MSNBC, NBC News Decide To Call Civil War In Iraq ‘A Civil War’
MSNBC, NBC News Decide To Call Civil War In Iraq ‘A Civil War’
MSNBC and NBC News have decided to begin referring to the civil war raging in Iraq as a “civil war.” MSNBC’s Contessa Brewer explained that “the White House continues to resist” the phrase, but that “after careful thought, MSNBC and NBC News decided over the weekend, the terminology is appropriate, as armed militarized factions fight for their own political agendas.” Watch it:
Transcript:
The news from Iraq is becoming grimmer every day. Over the long holiday weekend bombings killed more than 200 people in a Shiite neighborhood in Baghdad. And six Sunni men were doused with kerosene and burned alive. Shiite muslims are the majority, but Sunnis like Saddam Hussein ruled that country until the war. Now, the battle between Shiites and Sunnis has created a civil war in Iraq. Beginning this morning, MSNBC will refer to the fighting in Iraq as a civil war — a phrase the White House continues to resist. But after careful thought, MSNBC and NBC News decided over the weekend, the terminology is appropriate, as armed militarized factions fight for their own political agendas. We’ll have a lots more on the situation in Iraq and the decision to use the phrase, civil war.
Sort Comments By: Top Rated | Date
Yes it’s a civil war in Iraq caused by the Bush Regime occupation fiasco!
November 27th, 2006 at 11:40 amIs a what?????
November 27th, 2006 at 11:42 amI’m sure BushCo still refers to that messy 1950s conflict in Korea as a “police action.”
November 27th, 2006 at 11:45 amWow. It only took them like a hundred years to admit it.
November 27th, 2006 at 11:46 amIt only took them like a 100 years to admit it.
November 27th, 2006 at 11:47 amA fine example of the American people, through the election process, informing those who should be informing us.
November 27th, 2006 at 11:53 amDamned liberal media!
November 27th, 2006 at 11:53 amIsn’t it about time that the media whores begin telling the american people some “truth”….what about “truth in reporting” laws which have been consistently broken by these charlatans?
November 27th, 2006 at 11:58 amas i stated in the FAST thread… heard matt lauer declare it so on this morning’s opening today show story… he even read the definition for us all… so now it’s real… oh wait - fox has yet to concur…
November 27th, 2006 at 11:58 amfunny how since GWB has become a “lameduck” and the civil war is becoming so obvious to everyone that the MSM is now even deserting the sinking ship….along with the Rethugs. I think it’s pretty interesting to observe how rats jump when the time comes.
November 27th, 2006 at 11:59 amwhat happened to the klein thread?
November 27th, 2006 at 11:59 amwierd how that happens…
besides, who gives one iota about what FAUX news thinks or doesn’t think? They’ve “over” - the Fakeumentary was the beginning of their descent into the bowels of newscasting history and then the OJ pimpjob finished them off forever. They do get one kudo, however: they are the most “viewer blocked” channel in the country.
November 27th, 2006 at 12:01 pmOT:
MSNBC just had a “news pop” (a little factoid in the lower left hand corner of the screen) that said:
“NATO stands for North American Treaty Organization.”
November 27th, 2006 at 12:02 pmMust have been a problem with the Klein TP thread, since it got pulled?!
November 27th, 2006 at 12:06 pmwhat happened to the klein thread?
wierd how that happens…
Comment by katy
TP embraces defeat on the Joe Klein thread…
November 27th, 2006 at 12:08 pm“NATO stands for North American Treaty Organization.â€
Comment by bklyndemocrat
Oy.
November 27th, 2006 at 12:09 pmThe Baker Commission on Iraq is supposed to release their report this week, but nobody should pay attention to its findings, because Baker was the a-hole who helped Bush to get appointed president by Supreme Court in 2000! Baker himself should be indicted for treason and get prison term!
November 27th, 2006 at 12:15 pmCould these people make Jon Stewart’s job any easier?
November 27th, 2006 at 12:16 pmNow a spade is no longer a club.
November 27th, 2006 at 12:17 pmBush’s lack of brains & foreign policy damn near caused a civil war right here at home. That would have been quite a story for his Lie-brary.
November 27th, 2006 at 12:21 pmdamn near caused a civil war right here at home.
Comment by Zimzone — November 27, 2006 @ 12:21 pm
i personally think it’s happening, just coming to a slow boil… the next 2 years will be telling… i am very worried about how this country will ever heal, if ever… people generally don’t like to admit they’ve been “had” - and that’s what it will take… admit and move forward…
November 27th, 2006 at 12:29 pmAs usual the people in this nation are way ahead of the politicians and the media on what constitutes a civil war. We have been witnessing horrible acts and carnage on a daily basis for the last year. These clowns in the media have been doing their corporate bosses bidding for far too long.
The criteria for a civil war has always been 1) one or more factions fighting among themselves; and 2) deaths on a daily basis of at least 100 per day. This is the theory I was taught in college and 30 years later it still applies.
This Administration and the media think the american people are stupid–we are not, and they just got that meme earlier this month with the outcome of the elections.
November 27th, 2006 at 12:39 pmkaty,
I think about that, too. The rift in this country will never heal if we stay so polarized, and if the true believers don’t wake up.
November 27th, 2006 at 12:39 pmMSNBC and NBC have also decided to begin referring to GDumbya as “the lame-duck presidunce”. “After careful thought, MSNBC and NBC News decided over the weekend, the terminology is appropriate”, a network spokesman said.
November 27th, 2006 at 12:47 pmIt didn’t take too long for terrorists, emboldened by the election of dumbocrats, to drag the country into a civil war. I hope Pelosi and her fellow dumbocrats have the cojones to accept responsibility for this mess, but I doubt it.
November 27th, 2006 at 1:01 pmwho gives a flying piece of donkey dung that the MSM (aka media whores) have finally decided that it’s “safe” to tell the truth about something we’ve all know for at least two years?? while they continued to perpetuate the lie and the myth?? They’re as complicit as the administration in lying to the people. How dare they call themselves “legitimate news providers”? It’s a sham!
November 27th, 2006 at 1:02 pmBaker needs serious investigation…..his laundry list is a mile long. I think he’ll top the dems list. Wait until the investigation into the “stolen election” in Sarasota in 2000 (Katherine Harris and her cadre of crooks will sing) - and Baker will find himself smack dab in the midst of it all.
November 27th, 2006 at 1:04 pmIt didn’t take too long for terrorists, emboldened by the election of dumbocrats, to drag the country into a civil war. I hope Pelosi and her fellow dumbocrats have the cojones to accept responsibility for this mess, but I doubt it.
Comment by pa ubu
Damn, I hope you’re being sarcastic…
November 27th, 2006 at 1:04 pmOnly americans can be so woefully arrogant so as to believe that them publicly acknowledging the reality of the situation is some sort of validation or noble achievement.
It’s like the Iraqis haven’t been dying until YOU said that they’ve been dying.
It’s as if this heinous atrocity is not such until you decide to admit that it is.
What is wrong with you people? You won your election and act as if it is some sort of vindication. Like now everything is okay and america has regained its moral high-ground. But have you?
