and wounded 66 last Monday at the U.S. Embassy and other targets.
"All 10 have admitted involvement in the incidents as well as participating in planning the blasts," Abdul Aziz Hussein, minister of state for Cabinet affairs, told reporters after a Cabinet session, United Press International reported.
Hussein said the seven Iraqis and three Lebanese were members of the Al Dawa party, a radical Iraqi Shiite Moslem group with close ties to Iran.
3. SHULTZ SEES LINK BETWEEN BEIRUT, KUWAIT ATTACKS OFFICIALS IDENTIFY MAN WHO DROVE TRUCK BOMB, The Miami Herald, December 14, 1983
Secretary of State George Shultz said Tuesday that there "quite likely" was a link between the U.S. Embassy bombing in Kuwait and attacks on American facilities in Lebanon. He warned of possible retaliation.
(snip)
The sources said the investigators matched the prints on the fingers with those on file with Kuwaiti authorities and
November 26th, 2006 at 7:45 pmtentatively identified the assailant as Raed Mukbil, an Iraqi automobile mechanic who lived in Kuwait and was a member of Hezb Al Dawa, a fundamentalist Iraqi Shiite Moslem group based in Iran.
will take over iraq and their ideology says that they have to wipe israel of the map.
Comment by charles
I think that the hebrew fundamentalism has been wiping palestinians from a long time ago. Guess you didnt notice that.
November 26th, 2006 at 7:50 pm"why i oppose withdrawal is that muslim fundamentalists will take over iraq and their ideology says that they have to wipe israel of the map."
Which, to the degree that is so, has been the case for five decades.
Since Bushco displayed their version of American Grand Evil to the 'Arab Street' (racist term used with a wink) -- these accomplishments:
• Iran acquired all of Hussein's precision machine tools, hundreds of tons of high-explosives needed for nuclear bomb production, all of Hussein's top-secret nuclear plans (in Arabic, off the public Internets), along with AQ Khan's help (without any punishment). The Bushco invasion directly aided the removal of the previous more-moderate gov't of Iran, and the win by the Islamic rightwing.
• Iraq's Iran-aligned Shi'ites are even more Iran-aligned, if that were possible. They have been given excellent instances of the vile racism and greed of the West. They have maybe 500,000 martyrs and killed family members to avenge.
• Lebanon has been destroyed by an entirely illegal series of warcrimes by Israel. A million clusterbombs and landmines have been placed in S. Lebanon, to create anti-Israel hatred for a hundred years into the future. Israel's rightwing, from Sharon to Olmert, have only the strategy of genocide to fall back on, as they demonstrate over and over. Bushco's invasion directly helps Hizbollah take a portion of power in Lebanon.
There are more examples of how this policy you support is taking Israel directly into an abyss. Those high-explosives, combined with the cannisters of Cesium and Strontium missing from Tuwaitha, would make a handy dirty bomb when parked in a truck on a hill overlooking Tel Aviv.
Your question SHOULD be -- What can be done to assuage hatred OTHER than making more of it?
One clue: WARCRIMES TRIALS for Bushco, and for Olmert's gov't.
• Allowing Palestine to form a country on the 1967 borders.
• MASSIVE reparations, in part paid by Saudi Arabia.
November 26th, 2006 at 7:57 pmCheck out my homepage.
Comment by CoffinsDrapedWithFlags
Cool. Really cool. Thanks!
Links are iffy these days...
November 26th, 2006 at 7:59 pm#19, "1. Message From Iran Triggered Bombing Spree In Kuwait, The Washington Post, February 3, 1984"
Ah, yes, just before Reagan and Casey (with Gates in tow) sold 3,000 TOW missiles to Iran, along with critically needed spare parts, via their agent in the Middle East, Israel.
That really showed the Mullahs, eh? Having Israel deliver missiles to Iran, missiles which were grossly overbilled to significant Iranian anger, really, really helped give the impression that Israel is a just nation with a 'right to exist' by whatever means it selects, including repeated warcrimes and crimes against humanity. A right it acquired after BOMBING BRITISH TROOPS in the 30s, and bombing the Liberty in the 70s. Who knows? Maybe they helped 'bomb' Building 7.
It's wonderful being a racist, as long as you're a Jew. You can kill as many Arabs as you want, and they just tell their followers it's all about LEBENSRAUM. You couldn't make this stuff up.
November 26th, 2006 at 8:08 pmActually, worse than the TOW missiles and spare parts, was the Reagan/Bush I aid to Hussein targeting its chemical weapons attacks on the Iranian troops, and possibly upon the poor people of Hallabja and Iraqi Kurdistan. That got Rumsfeld a hearty handshake!
Yeah, it's a great history. Something to be proud of, if you're insane.
November 26th, 2006 at 8:12 pm#4, charles: muslim fundamentalists will take over iraq
Will?
Islamic fundamentalists have taken over Iraq.
Real power in Iraq is in the hands of the Al Dawa and the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution of Iraq (sic!!), and Muqtada Al Sadr.
