House Conservatives Push Fringe Abortion Measure Instead Of Vital Budget Bills
House Conservatives Push Fringe Abortion Measure Instead Of Vital Budget Bills
Next week, the 109th Congress returns for a final lame-duck session. “In a blend of pique and laziness,” conservatives are choosing to simply ignore their responsibility to complete nine overdue spending bills. Instead, they plan to pass an emergency stop-gap bill — called a “continuing resolution” — that will result in millions in funding cuts to vital programs. CongressDaily explains:
– The Social Security Administration has told congressional staff it might have to furlough every employee.
– HUD funding would not keep pace with demand for low-income housing vouchers, meaning “literally thousands of people would be out in the street,” one source said.
– School breakfast and lunch programs would face a $1 billion shortfall, cutting off 1.2 million participants.
– The Veterans Health Administration would have to absorb the $3 billion increase to meet this year’s requirements.
But while spending bills aren’t on the agenda, a “fetal pain abortion bill” — which has no chance of passing becoming law (it will likely pass in the House) and is described as a “last bid for loyalty” from the “base of social conservatives” — will likely get a vote:
The bill, by Rep. Chris Smith, R-N.J., defines a 20-week-old fetus as a “pain-capable unborn child” a highly controversial threshold among scientists. It also directs the Health and Human Service Department to develop a brochure stating “that there is substantial evidence that the process of being killed in an abortion will cause the unborn child pain.”
A report last year by the Journal of the American Medical Association reviewed nearly 2,000 studies on fetal pain and concluded that “legislative proposals to allow fetal pain relief during abortion are not justified by scientific evidence.”
Topic Cloud
ArchivesBlog Roll
But if that same child is born into a home where it is abused and neglected, and then beaten to death by the time it’s three years old, who f*cking gives a shit?
December 1st, 2006 at 1:16 pmGo team terror!
Helping the poor isn’t what Jesus would want, just ask the Christian Coalition. Apparently he would only push hate.
December 1st, 2006 at 1:16 pmAn act of desperation it is. A last ditch effort to push it on the people. Waste of time.
The crazy Christians only care about children before they are born, after that, send them off to kill the brown people.
December 1st, 2006 at 1:20 pmOur repub congress: irrelevant and absurd to the end! And proud of it!
December 1st, 2006 at 1:21 pmI thought only homos wore fringe.
December 1st, 2006 at 1:22 pmThe 109th – the do nothing else Congress.
December 1st, 2006 at 1:23 pmThe Veterans Health Administration would have to absorb the $3 billion increase to meet this year’s requirements.
SUPPORT OUR TROOPS! they continuously shout as they cut funding for our VETERANS!
Let me propose one small idea: Bring out troops home NOW, and with the excess money we would save each day, could actually go to our brave men and women who have served or are currently serving
December 1st, 2006 at 1:27 pmThey are doing this so that people will be so pissed off at congress, they’ll stop caring… Not everybody knows you have to wait until next year to get the newly elected congress.
That’s my conspiracy theory of the week.
Stay tuned for next week when I discuss ancient structures found on Mars that resemble Cheney’s trademark grimace.
December 1st, 2006 at 1:29 pmThe depth of moral corruption in the Republican party is unfathomable!!!
December 1st, 2006 at 1:29 pmThey don’t care about animal sperm, eggs, or zygotes either. No contradiction.
December 1st, 2006 at 1:31 pmNow how you gonna concentrate on the frivolous stuff like passin’ a budget and ensurin’ the continuing function of the gubbermint when the BABIES is at peril?
First things first, people! We gotta FIGHT against them illegal STEM CELLS and save the BABIES!!!
December 1st, 2006 at 1:33 pmHow about the pain caused to children who are left parent-less because of this idiotic war? An those unborn children of these dead and wounded soldiers or civilians who will never know the true joy their parents could have given them
Zooey you are right, these GOP morons don’t give a rat’s ass about them.
December 1st, 2006 at 1:33 pmJeez, hope none of the soon to be furloughed Social Security Administration employees have babies at home. Science says those babies will be feeling some pain when mom can’t afford to feed them.
December 1st, 2006 at 1:39 pm#15 – barfly,
December 1st, 2006 at 1:45 pmI believe it is left undone.
Keep it up, morons. Discredit the Republican Party even further…
Good riddance.
December 1st, 2006 at 1:45 pmHey #8, I would say its “Healthy eating = Clear mind”.
Which probably explains why the fat and gin blossomed tend to preach sanctimoniously during the day and then at night either screw around on their spouse or beat them, fondle little boys, or suck the crack pipe while pleading with their “masseuse” to bring the hammer down.
I could be wrong. But reality seems to support this theory.
December 1st, 2006 at 1:46 pmAnd what did you expect from this Congress? Work???
Nah, let’s try and push some irrlevant bill through Congress to show America that we really care about values, but not lives!
Let’s let children go hungry, Veterans suffer outrageous medical costs and/or restrictions in benefits, inadequate health care for our citizens, while we count the days until our vacation!
Yep, THAT’S the REPIBLICAN WAY! And, of course, BLAME CLINTON for it all!!!
December 1st, 2006 at 1:53 pm[...] They simply will not do the job for which they ran and for which they were elected: [...]