There are hundreds of thousands of murdered Iraqi CHILDREN, WOMEN, and MEN who have been horrifically disregarded and marginalized in your public debate about your demonic fiasco. Millions more Iraqis are enduring a living hell brought to them by you. Yet you do not even show once ounce of remorse. You have countless memorials to your dead service members who you, as a people, cast willingly into the role of murderer. Yet not a single memorial or acknowledgement to the 600,000 plus that YOU murdered and the millions more that are in effect being tortured by you.
But the murders continue and you act as if it is just a political game. The bloodbath goes on unchecked and all you worry about is whether or not WalMart is going to make its holiday sales forecast. A citizen puts up a Christmas wreath in the shape of the peace sign and she gets fined over it and some of her neighbors even call it “satanic”.
Are you really that detached? Have you lost interest again since it is not hundreds of americans being slaughtered every day? When you look in the mirror every morning do you see the evil that you are allowing yourself to be or do you just see some nip and tuck botoxed facade that you hope the world will accept as reality?
Here’s the newsflash: americans do not dictate reality and humility is not applied with make-up. If you had any dignity or honor at all you would not support your “corporations” this holiday season and instead would focus your efforts towards bringing some peace on earth. I fear, though, that instead you will just make certain that little johnny gets his PS3 and that you will gorge yourself on greed and avarice.
Meanwhile, more Iraqis get murdered in your name, by your soldiers, with your bombs and bullets.
Merry Christmas to you. And may the coal that you deserve in your stocking not come in the form of a Mosaic eye-for-an-eye.
May peace be with us all.
November 27th, 2006 at 1:07 pmYea!
So, now the LA Times, MSNBC and NBC News have all come to their frickin’ senses. The AP reported that Iraq was in a civil war over the weekend and my local republican paper, the OC Register actually reprinted the story without changing it to sectarian violence.
I think this bodes well for the global debate on Iraq. By that I mean that the US can finally join the debate on the Iraq war and what the solution is.
November 27th, 2006 at 1:07 pmDamn, I hope you’re being sarcastic…
Comment by Zooey — November 27, 2006 @ 1:04 pm
I doubt it. In fact you will most likely hear this refrain on Lush, O’Lielly, and Slannity.
November 27th, 2006 at 1:13 pmMeanwhile, more Iraqis get murdered in your name, by your soldiers, with your bombs and bullets.
Merry Christmas to you. And may the coal that you deserve in your stocking not come in the form of a Mosaic eye-for-an-eye.
May peace be with us all.
Comment by Humanist — November 27, 2006 @ 1:07 pm
Not ME-I live on the planet Krypton-and your planet is ?
November 27th, 2006 at 1:16 pm… In a further announcement, MSNBC and NBC will refer to George W. Bush more accurately as “the lying, retarded, drunken, antichrist, spawn of Satan.”
November 27th, 2006 at 1:17 pmLet’s see, O. J. Simpson is vile for getting away with two murders. So Bush must be at least three-hundred-thousand times as vile as O. J. Simpson for getting away with over six-hundred-thousand murders of Iraqis…
Will NBC and MSNBC be willing to report this little factoid on screen? I’m not holding my breath.
November 27th, 2006 at 1:20 pm25. Yeah, everything was going along so well up until that damned election. I mean we were fine just staying the course getting that mission accomplished to get them there so we don’t fight them here with the army you have not the army you want. No cut and run and that was a known known.
Too bad the Iraqis didn’t have the same PR push as Bush did.
November 27th, 2006 at 1:20 pmHumanist’s planet is Uranus.
November 27th, 2006 at 1:20 pm#32-Joefriday,
Wow, that’s really humorous. Glad that the inhabitants of this planet that you exploit and exterminate can provide you with such entertainment. Good for you.
Now I have a word for you - BOO! There, now knowing how absurdly reactionary the pathetically cowardly and morally bankrupt american public is, I figure that comment will cause you to collectively wet your pants and might help to resolve some of the extreme drought situations that you have going on.
There’s some humor for you. I Hope that helps to allow you to accept your miserable and pathetic existence, an existence that you have willingly chosen and accepted, by the way.
Good luck to you on that.
Peace.
November 27th, 2006 at 1:30 pmIn fact you will most likely hear this refrain on Lush, O’Lielly, and Slannity.
Joefriday, please remember that Rush, Bill and Sean’s talent is a gift from God, and when you make fun of them it’s like you’re mocking Christ. Not that a liberal would care about that.
November 27th, 2006 at 1:33 pm#36,
Yes, a peace sign is “satanic” and a person speaking the truth about your heinous actions must be ridiculed.
Merry Christmas to you. Oh, and when you go to open your gifts with your family on Christmas morn, keep in mind the 5 year old Iraqi girl who was just blown to bloody bits in your name.
Peace.
November 27th, 2006 at 1:35 pmHumanist, you have a noble cause but you regularly jump between personal responsibility and the actions of our govt. The vast majority of the deaths now occuring in Iraq is due to the civil war. They have hundreds of years of hatred welled up inside and it’s now over flowing. We (Americans) are responsible for popping that cork but short of sending 500,000 more troops into Iraq there is not much our govt can or will do to stem this. The solution has to come from within the region.
You jump from the individual to the masses with ease but your attacks are always personal.
I know you have “control your own destiny” as your mantra but you come off as pompous and any attempt to shed light is lost in your holier than thou attitude.
November 27th, 2006 at 1:36 pmIt didn’t take too long for terrorists, emboldened by the election of dumbocrats, to drag the country into a civil war. I hope Pelosi and her fellow dumbocrats have the cojones to accept responsibility for this mess, but I doubt it.
Comment by pa ubu — November 27, 2006 @ 1:01 pm
The persistence of the crack-addled reality-denying Bush worshippers never ceases to amaze me.
November 27th, 2006 at 1:44 pm[…] After the weekend’s horrific violence — which included Shiite militias dousing six Sunni civilians with kerosene and burning them alive — NBC News has taken the dramatic step of calling Iraq a “Civil War,” much to the chagrin of the White House. Watch the announcement of the change here (MSNBC) and here (Matt Lauer). – Tim Dickinson […]
November 27th, 2006 at 1:45 pmHumanist,
Can you please explain to whom you are addressing your posts? It can’t possibly be to the visitors at this site, or the American people as a whole, although it seems to read that way. Are all Americans one and the same person to you? How do you justify lumping 300 million people together and addressing them as they were President Bush?
November 27th, 2006 at 1:47 pm#40-hellinabucket,
I understand. However, and I say this in all sincerity, how would you recommend that I address this situation? The reality of the situation is definitely unpleasant, but it is the reality.
I agree that I come off as being “holier than thou” but that is only because I refuse to make excuses or shift blame on this. I, as an inhabitant of this planet, am complicit as well in this horrific crime because I have not been able to stop it. That troubles me deeply. Yet it seems that I am unique in that regard, and that is disturbing as well.
If my words offend, I cannot apologize unless I do slip into an unwarranted personal attack which, I admit, is very difficult to resist. But when it is just the truth, the reality of the situation, is it really a problem that someone’s sensitivities are offended because the reality is so perverse?
Excellent moniker by the way.
May peace be with us all.
November 27th, 2006 at 1:47 pmAre the major tv networks ahead in the game,or they are simply a year behind?!!
