Bush Kneecaps Iraq Study Group: There Will Be No ‘Graceful Exit From Iraq’
Bush Kneecaps Iraq Study Group: There Will Be No ‘Graceful Exit From Iraq’
The Iraq Study Group will release its recommendations on Dec. 6. The New York Times reports that the commission will “will call for a gradual pullback of the 15 American combat brigades now in Iraq but stop short of setting a firm timetable for their withdrawal.”
Today, in a joint press conference with Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, Bush sought to dismiss the commission’s recommendations before they have been officially released. Bush said, “I know there’s a lot of speculation that these reports in Washington mean there’s going to be some kind of graceful exit out of Iraq. We’re going to stay in Iraq to get the job done.” Watch it:
Transcript:
BUSH: So we’ll be in Iraq until the job is complete, at the request of a sovereign government elected by the people. I know there’s a lot of speculation that these reports in Washington mean there’s going to be some kind of graceful exit out of Iraq. We’re going to stay in Iraq to get the job done, so long as the government wants us there.
We want the people of Iraq to live in a free society. It’s in our interests. In my judgment, if we were to leave before the job is done, it would only embolden terrorists, it would only embolden the extremists. It would dash the hopes of millions of people who want to live in a free society, just like the 12 million people who voted in the Iraqi election. They want to live in a free society. And we support this government, because the government understands it was elected by the people. And Prime Minister Maliki is working hard to overcome the many obstacles in the way to a peaceful Iraq, and we want to help him.
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"There will be no graceful exit from Iraq". Was that a Freudian slip? Any one with an I.Q. barely above 100 knows that the exit from Iraq will be "disgraceful".
November 30th, 2006 at 9:57 am"To get the job done". Uh, what is this job? You're doin' a heck of a job Georgie!
November 30th, 2006 at 9:58 amAnd Rumsfeld will remain the Sec. of Def.
November 30th, 2006 at 9:58 am“I know there’s a lot of speculation that these reports in Washington mean there’s going to be some kind of graceful exit out of Iraq. We’re going to stay in Iraq to get the job done.â€
Heh heh, Ah don't do nothin' graceful, heh heh. F*ck the troops, ah do what ah want, heh heh.
November 30th, 2006 at 10:01 amI know there’s a lot of speculation that these reports in Washington mean there’s going to be some kind of graceful exit out of Iraq. We’re going to stay in Iraq to get the job done, so long as the government wants us there.
What better way to say "Impeach me."
November 30th, 2006 at 10:01 amWe want the people of Iraq to live in a free society. It’s in our interests.
What about the people of Iraq, King George the Incurious? Remember them? What about their interests?
November 30th, 2006 at 10:02 amAnd Prime Minister Maliki is working hard to overcome the many obstacles in the way to a peaceful Iraq, and we want to help him.
Prime Minister Maliki, from backstage: Please! Stop helping!
November 30th, 2006 at 10:03 amNo graceful entrance and no graceful exit.
Apply this to all:
November 30th, 2006 at 10:05 amBush
Iraq War
Rumsfeld
Republican Congress
Pelosi are you listening? This is why this man must be impeached. We must rid our nation of this PNC/Straussian/Neo-Con Cancer. And when we're done with Bush with move on to Cheney.
I hope Waxman and Conyers are ready to begin investigating every single criminal act.
Bush is a Scopath. Sociopaths and can't be dealt/reasoned with. Treatment almost always fails. A socipath is a person without a conscience:
Antisocial Personality Disorder is chronic, beginning in adolescence
and continuing throughout adulthood. There are ten general
symptoms:
-not learning from experience
-no sense of responsibility
-inability to form meaningful relationships
-inability to control impulses
-lack of moral sense
-chronically antisocial behavior
-no change in behavior after punishment
-emotional immaturity
-lack of guilt
-self-centeredness
People with this disorder may exhibit criminal behavior. They may
not work. If they do work, they are frequently absent or may quit
suddenly. They do not consider other people's wishes, welfare or
rights. They can be manipulative and may lie to gain personal
pleasure or profit. They may default on loans, fail to provide child
support, or fail to care for their dependents adequately. High risk
sexual behavior and substance abuse are common. Impulsiveness,
failure to plan ahead, aggressiveness, irritability, irresponsibility,
and a reckless disregard for their own safety and the safety of
others are traits of the antisocial personality.
Socioeconomic status, gender, and genetic factors play a role.
November 30th, 2006 at 10:07 amMales are more likely to be antisocial than females. Those from
lower socioeconomic groups are more susceptible. A family history
of the disorder puts one at higher risk.
WE need more writers to help on this. Get the word out!
November 30th, 2006 at 10:07 am"Iraq has ties to Al-Queida"
"Iraq has WMDs"
"Cheney and Rumsfeld will stick it out until the end of my term."
"Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job."
"The Terrorists want a change in democratic leadership in America."
and now....
"We're staying to get the job done."
Tell me why this should mean ANYTHING to us?
November 30th, 2006 at 10:09 amwonder who the bushwhore's work for? they are anti american
November 30th, 2006 at 10:11 amand their executive branch are actively involved in treason. I'm guessing they are agents of a foreign power. what's new
Tell me why this should mean ANYTHING to us?
Comment by Swordsbane
Those things mean something, Swordsbane, just nothing good. They also mean we need to get that idiot out of there before he destroys the whole world.
November 30th, 2006 at 10:12 amnot learning from experience
-no sense of responsibility
-inability to form meaningful relationships
-inability to control impulses
-lack of moral sense
-chronically antisocial behavior
-no change in behavior after punishment
-emotional immaturity
-lack of guilt
-self-centeredness
Wait wait wait... he's not antisocial. I hear he's pleasant to talk to... kind of like a retarded child. Then again, maybe Cheney's using ths shock collar again to keep him "playing nice"
November 30th, 2006 at 10:14 am"Of course there will be no graceful exit, we'll do it exactly the same way we did it from the roof of the US embassy in Saigon 30 years ago....."
November 30th, 2006 at 10:17 am"go it alone" Bush.
November 30th, 2006 at 10:17 amSwordsbane,
GWB's exchange with Jim Webb (ThinkFast thread 11/29), that was antisocial.
These freaks can fake it, you know.
November 30th, 2006 at 10:17 amI don't know...there's nothing quite as serene as a helicopter overladen with desperate people barely making it off the roof of the US embassy in Baghdad just as the insurgents break down the gate on the back of an Iranian tank...
November 30th, 2006 at 10:19 amIn Barack Obama's book he relates the instance where Emperor Zero whipped around to get a glob of hand sanitizer, after shaking Obama's hand in a receiving line, making a crack about "catching a cold or something".
November 30th, 2006 at 10:23 amThat is anti-social, it is clearly mean spirited, and I doubt if KKKarl gave him the idea..........
And scenes shot in sepia tones, in slow motion, and with no sound... of the highway to the Bagdhad airport will have a horrid grace to them............
November 30th, 2006 at 10:25 amI suspect there will be no graceful exit from the White House, either. I can picture him being dragged out by the ankles, screaming, grabbing at anything within reach, having his fingers pried loose from antique furniture. "No! No-o-o-o-o!!!" " Laura... Mommy... Daddy... Barney!!! Help!!!!!"
November 30th, 2006 at 10:26 amThis is beyond what we should/can accept. He's endangering all of us.............in serious serious ways. He is a rogue president gone wild. Our lives and futures are at stake. We, the American people, have to remove him and his thugs .....and SOON.
November 30th, 2006 at 10:26 amDear George & Dick,
You're fired!
Dear Congress,
Kindly remove George Bush and Dick Cheney from the office of President of the U.S. since they have consistently demonstrated their incompetence and indifference to the will of We The People.
Thanks.
November 30th, 2006 at 10:33 amFlash!!
November 30th, 2006 at 10:36 am"Elmer" Cheney was spotted shopping in a south Georgia sporting goods store yesterday afternoon....... seems like he gave us the slip there in Talahassee......
Are ya stocking up on ammo, Unka Deadeye?
Or getting ready for a little war action?
Do they make 'scopes for yer fancy shotguns? Might help ya see what yer shootin' at a little better.......
Maybe you just needed a new Hot Seat to keep your sorry ass warm when you get pooped out there long about 4 in the afternoon..........
He is mad. And he has lost whatever sense he might have had. He is not a dictator and the new democratically controlled congress will have to remind him of that - somehow.
What can the congress do to force him to chance his policies in Iraq? Does anyone know? Also, has anything at all been done to address the deepening civil war? Or the course changed in any manner, shape or form? Or is it just full speed ahead?
November 30th, 2006 at 10:36 amPoor little GDumbya. He is still flitting around the world meeting with people and speaking publicly as if he is in charge of anything.
The poor little twit still doesn't realize that his Poppy took away his car keys and the American public took away his rubber-stamp Congress.
I sure hope that this worthless and irrelevant little piece of skin and bone has a Merry Christmas because he is in for a very rude awakening in 2007.
November 30th, 2006 at 10:38 amTest
November 30th, 2006 at 10:39 amHe is mad. And he has lost whatever sense he might have had.
Comment by roger_inkart
I don't think he's mad, roger, I think he simply does not give a shit -- on any level. Maybe that is madness...
November 30th, 2006 at 10:40 amThe solution to this warmonger's continued misadventures in the Middle East is to CUT OFF FUNDING in the first 100 hours. No $ to the War Department. Then rescind the resolution which permitted the illegal invasion of Iraq. Then proceed to impeach, which will take longer.
November 30th, 2006 at 10:42 amSome words come to my mind regarding George Bush:
Insane
Incompetent
Delusional
Selfish
Stubborn
Witless
Uninformed
Uncaring
Thoughtless
Heartless
Senseless
Foolish
Crazy
Maniacal
Petulant
Unreasonable
Vile
Dumb
Stupid
Retarded
If anyone can think of more, feel free to add to this list.
November 30th, 2006 at 10:43 amBush and the Neocons are just out of ideas. They can't believe that their policies -- that they've stewed over and put forth the American people for the past 20 years -- have finally come to fruition and nothing works as they predicted.
November 30th, 2006 at 10:48 amPrime Minister Maliki is working hard to overcome the many obstacles in the way to a peaceful Iraq, and we want to help him.
Obstacles = Those pesky Sunnis who outlawed, murdered, and forced into exile Maliki, Hakim, et al who are now holding the reins of power in Iraq vis-s-vis Al Dawa, the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution of Iraq, and Muqtada Al Sadr.
November 30th, 2006 at 10:48 am"we’ll be in Iraq until the job is complete"
The whole "coalition of the willing" is falling apart.
As Tonto said to The Lone Ranger... "What do you mean "we", paleface?
November 30th, 2006 at 10:48 amWell, at least not you, then why use the word "we"? Thats why you have to picked up Jordan instead of Iraq to meet Maliki. Brave Commander-in-Chief, right there.
November 30th, 2006 at 10:48 amUnqualified
November 30th, 2006 at 10:48 amBrainless
Arrogant
Dangerous
Self-Absorbed (can I use compounds?)
Childish
Anti-Christ
Hey everybody.Only control of Congress was changed, not the Executive branch.To expect Bush or Cheney to change how they do things after 5 years is totally unrealistic.These people are convinced the Executive answers to nobody-Congress,the voters ,the Baker Iraq Study Group-nobody.This will continue until the next president is sworn in, and not a day sooner. Also, to those of you talking about impeachment-fugedaboudit!To impeach anyone there must be an investigation and all the President has to do to halt any investigation is to deny the investigators clearance to look into anything (exactly what happened when the Justice Dept back in March looked into NSA wiretapping-no clearance so investigation stymied)
November 30th, 2006 at 10:54 amWell it appears TP has banned me, perhaps because of some comments I made about them loving the Jews a little too much, and never posting bad things about them.
Want to solve half the problems in the middle east, move those friggen jews to Texas, declare it Israel.
We know what money is paying for this website don't we?
ThinkProgress my ass, think censorship, you people on the left are just as bad as the right, why won't Pelosi impeach? Simple you noodle heads, she's paid off, blackmailed, what ever it takes by the World Bank, those same people who run our Federal Reserve.
Wand to truly fix the US & World?
1> BAN ALL RELIGION - It's stupid to believe.
November 30th, 2006 at 10:54 am2> SHUT DOWN IRS & FEDERAL RESERVE
3> LASTLY NOT LEAST, TP CAN TONGUE MY DUMPER!
Bush Kneecaps Iraq Study Group: There Will Be No ‘Graceful Exit From Iraq’
Thanks to who, again?
November 30th, 2006 at 10:55 am37. Did someone wake up on the wrong side of the political spectrum?
November 30th, 2006 at 11:04 amThe decider will decide when the job is done.
November 30th, 2006 at 11:15 amMebbe what that there Iraq Research Group SHOULDA done was decide what the "job" IS so then we could all KNOW when it will be done!
And how.
And why.
November 30th, 2006 at 11:16 amNo one will make it stop.
In the immortal words of C3PO, "We're doomed!"
November 30th, 2006 at 11:16 am37, Many of us here also suspect they've "gotten to" Pelosi. But we'll give her opportunity to prove us wrong. If we suspect she's acting in her own self interest/or the interest of corporate America we'll go after her with venom. So please don't say we're as bad as the right wing loonies. They support blindly and never criticize. Most of us here are Pro-Constitution pro-Bill of Rights FIRST, Progressive or Independent Second.
November 30th, 2006 at 11:17 amNo graceful exit because there was no credible, graceful entry....this was a botched decision of humonguous proportions to even begin....fictional intelligence to defraud the people and the congress to give this cowboy the power of occupation of another country. This was a monumental error in judgment which this country will never recover in our lifetimes. Of course, there's no graceful exit strategy; there never was a "strategy" of any kind to begin with so why fester about an exit strategy now? And exit strategy should have been part & parcel of the strategic plan for this war LONG BEFORE we even considered marching in there. To even further discuss this with any semblance of intelligence now is futile. It defies intelligent, cogent, logical thought processes because there never was a "plan", an "enemy", or even a loose definition of "victory"....it's nothing more than a huge DEBACLE, an outrageous & illegal occupation and the descent of this country's international and domestic image to levels it maintained 100 years ago. Just like Vietnam....there became a point of diminishing returns....and the people spoke out against what was happening and pressured the administration to take an about face.
This egomaniacal sociopath will never have the insight (mental illness?) to admit an error (he's infallible, don't you know?) and will dig this country in even deeper if given the opportunity.....just like he ran all of his businesses in the past into the ground.
Investigate, Impeach, and Indict - the only remedy to this debacle called Iraq! He's drawn his line in the sand and will remain inflexible so he will have to be "removed by impeachment". He's really leaving the people no alternative now.
November 30th, 2006 at 11:22 am#36 Ken
To impeach anyone there must be an investigation and all the President has to do to halt any investigation is to deny the investigators clearance to look into anything (exactly what happened when the Justice Dept back in March looked into NSA wiretapping-no clearance so investigation stymied)
There's a difference. He denied investigators clearance when there was a Republican-controlled Congress that wouldn't challenge him on anything. The Dems have subpoena power now. They will investigate. If he tries to block investigations, then I guess they've got their grounds for impeachment.
November 30th, 2006 at 11:22 amAnd any of the lies listed above can be considered an "impeachable offense"....remember....Clinton Lied/Monica Sighed.....Bush Lied/Thousands Died - a huge difference here. Nixon Lied about illegal wiretapping....hello out there??? Let's discuss the illegal wiretapping of citizens which has been going on for 5 years....long before he had any type of cockamamie immunity as he rammed in legislation to cover his ass, that is. He's still culpable for all that was done before any new legislation.
November 30th, 2006 at 11:24 am#37 AnotherOneBitesTheDust
Well it appears TP has banned me
Gee, do you think it had anything to do with your being so vocal about hating Jews? Just a thought.
TP CAN TONGUE MY DUMPER!
They can't. Your head's in the way.
November 30th, 2006 at 11:25 amRemember: SUBPOENA POWER makes a huge difference!
November 30th, 2006 at 11:26 amNotice that little extra clause. W says "We're going to stay to get the job done as long as they want us there". It's so fucking trasparent. W will say "They don't want freedom and that's their choice and we're leaving."
November 30th, 2006 at 11:27 am"Knee Caps"?
November 30th, 2006 at 11:27 amWouldn't "Butt-F**ks be a more accurate term?
Bushit "Today we had a meeting that will accelerate the capacity for the prime minister to do the hard work necessary to help stop this violence.â€
November 30th, 2006 at 11:30 amHard work again...
Craparoonie. As if this jackanape ever knew what hard work is, was, or might have been!
APD must be second cousin to BPD with hallucinations....it's definitely something to consider with continued actions we've seen. There's definitely something very wrong with this man's personality. I suspect serious psychiatric problems. He's been medicated (from video evidence) since following the last election; I suspect his "jaunting around the world" right now is akin to "hiding out" (panic attacks anyone?)...which brings up a good point....he certainly had nothing resembling a panic attack while he sat reading My Pet Goat while people died in the WTC....hmmmm...sedated then? Or perhaps he knew his life was not in jeopardy? hmmmm...