The first two have been trying through violent means to transform a secular Iraq (under Saddam Hussein) into a Shiite fundamentalist state for over the last twenty years.
The Al Dawa and the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution of Iraq, and Muqtada Al Sadr are pro-Hezbollah, pro-Iranian extremist Mullah, anti-Israel, and anti-American.
In the 1980s (see below), Al Dawa was a terrorist organization. Today it is a ruling power in Iraq.
REMEMBER: The fathering of the Islamic fundamentalist state in Iraq is the inadvertent BUT direct response to the horrific attacks of 9/11.
WTF?
1) Large Turnout Reported For 1st Iraqi Vote Since '58 The Washington Post, June 21, 1980
In another development today, Al Dawa, a clandestine Iraqi fundamentalist Moslem organization, claimed responsibility for yesterday's grenade attack on the British Embassy here in which three gunmen reportedly were killed.
An Al Dawa spokesman told Agence France-Presse by phone that the attack was a "punitive operation against a center of British and American plotters.
2. Iraq Keeps a Tight Rein on Shiites While Bidding to Win Their Loyalty The Washington Post, November 30, 1982
Membership in Dawa, which means "the call," is punishable by execution. Dawa guerrillas were known for hurling grenades into crowds during religious ceremonies, and attacks claimed by the party were frequent until the middle of 1980.
November 26th, 2006 at 8:19 pm"The first two have been trying through violent means to transform a secular Iraq (under Saddam Hussein) into a Shiite fundamentalist state for over the last twenty years."
By violent means to transform secular Iraq? You mean while 'secular Iraq' was busy committing genocide on the Kurds, and later the Marsh Arabs?
I guess the cyanide wasn't a violent means -- those U.S. targeted chemical weapons explode with a faint pop, and then people just fell down.
Here's a clue: violent means were the ONLY way Sunni Ba'athists were able to hold Iraq in terror for thirty years.
November 26th, 2006 at 8:49 pmPeople put in power
play their deadly game
Searching, vainly searching,
for someone else to blame.
(Soldiers die,
mothers cry;
Omni-impotent fathers wonder why.)
As long as there’s a profit,
We’ll wait another day,
While children of the wealthy
“round the rosie†play.
“Asses ashes all fall downâ€
When the prophet comes to town.
Wonder who the rich will pay
to keep their children safe that day?
When babies in their cradle
Are gently rocked to sleep
By cluster bombs and bloody palms,
Ne’er their souls to keep.
(Soldiers die,
mothers cry)
While the politicians lie.
And people in their bomb shelters
November 26th, 2006 at 8:53 pmplay their deadly game:
Searching, vainly searching,
for someone else to blame.
Comment by Paul in LA
"There are more examples of how this policy you support is taking Israel directly into an abyss."
I didn't support the invasion and I wasn't buying into nation building in 2003.
But now we are there and I think that we should stay there until we can find a way of getting out that does not endanger our allies. Especially, Israel.
And I don't know how your proposal to hand over land to the Palestinians in return for not much help with the situation in Iraq. last i heard Iraqis hate palestinians just a bit less than Israel.
November 26th, 2006 at 9:02 pmThese commissions by design are made to suck people's anger. After people began to demanding an investigation of 9/11..the President appointed a Commission,and he put restrictions on its scope of findings.The President then started with who ? to head the commission !!!..Henry Kissinger..who later withdrew his name because of 'conflict of interest'. The commission was restricted and didn't cover all aspects of the events of 9/11. But it served the President well. Now we have another commission by a friend of the President's father and ex-Secretary of State and again to include ex-Congressman Hamilton. The Commission as Brzezinski said 'will procrastinate'..and it will be used as reference in all briefings to Congress and people as the way to go. Why people should depend on retired politicians who are not elected,and served their times in the past...where is Condi Rice?!..also why Brzezinski is not on the Commission as smart as he is in foreign policy?!...While the Commission has names like Edwin Meese, ex-Supreme Court Judge Sandra Day O'Connor? !!
November 26th, 2006 at 9:03 pmand in the meantime...
http://my.earthlink.net/article/top?guid=20061126/45691f50_3ca6_1552620061126-307515925
The same day a secret service man was beat up, purse stolen, etc.
He can't even keep his own safe.
What an A**hole
November 26th, 2006 at 9:21 pmthe biggest problem for my and that’s why i oppose withdrawal is that muslim fundamentalists will take over iraq and their ideology says that they have to wipe israel of the map.
Comment by charles — November 26, 2006 @ 7:07 pm
Do you use a crystal ball for your predictions, or are you just psychic?
Israel didn't exist on the map before the 1950's. How would you feel if Russia and China carved out Texas and gave it to the Iraqis that we've misteated? It would be comparable to what happened after WWII to the Middle East... In fact, since you all want to coddle them so much,
November 26th, 2006 at 9:51 pmwhy not just give the Isralis your state, so that they can leave the perils of the Middle East and we don't have to keep having this ridiculous conversation over and over and over?
