Execution turns Saddam into martyr.
By on Jan 6th, 2007 at 12:49 am
Execution turns Saddam into martyr.
“In the week since Saddam Hussein was hanged in an execution steeped in sectarian overtones, his public image in the Arab world, formerly that of a convicted dictator, has undergone a resurgence of admiration and awe,” the New York Times reports. “On the streets, in newspapers and over the Internet, Mr. Hussein has emerged as a Sunni Arab hero who stood calm and composed as his Shiite executioners tormented and abused him.”
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Saddam Hussein, Martyr.
We better brace ourselves for the piss-soaked trolls.
January 6th, 2007 at 12:53 amAhhh, pissed-soaked trolls. Vile they smell. Like ammonia.
January 6th, 2007 at 12:59 amMark Fiore covered this best of all:
http://www.markfiore.com/animation/despot.html
January 6th, 2007 at 1:04 ampiss soaked trolls. I must be getting tired because that is the funniest thing I’ve read tonight
January 6th, 2007 at 1:05 amYeah Hellinabucket,
Zooey effin cracks me up too.
January 6th, 2007 at 1:09 amArmy asks dead to sign up for another hitch
POSTED: 9:39 p.m. EST, January 5, 2007
WASHINGTON (AP) — The Army said Friday it would apologize to the families of about 275 officers killed or wounded in action who were mistakenly sent letters urging them to return to active duty.
This is pretty phucking pathetic, sad, and illustrates how this agency must operate.
January 6th, 2007 at 1:12 amGood morning, my progressive friends. I just wanted to say that I think Saddam’s execution was justice. Am I alone here in thinking that?
January 6th, 2007 at 1:18 amThis is pretty phucking pathetic, sad, and illustrates how this agency must operate.
Comment by ForTruth
Clown college….?
January 6th, 2007 at 1:18 amPaul, do you think it was handled well?
January 6th, 2007 at 1:20 amNice one stoney. Must be smokin’ that organically grown kynd.
January 6th, 2007 at 1:22 amIs #7 Manga?
January 6th, 2007 at 1:25 amhellinabucket. nothing is perfect, but he was found, taken into custody, given a trial by Iraqis, sentenced to death and executed by Iraqis. I haven’t met anyone who didn’t think Saddam was guilty of the crimes. I also believe that if the crimes Saddam committed against the Iraqi people had been committed against us, we would be more understanding of the events of the day of his execution.
January 6th, 2007 at 1:38 amComment by paul — January 6, 2007 @ 1:18 am
And Saddam felt he was justified in the executions and killings he ordered.
Imagine, if you will, 100’s of millions of Muslims invade D.C. capturing President Bush. They install a puppet government which puts Bush on trial for the deaths of 655,000 Muslims. The government, composed of left-leaning radicals, finds Bush guilty and sentences him to die by hanging. After an expedited appeals process, the conviction is confirmed and on Christmas Morning, 2007, Bush is hanged. A video is released later that day showing Democrats shouting Pelosi! Pelosi! as Bush drops through the trapdoor and his neck is snapped.
Would you say Bush’s execution was justice? If not, how can you say Saddam’s execution was justice?
January 6th, 2007 at 1:58 amPaul
January 6th, 2007 at 1:59 amhere lies the fallacy of your argument: Saddam was a monster and he needed to be executed. But like all other monsters, serial killers and mass murderers who are executed in a civilized society they are allowed to die with dignity. That is the reason why the Nazis were executed there were no pictures taken or filming done. That is also the reason why no one is allowed a camera inside the execution chamber in the USA. However this just became a public relations debacle for the US not because the US authority executed Saddam, but because we are there, we had him in our custody and we turned him over to the Iraqis who killed him more for their reasons. This not just adds fuel to the fire of the sectarian and violence and civil war in Iraq but because the execution was done in such a botched and hurried manner that it allows the rest of the crazy savages out there to hate us even more. You might disagree but we are in a no-win situation and this is just another notch in that.
Comment by carolinablue — January 6, 2007 @ 1:59 am
Why must we kill someone to show killing is wrong?
If we sentence someone to life in prison without possibility of parole, is that not enough?
