Jose Padilla, a U.S. citizen,
has been detained for four years without formal charges, much of it in solitary confinement. He is now a broken human being:
Saying that there was ’sufficient cause” to conduct a competency hearing, the government, in papers filed yesterday, urged the judge to do so.
The government itself cited the affidavit of a psychiatrist for the defense, Dr. Angela Hegarty, who said that Mr. Padilla did not understand the nature and consequences of the proceedings against him and that he suffered “impairment in reasoning” as a result of post-traumatic stress disorder “complicated by the effects of prolonged isolation.”
Mr. Padilla’s lawyers said he opposed this request that his competency be evaluated. Dr. Hegarty, one of two mental health professionals who examined him, said Mr. Padilla was “fearful of being thought of as crazy.” She described him as “hypervigilant,” his eyes darting about, his face twitching into grimaces, his “startle response” on constant high alert.
The original accusations against him — “about the dirty bomb, Al Qaeda connections and supposed plans to set off natural gas explosions in apartment buildings — appear nowhere in the indictment against him.”
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I don’t have words for how sick this makes me. Hiel Bush!
December 14th, 2006 at 10:31 pmI agree Joefriday. It is just outrageous and evil.
We are witnessing some very very bad stuff….and because we’re “in it” the true horror of it is not as apparent as it will be later for some. It’s sort of like when you are having an accident things are in slow motion and there is really no emotion just this awareness…..it’s afterwards that the shaking and the fear sets it….as in…”do you realize I almost died!!!????”
This is like that. Later people will scream…”they did WHAT???!!!!” The Padilla thing is so so awful and tragic it isn’t sinking in. For me it is…but not for a lot of people. But history will record this. This is as bad as any Nazi doctor “experiment.” This country has lost it I’m afraid. We’ve lost our way.
December 14th, 2006 at 10:40 pmOh my god.
We have deprived a US citizen of his civil right for four years, tortured him, and driven him virtually insane FOR NOTHING.
This is beyond sick.
December 14th, 2006 at 10:41 pmRemember, folks, this could just as easily be you or me.
December 14th, 2006 at 10:44 pmIn Bush’s Amerika, no one is safe.
I agree. Our country is, I’m afraid, beyond very sick Zooey. Until shame sets in, we are no where near healing this thing. Iraq did not happen in a vacuum.
December 14th, 2006 at 10:47 pmAnywhere Bush’s name appears in a history book, the bolded text should not be far behind.
December 14th, 2006 at 10:49 pmWow…Some Padilla’s defense attorneys are trying to claim the government abused their client and that he is not competent to stand trial….Gosh, I’ve never ever seen defense attorneys argue anything like that before….Really surprising.
December 14th, 2006 at 10:51 pm‘Sick’ doesn’t begin to cover it.
Here’s Article 1 of the Reichstag Fire Decree, which ceded near-dictatorial power to Adolf Hitler in 1933:
Sound familiar?
December 14th, 2006 at 10:54 pmExley, note that the government (the prosecution) is citing the testimony of the affidavit of the psychiatrist for the defense.
December 14th, 2006 at 10:57 pmAbout time a habeas corpus related item showed up on this blog, TP. Long overdue. It’s taken four years for Jose Padilla to make it to the blogosphere. With the Military Commissions Act in place, otherwise known as the Act of Enablement, Two Pint Caligula can inflict any person in the world with what has been done to Jose Padilla. Any US citizen, anywhere, anytime. He just speaks the words….
Where have the media been? Who has stood up for this ancient law that this man was denied?
First they came for the communists….
December 14th, 2006 at 11:00 pmThat’s absolutely it Trip. Reichstag Fire Degree and then the Act of Enablement right after…
December 14th, 2006 at 11:01 pmRemember, folks, this could just as easily be you or me.
In Bush’s Amerika, no one is safe.
Comment by TripMaster Monkey — December 14, 2006 @ 10:44 pm
Can Exley go first? To prove this point?
December 14th, 2006 at 11:02 pmWow….just when I think you can’t get any more reprehensible, Exley, you lower the bar yet again.
This man…this American citizen…was thrown into a hole and held without due process for four years. This is the government you’re defending, Exley…a government who can terrorize its citizens without cause and with no fear of recrimination.
This government doesn’t need your defense, Exley, but you might need defense from this government. Don’t think your toadying ways will save you…all it will do is delay the inevitable.
December 14th, 2006 at 11:02 pmAdmin, If you read the article you see that the government is calling for a pre-trial competency hearing so as to have the judge resolve the issue of Padilla’s competency before the trial, thus precluding the defense from litigating that issue during the trial.
December 14th, 2006 at 11:03 pmFirst they came for the communists….
Comment by TerrytheTurtle — December 14, 2006 @ 11:00 pm
Exactly!
December 14th, 2006 at 11:03 pmAnd then, we look at other countries and criticize their governments.
December 14th, 2006 at 11:04 pmIf this country, which is supposed to be a leader transgress their basic laws, what can we expect of China or Venezuela?
When I was in high school and read about WWII- I kept asking Myself, how did the German people let it happen?(Don’t anyone jump on me I am 25% German- My mothers father was and I have traveled there many times and have many friends there). Damn I hate having to be PC. Back to Padilla, there will be no large outrage about this-He was different than “us”. Now living under Bushco I know. A complete idiot is in charge of our country and somewhere between 30% and 38% think he is doing a great job.
Who were the “brave” americans that tortured this guy for 4 years? They are no different than the good Germans that did much worse.
George Bush going down with the worst world leaders in history. Never thought America would have one in that evil group.
