“If we surge and it doesn’t work,
By on Jan 3rd, 2007 at 4:40 pm
“If we surge and it doesn’t work,
it’s hard to imagine what we do after that.” — Frederick Kagan, the “intellectual architect” of the Iraq escalation.
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That’s a plan if I ever heard one.
“What we gotta do is see if more people die…”
I think it’s about time to storm The Bastille.
http://www.getsomejosh.com
January 3rd, 2007 at 4:44 pmDear Mr. Kagan:
Better start improving that imagination. The surge ain’t gonna work.
How about a preemptive withdrawal instead? Can you imagine that?
Or is it all just too hard?
Please shut up.
January 3rd, 2007 at 4:48 pm“If we surge and it doesn’t work, it’s hard to imagine what we do after that.†— Fredrick Kagan
Holy shit.
This cannot be allowed to happen.
January 3rd, 2007 at 4:49 pmSend in the EM50 Urban Assault vehicle along with Bill Murray and John Candy perhaps?
-GSD
January 3rd, 2007 at 4:54 pmSo, even the architect of “surge and purge” doesn’t believe in his own horse sh*t. That’s rich!
January 3rd, 2007 at 4:56 pmWhat “glass the place”?
January 3rd, 2007 at 4:57 pmBush: “We have to sacrifice our troops in Iraq to secure freedom. That’s what it will take, personal sacrifice of our young men and women. Not me though I sacrificed myself in the Air National Guard during Vietnam. Wooh, that was a great time….sacrificed a lot of beers then too. hehe.”
January 3rd, 2007 at 5:02 pm“If we surge and it doesn’t work,it’s hard to imagine what we do after that.â€
Well, I imagine leaving will come into play at some point.
January 3rd, 2007 at 5:02 pmIf we take your esteemed advice, professor Kagan, and it doesn’t work, perhaps you’d like to suck on a tailpipe of an SUV for a couple of hours.
January 3rd, 2007 at 5:02 pmJust keep sending more troops until it does work or we run out of troops. That will be the neocons plans.
January 3rd, 2007 at 5:03 pmThe only thing that matters is to somehow maintain all those permanent military bases we’ve built there to guard the oil. It’s the only real reason we went there and it’s the reason that they can never allow us to leave. Plan and simple…
when this “surge” (escalation) is completed there will only be another and another.
-B
January 3rd, 2007 at 5:14 pmThe only thing that matters is to somehow maintain all those permanent military bases we’ve built there to guard the oil. It’s the only real reason we went there and it’s the reason that they can never allow us to leave. Plan and simple…
when this “surge” (escalation) is completed there will only be another and another.
-B
January 3rd, 2007 at 5:14 pmIn Medieval times, architecture obviously lacked the structural engineering programs of today, so the method for building a tall (had to be tall to humble the masses)church was to simply build it. If it stood – great. If it fell, well, after they buried the dead – they just started over and used larger building materials the next time.
Sounds like the current approach of the Bush Regime ‘architects’ is still quite Medieval. Much like everything else…
January 3rd, 2007 at 5:17 pmWhat, no backup plan? I am shocked. SHOCKED.
January 3rd, 2007 at 5:18 pm“If we surge and it doesn’t work,it’s hard to imagine what we do after that.†— Fredrick Kagan, the “intellectual architect†of the Iraq escalation.
Aw heck…just hold another 6 weeks of consultations with everyone in the military and Congress. I’m sure somebody will be able to recommend something.
January 3rd, 2007 at 5:19 pmAnd the beat goes on…..
January 3rd, 2007 at 5:20 pmFredrick Kagan, the “intellectual architect” – sounds like Mr. Kagan is a few stories short of a skyscraper.
January 3rd, 2007 at 5:26 pmThese guys are making it up as they go. They have no plan or strategy, just a bunch of jokers sitting around saying, ” hey what if…?”
January 3rd, 2007 at 5:37 pmThis reminds me of a gambler who needs just one more wager, to try to win all his money back. pathetic.But… if Bush ( and Mc Cain) are thwarted in this escalation….you can bet they will try to Blame the Democrats and anti-war people for losing the war. The same argument has been used with the Viet Nam war for 30 years. “We woulda won, if the peaceniks hadn’t tied one hand behind our back. “I don’t think most American’s will buy it…not this time. But there are very few Republicans who will support this Surge . We could let them take the lead,and the hit. Maybe there is no stopping Bush and his delusions anyhow. Tragic that lives are on the line.