. He can't take the heat of the american people's blatant rejection of him, his policies, and his personal level of corruption. Could be APD or BPD....alcoholism is part of the panoply of disorders associated with BPD ...panic attacks fall into the same umbrella as well.
November 30th, 2006 at 11:31 am#30 + 35 - Hey, you forgot LIAR.
November 30th, 2006 at 11:35 amOne should be careful what they ask for - jokingly, he said that he doesn't care if all he has left in his camp would be Laura and Barney - well, it's beginning to look like that statement was quite prophetic. And, of course, Laura and Barney are being paid for and fed by him so that's really a no brainer at all.
Mom and Pappy must be mortally humiliated by this misanthrope's actions in the past and his continued personality disorder manifesting itself. Even old, broken down Pappy can't fix that.
November 30th, 2006 at 11:35 am#30 #...you forgot the best of them all: INCORRIGIBLY EVIL
November 30th, 2006 at 11:38 amI don't know, veritas, rumor has it that Barney may be putting in a resignation soon.
November 30th, 2006 at 11:38 am#60 - Would that ol' Barney would turn on him and chomp his hand. Dogs have this sense of whose kind vs evil...Has anyone seen a picture of W cuddling ol barndogs?
November 30th, 2006 at 11:39 am54. Nevermind trying to decifer if the people fleeing are terrorist or just terrified people.
November 30th, 2006 at 11:40 amProcrastination, stay the course, or whatever you want to call it is what came out of today's meeting in Jordon. Yet Bush expects different results this time around. At this point one has to wonder about the state of Bush's mental health. This goes beyond mere stubborness.
November 30th, 2006 at 11:46 amIt appears that the changes to be proposed by the Iraq Study Group are so incremental as to be meaningless. Drawing down troops just means moving them onto the permanent superbases and keeping them there, ready for the invasion of Iran.
November 30th, 2006 at 11:47 amWe want the people of Iraq to live in a free society. It’s in our interests.
Then why isn't Dafur in our interests? Just say it George. OIL
November 30th, 2006 at 11:48 amCAPTION:
"I'm a idiot".
November 30th, 2006 at 11:49 amAnd what, does this idiot think "Shock and Awe" was a graceful entrance?
I think he should leave the White House the same way he entered... shamefully through the back door.
November 30th, 2006 at 11:50 amI am gravely concerned about the future of the USA. It seems, from an outside perspective, that the people have "spoken" and that the mandate is to "get out of Iraq". But it also seems, very much so from the outside, that the USA has no intention of leaving Iraq and is also ramping up aggressively for more offensive military action, both in Iraq and also towards Iran.
I, much to the chagrin of many here, am very outspoken about my "opinions" in regard to the culpability of each and every citizen of the USA in regard to what I am convinced are criminal, immoral, and heinous activities by the USA and its military. The most common responses to my comments and challenges to your collective accountability have been that "we speak through our votes and our representatives" and "we are doing all we can".
Putting aside my "opinions" about the validity of those responses for the moment, I have two questions: 1) How many here have contacted their representatives, both current and incoming, about an immediate and full withdrawal of your military from Iraq? And 2) How many here have contacted their representatives, both current and incoming, about your pending offensive military action against Iran?
Considering the stakes, I believe these to be incredibly pertinent and valid questions and would greatly appreciate specific and considered responses.
Peace.
November 30th, 2006 at 11:50 amThe Madness of King George.
November 30th, 2006 at 11:56 amYou've seen the movie. Life imitates art.
Sixteen intel agencies, including the CIA and Mossad, have been telling Bush for over a year that staying in Iraq only hurts America and helps al Qaeda.
Doesn't matter. Bush's ego it too important, so it's OK for him to go on hurting America and helping al Qaeda, just so long as he doesn't have to admit he was wrong.
November 30th, 2006 at 12:00 pm.
No we have plenty of ideas left and up our sleeve
One wonders what you'll screw up next, since you haven't done anything right yet.
Then again, since you support the man who knows he's only hurting American and helping al Qaeda, maybe screwing up America was the only "idea" y'all ever had.
It would make sense, since the right hates most of America outside their little trailer park.
November 30th, 2006 at 12:02 pm.
Should I or Shouldnt I? mmm…
Comment by Juan C
I would back you up, whatever you decide, Juan.
November 30th, 2006 at 12:04 pmThe Great Decider is correct and he, either through incompetence or Chrisitian fanaticism, has set the region on a course for a civil war that could easily blow up in his face and possibly draw Iran and Turkey and Saudi Arabia into it. The Rapture freaks are probably all working themselves into a tizzy.
November 30th, 2006 at 12:05 pm"We will, in fact, be greeted as liberators. . . . I think it will go relatively quickly... (in) weeks rather than months."
 Vice President Cheney [3/16/03].
The war "could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months."
 Rumsfeld [2/7/03].
"It's hard to conceive that it would take more forces to provide stability in post-Saddam Iraq than it would take to conduct the war itself and secure the surrender of Saddam's security forces and his army. Hard to imagine."
 Wolfowitz [2/27/2003].
Bush: US Troops Will Remain In Iraq...
November 30th, 2006 at 12:17 pm94. I'll always converse with you. I have, in fact sent emails to my House rep and my senators regarding Iraq, Iran and several other issues. I will be sending more until I get an answer and I will probably send even more after that if the response is unsatisfactory.
Now answer my question. What do you think would happen if we immediately withdrew from Iraq?
I am not for this conflict and I am disgusted by the carnage. I also know that an enormous power vaccum will be created if we do just leave. This is in no way a show of support for Bush. It's an understanding of the current situation.
I have answered your question. Now answer mine. Please don't include fables or analogies.
November 30th, 2006 at 12:31 pmGood news: Bush finally announces his "adapt to win" strategy!
Bad news: The "new" strategy is STAY THE COURSE, v.2.0.
November 30th, 2006 at 12:32 pm#77, Humanist: I have two questions: 1) How many here have contacted their representatives, both current and incoming, about an immediate and full withdrawal of your military from Iraq? And 2) How many here have contacted their representatives, both current and incoming, about your pending offensive military action against Iran?
Excellent questions!
I have. It is easy. All one needs to do is go to their representatives website and fill out a form.
What about you?
Assuming you are from a democratic country......
How exactly have you been in contact with the representatives in your country?
What consequences have your proposed to your representatives if they do not act on your concerns in regard to the immediate and full withdrawal of the US military from Iraq
What consequences have your proposed to your representatives if they do not act in regard to the pending offensive military action against Iran?
November 30th, 2006 at 12:33 pmIt's all one great big stage play ran by the elite of the world.Nancy works for the same skull and bones jerks as Kerry and Bush and Carter and Clinton.''Keep them entertained while we trample their rights'' So simple.Ladies and Gentlemen'' Iran just fired a russian made nuke at us''Details right after the football game''Could the South American president be in on this''We'll clue you in right after this message from male enhancment for men over sixty.
November 30th, 2006 at 12:34 pm1) How many here have contacted their representatives, both current and incoming, about an immediate and full withdrawal of your military from Iraq? And 2) How many here have contacted their representatives, both current and incoming, about your pending offensive military action against Iran?
Peace.
Comment by Humanist
I have! But I live in Idaho, so I might as well spit in the wind.
November 30th, 2006 at 12:43 pmHumanist - Every month, sometimes twice a month, the honorable Jay Inslee and I have this conversation.
November 30th, 2006 at 12:44 pmI, much to the chagrin of many here, am very outspoken about my “opinions†in regard to the culpability of each and every citizen of the USA in regard to what I am convinced are criminal, immoral, and heinous activities by the USA and its military
Humanist, this is another example of your absolutist thinking. Each and every citizen? Does that include the children? How about people in nursing homes, or the mentally disabled? How about the millions of Americans who have dedicated a lot of money and time to fighting the Bush administration? Does that include George Soros? Does that include all the grandmothers-for-peace organizations forming out there? If Paul Wellstone were alive, would that include him?
You badly undercut your message, and indeed your moral authority, when you make these blanket smears against all Americans.
November 30th, 2006 at 12:45 pmHumanist,
And, by the way, answer your own questions. I don't answer loaded questions from holier-than-thou moralizing jerks.
November 30th, 2006 at 12:46 pmHumanist, answer these questions:
1. What country do you live in, and what is your nationality/citizenship?
November 30th, 2006 at 12:59 pm2. What are you doing to stop or reverse the wrongs perpetrated by whatever you regard to be your home country.
And while you are answering those questions, quit dodging my other questions, like whether you think children are culpable for the actions of the Bush administration.
November 30th, 2006 at 1:01 pm#107
It's been great, Humanist. I've so enjoyed this discussion. I know they weren't my questions, but I thought RealScientist posed some good ones for you. How about answering them, your lordship?
November 30th, 2006 at 1:03 pm#104-RealScientist,
In sports, when a team loses a game or a match or a tournament, there are two approaches to identifying responsibility for the loss:
1. It was the fault of one player, or the coach, or a call by the official, or a myriad of other excuses that focus on an individual.
2. The entire team and its coaching staff take responsibility for the loss.
Which do you subscribe to?
And when I say "americans" I mean every american adult who is mentally competent. If you feel that I need to be that specific I will use such terminology henceforth.
Peace.
November 30th, 2006 at 1:04 pmIn sports, when a team loses a game or a match or a tournament, there are two approaches to identifying responsibility for the loss:
Humanist, this analogy is, quite frankly, stupid. Your two choices amount to a false dichotomy, by the way. I see you are incapable of dealing with shades of gray. But it is obvious that subtlety isn't your forte.
And when I say “americans†I mean every american adult who is mentally competent. If you feel that I need to be that specific I will use such terminology henceforth.
You should have been this specific to begin with if that is what you meant. But I want to point out that you dodged most of my questions. Very chickensh*t of you.
By the way, when do you graduate from junior high school?
November 30th, 2006 at 1:12 pm113. your assumption is faulty. You assume that the two teams are equals when they meet on the playing field. Are they equal in quality of players? Qualities of plays being called? Quality of the playing field? Try again.
In sports there are superior teams, superior players and superior coaches. Same goes for countrys.
November 30th, 2006 at 1:16 pm#107, Humanist: So, has anyone else done anything?
What about you?
Other than looking into the hand mirror and urging action from Americans while on TP, what have you done ?
Assuming you are from a democratic country……
How exactly have you been in contact with the representatives in your country?
What consequences have your proposed to your representatives if they do not act on your concerns in regard to the immediate and full withdrawal of the US military from Iraq
What consequences have your proposed to your representatives if they do not act in regard to the pending offensive military action against Iran?
November 30th, 2006 at 1:18 pmThat's okay: there was no graceful entry into Iraq either.
November 30th, 2006 at 1:18 pm#109-RealScientist,
As you wish, here are the very specific answers that you seek:
1. What country do you live in, and what is your nationality/citizenship?
I live in the USA, in the state of California. Although I am a native (to both locales), I am the result of a union between an Italian and Portuguese americans, both 2nd generation. My citizenship status is in limbo. I began the process of renouncing my citizenship on March 19, 2003.
2. What are you doing to stop or reverse the wrongs perpetrated by whatever you regard to be your home country.
I have always considered the Earth as my home country. Home is where the heart is and I have friends and relatives in Portugal, Italy, USA, Canada, Mexico, Puerto Rico, Sweden, Britain, New Zealand, Australia, Germany, Korea, Vietnam, Russia, Finland, Japan, and, actually, the list goes on and is ever expanding. I have not yet been forced to choose "one" in my renouncement process. Currently the Earth is perpetrating no wrongs. However, there are substantial and grievous wrongs being perpetrated upon it.
I hope that answers your questions.
Peace.
November 30th, 2006 at 1:20 pm#77, Humanist: I, much to the chagrin of many here, am very outspoken about my “opinions†in regard to the culpability of each and every citizen of the USA in regard to what I am convinced are criminal, immoral, and heinous activities by the USA and its military.
In this era of Globalism, how are you not guilty of the criminal, immoral, and heinous activities performed by the USA and its military?
As a humanitarian and citizen of a world without borders, how are you not guilty of the criminal, immoral, and heinous activities performed by the USA and its military?
As a humanitarian and citizen of a world without borders, what exactly are you doing to stop the criminal, immoral, and heinous activities performed by the USA and its military?
Please be specific: I wish to read of your ACTION.
November 30th, 2006 at 1:25 pmHumanist,
I have always considered the Earth as my home country (snip) Currently the Earth is perpetrating no wrongs.
In other words you are doing nothing. Hypocrite. I would tell you put down your bong for a minute, but I don't want to slander the many fine and intelligent pot smokers of the world.
What a load of crap.
November 30th, 2006 at 1:27 pm#118-goodscarrier,
What I have done is made a conscious decision to not participate in or contribute to what I believe to be a heinous atrocity perpetrated by the USA against humanity. The ramifications of which are not yet fully determined but will almost certainly include expulsion from my home with the possibility of returning only for the funerals of my immediate family.
Peace.
November 30th, 2006 at 1:27 pmI began the process of renouncing my citizenship on March 19, 2003.
Be sure to check with Mommy and Daddy before you attempt this.
November 30th, 2006 at 1:30 pm#120, Humanist
You are an American!
You bash Americans and have renounced your US citizenship due to your fellow citizens' inaction in regard to the carnage in Iraq?
You are inciting Americans to uprise BUT you have in fact failed to uprise yourself?
You have asked who has contacted their representatives BUT then fail to admit that you have in fact contacted your representatives?
November 30th, 2006 at 1:34 pmDefinition of Insanity:
To continually keep doing the same thing expecting different results.
November 30th, 2006 at 1:34 pm#122-goodscarrier,
As a member of the human race and a resident of the planet Earth, I am a responsible member of that community. In regard to the criminal, immoral, and heinous activities being carried out by the USA and its military, I am attempting any and all peaceful measures to end them. Currently I am speaking to as many citizens of the USA as possible to convince them to take responsibility for their country and its actions.
May peace be with us all.
November 30th, 2006 at 1:34 pmJr isn't going to listen to Sr's men.
A wierd odepal thing going on in the Bush family to be sure.
Either that or George is just a total idiot.
November 30th, 2006 at 1:34 pm#124, Humanist: What I have done is made a conscious decision to not participate in or contribute to what I believe to be a heinous atrocity perpetrated by the USA against humanity.
You made a "conscious decision"?
What?
While people are being slaughtered and maimed, you sit and think and urge other people to act on what you think is correct?
Wow!
What a Humanist!!
So much for contacting your representives!
The hell with the uprising you've got thinking to do!!
November 30th, 2006 at 1:38 pm#126-RealScientist,
My father passed away last year at the age of 78. An honorable and very good man who does not deserve your slander. My mother is alive and well, thank you, and I look forward to seeing her this weekend when she comes to visit with my sister and grandmother.
Since I have not lived with my parents since I turned 18, which was 26+ years ago, I have not required their "permission" since that time. However, both have always been supportive of my philosophical pursuits. I am very fortunate in that regard.
Peace.
November 30th, 2006 at 1:40 pmEssentially the answer from the president is Thank's but no thanks. It at least give him the opportunity to say the issue was looked at independently and the white house has decided to not follow the recomendations. It gives him a measure of politcal coverage. But all along those who can see what Bush does have known that his only course of action was to follow his own course of action.
November 30th, 2006 at 1:40 pmThe war in Iraq was lost before we ever invaded, and not just because it was poorly planned, and inadequately executed with no clear tactics or strategy.
The war was lost because it was immoral. It was immoral because each pretext for going to war was a lie, and because there was never any threat from Iraq, direct or otherwise.
The Bush administration may call it a "preemtive strike". The rest of the world is calling it, and rightly, an UNPROVOKED attack.
We need to leave, because we never had any justification for being there in the first place.
We need to leave, let happen what is inevitable, and then approach whichever faction wins with proposals for paying war reparations. We destroyed Iraq, and there is no way to fix it, or 'exit gracefully'. We can only hope that if there is a God, He will forgive our fearfulness, stupidity, arrogance, greed and hatred.
November 30th, 2006 at 1:41 pmHumanist,
Since you are only in the "process" of renouncing your US citizenship, I have one question. Do you vote?
November 30th, 2006 at 1:44 pmWhile people are being slaughtered and maimed, you sit and think and urge other people to act on what you think is correct?
Comment by goodscarrier — November 30, 2006 @ 1:38 pm
Be fair. He's doing what practically everyone else is doing here, speaking his mind, trying to convince everyone he's right. If that's doing nothing, then everyone here is guilty of that.
As for contacting your representative.... I do that all the time, and I get a nice form letter printed up by someone who didn't really read my letter/email and no action.... I don't know... maybe the paper I'm writing on is defective....
November 30th, 2006 at 1:46 pmMy father passed away last year at the age of 78. An honorable and very good man who does not deserve your slander.
Comment by Humanist — November 30, 2006 @ 1:40 pm
Okay, jerk, point out to me exactly where I slandered your father.
November 30th, 2006 at 1:47 pm#131-goodcarrier,
I suggest you educate yourself on the process of renouncing citizenship. I currently do not have "representatives", I represent myself.