December 1st, 2006 at 2:03 pmNot so fast on this. The JAMA article cited by Nico above turned into something of an embarassment for JAMA when the JAMA editor admitted that she had not known (and thus, did not disclose) that the lead author was a medical student previously employed as a lawyer by NARAL, and that one of the co-authors ran the biggest abortion clinic in San Francisco. The Philadelphia Inquirer reported: “JAMA editor-in-chief Catherine D. DeAngelis said she was unaware of this, and acknowledged it might create an appearance of bias that could hurt the journal’s credibility. ‘This is the first I’ve heard about it,’ she said. ‘We ask them to reveal any conflict of interest. I would have published’ the disclosure if it had been made.”
More to the point, there is in fact a lot of evidence that by the beginning of the sixth month (if not earlier), the human fetus is sensitive to painful stimuli. This bill kicks in at 20 weeks fertilziation, which is the same as 22 weeks in the “last menstrual period” system used by ob/gyns, which is about the start of the sixth month.
For example, a review of the available studies on the subject published in September 1999 in the British Journal of Obstetrics and Gynaecology — which is the top ob-gyn journal in the United Kingdom — concluded: “Given the anatomical evidence, it is possible that the fetus can feel pain from 20 weeks and is caused distress by interventions from as early as 15 or 16 weeks.” (The bill in Congress kicks in at 22 weeks in this system of reckoning, which is the same as 20 weeks after fertilization.)
Prof. Dr. Kanwaljeet S. Anand of the University of Arkansas, whose pain research years ago changed many practices involving newborns, said, “It is my opinion that the human fetus possesses the ability to experience pain from 20 weeks of gestation, if not earlier, and that pain perceived by a fetus is possibly more intense than that perceived by newborns or older children.”
If one visits any neonatal unit one is likely to find premature newborns at 23 weeks, 24 weeks, 25 weeks, 26 weeks, 27 weeks, 28 weeks. It has been recognized by medical science for decades that these newborn premature infants feel pain, and steps are taken to minimize it to the extent possible. (As a neonatal nurse if you don’t believe me.) Why should we believe that the fetus in utero, at the very same stages, is insensible to stimuli (during an abortion) far more violent than anything the neonatal staff would inflict on the newborn?
By the way, NARAL put out a statement that it “does not intend to oppose this legislation.”
December 1st, 2006 at 2:07 pmconservatives are choosing to simply ignore their responsibility to complete nine overdue spending bills.
Aren’t conservatives, as a rule, always skirting their responsibilities?
9/11 is now Clinton’s fault. The deficit is the Democrats’ fault. The death toll in Iraq is the fault of “libruls” for not supporting the war effort.
I can see it coming: The spending bills did not get voted on because of them darn “libruls”.
legislative proposals to allow fetal pain relief during abortion are not justified by scientific evidence.
Anti-science Republicans? Who would have guessed it? (un)Intelligent Design is not supported by scientific evidence, but that didn’t stop them either.
These people need to be out of office. Now. The longer we can keep them there, the better.
Otherwise, they will soon have doctors curing our illnesses with amulets, lucky charms, chants, and divine trances.
December 1st, 2006 at 2:13 pmWhy are the majority of vegans and vegetarians pro-choice? Healthy eating? Kindness to animals?
They don’t care about animal sperm, eggs, or zygotes either. No contradiction.
Comment by Parrotlover77 — December 1, 2006 @ 1:31 pm
Animals were put on this earth for nurishment. I will be eating a nice steak before I fly out tonight.
December 1st, 2006 at 2:18 pm#23 – CouldBeeWorse – if what you write is true – that a fetus can experience pain at 20 weeks, wouldn’t this suggest we should be preventing unwanted pregnancies with a robust program of education and easily available birth-control? Abstinence isn’t going to work as animals will be animals..:)
While I am pro-choice, I also don’t like the idea of unwanted pregnancies, so promoting birth-control is the best solution.
December 1st, 2006 at 2:19 pmDaryll,
Flying? I thought you always rode the short bus on trips.
Stoopid F’ing Christian
Ban God and 90% of the worlds problems are solved.
He’s just like Santa, Easter bunny, tooth fairy, great pumpkin, made up stories to keep the idiots with no will, and self purpose in line.
December 1st, 2006 at 2:41 pmWant to shut these ass-wipes up? How about the Responsible Birth Law? At the time of birth the father must be identified and confirmed via genetic testing. If not identified and confirmed, there’s a DNA bench warrent put out for daddy and the mother can be held in contempt — given our current justice system this feature will mostly affect minority mothers and fathers.
Bottom line, genetic daddy is 50% financially responsible for the child until he/she turns 18, even if put up for adoption. Naturally we can figure out some dollar amount of minimal financial responsibility and offset it with inflation every year.
Come on good Christian daddies! Support the Responsible Birth Law so that every child will at least have a financial daddy, every child will be financially protected, and we’re not talking about the governement acting as daddy. No sir, this is the actual sperm doner taking personal responsibility for where his stuff landed.
Are you on board? Remember, it’s for the children, it’s all about the children. Can I count on you?
