Lieberman: Talking To Iran And Syria Is Like The ‘Local Fire Dept Asking Arsonists To Help’
Lieberman: Talking To Iran And Syria Is Like The ‘Local Fire Dept Asking Arsonists To Help’
Today on CBS Face the Nation, Sen. Joe Lieberman (I-CT) argued that direct talks with Syria and Iran won’t work and compared it to “your local fire department asking a couple of arsonists to help put out the fire. These people are flaming the fire. They are the extremists.” Watch it:
As Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-NE) pointed out moments later, Lieberman is missing the point. Iran and Syria will “respond in their own self-interest,” Hagel noted, pointing to Iran’s efforts to aid U.S. goals in Afghanistan in 2002. U.K. Prime Minister Tony Blair and former Secretaries of State Colin Powell and James Baker have all criticized the Bush administration’s unwillingness to talk with Iran and Syria, and the Iraq Study Group’s proposal next week will likely recommend direct talks with Iran and Syria.
Transcript:
LIEBERMAN: I believe that America is a mighty enough nation that we should never fear to talk to anyone. But anyone who believes that Iran and Syria really want to help us to succeed in Iraq, I just is missing the reality. Asking Iran and Syria to help us succeed in Iraq is like your local fire department asking a couple of arsonists to help put out the fire. These people are flaming the fire. They are the extremists. They are supporting terrorists in Iraq, in Lebanon and of course in the Palestinian areas.
SCHIEFFER: Senator Hagel is shaking his head.
HAGEL: That’s not the point. Of course the Iranians and Syrians are not going to come to our assistance. Of course not. But they are going to respond in their own self-interest. All nations respond in their own self-interests. Tallyrand once said that nations don’t have friends. They have interests. He was right. It’s not in the interest of Syria or Jordan or Iran to have a failed state that would be a complete mess for the middle east.
Why did the Iranians help us in Afghanistan? Why did they cooperate with us in Afghanistan on intelligence matters and other issues? Because they didn’t want a failed state next to them which comes with all the problems. They didn’t want heroin moving into their borders. What we’re not getting here, is we’re not getting a full and comprehensive wide-lens appreciation of interests.
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122 Responses to “Lieberman: Talking To Iran And Syria Is Like The ‘Local Fire Dept Asking Arsonists To Help’”
No Joey, you got this one wrong. You are the extremist. More troops!
December 3rd, 2006 at 1:25 pmWhy don’t you ask the governor to start conscripting single mothers into the CT National Guard so you can send them to Iraq?
Well then,reelecting Joe was like kissing GWB. on the mouth.
December 3rd, 2006 at 1:25 pmi heard him say this, from another room… i thought he was crying…
December 3rd, 2006 at 1:27 pmDidn’t the last honest man tell the good people of CT that his BFF would be pulling troops out of Iraq by years end with significant troop reductions in 07
Thanks CT!
December 3rd, 2006 at 1:27 pmBINGO !!~~ EEEeeeewwwwww, I may have to wash my mouth out wiht battery acid.
December 3rd, 2006 at 1:29 pmIt would almost be like voting for a war monger in hopes that he would help end an unpopular war.
-GSD
December 3rd, 2006 at 1:31 pmHagel has a clue; but he has been to war. Lieberman, who has never worn the uniform, is clueless.
This war must end, even if that means, goodness gracious, talking to Iran and Syria. I don’t think you can end the war unless Iran and Syria are both involved. Lord knows that as neighbors of Iraq, their interest is more than a passing one.
December 3rd, 2006 at 1:32 pmDidn’t the last honest man tell the good people of CT that his BFF would be pulling troops out of Iraq by years end with significant troop reductions in 07
Thanks CT!
Comment by klyde
Hook. Line. Sinker.
December 3rd, 2006 at 1:33 pmIf we are lumping random countries into the pot, I’ve got one for Joe: Israel.
December 3rd, 2006 at 1:36 pmhey, TP - nothing on hadley???
December 3rd, 2006 at 1:39 pmhe was all over the place this morning… i heard a little of his spin, but i got too dizzy… couldn’t pay attention too long… guy’s a creep…
It’s like asking an ego-driven politician with no brains to come up with an intelligent solution to a colossal problem.
December 3rd, 2006 at 1:39 pm“wash my mouth out….”
Have you ever wondered why Laura has that ‘I just ate a persimmon’ look on her face?
December 3rd, 2006 at 1:40 pmHmmm Seems like the fire is the failed occupation of Iraq, and Joe, you’re the arsonist whose idiot ideas consist of throwing lots more gas on it to put it out?
December 3rd, 2006 at 1:40 pm9-Karl Rove’s one lone success in this last election was getting Lieberman re elected
Rove got more than a helping hand from the Democratic Party.
December 3rd, 2006 at 1:44 pmLamont won the primairy and was then left on the wayside by the money bags of Washington.
9-Karl Rove’s one lone success in this last election was getting Lieberman
re elected.
Rove got more than a helping hand from the Democratic Party.
December 3rd, 2006 at 1:48 pmLamont won the primary and then got left on the wayside by the money bags of Washington.
I still don’t see what good Syria or Iran would do.
We’ve been painted into a corner,Folks.
The violence (against us,anyway) won’t stop until every last Occupier is off Iraqi soil.
December 3rd, 2006 at 1:50 pmIf you want more violence,send more troops.
This is off topic,but…
I think the Rumsfeld memo is totally bogus;contrived by the administration AFTER the elections.
December 3rd, 2006 at 1:55 pmAmanda,
Do you believe Iran and Syria want to help us in Iraq? You never address this. Hagel points out that they will act in their own self-interest, which is the key here. With regards to the Taliban, Iran’s interests matched those of the US. The Iranians are not interested in an extremist Sunni group to their east, and the US is not interested in any extremists Muslims groups period. Does this translate to Iraq? No. Iran and the US do not have the same interests in Iraq, which is exactly what Lieberman is saying.