January 6th, 2007 at 2:06 amThat is a fundamental difference in viewpoint. I am not discussing capital punishment here. However one reason I believe he should have been executed after a more open trial is the same reason why the Nazi war criminals were executed….. these people had built a cult of personality around them through fear and some really horrible and heinous acts. Ending their lives gives comfort to the people who lived under their tyranny that they will never ever come back.
January 6th, 2007 at 2:13 amI just wanted to say that I think Saddam’s execution was justice.
Fair enough. Exactly what is justice? Is Iraq a country that can be ruled without an iron fist? Is the post-saddam iraq a better place to live, or for the world around it?
In any case, I think the point is the PERCEPTION of much of the middle east, not the reality. Regardless of your opinion on the death penalty, or its applicability in this case, anyone with any sense has to admit the timing (on the first day of a Sunni holiday) and the surprise appearance of the Shia cheerleader squad were HUGE PR blunders. The end result of all this is Saddam looking like a martyr to anyone who hates america.
Oh, and did you guys hear about the 10 year old AMERICAN kid who acidentally killed himself imitating saddam’s hanging? Yes folks.. an AMERICAN child died trying to pretend to die like saddaam did.. probably the first time in recorded history an execution has inspired a copycat suicide. Its one isolated incident, but its very symbolic of how this hanging was perceived around the world.
(still waiting for Rick to line me up against the wall..)
January 6th, 2007 at 2:21 amBriseadh na Faire. I believe it would be not likely but possible for the political situation to change in Iraq drastically enough that Saddam could have one day been restored to power. For that reason and many others, his execution was the right thing.
January 6th, 2007 at 2:27 amPaul,
January 6th, 2007 at 2:40 amSaddam was a hero. He dies like a true man unlike Bush! If Bush was about to be executed he would cry like a bitch! I prsy for Saddam a great humanist and a loving man!
I admire Muslims. It takes guts to blow yourself up!
January 6th, 2007 at 2:47 amD Nice. Like I always say: one opinion out of 6 billion, can’t be wrong.
January 6th, 2007 at 2:48 amI believe it would be not likely but possible for the political situation to change in Iraq drastically enough that Saddam could have one day been restored to power.
oh the horror. worse things could happen.
and they will.
i have to admit, im biased. anyone who drops gas on religious nuts of any persuasion has a fond place in my heart. there is NO reasoning with religious nuts. in thier mind they are 100 % right, and anyone who disagrees with them needs to be eliminated.
no negotation,
no compromise.
no reasoning with these people.
organized religion is one of the worst diseases to plauge the human mind.
the ignorance and intolerance it has spread has ended more lives than any genocidal dictator could ever dream of.
killing religious nuts is the only real way to deal with them. period. send them to the heaven they so violently beleive in. if heaven is as real as they beleive, they shouldnt mourn being sent to a better place. think of killing them as giving them a one way ticket to paradise.. who could refuse that..?
January 6th, 2007 at 2:50 amPaul,
January 6th, 2007 at 2:52 amSaddam was a great progressive. He cared about people. He gave them healthcare and education. That’s what this site is about. Did you know Stalin, Hitler and Mao were great humanists too! Ask anyone on this site!
Saddam is a hero to Millions! Bush is a zero. Saddam’s praises will be sung about long after Bush is forgotten!
January 6th, 2007 at 3:02 amBin Laden, Nasrallah and Mahmoud Ahmedinejad are heroes! They stand up to eveil corporate Americans. Long after Bush is gone Zarqawi’s face will adourn T-Shirts!
January 6th, 2007 at 3:09 amThat is not the real Juan C.
January 6th, 2007 at 3:10 amI am Juan C. There’s only one of me! Who else hate the eveil Corporate Capitalist system!
January 6th, 2007 at 3:13 amthat is not the real Juan C. You imposter!
January 6th, 2007 at 3:17 amImposters of imposters of imposters. Is anyone on the board wasted, or a double agent?
January 6th, 2007 at 3:45 amOne who lives by sword dies by it. Politicians , particularly autocrats meet with gory and bizarre ends.
If only power would teach people to be compassionate.
http://www.tekno-world.blogspot.com
January 6th, 2007 at 6:52 amWho said the best revenge is dying well. saddam went down with his manliness intact which is very important in the Arab world. I think the new myth of him as a man who defended Sunni Arabs against Iran, Isreal and the US will continue grow.