December 1st, 2006 at 2:45 pmI guess these christian bigots don’t really believe so much, or else they would just pray for divine intervention to save these clumps of cells.
Imagine a world in where there were more sane people than insanse ones! Imagine a world without religion.
O hell, then we would have to find jobs for all those employed by the military industrial complex.
December 1st, 2006 at 2:54 pmSounds like some Republicans could do with retroactive abortions.
December 1st, 2006 at 2:54 pmIdiots.
By the way, NARAL put out a statement that it “does not intend to oppose this legislation.â€
Comment by CouldBeeWorse — December 1, 2006 @ 2:07 pm
After getting all that information together, and before posting it, you obviously didn’t stop for a second to figure out it has nothing to do with the fact that the “fetal pain abortion” bill legislation does not stand a chance to pass, that its vote is just for show, and that this Republican Congress is ignoring far more pressing issues in order to pander to its base.
You worry about the possibility of “fetal pain” while ignoring the 1.2 million children who will be cut off from the school breakfast and lunch programs.
You are yet another conservative who wrings his hands over the “rights of the unborn”, and then dutifully ignores them when they need help after being actually born.
December 1st, 2006 at 2:55 pmThey are trying to pass a “fetal pain abortion bill” but they cannot pass (among others) a bill that insures the continuation of school breakfast and lunches for poor children?
Would anyone kindly point out to these people that children actually need to be fed AFTER birth?
December 1st, 2006 at 2:57 pm#34
December 1st, 2006 at 3:02 pmHear, hear!
“You are yet another conservative who wrings his hands over the “rights of the unbornâ€, and then dutifully ignores them when they need help after being actually born. “
In the particular case, conservatives are not only just ignoring the existing children, they are actively working to hurt them by not authorizing the spending needed to maintain the school breakfast and lunch programs.
These people are truly despicable.
December 1st, 2006 at 3:04 pmregressive’s prioties – great Americans, every one of them.
December 1st, 2006 at 3:05 pm.
I have to ask when Republican Smith is going to propose a bill to ban the process of circumcision on infant males. After all, if a 20-week old fetus is “capable of feeling pain”, then certainly there can be no doubt that a newly-born male will feel pain when a part of his anatomy is sliced off. There is, of course, dispute in the medical community over whether the infant actually feels pain or not–despite most of the infant’s screaming and wailing during the process. Of course, I suppose, the far right’s religious base would demand an exception be made for “religious circumcisions”.
December 1st, 2006 at 3:07 pmWe’d explain myelination and fetal development to the conservatives, but they’d just pretend that “the jury was still out” in the scientific community.
Drooling superstitious freaks shouldn’t do science. Or law. Or much of anything besides drool.
December 1st, 2006 at 3:08 pm.
Beg, borrow, or steal a clue, Republicans. This is why you lost the election. You keep screwing around with junk like this and ignore real issues that affect real people.
No. Better yet, keep screwing around. Keep pushing dumbass bills like this and you won’t even be the minority party anymore. You’ll be history. Idiots.
December 1st, 2006 at 3:10 pmWell, Mr. Samsa, it appears that it is you who did not stop for a second to google and actually read the NARAL statement. I’ll save you the trouble — I pasted it in in below. The first thing you will notice is that it was sent out to the news media in January, 2005, at the very beginning of the current Congress, before anybody knew when the bill would come to vote or whether it would pass or not. The second thing you will notice is that NARAL explained why it “does not intend to oppose” the bill, and their reasoning (agree with it or not) has nothing to do with those which you assumed.
The NARAL statement uses the original bill numbers. The bill that will come before the House next week is a somewhat stripped-down version.
What follows is a direct electronic reproduction of a statement that was e-mailed by NARAL to inquiring journalists in January, 2005.
STATEMENT ON S. 51/H.R. 356
Nancy Keenan, President
NARAL Pro-Choice America
“Pro-choice Americans have always believed that women deserve access to all the information relevant to their reproductive health decisions. For some women, that includes information related to fetal anesthesia options. NARAL Pro-Choice America does not intend to oppose this legislation.
Most importantly, I hope that over the next few years those of us who believe in a woman’s right to choose and those who oppose that freedom can find ways to work together to reduce unintended pregnancies and the number of abortions. Helping pass Senator Harry Reid’s Prevention First Act would certainly be a good start in that direction.â€
# # #
NARAL Pro-Choice America
December 1st, 2006 at 3:25 pm1156 15th Street, NW Suite 700
Washington, DC 20005
(202) 973-3034
While they are in their snit, people will suffer.
December 1st, 2006 at 3:29 pmThis vengeful congress is the most revolting and worthless body I have ever seen — of course, it follows, with Bush being the worst president in history.
re: #38 by JosephW,
This is a non-issue for them. You’re showing concern for a post-birth child, they don’t care about those. The beauty of being overly concerned with the fetus is that you can mess with the mother. If you would only listen to enough Christian TV you’d get with the program that women are meant to be subjugate, the man is supreme. Giving woman “choice” is pretty much an abomination. If the “child” was really of any concern you’d see at least some attention given to the post-birth existence of this child, but that’s not the story here. The child is pretty much just a tool for poking mommy good and hard.