As far as what I am "doing", I currently have two choices:
1: Peaceful dialogue and diplomacy
2: Wage war
I have chosen option #1, but reserve the right to option #2. Do you believe that I should reverse those?
Peace.
November 30th, 2006 at 1:47 pmOnly a complete idiot would remain in Iraq. Which unfortunately explains the rationale for Dubya's unyielding position.
November 30th, 2006 at 1:47 pm#136-Zooey,
I am no longer eligible to vote in the USA.
Peace.
November 30th, 2006 at 1:48 pm#129 Humanist: As a member of the human race and a resident of the planet Earth, I am a responsible member of that community. In regard to the criminal, immoral, and heinous activities being carried out by the USA and its military, I am attempting any and all peaceful measures to end them. Currently I am speaking to as many citizens of the USA as possible to convince them to take responsibility for their country and its actions.
Human race? That's becoming a bit like you referring to yourself in the 3rd person. HINT: I am pretty sure we are all humans.
I am attempting any and all peaceful measures to end them? You are at TP. You are NOT a human shield in Iraq. Plus, you are bashing your fellow citizens for not taking up action which even you have not taken up.
I am speaking? Where, when, and how? Please post a list of your speaking engagements since 2003.
November 30th, 2006 at 1:49 pmBe fair. He’s doing what practically everyone else is doing here, speaking his mind, trying to convince everyone he’s right. If that’s doing nothing, then everyone here is guilty of that.
Comment by Swordsbane — November 30, 2006 @ 1:46 pm
It isn't what he is doing, it is how he is doing it. Swordsbane, I simply don't understand why you continue to defend this clown.
November 30th, 2006 at 1:51 pmHumanist,
Since you are only in the “process†of renouncing your US citizenship, I have one question. Do you vote?
---- Zooey
He is a freekin hypocrite Zooey.
I thought he was a hypocritical brit ( or scott ) like Tobey,that liketo bash americans while refusing to bash Blair and England for participating in the same war.
Come to find out, he is an american hypocrite, interesting......
November 30th, 2006 at 1:52 pmCurrently I am speaking to as many citizens of the USA as possible to convince them to take responsibility for their country and its actions.
Comment by Humanist — November 30, 2006 @ 1:34 pm
Until the process of renouncing your citizenship is final, you are also an American and hence personally responsible for the actions of the USA in Iraq -per your logic.
Furthermore, renouncing your citizenship instead of taking a proactive stance in regards to this absolute catastrophe is the easy, cowardly way out. It provides you a very convenient -however flimsy- excuse for your own inaction.
Your grandstanding about your "philosophical pursuits", your emotional manipulation, your patronising and holier-than-thou attitude, your expectations that others live up to your standards, etc. are no different -no different at all- from what the self-proclaimed gatekeepers of public morality use to gain blind followers and keep them as obedient sheep.
I reject you (and your sad attemp at moral superiority) as I reject them.
November 30th, 2006 at 1:54 pmSwordsbane, what is fair about Humanist repeatedly excoriating others for allegedly doing nothing when he has admitted to doing nothing himself? It is flaming hypocrisy. Not to mention all the false accusations he throws around, like that I slandered his father.
November 30th, 2006 at 1:55 pm#139-RealScientist,
When you stated, and I quote: Be sure to check with Mommy and Daddy before you attempt this.
Your intent was to insinuate that I was a petulant child, which is intended as an insult to myself and my parents. You cannot insult me, so there is no issue there. However, if you challenge the honor of my parents I will respond accordingly.
Peace.
November 30th, 2006 at 1:56 pm#140, Humanist: I suggest you educate yourself on the process of renouncing citizenship. I currently do not have “representativesâ€, I represent myself.
You `began the process of renouncing your citizenship on March 19, 2003'?
Where are you in the process?
So are you still a US citizen?
What exactly is your status?
November 30th, 2006 at 1:56 pmI am no longer eligible to vote in the USA.
---- Humanist
Well when you gave up your right to vote, you gave up your right to critique Americans and the government.
Your vote makes a difference you raging idiot.
Thanks for your help by voting this last election, NOT.
Idiot.
November 30th, 2006 at 1:57 pmWhen you stated, and I quote: Be sure to check with Mommy and Daddy before you attempt this.
Your intent was to insinuate that I was a petulant child, which is intended as an insult to myself and my parents.
Comment by Humanist — November 30, 2006 @ 1:56 pm
Sorry, punk, this is too far of a stretch for anyone here to swallow. By the way, thanks for revealing once and for all time that you are a dumb pompous jerk, full of yourself and full of sh*t.
November 30th, 2006 at 2:01 pm#146-Gregor Samsa,
You are woefully ignorant of the renouncement process. That is understandable.
Now, your claim that my actions are "inaction" is flawed both logically and intellectually. My choice has been made and action has been taken. I take full and complete responsibility for my choices and actions. If you do not agree with them, that is your right. But denying their existence is merely denial and most definitely disingenuous.
Peace.
November 30th, 2006 at 2:03 pm3138, Swordsbane: Be fair. He’s doing what practically everyone else is doing here, speaking his mind, trying to convince everyone he’s right. If that’s doing nothing, then everyone here is guilty of that.
I am fair. I am also sort of saddened that Humanist took the petulant, pouty, and unwise step of renouncing his US citizenship.
Bush, whom he assigns no culpability to the ghastly events going on Iraq, is not the US. As the history of tyrants shows, Bush is going down, soon.
Like it or not, he's a 3rd generation American soon to be without a country.
November 30th, 2006 at 2:05 pmIt isn’t what he is doing, it is how he is doing it. Swordsbane, I simply don’t understand why you continue to defend this clown.
Comment by RealScientist — November 30, 2006 @ 1:51 pm
Because you guy's are attacking him for the wrong reasons. You said it yourself. It's how he's doing it, not what he's doing. Look either you agree with his point of view or you don't. I don't agree with many of the things he says, but I understand where he's coming from.
The ENTIRE United States citizenry shares SOME responsibility for what our government does. I don't agree with Humanist when he says we have ALL of the responsibility. It's a matter of perspective. We all choose to be United States Citizens. We could go and live in any other country in the world, but we choose to live here, dispite the fact that for the last six years, we've been practically the most malevolent country in the world.
I think we can accept some criticism as payment for that.
Having said that, Jeeze, you both agree that the government is being stupid, so stop worrying about where exactly how much responsibility is who's and do something constructive. Otherwise, you're both the same.
November 30th, 2006 at 2:06 pm#150-goodscarrier,
The renouncement process is an incredibly technical and complex one. There are numerous resources available to you for reference and specific details. I recommend that you look to those for your technical questions.
I am in the midst of the process dealing with my own specific technical issues. Technically I am not a citizen from a voting standpoint, but I am still paying into Social Security and Medicare though I am ineligible for both and have forfeited those “accountsâ€.
Peace.
November 30th, 2006 at 2:11 pmI think we can accept some criticism as payment for that.
Comment by Swordsbane — November 30, 2006 @ 2:06 pm
I agree with the spirit in your post, with one caveat: I do not take criticism from hypocrites very well. And I do not see the need to let others patronise me.
Maybe you like it when people talk down to you. I take exception.
November 30th, 2006 at 2:11 pmAccording to the Borgen Project, the Bush could have achieved the UN Millennium Goals and eradicated poverty and hunger last year. That would have been a glorifying act for this administration. Instead, Bush is adamant still about his overspending in Iraq--It takes just $40 to 60 billion a year to end poverty and hunger...and we spent $420 billion on defense.
November 30th, 2006 at 2:13 pmSwordsbane, you are wrong on so many levels it is hard to know where to begin. I will try to make a few salient points, however.
Because you guy’s are attacking him for the wrong reasons. You said it yourself. It’s how he’s doing it, not what he’s doing.
In my world, how people do things matters a lot. I think if you ask around, a lot of people feel the same way. You may think we are attacking him for the wrong reasons, but that is your own value judgment.
Look either you agree with his point of view or you don’t.
Really? How simplistic. This is cut and run vs. stay the course logic, a false dichotomy. Of course our country is doing many things wrong, and I never said I disagreed with his points, at least those few points coherent enough to form a judgment about.
The ENTIRE United States citizenry shares SOME responsibility for what our government does.
Really? What about children? What about mentally challenged people? What about lawyers who have agreed to represent alleged terrorists, at considerable risk to themselves? Ridiculous.
We all choose to be United States Citizens. We could go and live in any other country in the world, but we choose to live here
You obviously don't know anything about immigration policies in other countries. U.S. citizens cannot simply go and live anywhere they would like to. It is actually quite difficult for us to legally immigrate to many countries, especially in the developed world.
I think we can accept some criticism as payment for that.
No, we can't, because the premise on which this statement is based is totally wrong.
Having said that, Jeeze, you both agree that the government is being stupid, so stop worrying about where exactly how much responsibility is who’s and do something constructive. Otherwise, you’re both the same.
No, we aren't both the same, and you haven't made a shred of a case that this is true.
November 30th, 2006 at 2:17 pmBegin impeachment hearings, stop funding Bush's Iraqi War or begin the military draft. This arrogance needs to stop.
November 30th, 2006 at 2:17 pmNow, your claim that my actions are “inaction†is flawed both logically and intellectually. My choice has been made and action has been taken.
Comment by Humanist — November 30, 2006 @ 2:03 pm
I was talking about your own inaction regarding the Iraq debacle -which is what we are talking about- my morally weak fiend.
You have already admitted doing close to nothig, except renounce your citizenship. Instead of helping, you decided to take the exit. That is only an actual action in your self-deluded world.
But denying their existence is merely denial and most definitely disingenuous.
Coming here to deny you have a stake in this problem is actual denial. Patronise and condescend others when you have gone out of your way to not be politically engaged in order to end the occupation of Iraq is wholly disingenuous, and morally bankrupt.
You are part of the problem, not the solution. American citizens need to be engaged, as you say, not look the other way and take the easy way out -as you have done.
Your motto is: Do as I say, not as I do.
November 30th, 2006 at 2:19 pmNo, we aren’t both the same, and you haven’t made a shred of a case that this is true.
Comment by RealScientist — November 30, 2006 @ 2:17 pm
Oh.. well never mind then.
November 30th, 2006 at 2:20 pm#157, Humanist
What specifically is your status?
Are you are a "US citizen" who is in the process of renouncing US citizenship?
Are you a US citizen?
Are you not a US citizen?
Are you both a US citizen and stateless?
Are you neither a US citizen and stateless?
What is your status within the process?
There is classification to which you belong.
Please specify.
November 30th, 2006 at 2:22 pmIt's interesting to me to see the reaction of many posters (perhaps with the exception of Swordsbane at the moment) the truly reactionary and defensive response to Humanist.I, personally, find that his posts make me think, even though sometimes I also get "offended" by his opinions. But let's face it people. It's always easier to blame others (specifically the Bush administration) and expect others to "do something" (the new Democratic majority). I've marched and protested, written letters to all my representatives, voted for people that I thought could bring this horror to an end and talked endlessly to my friends and neighbors about the situation, especially Republicans. The only thing that seems to have had any impact at all is talking to the Republicans, formerly strong supporters of Bush and this war, who voted for Democrats this year and are disgusted with the administration's behavior and policies. How much that had to do with my input, and how much simple reality had to do with, I don't know. But I certainly can't disagree with this sentiment by Humanist. Can you?
I am gravely concerned about the future of the USA. It seems, from an outside perspective, that the people have “spoken†and that the mandate is to “get out of Iraqâ€. But it also seems, very much so from the outside, that the USA has no intention of leaving Iraq and is also ramping up aggressively for more offensive military action, both in Iraq and also towards Iran.
November 30th, 2006 at 2:27 pmGregor Samsa: You are part of the problem, not the solution. American citizens need to be engaged, as you say, not look the other way and take the easy way out -as you have done.
Exactly!!
When the going gets tough, when atrocities are being committed in our name, Humanist runs to the lofty perch of statelessness and then goes on snipe at his fellow Americans who are emotionlly and physically wounded, dying, distraught, etc.
Talk about APATHY!!
November 30th, 2006 at 2:29 pm#157, Humanist
What specifically is your status?
Comment by goodscarrier — November 30, 2006 @ 2:22 pm
Humanist's status is "liar". His story about renouncing his citizenship in some sort of process that has already taken 3 1/2 years but is not yet complete is just a tall tale.
November 30th, 2006 at 2:31 pmMany here have constantly criticized me for being harsh. So, I tone it down.
Then many criticize me for being pompous and condescending. So I consciously modify my normal vocabulary as much as possible and re-read and edit my posts to address those criticisms.
Many here questioned where I live and who I am. I provided specific answers.
Finally, many here questioned what I’ve done, so I provided specific answers there.
Now, I’ve acquiesced to the complaints and criticisms. I’ve responded specifically to your questions. What is the result?
Baseless Criticism and ignorant judgments on my actions.
Derogatory comments and insinuations.
How “progressive†are you my friends? How open-minded do you feel yourself to be? I have performed the most extreme act of civil disobedience possible and to some that is just not enough. Which leads me to the conclusion that many here feel that only violence yields result.
Perhaps your government is, after all, performing as an accurate representation of its people.
May peace be with us all.
November 30th, 2006 at 2:33 pmIt’s interesting to me to see the reaction of many posters (perhaps with the exception of Swordsbane at the moment) the truly reactionary and defensive response to Humanist.
Comment by impeachcheneythenbush — November 30, 2006 @ 2:27 pm
So you aren't bothered by the hypocrisy, the lies, the absurd posturing, the baseless personal attacks waged against others, the phony victim complex, or any of Humanist's other pathologies? Just because you agree with a few of his less garbled points? As I told Humanist earlier, he undercuts his points with all this extraneous crap, and he makes his cause look ridiculous when he makes himself look like a nut and a liar.
November 30th, 2006 at 2:40 pmI point to comment #169 as a perfect example of Humanist's whiny crybaby victim complex, and also an extreme case of projection.
November 30th, 2006 at 2:41 pmWhen the going gets tough, when atrocities are being committed in our name, Humanist runs to the lofty perch of statelessness and then goes on snipe at his fellow Americans who are emotionlly and physically wounded, dying, distraught, etc.
Talk about APATHY!!
Comment by goodscarrier — November 30, 2006 @ 2:29 pm
If he were apathetic, he wouldn't even be here, trying to argue you to his side.
Let me ask a question to all of the Democrats here.
Do you know how your representative voted when Bush wanted to invade? It wasn't just republicans who sided with Bush then. Did you vote for one of those Democrats? You don't have to tell me, but you better know the answer before you act like your conscience is clean. Some of us saw this coming before 9/11. And if there are any Democrats here who used to be Republicans when all this started, ask yourself this: Did you become a Democrat because you understand what a Democrat is and like what you see, or are you a Democrat because you don't like the Republicans? Realscientist is right, it is difficult to cease being an American citizen. Not something to be entered into lightly. You're giving up a lot of benefits in the process, so who's got more guts, someone who decides to give up being a citizen of the US, or someone who stays in their cushy citizens life and votes for Democrats because they believe, dispite the historical record, that Democrats will somehow fix everything?
November 30th, 2006 at 2:46 pm#167-goodscarrier,
So, you think that having to separate oneself from the country of their birth is easy. That making a decision of conscience that will result in losing physical contact with one’s immediate family is a cowardly act. That acknowledging that in order to fulfill and maintain my oath to serve and protect the Constitution of the United States of America that I would have to detach myself from it was just flimsy whim.
Perhaps for you, but not for me, my friend.
Peace.
November 30th, 2006 at 2:46 pm169, Humanist: Perhaps your government is, after all, performing as an accurate representation of its people.
Your government?
HINT: Humanist, your mask has been yanked off.
ROTFLAMOL!!
It is our goverment, i.e. one which you have failed to engage, one which you have urged others to engage despite your own lack of engagement.
Like it or not, you are an American, i.e. a 3rd generation American by birth and also legally an American.
You may have "begun" to renounce your citizenship BUT you are and always be an AMERICAN.
November 30th, 2006 at 2:47 pmWell when you gave up your right to vote, you gave up your right to critique Americans and the government.
Comment by Wayne
Excuse me?
November 30th, 2006 at 2:48 pmWhere did you come up with that? Do I have to be a US citizen to criticize US government? Do I have to be a Rwanda citizen to criticize that government? US citizens criticize other country´s governments all the time: Venezuela, Bolivia, France, Iraq, Cuba, North Korea, etc...
Humanist
You have continually failed to answer the question about your status.
I do not care what you think you status is.
What does the US goverment think your status is?
Waiting.......
Be truthful my fellow American (snicker)....
November 30th, 2006 at 2:49 pmHumanist - I appreciate your posts. I am extremely ashamed of our country and saddened that the American people were brainwashed and lolled into a deep, deep sleep. Many are starting to wake up, but it may be too late to save this once great nation.
I marched against this war and have attended demonstrations renouncing bu$hco and their policies. I vote and I write my senators and congressman regularly. I put up signs in my yard and I have an "Impeach Bush" bumper sticker on my car. I talk with people and I listen. For the past five years people have been afraid to speak out; afraid of being labeled a terrorist or unpatriotic. Just what bu$hco intended as they whittled away our rights. But We, the People, let them. It seems to me that the only way to retain our rights is by exercising them - no matter what the consequences might be.