January 6th, 2007 at 7:17 amSaddam walked a brave man to the gallows. While the same night Bush was hidding in an Armoured Vehicle outside his Texass range cause there was a storm . Chicken , he would bawl his heart out going to gallows
January 6th, 2007 at 8:54 amGood morning, my progressive friends. I just wanted to say that I think Saddam’s execution was justice. Am I alone here in thinking that?
Comment by paul — January 6, 2007 @ 1:18 am
No Paul – you aren’t alone. But it doesn’t make you right anymore than those who agree with one another that the sun revolves around a flat Earth, that Global Warming is a Hoax, or that Elvis is still alive. People think a lot of things that aren’t valid… but it doesn’t seem to stop them.
The reality is, if you consider it critically, that true justice is not killing someone you just condemned for killing others. That is revenge. And revenge is an angry attack that simply breeds more violence… as it is now doing.
You cannot fight fire with fire. That only makes a much bigger fire. The proof is in the chaotic blood-shed that has become Iraq. Peace is the answer. And true justice is peaceful. Peace is the higher road….
January 6th, 2007 at 9:11 amEnding their lives gives comfort to the people who lived under their tyranny that they will never ever come back.
Comment by carolinablue — January 6, 2007 @ 2:13 am
If that is true, then it is our culture that has problems.
Charles Mansion and his ‘family’ are spending the rest of tehir lives in prison. They will never get out. Meanwhile, Timothy McVeigh was put to death. In neither case did the horros of their actions get erased, did their loved ones come back, or did it undo anything.
Capital Punishment doesn’t change the events that happened. If people believe otherwise, they are condoning the very thing they claim to oppose.
January 6th, 2007 at 9:17 amComment by stoney varoney — January 6, 2007 @ 2:22 am
Racist jokes are not funny. Try redstate they like to laugh at other people. We don’t.
January 6th, 2007 at 9:20 amwho could refuse that..?
Comment by Whitey HermAphrodite — January 6, 2007 @ 2:50 am
Me – an Atheist. I’m oppose to killing 99% of the time. Even religious nuts, who I do agree with you are the main source of killing. The problem is in becoming a hypocrite who kills people for killing. It makes you the very thing you oppose.
I believe education is the antidote to religion. After all, the most educated (not just by college, you can self-educate through experiences) tend to be less religious the more awareness they become of the actual universe that exists.
Religion is ignorance of the truth. The way to combat that ignorance is with knowledge. Give everyone a free college education – since we’re not doing much of anything to improve the k12 public system that is weakening our country.
January 6th, 2007 at 9:27 ami have to admit, im biased. anyone who drops gas on religious nuts of any persuasion has a fond place in my heart. there is NO reasoning with religious nuts. in thier mind they are 100 % right, and anyone who disagrees with them needs to be eliminated.
no negotation,
no compromise.
no reasoning with these people.
organized religion is one of the worst diseases to plauge the human mind.
the ignorance and intolerance it has spread has ended more lives than any genocidal dictator could ever dream of.
killing religious nuts is the only real way to deal with them. period. send them to the heaven they so violently beleive in. if heaven is as real as they beleive, they shouldnt mourn being sent to a better place. think of killing them as giving them a one way ticket to paradise.. who could refuse that..?
Comment by Whitey HermAphrodite
Whitey, BRAVO!!
January 6th, 2007 at 9:53 amPut Bush on trial in an Iraqi court say established by any group other then the puppet American sponsored Iraqi government. If Bush is found guilty let them decide the penalty for his crimes. Let masked men administer his sentence. Let sight seers heckle him. What do you say is this not the “justice” some of you are supporting? Maybe, on second thought, you would support Bush and his henchmen being sent to The Hague and being tried by the World Court under the same rules that were applied to the Nazis?
January 6th, 2007 at 10:11 amWhat do you say is this not the “justice†some of you are supporting?
No. It isn’t.
Maybe, on second thought, you would support Bush and his henchmen being sent to The Hague and being tried by the World Court under the same rules that were applied to the Nazis?