Did someone say "send in the clowns"? That's all Bakers bunch are. Old thugs and a cast of jew handlers to help them keep the corporate interests in mind. The power brokers at these multinational corporations need to be drug out in to the street and set on fire while alive and then their dead bodies processed through a guillotine. The world is collapsing under the corporate thugs that are circling the globe, depleting it of resources, exterminating any resistance to them and laughing all the way to the bank.
November 26th, 2006 at 9:53 pmHere’s a clue: violent means were the ONLY way Sunni Ba’athists were able to hold Iraq in terror for thirty years.
Comment by Paul in LA
huh, what does Saudi do?
November 26th, 2006 at 10:10 pm1948.
November 26th, 2006 at 10:28 pmNot 1950's.
He makes me feel, Zbig, Zbig, Zbig!
-GSD
November 26th, 2006 at 10:28 pmCoffinDrapedWithFlags, thanks for the link.
If lying under oath about an extra-marital affair constitutes "high crimes and misdemeanors" worthy of impeachment by a Republican Congress, then the allegations, if proved, listed on your link should merit such a proceeding as well.
It's not about revenge, it's about seeing to it the President is not above the law of the land and that the Constituion does indeed apply to the President.
November 26th, 2006 at 10:31 pmBrzezinski has always been 100x more intelligent than Kissinger! It's time for the Congress to cut off all the funds for keeping our troops in Iraq and to start pulling them out come January 2007! As for Bush and Cheney they must be impeached and sent to the Hague to be tried for war crimes! Baker and the rest of the Bush family toads must be deported to Israel!
November 26th, 2006 at 10:33 pmMaybe , they are going to blame Iran and Syria for creating the mess.We are probably going to be told that Iran is not being constructive in Iraq because they
November 26th, 2006 at 10:38 pmare trying to go nuclear.
Anyone remember when they were blaming China for providing the insurgents with Roadside Bombs ?Anything but their own incompetence.
Abizaid already started the non-sensical talking point on 60minutes.
Brzenzinski countered “And I’ve been arguing this on your program with Henry for the last three years
November 26th, 2006 at 11:08 pmAny chance he could just haul off and smack some sense into Kissassinger?
Can someone please tell me why we put any value in Kissinger's opinion, and why he is even sitting there half asleep, trying to debate Z? It's kind of silly. They drag this old corpse out, whose only mastery is in being dead wrong over and over, and somehow we are supposed to care what he thinks??? Well, I dont give a flying fork. What a sloth that guy is. He should just go away and stay away. Really, Henry, do us all a favor.
November 26th, 2006 at 11:44 pmBut now we are [in Iraq] and I think that we should stay there until we can find a way of getting out that does not endanger our allies. Especially, Israel.
Comment by charles — November 26, 2006 @ 9:02 pm
In other words, let's let the carnage continue until some future administration can find a way to get out of Iraq and save face. Or simply get out in ignominy, Vietnam style.
It's too late now to worry about anything but the impact the occupation of Iraq is having in either Iraq, or the US. This administration should have had contingency plans for the current situation back in 2003, before the invasion (was it really so difficult to imagine Iraqis would not welcome the US as liberators?).
Further, the dictum "we should stay until [fill in your excuse of choice here]" makes an open mockery of Iraq's supposed sovereignty and self-determination, and smacks of imperial hubris.
November 27th, 2006 at 12:00 amThere you have it ladies and gentlemen, Brzezinski is yet another to call the invasion of Iraq a mistake of historical proportions.
Such is Pres Bush's legacy for future generations.
November 27th, 2006 at 12:16 amMUST READ:
Sunday, November 26th, 2006
Cut and Run, the Only Brave Thing to Do ...a letter from Michael Moore
Friends,
Tomorrow marks the day that we will have been in Iraq longer than we were in all of World War II.
That's right. We were able to defeat all of Nazi Germany, Mussolini, and the entire Japanese empire in LESS time than it's taken the world's only superpower to secure the road from the airport to downtown Baghdad.
And we haven't even done THAT. [...]
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/message/index.php?id=202
November 27th, 2006 at 12:36 am.
"Baker and the rest of the Bush family toads must be deported to Israel!" - Jay
How about a 1-way ticket for Bush & Co. to Baghdad...outside the Green Zone. And keep the Secret Service detail for ex-con...I mean ex-presidents...at home. Let's let the Iraqi people greet them as the liberators they are.
November 27th, 2006 at 12:47 am"I didn’t support the invasion and I wasn’t buying into nation building in 2003."
Did you support Israel's warcrimes against Lebanon?
"But now we are there and I think that we should stay there until we can find a way of getting out that does not endanger our allies. Especially, Israel."
TOO LATE. Now all that will happen is that our soldiers will die FOR NOTHING (or for those airbases). Are you in favor of installing airbases by force?
"And I don’t know how your proposal to hand over land to the Palestinians in return for"
In return for nothing. Palestinians have a definite right to their own nation, as recognized by the UN a very long time ago. They were forced off their land by Zionist racists with the backing of British racists (or imperialists). Since no one argues that they have lived in Palestine continuously for 2,000+ years, you can hardly argue that they have to jump through some First World hoop to get their native sovereignty back.