Most Americans are beginning to realize that the "war on terra" is a hoax and that the real terrorists are occupying our White House. There is a do it yourself Impeachment website and I encourage everyone to participate. Print it out, fill it out and send it to your representative, Nancy Pelosi and John Conyers -- and keep doing it and doing it and doing it.
Bu$hco must be impeached, removed and imprisoned. Let's get to work!!
November 30th, 2006 at 2:50 pmI’ve responded specifically to your questions. What is the result?
Baseless Criticism and ignorant judgments on my actions.
Derogatory comments and insinuations.
Comment by Humanist — November 30, 2006 @ 2:33 pm
Aaahh... playing the passive-aggressive card now, aren't we?
What has happened is that we have finally pissed off people enough, and we have figured out what a condescending hypocrite you are.
You have spend days criticising others, and judging their actions. You have made nasty insinuations about other posters here. I'd say Karma is a bitch.
How “progressive†are you my friends? How open-minded do you feel yourself to be?
What does being progressive or open-minded have to do with anything at all? Do you really expect people who are open-minded to lay down and take a beating without raising as much as a finger? Do you really expect progressive people to respond well to condescension?
What planet are you from?
I have performed the most extreme act of civil disobedience possible and to some that is just not enough.
An action is considered sufficient or not based on what it accomplishes.
Has the renouncing of your citizenship ended the occupation of Iraq? No.
Has it ended US military actions against other nations once and for all? No
Has it ended the corruption in Capitol Hill? No
Has anyone in position to take action towards any of these noticed you? No
Reality 4, Humanist 0
Which leads me to the conclusion that many here feel that only violence yields result.
Yet another false dichotomy, courtesy of Humanist: Either all Americans take up arms or renounce their citizenship.
If all Americans who oppose the occupation of Iraq renounced their citizenship, the occupation -and the carnage- would still continue. Any child would understand this concept.
Perhaps your government is, after all, performing as an accurate representation of its people.
Didn't you just critise people who judge? And you are in no position to be a judge yourself.
November 30th, 2006 at 2:50 pmGeez, I went to lunch thinking Humanist was a pompous blowhard from some other country. I come back to find out he's a pompous blowhard American living in America!
Humanist, you've blamed everyone in the USA for Iraq. You damn well better be blaming yourself for it, too. You don't get to condemn everyone else and grant yourself absolution. And it doesn't sound to me like you've done nearly as much to try to stop the Bush administration as others here have done. Yeah, I've talked to a lot of people, too. And, I door-knocked and phone-banked and organized and held signs and protested and worked my butt off for candidates in the last three elections. I don't accept blame from you and I don't see any indication that you've done anything that would make you any less culpable than the rest of us.
November 30th, 2006 at 2:52 pm#171-RealScientist,
I am not, nor have I ever claimed to be, a victim. I take full responsibility for my actions and any consequences from those actions. I have never claimed differently nor would I ever do so.
And please show specific examples of the “hypocrisy†that you accuse me of so that I can respond accordingly. Otherwise you are just throwing out baseless accusations driven by cowardice and insecurity.
Peace.
November 30th, 2006 at 2:53 pm#176, Humanist: So, you think that having to separate oneself from the country of their birth is easy. That making a decision of conscience that will result in losing physical contact with one’s immediate family is a cowardly act. That acknowledging that in order to fulfill and maintain my oath to serve and protect the Constitution of the United States of America that I would have to detach myself from it was just flimsy whim.
Easy, au contraire, I think it would be hard and incredibly stupid at this time of civil unrest throughout the world. I never even thought or suggested it would be easy.
The rest of your post is Diva-queen-ish.
All I can say is tough shit.
I am really sort of saddened that you did that.
But, what the hell, long live diversity!
November 30th, 2006 at 2:53 pmPERFECT
Bicker amongst yourselves. You must know that was the plan all along. Pitt dems vs. repubs... conservs vs. libs.... blacks vs. whites. Anything to distract you from the truth. Just argue about gays and bigots. Spend hours debating abortion and stem cells. Scream at the top of your lungs declaring that your party / religion / country / ethics / race / color / morality / science / intelligence / integrity / gender .... that your God... is superior. Oh how they love it. While we wage these ego wars our souls are stolen and sold to the highest bidder. Our freedoms and those of our sons and daughters are raped before our very eyes while we blindly point the finger at our brother. Keep it up. Stay the course and see how long before our entire existance is contained within a piece of plastic. Bicker like children while we are gradually reduced to mere numbers in a database to be added or deleted at the whim of the truely insane. Oh how easily we are divided by borders of ink and steel. While we embrace our divisions we are conquered as a whole. Our lives will be steadily invaded and manipulated by the ones who hold the puppet strings. "Dance little ones! Dance!" chant the men with fat fingers. As they bask in the blood of our children's children they cheer:
"Praise to the slaves of the United States of Fascism"
November 30th, 2006 at 2:54 pmI really dont understand why are you so mad at Humanist?
1) His obnoxious way of expressing himself? So what... Gregor Samsa is as polite and well-expressed as he is.
2) His questioning about americanism? Chomsky does the exact same thing (in other ways, of course and not challenging anyone up front, but it is the same message, I guess)
3) His seemingly apathy about nationalisms? I would like to have some of that.
Or what? Those 3) are really that bad? And if they were couldnt we just dismiss what we think doesnt go with our line of thinking?
November 30th, 2006 at 2:55 pm#129 - "In regard to the criminal, immoral, and heinous activities being carried out by the USA and its military,..." Comment by Humanist
********Dear Humanist - How NOBLE of you!!!! Now if you would put half as much effort into "reasoning" with the Islamofascist barbarians as you do here bashing the country which has helped more people than you've ever thought about, you could be nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize.
Give my best to your mom, notimpressedwiththeUS.....
November 30th, 2006 at 2:59 pmExcuse me?
Where did you come up with that? Do I have to be a US citizen to criticize US government? Do I have to be a Rwanda citizen to criticize that government? US citizens criticize other country´s governments all the time: Venezuela, Bolivia, France, Iraq, Cuba, North Korea, etc --- Juan C
Humanist gave up his right to vote, so he says rather than be active trying to actually try to change things. Just like those who have the right to vote but do not use it. He copped out rather than try to work for change, as so many of his fellow citizens have done. Alot of us have worked hard this last election to boot the Repukes out of the majority
He is spouting his holier than thou crap and did not even help us with his vote Juan. He abandoned his own people rather than help.
Big, Big Difference there.
November 30th, 2006 at 2:59 pmI really dont understand why are you so mad at Humanist?
Comment by Juan C — November 30, 2006 @ 2:55 pm
Juan, read my comment #171.
November 30th, 2006 at 3:01 pm#177-goodscarrier,
No, it is not my government, no matter how much you roll around on the floor.
You are right about one thing, I will always be an American. Even though, technically, an “excommunicated†one. But, I will also always be an Italian. And Portuguese. And Canadian. And Mexican. And African. And Russian. And Japanese. And so on.
But the Constitution of the United States of America will always be in my heart and I will defend it and honor it to my death. I know you don’t understand that, and I pity you for it.
Peace.
November 30th, 2006 at 3:02 pmI am not, nor have I ever claimed to be, a victim. I take full responsibility for my actions and any consequences from those actions.
Obviously you don't take any responsibility for your actions. You play the victim like a drama queen extraordinaire.
Otherwise you are just throwing out baseless accusations driven by cowardice and insecurity.
Projection, projection, projection.
Comment by Humanist — November 30, 2006 @ 2:53 pm
November 30th, 2006 at 3:03 pm1) His obnoxious way of expressing himself? So what… Gregor Samsa is as polite and well-expressed as he is.
Comment by Juan C — November 30, 2006 @ 2:55 pm
I don't get the comparison. Comparing one of the most thoughtful posters here to one of the most thoughtless?
November 30th, 2006 at 3:04 pmthe country which has helped more people than you’ve ever thought about
Comment by mighty aphrodite
Yeah, Contras were freedom fighters, twit. Marshall Plan was to help Europe, Monroe Doctrine, Vietnam, Korea, War on Drugs in Columbia, Taking the Channel of Panama, Bombing Grenade, Bombing Nicaragua, Invading Haiti for Coffee, Embargoing Cuba, Destroying Iraq...that was really some help, little person.
November 30th, 2006 at 3:04 pmGregor Samsa is as polite and well-expressed as he is.
Comment by Juan C — November 30, 2006 @ 2:55 pm
Excuse me Juan, are you calling me obnoxious? I obviously beg to disagree. I do not patronise or condescend people for not doing what *I* think they should.
See, I do not appoint myself as the standard-bearer for what is righteous.
And most importantly, I do not criticise others for doing exactly what I am doing to end the occupation of Iraq -which in Humanist's case is nothing.
How can I make this clear to you? What bothers me is his hypocrisy, and that he uses the same tactics, e.g. emotional manipulation, that preachers use to keep people blind and obedient.
He can question all he wants. He cannot set himself as the yardstick for all that is right and good.
November 30th, 2006 at 3:08 pmRealScientist,
Thanks for the compliment ;-)
November 30th, 2006 at 3:09 pm#197, Humanist: Even though, technically, an “excommunicated†one.
Technically, what is status according to US law?
By law, are you technically still an American citizen.
The truth will set us free!
Please admit your status according to US law.
I have asked this several times but you avoid answering it like Bush avoided Viet Nam.
November 30th, 2006 at 3:09 pmJuan, read my comment #171.
Comment by RealScientist
I just did. I just dont think its THAT offensive.
Big, Big Difference there.
November 30th, 2006 at 3:10 pmComment by Wayne
I agree with the vote thing. A lot of people die so we can get the opportunity to vote. So, everybody should vote. But, what are the options? National-fundamentalists that blows civilians or Limp/do nothing/moderates? Its a tough choice, I would say. I still think that your problem with Humanist is about form not content.
#182-Gregor Samsa,
An action is considered sufficient or not based on what it accomplishes.
Agreed. So, what “actions†have you taken by the way?
And no money comes from me for your bombs or bullets. One could even speculate that since that is the case then there are less bombs and bullets. That means less murder doesn’t it?
If all Americans who oppose the occupation of Iraq renounced their citizenship, the occupation -and the carnage- would still continue. Any child would understand this concept.
No, only a child would be immature and uneducated enough to think that 150,000,000 Americans simultaneously renouncing their citizenship would have no effect. I’m not saying it’s the right thing to do, but it would work.
Peace.
November 30th, 2006 at 3:10 pmComparing one of the most thoughtful posters here to one of the most thoughtless?
Comment by RealScientist
In the form. Why it is thoughtless to question everybody´s doing about the slaughter happening in Iraq? Whether he does something about it or not, is irrelevant. So, I have to protect children just because someone else is doing it?
November 30th, 2006 at 3:14 pmIn the form. Why it is thoughtless to question everybody´s doing about the slaughter happening in Iraq?
Comment by Juan C — November 30, 2006 @ 3:14 pm
In the form? In the form!?
Do you find Humanist's rants as substantial as my posts?
Do you consider Humanist's emotional manipulation to be thoughful?
Juan, one more time: it's the hypocrisy. Do you understand now?
November 30th, 2006 at 3:18 pm"Do you know how your representative voted when Bush wanted to invade? It wasn’t just republicans who sided with Bush then. Did you vote for one of those Democrats? You don’t have to tell me, but you better know the answer before you act like your conscience is clean."#
"or someone who stays in their cushy citizens life and votes for Democrats because they believe, dispite the historical record, that Democrats will somehow fix everything?"
Comment by Swordsbane — November 30, 2006 @ 2:46 pm
#
I, for one, am guilty of both the above, though I've never been a Republican.
It’s interesting to me to see the reaction of many posters (perhaps with the exception of Swordsbane at the moment) the truly reactionary and defensive response to Humanist.
Comment by impeachcheneythenbush — November 30, 2006 @ 2:27 pm
So you aren’t bothered by the hypocrisy, the lies, the absurd posturing, the baseless personal attacks waged against others, the phony victim complex, or any of Humanist’s other pathologies? Just because you agree with a few of his less garbled points? As I told Humanist earlier, he undercuts his points with all this extraneous crap, and he makes his cause look ridiculous when he makes himself look like a nut and a liar.
Comment by RealScientist — November 30, 2006 @ 2:40 pm
Perception is colored by our belief systems and our emotional status. I simply don't experience Humanist the way you do.
November 30th, 2006 at 3:18 pm#189 Juan C
I really dont understand why are you so mad at Humanist?
I think part of it was this:
I have performed the most extreme act of civil disobedience possible and to some that is just not enough.
Making a purely symbolic gesture and declaring it to be "the most extreme act of civil disobedience?" Not even close. To be considered an act of civil disobedience worthy of note, it really needs to be something that would get you thrown in the can. Most certainly so if you're trying to convince us it's "the most extreme act."
I'd be just as annoyed at a Jew who declares all other Jews to be Christ-killers, but not himself. Or a German who declares all other Germans to be Jew-killers, but not himself. It's phoney, it's dishonest, and it's self-aggrandizing.
November 30th, 2006 at 3:20 pm#184-chimpeach,
Educate yourself on what is involved in renouncing one’s citizenship. Then we can talk about the “nothing†that I’ve done.
Peace.
November 30th, 2006 at 3:20 pm#192-Wayne,
I did not “give up†my right to vote, I provided one final vote and committed to it fully. But you are entitled to your opinion.
But criticism, not really. Why don’t you tell everyone here what you have done, my pathetic friend. What changes have you affected? Please, enlighten all. Did you put a bumper-sticker on your SUV?
Peace.
November 30th, 2006 at 3:21 pmExcuse me Juan, are you calling me obnoxious? I obviously beg to disagree. I do not patronise or condescend people for not doing what *I* think they should.
Comment by Gregor Samsa
Ha ha ha! That was a terrible wrinting mistake. No, please, re-read what I posted. First I said Humanist was obnoxious and then I made a comparison in politeness and well-structured in writing. Hope you can see the difference.
How can I make this clear to you? What bothers me is his hypocrisy, and that he uses the same tactics, e.g. emotional manipulation, that preachers use to keep people blind and obedient.
November 30th, 2006 at 3:21 pmTo keep one blind and obedient you need two people: One that acts that way and other who follows. You are not following, I dont see anybody here following, so Im guessing he is not doing it that way. He is being straight about it since the first time he posted, so he is not lying, he just throws hard questioning. I appreciate that...but just that, Gregor. I understand your disliking, but I dont think it should be to dislike him THAT much to call him names...thats all.
In the form? In the form!?
Do you find Humanist’s rants as substantial as my posts?
Comment by Gregor Samsa
What does substantial has to do with the form?
Gregor, is he manipulating you? Or anyone else here?
November 30th, 2006 at 3:23 pm#197, Humanist: Even though, technically, an “excommunicated†one.
#212, Humanist: Educate yourself on what is involved in renouncing one’s citizenship. Then we can talk about the “nothing†that I’ve done
Technically, what is your status according to US law?
By law, are you technically still an American citizen.
The truth will set us free!
Please admit your status according to US law.
I have asked this several times but you avoid answering it like Bush avoided Viet Nam.
November 30th, 2006 at 3:24 pmPlease admit your status according to US law.
I have asked this several times but you avoid answering it like Bush avoided Viet Nam.
Comment by goodscarrier — November 30, 2006 @ 3:24 pm
Needless insult aside... I'd like to know the answer to that question too.
November 30th, 2006 at 3:27 pmWhy don’t you tell everyone here what you have done, my pathetic friend.
Comment by Humanist
I know Wayne called you names...but those words you wrote really dont add up too much to your argument.
November 30th, 2006 at 3:28 pmAgreed. So, what “actions†have you taken by the way?
Comment by Humanist — November 30, 2006 @ 3:10 pm
As I told you before, I don't come here to pontificate about my actions and lecture others about it. You do.
Moreover, I do not owe you any explanation, and I will not justify myself to you.
You, on the other hand, have some explaining to do.
And no money comes from me for your bombs or bullets.
If you live in the USA, you still pay income taxes. And sales taxes. Don't think for a moment you are fooling me.
Plus, this rationalisation is as weak as they come.
No, only a child would be immature and uneducated enough to think that 150,000,000 Americans simultaneously renouncing their citizenship would have no effect.
And only a child would be immature and uneducated enough to think that the Department of State would approve/grant all 150,000,000 requests. Plus, your figure is disingenuous: You are also counting the minors who have no legal way of renouncing their citizenship.
Let me re-phrase: If all adult Americans who oppose the war, and think renouncing their citizenship would contribute to stop it, actually proceeded to abandon their citizenship, the occupation of Iraq would still continue.
November 30th, 2006 at 3:29 pm#212 Humanist
Educate yourself on what is involved in renouncing one’s citizenship. Then we can talk about the “nothing†that I’ve done.
Oh, please, tell us what an ordeal it's been for you. I hope I have the stomach for it.
November 30th, 2006 at 3:29 pmOk, Im off. Take it easy, boys.