Comment by doug — January 6, 2007 @ 10:11 am
That would be justice. To say it isn’t, would be blinded by party loyalty no matter what.
January 6th, 2007 at 10:17 amWASHINGTON (AP) — A Marine squad that had just endured casualties from a roadside bombing ordered five unarmed Iraqi civilians out of a taxi, and the squad leader shot them, eyewitnesses say in a new report obtained by The Washington Post.
January 6th, 2007 at 10:53 amCharles Mansion and his ‘family’ are spending the rest of tehir lives in prison. They will never get out. Meanwhile, Timothy McVeigh was put to death. In neither case did the horros of their actions get erased, did their loved ones come back, or did it undo anything.
Comment by unbelievable — January 6, 2007
Unbelievable,
January 6th, 2007 at 11:04 amI understand where you come from. I am against the death penalty in 99% of the cases. However the 1% that I agree with are for people like Saddam, Goering etc. Here’s the reason why: In case of Manson, Mcveigh and all those nutjobs, they acted alone for the most part with a handful of followers. They were not heads of state and did not use the power of the state to terrorize and brutalize their people. In case of Saddam and the Nazis they did use the power of the state to do more harm than good. People lived under continuous fear. Millions were killed by them. Take Stalin for example, while he ruled people under him were so fearful that when he died they did not believe it for a long time. The picture of lines you may have seen outside Stalin’s tomb was not people paying respect but people making sure that the monster was dead.
I would have preferred Saddam’s trial and punishment done more appropriately by an international tribunal for crimes against humanity which included all the people who had died under him, rather than this rush job which looked more like a lynching than actual justice.
Leave it to the Bush gang to find a way against all odds to turn one of the least sympathetic characters in history into a statesmanlike martyr. Can’t these clowns get anything right?
Anyone who believes the belated claim that U.S. officials tried to slow down the execution is ignorant, gullible, and probably downright stupid. The U.S. had 100% control over the exact timing of the execution. Undoubtedly Hussein’s handover to the Iraqis for the execution was personally approved by Bush.
January 6th, 2007 at 11:40 amYou agree not to:
• Post any content to the Blog that is unlawful, racist, hateful, libelous, defamatory, obscene, or that intentionally discriminates against or harasses particular individuals or groups.
It appears that Think Progress is not enforcing this particular “Term of Use” today.
January 6th, 2007 at 11:51 amIt appears that Think Progress is not enforcing this particular “Term of Use†today.
Comment by Wayne A. Schneider — January 6, 2007 @ 11:51 am
TODAY? … imagine that…
January 6th, 2007 at 11:53 amI think that Paul’s comments here today illustrate perfectly the sort of tunnel vision that afflicts Bush supporters. Paul can only focus on a whether Saddam deserved to live or die, obviously without any regard for the big picture. Never mind the ramifications of the turning Hussein into a popular martyr. Never mind how many innocent people, including U.S. soldiers, will be killed because this execution has stoked sectarian rage throughout the Middle East. Just give immature, ignorant little Paul his voyeuristic moment of vengeance. And if we need to execute more evil Middle Easterners in the wake of future violence, and keep on executing them for years to come, then so be it.
January 6th, 2007 at 12:01 pm#51. I agree. I can’t remember who said this while at the execution but it was drowned out by the ones seeking vengence. He was calling for calm because the act itself is justice and not to be filled with revenge. He was pointing out that justice is being served.
January 6th, 2007 at 12:07 pmI will not celebrate Saddam’s death because that would be a sad, sick thing to do. Do I think he deserved it? Yes. But it should have been done after a few more of his trials were completed. That way there would have been more details about his atrocities on public record.
In cases of dictators (and dictatorships), the death penalty does work. Look at the example of the Nazi party. After Hitler did himself in, and the many others we sentenced to death, the Nazi party dissolved and the heads ran to places that would welcome them. But they were unable to organize and regain any form of control because of the FEAR of what would happen to them.
Another point about the martyrdom of Saddam. He is no more or less a martyr than if a Kurd had been the one to take him out with a rifle. His death, be it by US, Iraqi, or Iraqi Kurd hands created the martyrdom.