"last i heard Iraqis hate palestinians just a bit less than Israel." --charles
Well, that's an odd statement, since Iraqis is not ONE culture, but three major ones, each with different major orientations. Do the Sunni Arabs hate Palestinian Arabs? Maybe they do. Too bad they will be FLEEING to Syria in ten minutes, and will enjoy the refugee status their bastard leader put on the Kurds and the Marsh Shi'ites, with their help.
Karma is a bitch.
November 27th, 2006 at 1:19 amQuestion:
November 27th, 2006 at 1:44 amAre those needlessly money wasting hypocrites being paid with tax payer's money?
American Progress has a plan to stop procrastinating Iraq, Strategic Redeployment.
Yes you do. Not a sensible, logical or relevant plan but a plan nonetheless. I don't know why you keep linking to it though, clearly none of your readers want to read it.
Or perhaps they already have and the reason you see absolutely zero references to its content and recommendations in any of the dozens of threads in which you mention it is because your readers are far too polite/subservient to criticise it with the same energy they do the current strategy and tactics in Iraq.
It is certainly one of the two. After all, in reply to the current civil war in Iraq not even Bush's administration has proposed anything as ridiculous and naive as your proposals for the training of Iraqi forces (using nobody to train them within a year) and prevention of the civil war (using the navy stationed over the horizon).
It appears to constructed upon the Kerry principle: If people will settle for any credible option other than the current one, disappoint them.
November 27th, 2006 at 1:56 am"instability, brutality, intolerance, extremism and terrorism. there will be no military victory or military solution for iraq. former secretary of state henry kissinger made this point last weekend."
And then LAUGHED at the irony the whole way home.
"There IS NO MORE IRAQ. There will be three territories." -- Kissinger, early 2004, briefing his Saudi clients.
"Bremer's decision to assume all power for himself rather than transfer authority to an Iraqi government was probably the most fateful of his decisions...it was Bremer's decision to keep power that changed the United States from being seen by many as a liberator, to being universally regarded as an occupier." -- "The End of Iraq," pg. 122
Paul 'Jerry' Bremer,
• Special Assistant, SecState Kissinger (Ford admin.)
• Ambassador-at-Large for Counterterrorism in 1986
• Managing director at Kissinger and Associates, 1989
• Chairman of the National Commission on Terrorism in 1999
• Co-chair of the Heritage Foundation's Homeland Security Task Force (which wrote the policy)
• As head of CPA, person most responsible for turning on the civil war in Iraq.
Hagel surely knows his way around IRONY.
Bremer, and his boss Kissinger, sure know how to create terror. They're EXPERTS. After all, that's why GFH Bush wanted Kissinger to chair the Nine-eleven 'omission, right?
Shit just keeps on 'happening.' The same fingerprints at the scene of the crime, over and over. Baker is just Kissinger's right asscheek.
November 27th, 2006 at 2:38 amCoffin=Great Webpage!
BnF=Great Poem!
This is a great thread. No trolls around I guess...
November 27th, 2006 at 2:40 amI know it's rather difficult to even speak out the word 'jew'
without being accused of racism. Fact is 'Israel' is a 'Jewish'
state, a religious republic just like Iran.
As somebody stated earlier, 'israelis' have a general allowance
to go and kill whoever they believe is doubting their 'right' of excistence. Makes me wonder why the rest of the global poulation doesn't have the same rights. Furthermore I believe the Mossad goes around and kills all kinds of people to inflamate(?) hate and aggression amongst its enemies. And enemies this little artificial piece of land has more than anything else. Just ponder about JerUSAlem. The United States is run by israelis since long time ago. One day You will see the appropriate flag in front of the WH.
In my eyes there is only one solution:
Military out of Afghanistan and Iraq and UN Peacekeepers in blue uniform and white vehicles as a presence of global support. Support is the magic word. Not weapon supplies. These people need basic equipment like food, clothes and shelter. There will never be peace in an area where these basics are artificially held back or in good bushistic tradition intentionally withdrawn.
Get our GI Joes out of there and blue helmets in. Get the country rebuilt by allied muslim countries and You will see that progress is possible.
Just get rid of the people who started this needless massacre
intentionally to rake in record profits on the expense of the hard working majority of this Great Country.
If I kill only one person for reasons of personal monetary gains, where do You think would I be?
"your readers are far too polite/subservient to criticise it with the same energy they do the current strategy and tactics in Iraq."
Tank, read #13. And your blaming of Kerry for what Bush did is HILARIOUS.
There is NO ONE TO TRAIN. It doesn't matter how many of our troops are there, there is no one to train.
Notice how YOU don't seem to have the testicles to mention the airbases. Oh well, it must be fun to ignore the obvious while pretending you have a higher moral or tactical caliber. You're shooting blanks.
• Too bad the 194 metric tons of HMX Bush handed out still has plenty of bang left. And you want to leave troops in a theater with THAT kind of mismanagement? You obviously care not at all about our troops.