December 14th, 2006 at 11:05 pmAll they (Bushco) had to do was to find some poor loser with a record and create a profile to make an example of. And the winner of the unluckiest loser in the world was Jose Padilla. This is not supposed to happen in this country. I don’t care what your political leanings are, not in this country!
The neocons tried to use Jose Padilla to create an image of evil to propagate fear and loathing in the American populace so as to facilitate the ease of our manipulation. But Americans are smarter than the neocons ever give them credit for. It isn’t the image we are supposed to fear, it’s the creators of the image.
December 14th, 2006 at 11:07 pmSome Padilla’s defense attorneys are trying to claim the government abused their client and that he is not competent to stand trial
Comment by Exley — December 14, 2006 @ 10:51 pm
Maybe he is, maybe he isn’t. That is not the point.
The point is that the government can put someone in prison, isolated for three years without bringing them to trial, by presidential fiat. All that needs to happen is for them to be labeled “enemy combatant’ -no evidence needed.
To be frank with you, I don’t even care for Padilla. He might even be guilty of all charges, I don’t care. But if the evidence used track him down, capture him, and detain him for three years is not good enough to convict him, then the entire incident is a complete mockery of the legal process.
Indefinite imprisonment in isolation, for a charge that was never brought to court, for what amounts to little more than an accusation based on hearsay, the secrecy in the entire process, is exactly what the authoritarian regimes around the world use against their populations to keep them in control. This is antithetical to democracy. I don’t care what political leanings you have, this is outrageous.
When the erosion of the law reaches this point, nobody is safe. Doing anything (anything at all) that arises the faintest of suspicions, can potentially land you in the same situation.
December 14th, 2006 at 11:09 pm#7 Exlax: Why don’t you shut up and go shit yourself a twin sister.
December 14th, 2006 at 11:09 pmBetter yet, why don’t you just go swallow a turd. You seem to swallow everything else the reicht wingers toss your way.
By the way, great news from the courts today regarding the War on Terror and the Military Commissions Act:
“A federal judge upheld the Bush administration’s new terrorism law Wednesday, agreeing that Guantanamo Bay detainees do not have the right to challenge their imprisonment in U.S. courts.
The ruling by U.S. District Judge James Robertson is the first to address the new Military Commissions Act and is a legal victory for the Bush administration at a time when it has been fending off criticism of the law from Democrats and libertarians.
Robertson rejected a legal challenge by Salim Ahmed Hamdan, a former driver for Osama bin Laden whose case prompted the Supreme Court to strike down the Bush administration’s policy on detainees last year.
Following Hamdan’s victory, Bush asked for and got a new law that established military commissions to try enemy combatants and stripped them of the right to seek their freedom in U.S. courts.
Hamdan’s case was sent back before Robertson, a nominee of President Clinton who was a prominent civil rights advocate in private practice.”
Associated Press
December 14th, 2006 at 11:11 pmHe was different than “usâ€.
That’s what Hartmann’s poem is all about. Padilla is a convicted felon, a gangsta with a rap sheet going a few pages. No one gives a shit, get him off the streets, right? But had he or had he not already paid for those crimes and so how does anyone have the gall to suspend the Constitution and the right to habeas corpus for him? Who’s next?
December 14th, 2006 at 11:11 pmFear of terrorists has almost crippled the citizens of this country. Hell, they should be afraid of the person taking their rights away.
December 14th, 2006 at 11:12 pmAdmin, If you read the article you see that the government is calling for a pre-trial competency hearing so as to have the judge resolve the issue of Padilla’s competency before the trial, thus precluding the defense from litigating that issue during the trial.
Comment by Exley
Duh. Pre-trial hearing SOP. The prosecution does not want to try this case and is citing the defense psych report.
December 14th, 2006 at 11:13 pmThis is just the test case. If they are able to pull it of with Padilla, expect a full roll-out of the patriotically-named, Fox-backed program.
December 14th, 2006 at 11:14 pmWow…Some Padilla’s defense attorneys are trying to claim the government abused their client and that he is not competent to stand trial….Gosh, I’ve never ever seen defense attorneys argue anything like that before….Really surprising.
Comment by Exley — December 14, 2006 @ 10:51 pm
Exley-I think you would gladly jump into the graves of the innocent-scum like you don’t come around too often. Also, I think your right the German government never abused anyones rights. The defense attorneys were just crying wolf. No government abuses anyones rights,ja-ya.si- I would like mein opiate mit ice.
December 14th, 2006 at 11:15 pmDear 30%:
Take your hair out of your bun. Tak off your glasses. The ones that make shit rosey. There’s a HUMAN population next to you. Try them. You might like them….
December 14th, 2006 at 11:18 pm#21 - Exley,
What the f*ck is wrong with you?
Here I resurrect and paraphrase something from Briseadh na Faire:
May all those who support the Military Commissions Act be subjected to its provisions.
December 14th, 2006 at 11:18 pmGregor, This idea that Padilla has been held all this time without access to the courts is a myth. His case has been heard by several courts, including the U.S. Supreme Court. He has been represented by counsel. His case has been heard by trial courts, intermediate appellate courts, and, as I mentioned, the U.S. Supreme Court. His due process rights have been protected and exercised.
December 14th, 2006 at 11:19 pmThe fact that they kept Padilla, a United States citizen, without due process is abuse.
If he is guilty, fine, they should have put him on trial immediately. Now because they did this to him, the federal government has screwed up their case against him and will likely lose. Good job. Following the law on both sides matters, and if the government breaks that law, then they screwed up the case and a criminal walks free because of the of the governments own lawlessness.