January 3rd, 2007 at 5:38 pmOf course it’s hard for you Kagan. Your group couldn’t imagine needing more than 130,000 troops to secure the country. You guys couldn’t imagine that the oil revenues wouldn’t be filling your pockets by now. You couldn’t imagine that the void created by taking out the head of their govt. would open a religious rift that’s been there since there were people there.
You have no imagination, you have no more options and soon your kind won’t have any power. This is the end of your rope. It’s long and braided with everyone of the mistakes, lies and backroom deals you and yours made to fool the country into attacking Iraq when it wasn’t needed.
This was a conflict of opportunity and it’s been proven to fail.
Imagine that.
January 3rd, 2007 at 5:45 pmSounds like Kagan is on the same page as McCain, who said (paraphrased)”It’s so hard for me to contemplate failure that I don’t know how to take the next step.”
January 3rd, 2007 at 5:45 pmThis sounds like paralasys, and paroxysms of fear.
Round up the Hueys, boys, it’s gonna come down to pickin’ em off the roofs in the Green Zone…………… shame you’re gonna hafta leave all that expensive hardware behind……
This reminds me of a gambler who needs just one more wager, to try to win all his money back. pathetic. Comment by Badger — January 3, 2007 @ 5:38 pm
Badger, hence the “Double Down” phraseology? These people are despicable!
January 3rd, 2007 at 5:47 pmIt’s “hard to know” for you Fred. Get out of the way and let the adults solve this one. What a manipulative statement. As if there is nothing else to do……………..—- you Fred and the cabal.
January 3rd, 2007 at 5:51 pmFred….this isn’t a trick question is it? I’ll have a go at it. More American Soldiers (AKA Surge) = More Dead American Soldiers. Then we jail you and impeach cheney / bush and we leave Iraq.
January 3rd, 2007 at 5:52 pm..but how would one know if its “working”, if we dont even have a well defined version of what ‘working” is?!?!
January 3rd, 2007 at 5:55 pmThe worst of this is that our Commander in Chief is, no doubt, thinking exactly the same thing.
On CNN tonight, there was a story about the Dems cutting war funding. Both Lehey and Obama said they (the Dems) didn’t have the appetite to do that. Dennis Kuchinich blasted them. There was also a press conference today that was interrupted by protests against the war, demanding that the funds be stopped in order to stop the war. Well…it stopped the press conference.
I have a feeling that it will take filling up the whole area between the Capital Building and the Washington Memorial, as happened several times prior to finally stopping the Vietnam war. And many marches. And constant phone calls and letters to our representatives in order to make this happen…stop the war; bring our troops home NOW!!! Fill up the public gallery in the House…OUR HOUSE!!!
January 3rd, 2007 at 5:57 pmThe great thing is that we’re Americans in America! Hey, we bombed the living crap out of them, and they’re living in a hobbesian jungle. But that’s their problem. Let’s pull our boys out and blame it on the Iraqis. Our Christian god will understand! Declare a failed Bush strategy to justify abandoning the whole enterprise. Yeah. That’s really, really a moral and just posture…
January 3rd, 2007 at 5:57 pmKagan, Kristol, Bolton, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz…..every last one of them a PNAC signatory (OK, it’s Robert Kagan…but they’re cut from the same cloth in every imaginable way)…
The bunkered Bushies are working their way down the list of PNAC signatories and they’ve almost hit ‘em all. Who’ll be next with a “new way” for Iraq, James frickin Woolsey?
http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm
January 3rd, 2007 at 6:02 pmUnfortunately, Moraity and Justice are back on that Moral High Ground we stepped off of, when we got involved in this sorry mess in the first place. Iraqi’s can do elections….let them vote on whether they want our HELP anymore. Let democracy decide!
January 3rd, 2007 at 6:08 pmI get it now. Each neocon/signer of the PNAC policy statement gets his/her turn being completely wrong at the cost of thousands of lives of US service people and hundreds of billions of dollars!