Iran is supporting the insurgents in Iraq that are causing problems, and Syria isn’t exactly helping us out either. Both are interested in carving out their own sphere of influence in Iraq, which is not in US interests at all. Iran and Syria are the arsonists in Iraq.
While it’s obvious that Iran wouldn’t want an al Qaeda-controlled failed state next to them (in other words, a largely Sunni extremist group), they are no more interested in a democratic and autonomous Iraq.
Iran and Syria have to be evicted from the Iraqi arena, period.
December 3rd, 2006 at 1:58 pmLieberman still pontificating on Iraq.Just ask him how did his last prediction(Significant troop drawdown by end 2006 ) on Iraq turn out.
December 3rd, 2006 at 2:01 pmAnd for all the gasbags in CT that voted for this dispicable human,I hope you are proud everyday another American family looses a member in Iraq?
former Secretaries of State Colin Powell and James Baker
Now what they say we should do? I thought they were blowhards with no sense?
December 3rd, 2006 at 2:09 pmI think the Rumsfeld memo is totally bogus;contrived by the administration AFTER the elections.
Comment by Bingo!
You could be right, Bingo.
December 3rd, 2006 at 2:10 pmthey [Iran] are no more interested in a democratic and autonomous Iraq.
uhhhmm.. with a majority Shia populace id say they ARE interested in a democratic Iraq… why do people keep assuming democracy = something good. I don’t see alot of people hooting and hollering about the wonders of democracy in iraq espousing the wonder of democracy in palestine.
And come on boys, don’t you know, Iran won’t return Israel’s phone calls so we arent allowed to talk to Iran on the phone…
December 3rd, 2006 at 2:10 pmSeixon, It’s not enough to say you want to have an influence in Iraq and then screem at anyone who objects to the yeas and 1 - 2 Billion dollars a week we are spending to hold on to that influence. The reality of this situaton is that it continues to cost us lives and billons of dollars a day. Yet, the best bushco can come up with is, “To leave eary leads to defeat.” Heck we’ve been defeated for years, buy cowboy, high school challenged bush doesn’t undertand the bigger issues of life. This has and remians an American oil interest, otherwise we would have been out of there long ago, but bushco just couldn’t think two weeks ahead and has always gotten everything he wanted in life.
So it really doesn’t matter what Iran and Syria what is motivating their interests if we dont’ reveal out interests…and it’s not about creating a democracy in Iraq. The reality is that they can exert influence in the area because we have failed to undertand the social issues on the larger world stage. It is our failurre that has created the current situation. We must talk to those who have influence, because it is no longer possible for an American President to say, “This is what we want and you better do it.” Bush has been successful in destroying America’s roll of influence and power on the world stage.
December 3rd, 2006 at 2:12 pm#19:
December 3rd, 2006 at 2:13 pmSeixon, that is a really naive observation.
You cannot expect just to say to Iran and Syria “Hey, you can’t do anything about Iraq.”
The two countries border each other. Iran getting involved in Iraqi affairs, and vice-versa, is almost inevitable.
Iraq is the centerpoint of the middle east right now. We cannot simply “evict” other countries from the arena.
Seixon:
You may have a point there,my man;but who’s going to do the ‘evicting’ of Iran and Syria?
December 3rd, 2006 at 2:18 pmDon’t we have our hands full already?
#19 - Seixon,
Once again your rationale and history of the situation are somewhat off. You said:
“Iran is supporting the insurgents in Iraq that are causing problems, and Syria isn’t exactly helping us out either.”
This is patently untrue. The insurgents in Iraq are overwhelmingly predominantly Sunni. The Iranians are Shia. The Iranians may be supporting the Shia militias that are fomenting much of the genocidal killing that has been going on. This is precisely the reason we need to talk to them. You said that we need to remove Iran and Syria from the Iraqi arena entirely. There is NO way to accomplish that goal without talking to them. We don’t have the ability nor the stupidity to attempt to exculpate them militarily (and EVERY one of our Generals would agree with me on that point). You damn dead-enders think that the military is a scalpel to be used to perform surgery on whatever ails us politically in the Middle East. The military is a broad sword, not a scalpel. Without the use of diplomacy in the now-more-volatile Middle East, we are truly lost and our troops in Iraq will be targeted with even greater frequency; something I, for one, would rather avoid as I have several friends there.
December 3rd, 2006 at 2:18 pmSorry, I left out Syria out of the latter half of #26. But the point is still the same
December 3rd, 2006 at 2:19 pmSeixon just can’t resist the lure of Think Progress — maybe it was the word ‘arsonist’ in the headline.
December 3rd, 2006 at 2:24 pmWell, of course, remember how they decided to go to war in 2003 and since then 600,000 civilians have been killed. Damn Iran and Syria. Damn those firestarters…
December 3rd, 2006 at 2:24 pmWith statements of a presidential hopeful like joey and the behaviour of the st-in-c, why don’t we recruite our presidents directly out of mental institutions? It can’t be worse than that.
December 3rd, 2006 at 2:26 pmAmazing as well are the Foreign Policy skills of some true believers. NOT to include the neighbors of a country in war, would be like fire fighters just caring about the one house, letting the fire take over the whole block. Lieberman is just plain dumb, from the common sense point of view.
Zooey:
It’s as if they are saying Rummy was asking to be replaced.
December 3rd, 2006 at 2:26 pmThis is a cover Rummy’s a*s memo,and I don’t buy it.
Iran and Syria have to be evicted from the Iraqi arena, period.
Comment by Seixon
Thats right my friend and then make Iraq another star in the US flag, cuz thats the way it should be…who? Iraqis? Who are they? Did US ask them if they wanted to be invaded? No. So, now, its in their iraqi interest that US takes away the oil and leave Iran and Syria out of this game. Well spoken…as usual.