December 14th, 2006 at 11:19 pmZooey, A Clinton-appointed federal judge disagrees with you.
December 14th, 2006 at 11:23 pmHis case has been heard by several courts, including the U.S. Supreme Court.
Comment by Exley — December 14, 2006 @ 11:19 pm
What has been challenged is his indefinite detention without as much as a hearing. His actual case -you know, the one that stems from the charges against him- has not been presented to any judge.
Due process would have been for him to be indicted (for at least some of the charges); which is something that finally happened now, three years after his arrest, and detention in isolation.
December 14th, 2006 at 11:27 pmA Clinton-appointed federal judge disagrees with you.
Comment by Exley
Oh well, maybe I should start backpedalling now, since Clinton appointed the judge, Exley.
No. Sorry. Only people like you who have committed intellectual suicide in the name of your ideology would let something like this slide simply because a president you liked happened to appoint the judge.
That judge is wrong — I don’t give a shit who appointed him.
December 14th, 2006 at 11:28 pmHis case has been heard by several courts, including the U.S. Supreme Court. He has been represented by counsel. His case has been heard by trial courts, intermediate appellate courts, and, as I mentioned, the U.S. Supreme Court. His due process rights have been protected and exercised.
Comment by Exley — December 14, 2006 @ 11:19 pm
Damn, I was wrong. Padilla is one lucky sumbitch. However, Exley just what is that sumbitch guilty of? Four years in custody living the good life at tax payers expense ( much better than most brown skins can expect). Now down here in Texas we would of strung that mother f**er up a long time ago. O.k-Exley I forgot again -what did that MoFo do?
P.S I really like your crisp starched brown shirt and the black shinny boots turn on Condi.
December 14th, 2006 at 11:35 pmExley sez:
Another lie. A glib lie, to be sure, but a lie nonetheless.
In the interest of clarity, here’s the Jose Padilla timeline, courtesy of Wikipedia:
As can be clearly seen here, all that has been addressed in the courts is the government’s ability to hold him indefinitely without a trial. The courts have yet to address the actual charges, for which he was allegedly incarcerated in the first place.
December 14th, 2006 at 11:36 pmZooey, It appears the judge was able to look past ideology and political leanings and actually decided the case based on the law and the Constitution, as a judge should.
December 14th, 2006 at 11:37 pm#7 Thanks, Exley, for proving that you are unAmerican. Not that I didn’t already know it but thanks all the same.
December 14th, 2006 at 11:38 pmIf they’re willing to do this to ONE citizen in front of cameras how many do you think they’re will to do this to behind closed doors?
I hate to admit it but I would NOT be shocked if someone found secret “camps” were thousands of Muslims were “brought to jesus” by this administration.
This is sick, It breaks my heart
December 14th, 2006 at 11:39 pmJPark, I find it amusing that you are taking the self-serving affidavits and statements from Padilla’s defense team at face value and without question.
December 14th, 2006 at 11:44 pmZooey, It appears the judge was able to look past ideology and political leanings and actually decided the case based on the law and the Constitution, as a judge should.
Comment by Exley
How convenient that the laws and constitution have been changed almost beyond recognition so that you would be able to make such an asinine statement.
December 14th, 2006 at 11:45 pmAmendment VI
In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.
At least Padilla got counsel, the rest of the paragraph has pretty much been ignored.
December 14th, 2006 at 11:45 pmZooey, It appears the judge was able to look past ideology and political leanings and actually decided the case based on the law and the Constitution, as a judge should.
Comment by Exley — December 14, 2006 @ 11:37 pm
Exley-Damn simple question-What is Padilla guilty of? He has been held for close to four years.
You don’t have the balls to respond do a direct question do you? I have asked at least three- how about-How does it feel to be a piece of $hit?
December 14th, 2006 at 11:47 pmIf they’re willing to do this to ONE citizen in front of cameras how many do you think they’re will to do this to behind closed doors?
…
This is sick, It breaks my heart
Comment by YouCantHandleDaTruth
You’re right. This is the shit they let us see. What are they doing behind closed doors?
December 14th, 2006 at 11:49 pm#41 Sooo, Exley, you can look at the prosecution and say, well, damn, there was nothing self-serving in the governments case? Say it, Exley.
December 14th, 2006 at 11:49 pmI find it amusing that you are taking the self-serving affidavits and statements from Padilla’s defense team at face value and without question.
Comment by Exley — December 14, 2006 @ 11:44 pm
And I find it deeply disturbing that you take the Bush administration’s self-serving allegations at face value, and without question.
So, is this your version of “due process”: The government can hold you without a trial, so you have to fight to get one first, to then finally fight the charges against you? Is that “due process” in your corner of the world?
December 14th, 2006 at 11:51 pmExley sez:
I find it equally amusing that you are taking the self-serving accusations and hyperbole of the government at face value and without question.
Wait…no…”amusing” isn’t quite right…”sickening” is a bit closer…
The point is, neither should be taken at ‘face value’…that’s what ‘trials’ are for, which is precisely what Padilla has been denied for almost four years.
December 14th, 2006 at 11:52 pmJPark,
All the government had to do was change the laws and the constitution to make their case — and they still haven’t filed any of the terror charges.
December 14th, 2006 at 11:55 pmJPark, I am not the one who is taking the prosecution’s statements and citing them as gospel. Each side makes their arguments and the matter is ultimately decided by a neutral arbiter. I am simply pointing out that it is quite common for defense attorneys in criminal cases to argue that the government (usually, the police) has mistreated their client.