January 3rd, 2007 at 6:09 pmWhen at first you don’t succeed try, try again seemed to be a good old saw until the shrinks described the insane as expecting different results from repeated actions. The only feasible plan, which unfortunately is too late for bushco, is the modern day version of the above. When at first you don’t succeed, quit; don’t make a damn fool of yourself. The answer can be in a one paragraph set of orders to the Joint Chiefs: “Return all, repeat all, active duty troops, other support personnel, supplies, and equipment from Afghanistan and Iraq commencing immediately. Said return is to be accomplished as soon as possible, repeat as soon as possible, while providing all cover and support to the withdrawing troops. Collateral damage is to be held to a minimum but is not be a factor of consideration in completing the withdrawal. The required logistic support and air cover will be provided upon identification and request. Comments to the contrary are neither desired nor expected. Carry on.”
January 3rd, 2007 at 6:16 pmHow about that place “Midevil Times”. It was in the Cable Guy movie. How was that structure?
January 3rd, 2007 at 6:31 pmIf sending in Surge doesn’t work, then send in Oscar.
January 3rd, 2007 at 6:46 pmI’ve watched this ethnocentric fascist fanatic and so-called expert on C-Span and some of the cable propaganda shows.
He’s affliated with the Reich-wing American Enterprise Institute You can read his “Choosing Victory
A Plan for Success in Iraq” here: http://tinyurl.com/usjj4
How he got any crediblity is beyond me.
January 3rd, 2007 at 6:49 pmIn 2006 it is called a surge.
January 3rd, 2007 at 6:49 pm
I guess that you have to throw the “last” arrow. Or like a hardned drunk who is looking for a bottle in the sand.
January 3rd, 2007 at 7:20 pmIf the surge (escalation) doesn’t work, GDumbya will be adding a new word to his lexicon (or, as he calls it, his “list of words”) — “re-surge”.
In reality, GDumbya’s plan for “a new way forward” (aka — the next circle-jerk) in Iraq is a re-surge. There have already been two troop build-ups in Iraq in the past two years. Neither one of them had any productive effect on the level of violence. This proposed “re-surge” (further escalation) won’t either.
How do YOU spell Iraq? V-i-e-t-n-a-m
January 3rd, 2007 at 7:24 pmWell Fred, at that point (a) you’re S.o.L. (shit out of luck) and (b) even the likudnik Israelis and 24% rockhead Republicans will start giving up on you and your circle of lunatics. And (c), the next Republican “plan” will also involve killing even more people (yes, Iraqis happen to be people) without a realistic military or political rationale in Iraq. The point is purely, as every time before, to stave off the admission of failure and defeat Over Here.
January 3rd, 2007 at 7:43 pmIf surging does not work , send in the TP clowns .
Comment by pistol pete
And if that doesn’t work, send in all the sorry asses that support this debacle, like you.
January 3rd, 2007 at 7:56 pmWhat we do next is convene a War Crimes Tribunal — that’s what’s next.
January 3rd, 2007 at 8:24 pmIf surging does not work , send in the TP clowns .
Comment by pistol pete
Cmon Pete, you know as well as I do that you wish to see 2/3 of the Jewish people destoyed for your biblical prophecy. Kagan is Jewish, and yet you back what you wish to destroy. Your a twisted man Pete. Why do you put religion before humanity Pete?
January 3rd, 2007 at 8:38 pmKagan, Bush and every other reality-deficient neocon doesn’t care if the surge works or not.
It will last just as long as needed in order for the administration to to not lose face by withdrawing and accepting responsibility for the total mess it has made. I predict the ’surge’ will be given a life of about 2 years.
All this is is a way to procrastinate about backing out of iraq long enough… *just* long enough for Bush to finish his term and issue simply becomes the next preznit’s problem.
=my2c
January 3rd, 2007 at 9:28 pmBC
BC You are on to something there.
January 3rd, 2007 at 9:33 pmBTW,
Where the hell are the extra 30,000 ’surge’ troops coming from?
January 3rd, 2007 at 9:41 pmneocon pundit ranks?
BC
January 3rd, 2007 at 9:47 pmThe United States has over 200,000 troops stationed in 144 countries and territories. At any given time, it usually has another 20,000 sailors and Marines deployed afloat on Navy ships.