December 3rd, 2006 at 2:30 pmJohn Deek,
Democracy does not include political parties having armed militias. That isn’t a democracy - thus the Palestinian “democracy” is no such thing. Would you call the US a democracy if the GOP and Democrats each had their own militias that fought each other? Now, things are starting to become like this in Iraq, especially with Mr. al-Sadr’s militia. That’s why it’s in the interest of democracy to neutralize him. A democracy cannot exist when political parties have militias engaged in fighting others.
Iran is interested in the Palestinian form of “democracy” in Iraq, if that’s what you were getting at. Which means a Shia-dominated Hezbollah-like government which Iran can use, well, just like Hezbollah.
SouthWest Bob,
Once again a liberal whips out the old debunked “war for oil” canard. Oil certainly is part of the equation, but it isn’t as simple and clear cut as you would have it. The US is only interested in access to oil, not controlling it. More to the point, the US is interested in oil in the hands of people that don’t want to kill us. If it were all about wanting oil, why doesn’t the US just buddy up with the Iranians and drop the sanctions against them and start buying oil from them again? Why did they wait until Libya gave up their WMD programs until they revoked the sanctions and start to buy oil from them again?
Also, the US is interested in a democratic and friendly Iraq becoming more of an oil powerhouse so that we can become less dependent on the autocratic Saudi Arabia. The US really has no interest being friends with the Saudis since they only cause us problems. Yet we have to because we get lots of oil from them. Now if Iraq was pumping out more to their potential, say 6 million barrels per day, then we could buy more from Iraq and less from Saudi Arabia. At that point we could be more harsh with Saudi Arabia to implement reforms in their country. Right now, the Saudis can basically flip us the bird at anything we say.
At the foundation of all of this is that the US is interested in freedom across the Middle East.
Just imagine the Middle East as a democracy. Oil-rich peoples ready to spend their cash on American products, American services. From a strictly corporate/capitalist point of view, freedom in the Middle East would be genius.
There has been tons of investment in Iraq already, even with all the violence, by many countries, including the US. These are brand new markets, ripe for exploration by the world economy. Who will benefit? Everyone. The peoples of the Middle East, with freedom, would be able to enter the modern world and trade their oil resources for all the luxuries of life that we enjoy in the Western world. Just like, say, Norway.
Right now all of this is limited to the regimes in the Middle East, like the Saudi royal family. They are affording themselves the luxuries of the Western world, while denying their people the same thing. Hand in hand with this, people with nice things are far less likely to want to go around killing people, or risk being killed, than those who have nothing. You can easily see this in any Western country: most violent criminals aren’t exactly rich.
It is in our nation’s interest, and in the interest of all peoples in the world, for the Middle East to be free and allowed to prosper.
December 3rd, 2006 at 2:30 pm# 31:
Good point,Juan.
December 3rd, 2006 at 2:32 pmThis is a cover Rummy’s a*s memo,and I don’t buy it.
Comment by Bingo!
We may be seeing a fair few of these CYA memos in the next two years.
December 3rd, 2006 at 2:33 pm#35:
December 3rd, 2006 at 2:35 pmUh, Seixon, we do have militias
I’m not normally this mad, but shouldn’t Joe register as the agent of a foreign power? In whose interest is this fool speaking? The answer has got to be, the Likud Party. It’s certainly NOT in our interests to be that foolish. It’s not in Israel’s.
Voting for Joe Lieberman was like tongue-kissing GWB and Ariel Sharon while having a three-way. How can the people of Connecticut have been so crazy?
Of course, some of the people might have been mislead by his rhetoric about “Nobody wants to bring our troops home more than I do.” Actually, almost everybody wants to bring them home more than you do, Joe.
December 3rd, 2006 at 2:39 pmDemocracy does not include political parties having armed militias.
Comment by Seixon
KKK and NRA rings a bell?
You can easily see this in any Western country: most violent criminals aren’t exactly rich.
No, they are filthy rich. They own corporations, banks and financial institutions where the lives of hundred of million people are decided with the ink of a pen.
It is in our nation’s interest, and in the interest of all peoples in the world, for the Middle East to be free and allowed to prosper.
Comment by Seixon,
December 3rd, 2006 at 2:42 pmMiss Norway, when asked about World Peace in the Miss Universe Contest
green917,
The Iranians are supporting their Shia brethren in Iraq. They want a piece of the influence pie.
“You said that we need to remove Iran and Syria from the Iraqi arena entirely. There is NO way to accomplish that goal without talking to them. ”
There is no way of accomplishing that goal without talking to them?? Is there a way of accomplishing that by talking to them? Might as well go talk to North Korea in hopes of persuading them to give up nukes, or talking to China in hopes of getting them to stop meddling in Africa. You cannot talk someone out of something that is in their own self-interest, unless you have something else for them that is even more attractive.
I’d love to hear the reasons, from you, why talking to Iran would suddenly have them stop meddling in Iraq. Explain it to me. I’m all ears.
Juan C,
“Well, of course, remember how they decided to go to war in 2003 and since then 600,000 civilians have been killed. Damn Iran and Syria. Damn those firestarters…”
1. 600,000 civilians have not been killed in this conflict.
2. Who is responsible for majority of those civilians killed?
3. Are Syria and (especially) Iran flaming the fire in Iraq or not?
“Thats right my friend and then make Iraq another star in the US flag, cuz thats the way it should be…who? Iraqis? Who are they? Did US ask them if they wanted to be invaded? No. So, now, its in their iraqi interest that US takes away the oil and leave Iran and Syria out of this game. Well spoken…as usual.”
The majority of Iraqis have no qualms about the removal of Saddam Hussein, a fact that I know you hate. The US is taking away Iraqi oil? No, they are buying it, like they do in every other country. Should I be lured into playing with strawmen like you are here, I would say you are proposing that Iraq shouldn’t be able to sell their own natural resources to anyone, because *gasp* someone might be able to buy oil!
ItsJustKarma,
“Amazing as well are the Foreign Policy skills of some true believers. NOT to include the neighbors of a country in war, would be like fire fighters just caring about the one house, letting the fire take over the whole block. Lieberman is just plain dumb, from the common sense point of view.”