December 1st, 2006 at 3:32 pmLadies and gentlemen, the GOP is officially clueless. This is where there priorities lie. And Karl Rove wonders why so many Republi-cons lost this year.
December 1st, 2006 at 4:06 pmWhoa. It just dawned on me that this is the first time I’ve seen liberals use the “this is why you lost the election” stab for the first time in YEARS! Feels good to do it back to those clowns after years of them ruining the country and the planet…
December 1st, 2006 at 4:12 pm#45 Parrotlover77
Whoa. It just dawned on me that this is the first time I’ve seen liberals use the “this is why you lost the election†stab for the first time in YEARS! Feels good to do it back to those clowns after years of them ruining the country and the planet…
I suppose if we wanted to give them the full treatment, we could say “This is why you ALWAYS lose elections,” as they liked to put it.
But, we’ll just leave the BSing to the righties.
December 1st, 2006 at 4:25 pmWhy are the majority of vegans and vegetarians pro-choice? Healthy eating? Kindness to animals?
Comment by mighty aphrodite — December 1, 2006 @ 1:28 pm
You can ingest all the pig fetuses and cow sperm you want and I won’t say a word.
Feel better?
December 1st, 2006 at 4:56 pmOtherwise, they will soon have doctors curing our illnesses with amulets, lucky charms, chants, and divine trances.
Comment by Gregor Samsa — December 1, 2006 @ 2:13 pm
LOL
December 1st, 2006 at 5:00 pmAnimals were put on this earth for nurishment. I will be eating a nice steak before I fly out tonight.
Comment by Daryll — December 1, 2006 @ 2:18 pm
Reason number 15 for why I detest organized religion – holier-than-thou belief systems.
Daryll… Put? LOL
Animals, like humans, evolved from the same single celled organism, and are made from the same carbon (it’s why not only can you eat them, but they can eat you).
December 1st, 2006 at 5:03 pmAnybody besides me like to see our friend Daryll surrounded by, say, 12 hungry Komodo dragons?
December 1st, 2006 at 5:13 pmYou can ingest all the pig fetuses and cow sperm you want and I won’t say a word.
Feel better?
Comment by unbelievable
May I say, my dear Salma — SNAP!!!
December 1st, 2006 at 5:14 pmAnybody besides me like to see our friend Daryll surrounded by, say, 12 hungry Komodo dragons?
Comment by RUCerious — December 1, 2006 @ 5:13 pm
More than you know :)
December 1st, 2006 at 5:16 pmAnybody besides me like to see our friend Daryll surrounded by, say, 12 hungry Komodo dragons?
Comment by RUCerious
Personally, I’d throw Flaco & Vinnie in that circle before Daryll.
December 1st, 2006 at 5:18 pmMay I say, my dear Salma — SNAP!!!
Comment by Zooey — December 1, 2006 @ 5:14 pm
He was asking for it… :D
December 1st, 2006 at 5:19 pmPersonally, I’d throw Flaco & Vinnie in that circle before Daryll.
Comment by Zooey — December 1, 2006 @ 5:18 pm
I’m sure we could round up more than just 12 hungry komodos…
December 1st, 2006 at 5:21 pmI wonder if any of the three would cause Komodo indigestion?
December 1st, 2006 at 5:22 pmI wonder if any of the three would cause Komodo indigestion?
Comment by RUCerious — December 1, 2006 @ 5:22 pm
My mother’s dog eats his own vomit and seems to do fine…
December 1st, 2006 at 5:26 pmI’m sure we could round up more than just 12 hungry komodos…
Comment by unbelievable — December 1, 2006 @ 5:21 pm
Feed Daryll, Vinnie, and Flaco to 12 Komodo dragons?
Wouldn’t that be animal cruelty? I am talking about the dragons, of course…
I mean, I know those reptiles can eat rotten meat but, c’mon, that just might be too much.
December 1st, 2006 at 5:27 pm#1
But if that same child is born into a home where it is abused and neglected, and then beaten to death by the time it’s three years old, who f*cking gives a shit?
Comment by Zooey
Boy u live in a rough neighborhood.
December 1st, 2006 at 5:30 pmI mean, I know those reptiles can eat rotten meat but, c’mon, that just might be too much.
Comment by Gregor Samsa — December 1, 2006 @ 5:27 pm
I used to work with a guy who told me that the best way to get rid of a dead body was to throw it to pigs because they can eat anything. He really hated his boss (a woman we called ‘Broomhilda’ due to her physical attributes).
December 1st, 2006 at 5:31 pmBoy u live in a rough neighborhood.
Comment by Flaco — December 1, 2006 @ 5:30 pm
You can joke about it, but as a public school teacher, I can confirm that child abuse is far more common than you might think in your unreality little coocoon.
Two of my students this year have admitted to me that they were abused children who no longer live with their birth parents.
December 1st, 2006 at 5:36 pm#51 RUCerious
Anybody besides me like to see our friend Daryll surrounded by, say, 12 hungry Komodo dragons?
Or perhaps even more exotic than that, Daryll could be consumed by flesh-eating bacteria. I wonder what their Bible says about the purpose that humans serve.
December 1st, 2006 at 5:40 pmTwo of my students this year have admitted to me that they were abused children who no longer live with their birth parents.