November 30th, 2006 at 3:30 pmIn regard to humanist's comments thusfar, I understand where they are coming from and I understand the motivation behind renouncing citizenship. I considered it myself because I am ashamed and utterly dismayed at the path down which my country has travelled. But there's the key phrase: "my country". After thinking about it for some time, I became angered because this is my country, too, and I refuse to lie down and surrender it without a fight. Everyone has to act in their own way, in the way that is right for them, and I will respect that but I deeply feel that there is no hope for anyone (here or abroad) if we don't fight the good fight.
Personally, I think ultimately the whole two party system needs an overhaul but there has to be a starting point for everything. A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. I am taking as many as I can and so are many others. I think the defensiveness comes into play when we are accused of not doing enough or being as culpable as all others for the state of things in America. To those of us who have been in repeated contact with our representatives regarding various global issues, who have vigorously protested and campaigned, we feel sometimes like we are banging our heads against a wall. But we persist. To be lumped in with most Americans that participate minimally (at best) in their government is a slap in the face.
I have literally lost sleep over many of the things that have been perpetrated by this administration (read: regime). And perhaps I am naive or plain foolish, but I will persevere. I can respect the path Humanist has chosen to personally express dissent and I don't deride it or try to undermine its' significance. I would merely ask for the same consideration and respect in return.
November 30th, 2006 at 3:33 pmYou are not following, I dont see anybody here following,
Comment by Juan C — November 30, 2006 @ 3:21 pm
No, but Humanist certainly is trying, and I have a problem with that.
What does substantial has to do with the form?
Comment by Juan C — November 30, 2006 @ 3:23 pm
You said you found our posts comparable in the form, and then proceeded to wonder if they were not as thoughtful.
Gregor, is he manipulating you? Or anyone else here?
Not me because I see through his rubbish. But the intention is clearly there: He is using guilt to coax people into doing what he should have done -which is getting politically involved and get the government to leave Iraq to the Iraqis.
November 30th, 2006 at 3:37 pmJuan, read my comment #171.
Comment by RealScientist
I just did. I just dont think its THAT offensive.
Juan, your posts in this thread make me wonder if you have really seen much of Humanist's posts lately. He has been relentlessly attacking others without merit, putting words in their mouths, distorting what they say, and basing accusations on outright fabrications. Lots of projection, lots of denial, and an over the top holier-than-thou attitude. I think it is telling that many people here thought he wasn't an American, as judged from his misleading words. Above all else, he has proven to be a pathological hypocrite. It does matter.
November 30th, 2006 at 3:37 pm#216-goodscarrier,
Technically, and by legal definition, I am in the process of renouncing my citizenship. I am not eligble to vote and am not legally considered a citizen, no. Pending completion of the processing of my renouncement I will then be escorted to the border, my passport and identification confiscated, and then I will be sent on my way without ability to return. Ever. Except in the event of the death, not just illness, of an immediate relative. Then and only then will I be allowed to set foot on US soil, but only for a maximum of 3 days and I would have to be escorted. Though I do not know how that works.
Now, as I said before, all of the resources for information on the process and it many technicalities are available to you.
Peace.
November 30th, 2006 at 3:38 pm#218 - Juan - I agree, but it's quite amazing how much forbearance Humanist has shown, considering how he's been attacked on this thread, from both the trolls, as well as regular posters.
November 30th, 2006 at 3:45 pmTechnically, and by legal definition, I am in the process of renouncing my citizenship. I am not eligble to vote and am not legally considered a citizen, no. Pending completion of the processing of my renouncement I will then be escorted to the border, my passport and identification confiscated, and then I will be sent on my way without ability to return.
Comment by Humanist — November 30, 2006 @ 3:38 pm
Now would that be the Mexican border, or the Canadian border? And what guarantee is there that either of these countries will take you? Or will you perhaps be set adrift on a raft, to wander the oceans stateless the rest of your life?
You know what, buddy? I think you are full of sh*t. I'm calling you a liar.
November 30th, 2006 at 3:47 pm#189 - "Chomsky does the exact same thing (in other ways, of course and not challenging anyone up front, but it is the same message, I guess)..."
Comment by JuanC.
*******Hola Juan! While you and Humanist are at it, you are welcome to your other "Comrades in the Struggle", Chomsky, Zinn, et al. These "professors" and their ilk HATE their country. But I'm sure you could form quite a nice little elitist Snob and Snobette Club.....
Buenas Tardes....
November 30th, 2006 at 3:48 pmPending completion of the processing of my renouncement I will then be escorted to the border, my passport and identification confiscated,
Comment by Humanist — November 30, 2006 @ 3:38 pm
I call absolute, unabashed claptrap. Bunk. Nonsense.
From the Department of State's website:
B. ELEMENTS OF RENUNCIATION
A person wishing to renounce his or her U.S. citizenship must voluntarily and with intent to relinquish U.S. citizenship:
1. appear in person before a U.S. consular or diplomatic officer,
2. in a foreign country (normally at a U.S. Embassy or Consulate); and
3. sign an oath of renunciation
Renunciation of U.S. Citizenship
You must be out of the USA, and go to either an embassy or a consulate to sign your oath of renunciation. You cannot do it while in the US.
and then I will be sent on my way without ability to return. Ever. Except in the event of the death, not just illness, of an immediate relative.
More claptrap. Again, from the DoS' website:
Persons intending to renounce U.S. citizenship should be aware that, unless they already possess a foreign nationality, they may be rendered stateless and, thus, lack the protection of any government. They may also have difficulty traveling as they may not be entitled to a passport from any country. Even if they were not stateless, they would still be required to obtain a visa to travel to the United States, or show that they are eligible for admission pursuant to the terms of the Visa Waiver Pilot Program (VWPP)
People who renounce US citizenship are still legally allowed back into the country, as long as they have proper documentation.
all of the resources for information on the process and it many technicalities are available to you.
Indeed. Did you think no one would check?
November 30th, 2006 at 3:49 pm#219-Gregor Samsa,
You do not have to explain yourself, but I do. Interesting logic. And, by the way, I’ve offered a ton of information, you have provided nothing but insults. That is your choice and right, of course.
Sales tax, yes. But Sales Taxes do not go to defense. Look it up.
Income tax, partially. But really that is only a philosophical point in that virtually all of the war funding is being done through debt anyway. Which means that you are not paying for it either. Your children and grandchildren will. Even if they are not even born yet.
Now, I shot down your bogus assertion and you respond that I did not provide EXACT figures. Interesting. And renouncing ones citizenship cannot be denied, except in cases where it is being done to avoid prosecution or contractual debt. I think that there are other specific reasons but they all kind of fall under that general umbrella. Now it can take a while, but it cannot be denied for reasons of retaining citizens.
Peace.
November 30th, 2006 at 3:51 pm(Her reply to Humanist)Your sweeping generalizations are understandable to those of us who hold opinions you despise. But the way you’ve treated some of the posters who hold similar views on the war and administration is surprising. Were you a temper tantrum thrower as a small child? For all of your “Peace Offerings†you are undoubtedly one of the most rigid contemporary Leftists I have encountered.
Comment by mighty aphrodite — November 30, 2006 @ 3:38 pm
Perhaps we should mark up a victory for M.A., since we have been attacking one of our own. Please see #188 by JP.
November 30th, 2006 at 3:51 pm#181 - "...beginning to realize that the “war on terra†is a hoax and that the real terrorists are occupying our White House...." Q demand A
******So who do YOU think flew the planes of September 11? Isn't great to participate in something like demonstrations? They sure must give your life alot of meaning......
November 30th, 2006 at 3:53 pm#48 Congress does have subpoena power and will use it, but they do not have the power to grant security clearances. That belongs to the Defense Security Service. And they ,in turn, rely on the department (such as the NSA) that the questions are about as to what level the classification is and what level of clearance the questioners should be granted. In addition getting a background check takes time even for Congressmen.The higher the level (secret,top secret,top secret crypto or nuclear) the longer it takes. My top secret crypto took 1.5 years to get when I served.So don't you think the administration can roadblock Congress long enough to be gone when these clearances are finally approved? Then there is the old standby "I plead the fifth".
November 30th, 2006 at 3:55 pmBut criticism, not really. Why don’t you tell everyone here what you have done, my pathetic friend. What changes have you affected? Please, enlighten all. Did you put a bumper-sticker on your SUV?
---- Humanist
Actually I participated in no less than 12 war protests and 3 verteran protests at the crap the va is pulling on vets, I helped with one of democratic contestants in this last election helping them set up their web site. I helped a few weekends for a voter registration drive this last election. Last year I drove disabled and elderly voters to the polls. I write my representatives.
I cooked thanksgiving day for one of the local homeless shelters, for those less fortunate than myself.
Last but not least, I voted.
Now what have YOU done?
November 30th, 2006 at 3:55 pm#220-chimpeach,
I answered persistent and unrelenting questions. I did not offer up my information in search of pity as you imply. That is a disingenuous assertion that I would appreciate you retracting, but will not hold my breath. I neither require, deserve, or seek your pity. Nothing I have done or said suggests such.
Now it is your choice to continue in ignorance. Just as it is my choice to not discuss my personal business with you.
Peace.
November 30th, 2006 at 3:56 pmRealScientist has you there Humanist. Also renouncing your citizenship doesn't necessarily get you booted from the country. Unless there is something sinister you haven't been stating.
Flighty far Righty are you saying that someone treated someone else poorly on this website. Pot meet kettle.
November 30th, 2006 at 3:56 pm#219-Gregor Samsa,
You do not have to explain yourself, but I do. Interesting logic. And, by the way, I’ve offered a ton of information, you have provided nothing but insults.
Comment by Humanist — November 30, 2006 @ 3:51 pm
Sorry, liar, it looks like Gregor just proved that you are a liar with some very solid information.
Good work, Gregor, thanks for looking up that stuff.
November 30th, 2006 at 3:57 pmPerhaps we should mark up a victory for M.A., since we have been attacking one of our own. Please see #188 by JP.
Comment by impeachcheneythenbush — November 30, 2006 @ 3:51 pm
You aren't calling Humanist one of our own, are you? Puh-leaze! The guy is a lying nut job, a first rate troll.
November 30th, 2006 at 3:58 pm#226 - " .....Pending completion of the processing of my renouncement I will then be escorted to the border, my passport and identification confiscated, and then I will be sent on my way without ability to return. Ever. Except in the event of the death,....." Comment by Humanist
******Can I come to the border and CHEER? Or is restrained applause the protocol?
November 30th, 2006 at 3:58 pm#225 Humanist
I am not eligble to vote and am not legally considered a citizen, no. Pending completion of the processing of my renouncement I will then be escorted to the border, my passport and identification confiscated, and then I will be sent on my way without ability to return. Ever.
And what, in real terms, will that have accomplished? How will that do anything to lessen the senseless killing in Iraq or anywhere else? Like I said, it's a symbolic gesture. I could douse myself in gasoline and light myself on fire, and it would make your symbolic gesture look sick by comparison. Would it make Bush bring the troops home? Nope. Would it cause him to even stop and reconsider what he's doing for a second? Nope. So what good would it do? Nothing.
November 30th, 2006 at 4:02 pmCheer up!! The good news is: we don’t miss you.
Comment by mighty aphrodite — November 30, 2006 @ 3:38 pm
You can leave too. I won't miss you.
I don't have to agree with Humanist giving up his citizenship to admire him for making the choice. A lot of people here make it sound like it was no more difficult than deciding what color shirt to wear today. Think for a moment what he's given up for his principles. That puts him one up on just about everyone here, wrong or right.
November 30th, 2006 at 4:02 pmAnd, by the way, I’ve offered a ton of information, you have provided nothing but insults.
Comment by Humanist — November 30, 2006 @ 3:51 pm
You have not offered a ton of information, but a ton of condescension. And if strong rebuttals hurt your psyche so much that you call them insults, don't post comments in a forum meant for debate.
But really that is only a philosophical point in that virtually all of the war funding is being done through debt anyway.
Funny, you always find a way to exculpate yourself, and instead of taking responsibility you call it a "philosophical point".
I shot down your bogus assertion and you respond that I did not provide EXACT figures.
I did not ask for exact figures. I said your figure was disingenuous. You can understand the difference, can't you?
And renouncing ones citizenship cannot be denied, except in cases where it is being done to avoid prosecution or contractual debt.
More bunk. Once more, from the DoS' website:
A person who wants to renounce U.S. citizenship cannot decide to retain some of the privileges of citizenship, as this would be logically inconsistent with the concept of citizenship. Thus, such a person can be said to lack a full understanding of renouncing citizenship and/or lack the necessary intent to renounce citizenship, and the Department of State will not approve a loss of citizenship in such instances.
If you want to retain some rights (like coming back to reside legally without filing proper paperwork), your request will be denied. Not a word of avoiding prosecution or debts.
November 30th, 2006 at 4:05 pm#228-RealScientist,
Another accusation with no basis in reality or fact. Good lord I hope that you are not one of the scientists working on global warming or the planet is doomed.
I can’t say that I appreciate your concern for where I will go next since you only sarcastically offer it up in an attempt to insult anyway. Attacking that which you do not understand. Another trait that is incompatible with the philosophies of science. Interesting.
Peace.
November 30th, 2006 at 4:05 pmI don’t have to agree with Humanist giving up his citizenship to admire him for making the choice.
Comment by Swordsbane — November 30, 2006 @ 4:02 pm
You actually believe his crap?
November 30th, 2006 at 4:09 pm#230-Gregor Samsa,
Please post ALL of the documentation that you just pulled one paragraph from. You attempt to imply that this is a one-step, one-form, process and it is far from that.
However, that part about the visa, can you provide me with the section and paragraph that you cut and pasted that from? That snippet implies something that is contrary to what my legal representation is telling me.
And please, Gregor, check all you want. I encourage you to.
Peace.
November 30th, 2006 at 4:13 pm#236 Humanist
I did not offer up my information in search of pity as you imply. That is a disingenuous assertion that I would appreciate you retracting, but will not hold my breath. I neither require, deserve, or seek your pity. Nothing I have done or said suggests such.
You've got a comprehension problem. Deal with it.
November 30th, 2006 at 4:13 pm#226, Humanist: Pending completion of the processing of my renouncement
Your process of renouncement is not complete.
Please answer the simple question of whether or not by law you are a US citizen.
Please state what your legal status is as one in the process of completing the processing of renouncement.
Please truthful and stop avoiding this.
November 30th, 2006 at 4:14 pmThink for a moment what he’s given up for his principles.
Comment by Swordsbane — November 30, 2006 @ 4:02 pm
Let's assume he actually did give up his citizenship -which I doubt, given the information by the Department of State. His loss would be what, exactly?
How is US citizenship better than, say, Canadian? Or British? Or Australian? How does US citizenship make you a better person?
November 30th, 2006 at 4:14 pmYou actually believe his crap?
Comment by RealScientist — November 30, 2006 @ 4:09 pm
Believe what, that he doesn't like the United States or that he's renouncing his citizenship? I think he's made it abundantly clear he does not like the US, and as for renouncing his citizenship, only he knows that for sure, but he sounds serious, and I'm willing to believe that it was a bit harder a decision to make than what to eat for breakfast in the morning.
November 30th, 2006 at 4:16 pmPlease post ALL of the documentation that you just pulled one paragraph from.
Comment by Humanist — November 30, 2006 @ 4:13 pm
I provided a link. Everyone can click on it and read for themselves. That is what links are for.
However, that part about the visa, can you provide me with the section and paragraph that you cut and pasted that from?
Follow the link. It's right there. You are at least able to do that, aren't you?
November 30th, 2006 at 4:17 pmGregor Samsa,
Humanist is not just a flaming diva-queen hypocrite: Humanist is a POSEUR.
All this time Humanist has been using the 2nd person with regard to Americans when all along Humanist should have been using the 1st person.
November 30th, 2006 at 4:20 pmHow is US citizenship better than, say, Canadian? Or British? Or Australian? How does US citizenship make you a better person?
Comment by Gregor Samsa — November 30, 2006 @ 4:14 pm
I never said it did. I happen to believe that being a US citizen is better, at least for me, than not being one, but if he's giving up his citizenship, then obviously for him, it's better to not be a citizen.
I said that making the choice to do it couldn't have been easy, and if giving up citizenship ISN't a tough choice, then what is so great about being an American? Making a tough choice because of your principles IS something to be admired.
November 30th, 2006 at 4:21 pmSwordsbane
Obviously, Humanist is legally an American.
Obviously, Humanist is a liar for describing Americans in the second person instead of the first person.
November 30th, 2006 at 4:29 pmChoice Excerpts from the American Humanist from the TP blog Contrary to Previous Reports, Cheney Was ‘Basically Summoned’ By Saudi Crown Prince
For a better read, substitute all 2nd person pronouns with 1st person.
NOTE: The hypocracy is pungent reader beware.
Your Constitution describes the hierarchy quite clearly and succinctly. There are those who will say that your Constitution is being compromised and bypassed. To those I have to say, whose fault is that?
It is time for americans to rise up and regain their control, civility, and dignity. The honor you once had, however, will have to be re-earned. But this will be a good start.