No, it would be like firefighters not including the arsonists living next door to the building they are trying to extinguish…
December 3rd, 2006 at 2:45 pmOf course, Iran and Syria are not going to help our goals in Iraq. Britain and Poland aren’t in Iraq to help our goals either. They are there to support their own, and probably let us know that is the case with each diplomatic mission they make to the U.S. and vice versa. This is how the world is supposed to work.
Our job is to explain to Syria and Iran how our goals can align so that they ALSO become brokers for peace. The alternative is to continue to try to do it alone, which is expensive in lives and treasure and has proven to be very, very unsuccessful.
Lieberman doesn’t understand that and this is why he has no business talking seriously about foreign policy.
December 3rd, 2006 at 2:46 pmZooey:
I’m going to turn the computer and the football off and get some yard work done;will check you later.
December 3rd, 2006 at 2:47 pmThanks for your comments.
“How can the people of Connecticut have been so crazy?”
What’s more likely, the majority of the people of Connecticut being crazy, or you being crazy? Think about it.
Juan C,
“KKK and NRA rings a bell?”
So the KKK and NRA are political parties in the US? They kill their political rivals? Yawn.
“No, they are filthy rich. They own corporations, banks and financial institutions where the lives of hundred of million people are decided with the ink of a pen.”
You’ll notice I said “violent criminals”. You know, like the ones in Iraq that are slaughtering people. Are they poor or rich? How about in Africa? Is there a relationship between violence and wealth/well-being? Contemplate it for a second.
December 3rd, 2006 at 2:48 pmMiss Norway, when asked about World Peace in the Miss Universe Contest
Comment by Juan C
SNAP!
December 3rd, 2006 at 2:49 pmz adura,
“Of course, Iran and Syria are not going to help our goals in Iraq.”
Watch out, you’re going against the liberal conventional wisdom. Prepare to be flamed.
“Our job is to explain to Syria and Iran how our goals can align so that they ALSO become brokers for peace.”
That’s just the thing: our goals cannot align. The Iranians want Iraq to be like a new Lebanon or even a Syria, a client-state they can control with the use of a new Hezbollah. Syria acts as a form of client-state for Iran, since they are too weak to stand up on their own without backing. Iran is the power-broker in the region, and they have no common interest with us in Iraq. We want the Iraqis to stay autonomous from Iran, and Iran wants to control Iraq like they have wanted for decades.
It’s like trying to find a common interest between Hamas and Israel: there is none.
December 3rd, 2006 at 2:54 pmI’m going to turn the computer and the football off and get some yard work done;will check you later.
Thanks for your comments.
Comment by Bingo!
Good idea, Bingo. I’m outta here, too.
December 3rd, 2006 at 2:55 pm[…] Tell me who sounds more realistic here: LIEBERMAN: I believe that America is a mighty enough nation that we should never fear to talk to anyone. But anyone who believes that Iran and Syria really want to help us to succeed in Iraq, I just is missing the reality. Asking Iran and Syria to help us succeed in Iraq is like your local fire department asking a couple of arsonists to help put out the fire. These people are flaming the fire. They are the extremists. They are supporting terrorists in Iraq, in Lebanon and of course in the Palestinian areas. […]
December 3rd, 2006 at 2:56 pmThe majority of Iraqis have no qualms about the removal of Saddam Hussein, a fact that I know you hate.
As far as I know they are willing to die in order to kill invading forces or the other religious group, but they were not willing to die to depose Saddam. That really tells a lot.
a fact that I know you hate.
Yeah…cuz I liked him so much…not as much as US in the past, but I liked him anyway.
The US is taking away Iraqi oil? No, they are buying it, like they do in every other country.
Ha ha ha!!! Perhaps thats the reason why the first thing the US forces did when arrived Baghdad was the seizing of the Oil Ministry whereas the whole city was left to plunderers. Maybe US just wanted to know what the price of the oil really was.
1. 600,000 civilians have not been killed in this conflict.
How much is too much for you?
2. Who is responsible for majority of those civilians killed?
Before the invasion, Saddam. After the invasion, US.
3. Are Syria and (especially) Iran flaming the fire in Iraq or not?
December 3rd, 2006 at 2:56 pmIm sure they have their own agendas and I dont empathize with religious fanatics but THEY DID NOT INVADE IRAQ.
Seixon; check my post on the previous thread. The Saudis are actively engaged in arming the Sunnis in Iraq. Perhaps we could ask them to stop, since we have so much influence with them?
December 3rd, 2006 at 3:00 pmA democracy cannot exist when political parties have militias engaged in fighting others.
Comment by Seixon
Yes, Seixon. This is precisely what’s happening in Iraq today. And it is also precisely what happened in the U.S. back in 1861-1865. So, I assume you agree that Iraq is now in a civil war?
December 3rd, 2006 at 3:01 pm2. Who is responsible for majority of those civilians killed?
Before the invasion, Saddam. After the invasion, US.
Actually some of those can be put at the feet of the first Bush. He encourafed the Iraqis to rise up after Gulf war I, and then left them to be slaughtered.
December 3rd, 2006 at 3:03 pmIs there a relationship between violence and wealth/well-being? Contemplate it for a second.
Comment by Seixon
You, as always, just look the consequences. Therefore you just see a bunch of violent barbarians (africans, latinos, blacks), but you never critizice the guys who are producing such a enormous gap between rich and poor people. Africans? Who put generals in power in the first place? Do those african generals manufacture their own tanks, guns and flamethrowers? So, yeah, poor africans kill poor africans. Who sold them weapons? Care to find out? Ohhh, but I guess Europe and the US are the civilized ones, right?
So the KKK and NRA are political parties in the US? They kill their political rivals? Yawn
Even worse!!! And they are not persecuted by law enforcers!!!
And they kill their political/ethnical/social rivals.
December 3rd, 2006 at 3:03 pmLeiberman is parroting the Olmert line. He should be forced to register as the agent of a foreign government.