November 27th, 2006 at 1:48 pmEarlier posts talk about the fact that Rush will start (or has started) to blame the escalated civil war on the Democrats who presently are still the minority in both houses. I just wonder, with Rush cowardly admitting that he has been lying to his listeners for years (e.g., he was tired of carrying the water for the Republicans. Interesting that keeping the Republicans in power trumped his convictions/beliefs/honor), whether some of his listeners will ever trust what he says again. (of course, considering the zombie-like dittohead followers, they probably will continue saying worshiping anything the guy says. Interesting to me that he is allowed to talk about Dems being “elitist” when the guy makes approximately $96,000 per day!!! ) Quite a salary for just “carrying the water”.
November 27th, 2006 at 1:48 pmWe now have a pretty good calibration of how far behind the curve the MSM has gotten. Iraq has been in a state of civil war for about two years now.
November 27th, 2006 at 1:48 pmI honest to god question whether there are any right wing trolls on the boards at places like this and HuffPo or if it’s just us satirists. Maybe the entire Bush II administration is performance art that got out of control.
November 27th, 2006 at 1:49 pmplease remember that Rush, Bill and Sean’s talent is a gift from God, and when you make fun of them it’s like you’re mocking Christ.
Comment by pa ubu
Make sure your god watches over the 31, 185 kids dead in 9/11 due to hunger and desease, and over the man/woman that every 3 seconds dies of hunger in this world, a-hole. You are just like those Islam fundamentalists.
November 27th, 2006 at 1:49 pm“The vast majority of the deaths now occuring in Iraq is due to the civil war. They have hundreds of years of hatred welled up inside and it’s now over flowing. ”
Actually, for hundreds of years they’ve coexisted reasonably well. It’s been in the 3 year semi-anarchy which came about as the unintended result of the US invasion that the extremists have been provoking the heck out of everybody else around the clock. Three years formenting intercommunal strife without a government capable of stopping it and the occupying powers in denial. That’s what the White House is guilty of.
November 27th, 2006 at 1:49 pmReality has finally been acknowledged.
I guess it’s better late than never.
Let’s see how long it takes for the White House to smear NBC and accuse them of “emboldening the terrorists”, or something like that.
November 27th, 2006 at 1:51 pmI know you are going to hate me about this, but regarding the words of Humanist and the people offended by his words, US is a democracy. My opinion is that every country has the government it deserves.
Just for those who want to know, I live in Mexico City and I was born in Argentina, as if that info would invalid my statement.
November 27th, 2006 at 1:53 pmI agree that I come off as being “holier than thou†but that is only because I refuse to make excuses or shift blame on this.
Comment by Humanist
“My story is not a pleasant one….It is a story of nonsense and chaos, madness and dreams–like the lives of all men who stop deceiving themselves.” Herman Hesse
November 27th, 2006 at 1:57 pm#43-RealScientist,
Understood. But it was rather easy and convenient for you all to lump 26.5 million Iraqis together don’t you think? Since the WMD and “terrist” links were proven to be bogus, the mantra then turned to “Saddam was a bad guy” and “bringing freedom and democracy”. So, in effect, the entire Iraqi population is guilty of having had Saddam as a leader, a dictator.
Considering your structure of government, a representative democracy, and by virtue of your very name, the “United” States of America, how unreasonable it is to lump you all together?
Peace.
November 27th, 2006 at 1:58 pmfrom # 38 “Joefriday, please remember that Rush, Bill and Sean’s talent is a gift from God, and when you make fun of them it’s like you’re mocking Christ. Not that a liberal would care about that.”
Actually, I can’t think of a better way to mock Christ than to promote the Republican agenda.
November 27th, 2006 at 2:05 pmThey want to be on message when the new House leaders take roost.
November 27th, 2006 at 2:15 pmYou know. I been thinking. Advertising in this country (the US) has gotten way out of control. If we gave control of propaganda in Iraq over to a really successful advertising agency, we’d have that little civil war wrapped up in no time.
Think about it: The terrorists have been yammering 24/7 over there. Where has OUR propaganda gotten us? Is there even anyone over there preaching OUR ideas? If cigarrettes can make you cool, if Pringles can be made with “real potatoes” if a Hummer is fuel efficient and if Microsoft makes secure software, then we should at least be able to convince everyone over there to stop shooting.
November 27th, 2006 at 2:20 pmFriggin’ classic.
November 27th, 2006 at 2:28 pm#57-Swordsbane,
It took americans roughly 230 years to become so collectively gullible and, let’s say, intellectually challenged. It is premature for you to expect that you have been able to export that particular level of “democracy” to Iraq and that they have been able to achieve that magnitude of public incompetence.
May God allow that such remain unique to your current “civilization†(not acknowledging, of course, the stark similarities to the romans). But hey, only 28 more shopping days until, I don’t know, you start the counting all over again.
Peace.
November 27th, 2006 at 2:39 pmMay be some reporters from these major ‘not works…,sorry networks’ will dare now to ask the right questions when the picture is painted to them by officials that the Iraqis are dying from jubilation of freedom and liberty.
November 27th, 2006 at 2:39 pmThe wonder is why it took an eternity for MSNBC, NBC et al to get it right? The November elections wouldn’t have been the turning point or was it? Calling a spade by its truthful name is indeed becoming some journalistic art colored by dubious propaganda and self-interest.
November 27th, 2006 at 2:45 pmhey NBC, welcome to reality based reporting………
November 27th, 2006 at 2:48 pmI honest to god question whether there are any right wing trolls on the boards at places like this and HuffPo or if it’s just us satirists. Maybe the entire Bush II administration is performance art that got out of control.
Comment by pa ubu
pa ubu, the trolls have been rather scarce these days. We have a few who try very hard. Performance art or “reality,” we have to cut off their funding.
November 27th, 2006 at 2:52 pmHumanist
Just a bit of feedback. Your posts can be enlightening and thought-provoking. But they can also be highly just-plain-provoking when you resort to using variations of “you Americans”. “Americans” are highly diverse as a group and many of us are very progressive and critical of the path our country takes at times. However, we are still Americans and if you start bashing us in-toto, then, we are likely to ignore you, at best, and attack back if you continue. If you want to make points here and be heard, you might consider cooling the generic anti-American tone of your posts.
November 27th, 2006 at 3:10 pm#57-Swordsbane,
It took americans roughly 230 years to become so collectively gullible and, let’s say, intellectually challenged. It is premature for you to expect that you have been able to export that particular level of “democracy†to Iraq and that they have been able to achieve that magnitude of public incompetence.
May God allow that such remain unique to your current “civilization†(not acknowledging, of course, the stark similarities to the romans). But hey, only 28 more shopping days until, I don’t know, you start the counting all over again.
Peace.
Comment by Humanist — November 27, 2006 @ 2:39 pm
It’s not just the US. Look at what happened to Japan in only the sixty odd years since WWII… or Russia after the Soviets tanked. Time is not the only factor, and I have seen Windows in Saudi Arabia, so some people over there are already that gullible.
November 27th, 2006 at 3:10 pmFYI:
I talked to my mom in Germany yesterday. She said they had a big News show on TV stating that the US government will give citizenships to all illegal immigrants in case they join the armed forces and go to Iraq. How sick is that?
November 27th, 2006 at 3:19 pm(Weltspiegel, ARD, Sunday)
However, we are still Americans and if you start bashing us in-toto, then, we are likely to ignore you, at best, and attack back if you continue.