Comment by unbelievable
Abort them next time. Easy solution.
December 1st, 2006 at 5:41 pmThey are just a clump of cells right?
Sharpen your daggers and knives and kill the innocent
December 1st, 2006 at 5:45 pmor keep ur legs close ladies. U do have a choice.
Abort them next time. Easy solution.
They are just a clump of cells right?
Comment by Flaco — December 1, 2006 @ 5:41 pm
Right.
December 1st, 2006 at 6:33 pmSharpen your daggers and knives and kill the innocent
or keep ur legs close ladies. U do have a choice.
Comment by Flaco — December 1, 2006 @ 5:45 pm
So do you. It’s not just one partner’s ultimate responsibility.
Besides, you’ll not stop people from having sex. It’s as innate as eating, urinating and sleeping.
December 1st, 2006 at 6:34 pm50% women have HAD 2 abortion PROCEDURES
Comment by Flaco — December 1, 2006 @ 6:32 pm
Prove it.
I have had zero. Though, if he were a real girl, I bet MA would have made up for my deficit with 4 or 5 of his own…
December 1st, 2006 at 6:43 pmSo do you. It’s not just one partner’s ultimate responsibility.
Ultimately it is the bitch who is responsible
Besides, you’ll not stop people from having sex. It’s as innate as eating, urinating and sleeping. Duh
Comment by unbelievable
December 1st, 2006 at 6:48 pm“The unborn are not sentient.” Comment by -*-*-*-*-*
********And you know this, because…? Wow!! Next you’ll be telling us you were a double-major, Architecture AND Molecular Biology…..
December 1st, 2006 at 6:57 pmJeez, hope none of the soon to be furloughed Social Security Administration employees have babies at home. Science says those babies will be feeling some pain when mom can’t afford to feed them.
Comment by oxillini — December 1, 2006 @ 1:39 pm
NO!
No pain.
Only low food security-consequences.
And maybe some physical tolerance threshold exceedence,
or over-flow-ance
in the tummyologic regional areas
probably resulting from low food security
or even possibly an all out food security seige!
But no pain.
December 1st, 2006 at 7:09 pmThe unborn are not sentient. It’s the glaringly obvious point that you keep missing.– unbelievable
From the London Telegraph:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=%2Fnews%2F2003%2F03%2F10%2Fnfoet10.xml
Foetuses ‘may be conscious long before abortion limit’
By David Derbyshire, Science Correspondent
Last Updated: 11:49pm GMT 09/03/2003
Foetuses may develop consciousness long before the legal age limit for abortions, one of Britain’s leading brain scientists has said.
Baroness Greenfield, a professor of neurology at Oxford University and the director of the Royal Institution, said there was evidence to suggest the conscious mind could develop before 24 weeks, the upper age where terminations are permitted.
Although she fell short of calling for changes in the abortion laws, she urged doctors and society to be cautious when assuming unborn babies lacked consciousness. “Is the foetus conscious? The answer is yes, but up to a point,” she said.
“Given that we can’t prove consciousness or not, we should be very cautious about being too gung ho and assuming something is not conscious. We should err on the side of caution.”
Last year, a Daily Telegraph straw poll found many neurologists were concerned that foetuses could feel pain in the womb before 24 weeks after conception.
Many believed foetuses should be given anaesthetics during a late abortion, after 20 weeks. Some also believe pain relief should be given for keyhole surgery in the womb.
Abortions are allowed up to 24 weeks in Britain, but are rarely given so late. Around 90 per cent of the 175,000 planned terminations that take place each year in England and Wales are in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy. Around 1.5 per cent – or 2,600 – take place after the 20th week.
Terminations after 24 weeks are only allowed in exceptional circumstances if, for instance, the mother’s life is threatened.
Lady Greenfield is sceptical of philosophers and doctors who argue that consciousness is “switched on” at some point during the brain’s development.
She believes instead that there is a sliding scale of consciousness and that it develops gradually as neurons, or brain cells, make more and more connections with each other.
She told the British Fertility Society in London last week that she had serious concerns about foetal consciousness.
“The Home Office has legislation that applies to a mammal and they have now extended it to the octopus, a mollusc, because it can learn,” she said. “If a mollusc can be attributed with being sentient, and now has Home Office protection, then my own view is that we should be very cautious after making assumptions.”
In 2001 a Medical Research Council expert group said unborn babies might feel pain as early as 20 weeks and almost certainly by 24. They called for more sensitive treatment of very premature babies, who often had to undergo painful procedures like heel pricks and injections.
– story ends –
December 1st, 2006 at 7:19 pmAnd you know this, because…?
Science. Ever heard of it?
Wow!! Next you’ll be telling us you were a double-major, Architecture AND Molecular Biology…..
Comment by mighty aphrodite — December 1, 2006 @ 6:57 pm
No. Architecture and Engineering. But I did take two Biology courses, one Chemistry and several Physics classes. No doubt that that’s more Science than you’ve ever been exposed to.
At least I went to college and don’t have to lie about it.
December 1st, 2006 at 7:28 pmComment by CouldBeeWorse — December 1, 2006 @ 7:19 pm
Want proof? Okay… Tell us all about your time spent en utero. Don’t remember? Why do you think that is Einstein?