December 3rd, 2006 at 3:03 pmHey, j and zoo. HOw are you doing?
December 3rd, 2006 at 3:11 pmYeah, I agree with that. And he is a hard-headed, too. Most be the blooming of sexual impulses.
December 3rd, 2006 at 3:19 pmYou have tor read this article in today’s LA times. Nails it. The headline reads: Mideast allies near a state of panic; U.S. leaders’ visits to the region reap only warnings and worry.
“The only regional leader to voice unqualified support for the Bush administration has been Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, who has gone so far as to say that the Iraq invasion contributed to regional stability.”
http://www.latimes.com/ news/ nationworld/ world/ la-fg-usmideast3dec03,0,7181716
December 3rd, 2006 at 3:23 pmTo blame Iran and Syria for the problems in Iraq is like blaming Canada and Mexico for not stopping us from invading in the first place.
Darn Canadians.
And it actually disproves the warn-out illegal immigrant justification, seems Mexicans truly don’t want to do the jobs that Americans refuse to do.
December 3rd, 2006 at 3:32 pm35,
Democracy does not include political parties having armed militias.
Roughly half the states have an armed militia (Seperate from the National guard) that is under sole control of the state governor (a member of a political party).
December 3rd, 2006 at 3:41 pmI’m sick of the Israelis running US foreign poolicy! Screw you Joe, are you an American, or an Israeli???
December 3rd, 2006 at 3:49 pmComment by george bush’s legacy — December 3, 2006 @ 3:47 pm
I always miss all the fun :)
December 3rd, 2006 at 3:50 pmpoolicy… typo… the result of Sunday beers and the NFL
December 3rd, 2006 at 3:50 pmJuan, the Pinter lecture was awesome!!! Thanks for posting it. I left a couple of notes on it, but it was late.
December 3rd, 2006 at 3:52 pmI’m sick of the Israelis running US foreign poolicy! Screw you Joe, are you an American, or an Israeli???
He isn’t considered that far off when it comes to Israel, compared to many.
http://www.muhajabah.com/ muslims4kucinich/ archives/ 2003/ 08/ kucinich_tops_a.php
December 3rd, 2006 at 3:53 pmOff topic, but priceless. I posted this last night.
I put to you that the United States is without doubt the greatest show on the road. Brutal, indifferent, scornful and ruthless it may be but it is also very clever. As a salesman it is out on its own and its most saleable commodity is self love. It’s a winner.
Listen to all American presidents on television say the words, ‘the American people’, as in the sentence, ‘I say to the American people it is time to pray and to defend the rights of the American people and I ask the American people to trust their president in the action he is about to take on behalf of the American people.’
It’s a scintillating stratagem. Language is actually employed to keep thought at bay. The words ‘the American people’ provide a truly voluptuous cushion of reassurance. You don’t need to think. Just lie back on the cushion. The cushion may be suffocating your intelligence and your critical faculties but it’s very comfortable. This does not apply of course to the 40 million people living below the poverty line and the 2 million men and women imprisoned in the vast gulag of
December 3rd, 2006 at 3:54 pmprisons, which extends across the US.
I left a couple of notes on it, but it was late.
Comment by stonehinge
Wow!! This is funny. I just posted it again, cause I am reading it again at this very same moment.
December 3rd, 2006 at 3:56 pmYeah, I read your notes. Thank you.
Yeah, Juan, let’s put some more Pinter in-line. This Liebermann thread is bullsh*t anyway.
———————–
When Pinter spoke about finding truth in his plays, I immediately recognized that same process operating in my own life on so many different levels. It is not easy to emerge from the stupendous depth of propaganda and outright lies which pass for fact in the USA.
— Pinter
December 3rd, 2006 at 4:03 pmMore from Pinter:
Very much the same can be said for the performance of the North Korean political economy after the war. In fact, they completely outstripped South Korean growth despite massive contributions from the US. It was not until the 1980’s, due to the collapse of their markets in the USSR and the outrageous interference from the US, that the North Korean economy began to falter. And now we have the North Vietnamese success to consider as well. With the data in-hand, we must surely conclude that Imperialistic Capitalism disguised as Globalization sucks hind tit…there is no other legitimate conclusion.
December 3rd, 2006 at 4:09 pmHow many people do you have to kill before you qualify to be described as a mass murderer and a war criminal? One hundred thousand? More than enough, I would have thought. Therefore it is just that Bush and Blair be arraigned before the International Criminal Court of Justice.
But Bush has been clever. He has not ratified the International Criminal Court of Justice. Therefore if any American soldier or for that matter politician finds himself in the dock Bush has warned that he will send in the marines. But Tony Blair has ratified the Court and is therefore available for prosecution. We can
let the Court have his address if they’re interested. It is Number 10, Downing Street, London. Death in this context is irrelevant. Both Bush and Blair place death well away on the back burner. At least 100,000
Iraqis were killed by American bombs and missiles before the Iraq insurgency began. These people are of no moment. Their deaths don’t exist. They are blank. They are not even recorded as being dead. ‘We don’t do body counts,’ said the American general Tommy Franks.
Early in the invasion there was a photograph published on the front page of British newspapers of Tony Blair kissing the cheek of a little Iraqi boy. ‘A grateful child,’ said the caption. A few days later there was a story and photograph, on an inside page, of another four-year-old boy with no arms. His family had been blown up by a missile. He was the only
survivor. ‘When do I get my arms back?’ he asked. The story was dropped. Well, Tony Blair wasn’t holding him in his arms, nor the body of any other mutilated child, nor the body of any bloody corpse. Blood is dirty. It dirties your shirt and tie when you’re making a sincere speech on television.
The 2,000 American dead are an embarrassment. They are transported to their graves in the dark. Funerals are unobtrusive, out of harm’s way. The mutilated rot in their beds, some for the rest of their lives. So the dead and the mutilated both rot, in different kinds of graves.em>
December 3rd, 2006 at 4:10 pmLieberman: Talking To Iran And Syria Is Like The ‘Local Fire Dept Asking Arsonists To Help’
More like invading a country causing the death of 600,000 innocent civilians in three years to depose a dictator who had killed less people in twenty years.