November 27th, 2006 at 2:43 amYeah... either that's the reason people refer to you as rascist, or this is....
November 27th, 2006 at 2:47 am
Probably be even funnier if that happened lunatic. I didn't blame Kerry for anything other than being Kerry. The man who managed to lose against GWBush.
There's several hundred thousand who have already undertaken some level of training.
You should repeat that a 3rd time without any reference to why you are contradicting this. Might work better than the first two.
I failed to mention many things that weren't the topic of my post, or major principles of the plan I was talking about. That's how discussions work kook.
Hey there's an idea. Write yourself off as a raving nutjob and then expect your opinion of others to mean something. Good luck with that.
November 27th, 2006 at 2:59 amTank
Thanks to people like You
November 27th, 2006 at 3:27 amwe are in deep shit.
Denial all the way
never solutions
You are a demagogue.
"The man who managed to lose against GWBush."
Kerry did not 'lose.' The election was STOLEN. Look it up, if you don't know what it means.
"There is NO ONE TO TRAIN."
"There’s several hundred thousand who have already undertaken some level of training."
Yes, the U.S. military is training more Shi'ite militia.
"You should repeat that a 3rd time without any reference to why you are contradicting this."
You will have to ask Bremer why he disbanded the actual existing army, or why Rumsfeld failed to write orders guarding the materiel, especially the explosives, which have ARMED THE INSURGENCY.
"I failed to mention many things that weren’t the topic of my post, or major principles of the plan I was talking about. "
To 'fail' to mention the airbases is to ignore why training an 'Iraqi' army is futile. It is futile because Iraq is in a permanent state of occupation, and there AREN'T MANY Iraqis who will line up to defend the U.S. invasion of their country.
• Too bad the 194 metric tons of HMX Bush handed out still has plenty of bang left"
Good luck with that." --Tank
Yeah, good luck to our troops, in their Humvees that haven't been up-armored because Rumsfeld DIDN'T ORDER THE ARMOR.
Just keep blowing smoke, Tank. Your buddy Rumsfeld didn't deploy our troops in sufficient armor. He also armed the IEDs that are killing our soldiers. You want to keep our soldiers in a killzone created by the C-in-C through illegal orders and criminal negligence, in order to train people who don't exist. And I'm the "kook":
"With their hands full in Fallujah and in the south, the Americans and their allies needed the help of the new Iraqi Army and police. Half of the army deserted. Some Sunni Arab soldiers joined the insurgents in Fallujah, and some Shi'ite soldiers joined the Mahdi Army. Sunni Arabs refused to fight their fellow Sunni Arabs on behalf of a predominantly Shi'ite-Kurdish army and the foreign occupier. Even Shi'ite soldiers recruited from militias hostile to al-Sadr, like the Badr Organization, refused to join the Americans in a fight against fellow Shi'ites." -- "The End of Iraq," page 133.
November 27th, 2006 at 4:44 am# 52 There’s several hundred thousand who have already undertaken some level of training.
Yes but how many of those do we know are reliable? From almost everything I've heard they at best ignore the militias and at worst are active participants in their vigilante justice. I think the idea that there is this uncorrupt ,efficient group of iraqis we can train is bollocks.. all we are doing is training the islamic equivalent of the crips and the bloods..
November 27th, 2006 at 5:09 amWithdrawal from Iraq now will be less painful than years from now
November 27th, 2006 at 5:23 am"You want to keep our soldiers in a killzone created by the C-in-C"
What like a "war" zone ? Soldiers ? In a war zone ? On the orders of the President ? WTF is that about ? The US has a military ?
Get a grip. It's 3000 dead in 3.5 years. Out of 1.5 million who have served. This place posts comparisons to other wars in terms of days in country because the actual casualty rate doesn't rate.
If you really believe this is beyond the pale the quit the rants you're working now and start calling for the US miltary to be disbanded. Because unless you think you'll need them to invade Iceland sometime soon then there is no warzone in which you will be comfortable sending them to.
November 27th, 2006 at 5:48 amYes but how many of those do we know are reliable?
Those what ? Slow down there pal. Right now we're not only having trouble agreeing that these troops exist, but apparently whether there are any people in Iraq. You're getting way ahead of yourself.
November 27th, 2006 at 5:56 amI don't know whose suggesting the iraqi troops don't exist. Maybe someone is. I'm not. I can only speak for myself. I'm just suggesting there's no evidence that they are reliable, well trained, and not, for the most part, in leauge with or indifferent to the militias.
November 27th, 2006 at 7:37 am# 57 This place posts comparisons to other wars in terms of days in country because the actual casualty rate doesn’t rate.
If by saying "casualty" you mean fatalities only then yes, I beleive there is some validity to what you saying. But thats more because theres more lifesaving technology these days and a smaller percentage of injured soldiers are dying, because of that tecnology. The injured numbers/percentages speak more to the visciousness of the actual conflict I believe. Also I think you should look more at the average number of troops in the theatre, over the course of the war, instead of using the total number of troops we have in the world .. (this IS what that 1.5 mil # was, right?) I remember reading something about how there was 20,000 injured soldiers.. out of 150,000 average in the theatre.. yikes.. thats like over 1 in 8... look to your left, look to your right...