Comment by PatrioticLiberalChristian(PLC) — November 27, 2006 @ 3:10 pm
Naw. I’m an American citizen, born and raised here, and even I don’t particularly like Americans. Don’t get me wrong: I am proud to live in this country and proud of many of our accomplishments and of the ideals we TELL everyone we stand for. Advertising is NOT one of them, and neither is the Iraq war, or our peculiar brand of arrogance, or our rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth nationalism, or our general “screw the poor” attitude.
I’m not embarrassed to BE an American, but a too often I am embarrassed FOR America, because by and large, the country (the people AND the government) doesn’t have the sense to be embarrassed for themselves collectively. We have to do it on a more personal level.
November 27th, 2006 at 3:27 pm[…] Today, MSNBC and NBC News announced their decision to call Iraq a “civil war.” The Los Angeles Times has consistently used that term to describe the violence, and the Christian Science Monitor started to do the same today. […]
November 27th, 2006 at 3:30 pmSwordsbane
I, too, am often frustrated with my fellow Americans and our government. My point to Humanist is that regardless of that sentiment, they are still MY people and MY government and a non-American who gets “collectively personal” can push my patriotic button so that I don’t attend to any legitimate criticism. I think others may have a similar response. Often, I think those on the inside can criticize more effectively with passionate points than those on the outside can.
November 27th, 2006 at 3:43 pm[…] Ok, I broke down and started a new thread for updates. The original one is just getting waaaayyyy too long. If your just coming into this story go here to get all the facts on how a bogus Iraqi Police Officer has been supplying quotes to the AP. I found this transcript from MSNBC in which they refer to this bogus story as one reason why they have now decided to call the Iraq situation a “civil war”: (via ThinkProgress, a lefty site) The news from Iraq is becoming grimmer every day. Over the long holiday weekend bombings killed more than 200 people in a Shiite neighborhood in Baghdad. And six Sunni men were doused with kerosene and burned alive. Shiite muslims are the majority, but Sunnis like Saddam Hussein ruled that country until the war. Now, the battle between Shiites and Sunnis has created a civil war in Iraq. Beginning this morning, MSNBC will refer to the fighting in Iraq as a civil war — a phrase the White House continues to resist. But after careful thought, MSNBC and NBC News decided over the weekend, the terminology is appropriate, as armed militarized factions fight for their own political agendas. We’ll have a lots more on the situation in Iraq and the decision to use the phrase, civil war. […]
November 27th, 2006 at 3:52 pmSwordsbane
I, too, am often frustrated with my fellow Americans and our government. My point to Humanist is that regardless of that sentiment, they are still MY people and MY government and a non-American who gets “collectively personal†can push my patriotic button so that I don’t attend to any legitimate criticism. I think others may have a similar response. Often, I think those on the inside can criticize more effectively with passionate points than those on the outside can.
Comment by PatrioticLiberalChristian(PLC) — November 27, 2006 @ 3:43 pm
I like to think that all perspectives matter and being a citizen of this country or living in this country does not automatically give one a more ‘effective’ debating platform. Often, someone on the outside can see what goes on with clearer judgement than those on the inside. IF a point is valid, it will appear so on it’s own merits, not depending on who speaks it. My response to a non-American who sees something wrong with America is the same as to a fellow American who sees the same thing: What makes you say that?
Someone can only push your ‘patriotic button’ if you allow the fact that you were born here overrule the facts in a debate, and that is not fair to the opponent debating you or the issue you obviously feel so strongly about.
November 27th, 2006 at 4:15 pmPatrioticLiberalChristian(PLC),
I understand that my comments are often provocative and uncomfortable. However, I feel it is more due to the subject matter than my “style”, if you will.
I do oft get criticized for “lumping” together all americans. But really, how else are the actions of the USA to be viewed? When you act as a nation, then you are all responsible for those actions. I have often pointed out that there are no “republican” or “democratic” bullets, there are not separate armies or administrations. Whether you support the troops or not, or whether you voted republican or democratic, or whether you are liberal or conservative matter not to those you have inflicted great harm upon.
Growing up I looked upon world history and wondered how certain travesties were allowed to be carried out in full view. How did the world accommodate hitler? How were the crusades accepted? Who could have stood by while the Native Americans were subjected to genocide? How could a particular race of people, Africans, be so horrifically exploited and mistreated?
I determined that these atrocities were able to occur for so long because of a collective refusal to get involved or speak up or even by deflecting blame by use of a national or ethnic label. I was certain that with the “one world” environment in which we were going to naturally evolve, and by virtue of the greater and more timely awareness that the advancing technologies afforded us, that such travesties could not again occur.
But here we are again. Genocide happening all around us. The Middle East is becoming a bloody wasteland due to the greed and blood thirst of some powerful nations and people. Africa has become a WalMart of arms dealers with no end in sight. Yet a large portion of the world sits back and accepts it. The peoples and civilizations involved are somehow getting a free pass for one technical reason or another. Yet make no mistake, they are heinous atrocities and they can be stopped.
You are offended because I refuse to absolve you of your responsibility. However, is that unreasonable? I cannot sit silent and it is taking every ounce of my humanity to refrain from action. A key element that has aided me is that I know that to a certain extent any action would be purely retaliatory and vengeful. But, I would think that you’d have to agree that at a certain point action will be warranted out of self defense and self preservation. Is it to be allowed to reach that point? Have we not become more civilized and enlightened so as to reverse that course?
PLC, I am not insulting you personally, but I will call you to task collectively. And I have one parting thought for you - If you, americans, are as compassionate and civilized and “aware” as you claim to be, then why have the pathetically sparse and limited war protests stopped?
My slate is not clean and I can assure you that I do not stroll across water, but that doesn’t mean that I should forget the lessons of the past and categorically forgive the atrocities of the present. My conscience and very being will not allow me to just point the finger at someone else and then dismiss as irrelevant the horrific crimes and suffering that are needlessly occurring.
If you see it another way, or have some justification that can cut through the enormous collective guilt that is building up, I would listen. Yet keep in mind that there are 600,000 plus Iraqis who will never hear it, and that number keeps growing each and every moment that you, as a collective, refuse to stop what you are doing.
May peace be with us all.
November 27th, 2006 at 4:22 pm#43-RealScientist,
Understood. But it was rather easy and convenient for you all to lump 26.5 million Iraqis together don’t you think? Comment by Humanist — November 27, 2006 @ 1:58 pm
Man, you just don’t stop, do you? Try growing up.
November 27th, 2006 at 4:23 pmUS is a democracy. My opinion is that every country has the government it deserves.
Comment by Juan C — November 27, 2006 @ 1:53 pm
Really? A lot of us think it has become a corporate-fascist state with an illegitimate government.
November 27th, 2006 at 4:25 pmA lot of us think it has become a corporate-fascist state with an illegitimate government.
Comment by RealScientist
Sadly, the majority doesnt or the White House would be in flames.
November 27th, 2006 at 4:29 pmMore to add, PLC and RealScientist:
What if no american soldier had died in the War on Terror?
Would you be asking to redeploy if that had happened?
November 27th, 2006 at 4:32 pmWhat if no american soldier had died in the War on Terror?
Would you be asking to redeploy if that had happened?