December 3rd, 2006 at 4:18 pmlieberman is so completely unserious. Why would anyone speak to him about Iraq?
December 3rd, 2006 at 4:19 pm.
I assume liebeman always acts on his anti-arab bigotry, and always for the benefit of israel. america’s interests, and actions related to the same, are secondary.
joe’s opinion on the matter is the same as that of the trash at LGF, and should be similarly regarded.
December 3rd, 2006 at 4:27 pmlieberman is an anti-arab bigot who is advocating the militant israeli hawk position. america’s interests are always secondary.
his opinions should be treated with the same disdain as those of the trash posting at LGF.
December 3rd, 2006 at 4:28 pmIt didn’t post the first time … the point stands alone without needing repeating. sorry about that.
December 3rd, 2006 at 4:39 pmMore like invading a country causing the death of 600,000 innocent civilians in three years to depose a dictator who had killed less people in twenty years.
Comment by Evil Spaniard — December 3, 2006 @ 4:18 pm
According to a month ago here, it was 150,000, more than three times the previous estimates.
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/11/09/150000/
150,000:Number of Iraqi civilians who have been killed in the war — “about three times previously accepted estimates†— according to Iraq’s health minister. November 9, 2006 7:39 pm | Comment (59)
December 3rd, 2006 at 4:50 pmI was watching him this morning - I had to change the channel on that remark. Clueless Joe.
December 3rd, 2006 at 5:04 pm150,000:Number of Iraqi civilians who have been killed in the war — “about three times previously accepted estimates†— according to Iraq’s health minister. November 9, 2006 7:39 pm | Comment (59)
Comment by Tundra — December 3, 2006 @ 4:50 pm
USA GOP accepted estimates, my friend. The Lancet gave a number far higher two years ago, and using the same methods used to count other massacres around the world.
You can find more info in the NYT (I know, conservatives hate it):
A team of American and Iraqi public health researchers has estimated that 600,000 civilians have died in violence across Iraq since the 2003 American invasion, the highest estimate ever for the toll of the war here.
The figure breaks down to about 15,000 violent deaths a month, a number that is quadruple the one for July given by Iraqi government hospitals and the morgue in Baghdad and published last month in a United Nations report in Iraq. That month was the highest for Iraqi civilian deaths since the American invasion.
But you can find it also in the WSJ, a far more trusted source for conservatives:
A new study asserts that roughly 600,000 Iraqis have died from violence since the U.S.-led invasion in March 2003, a figure many times higher than any previous estimate.
…
The Defense Department until 2004 eschewed any effort to compute the number of Iraqi dead but this summer released a study putting the civilian casualty rate between May and August at 117 people a day. Other tabulations using different methodologies put the range of total civilian fatalities so far from about 50,000 to more than 150,000. President Bush in December said “30,000, more or less” had died in Iraq during the invasion and in the violence since.
Iraqi hospital workers wheeled a body into the morgue Wednesday.
The Johns Hopkins team conducted its study using a methodology known as “cluster sampling.” That involved randomly picking 47 clusters of households for a total 1,849 households, scattered across Iraq. Team members interviewed each household about any deaths in the family during the 40 months since the invasion, as well as in the year before the invasion. The team says it reviewed death certificates for 92% of all deaths reported. Based on those figures, it tabulated national mortality rates for various periods before and after the start of the war. The mortality rate last year was nearly four times the preinvasion rate, the study found.
“Since March 2003, an additional 2.5% of Iraq’s population has died above what would have occurred without conflict,” the report said. The country’s population is roughly 24 million people.
Human Rights Watch has estimated Saddam Hussein’s regime killed 250,000 to 290,000 people over 20 years.
…
Overall, the study found 55% of deaths since March 2003 were due to violence. Of that subset, 56% resulted from gunshots; car bombs and other explosives accounted for 27%, and airstrikes caused 13%. The rest were due to other factors.
Paul Bolton, a public-health researcher at Boston University who has reviewed the study, called the methodology “excellent” and said it was standard procedure in a wide range of studies he has worked on. “You can’t be sure of the exact number, but you can be quite sure that you are in the right ballpark,” he said.
So, what’s your point? That the USA GOP is cooking the numers? Mine too.
December 3rd, 2006 at 5:07 pm“but apparently elections don’t register at the White House unless the voters dip their fingers in purple ink” = my favorite quote from Frank Rich’s column so kindly supplied above.
December 3rd, 2006 at 5:10 pm#63 - impeachcheneythenbush,
December 3rd, 2006 at 5:14 pmThis is the correct link to the LA Times article.
Lieberman doesn’t mind playing the fool to make Republican hopefuls look good. He knows his role well - soften things up for Republicans
December 3rd, 2006 at 5:28 pmSomeone REMIND President BUSH.
We dont dont negosiate with terrorist.
December 3rd, 2006 at 5:36 pm(Axis of evil not included)
Does Lieberman have dual citizenship? Obviously he does, and has no compunctions about sending our youngest to die and be blown up to preserve the biblical boundaries of the fascist state, Israel
and no one wants to mention it for the fear of being called an anti-semite, but I have no fear of that label, being a realist who recognizes that Israel’s interests in the ME are not the interests of the US and they should not be.
Lieberman obviously from the beginning has been the poster boy for Israel first, no matter if he had to stick a sword into theheart of America. Go Joe–you will get that biblical boundary first before you will put the interests of the United States first.
and, here is something I do not understand. If Israel is our “ally”, why on earth did it not send their young to die for it’s protection in Iraq? Not a one of their young had to put themselves in harm’s way, but we hear the roar of the cheerleading from the state of Israel, and Joe Lieberman, to keep up the war in Iraq and have our troops killed rather than thiers, and possibly Iran and the rest of the ME, in order that our “ally” Israel, whose actions are not in the same interests of Americans, stay the course and increase it’s war crimes against others–so that those “biblical boundaries? will once more be restored after two thousand years of defeat in the area.