January 6th, 2007 at 12:10 pmkaty,
I popped into the office today to check out last night’s threads and I saw all the anti-Muslim jokes, which I would interpret to be a violation of the Terms of Use. But it’s not my site, and it’s up to TP to decide if they want their comments littered with feces like that.
January 6th, 2007 at 12:18 pmI AM ONE OF MILLIONS WHO IS GLAD YOU ARE IN THE MINORITY
Yelling that repeatedly doesn’t make it any less untrue.
I AM WORKING HARD EVERYDAY TO INSURE PEOPLE LIKE YOU NEVER HAVE A SEAT AT THE TABLE OF DECISION MAKING HERE IN THE USA
Considering the results of the November 7th election, you’re not doing so well…
I GUESS IT IS WORKING
I WILL WORK EVEN HARDER NOW
If it’s working, then you wouldn’t need to work harder… LOL
YOU KNOW HUBRIS IN A MESSAGE BOX IS A FAR CRY FROM ACTUALLY HAVING ANY MEANINGFUL LEGISLATION DRAWN IN YOUR NAME
Only to shallow egotistical nutjobs.
YOU JUST STAY HERE IN YOUR NICE LITTLE MESSAGE BOX AND TYPE
I guess you’re still in denial about us having a HUGE inpact on the liberal take-over of Congress – both House and Senate, eh? Well, the grief process does take years for some…
THE REAL DECISION MAKERS HAVE WORK TO DO LITTLE LADY
GO BAKE SOME COOKIES OR SOMETHING
YOU KNOW WOMANS WORK
No I don’t, but apparently you do. LOL
SHALOM !!
DEATH TO PALESTINE
Comment by halbert holmert — January 6, 2007 @ 11:19 am
Tell your doctor to up the dosage, would ya?
January 6th, 2007 at 12:20 pmJudd and TP admins. This halbere clown is turning the site into what HuffPo has become. A circus for trolls. That’s the reason I left there.
January 6th, 2007 at 12:22 pmplease use some discretion in whacking these moles, but they’re chewing up the yard.
In cases of dictators (and dictatorships), the death penalty does work.
Comment by robert — January 6, 2007 @ 12:10 pm
No it doesn’t. If it did, we wouldn’t have any dictators anymore…
Dictators are sociopaths (this includes Bush who is a Dictator inhis own mind), and sociopaths think they are not subject to the same rules or consequences of others. As a result, nothing stops them.
It’s worse if they think a god or some variety commands them – because then they are even more irrational in their belief that it is divine right and that they are different.
January 6th, 2007 at 12:23 pmi didn’t read the jokes, wayne… but you are correct…
January 6th, 2007 at 12:24 pmseems strange that they are still there…
the same guy who could entertain with pictures drawn with punctuation marks discredits himself with racist jokes… sad…
i was a bit impressed with the art… now it will be gone when/if the poster is deleted… too bad…
The ethnic cleansing of Sunnis has started read Aljazeeras and BBC news – BAD MOVE BUSH
January 6th, 2007 at 12:26 pmPrime Minister Nouri Kamel al-Maliki appears to have thrown down the gauntlet in the coming regional Shia vs Sunni wars. His speech directed at the Sunni led nations in the region about the execution exposed his intent. I believe that Maliki will now merge Iraq into the folds of the Iranian controlled Shia Crescent.
The Shia controlled Iraqi government next step would be to control the Sunni’s within her borders. Then and only then can the militarization of the entire Shia Crescent begin.
What a friggin mess….
Who the hell is in charge of America’s strategic planning? The Shia Crescent has now been completed with the assistance of the US….
January 6th, 2007 at 12:29 pmIran’s mullahs will now control Iraq through her Shia controlled proxies at the helm of the Iraqi government.
I oppose the use of capital punishment in all cases, reagrdless of the crime for which the accused is charged. I believe that killing people is only acceptable in limited circumstances, all of which must involve the threast of imminent death or serious harm to another. (If you’re interested in the rest of my thinking on this, go here.)
I do not believe that Saddam was ever going to get anything remotely resembling a “fair trial”. So executing him afterwards amounted to nothing more than murder. As Briseadh so rightly put it above, I do not believe in killing people to showe that killing people is wrong. And in this, all God-fearing people should be in agreement. After all, doesn’t the saying go, “Vengeance is mine, sayeth the Lord”? Who are we, as “mere humans”, do be doing the work of God? (That’s for those who believe in God; we atheists are not troubled by this aspect.)