December 1st, 2006 at 7:31 pmI don’t care if a fetus is talking on the phone and emailing it’s little fetus friends, if it’s in my body and I want it gone — it’s gone.
December 1st, 2006 at 7:35 pmIf much depends as is allowed upon the early education of youth and the first principles which are instilled take the deepest root, great benefit must arise from literary accomplishments of women.
– Abigail Adams
December 1st, 2006 at 7:50 pmActually, I don’t remember anything from my first year or two after birth, either. So by your logic, since I don’t consciously remember that period now, that means that if somebody had ripped my arm off during that same period, it would not have hurt, right?
Also, it is common knowledge that even many adults often report that they can’t really remember the sensation of a past experience of intense pain — for example, the pain of childbirth. That doesn’t mean it didn’t really hurt while they were actually experiencing it.
December 1st, 2006 at 7:53 pm“And you know this, because…? ‘Science. Ever heard of it?”"
Comment by -*-*-*-*-*-*-
*******Your citation on sentience is a tad weak….to say the least. Which scientific texts or articles are you referring???
December 1st, 2006 at 7:54 pm“….if it’s in my body and I want it gone — it’s gone.” Comment by Zooey
********Dear Zooette – “I want…” Hmmm…I guess that really is the definition of “it’s ALL about MEEEEEEE.”
December 1st, 2006 at 7:59 pm********Dear Zooette – “I want…†Hmmm…I guess that really is the definition of “it’s ALL about MEEEEEEE.â€
Comment by mighty aphrodite
You got that right, Hagette.
December 1st, 2006 at 8:07 pmok… out front – i’m pro choice, 1st trimester, after that, many variables determine what MY feelings are about the abortion issue…
that said, quite simply, i KNOW that both babies that i carried could feel and sense and react to many different outside and internal occurances…
December 1st, 2006 at 8:36 pmi will concede that i was aware of this only well into the pregnancy, 6 months on… my daughter even rolled me over in bed once – i guess she wanted to change her position… hey, her comfort was mine…
just sayin’…
So by your logic, since I don’t consciously remember that period now, that means that if somebody had ripped my arm off during that same period, it would not have hurt, right?
No, that ISN’T my logic. I wasn’t talking about pain. I was talking about consciousness.
Also, it is common knowledge that even many adults often report that they can’t really remember the sensation of a past experience of intense pain — for example, the pain of childbirth. That doesn’t mean it didn’t really hurt while they were actually experiencing it.
Comment by CouldBeeWorse — December 1, 2006 @ 7:53 pm
I’ve not said anything about pain. I’ve said conscious.
You either have a bad memory or are just bad at logical discourse.
Pain is a part of life from the beginning to the end. It hurts to die as well. Go dwell on that for a while and then get back to me about what pain has to do with consciousness.
December 1st, 2006 at 8:48 pmYour citation on sentience is a tad weak….to say the least. Which scientific texts or articles are you referring???
Comment by mighty aphrodite — December 1, 2006 @ 7:54 pm
All of them. Get busy reading. It’ll take you atleast 15 years to catch up with all I’ve covered to come to this point.
December 1st, 2006 at 8:50 pmNumerous posts,
December 1st, 2006 at 10:42 pmI’m curious – how much sperm can you get from a cow?
I’m afraid that unbelievable’s idea of “logical discourse” seems to me mere ground-shifting and incoherence, cloaked in bluster. Anyone who really thinks that the key issue is “consciousness” should reflect on the comments by Barnoness Greenfield, an eminent authority on the neurology of consciousness, which I quoted above.
December 1st, 2006 at 11:12 pmI don’t care if a fetus is talking on the phone and emailing it’s little fetus friends, if it’s in my body and I want it gone — it’s gone.
Comment by Zooey
Zooey is god she determines life and death.
December 2nd, 2006 at 12:21 amSelf righteous lover of self
Mother/predator can murder its own.
Sweet talkin’ and a Natural Born Killer
Heh
No. Architecture and Engineering. But I did take two Biology courses, one Chemistry and several Physics classes. No doubt that that’s more Science than you’ve ever been exposed to.
At least I went to college and don’t have to lie about it.
Comment by unbelievable
Typical atheist fundy self righteousness full of themselves/shit
December 2nd, 2006 at 12:28 ampuffed up book knowledge so what – Very little wisdom
BIG difference
**-**–**—**- You’ve covered nothing and proven less. Your lack of ONE citation would be pathetic if it weren’t so sad. As you’re so well read in scientific absolutes and theory, I might imagine you are familiar with “Professor” Peter Singers’ treatise, “Animal Liberation”, in which he makes the case of the immorality of killing vermin as they “are sentient beings”. Again, I wonder how many PETA members support NARAL…..Ahhhh…the moral inconsistencies of some Leftists…..
Good night……
December 2nd, 2006 at 12:29 amI’m afraid that unbelievable’s idea of “logical discourse†seems to me mere ground-shifting and incoherence, cloaked in bluster.
Comment by CouldBeeWorse
Dude welcome to the world of libtardian thought.