Also, the importance and effect of a war on national security is probably just as relevant a discussion factor as length or raw casualty count. As I've said repeatedly, the entire premise this war was based on was utterly and thoroughly retarded... I'm no history buff but I doubt the same can be said for say, WW II or something like that.
November 27th, 2006 at 7:49 am"“You want to keep our soldiers in a killzone created by the C-in-Câ€
"It’s 3000 dead in 3.5 years."
25% of which the U.S. Army War College says died because of LACK OF ARMOR.
Your answer: Yeah, I want to keep our soldiers in a killzone CREATED by gross misconduct of the C-in-C:
Hey, what part of OUR NATIONAL SECURITY was GFH Bush:
• Providing Hussein's top secret nuclear bomb plans, in Arabic, to anyone who has an internet connection in the world, for six months -- even after being told that our zipper was wide open.
Oh, wait -- that's right, these are the WIDE-OPEN ZIPPER EXPERTS.
November 27th, 2006 at 8:01 amIMHO: very soon there won't be a question of redeploying troops from Iraq on whatever plan there may be. It will be a question of "yankee go home".
Al Sadr has already threatened to withdraw his party from the government if Al Maliki meets with President Bush. The President and the US along with him is poison for Al Maliki politically and for anybody who wants to hold office in Iraq. They will continue to push for US withdrawal as started when the checkpoints around Sadr City have been ordered to be closed recently. No Iraqi politician can afford to seem to be welcoming or supporting the US involvement.
So I expect to see a US withdrawal soon, maybe with some face-saving involved, maybe not.
As to the future of Iraq: I bet someone out there is looking for a Saddam Hussein replacement already (read the LA Times).
Just one example: Imagine the Kurds getting an own state there. It would comprise the nucleus of a independent Kurdistan and might give the Kurds in the neighboring countrys ideas of independence. Now this will mainly affect Turkey, Iran and Syria. The area inhabited by Kurds is connected and rather larger than Syria. It's rich in oil and other natural resources, Kurdistan if it existed would be a significant power in the region.
Syria, Iran and Turkey will never accept losing large areas of their richest provinces. The Kurdish people is long suffering from oppression. Turkey, Syria, Iran and of course Saddam's regime have committed atrocities against Kurds. In Turkey even mentioning their existence is dangerous, they are called "mountain turks" there, and the culture and language are forbidden. This is one of the reasons because the EU is not accepting Turkey into its ranks.
My guess is that in the end, when hundreds of thousands have died needlessly, the powers that be will decide that a strong man is the only solution for Iraq and for stability in the region. And I'm deeply sorry for every human being who gave his/her life or health and their families for this stupid and needless war.
November 27th, 2006 at 8:13 amAnd I can only quote those who have already posted. If you see a statement directly below some quoted text take a moment to try and connect those two dots.
Yeah there's also no evidence of global warming using that same test. You haven't read the IPCC reports just the same as you've never bothered to look at DoD assessments of Iraq security forces.
Suggesting there is no evidence for something based on the fact you have never looked is really only an assessment of your worth.
So do you believe that the military of both nations, the militias, the insurgency, al Qaeda in Iraq, the world's press and diplomats are all lying when they refer to the daily joint operations conducted between US and Iraqi forces ?
Or that US forces are tolerating the Iraqi units they go into combat with shooting at them before they all jump back into humvees, go back to base and do it again the next day ?
Honestly I can't think of a 3rd hypothetical where your assessment would work. It's ridiculous enough already.
November 27th, 2006 at 8:20 amWelcome to Windows Live Ideas. Your online world gets better when everything works simply and effortlessly together. That's the basic
November 27th, 2006 at 8:22 amThe only purpose that would serve would be to misrepresent the figures by comparing a 3.5 year total to a one-day total.
Yeah and if you look at that 20000 out of the number that were getting injured at that time in Iraq its 1 in 1. Yikes !
November 27th, 2006 at 8:34 amOn the other hand if you wanted to compare a total with another total it's 1 in 75.
Now stop replying to me or read before you do.
Ive got an idea.. instead of debating the arguable facts and questionably meaningful statistics why dont we make some future predictions and see whose pan out huh?
Why dont you start?
I predict these guys in Iraq are going to tear themselves apart. I predict it wont be long before everyone is wishing Saddam was back.
You can sit here and pontificate about how wonderful the trained iraqi soliders are doing , then they can't even repel attacks with US assistance, but in the end, only the future will show us whose right.
November 27th, 2006 at 8:53 amWhile Bush wants people to see the free Iraq as a triumph for the NeoCons years of planning; after years of this liberation Bush cannot even meet with the Iraqi prime minister in Baghdad. Bush,instead decided to meet with the Iraqi prime minister in Jordan[a neighboring country of Iraq].