Someone please explain–are Israel’s interests in the ME, even though they take the stance of cheerleading from the bleachers so that our troops die and not theirs–the same as reasonable Americans who take the time to observe this?
December 3rd, 2006 at 5:46 pmI hope it turns out good, that jumpin joe fled the coop.
December 3rd, 2006 at 7:28 pmHe has such a narrow scope. Maybe tunnel?
george dangerous.
half and j — the “special relationship” gets explained right here
December 3rd, 2006 at 7:54 pmIran and Syria have to be evicted from the Iraqi arena, period.
Comment by Seixon — December 3, 2006 @ 1:58 pm
Further proof that there is no god… Seixon is back.
Ugh!
December 3rd, 2006 at 8:45 pmSeixon just can’t resist the lure of Think Progress — maybe it was the word ‘arsonist’ in the headline.
Comment by Zooey — December 3, 2006 @ 2:24 pm
I think of him as more of a ‘lighting his farts on fire’ kind of guy… :)
December 3rd, 2006 at 8:47 pmWow am I glad I voted for W. We could have had this fool for VP! What a disaster.
December 3rd, 2006 at 8:53 pmAs a Jewish person, Joe is too biased to be making any decisions regarding the Middle East.
December 3rd, 2006 at 8:55 pmNever did light my farts like Sexion does.
December 3rd, 2006 at 8:58 pmNever did light my farts like Sexion does.
Comment by ForTruth — December 3, 2006 @ 8:58 pm
I bet he has ‘how to’ instructions on his silly little blog… But no way I’m going there. Won’t give him the hits or the satisfaction.
December 3rd, 2006 at 9:11 pmReading the anti-Semitic tripe of “half-wit triangle” and the vulgar poster after him/her, I am reminded of the hyocrisy and hatred of some Leftists. These same people never seem to remember that modern Israel has been under attack since Day One in 1948. They forget that the complacency of WWII Europe and the horrors suffered. They forget that gas chambers did not start out with bricks …but with words. These same people who cry for Palestinian suicide “martyrs” forget dead Israelis. People who make excuses for Hezbollah and Hamas have a difficult time recounting the leaders of Palestine - Hint: there are no former leders of Palestine. People who would not wince if Israel were wiped off the map cry crocodile tears for the poor souls suffering from”global warming”.
In short, it has become quite “fashionable” among the intelligensia and apparatchik of the Left to hate Israel. Fair-weather friends in the American Left should never be trusted by friends of Israel. Israel is lucky and we are blessed by the US/Israeli alliance.
Happy Chanukuh and Merry CHRISTmas!!
December 3rd, 2006 at 11:37 pm[…] Senator Joe Lieberman (I-CT) is another turd who’s not taking responsibility for pushing us into a disasterous, murderous war. Check out this video exchange with Senator Chuck Hagel (R-NE): Today on CBS Face the Nation, Sen. Joe Lieberman (I-CT) argued that direct talks with Syria and Iran won’t work and compared it to “your local fire department asking a couple of arsonists to help put out the fire. These people are flaming the fire. They are the extremists.†[…]
December 3rd, 2006 at 11:58 pmHey Hoity-Hermaphrodite…None of us hate “The Jews†Jewish people. I don’t anyways….
I hate when Jewish people get too Jewie like Heiberman…
Classy! I’m sure you have no problem standing up when anyone says the N word though for being a racist huh? Noone else would call you out on it here though. because it’s against Israel, it’s OK.
December 4th, 2006 at 1:19 amTundra - These are the same people who would spit on their mothers, steal her money and have the nerve to ask mom to bail them out of jail….I knew the Left would be gleeful when that august institution, the UN declared Zionism a form of racism. I think the anti-Semitic Left are in the same cult as the KKK….
Merry Christmas to you!
December 4th, 2006 at 1:38 amHow many more wars does the US have to fight for Israel and Israel-firsters like Lieberman?
“Israel has been under attack the Arabs since 1948!”
The Jews invaded the land and stole it from the Arabs. Let’s see Arabs set up an Arab state in the US and see how many decades it takes before the Americans accept the “Arab state”.
“But the Arabs already have their own states! Jews have been wandering the earth for 2000 years!”
Then lets see the Gypsies set up a state in US, and see how many decades it takes Americans to accept the “Gypsy state”.
“But the Jews’ homeland is in Israel”
Let’s see the Romanians return to their homeland in Mongolia, and see how many decades it takes for the Mongolians to accept the Romanian state.
“But the Bible says”
FUK YOUR BIBLE. I FLUSH THE BIBLE AND THE KORAN DOWN THE TOILET. DON’T EXPECT 6 MILLION REFUGEES TO GIVE A SHT ABOUT YOUR BULLSHT RELIGION.
December 4th, 2006 at 2:34 amNoone else would call you out on it here though. because it’s against Israel, it’s OK.
Comment by Tundra
You are right. Poor jewish people. It must be tiresome to kill palestinians all day.
December 4th, 2006 at 2:38 amI share half’s opinion.
December 4th, 2006 at 3:02 amAnd I came to the conclusion to scroll over
those dumb posts from the braindead camp.
Libaman sucks big time. Hypocrite.
Who are those jewish guys anyway?
Oh, I forgot. Sorry. They are the chosen ones.
By God. Yeah right. That shows you that God
is as deluded as his followers.
Chosen murderers.
Ignorance begins and bilateral understanding ends where communication and diplomacy are shut off. Don’t caracterize strangers as evil until you understand their logic. No man on earth grows up with a need to be evil. Everyone wants to be a good human, but only few of them are succesful. Everyone generalizingly defines a group of people evil is a fool, an idiot, not bright and wise. Definately not president material, lol.