December 14th, 2006 at 11:57 pm#52 I am not either. I am, however, extremely suspicious of the charges. Aren’t you Exley? Considering the guy was a nothing?
December 15th, 2006 at 12:01 am#51 Don’t you just love when Bush wipes his ass with the Constitution?
December 15th, 2006 at 12:02 amExley, Christ, what do you have against the Constitution and the idea of a fair trial? Padilla was a damned loser with about 3 brain cells to rub together. You righties sure are afraid of him though.
December 15th, 2006 at 12:03 amMilitary Commissions Act = Bill of Attainder
December 15th, 2006 at 12:04 am#52 - Who’s backpedalling now?
December 15th, 2006 at 12:06 amDon’t you just love when Bush wipes his ass with the Constitution?
Comment by JPark
I know you’re being funny, but this shit pisses me off. Bush needs to be on trial for what he’s done to this country — and Jose Padilla.
December 15th, 2006 at 12:07 amThis email was originally written for my friend, Jim. So here we go.
Jim, here’s an article that has me boiling over. It’s not a pretty picture nor will my final comments about it. The title of this article is my own.
Crimes Against Humanity
By the American Progress Action Fund
December 5, 2006
HUMAN RIGHTS — AFTER FOUR YEARS OF U.S. DETENTION, PADILLA MAY BE TOO UNFIT FOR CONVICTION: Jose Padilla, a U.S. citizen, has been detained for four years without formal charges, much of it in solitary confinement, and is now showing signs of psychological trauma, his lawyers say. The original accusations against him — “about the dirty bomb, Al Qaeda connections and supposed plans to set off natural gas explosions in apartment buildings – appear nowhere in the indictment against him.†They were “fabrications or delusions or fantasies,†Time magazine’s Andrew Sullivan writes. Now, after several years of solitary detention and reported aggressive interrogation tactics, Padilla has “turned into a mental patient,†potentially making conviction against him on any grounds impossible. During questioning, his lawyers say, “he often exhibits facial tics, unusual eye movements and contortions of his body.†Sullivan writes, “Padilla, by all accounts, was a completely non-violent and docile prisoner every day of his incarceration. And yet they put him in body-manacles for four years, complete isolation and darkness, and even fitted him with night-goggles for a dental operation.” Last year, Time magazine reported on similar circumstances experienced by another Bush administration detainee victim, Mohammed al-Qahtani: “At the end of months of sleep deprivation and other forms of torture, Qahtani, according to an FBI letter, ‘was evidencing behavior consistent with extreme psychological trauma’ (talking to non existent people, reporting hearing voices, crouching in a cell covered with a sheet for hours on end).â€
Now for the ugly comments: I know there are those who relished with delight of a Latino or a Mexican-American writhing in misery. Let them; they’ll get their rewards soon enough. But for George Bush I’m more than eager for him to get his—NOW. This “God Fearing†S.O.B. deserves to be tack against a wall for what he did to Jose Padilla. I’ll demand an oversight or investigation from Congress on this matter. I’ll be hanged if I let that m-r f-r get off with that smirk of his intact. It isn’t just the violation of Padilla’s civil rights but a crime against humanity, committed in “godly” America. In conclusion l make no apology for the language I use. Armando
PS to Think Progress: As you noticed I had to clean up some of the language for this blogg, originally written for my friend.
December 15th, 2006 at 12:09 amGregor, The authority of the president to declare people “enemy combatants” is well-established in the United States. For example, the US Supreme Court ruled that FDR had the authority to declare an American citizen an enemy combatant. So, Padilla’s status is not unique in U.S. history. And, he has had numerous opportunities in the courts (trial, appellate, Supreme Court) to challenge that status and the government’s right to hold him. Now, he will also have th ability to have his case heard by a jury.
December 15th, 2006 at 12:10 am#54 He couldn’t reach Exley at the time.
December 15th, 2006 at 12:11 amJPark sez:
JPark, Padilla himself matters not at all. What this is about is showing the citizens of this country that their inalienable rights can be nullified at the whim of our government.
To quote Buffalo Springfield:
December 15th, 2006 at 12:11 amMilitary Commissions Act = Bill of Attainder
Comment by TerrytheTurtle
Exactly — Tainted.
December 15th, 2006 at 12:11 amHonestly, Padilla is a lowlife. But he doesn’t deserve to get the death penalty to make that c*nt Bush look good.
December 15th, 2006 at 12:11 amEach side makes their arguments and the matter is ultimately decided by a neutral arbiter.
Comment by Exley — December 14, 2006 @ 11:57 pm
And in Padilla’s case, when has that happened?
When has a neutral arbiter heard the government’s accusations against Padilla?
I am simply pointing out that it is quite common for defense attorneys in criminal cases to argue that the government has mistreated their client.
I usually think those attorneys are a sleazy lot. In this case, however, holding Padilla in confinement for 3+ years without a trial, is pretty close to mistreatment in my opinion.
If there is solid evidence against Padilla, let’s hear it. Let’s try the man and find him guilty or not in a court of law. That is due process, isn’t it? Exley?
December 15th, 2006 at 12:12 am“Backpedaling,” Zooey? No, not at all. If you read my initial posting again, you will see that I have been quite consistent.
December 15th, 2006 at 12:12 am#61 What the f*ck are you talking about, Exley??? The authority of the president to declare people “enemy combatants”??? I really didn’t think you were that stupid. I was wrong.