No, it means that YOU are their bitch. And, more disturbingly, you have accepted that position without resistance. But you will exercise your “right†to complain. Just before, of course, you willingly bend over in compliance to whatever it is “they†choose to do to you next.
I don’t know about you, but I would happily lose my job, or my spouse - especially one who would abandon you during such a time - if it would save the life of one Iraqi child, or one misled soldier.
I will take that challenge. I will quit my job this instant if you can assure me that it will save Iraqi or american lives. Or, if you stage a general strike I will join and support you.
However, I do not support your “right†to complacency when it affects the lives and well being of others. You can go on being offended by my vociferous objection to that practice.
You all ran into this adventure like your ass was on fire. Now you want to crawl out of it at a pace that makes a snail look like a rocket. It seems to me that you have your priorities reversed. Stated another way, you were in an extreme rush to kill, but you are taking an unending pause before stopping the murder.
I implore you to begin the change now. Wake up, speak up, and start doing something substantial. Please, I beg of you.
I’ll tell you what there sport, stop the murder that is occurring in your name in Iraq. Then apologize to each and every Iraqi for murdering their friends and family, maiming them and their fellow citizens, and torturing the entire country based upon lies that you discovered 3 years ago (if not before) but took your sweet time to address.
List specifically how many Iraqis each and every member of the bush administration has personally killed. Specifically, of course.
No Iraqi has died at the hand of bush, or cheney, or rumsfeld, or wolfowitz. No, each and every Iraqi who has been murdered in your name has been murdered by a fellow american.
November 30th, 2006 at 4:42 pmWhat the f*ck? That prick Humanist is an American citizen. Just like I said he was. Hmmmm. I am really getting tired of being right (correct) all the time.
Humanist,
You are a sad sack of shEt you know that. You come in here an spew all of your anti-American drivel and think you are holier than thou. Go f*ck yourself with a razor barbed baseball bat you jack off.
I wish they would remove your ability to post here when they take your ID and passport. You aren't covered by the First Ammendmant anymore, since you aren't an American any longer. Jerk.
November 30th, 2006 at 4:43 pmI wish they would remove your ability to post here when they take your ID and passport. You aren’t covered by the First Ammendmant anymore, since you aren’t an American any longer. Jerk.
Comment by SpudgeBoy — November 30, 2006 @ 4:43 pm
Way to represent the American Ideal SpudgeBoy. One of the reasons we're hated in other countries is because we have an annoying tendency to not practice what we preach.
November 30th, 2006 at 4:53 pmThis pissing match is getting old.
Excuse me while I put some water in Mini Aphid's mother's dish...........
November 30th, 2006 at 5:05 pm#260-goodscarrier,
I have given up my citizenship in my effort to save the lives of Iraqis and americans. You treat that as trite, that is your problem.
Now, explain how any of those quotes that you provided are hypocritical. If anything what is shows is that I have been consistently on point. But, if you disagree then feel free to challenge, but be specific.
Peace.
November 30th, 2006 at 5:16 pm#262-SpudgeBoy,
I truly hope that your vocabulary is a result of poor schooling and not due to wanting intellect.
Here’s something to ponder, spoken by some other folks who renounced their citizenship. Though I do not offer that up so as to place myself in their company, because I am not worthy of such, but just so you have some context:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. – excerpt from the Declaration of Independence.
Read the whole document, though. It should prove enlightening.
May peace be with us all.
November 30th, 2006 at 5:22 pmI have given up my citizenship in my effort to save the lives of Iraqis and americans. --- hypocritist
Explain to me exactly how that saves Iraqi lives.
Also I answered your inane question to me at post 216, answer the question I shot back at you in 216.
November 30th, 2006 at 5:23 pmWhat exactly have YOU done?
Now, I answered your questions and have been subjected to endless insults, baseless accusations, unqualified judgments, and disingenuous insinuations. A number of times I had to check to see if somehow I had become “un-banned†and stumbled back upon RedState.Org the vitriol was so intense.
But I can see where only 4 posters even attempted to answer my simple questions of:
1) How many here have contacted their representatives, both current and incoming, about an immediate and full withdrawal of your military from Iraq?
2) How many here have contacted their representatives, both current and incoming, about your pending offensive military action against Iran?
How “progressive†is a movement that does nothing? My questions were intended to find out what is happening. Based upon the answers received it would seem to be very little, if anything. Therein probably lay the answer as to why the results have been so disappointing to you, and deadly to the Iraqis. Now that the Iranians are in your sights, can you really in good conscience accept your position?
May peace be with us all.
November 30th, 2006 at 5:32 pmWayne,
I'm beginning to think Humanist is a convicted felon -- not eligible to vote.
I could be wrong, of course.
November 30th, 2006 at 5:32 pmCan I come to the border and CHEER? Or is restrained applause the protocol?
Comment by mighty aphrodite
Since you're already there to drop off your clients when their white-collar cases go sour (as they inevitably do, with you as their lawyerette), maybe you could give him a lift?
November 30th, 2006 at 5:33 pmDear Spudge - My congrats! I didn't read Hisarrogant as well as you did!! I kept picturing an angst ridden "idealist" with bad teeth in a one room flat surrounded by Che posters. More likely, he's a child of privelege who has led a meaningless existence and would no more sacrifice for his ideals than take a cold shower.
November 30th, 2006 at 5:37 pmMore likely, he’s a child of privelege who has led a meaningless existence and would no more sacrifice for his ideals than take a cold shower.
Says the private-school dweeb.
You can't even spell priviledge (Privi - private, ledge-law) lawyerette?
Hilarious!
November 30th, 2006 at 5:42 pmgood one barfly. As for Humanist. Believe him or not. He's sparked responses. The thread is about Bush's continued ignorance and Humanist pushes that (along with 10,000 other obscurities).
Look, he's even pissed off Flighty far Righty so he can't be all bad.
November 30th, 2006 at 5:42 pmlook at us all, trembling in fear. i fear that i am wrong and so i bark at another, i fear that some people wielding weopons will come and take me to a camp where i will be tortured to death in order to extricate some false confession which may be highly publicized in order to reinforce the fear-doctrine so that some act against other people can be justified. as long as the enemy is another person, or some collection of people, then i will forever be under the sway of a delusion. the only enemy i have ever met who has coerced me into not speaking the truth (as i see it) has been my fear. it has compelled me to do things which hurt others. it has compelled me to hurt myself. it compels me, if i allow it, to sit here on my computer and complain, insult, and patronize. it will compel me, if i listen to it, to wake in the middle of the night in a cold sweat, wondering if i'm safe, if i'm free, if i'm ok.
so what good does fear do?
what will stop this war? a democratic majority in congress? a letter writing campaign perhaps? an all-out uprising? an israeli giving a flower to a palestinian suicide bomber? the sudden explosion of the sun?
what will stop the war within us?
November 30th, 2006 at 5:46 pm"maybe you could give him a lift?" Comment by barfly
******We've missed you bargnat!!! How are things in Spring Valley? The only lift I would be willing to waste on Humanist is a swift kick to Avenida Revolucion in TJ. (Maybe he could find "gainful" employment assisting Middle Eastern terrorists utilizing the Southern Border.....)
November 30th, 2006 at 5:47 pmHumanist makes some good points about the tremendous harm this nation, our nation has done to the world, but geeeeezzzz the condescension just drips from his pen.
November 30th, 2006 at 5:47 pmI answered your questions and have been subjected to endless insults, baseless accusations, unqualified judgments, and disingenuous insinuations.
Comment by Humanist — November 30, 2006 @ 5:32 pm
You come here to call people in this forum murderers, rapists, insinuate that we want to kill all Iraqis, that we ahet Arabs/Muslims... and when someone finally strikes back, you throw yourself on the floor crying foul and feigning to be the victim of an unjust, unprovoked attack.
What a passive-aggressive twit you are.
A number of times I had to check to see if somehow I had become “un-banned†and stumbled back upon RedState.Org the vitriol was so intense.
Only freepers and redstaters have made as many vile insinuations as you have. Stop pretending you are the victim or that you have the high moral ground.
But I can see where only 4 posters even attempted to answer my simple questions of:
Why would any of us submit ourselves to your judgement? Why should we give in to your manipulative attempts at making us atone for a crime we haven't committed?
Now that the Iranians are in your sights, can you really in good conscience accept your position?
More vile insinuations. You come here looking for a fight but then cry like a baby when you find it.
If giving up your citizenship is causing you this much anxiety, what you need is professional help, not a bar fight.
November 30th, 2006 at 5:47 pm#238 goodscarrier
If that was something Humanist posted earlier, I apologize for being so easy on him. What a freakin' jerk.
Shorter Humanist: "Ooh, I'm so mad about what's happening in my country and I don't have the nerve to try to change things. I know, I'll just say it's not my country anymore and then I can blame everyone in it for what's going on. That way I'll be superior to them!"
What a douche.
November 30th, 2006 at 5:48 pmWe’ve missed you bargnat!!!
Thanks, mighty aphid.
November 30th, 2006 at 5:50 pmFast-forward two years:
November 30th, 2006 at 5:52 pm"Now, about reparation." What would be an appropriate compensation for all the harm done in Iraq by the US since the US-led invasion? $500 billion, one trillion dollars (that's 1 and 12 zeros). Because it’s all down to you guys, directly or indirectly. And how much would that be per US family as a one-off payment?
When you guys belatedly realise how you were deceived (9-11 was false flag to get the population psyched up to accept an Iraq invasion), I wouldn’t be surprised if the US didn't divide into say six separate and independent nations. "When you stare into the Abyss long enough the Abyss starts to stare back at you." Anyone that thinks Iraq can't get worse is an optimist. Happy Thanksgiving.
How are things in Spring Valley?
MA
"On a clear day, you can see El Cajon . . ." to paraphrase.
November 30th, 2006 at 5:53 pmApparently you think you are more equal than others and are better than anybody around you. Go f*ck yourself.
November 30th, 2006 at 5:54 pm#254 -- You come here looking for a fight but then cry like a baby when you find it. -- Gregor Samsa
Good post.
November 30th, 2006 at 5:56 pmMy vocabulary comes from being sick and tired of holier than thou pieces of shEt like you.
November 30th, 2006 at 5:56 pm#259 Andrew Milner
When you guys belatedly realise how you were deceived
"You guys"? Oh great, another one. And what country are you from, Andrew, that you don't know that Thanksgiving was last week and you think that 'we guys' are all to blame for what Bush did?
November 30th, 2006 at 5:58 pmI answered your questions and have been subjected to endless insults, baseless accusations, unqualified judgments, and disingenuous insinuations.
Comment by Humanist
I guess it's time to give the "it's the internet silly, anyone can claim anything," speech again.
Exhibit "A": Mighty Aphrodite.
I'm a former carny, and have known many swindlers, and confidence men in my time. Appeals or assertions that rely heavily upon anecdotal evidence are highly suspect, and on deeper inspection, usually half-true at best. I could care less about your supposed actions, as it all sounds like a "tale" to me. If you have something substantive to add - or even a lame joke, ok. But don't try pushing your weight around moralistically, saying "I've done this," or "I've done that" as your backstop. Cause if ya' can't prove it, it's all bunk.
November 30th, 2006 at 6:02 pmWe don't even practice what we preach inside our own friggin' country. Once Americans have a real democracy for the people and of the people again, I don't think we need to be worrying about spreading our kind of democracy around the world. The reason we are hated is because we kill people because of their religion and the color of their skin, not because we tell some worthless piece of crap on a message board to f*ck off.
November 30th, 2006 at 6:02 pmThe reason we are hated is because we kill people because of their religion and the color of their skin, not because we tell some worthless piece of crap on a message board to f*ck off.
Comment by SpudgeBoy — November 30, 2006 @ 6:02 pm
Did I say I was worried? or that you should be? and I never put those comments in the same light as murdering people around the globe or meddling in the affairs of other nations. I said that your comments do not reflect the image we tell other nations we subscribe to. Our government being evil doesn't absolve all lesser indescretions. One of the ideals of America is freedom and equality for all men. Killing people in other countries without reason is one way to desecrate that ideal. Another, lesser way is to demand everyone else shut up because you have a particular badge of citizenship and they don't.
November 30th, 2006 at 6:13 pmDoes anyone else think it's a coincidence that Humanist disappeared immediately when I wondered if he might be a convicted felon?
November 30th, 2006 at 6:15 pmAppeals or assertions that rely heavily upon anecdotal evidence are highly suspect, and on deeper inspection, usually half-true at best.
Comment by barfly — November 30, 2006 @ 6:02 pm
Well said. I would like to add, arguments whose main support is an appeal to someone's emotions -whether guilt, fear, hate, etc.- are also highly suspect, and manipulative upon closer inspection.
People making these appeals do it to validate themselves and gain control, not to actually address let alone solve a problem. These people will look for a sympathetic audience since it is more likely to be receptive to the message; which is why Humanist is here and not preaching to the freepers -the people who actually need convincing.
November 30th, 2006 at 6:16 pmSomehow I get the impression that our Humanitarian friend is just finishing up a creative lit or flowery debate or maybe fiction and prose class, needs a project to graduate. Hence the flowery flourish and bravado. I pity the poor instructor who has to try and grade it.
November 30th, 2006 at 6:19 pmDo felons get this much time to be on a computer. Maybe white collar criminals do. Humanist, are you really Duke Cunningham?
November 30th, 2006 at 6:19 pmZ - can felons take flowery debate courses?
November 30th, 2006 at 6:21 pmOne di*khead on a forum does not equate to everybody. I told one dude to STFU, not everybody in the world who isn't an American.
November 30th, 2006 at 6:22 pmOh yeah, and back on topic. Bush does remind me of Tanya Harding, in a wierd sort of way, you know, trailer trash deep down.
November 30th, 2006 at 6:22 pm#273 - "Humanist, are you really Duke Cunningham?" Comment by hellinabucket
*******Dear Ms. Bucket - Unfortunately, the my former Congresscrook was Duke Cunningham. For as big a thief, disgrace and POS that he is - Cunningham never attained the elitist tone Humanist employs.
#270 - "Does anyone else think it’s a coincidence that Humanist disappeared immediately when I wondered if he might be a convicted felon? Comment by Zooey
Zooette - Maybe... but I noticed Humanist disappeared when Gregor exposed his BS with the State Dept website....
#267 - "I’m a former carny, and have known many swindlers, and confidence men in my time..." Comment by barfly
November 30th, 2006 at 6:37 pm*******Why am I not surprised?
One di*khead on a forum does not equate to everybody. I told one dude to STFU, not everybody in the world who isn’t an American.
Comment by SpudgeBoy — November 30, 2006 @ 6:22 pm
What you said was:
"I wish they would remove your ability to post here when they take your ID and passport. You aren’t covered by the First Ammendmant anymore, since you aren’t an American any longer. Jerk."
That implies that anyone without a passport or ID and/or not protected by the First Ammendment should not be allowed to post. If you just meant Humanist, then it would have taken a lot less effort to just say
November 30th, 2006 at 6:39 pm"Humanist, I wish they would remove your ability to post"
#270-Zooey,
Interesting approach. Throw out a baseless and slanderous accusation, wait a minute, and then claim that a non-denial means that the “accused†is guilty.
Do you sit on the military tribunals? You seem qualified.
To answer your question, no I have never been convicted of or accused of a felony. Now, have you stopped raping your child?
Peace.
November 30th, 2006 at 6:40 pmWho or what disappeared from this thread?
November 30th, 2006 at 6:42 pm#272-RUCerious,
More speculation from the under qualified. Good luck to you on that.
Peace.
November 30th, 2006 at 6:42 pmNow, have you stopped raping your child?
Peace.
Comment by Humanist
Keep meaning to stop that.
You may not be a felon, but you are hiding something. Maybe someone else here cares enough to try to find out what.
Piece.
November 30th, 2006 at 6:48 pmDo felons get this much time to be on a computer. Maybe white collar criminals do. Humanist, are you really Duke Cunningham?
Comment by hellinabucket
Not all convicted felons are still in prison.
Z - can felons take flowery debate courses?
Comment by RUCerious
I have met stunningly smart and articulate felons.
Disclaimer: I am only answering these questions, I am not continuing to speculate on whether or not Humanist is a felon himself. It seems he is merely full of himself.
November 30th, 2006 at 6:51 pmI continue to provide only truth, many here continue to attack with slander, baseless accusations, and asinine speculations.
By the way, Gregor, give me your name and address and I will allow my attorney to contact you with the specific details of my situation. I have nothing to hide and have never claimed such. Will that do it for you? Hard evidence, maybe even photographic proof? If you would have only had such stringent requirements about Iraq there would be 600,000 plus LESS murdered children, women, and men.
But I realize that is not important to you. Go ahead, puff up your feathers, it seems to make you feel better.
Peace.
November 30th, 2006 at 6:51 pmSwordsbane,
Unlike Humanist, I mean exactly what I say and don't lump large groups of people together. You cut off a keep word that is directly in front of my quote, so let me fix it for you.
My comment was directed specifically at Humanist and not one single other person.
You will notice that in my post there is a section not directed at anybody. But, then I address Humanist directly. So, Humanist is clearly the subject once I address him. If you want to misinterpret my comments and take my quote out of context, that is your prerogative, but it doesn't make it correct.