Bush already has the funds squirreled away for his troop surge. The 109th passed 2 funding bills for 07 before they closed up the session. He will need to get additional funds to sustain his surge though. People will have to start demanding that Congress DEFUND the Iraq part of the war. That is the only way to get Bubble Boy and Cheney to redeploy the troops… I question whether the Dems have the courage to play serious hard ball with this issue… The clock is ticking. Bush/Cheney will not reverse course on this issue. The troops will stay in Iraq until a new President is seated. Thats the Cheney decision.
January 3rd, 2007 at 10:56 pmWe will stay in Iraq until Bush is voted out or it is no longer in the interest of the Shiite (read Iranian supported) puppet government we installed. So far we have destroyed Iran’s mortal enemy for them while draining away our international support and our military life blood that we could have used to confront Iran. Why would Iran want us to leave up to this point? It has suited both Iran and Israel that Iraq be dismembered.
But Israel is now nervous. It sees that the main benefactor of these policies has not been itself or the United States, but Iran. It knows that it is only a matter of time before Iraq’s oil comes under the sway of the Iranian Shias.
It does not take a rocket scientist to see that Iraq will, in the end, be once again unified, but now with Iran and opposing both Israel and the U.S. – exactly the opposite of what was supposed to occur.
Neither the U.S. or Israel have ANY way to stop this from happening. In fact bombing Iran will probably only speed up that process. Why? Because the U.S. is pulling out of Iraq; it’s just a matter of which month now. That will leave a HUGE power vacuum. Who will fill that power vacuum? Both Israel and Georgie know the answer. It starts with “I” and ends with “ran.” They hate it but they can’t do crap about it. They created this outcome. They brought this on themselves. And you know what? It’s a good outcome for rational human beings. The Iranian Shiites are in a better position to reconstruct Iraq than any other people on the face of the Earth. And besides, it will keep them busy for a couple of decades.
Israel needs to get a life and focus on actually providing the liberties of a Western democracy to all of its people instead of simply claiming to do so while actually running a theocratic apartheid state with gestapo for a military and war criminals for prime ministers. Being anti-Zionist is not being anti-semitic, but those who need you to feel guilty for speaking up against genocide want you to think it is.
January 3rd, 2007 at 11:03 pmReality Check rocks.
January 4th, 2007 at 12:45 amUnbelievable, welcome back, you were missed (and fought over! check out those past threads!). Great Medieval metaphor, mind if I steal it?
Being anti-Zionist is not being anti-semitic, but those who need you to feel guilty for speaking up against genocide want you to think it is.
Comment by RealityCheck — January 3, 2007 @ 11:03 pm
Yep.
January 4th, 2007 at 1:44 am
After listening to Messiers Kagan and Kean on CSPAN today… All I could think was for such supposed intellectually able persons, they are both Ignorant and Arrogant.
Mr. Kagan wouldnt go near a battle ground unless it was historical or contained the only available Crispy Cream Doh-Nut shop and General Kean seems to be the epitemy of dilusional, old retired army General who’s out of touch with reality after spending his career in Washington.
Too bad for our country and our young military people…they have got to learn about human nature the hard way.
January 6th, 2007 at 5:08 amWhat’s the problem? Everything is working even better than anticipated. The Arabs are fighting themselves in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Palestine. Soon it will be Lebanon and Syria, and with a little luck…Iran. All amerika has to do now is make sure the combatants have lots of weapons and ammunition.
This plan has been in operation since at least the Iran/Iraq war…both sides aided by amerika in order to maintain stalemate, and maximum death and destruction of Arabs and their culture. This is genocide…period.
January 8th, 2007 at 1:15 pmWould YOU buy a Used Surge from this man?:
http://www.aei.org/scholars/filter.,scholarID.99/scholar.asp
January 12th, 2007 at 3:19 pm[...] “If we surge and it doesn’t work, it’s hard to imagine what we do after that.†— Frederick Kagan, the “intellectual architect†of the Iraq escalation.” [...]
March 15th, 2007 at 11:35 pm[...] “If we surge and it doesn’t work, it’s hard to imagine what we do after that.†— Frederick Kagan, the “intellectual architect†of the Iraq escalation.” [...]
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