December 15th, 2006 at 12:13 amI am simply pointing out that it is quite common for defense attorneys in criminal cases to argue that the government (usually, the police) has mistreated their client.
Comment by Exley — December 14, 2006 @ 11:57 pm
Exley -Why don’t you point out what the prosecution commonly argues in criminal cases? Why don’t you tell us what Padilla is guilty of.
P.S-Still think your scum-enjoy the high road.
December 15th, 2006 at 12:14 am#66 Gregor, ‘I usually think those attorneys are a sleazy lot.’
I understand what you are saying. But, sometimes it is true and the police have exceeded their bounds and coerced a confession or mistreated a prisoner.
If there is solid evidence against Padilla, let’s hear it. Let’s try the man and find him guilty or not in a court of law.
Agreed. And that is now going to happen (Unless the court does indeed find he is not competent to stand trial).
December 15th, 2006 at 12:20 am#72 Exley, you really believe Padilla is sane? The guy would compete with Bush for being bat-shit insane.
December 15th, 2006 at 12:22 am#74 Not really B. I think he believes whatever Rush tells him. I always have hope for those trolls who occasionally show a flash of mediocrity, though.
December 15th, 2006 at 12:29 amExley,
The only thing consistent about you is your assholierthanthou attitude.
Grow a spine, stop wetting your bed, and stand up for what’s right!
Forget about the law, lawyers, the constitution, and the courts for a moment. Do you actually think that what WE have done to Jose Padilla was the right thing to do?
December 15th, 2006 at 12:29 am#69, JPark, your confusion…well…confuses me. What point are you trying to make?
As for your question in #72, I have no idea if Padilla is sane or not. And neither do you. That is what the pre-trial hearing will determine.
December 15th, 2006 at 12:31 am#69, JPark, your confusion…well…confuses me. What point are you trying to make?
As for your question in #72, I have no idea if Padilla is sane or not. And neither do you. That is what the pre-trial hearing will determine.
December 15th, 2006 at 12:31 am[…]the US Supreme Court ruled that FDR had the authority to declare an American citizen an enemy combatant.
Comment by Exley — December 15, 2006 @ 12:10 am
I don’t believe this authority had ever been used before. If you have a link, I would really like to see it.
Plus, this still doesn’t make it right. FDR could have been wrong too, you know.
So, Padilla’s status is not unique in U.S. history.
What is unique is the indefinite nature of the detention. See, during Roosevelt’s presidency, WWII was seen as a finite engagement; one which would eventually come to an end. At that point, those detained would finally see their day in court.
Contrast that situation with Bush’s “war on terror”: It is a completely open-ended conflict. There is no end in sight. There are no benchmarks to know where we stand. Being labeled “enemy combatant” might very well be a life sentence for a detained person.
And that is now going to happen (Unless the court does indeed find he is not competent to stand trial).
Comment by Exley — December 15, 2006 @ 12:20 am
I don’t know if I am supposed to be relieved by it. I still think it is a absolute travesty that someone can be held without any recourse, because the president said so. It sends chills down my spine.
When the protection of the law is taken away from some of us, it really is taken away from all of us.
Doesn’t this situation bother you in the least bit?
December 15th, 2006 at 12:34 amAgreed. And that is now going to happen (Unless the court does indeed find he is not competent to stand trial).
Comment by Exley
FOUR YEARS. IMPRISONMENT WITHOUT CHARGE. CIVIL RIGHTS DENIED. TORTURE. PTSD. POSSIBLE INSANITY.
F*ck this shit.
Exley you should be ashamed of yourself, but like GWB something important inside you is missing.
I’m done.
December 15th, 2006 at 12:34 am#78 You are absolutely right, Exley. Want to go back to your point that the president has ALWAYS had the right to ID enemy combatants? I would love to debate that. By the way, that term is brand, f*cking new so I hope you call it something else.
December 15th, 2006 at 12:35 amOh, and Exley. You are all for driving a guy insane and then convicting them? Wait, never mind. I have seen you post enough to answer that myself.
December 15th, 2006 at 12:36 am“Do you actually think that what WE have done to Jose Padilla was the right thing to do?”
Zooey, your question presupposes that what the defense attorney now allege is true. As I have pointed out, we have no idea, at this point in time, whether it is true or not.
If you are asking of we were right to declare a member of Al Qaeda an enemy combatant, my answer is “absolutely.” As I pointed out, the president’s authority to hold people — including U.S. citizens — as “enemy combatants” is well-established.
December 15th, 2006 at 12:41 amCome on Exley. Suppose what the defense says is true. Do you figure he will get a fair trial? Do you think they will allow their interrogation techniques get out? It will all be state secret and you won’t know a damned thing. You are good with that?
December 15th, 2006 at 12:43 am#81, JPark, In Ex Parte Quirin (1942), the Supreme Court employed the term “unlawful combatants.”
December 15th, 2006 at 12:45 amIf you are asking of we were right to declare a member of Al Qaeda an enemy combatant, my answer is “absolutely.â€
Comment by Exley — December 15, 2006 @ 12:41 am
That is where the problem begins. We have no idea, at this point, if that allegation against Padilla is true or not. Do we? All we really have is the president’s word.
As I pointed out, the president’s authority to hold people — including U.S. citizens — as “enemy combatants†is well-established.
::sigh::
Fine. Do you want to hear you are right about this? Fine. You are right. It is well established.
Doesn’t it bother you that your neighbor could be held indefinitely on an allegation? Your brother? Sister?
You are happy to take the president’s word at face value?
Do you believe presidents don’t lie?