Comment by Juan C — November 27, 2006 @ 4:32 pm
Juan, I had my anti-war sign up before the war even started. Many people I know were strongly opposed to this war before it ever started. Even if no American lives were lost, I and many other Americans would view the current situation in dire terms. I get the feeling that you don’t understand the U.S. election system well at all. If you did you would perhaps understand how difficult it is to displace the Republicans from power, with all the gerrymandering of Congressional districts. And that doesn’t even account for the effects of voter suppression, ballot box manipulation, and a host of other dirty tricks implemented by the Republicans to thwart the will of the majority.
November 27th, 2006 at 4:41 pmRealScientist,
You imply I am childish and immature. Please, then, act like a real scientist and challenge me on the facts, the reality in which we are all participants.
Age, nationality, social status, all of these are really not relevant nor do they color facts one way or another. So, are you a real scientist, or do you just play one on a blog? Are you an american or not? When your CNN actually shows you glimpses of Iraq (an increasingly rare situation), do you recognize the american soldiers or do you see clones like the Star Wars fantasy?
Lastly, explain how I am not correct in this assumption: american soldiers are the responsibility of the american military whose chief commander is the US president who is an elected public servant of the american public who is kept in check by the US congress, who is made up of duly elected representatives of the people.
Peace.
November 27th, 2006 at 4:42 pmJuan C,
I believe that the revealing question that, if answered honestly, would display the horrific humanistic hypocrisy is this: What if 6,800,000 americans (comparable percentage) of americans had died so far? Would americans still be so, tentative?
Peace.
November 27th, 2006 at 4:49 pmHumanist,
Yeah, I’m a real scientist.
Your pseudo-inductive absolutist reasoning reminds me of my seventh grade lunch group, where we budding young philosophers engaged in weighty debates on the important issues of the day.
November 27th, 2006 at 4:55 pmI get the feeling that you don’t understand the U.S. election system well at all.
Comment by RealScientist
Ive lived all my life in III world countries. I know everything about fraudulent elections and people´s ignorance when it comes to elect governments.
I had my anti-war sign up before the war even started. Many people I know were strongly opposed to this war before it ever started.
November 27th, 2006 at 4:56 pmIt takes courage to do that after 9/11. I have the feeling that almost all people here opposed the war since the beginning. It was not a personal question. It was rethorical; you cant negate the fact that there is a general, tacit opinion in the US which is american-centered. Thats why I asked.
I would like to point out that Humanist’s guilt-by-association hysteria is precisely the kind of absolutist thinking that leads to horrible outcomes like war and genocide.
November 27th, 2006 at 4:59 pmyou cant negate the fact that there is a general, tacit opinion in the US which is american-centered.
Yes, Americans are American-centric and it is a bad thing. But this defect doesn’t come close to explaining the terrible place to which Bush and his band of thugs has brought us, or the range of opinion about it here. America once was also a force for good in the world.
November 27th, 2006 at 5:03 pm#79 - Humanist,
November 27th, 2006 at 5:06 pm6.8 million, Hmm, that would certainly shorten the lines at Target and Walmart.
#80-RealScientist,
Excellent, although I see more babble and no actual response. So, what facts do I have wrong? If it is unreasonable for me to challenge you, as americans, about this heinous crime, who am I supposed to call? Palau?
And if it does come to the point where humanity has to rise up to beat back the murderous oppressors, are you going to wear a badge that says “NOT ME”? Who then is to blame? bush? And if so, where did bush get the army, and the funding, and the weaponry?
You shirk your responsibilities as an american and as a human and then have the audacity to attempt to deflect the guilt from your disingenuousness by lobbing lame insults at me. I pity you if that is your intention.
I find it ironic and revealing that you are so quick to criticize YOUR president for his aversion to facts yet you sprint from them with equal vigor and cowardice. Good luck to you on that.
Peace.
November 27th, 2006 at 5:10 pmAmerica once was also a force for good in the world.
Comment by RealScientist
Sorry to push it. Its not my intention to provoke but when did that happen?
November 27th, 2006 at 5:12 pmHumanist, why don’t you leave off with the “Peace” thing? You clearly don’t mean it - your hatred shows through very clearly.
November 27th, 2006 at 5:16 pmIve lived all my life in III world countries. I know everything about fraudulent elections and people´s ignorance when it comes to elect governments.
Comment by Juan C — November 27, 2006 @ 4:56 pm
Then you’d know better than to blame Mexico’s corrupt government on its people. Or Chileans for Pinochet’s tyrannical rule. Or Argentineans for Videla. You would be deeply misguided if you did so, as these governments imposed themself on their citizens.
Would you say all Mexicans are to blame for the sorry political state their country is in? Would you say all Chileans, Argentinians are dictatorial murderers by nature?
Somehow I doubt it. That line of reasoning is absurd. Yet you have no problem doing it towards Americans. Why?
November 27th, 2006 at 5:19 pm#84-Walt,
You stumble across an odd irony there. You see, if WalMart were facing the prospect of losing 6.8 million customers they would go to the ends of the earth to keep that from happening. So in the society of which you refer to in jest, the reality is that corporate greed is more reliable a force than the theoretical compassionate humanity that we are all supposedly endowed with at birth.
Interesting point to ponder. Perhaps I should stop speaking to you all and instead should focus on convincing all Iraqis to start shopping at WalMart.com. Thank you for the suggestion. I never thought to use your own greed against you. Brilliant.
Peace.
November 27th, 2006 at 5:20 pm#87-Dancer,
I have pity for you that “Peace” so offends. Do you live in Colorado? I think I have heard of your neighbor.
But be sure to say the phrase while glad-handing your friends in your “church”. That is, of course, before you start preaching your hatred towards Muslims, and Arabs, and Chinese, and Koreans, and Venezuelans, and Cubans, and Gays, and the impoverished, and them doggone Black folk.
Good luck to you on that.
Peace.
November 27th, 2006 at 5:25 pm#88-Gregor,
I am not responding for Juan C but I do need some clarity. So are you really excusing yourself because your government has devolved below Third World status and that of banana republics?
Have you tried that one out on your WWII generation? Just curious.
Peace.
November 27th, 2006 at 5:30 pmyour government has devolved below Third World status and that of banana republics?
Comment by Humanist — November 27, 2006 @ 5:30 pm
I care little what you think of Mexico, Chile, or Argentina. Those countries are certainly not “banana republics”, and their peoples are not morally, intellectually wanting in any way.
Try not to speak about them with such contempt. They are certainly able to show you a thing or two.
November 27th, 2006 at 5:41 pmOh dear, Humanist, looks like my comment really got to you there.
November 27th, 2006 at 5:42 pmI like to think I do my bit to strive for peace and unity, but in your comments I sense the hatred of one who fuels divisions that lead to strife. Peace does not offend me, your hatred offends me.
#93-Dancer,
I suspect I “hate” americans as much as you “hate” Iraqis. However, no americans have perished due to my sword today. Can you say the same about Iraqis? It is very easy to talk a good game, but actions are the only reality. My actions are not compromising my conscience. I wonder if you can say the same.
So, accuse me of being a “hater”, or call me whatever name you wish. However when I point out that you are a murderer, there is a mountain of facts that such a claim is based upon. All that I ask is that you stop. I beg you to stop. You can hurl at me any insults that you wish if it will cause you to stop the murder.