December 2nd, 2006 at 2:23 amIt is a parallel universe here
They all do it. Most of it is made up, but that is what u get when u make yourself god.
They are very creative at name calling. I think is a speciality.
unbelievable has an very appropriate name.
Not real bright typical liberal college education not worth much.
em>who f*cking gives a shit?
Comment by Zooey
This pretty much describes this female libtard.
December 2nd, 2006 at 2:26 amSwears like a sailor.
As I oppose the death penalty, you are left with a one-legged stool – not much for you to stand on. As for the poor children of the West Bank, Golda Meir said it far better than I,
“Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.”
Unfortunately for your mother, you are pitiful and pathetic……
December 2nd, 2006 at 2:34 amDROPPING BOMBS ON CHILDREN in the WEST BANK?
December 2nd, 2006 at 2:35 amYes the suicide Palestinians who strap bombs to their kids.
Palenstine is a nice place to raise kids.
BAHHAHAHAHHAA!
Coward.
Meet me.
December 2nd, 2006 at 4:53 amwell, at least Flaco has decreased the postings about his favorite subject, a certain appendege of the male anatamoy.
December 2nd, 2006 at 9:37 am[...] In an attempt to “get a few things done on the way out the door and show people that…we really can govern,” the lame-duck House next week will vote on a bill to open up the Gulf Coast to offshore drilling. [...]
December 2nd, 2006 at 10:05 amFlaco = I-RIGHT-I
who else says ‘leftard’ and ‘fundy atheist’ and ‘female leftard’ within the same thread? and speaks with the same arrogant patronization?
I-RIGHT-I is even more obnoxious than I remembered.
December 2nd, 2006 at 10:15 amBabies feel no pain at all, say the pro-circumcision doctors that cut off foreskins with NO anasthetic!
December 2nd, 2006 at 12:33 pmSo-called ‘christians’ say:
“We must save the pre-born!”
And at the same time their actions show that they despise the post-born. The so-called ‘christians’ actively persue anything that will make the post-born’s live as miserable as possible (which is 100% opposite of what the red letters say in their ‘bible’). Once born the best ‘christians’ want for you is to be a bullet catcher for the slave masters.
I am NOT a ‘christian’ specifically because of the insitutionalized hypocrisy of every sect out there. The only followers of the teachings of Chirst I have ANY respect for are the Quakers.
To publicly call ones’ self an evangelical christian is to announce to the world that they are the world’s biggest anti-Christians. Just look at what the ‘Christian Coalition’ did last week: publicly declare that the mission of the ‘Christian Coalition’ is to ruthlessly fight against everyting Jesus stands for.
December 2nd, 2006 at 12:57 pm“We must save the pre-born!†And at the same time their actions show that they despise the post-born.” Comment by Robin Grant
********Dear Mr./Ms. Grant – - Ahhhhh, another “pro-abortion” advocate who is VERY good at sweeping generalizations.
You must have missed the newsflash detailing the level of American charitable generosity. Apparently, you also missed the good works by Americas churches and synagogues, too. (Euro’s not to be labelled chintzy, noted that through their punitive tax rates, they furnish the safety hammock for their poor.)
Pro-aborts are not any more, or less, concerned with helping the disadvantaged – for the vast majority it is about autonomy and control – “and what is, or isn’t, convenient for MEEEEEeeeee.”
So dear pro-”choice” Progs: Please continue to fight for the lives of condemned murderers (I am anti-death penalty), fight “evil” corporations, save ANWR, eat vegetarian, spoil your “companion animals”, fight school vouchers to save the noble NEA, righteously condemn any religion in public while santimoniously upholding the Constitutional right of rap “artists” and gangsta’s to be vulgar. Don’t forget to be offended when Iman’s get hauled off a plane – of course never acknowledging one of the groups ties to an Islamic “charity” which was suspected of funneling $$$ to Al Queda.
There are more “issues” for Progs to get riled up about – as well you should! That said, please allow me to wish you and yours a
December 2nd, 2006 at 1:25 pmSTUNNING SOLSTICE TO ALL – AND TO ALL A LONG NIGHT.
[...] From our progressive friends at Think Progress we have House Conservatives Push Fringe Abortion Measure Instead Of Vital Budget Bills [...]
December 2nd, 2006 at 4:57 pmTypical atheist fundy self righteousness full of themselves/shit puffed up book knowledge so what – Very little wisdom BIG difference
Comment by Flaco — December 2, 2006 @ 12:28 am
Most of my wisdom comes from experience. Proves how little you know.
But, as a hint, when you pitch an angry fit over people smarter than you, it proves that you are lacking in that capacity (which was already obvious anyway).
December 2nd, 2006 at 5:05 pmI’m afraid that unbelievable’s idea of “logical discourse†seems to me mere ground-shifting and incoherence, cloaked in bluster.
You’re afraid of that? Well, let me assure you that this is not the case. I never lost a debate in high school or college because I don’t argue anything in which I don’t understand both sides.
Anyone who really thinks that the key issue is “consciousness†should reflect on the comments by Barnoness Greenfield, an eminent authority on the neurology of consciousness, which I quoted above.
Comment by CouldBeeWorse — December 1, 2006 @ 11:12 pm
Interesting how you offerend nothing in the way of facts to support your assertion.