November 27th, 2006 at 10:24 amSorry, I meant when they cant even repel attacks WITHOUT US assistance.
I mean argue all you want, in the end results speak louder than this mental circle jerk ever will.
I predict america is going to get it ass thoroughly handed to it in iraq, and its just a shame that we aren't back in the days where the general rode at the front of the calvary, because if we did, the bordline retarded people at the head of our military would have to actually pay some real consequences for this gross midadventure. As it is, the poor smuck just trying to make a living or simply motivated by misguided but well meaning patriotism is the one paying the price with his life or limbs.
Actually, let me take that back.. bordline retarded isnt the right word for anyone in charge of the military but our commander-in-theif. Everyone else still in the upper circles just thinks they are much, much smarter than they really are. Anyone who thinks "USA can do anything!" (or that any country can do anything, for that matter), is seriously deluding themselves. We gave saddam the weapons and gas to deal with these guys so we didnt have to. Now we have to, and nothing good is going to come of it.
The "security forces" are never going to amount to squat, the iraqi government will disintigrate, and we will leave in discrace, probably only when congress hangs the threat of impeachment over bush's head.
These things will happen. If you agree with my prediction, then our disagreement is pointless. If you disagree, well, you're going to be proven wrong.
In the end, results and the ability to accurately predict the outcome of events matter more than talking about the past. The ability to project into the future is what separates us from lower forms of life. Some of us more than others :)
November 27th, 2006 at 10:29 amJohn,
my prediction:
a) US military is going to get forced/thrown out of Iraq.
b) New Dictatorship will be restoring "order".
c) International companies will start doing business with the Dictatorship immediately after the coup d'etat.
d)Money will continue to be made, innocents will continue to be slaughtered.
Nothing gained. So sad.
November 27th, 2006 at 11:15 amZbig is right here. Be very wary of what comes out of the Baker-Hamilton Commission report. The last time Hamilton's name was attached to a Commission report the quality of the work was suspect at best.
November 27th, 2006 at 1:10 pmYeah there's an idea. After the prowess you've displayed so far with screwing up interpretation of pretty much everything including simple math why not use that as a basi for making predictions.
Maybe you could get some hobos together and form a think tank.
WTF is wrong with you. The basis on which they were being discussed was that they existed. Why don't you sit here and pontificate how wonderful the death squads are on the same basis.
November 27th, 2006 at 3:55 pmIt's like ADHD High in here.
I think our invasion of Iraq is the worst mistake by our government in our history. It well have a negative effect on the Middle East for generations.
November 27th, 2006 at 5:20 pmWe should leave at once and Bush should be put on trial for war crimes.
Tank still hasn't figured out how to account for • Providing Hussein’s top secret nuclear bomb plans, in Arabic, to anyone who has an internet connection in the world.
That was WONDERFUL for our national security. How come Tank isn't calling for an impeachment of all parties involved?
Sucking the Bushtit for all it's worth-- which ain't much.
November 27th, 2006 at 8:48 pmI wasn't aware I was required to "account" for these. Not least of all because nobody I've been in a discussion with has mentioned them nor are they relevant to anything discussed. You've failed to account for Russia's sputnik space program in the same way.
Is there any reason anyone would need to account for them ? The fact that they were classified does not grant them importance to anyone other than the host. The fact that Iraq couldn't produce a working nuclear device using any plans they had, including these, should inform you as to just how pivotal these will be for the rest of the world.
Iraq had no viable nuclear designs. Hence these would be of use to a rogue nation who intends to be as much or less of a nuclear threat than Iraq was. Awesome. Go for gold kids.
Another point you've failed to appreciate is that a state obtaining viable nuclear designs really isn't any major step in terms of them becoming a nuclear power.
Firstly it's quite a laughable premise that would see them poised, Cheetos in hand, carefully watching the internet for years waiting for these to be divulged rather than just buying them instead of 20 odd years of chatting on MSM and playing online tetris to pass the time until now.
Secondly, the acquisition of enrichment facilities, scientists and a period of decades in which to first perfect enrichment then conduct this process is a far greater hurdle than obtaining these plans. Are you thinking someone is going to start now and might become a threat sometime after 2020 ? Or that they have already completed this and were just twiddling their thumbs until Iraq's (Iraq's) WMD plans became available. Please.
Iran was handed the most advanced uranium enrichment processing facilities that Europe had to offer complete assistance and directions and still couldn't manage to construct or operate them.
Sorry, I've lost track of WTF the original concern was in regard to somebody who cannot achieve all these measures in regard to a viable nuclear weapons program. Oh year, the acquiring of nuke trigger plans off the internet for the detonation of the nuclear weapon you don't and won't have. Right. That.
November 27th, 2006 at 10:11 pmYeah piss your pants already. That's just so significant.
Tank still hasn’t figured out how to account for • Providing Hussein’s top secret nuclear bomb plans, in Arabic, to anyone who has an internet connection in the world.
"I wasn’t aware I was required to “account†for these."