May peace be with us all.
November 27th, 2006 at 5:56 pm#92-Gregor,
I actually praise each and every one of those countries. They have all been continuously improving their human rights records. That is a phenomenal achievement and should be recognized and applauded.
By the way, how is the US human rights record going? Just curious.
Peace.
November 27th, 2006 at 5:59 pmFunny how Muhammad always seems to go to the mountain.
November 27th, 2006 at 6:07 pmJust for the sake of interest, do the Sunni insurgents who have tried so hard to foment this “civil war” bear any responsibility for the mayhem in your equation? Or do Americans alone shoulder that one?
By the way, how is the US human rights record going? Just curious.
Comment by Humanist — November 27, 2006 @ 5:59 pm
You really are hell-bent on a confrontation, aren’t you?
I am also curious, how is your country’s human rights record as of late? And since Iraq is a catastrophe of global proportions, what have you done to stop the carnage in Iraq? Have you written letters to your government, both local and national? Have you participated in protests picketing the US embassy in your country/city? Have you helped the electoral campaign of a candidate that opposes the US’ imperial ways?
Finally, why do call Latin American countries “banana republics”? Don’t you think those nations are worthy of respect?
November 27th, 2006 at 6:09 pmSorry to push it. Its not my intention to provoke but when did that happen?
Comment by Juan C — November 27, 2006 @ 5:12 pm
WW II.
Don’t get me wrong, the U.S. has done mountains of bad stuff with its jingoistic foreign policy. Latin America has gotten screwed again and again by our policies, particularly during the Cold War.
November 27th, 2006 at 6:13 pmIf a radical Islamist troll were posting, he/she might scan very much like “Humanist”.
November 27th, 2006 at 6:16 pmGregor,
I have concluded that Humanist is just a troll of a different sort, determined to pick a fight. No sense in trying to reason with it.
November 27th, 2006 at 6:17 pmAmerica once was also a force for good in the world.
Comment by RealScientist
Sorry to push it. Its not my intention to provoke but when did that happen?
Comment by Juan C — November 27, 2006 @ 5:12 pm
The last time America was a force for good was WWII, and even now, we’re arguing over weather the government let Pearl Harbour happen or not. Still, it was the last war we fought on the right side for the right reasons.
I also think it’s sad that our finest moments were in war, but there you go.
I suppose it depends on what you mean by “A force for good” I’m sure there are a lot of people that will say that simply being an economic leader is a “force for good” but I don’t buy it. Simple wealth (or the spreading around of the same) doesn’t make someone great. Who is greater: the wealthy businessman who has $20 million and gives $2 million to the poor, or the person who only has $3,000 yet gives up $2,000? Sure the $2 million does more good, but how do you judge their character?
The simple fact is that as much as America can be credited with doing, we can do so much more, and we choose not to. We want to bring peace, but not if it means giving up something we think belongs to us. We want to help out the developing countries, but not if it means making life a little harder here at home. We want to cure disease, but not if it means sending drugs overseas and giving them away. We want to clean up the environment, but not if it means higher energy prices. We want the world to come together for the good of everyone, IF we’re the one’s calling the shots. Hey. We’re the best country in the world. Everyone should be more like us. If there’s one thing I think America desperately needs more than anything else, it is a serious lesson in humility.
November 27th, 2006 at 6:18 pm#96-Dancer,
A murder is a murder whether it is committed by a demon or by the pope. Wouldn’t you agree.
And I understand what you are saying about the responsibilities of the natives but isn’t that really blaming the moon for its light? I believe that the violence and instability in the region is a direct result of environment created by your invasion and subsequent occupation. And, of course, we could take a stroll through the region’s history and see where british and american policies and involvement have been substantial. But is that really the point?
I put forth that the killing will not cease until someone involved, in this case the instigators are the prime choice, stop killing. “Peace” is never achieved by war, peace always overcomes war. Do you see it differently?
Peace.
November 27th, 2006 at 6:27 pmIslam offers 3 choices: convert, submit and pay jizya, fight. Trotsky may have said it best: “You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in you”.
November 27th, 2006 at 6:29 pmSo, just in this thread I have been called the following:
- A hater
- An immature child
- A troll
- Comparable to a radical Islamist (because Christians are “saints†and Muslims are “demonsâ€)
- Provocateur
And those are only the things that were typed. Who knows what was uttered under one’s breath.
Yet if you go through my comments, the theme and message is consistent. I challenge americans for their collective responsibility for the Iraq invasion/occupation/crime. I plead for you to stop it. I beg for peace. And I will not allow blame to be shifted to the victim or others.
No one will challenge me on the facts. No one.
But somehow I am the troll. I am the bad man who is the evil of your day. Very interesting.
And you wonder why the Iraq atrocity and crime just keeps going. According to many here, it seems that it is my fault. How, I don’t know. But it could not be the responsibility of the USA and its citizens. Allah forbid, of course.
May peace be with us all.
November 27th, 2006 at 6:41 pmI can’t see that you’ve offered any facts at all, just a lot of snarky venom, self-hating opinion and a burning desire to blame it all on America. If and when America pulls out, who will you blame for the Iraqi moonbeams killing each other then?
November 27th, 2006 at 6:48 pmBut somehow I am the troll. I am the bad man who is the evil of your day. Very interesting.
Comment by Humanist — November 27, 2006 @ 6:41 pm
Can we add crybaby to the list? How about self-righteous drama queen?
Humanist, you are full of sh*t. You are here attacking anything that moves with your everyone-is-guilty-as-Hitler-by-association message. You put words in our mouths, you tell us what we say, what we believe, what we do, and what we think, even though you don’t know sh*t about any of that.
November 27th, 2006 at 6:49 pmWay to go NBC!
November 27th, 2006 at 6:50 pm“Peace†is never achieved by war, peace always overcomes war.
November 27th, 2006 at 6:56 pmThat’s really priceless, Humanist. You have definitely made my day with that one.
#105-Dancer,
How about we start by the USA getting out of Iraq and stopping its killing crusade (ie; not just to re-deploy its forces to Iran) and then I will gladly debate and discuss with you any and all violence and heinous atrocities that rise up in the absence of the murders carried out by your agents via the sanction of your government (and, by extension, the american people).
How about we start there? To paraphrase mr. kerry back when he had more recognizable honor, who is going to be the first to stop killing in a war that was a mistake?
May peace be with us all.
November 27th, 2006 at 6:59 pmWhich will you choose, Humanist, when the Islamists come calling? Convert, submit or fight?
November 27th, 2006 at 7:07 pmPerhaps you’ve chosen already.
Islam offers 3 choices: convert, submit and pay jizya, fight. Trotsky may have said it best: “You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in youâ€.
Comment by Dancer — November 27, 2006 @ 6:29 pm
That is similar to the choices Christianity offered heathens not too long ago. Keep in mind, strictly speaking, Islam is a comparitavley young religion.
And also I suggest that if you’re going to speak with any authority about what Islam is or isn’t, you better have a copy of the Koran handy.