December 15th, 2006 at 12:48 amAnd it can happen to any one of us!
December 15th, 2006 at 12:49 amGregor sez:
Multiple posters have asked Exley that question.
His silence on this question is deafening.
December 15th, 2006 at 12:49 am…and yet they were still afforded Geneva Convention protections. You don’t think there has been a sea change? (By the way, I said enemy combatants and yes, apparently it does make a difference because they apparently have no protections).
December 15th, 2006 at 12:50 amNow YOU use the term enemy combatant. Which is it?
December 15th, 2006 at 12:51 am#85, JPark, If what the defense says is true and it is so proved, I’d imagine the charges would be dismissed and that there would be no trial. As for revealing interrogation techniques, if the government wants to keep them secret, the government could request an in camera hearing
December 15th, 2006 at 12:52 amExley, they haven’t requested in camera hearings before. They asked for dismissal due to national security.
December 15th, 2006 at 12:57 amBut that was only when they were the defendants so you just might be right!!! I thought that liberals were dangerously naive but you take the cake.
December 15th, 2006 at 12:57 amJPark, Unlawful combatants are enemy combatants, and enemy combatants can be unlawful combatants:
“Unlawful combatants are likewise subject to capture and detention, but in addition they are subject to trial and punishment by military tribunals for acts which render their belligerency unlawful. The spy who secretly and without uniform passes the military lines of a belligerent in time of war, seeking to gather military information and communicate it to the enemy, or an enemy combatant who without uniform comes secretly through the lines for the purpose of waging war by destruction of life or property, are familiar examples of belligerents who are generally deemed not to be entitled to the status of prisoners of war, but to be offenders against the law of war subject to trial and punishment by military tribunals.” Ex Parte Quirin
December 15th, 2006 at 12:58 amPadilla is the first we have been able to find out about…..Did you all know there are over 6,000 people being held in secret prisons all over the world and here under the same condition’s and in secret……Thank’s to these pieces of shit that are in control of our country….Yep! That’s why they did all these sneaky elimination’s of right’s….Some are prisoners of the bush war, some are U.S. citizen’s..Some may be guilty but untill all this crap is uncovered who know’s…..It’s said that more than half of the one’s that are accused as enemy combatent’s were merely farmers and workers in the wrong place at the wrong time….This and the war is some of the reasons’ I hang my head in shame for our country…We are now the most evil in the world and the rest of the world know’s it…Untill , and we must impeach and try all this administration for war crimes and crimes against huamety we can not redeme our selves and what use to be a great nation…..Blessings…Strength and rise up against the evil with in….Stand together for justice.
December 15th, 2006 at 1:08 am#87 Gregor, You ask, “Doesn’t it bother you that your neighbor could be held indefinitely on an allegation? Your brother? Sister?”
There is always the potential for abuse when government has the power to detain people…This goes from the local cop on the beat all the way to the President of the United States. But society cannot let such potential for abuse to paralyze society from acting to protect itself. Local police can make illegal arrests. Local prosecutors can abuse their discretion. And yes, presidents can lie. But that doesn’t mean we disband police departments or deny the police the authority to arrest people. The key is to remain vigilant and guard against such potential abuses. And in Padilla’s case, he has had access to the courts and counsel in order to ensure that Padilla’s due process rights are protected and that government has not abused its discretion.
December 15th, 2006 at 1:09 amWhat the United States Government has done to one citizen it can do to anyone.
Notice here the Government is arguing that if Mr. Padilla’s competence is in question, the Court shouldn’t look into charges of Government misconduct which might have led to Mr. Padilla’s condition.
Nice.
The Government can torture someone to the point of insanity, then say you can’t show misconduct, because the person accusing the Government of misconduct is insane.
Exley, care to volunteer for the same treatment Padilla received, then report back to us?
If not, then you have NO RIGHT to belittle his treatment, nor the claims of his attorneys.
In the meantime, may you be visited by that which you fear. May your fears continue to weigh upon you and prey upon you, until you learn to care for your fellow human beings.
December 15th, 2006 at 1:18 amBut society cannot let such potential for abuse to paralyze society from acting to protect itself.
Comment by Exley — December 15, 2006 @ 1:09 am
Abolishing the presidential power to declare anybody they want an “enemy combatant” will paralise society, and prevent it from protecting itself?
Am I reading you correctly?
But that doesn’t mean we disband police departments or deny the police the authority to arrest people.
You are going hyperbolic on me. We are talking about a very specific law, not entire police departments, let alone the entire judiciary or executive branches.
in Padilla’s case, he has had access to the courts and counsel in order to ensure that Padilla’s due process rights are protected and that government has not abused its discretion.
He only had access to courts to challenge his detention without a trial. That is not due process. He had no rights -other than try to regain his right to a fair trial in court.
I do not care how well established that bloody law is, and I couldn’t care less who in the bloody world signed it. It could have been signed by the Pope himself and his co-signers could have been St. Peter and the Virgin Mary. I don’t care.
It’s still wrong to hold someone indefinitely without a trial. That presidential power should be taken off the books. It opens the door to abuses we can only imagine at this point. Presidents are not infallible or immune to temptation.
December 15th, 2006 at 1:24 amGregor, Just to clarify, are you saying that all combatants — be they lawful or unlawful — should receive trials during wartime? If so, you are proposing something that no nation on earth does (as far as I know)….Or are you suggesting only unlawful combatants captured away from the battlefield be granted trials?