You are. If you are going to suggest that our troops should continue to be misused in a booby-trapped nation building exercise by THESE clowns, like the C-in-C who released Hussein's nuclear secrets to the world, or people like the former SecDef who failed to guard the high-explosives dumps, then you aren't in reality.
You're blowing smoke. We all know it. The plan in Iraq is no plan at all. We're tired of you people wasting our troops. YOU, you don't care how many of our troops die, so long as the 'number' looks OK to your way of viewing things. Nevermind their families -- nevermind the massive crimes committed against them by their command.
November 27th, 2006 at 11:35 pm"Another point you’ve failed to appreciate is that a state obtaining viable nuclear designs really isn’t any major step in terms of them becoming a nuclear power." -- Tank
I'm glad you've gone on record with your opinion that protecting top-secret information about nuclear weapons is MEANINGLESS.
Your view is that the Rosenbergs should never have been convicted, much less executed. You're on record supporting spies and belittling the spread of nuclear weapons plans. And yet YOU, somehow, will lead us out into the light. HILARIOUS
November 27th, 2006 at 11:42 pmI'm certainly on record as being able to tell the difference between Iraq and the US. Something you just explained you're having trouble with.
Anyway I'm sure they'll get around to prosecuting Negroponte for leaking top secret classified intel right after they prosecute Colin Powell.
After all, he disclosed lots of intel about Iraq's WMD programs on the floor of the UN to the whole world.
No word yet on what law if any they would be prosecuted under (is the Iraqi legal up to this?) but I'm sure you'll send some emails around and let everyone in on the secret.
And here the whole world was thinking the "CIA leak investigation" involving "White House officials" related to Valerie Plame. You knew the truth all along though didn't you. That's why Colin had to go. He's no doubt in hiding now. Sheesh.
November 28th, 2006 at 2:53 amSharp as a marshmallow and twice as thick.
Ah perhaps that's the answer for why Thinkprogress links to their "Strategic Redeployment" plan so frequently yet no comments regarding it can ever be found.
They're all deleted for pointing out it's flaws. LOL.
Ah the hypocrisy.
Since there was no personal abuse, profanity or racist remarks in that post I wonder what term or condition it was deleted under. Could be quite a few by my calculation. Pointing out that a plan which called for stemming the ethnic cleansing on Baghdad streets using the Navy from a position on the other side of the horizon ? Well that certainly wouldn't get past this rule relating to what can be posted:
+ content ... that is, racist ... obscene, or that intentionally discriminates against or harasses particular individuals or groups.
I guess that's why the Strategic Redeployment plan has to be hosted on another site. Can't be posted here. The irony, it hurts.
Hey why not treat us to another story about Bush having discussion groups screened, editing reports, censoring criticism or the media not facing up to the tough questions. Hehe. Pussies.
November 28th, 2006 at 3:15 amAnyway I’m sure they’ll get around to prosecuting Negroponte for leaking top secret classified intel right after they prosecute Colin Powell.
After all, he disclosed lots of intel about Iraq’s WMD programs on the floor of the UN to the whole world.
Tank,
If one calls what Colin Powell disclosed on the floor of the UN intelligence, Ian Fleming has to be prosecuted for disclosing so many details about Britain's Secret Service. Facts and Fiction my dear.
Fact is: Iraq is a mess
Fact is: The current Administrations is responsible
You can throw around with lengthy posts all you want, you wont change the facts.
November 28th, 2006 at 5:54 am"I’m certainly on record as being able to tell the difference between Iraq and the US."
So, your view is that releasing nuclear plans on the public worldwide internet is no big deal.
It was also no big deal to give away 5+ metric tons of PETN, the stuff that shoe-bomber Richard Reid tried to use.
Either action is the definition of TREASON: "Section. 3. Treason against the United States, shall consist only in...adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort."
235 metric TONS of HMX and RDX, given away to hostiles through either treason or gross criminal negligence is EXACTLY like giving aid to our Enemies.
November 28th, 2006 at 7:59 am"Get a grip. It’s 3000 dead in 3.5 years. Out of 1.5 million who have served. This place posts comparisons to other wars in terms of days in country because the actual casualty rate doesn’t rate"
How about the Iraqi casualty rate? Does it not count that hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqis have been killed due to our illegal invasion of their soveregn nation? Does it not matter that we have turned the vast majority of Iraqis against us? I guess as long as the US casualties are relatively low, it doesn't matter that what we're doing over there is WRONG.
November 28th, 2006 at 2:27 pmIraq Study Group Will Call For Gradual U.S. Troop Pullback...
The Iraq Study Group co-chaired by former Secretary of State James Baker II has reached a consensus: it's time to start a gradual withdrawal of U.S. troops, but not to do it on a specific timetable, ...
November 30th, 2006 at 12:14 am[...] I’m so confused: the realists are saying the opposite. [...]
November 30th, 2006 at 9:50 amWelcome to Windows Live Ideas. Your online world gets better when everything works simply and effortlessly together. That's the basic
December 19th, 2006 at 8:01 amIt is a nice comment....
December 21st, 2006 at 2:11 am