Before we invaded, Iraq had no terrorist elements inside it’s borders. If it did, it was a small element ruthlessly hunted so much so that it didn’t register on any intelligence radar in the entire world. The United States government, and because of it’s complete lack of demand for accountability, the majority of it’s population is directly responsible not only for introducing terrorists to Iraq but for the current civil war there now, for the deaths of American soldiers and for the deaths of a few hundred thousand civilians. If no one here disagrees with that statement…..
Cut Humanist some slack.
November 27th, 2006 at 7:08 pmCan we add crybaby to the list? How about self-righteous drama queen?
Comment by RealScientist — November 27, 2006 @ 6:49 pm
Excuse me? How do you get ‘crybaby” from that? How about you answer his questions and let those answers determine who knows what they’re talking about and who’s ignorant?
November 27th, 2006 at 7:11 pm#89 - Humanist,
November 27th, 2006 at 7:16 pmPerhaps you should read Jonathan Swift. Do you by any chance remember “A Modest Proposal”? You must really learn to think!
#106-RealScientist,
Yes, you are right. I’m a cry-baby and drama queen. I’m full of sh*t and am completely off base.
Let me see if I have the “party line” down. Those responsible for the Iraq atrocity are limited to a handful of evil people. These evil people executed a coup and took control of your government. Then they stole your army of clones to do their evil bidding (murder, torture, rape, larceny, etc…). And they put the cost of the whole thing on your credit card, which it will take generations to pay off.
All of this occurred while the people, who everyone knows are just good folk to their very core, sat around helpless to stop it. All their elected representatives were implanted with chips that caused them to go along with this crime. The people cried out, but to no avail. Their evil overlord was just too powerful. It was a horrific ordeal.
But, thank Allah, the people finally regained power and have beaten back the evil overlord. However, they must keep killing and torturing and raping and robbing the Iraqi people until someone, God please send us someone, who can tell you exactly how to stop.
And I’m the drama queen.
May peace be with us all. In spite of ourselves, it would seem.
November 27th, 2006 at 7:17 pm#113-Walt,
I am not familiar with the work in which you speak but I will look into it. And I appreciate the encouragement to continue my quest for knowledge, wisdom, and enlightenment. At least I think that is what you were saying.
Peace.
November 27th, 2006 at 7:22 pmExcuse me? How do you get ‘crybaby†from that? How about you answer his questions and let those answers determine who knows what they’re talking about and who’s ignorant?
Comment by Swordsbane — November 27, 2006 @ 7:11 pm
WTF? Who are you to tell me to answer someone else’s questions? And just what questions am I supposed to answer? Humanist’s posts are filled with accusations and brimming with straw men. Are you actually reading them? Read 114, for example, where I am told the party line I and all other Americans have supposedly bought into. I never said these things. Not only that, I have never seen a post at this site claiming this party line.
November 27th, 2006 at 7:25 pm[…] News agencies start officially calling the Iraq conflict a “civil war”. However, the white house still denies that. There are a lot of political considerations in the use of that term. And politics play as big a part as anything in war, especially in middle eastern conflicts […]
November 27th, 2006 at 7:47 pmHumanist, I consider you none of the attributes you’ve been labeled with today on this string. I do think you do not understand how the American system really works. Indeed, we are “supposed” to be a representative Democracy…but over 60% of Americans are opposed to the occupation in Iraq…yet we are still there. Are we to then to all be collectively punished because, though in the majority, we have no control over our own government any longer? Are you aware that the U.S. is rapidly becoming a police state, and that those of us who post on this, and similar boards, are probably in more danger than we even realize or can acknowledge?
Humanist, I hear what’s underneath your words and statements..no matter what the tenor. Anguish. My friend, I share that with you.
November 27th, 2006 at 7:54 pm#116-RealScientist,
Thank you for the challenge finally. Here goes:
Those responsible for the Iraq atrocity are limited to a handful of evil people.
Yes it’s a civil war in Iraq caused by the Bush Regime occupation fiasco!
I’m sure BushCo still refers to that messy 1950s conflict in Korea as a “police action.â€
These evil people executed a coup and took control of your government.
isn’t it about time that the media whores begin telling the american people some “truthâ€â€¦.what about “truth in reporting†laws which have been consistently broken by these charlatans?
The Baker Commission on Iraq is supposed to release their report this week, but nobody should pay attention to its findings, because Baker was the a-hole who helped Bush to get appointed president by Supreme Court in 2000! Baker himself should be indicted for treason and get prison term!
i personally think it’s happening, just coming to a slow boil… the next 2 years will be telling… i am very worried about how this country will ever heal, if ever… people generally don’t like to admit they’ve been “had†- and that’s what it will take… admit and move forward…
Then they stole your army of clones to do their evil bidding (murder, torture, rape, larceny, etc…).
Let’s see, O. J. Simpson is vile for getting away with two murders. So Bush must be at least three-hundred-thousand times as vile as O. J. Simpson for getting away with over six-hundred-thousand murders of Iraqis
Yes, Americans are American-centric and it is a bad thing. But this defect doesn’t come close to explaining the terrible place to which Bush and his band of thugs has brought us, or the range of opinion about it here. America once was also a force for good in the world.
All of this occurred while the people, who everyone knows are just good folk to their very core, sat around helpless to stop it. All their elected representatives were implanted with chips that caused them to go along with this crime. The people cried out, but to no avail. Their evil overlord was just too powerful.
funny how since GWB has become a “lameduck†and the civil war is becoming so obvious to everyone that the MSM is now even deserting the sinking ship….along with the Rethugs. I think it’s pretty interesting to observe how rats jump when the time comes.
who gives a flying piece of donkey dung that the MSM (aka media whores) have finally decided that it’s “safe†to tell the truth about something we’ve all know for at least two years?? while they continued to perpetuate the lie and the myth?? They’re as complicit as the administration in lying to the people. How dare they call themselves “legitimate news providers� It’s a sham!
Are all Americans one and the same person to you? How do you justify lumping 300 million people together and addressing them as they were President Bush?
But, thank Allah, the people finally regained power and have beaten back the evil overlord. However, they must keep killing and torturing and raping and robbing the Iraqi people until someone, God please send us someone, who can tell you exactly how to stop.
I think this bodes well for the global debate on Iraq. By that I mean that the US can finally join the debate on the Iraq war and what the solution is.
A fine example of the American people, through the election process, informing those who should be informing us.
This Administration and the media think the american people are stupid–we are not, and they just got that meme earlier this month with the outcome of the elections.
After the weekend’s horrific violence — which included Shiite militias dousing six Sunni civilians with kerosene and burning them alive — NBC News has taken the dramatic step of calling Iraq a “Civil War,†much to the chagrin of the White House. Watch the announcement of the change here (MSNBC) and here (Matt Lauer). – Tim Dickinson […]
Three years formenting intercommunal strife without a government capable of stopping it and the occupying powers in denial. That’s what the White House is guilty of.
So, RealScientist, there is where I got the “party lineâ€. And those are just a few examples from this thread. Most of the excuses have been going on from the beginning.
Challenge me on facts, I will show them to you. I am sorry that the truth so frightens you but the “right†thing and the “easy†thing are rarely one in the same. And you can thank my grandmother for that wisdom.
May peace be with us all.
November 27th, 2006 at 8:02 pmimpeachcheneythenbush:
November 27th, 2006 at 8:02 pmMy friend, you simply do not know what you are talking about.
#
impeachcheneythenbush:
My friend, you simply do not know what you are talking about.