And how you missed the reality that pain is a result of being conscious. However, consciousness covers many more areas than just pain.
December 2nd, 2006 at 5:09 pmunbelievable has an very appropriate name.
Not real bright typical liberal college education not worth much.
Comment by Flaco — December 2, 2006 @ 2:23 am
Yes, it’s in reference to your ignorance. Definitely more appropriate in this thread than in some others.
“Not real bright”… Ha ha ha ha… It’s “not really bright”. And it sounds like you’re projecting again… And jealous.
December 2nd, 2006 at 5:11 pmFlaco = I-RIGHT-I
Comment by Shut Up — December 2, 2006 @ 10:15 am
IRI is too arrogant to use another name. Flaco is most likely a manifestation of MA.
December 2nd, 2006 at 5:15 pmRe#117 unbelievable
I know this is off topic, but I believe that all debates in their current format are useless because the participants do not have to argue both sides.
If you have to argue for something the first half and against that same something during the second half, you could not get away with the HYPOCRASY that makes the current debate format useless.
What do you think?
December 2nd, 2006 at 5:38 pm#70 Flaco, please cite your source, and it had not be connected with any murdering “Army of God” group.
December 2nd, 2006 at 7:29 pm“I never lost a debate in high school or college because I don’t argue anything in which I don’t understand both sides.”
Comment by *-*-*-*-*-
********Really??? You argue with people all the time that which you know nothing about. (Hint: your sweeping “pronouncements” comparing God to Santa Claus indicates no understanding of people’s faith.) BTW, if YOU won each debate I would suspect the opponents to be deaf-mutes….because you are often refutable….
December 2nd, 2006 at 7:31 pm#93 Of course logical discourse is beyond you. You didn’t need to inform us, it was quite clear.
December 2nd, 2006 at 7:32 pm#98 That is “book larnin”. Please don’t speak above it, it might not understand.
December 2nd, 2006 at 7:34 pm#100 You are a virgin, aren’t you, Flaco?
December 2nd, 2006 at 7:34 pm#123 Wow, Mr. South African Aphro, watch the projection, you know nothing about everything and insist that everybody knows it. Thanks.
December 2nd, 2006 at 7:36 pm#123 “Wow, Mr. South African Aphro, ” Comment by JPark
*****Dear JPark – on your return to North Korea please be advised that BBQ dog is no longer offered of the menus – there are none left to be had in that starving dictatorship….
December 2nd, 2006 at 8:22 pmFunny, MA, it is hilarious when you denigrate hungry people…not surprising though. I bet you had a hundred of them in the 80’s for the Ethiopians…and dammit, they are just as funny now.
December 2nd, 2006 at 8:27 pmI own you MA. Give it up.
December 2nd, 2006 at 8:36 pmReading through the comments I find that the point of debate has been missed by almost all.The issue is anesthetic for the baby about to be killed by having its body severed. If a woman wishes an abortion she should be willing to have the procedure prior to quickening, the period of gestation where the movement of the fetus becomes noticeable, as that point is when the brain is actually functioning enutero and the humane thing to do would be to anesthesize the living being that is forcibly removed from their enviroment. I am all for birth control options but abortion is not one of them. It seems that many who use that method are those who are more selfish than those with less sustenance or ability to raise a child. Give the “clump of tissue” pain relief. As for the 109th, they have made such a mess and intend to leave it for the Dems, that will play for their side when election time rolls around again and the bloated dollar continues to sink, whose fault will it be?
December 3rd, 2006 at 12:13 pmIf you have to argue for something the first half and against that same something during the second half, you could not get away with the HYPOCRASY that makes the current debate format useless.
What do you think?
Comment by criticalthinker — December 2, 2006 @ 5:38 pm
It’s a technique used by debate teams to strengthen their own position or be able to argue anything.
Peronally, I have a hard time giving the other side ammunition :) but by understanding their perspective, it is easier to take apart their arguments – as demostrated in this thread with MA’s silly comments…
Could you argue both sides equally effectively?
December 3rd, 2006 at 9:02 pmReally??? You argue with people all the time that which you know nothing about.
Never. Your inability to be specif validates that.
(Hint: your sweeping “pronouncements†comparing God to Santa Claus indicates no understanding of people’s faith.)
I understand people’s faith. I grew up Christian myself, so I have lived it. It’s because it upsets you so much that my Santa to god comparision is very effective – and true.
BTW, if YOU won each debate I would suspect the opponents to be deaf-mutes….because you are often refutable….
Comment by mighty aphrodite — December 2, 2006 @ 7:31 pm
You haven’t been able to refute me yet.
And as usual, fallacious logic from you to assume that you are an authority over something you do not understand (argument)… it’s how we know that you are not a lawyer. You can’t make one.
December 3rd, 2006 at 9:06 pmJPark
As a South Africa, I take offence and, what the hell are you talking about? I haven’t posted on this thread.
December 4th, 2006 at 11:55 am#130
I understand people’s faith. I grew up Christian myself, so I have lived it.
Typical bullshit from a arrogant libtard. Clueless best descibes this highly educated moron.
December 5th, 2006 at 12:15 pm