December 4th, 2006 at 5:26 amI happen to agree with Lieberman, I don’t think Iran and Syria have any interest in solving the Iraq issue so that there is a strong democracy running the country. They have an interest in solving the Iraq issue so that there is a sympathetic Iraqi government that will do what they want.
Is it worth it to us to talk to them? Sure.
Is it worth it to enlist their help? I don’t think their idea of “help” will be anything we want to associate with, never mind the question on whether we should get out or not.
I’d love to end the Iraq civil war with us as the good guys, but I just don’t see that happening now as long as we have military forces in the region. Ironically, we could probably do more politically at this stage if we didn’t have that military presence.
December 4th, 2006 at 8:27 amYou are right. Poor jewish people. It must be tiresome to kill palestinians all day.
Comment by Juan C — December 4, 2006 @ 2:38 am
Wow Juan, you and Ren both go to the Michael Richards/Mel Gibson school for compassion? Oh Wait they are Hollywood types and didn’t do anything wrong.
December 4th, 2006 at 8:59 am#114 I suppose Armin, if the Romanians had suffered in the same maniacal fashion as the Jews I would support their return to Mongolia…
Comment by mighty aphrodite — December 4, 2006 @ 10:47 am
You’re a willfully ignorant idiot man. In the WWII died a very high number of romanians and specially romanian gipsies in the same concentration camps than the jews. Along with communists, freethinkers, freedom fighters.
December 4th, 2006 at 11:49 amHaving a country ran by Mullahs is like :
December 4th, 2006 at 12:59 pmleaving a library to illiterate to manage
rezarator
A quick semantic refresher: hating someone simply because they’re Jewish is being anti-Semitic; hating someone who happens to be Jewish is not anti-Semitic. You cheapen the term by throwing it around indiscriminantly.
There is no shortage of responsibility on either side for the problems that exist between the Palestinians and the Israelis. Too many people living outside of Israel see the situation in black and white, while those living in Israel tend to see it in many shades of grey.
Does the Israeli government put US interests ahead of their own when they decide policy? Of course not. So why should US politicians like Joe put Israeli interests ahead of US interests? And why should we not call him on it?
Sometimes it seems like we should require that anyone who wants to be a federal politician has to have either 1) served in combat, 2) worked on a farm, or 3) given birth. They seem be among the best indicators of someone with common sense. Feel free to provide your own criteria. For the record, my criteria rule me out, (wrongly of course!)
December 4th, 2006 at 1:09 pmWow Juan, you and Ren both go to the Michael Richards/Mel Gibson school for compassion? Oh Wait they are Hollywood types and didn’t do anything wrong.
Comment by Tundra
Sorry, didnt get the joke.
December 4th, 2006 at 1:21 pmBut I am as shocked as you are, who would have thought that David would become Golliath?
Hagel v. Lieberman…
On CBS’s Face the Nation yesterday:
– Lieberman: “I believe that America is a mighty enough nation that we should never fear to talk to anyone. But anyone who believes that Iran and Syria really want to help us to succeed in Iraq, ……
December 4th, 2006 at 1:39 pmReading the anti-Semitic tripe of “half-wit triangleâ€
Comment by mighty aphrodite — December 3, 2006 @ 11:37 pm
But you were perfectly fine with Christopher Columbus being antisemitic… You even called him a ‘hero’.
You are a joke.
December 4th, 2006 at 5:36 pmHappy Whatever you celebrate….
Comment by mighty aphrodite — December 4, 2006 @ 10:47 am
I’ll celebrate if a house from Kansas falls on you…
Otherwise, not everyone needs to celebrate their delusional belief in fairytales. Silly boy.
December 4th, 2006 at 5:38 pmWell, speaking as an observer from outside America, the way I look at it is that nothing Iran or Syria has done comes close to the shit that you’ve inflicted on your own.
Abu Ghraib? Fallujah? Executing wounded prisoners in Mosques? Torturing Iraqi’s for fun? Massacring villages? Raping a child, killing her family and then setting fire to their house? 650,000 dead? A failed reconstruction? Bremer marching around in silk suits and army boots reciting old Hitler speeches about Triumph of Will.
The reality check is that you bastards have dug your own grave in Iraq. Wmd’s? Turned out to be lies. Al Quaeda? More lies. Democracy…. well, you talked a good game, but fought it tooth and nail, so that was a lie too.
So what’s the real reason America went into Iraq? The Iraqi’s don’t care. They just want you dead, and they want you to get the hell out of their country, and then they never want to see your sorry asses again.
Used to be that America was something good and noble and respected.
Now you’re just the assholes of the world.
December 4th, 2006 at 6:53 pmYou know, if Iraq wasn’t so tragic for the Iraqi’s, it would actually be funny.
December 4th, 2006 at 6:58 pmFinally a democrat willing to do what is best for America no wonder he won by a landslide.
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April 1st, 2008 at 2:20 pm[…] Put Out Fire” Posted on 12/4/2006 2:47 PM by brianrApprove (6) | Reject (0) | My vote: None Think Progress… Today on CBS Face the Nation, Sen. Joe Lieberman (I-CT) argued that direct talks with Syria and […]
April 2nd, 2008 at 12:55 pm[…] Self Interest Posted on 12/4/2006 2:50 PM by brianrApprove (6) | Reject (0) | My vote: None Think Progress… Senator Hagel responding to the question of whether or not the U.S. should talk to Iran or […]
April 2nd, 2008 at 12:55 pm[…] Case For Talks Posted on 4/4/2007 2:47 PM by brianrApprove (6) | Reject (0) | My vote: None Think Progress Here’s Senator Hagel responding to the question of whether or not the U.S. should talk to Iran and […]
April 2nd, 2008 at 12:57 pm[…] The Extremists” Posted on 4/4/2007 3:22 PM by brianrApprove (6) | Reject (0) | My vote: None Think Progress Today on CBS Face the Nation, Sen. Joe Lieberman (I-CT) argued that direct talks with Syria and […]
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