Comment by Dancer — November 27, 2006 @ 8:02 pm
November 27th, 2006 at 8:17 pmDancer, rather than telling me I don’t know what I’m talking about, it would be more useful to counter my argument. It’s called debate.
#115 - Humanist,
November 27th, 2006 at 8:25 pmI can not imagine anyone who has failed to read Johathan Swift’s essays. Your mind must be pure mush. Here’s a pointer to a copy - it describes a method of controlling population growth in Ireland. I first read it in the 7th or 8th grade. I would guess that education was a bit more rigorous in the 1950’s.
Oh well, no answer in 30 minutes. So I’ll just post the below as examples of Dancer’s debating skills. Looks like a troll to me! Iraqi “moonbeams?”
#
Humanist, why don’t you leave off with the “Peace†thing? You clearly don’t mean it - your hatred shows through very clearly.
Comment by Dancer — November 27, 2006 @ 5:16 pm
#
Oh dear, Humanist, looks like my comment really got to you there.
I like to think I do my bit to strive for peace and unity, but in your comments I sense the hatred of one who fuels divisions that lead to strife. Peace does not offend me, your hatred offends me.
Comment by Dancer — November 27, 2006 @ 5:42 pm
#
Funny how Muhammad always seems to go to the mountain.
Just for the sake of interest, do the Sunni insurgents who have tried so hard to foment this “civil war†bear any responsibility for the mayhem in your equation? Or do Americans alone shoulder that one?
Comment by Dancer — November 27, 2006 @ 6:07 pm
#
If a radical Islamist troll were posting, he/she might scan very much like “Humanistâ€.
Comment by Dancer — November 27, 2006 @ 6:16 pm
#
Islam offers 3 choices: convert, submit and pay jizya, fight. Trotsky may have said it best: “You may not be interested in war, but war is interested in youâ€.
Comment by Dancer — November 27, 2006 @ 6:29 pm
#
I can’t see that you’ve offered any facts at all, just a lot of snarky venom, self-hating opinion and a burning desire to blame it all on America. If and when America pulls out, who will you blame for the Iraqi moonbeams killing each other then?
Comment by Dancer — November 27, 2006 @ 6:48 pm
#
“Peace†is never achieved by war, peace always overcomes war.
That’s really priceless, Humanist. You have definitely made my day with that one.
Comment by Dancer — November 27, 2006 @ 6:56 pm
#
Which will you choose, Humanist, when the Islamists come calling? Convert, submit or fight?
Perhaps you’ve chosen already.
Comment by Dancer — November 27, 2006 @ 7:07 pm
#
impeachcheneythenbush:
My friend, you simply do not know what you are talking about.
Comment by Dancer — November 27, 2006 @ 8:02 pm
November 27th, 2006 at 8:48 pm#122-WaltTheMan,
Thank you for the link. And though at times my thoughts swirl like a tornado, my mind does not feel like “mush”. Although, when I imbibe in too much drink, I do get somewhat the sensation of which you speak. But I would think that “stewed” would be a more appropriate description.
Now, I have actually read Gulliver’s Travels, but it has been quite some time. For me it was the 60’s (early 70’s). Did they have books back in the 50’s or were they still stone tablets? Which may explain why homework was much more taxing then.
I will attempt to read “A modest Proposal” as soon as possible. Any satirist that would write about eating babies definitely warrants further review. Thanks for the tip.
Peace.
November 27th, 2006 at 9:39 pm#124 - Humanist,
November 27th, 2006 at 10:54 pmI have every work of man since Hammurabi. Limited education, but rewarding.
[…] Curt also tracked down the decision by NBC and MSNBC to use the phrase “civil war” to describe the problems in Iraq, which he cited from the liberal site Think Progress: The news from Iraq is becoming grimmer every day. Over the long holiday weekend bombings killed more than 200 people in a Shiite neighborhood in Baghdad. And six Sunni men were doused with kerosene and burned alive. Shiite muslims are the majority, but Sunnis like Saddam Hussein ruled that country until the war. Now, the battle between Shiites and Sunnis has created a civil war in Iraq. Beginning this morning, MSNBC will refer to the fighting in Iraq as a civil war — a phrase the White House continues to resist. But after careful thought, MSNBC and NBC News decided over the weekend, the terminology is appropriate, as armed militarized factions fight for their own political agendas. We’ll have a lots more on the situation in Iraq and the decision to use the phrase, civil war. […]
November 27th, 2006 at 11:16 pm#126 should read:
November 27th, 2006 at 11:29 pm#124 - Humanist,
I have read every work of man since Hammurabi. Limited education, but rewarding.
Sorry - Walt
[…] Today, MSNBC and NBC News announced their decision to call Iraq a “civil war.†The Los Angeles Times has consistently used that term to describe the violence, and the Christian Science Monitor started to do the same today. […]
November 28th, 2006 at 12:02 amHumanist, your post #119 doesn’t make much sense on any level. I suppose you imagine your boldfaced comments to somehow paraphrase the quotes in italics, but they miss the mark wide, to the point of being non-sequitors. You claim to know what everyone else thinks, but obviously you don’t. You relentlessly misrepresent what people say, build silly straw men, and view the world in false dichotomies that are as ridiculous as Bush’s stay the course vs. cut and run. You are a tedious, uninteresting bore, full of yourself with nothing to say. I suspect that you don’t get enough attention at home or at work, so you come here to prance about and annoy others. Bad attention is better than no attention for the bored and lonely child.
November 28th, 2006 at 12:15 amSomehow I doubt it. That line of reasoning is absurd. Yet you have no problem doing it towards Americans. Why?
Comment by Gregor Samsa
Sorry for the delay. Please, dont get offended. People, like you and me are very sensitive when it comes to nationalism, I guess thats why propaganda works so much. I am pretty much the same as anyone here, if somebody says something bad about my country I would jump right to defend it.
Anyway. Your line of reasoning is bad. I blame us for the government we have and had, for being ignorant, for being racists, for being lazy, idiots consuming I world garbage. If those countries/examples you gave me had the whole population convinced that the only way to overcome tiranny, dictatorship or other internal/external impositions, there hadnt happened. Nobody can stop the people when they are organized; thats why americans defeated the english, thats why soviets defeated the germans. Not even US touches Cuba because cubans are organized. One example: there was a terrible earthquake here in Mexico in 9/19/1985. Thousands of dead people and hundreds of buildings down. Due to the inability of the government to provide the urgent measures to rescue people, organize brigades, etc., the people began organizing by themselves logistics, health services, communication networks and so on. If that same week the people would have realized that they could do whatever the hell they wanted in terms of achieving political or economical goals, I think they wouldnt have done it, because it must be so damn exhausting to get involved in everything.
So, we the people are guilty for the governments we have.
November 28th, 2006 at 1:35 am[…] AW: 3. Weltkrieg 2011 ?! Zitat: […]
November 28th, 2006 at 2:52 am[…] An article in today’s New York Times carries the headline, “Bush Blames Al Qaeda for Rising Iraq Violence.” Surely this is a sign of how far we have yet to go for this administration to wrap its feeble collection of minds around the problem of the Iraqi civil war. Mislabeling the civil war in Iraq sectarian violence is not the same error as crediting it to foreign terrorists who represent a minisc