November 30th, 2006 at 6:52 pmYeah Gregor, why'd you personally kill all those Iraqis?
November 30th, 2006 at 6:57 pm#285-SpudgeBoy,
Please specifically point to the deceptions you accuse me of. Otherwise, and let me use your own language so that I'm certain that you will understand, "STFU" and "Go f*ck yourself" you "jack off" "jerk".
Clear enough for you there sport?
Peace.
November 30th, 2006 at 6:58 pm#286 - SpudgeBoy,
November 30th, 2006 at 6:59 pmI wonder ever why?
#283-Zooey,
Yes, why bother yourself with the truth. It seems that for you malicious slander and innuendo is just too much fun to resist.
Many here have accused me of acting “morally superiorâ€. I know that I do not feel that way so I know that I do not act that way. However, with moral giants like Zooey around, I now see how it can appear that way.
Good luck to you on that.
Peace.
November 30th, 2006 at 7:02 pmYou will notice that in my post there is a section not directed at anybody. But, then I address Humanist directly. So, Humanist is clearly the subject once I address him. If you want to misinterpret my comments and take my quote out of context, that is your prerogative, but it doesn’t make it correct.
Comment by SpudgeBoy — November 30, 2006 @ 6:52 pm
I'm well aware that your comment was directed at Humanist, but the REASON you used for saying he should be denied posting rights was that he was no longer an American and not covered under the First Ammendment, and his right to post should be taken away WHEN THEY TAKE HIS ID AND PASSPORT.
Implication, however is what can be inferred from what you said and applied to other situations. Now, if that what you SAID is correct and that is WHY he should shut up, then by implication you mean ALL people who are not Americans. You can either stand by what you said, or you can rephrase what you said. You can't have it both ways.
November 30th, 2006 at 7:05 pmNo, because I never acused you of decptions. I have said numerous times that my problem with you is the fact that you are holier than thou and lump all Americans in as one group.
In fact I have been telling your dumb ass that for two frickin' days straight. The fact that you still don't know what the hell my problem is with you is only a testament to your stupidity. Jack off.
November 30th, 2006 at 7:05 pm#292 - SpudgeBoy,
November 30th, 2006 at 7:09 pmWhat did I do?
#292-SpudgeBoy,
Since your memory seems to be lacking, here is a little something from your post #285:
Unlike Humanist, I mean exactly what I say
Now, if you do not see how that accuses me of deception, then I recommend that you purchase from the bookstore your first dictionary.
Peace.
November 30th, 2006 at 7:09 pmHowever, with moral giants like Zooey around, I now see how it can appear that way.
Good luck to you on that.
Peace.
Comment by Humanist
Hey, I said I was going to stop raping my kid SOON.
November 30th, 2006 at 7:11 pmI stand by what I said. If you want to reinterpret it, that is up to you. It was directed at one fu*k person. If you are offended because of your reinterpretation of what I said, I can't help that.
November 30th, 2006 at 7:11 pmNothing mysterious about his parting. He is a homophobic hate monger that needed to be expunged.
November 30th, 2006 at 7:12 pmWell, I’m obviously causing more harm than good here, so I’ll depart.
This, of course, offers up the easy target for the parting shots so make them good lest you disappoint yourself.
May God, Allah, or Buddha bless and keep you.
and
May peace be with us all.
November 30th, 2006 at 7:15 pmNothing. ??? #292 isn't directed at you.
November 30th, 2006 at 7:15 pmI guess you could take that to mean what you say, unless you read the entire sentence.
Once again, you will see that I have a problem with you lumping everybody together as I have been telling you for two fu*king days. Dumb fu*k.
November 30th, 2006 at 7:18 pmWhy? We aren't the people who care about other peoples religions. That would onec again be the redstate people.
November 30th, 2006 at 7:21 pmAnd Humanist may you soon enjoy the blessings of Heavenly rest.
November 30th, 2006 at 7:22 pmBy the way, Gregor, give me your name and address and I will allow my attorney to contact you with the specific details of my situation.
Comment by Humanist — November 30, 2006 @ 6:51 pm
Yeah, sure, I will provide all my particulars on a public board.
If I wanted to do that, I'd have an account in MySpace.
Do you want my phone number too?
If you would have only had such stringent requirements about Iraq there would be 600,000 plus LESS murdered children, women, and men.
If you had the courage to stay and fight the fight, there would probably be 600,000+ less murdered children, women, and men. Instead, you decided it wasn't worth it.
But I realize that is not important to you. Go ahead, puff up your feathers, it seems to make you feel better.
Stop projecting, Humanist. I am not the one who is here posting long, self-glorifying comments, and trying to put everyone else down.
Since you insist on bringing this up, I found another jewel in the DoS' website:
Those persons who, after careful consideration of the contents of this letter and its enclosures, desire to renounce U.S. citizenship may contact the U.S. embassy to make an appointment, bearing in mind that they will be asked to demonstrate poof of foreign residence, or failing that, evidence that they intend to enter the United States as an alien with documentation t that effect. Moreover, a person in possession of a U.S. passport will be asked to submit that passport to the U.S. consular officer for cancellation. If the certificate of loss of nationality is approved by the U.S. Department of State, the individual's name will be entered in the Department's name check system and they will be ineligible for U.S. passports in the future.
Renunciation of U.S. Citizenship by Persons Claiming a Right of Residence in the U.S.
Not only do you have to renounce your citizenship in an American embassy/consulate in a foreign country, you are asked to surrender your American passport for its cancellation -presumably at this point you hold the citizenship of the country where you are, or at least have legal residence.
So, given these requirements in renouncing the American citizenship, there is no way you are still an American citizen living in the US simply waiting for the completion of the process.
November 30th, 2006 at 7:25 pm#304 - Gregor,
November 30th, 2006 at 7:35 pmYou use too many words to describe my emotions towards this phony - would "Drop dead" suffice.
#243, Humanist: I have given up my citizenship in my effort to save the lives of Iraqis and americans. I have given up my citizenship in my effort to save the lives of Iraqis and americans. You treat that as trite, that is your problem.
Trite?
I think it is fucting stupid.
We all know you are in fact a US citizen who has failed to act but is exempt from the very criticism and scorn you are heaping upon people.
Humanist your mask has been ripped off by your own sloppy, lazy, mind.
Back to your citizenship which you are avoiding like Bush avoid Viet Nam.
Your process of renouncement is supposedely (snicker) not complete.
Please (snicker) answer the simple question of whether or not by law you are a US citizen.
Please (snicker) state what your legal status is as one in the process of completing the processing of renouncement.
Please truthful and stop avoiding this (ROTFLAMOL!).
November 30th, 2006 at 7:41 pmThe reason we are hated is because we kill people because of their religion and the color of their skin, not because we tell some worthless piece of crap on a message board to f*ck off.
Comment by SpudgeBoy
Wrong. Your country kills for american corporation interests and geopolitic advantage. You have killed caucasians in Kosovo and (if you ask me) 3000 americans in 9/11.
November 30th, 2006 at 7:44 pmGood job, folks in taking care of Humanist. Another idiot wont be questioning here... /sarcasm off.
November 30th, 2006 at 7:46 pmHumanist: No Iraqi has died at the hand of bush, or cheney, or rumsfeld, or wolfowitz. No, each and every Iraqi who has been murdered in your name has been murdered by a fellow american.
Clearly, you are an apologist for Messers Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Wolfowitz.
Assuming all goes well, will you be chanting `Ho ho ho Donny Rumsfeld should be let go!!' at The Hauge?
You are collectively blaming all fit Americans (including your family) except yourself since you are in the process of renouncing your US citizenship?
You are saying it is our civic duty to uprise and all you have ever done is put yourself in a BOGUS state of statelessness.
My fellow American, you are seriously screwed up.
Man-without-a-country: Bull Shit!!
November 30th, 2006 at 7:52 pmWhat? You mean it is because we told one piece of crap on a message board to fu*k off? j/k
I think you are correct. We start stupid wars, like Iraq to feed the American military industrial complex.
Weren't the white people in Kosovo Muslims? That would put them in the killing for religion category.
I also think that George W Bush and friends pulled off 9/11 as a false flag event, but be careful, TP will tell us to stop it.
November 30th, 2006 at 8:07 pmHoly crap, I agree with goodscarrier. Yes, I admit it.
I'm feeling a little dizzy right now from the cognitive dissonance, I'm sure it will pass.
November 30th, 2006 at 8:19 pmWheres my answer?
I also think that George W Bush and friends pulled off 9/11 as a false flag event, but be careful, TP will tell us to stop it.
Comment by SpudgeBoy
I thought you were going to fight my argument. You shut my mouth.
November 30th, 2006 at 8:27 pm#309 - goodscarrier,
November 30th, 2006 at 8:30 pmAt the current rate, approximately 67 Iraqis are slain by their fellow citizens each day. Another 29 are slain by armed forces consisting of both Coalition forces and Iraqi militia. Most of this last group are insurgents who specialize in the murder of innocents in the former. This is a hornets ‘ nest created by BushCo, but our armed forces have acted overall in a restrained manner.
Now, a final thought about the Humanist issue. What the heck is so important to know his background? The first thing you do in a discussion is ask for the oppponent´s nationality...as that has to do with what? His nationality invalidates his argument? Thats just dumb.
Now, his way of expressing can be annoying and disrespectful, but no more than what everyone of us here has done at some time.
This thread really doesnt look like ThinkProgress if MA is cheering some of you.
November 30th, 2006 at 8:39 pmJuan C,
I believe 9/11 was an inside job. I don't mention it here, because TP doesn't like it.
I think there is way too much evidence to prove your theory. I can remember 9/11 like it was this morning. The very second the first building fell my girlfriend and I knew that it was a false flag. The World Trade Center buildings were designed to withstand the impact of a commercial airliner. Not to mention that no other steel frame building has fallen due to fire before or after 9/11.
November 30th, 2006 at 8:44 pmThe very second the first building fell my girlfriend and I knew that it was a false flag.
Comment by SpudgeBoy
A professor told me the exact same thing that very same day. When the second plane crashed, he said...this was done by the gringos.
November 30th, 2006 at 8:49 pmNow that right there is the key. We have all done it from time to time, but Humanist does it just about every single time he has posted.
Even mighty aphrodite doesn't lump us all in together. It is not an accurate representation of the United States of America. We are not all the same, we don't all think the same and as soon as we do, then we are truly fu*ked.
November 30th, 2006 at 8:52 pmI thought you were going to fight my argument. You shut my mouth.
--- Juan C
hehe
Quite a few of us believe something wasn't right with 9/11, Juan.
And yes, most wars and engagements, minus ones like wwII, were for us corporate interests, especially almost all the latin american invasions.
November 30th, 2006 at 9:00 pmHis nationality invalidates his argument?
Comment by Juan C — November 30, 2006 @ 8:39 pm
Juan, one more time: It's the hypocrisy and self-righteousness. He can criticise all he wants, he cannot prop himself up as a yardstick for everything good and right when he doesn't live up to his own standards. That is what invalidates his argument.
Let me tell you a story from my dark past. My father's second wife has a sister -let's call her Milena. She was married to a man we'll call Frantisek.
Frantisek was a pastor, a missionary, and as such spent all his time saving souls, spreading the word, and prodding people towards doing good.
One day, the bombshell: A married woman in his group (I used to call it a cult, but that's a whole other story) was pregnant with his baby. Frantisek and this anonymous woman had carried out the affair for at least a year.
Other people from the group begged Milena to forgive Frantisek, to take him back: He was a man of god, he spoke so well, said such beautiful things, he was saving their souls, showing them the way to heaven and eternal salvation, the girls (they had 3 little girls) needed a father.
As young as I was, I was flabbergasted: These people were willing to beg and cover for a cheating, lying, hypocritical scumbag, as long as he said the things they wanted to hear? It blew my mind away.
Humanist is no different. He says things you want to hear and you are ready to overlook his hypocrisy and double-standard. That is what emotional manipulation is all about. It was wrong then, it still wrong now.
Different times, same Frantisek.
November 30th, 2006 at 9:02 pmThat is what invalidates his argument.
Gregor Samsa
WHY? If a convict tells you: It´s really bad to steal or rape. You would say: You are a convict, that invalidates your statement. It doesnt matter who says that, the content of the message is the important thing, and his message was important, interesting and challenging.
He says things you want to hear and you are ready to overlook his hypocrisy and double-standard. That is what emotional manipulation is all about.
A lot of times, my decisions are emotional based, such as many of yours, Im sure, and my surroundings manipulate me, yes. So what? Your posts change my way of thinking about some issue sometimes, and I am not accusing you of manipulate me. Just as other guy/gal´s posts. Is he a hypocrite? In my opinion, he is not, he says he feels as guilty as anybody should be. If he is lying it is worse for him, he is damaging himself, not me.
If you want to dig in, Gregor, you will find that every person has a flaw or has commited an inmoral fault. In that case you couldnt possibly learn anything from anybody. Stop judging him as he judges you. You can do better.
November 30th, 2006 at 9:16 pmDifferent times, same Frantisek.
Comment by Gregor Samsa
You have a problem with Frantisek then. NOt with Humanist which you cant possibly know too much about him from what he has written.
November 30th, 2006 at 9:19 pm#321, JuanC
Humanist is a charlatan.
Humanist is lying about his American-ess.
Humanist has never denied his legal status of being an American
By his own admission, he is third (!) generation American.
Humanists speaks of Americans in the 2nd person instead of the first: No, each and every Iraqi who has been murdered in your name has been murdered by a fellow american. I have read your Constitution numerous times. [snip] I challenge anyone here to offer a different interpretation of your Constitution. I challenge anyone here to offer a different interpretation of your Constitution. Eventually you will just run out of Iraqis to kill while trying to figure out how to stop killing Iraqis.
Humanist is a charlatan.
November 30th, 2006 at 9:40 pmIt doesnt matter who says that, the content of the message is the important thing,
Comment by Juan C — November 30, 2006 @ 9:16 pm
Right. The content. The message.
His posturing, and attempts at making himself the judge of everyone else when -again- he does not live up to his own standards invalidates him. I can't believe I have had to repeat this so many times.
Like the pastor in my story, Humanist needs to be discarded for being a phony. You cannot possibly convey the truthfulness of a message if the messenger is not truthful and honest.
Your posts change my way of thinking about some issue sometimes, and I am not accusing you of manipulate me.
Juan, I have never blackmailed you emotionally into believing or doing this or that. I offer my opinion, you are free to take or leave.
I don't play into your emotions. I always try to reason with you, just like I am doing now. And I certainly haven't lied about my background.
There is simply no comparison.
If he is lying it is worse for him, he is damaging himself, not me.
So you don't have a problem with people telling you to do one thing when they do the opposite? Or chastising you for doing the same thing they are doing? Really? Lying is ok with you?
You'd make a great Bush follower.
Stop judging him as he judges you. You can do better.
His story doesn't check, and he is manipulative. His own posts reveal that much, I don't believe I have to go over all his posts again. You can re-read mine, I made my point very clear from the beginning.
You have a problem with Frantisek then.
Comment by Juan C — November 30, 2006 @ 9:19 pm
It was a story meant to draw parallels. I have a problem with the attitude. Wasn't it obvious? I know enough about him from what he has written: He is using the Iraq humanitarian catastrophe as an excuse to berate others. That attitude is shallow, and morally corrupt.
You are defending him (like the congregation in my story were defending Frantisek) because you like what he says, even when you recognise he is a phony.
The message is still true. Humanist is a phony, we don't need him. Take a deep breath, Juan. Let go. The world will not come to an end.
November 30th, 2006 at 10:16 pm#314 Juan C
Now, a final thought about the Humanist issue. What the heck is so important to know his background? The first thing you do in a discussion is ask for the oppponent´s nationality…as that has to do with what?
Juan, if I were to post something here like "Ha-ha. You mortals amuse me," wouldn't you be curious why I would say something that suggests that I'm not also a mortal? Wouldn't you find my tone a little irritating? Wouldn't you feel compelled to ask who the hell I thought I was?
I think it's a natural response and, in Humanist's case, the answer was surprising. He was carrying on as if he wasn't a U.S. citizen, but it turns out that he is.
November 30th, 2006 at 10:18 pmNow, a final thought about the Humanist issue. What the heck is so important to know his background? The first thing you do in a discussion is ask for the oppponent´s nationality…as that has to do with what? -- Juan
He was always condemming Americans as a whole ( not Bush and the Repukes). Like Tobey Tall. Now in Tobey's case, he is a brit (or scott ), yet refused to condem Blair and the british for being involved in the same war. That is hypocritical.
Now today, Humanist, who I assumed was also a hypocritical brit, admited he is American. He knows good and well, because he is an american who is behind Iraq. Does he condemm the parties involved? No, he condemms all Americans.
That is like condemming all citizens of Chile for what Penochett (sp?) did when he tortured and murdered thousands. Understand?