December 15th, 2006 at 1:35 amWe are not at war. The Congress has not declared war. Bush was given a limited Authorization to Use Military Force which he has misused and the cowardly Congress is rightly afraid of the bush criminal syndicate who has not hesitated to murdered Presidents, Congresspersons, Judges, Reporters who get in their way.
The destruction of Padilla’s mind through torture is a crime against humanity and a psyop psychological operation on the American people as is Guantanamo Bay to instill fear in the American people so they will not challenge the crimes against humanity of the bush criminal enterprise and defend their children from bush’s never ending wars requiring a draft, the destruction of Social Security and other pension plans that Americans paid into and the theft of our Treasury for Halliburton and other ush war profiteering cronies.
Bush/cheney must be removed from office and tried for war crimes and high treason against the people of the United States of America.
December 15th, 2006 at 2:00 amBy the way, in the case you cite, Ex Parte Quirin, the suspects landed on American soil in the middle of June, 1942. Charges were filed on July 2, 1942, some 2-3 weeks later. Padilla was picked up in May of 2002 and indicted in November of 2005, some THREE AND A HALF YEARS OF IMPRISONMENT WITHOUT CHARGES BEING FILED.
And these suspects were foreign nationals, whereas Padilla is a U.S. citizen.
And they were challenging the use of a military tribunal, whereas Padilla spent 3 1/2 years in prison waiting for charges to be filed.
Did you bother to Shepardize your case?
(and Judd, why did my earlier post on this disappear?)
December 15th, 2006 at 2:14 amPadilla was a sacrificial lamb. A case that this administration has used as a threat to all Americans who question its policies? Don’t like Bush? You might be an “unlawful combatant”. You can be locked up indefinitely, tortured, driven crazy…then have the government argue that you are npow incompetent to defend yourself. We managed to put a Shiek in prison who really did commit a crime…and he got due process.
The irony here is who defines terrorism. I find it rather ironic that this selected pResident is directly responsible for the deaths of 650,000 people, but Padilla, whoi has killed no one, is wasting away in isolation. It is the epitome of un-Americanism.
December 15th, 2006 at 2:16 amOr are you suggesting only unlawful combatants captured away from the battlefield be granted trials?
Comment by Exley — December 15, 2006 @ 1:35 am
Ah, and we finally get to the crux of the issue. Are we really at war? If so, is Padilla a prisoner of war?
I submit the “war on terror” is bogus. There is no such thing. Sure, there are terrorist groups that have, do, and will attack the US, but the government is no more at war against them than they are against the many religious hate groups still active in the US. Padilla should have been tried long ago as a criminal, if there was sufficient evidence -as the people from those hate groups have always been.
What is outrageous about the president’s ability to label “enemy combatant” anyone he wants, is that the law that allows him to do so is exceptional: It exempts the president from any oversight, and it places the person labeled so beyond any other law, whether the Geneva Conventions or the Constitution. It is an absolute exception to any legal process. It places the detainees in a limbo, indefinitely.
Because it has been abused, that law should at least be rewritten. Ideally, removed from the books.
December 15th, 2006 at 2:18 amGregor,
December 15th, 2006 at 2:22 amYo TerrytheTurtle & unbelievable.
I believe it is:
December 15th, 2006 at 2:25 amFirst they came for the Jews….
REMEMBER THIS ONE BIGGER THAN 911 TO BLOW UP TRANSATLANTIC AIRLINES 10 OF THEM
Rashid Rauf - mastermind”. On the first page of results you will find CBS, the BBC, the Times, Guardian and Mail all describing Rauf last summer, on security service or police briefing, as the “Mastermind” behind the “Liquid terror bomb plot”. So the fact that a Pakistani court has found there is no evidence of terrorism against him cannot be lightly dismissed by the cheerleaders of the plot story.
A second and simultaneous development is even more compelling evidence that this massive scare was, as I said at the time, “More propaganda than plot”. Thames Valley police have given up after five months scouring the woods near High Wycombe where the bomb materials were allegedly hidden. They told the Home Office on 12 December that they would only continue if the government were prepared to meet the costs; they wished to get back to devoting their resources to real crimes, like armed robbery and burglary.
Remember this was a plot described by the authorities as “Mass murder on an unimaginable scale” and “Bigger than 9/11″. There have been instances in the UK of hundreds of police officers deployed for years to find an individual murderer. If the police really believed they were dealing with an effort at “Mass murder on an unimaginable scale”, would they be calling off the search after five months? No.
Which brings us to the lies that have been told - one of which concerns this search. An anonymous police source tipped off the media early on that they had discovered a “Suitcase” containing “bomb-making materials”. This has recently been described to me by a security service source as “A lot of rubbish from someone’s garage dumped in the woods”. You could indeed cannibalise bits of old wire, clocks and car parts to form part of a bomb - perhaps you could enclose it in the old suitcase. But have they found stuff that is exclusively concerned with causing explosions, like detonators, explosives or those famous liquid chemicals? No, they haven’t found any.
The other “evidence” that the police announced they had found consisted of wills (with the implication they were made by suicide bombers) and a map of Afghanistan. It turns out that the wills were made in the early 90s by volunteers going off to fight the Serbs in Bosnia - they had been left with the now deceased uncle of one of those arrested. The map of Afghanistan had been copied out by an eleven year old boy. All of which is well known to the UK media,
WE ARE BEING FED COMPLETE RUBBIS BY BLAIR AND BUSH
December 15th, 2006 at 6:19 amTobey sez:
Yes, Tobey, I remember it well. I remember that the day the news broke, I predicted that this latest scare was a lie, just as every single ‘terror’ alert since 9/11 has been. I remember that, not ten days later, I was proved correct, as it was revealed that the ‘terrorists’ did not even have explosives, that many of them didn’t even have passports, and that the alleged method of actually making the ‘liquid bomb’ (the synthesis of TATP) is patently impossible in even an airport restroom, let alone the bathroom on board the airplane.