Some of us have been fighting Bush with every legal avenue we can. Not all Americans are complicit in Bush's illegal acts, in fact it is quite the opposite. We won this election, despite the fact that the republicans gerymandered the precincts tothepoint the repubs were bragging they were "bulletproof" against losing. Enough of us got out to vote they it overode their "bulletproof" gerymandering. Their manipulations only prevented what would have been a truely historical shelacking =)
I personally have worked hard for the election, protested this illegal administration, volenteer to help the homeless, etc. I found Humanist to be insulting and degrading to those of us that actually try to better our country. He is a shallow individual and I suspect a self-hater.
November 30th, 2006 at 10:44 pmHumanist and Mighty Aphrodite spank each other at night, and then they watch comedy central stand ups on Friday!!!
November 30th, 2006 at 10:45 pmShut IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Nazi.........................
November 30th, 2006 at 11:52 pmReferring to the the spammer.
November 30th, 2006 at 11:53 pmThat is like condemming all citizens of Chile for what Penochett (sp?) did when he tortured and murdered thousands. Understand?
Comment by Wayne
I just asked my mother (she is from Chile and lived the dictatorship) if she felt guilty (not responsible) for the events after 9/11/1973 in Chile. She says she doesnt, but she thinks people could do more to stop Pinochet, but people were afraid, apathic or against Allende.
My whole point is that we should take what is valuable from Humanist´s posts and what isnt we should leave it aside. IMO, he stated good points...for me. Thats all.
November 30th, 2006 at 11:59 pmMy whole point is that we should take what is valuable from Humanist´s posts and what isnt we should leave it aside. IMO, he stated good points…for me. Thats all.
---- Juan C
True, some of his posts were good, and then others, he attacked posters that were supposedly on the same side that he claimed. Look back at the threads. I don't feel like posting all of his attacks.
We always learn from the good and the bad, the trick is knowing the difference =)
December 1st, 2006 at 12:15 amShe says she doesnt, but she thinks people could do more to stop Pinochet, but people were afraid, apathic or against Allende. -- Juan
Remember though, most of the people that tried to do more were the ones that were tortured and murdered. Of course they were afraid.
December 1st, 2006 at 12:19 amWe always learn from the good and the bad, the trick is knowing the difference =)
Comment by Wayne
Ok, I will say he was pushy and had a above-all attitude. Nobody is good or bad, there is just misinformed or informed people. :) (I dont know exactly what I just posted, I just wanted to sound smart) Ha!
Of course they were afraid.
Comment by Wayne
Yes, its unfair to blame them. But, you know, I believe that NO ONE, no government, no regime ever would possibly stop organized, convinced and informed people. I think this is the best post Ive read:
When humanity decides it will no longer fight the wars of the wealthy, then, and only then, will there be true peace and true freedom. If the rich and powerful cannot force the rest of us to die for them, they will no longer control us.
Comment by Briseadh na Faire
I will hang these words on my wall.
December 1st, 2006 at 12:36 amI will hang these words on my wall.
--- Juan C
I have that and a few others by Briseadh na Faire in my quote database I wrote =)
December 1st, 2006 at 12:49 amI wouldn’t want people telling me the things I want to hear because they make me feel good about myself. Comment by Gregor Samsa
Me neither. I dont know who can possibly think that.
but I cannot accept their existence based solely on how the belief makes me feel.
I never said anything about feelings. Reality, which inlcudes people, makes me think.
but if he tells me cheating on one’s girlfriend/wife is wrong, I’d expect him to be faithful to his.
That would be congruent, of course. But, what if MA had been saying the truth all along, would her statements be more valid than Humanist´s? If truthfulness is the number one quality for you, I agree, completely if he had lied.
You already know he is a phony.
When did he lie? I really wanna know, I didnt follow closely the discussion about the nationality (which I find really unimportant)
For a -say- Polish person to come here and berate the US (with a holier-than-thou attitude) for having troops in Iraq would be hypocritical.
Sure but he would be right!!! Can you understand me in this point? Let alone who tells you this, the message is correct 100%. The guy is being hypocritical, no one is denying that. Those are two different, evident things. It seems that you cant separate the message from the messenger, and its obvious, of course. But one thing doesnt invalid the other one. Im focusing on what he says, you focus on what he is and after that you give or not credit for what he says. Is that right? Then yeah, we see things differently.
You consider an accusation of being rapists and/or killers constructive?
No.
Please. I am not insecure about a damn thing.
December 1st, 2006 at 12:53 amWe all are insecure about a lot of things. You just lied. :)
I believe that NO ONE, no government, no regime ever would possibly stop organized, convinced and informed people. --- Juan C
And currently from the government, anti war groups, pacifist, even veteran groups speaking out are spied on illegally. They are called terrorist sympathisers by Bushco and the Republicans. Main Stream Media is corporate owned, information filtered. Cheating in elections, voter suppression. on and on.....
It is part of a fascist control over the population.
December 1st, 2006 at 1:03 amSometimes it is not easy to overcome. But Yes, when enough people have had enough, they will march on Washington. Like they did with Vietnam.
Please. I am not insecure about a damn thing.
We all are insecure about a lot of things. You just lied. :)
--- Juan C
Can't Sleep, The Clowns Will Get Me.
=D
December 1st, 2006 at 1:07 amBut Yes, when enough people have had enough, they will march on Washington. Like they did with Vietnam.
Comment by Wayne
Hopefully, the sad thing is that millions of vietnamese died along with 40,000 US soldiers for that to happen. If people realized they own corporations -I will explain this-. Mexico is the 2nd place in the world where most coke (the beverage) is consumed. Imagine for a minute, just one day, nobody drinks coke. Im sure Coke´s CEOs freak out! Now imagine, the people communicate Coke that if they continue to mistreat its columbian workers (even killing some of the union leaders), nobody will continue to consume that sh*t. Corporations are all about profits, so 2 things will happen: Coke agrees and improve the labor standards of all its workers or we expect the Marines in Mexico, Columbia or even US.
Thats why Humanist´s idea of 150 million people asking for denationalization is the same thing...a symbolic, huge gesture of disagreement.
December 1st, 2006 at 1:15 amCan’t Sleep, The Clowns Will Get Me.
=D
Comment by Wayne
Despite of what my girlfriend says I think Im small. :O
(kidding...ejemmm)
December 1st, 2006 at 1:18 amI came back merely for amusement at what I knew would be vicious attacks. There were the vicious attacks, but I was surprised at the blatant deception and slander.
Gregor Samsa,
I left this thread not running from any truth, but to end the negative flurry that I had created. Let's be VERY clear on that. I am obviously too abrasive for you and many here. That’s my problem. You speak lies as if they are truth, that is your problem.
You act like you caught me in some deception, you did not. You do not believe what I say, fine, that is your choice and prerogative. However, you have not rebuked anything that I have said nor have you "proven" anything. I know this as a certainty.
Bash me all you want. Call me "arrogant" or "pompous" or whatever else makes you feel better about yourself. But, if you intend to call me a liar, then you better bring some facts with you. I know that you cannot and contrary to your tone, you have not.
Question my choices all you want. Question my integrity and you better be prepared to back it up.
I do not run from the responsibilities of my actions. If you feel the same about yourself, then fine. But do not make false claims just so that you can pronounce yourself the "winner". Such is petty. Even too petty for you I would hope.
Juan C., I am pleased that you found something useful in my messages. I appreciate you defending me and you show an open-mindedness that is a cause for hope. But do not feel it necessary to defend me, nor allow yourself to be "tainted" by affiliation in the eyes of those who claim open minds, but seek only validation through like mindedness. You may have found cause for contemplation from my messages, but I have found inspiration in yours. Thank you and may God bless.
May peace be with us all.
December 1st, 2006 at 1:24 amBash me all you want. Call me “arrogant†or “pompous†or whatever else makes you feel better about yourself. --- Humanist
I called you on your attacks on other posters, which has been going on a while, and for your hypocricy. And no, that doesn't make me feel better about myself or worst about myself.
I have come to peace as to who I am along time ago.
May you find your peace.
December 1st, 2006 at 1:33 amThat would be congruent, of course. But, what if MA had been saying the truth all along, would her statements be more valid than Humanist´s?
Comment by Juan C — December 1, 2006 @ 12:53 am
Juan, focus. Or maybe I am losing something in the translation.
One more time: That Iraq is a catastrophe nobody questions. That the US should leave is something I have been saying since the invasion. That is not the issue. The issue is that Humanist has accused us of many things, treated people in this board with utter condescension, and that he arrogantly puts people down for doing nothing when he has done nothing to stop the carnage. Why is that so difficult for you to understand? How is that a valid point at any level?
Or maybe I need to ask you a basic question: Do you think all Americans are personally guilty of killing Iraqis? You seem to agree with Humanist on this point, because you keep asking "how is his point any less valid", and that is one of the points in contention.
Are you all for collective punishments?
When did he lie? I really wanna know, I didnt follow closely the discussion about the nationality (which I find really unimportant)
If you had, you'd know where he lied. Time and again. It is important because it is his central argument in how Iraq is not his problem.
It seems that you cant separate the message from the messenger, and its obvious, of course.
I can, Juan, that is not what I meant. I will not be denigrated for doing something by a person who is doing the exact same thing. If they said "We are misbehaving, let's stop" that is one thing. But for them to berate, accuse and belittle, while absolving themselves of any responsibility, it won't fly with me.
Is that right? Then yeah, we see things differently.
So, if someone says to you "stealing is wrong", and then find out he is a thief -you still hold this person in high regard because what he said is right? You will submit to his rules but won't ask he live by them? You will give control over you to someone like that? Let him make the rules you have to follow but he is free to break?
Yeah, we definitely see things differently.
December 1st, 2006 at 1:35 amThank you and may God bless.
May peace be with us all.
Comment by Humanist
No thanks needed, Humanist. I was not defending you. I was stating my opinion about the discussion. I guess nobody likes to be called a baby-killer if that person hasnt killed any baby, but instead the person´s government has. I think should get more involved in political, economical and social decisions of their governments, I think also that people here are really compromised with that happening, so I wouldnt find pleasant someone telling me that I have to carry with thousands of deads as an invisible burden. I hope you can see that instead of being so confrontational with posts like: Even too petty for you I would hope. That only makes your probable valid argument...gone.
I really wish you could see this cuz I like some of your posts. BTW, I dont believe in God so there is no need to spend blessings on me.
December 1st, 2006 at 1:39 amBut do not make false claims just so that you can pronounce yourself the “winnerâ€. Such is petty. Even too petty for you I would hope.
Comment by Humanist — December 1, 2006 @ 1:24 am
Says the man who has propped himself in a pedestal time and again, and declared himself a winner many times by stating "nobody has refuted anything I've said".
Your latest self-congratulatory post is another way of declaring yourself a "winner", and hence a projection. Although I have to agree: Pronouncing oneself a winner is petty, but not too petty for you obviously.
December 1st, 2006 at 1:41 am#348-Wayne,
Thank you, I have. And I leave you to your journey, may it be wonderful.
Peace.
December 1st, 2006 at 1:43 am#350-Juan C.,
As you wish, and I appreciate your suggestions and criticisms. And I was not just being kind, you show an open-mindedness that is inspirational.
Wonderful and peaceful journey to you.
December 1st, 2006 at 1:47 am#351-Gregor Samsa,
I have won nothing. I obviously did not "enlighten" anyone. More deaths are occurring. I am certain, in fact, that I failed and failed miserably.
And Juan and you are both correct in regard to my "petty" comment. I phrased that incorrectly, either consciously or subconciously, so that it became an insult. That was wrong of me, and petty I guess, so I apologize for that.
Wonderful and peaceful journey to you.
Peace.
December 1st, 2006 at 1:55 amDo you think all Americans are personally guilty of killing Iraqis? You seem to agree with Humanist on this point, because you keep asking “how is his point any less validâ€,
Comment by Gregor Samsa
No, Gregor, I dont. Ive stated that. I will repeat it: I do not favor that generalization. I disagree with it. The valid thing about his comments is that WE bear some responsibility too (not killing, not raping, not harming but some...). Dont know how much but we do. Thats all. Could you agree with that? FORGET ABOUT WHO SAID IT. Do you agree with that point? If you dont...its OK. What Im gonna do?...Im just saying that part is important.
So, if someone says to you “stealing is wrongâ€, and then find out he is a thief -you still hold this person in high regard because what he said is right? You will submit to his rules but won’t ask he live by them? You will give control over you to someone like that? Let him make the rules you have to follow but he is free to break?
Comment by Gregor Samsa
Thats the point. Im not holding in high regard Humanist. I only said that he made a comment that makes me think...Now, all your examples are about stealing or manipulating, to describe a guy who talked about his nationality, correctly or incorrectly, are a little over the top, in my opinion. You sure dont like him, I just dont care too much about him, thats the difference.
Yeah, we definitely see things differently.
December 1st, 2006 at 1:55 amwhich is a good thing. Dont you agree? :)
And I was not just being kind, you show an open-mindedness that is inspirational.
Wonderful and peaceful journey to you.
Comment by Humanist
Thanks a lot. Im trying to fight the ego´s outbursts...its hard, but its rewarding. Be well.
December 1st, 2006 at 1:58 amI have won nothing. I obviously did not “enlighten†anyone.
Comment by Humanist — December 1, 2006 @ 1:55 am
I didn't say you had won anything. I said your post was another way of declaring yourself a winner; of what only you know.
More deaths are occurring. I am certain, in fact, that I failed and failed miserably.
There you bloody go again. Do you think, what, that I enjoy the bloody thought that innocent people are dying in this illegal war? That I relish the thought the occupation will go on?
If me just wishing it, the war would stop -I'd wish it. I am wishing it now. Has it bloody stopped it? Hell no.
I apologize for that.
Apologies accepted. Understand we all do what we can, but we all have responsibilities. Yes, the petty responsibilities of everyday life, like feeding our families.
My heart breaks when I think what an Iraqi father goes through when one of his children is hurt (and there is nobody to help) in this odious, immoral war.
December 1st, 2006 at 2:09 am#357-Gregor Samsa,
I understand exactly what you are saying, for the first time today. And I do not mean that you are just now making sense, rather, well, it just seems more clear to me.
I'll leave it at that.
Peace and prosperity to you.
December 1st, 2006 at 2:19 amCould you agree with that? FORGET ABOUT WHO SAID IT.
Comment by Juan C — December 1, 2006 @ 1:55 am
I can agree to that. I understand a people is responsible for the actions of its government -to an extent.
Many people have already pointed out to you Chileans are not to blame for Pinochet. Americans were against the invasion before it happened. All the opinion polls showed that fact consistently. What did this administration do? Hijack the constitution, ignore the polls, go to war. Support for the president was up after the invasion, in a misguided surge of patriotism.
And talking about an organised populace is easier said than done. I have a family with small children. My first responsibility is towards them. They need me. Many Chileans were probably confronted with the very same stark choice: Be actively engaged and face the consequences (that would probably have an impact on the little ones), or do whatever they could given their circumstances.
The expectation that we all should take to the streets is wholly unreasonable. It has never happened, in the US or anywhere else.
You sure dont like him, I just dont care too much about him, thats the difference.
I have a long standing issue with hypocrites, and hypocrisy -whether real or perceived. Frantisek was not the beginning of my dislike for people who are not forthcoming.
December 1st, 2006 at 2:23 amI have a family with small children. My first responsibility is towards them. They need me.
Comment by Gregor Samsa
Ive posted this before, probably you have read it. We lived in Nicaragua for a year back in 81. My mother told me that she met a woman who sew the clothing of Sandinistas. She said to my mother: I had to choose between sending my 14 y/o boy to fight against the Somoza regime or watching him stay here and starved to death.
The expectation that we all should take to the streets is wholly unreasonable. It has never happened, in the US or anywhere else.
Comment by Gregor Samsa
Wayne just told me US citizens did that when Vietnam happened. When governments f*cked too much with people, people rise. Big time.
December 1st, 2006 at 2:38 amWhat a lousy english I write...
December 1st, 2006 at 2:41 amWhy am I not surprised?
Comment by mighty aphrodite
Coming from a white-collar mouthpiece, I'll take that as a compliment.
December 1st, 2006 at 3:44 am#322 - "Coming from a white-collar mouthpiece, I’ll take that as a compliment." Comment by barfly
***********Dear bargnat - I know this will come as a surprise to you, but EVEN white-collar clients are innocent until PROVEN guilty. Somehow, the envious can't seem to get through their heads that we don't take a look at a defendants portfolio or last years tax returns to determine "off with their heads". But I'm glad you feel you've received a compliment this day - I'm sure they are few and far between.....
Now where did that culpable little Humanist, the ersatz American go?
December 1st, 2006 at 10:27 amBusy day......
In this case, the COACH(???) PRESIDENT BUSH AND ADVISERS. That was an easy question. Any more???
He lied so successfully, even the congress was in the dark with regard to yellow cake, etc. They gave him the benefit of doubt if there was doubt, but even then dozens of Democrats voted against the invasion. You can look up the specific bill if you want. Later, we found they cooked up the whole damn basis for invasion. Their theory at the time was if Saddam had WMD, he'd given it to the terrorists, and they'd really hurt us. Now we know the full story, and many had their doubts, but it was close enough to the "duck and cover" of 911, many FELL for their LIES.
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