We have been lied to systematically by this administration, and our blind acceptance of these lies has enabled these criminals to terrorize not only this country, but the entire world. Way back in post #17, Joefriday said:
That’s exactly the question future generations will be asking of US. What answer will we give?
December 15th, 2006 at 7:11 amREMEMBER THIS ONE BIGGER THAN 911 TO BLOW UP TRANSATLANTIC AIRLINES 10 OF THEM……….. LINK
December 15th, 2006 at 7:49 amwhat about the thousands that have dissapeared while in secret prisons - this will come out soon
December 15th, 2006 at 8:00 am“…#103
what about the thousands that have dissapeared while in secret prisons - this will come out soon
Comment by Tobey Tall — December 15, 2006 @ 8:00 am…”
I wouldn’t be shocked if they were burned and DNA from these people wasn’t found in some type of “come to jesus” camp set up by the Bush admin
December 15th, 2006 at 9:04 amIt’s just incomprehendible what our goverment has done to this man. This case should bring to light the consequences of loosing our rights. If they can drum up charges and confine you without explaination or access to a court, well we are really just as China. With one difference, China has all our manufacturing capacity and we have computers (?).
December 15th, 2006 at 9:08 amNow where does that put us all? Maybe worse off than the Chinese.
So, has the enemy beat us from within? It certainly looks as if OBL and China have done a job on us all. And when we wake up, well, too late.
Padilla has classic symptoms of PTSD. The hypervigilace and startle response say it all.
December 15th, 2006 at 9:18 amIf I were in solitary confinement for more than an hour I’d suicide. In any way possible.
That would suck immensely.
Which shows what sick bastards our damn government is. Die.
December 15th, 2006 at 9:26 amExley, I’d like to use you for a reference if you don’t mind. Every so often, somebody will wonder out loud how the German people could have let Adolf Hitler take over their country and murder millions of people, imprison millions more, and destroy much of Europe along with their own country. Or some American will talk about Nazi Germany and say “Well, that could never happen here.” I’d just like to gather up some of the wonderful statements you’ve made in this thread and forward them on to those people so they can have a better understanding of the mindset of a person who is ready and willing to forfeit the rights that Americans fought so hard to win and preserve over the past 230 years. I’d like them to see how average Americans can be duped into believing that the president should always be given the benefit of the doubt, that he should be granted all powers that he demands, and that, if he says someone is an enemy, by golly that person must be an enemy.
I wish you could be put into Padilla’s shoes. I wish there were some way you could experience exactly what he has been through so far. Then I’d like you to listen to imbeciles like yourself commenting on the situation. I want you to know what injustice and utter hopelessness feel like firsthand. And I want for you to be asking yourself how something like this could be happening to you in the United States of America, of all places. If I believed in God, I would pray for it to happen.
December 15th, 2006 at 12:01 pmBill, sorry but Thom Hartmann’s poem about creeping totalitarianism in Nazi Germany starts with ‘ First they came for the Communists….’ . The Jews show up a little later. The point being if no one speaks for Jose Padilla, whatever you think of him, when they come for you - there will be no one to speak for you…
December 15th, 2006 at 1:35 pmJohn Mack, Morgan Stanley CEO and US citizen, got a $40m bonus, for greedy practices. Jose Padilla, US citizen, goes mad from the treatment received from his “humane” country. Only in sinking-fast America does this madness occur.
December 15th, 2006 at 1:53 pmThis is my wish for Exley:
May you be visited by that which you fear. May your fears continue to weigh upon you and prey upon you, until you learn to care for your fellow human beings.
Comment by Briseadh na Faire — December 15, 2006 @ 1:18 am
Sometimes a curse is necessary for one to learn. I do not undertake such a wish lightly.
December 15th, 2006 at 3:05 pm[…] I don’t have anything else to add to this: Jose Padilla, a U.S. citizen, has been detained for four years without formal charges, much of it in solitary confinement. He is now a broken human being: Saying that there was ’sufficient cause†to conduct a competency hearing, the government, in papers filed yesterday, urged the judge to do so. […]
December 15th, 2006 at 6:35 pm#86 No, sorry. The semantics ARE important in law and you are wrong.
December 15th, 2006 at 9:41 pmIt reminds me of nothing so much as Winston Smith in 1984.
December 16th, 2006 at 9:17 am[…] “Padilla, a U.S. citizen, has been detained for four years without formal charges, much of it in solitary confinement. He is now a broken human being.” ⇒ Tags: bush administration , torture […]
December 18th, 2006 at 8:35 amI agree that it is disasterous that even one person should be held without fair trial and on top of that tortured. What I find really unbelievable is how the majority of these posts lean towards the fact that he is an American citizen!!! What difference does that make??? Our governements (Yes, well before it’s latest incarnation, all the way back to the Spanish war) have always done EXACTLY what they have done to Padilla to hundreds of thousands of people if not millions of people in underdevelopped South and Central America, also Asia and now the Middle East. They’ve done it directly through the Army and the CIA and indirectly through puppet regimes and para-military death squads.
I am very sad for Padilla, but I really find the level that people are shocked a little ridiculous… This is just the American Way brought home, nothing more.
December 18th, 2006 at 8:35 amJack
Thanks for your insightful Post. Keep Up the Great Work.
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