After the first Gulf War, Gen Norman Schwarzkopf actually said, “I would have liked to push on to Baghdad and put a crick in his neck… after a fair trial of course”. (Let there be no misunderstanding or dancing around the words. “Put a crick in his neck” meant “hang him”.) So the General was saying, in effect, “I would have liked to push on to Baghdad and kill Saddam…after a fair trial, of course.” Now I ask you, how can ANY trial be considered a “fair” one, if the punishment has already been decided in advance?
Lastly, a “civilized” people (if they are going to use capital punishment at all) would allow the condemned some dignity before killing him. Because we turned him over to thugs and miscreants who wanted nothing but blood lust revenge, Saddam was denied this last bit of humanity from the world. When you kill people, you become the people you condemn.
January 6th, 2007 at 12:31 pmunbelievable, #57,
Up to a point I agree with you. But how do you stop sociopaths from developing and coming to power? I know for one, you do not fund them, that is obvious. But once they are in power, how do you remove them and how do you stop more dictators from fulling the void? There has to be an incentive to NOT rule that way. I think knowing that your life hangs in the balance (no pun intended) can be a pretty good start.
January 6th, 2007 at 12:34 pmTODAY? … imagine that…
Comment by katy — January 6, 2007 @ 11:53 am
Yet I am again the victim of another appearing/disappearing post at 10:26 am….
Yes, jokes in poor taste can stay up, while serious commentors are deleted. See you all over at dailykos.
January 6th, 2007 at 12:36 pm
Wayne A. I agree that Saddam was entitled to die with more dignity than he did. I can understand there being an Official video/photos, especially since images speak louder than words in that region (that is why the published post-mortum pics of Uday and Qussay(sp?)).
If they needed witnesses then there should have been some kind of enclosed viewing gallery and the only people in the death chamber should have been the executioners and maybe Maliki or Talabani. Other than that, NO ONE, regardless of position should have been able to carry ANYTHING to the execution. No cellphones, PDAs, Not even a pack of cigs.
January 6th, 2007 at 12:40 pmBnF, I hate to see you go after you just go back!
TP can you PLEASE remove the racial, ant Muslim jokes, They are offensive to many (most) posters on this site.
January 6th, 2007 at 12:43 pmUp to a point I agree with you. But how do you stop sociopaths from developing and coming to power?
To begin with, fix the public education system to stop enabling them…
Which will also educate the public. An educated public would not allow such a person to position himself for such a grab.
True power is knowledge.
I know for one, you do not fund them, that is obvious. But once they are in power, how do you remove them and how do you stop more dictators from fulling the void?
First of all – some countries and their cultures want or enable dictators. I don’t think you can stop them all, because in some cases, they are choosen.
But in countries and cultures like ours – they have been, as Thomas Jefferson said – prevented by keeping the people educated – and armed.
There has to be an incentive to NOT rule that way.
Welcome to the first and second amendments…
I think knowing that your life hangs in the balance (no pun intended) can be a pretty good start.
Comment by robert — January 6, 2007 @ 12:34 pm
But they don’t think that.
The proof is in the fact that they ever became dictators to begin with….
January 6th, 2007 at 12:47 pmunbelievable,
You still have not answered, How do you stop someone frome being a sociopath?
To begin with, fix the public education system to stop enabling them…
Which will also educate the public. An educated public would not allow such a person to position himself for such a grab.
We can do that here, how do we ensure that abroad?
Welcome to the first and second amendments…
Again, how do we do this abroad? That is projecting American values on a foriegn nation.
January 6th, 2007 at 3:28 pmYou still have not answered, How do you stop someone frome being a sociopath?
You probably don’t robert – they are most likley born that way. You just have to stop sociopaths from getting into positions of authority. Agin, by educating yourself on what one is.
How to diagnose one (if Bush isn’t an obvious enough example):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisocial_personality_disorder
We can do that here, how do we ensure that abroad?
Abroad is none of our business. It’s why this is our country and we define it with invisible boundaries.
Again, how do we do this abroad? That is projecting American values on a foriegn nation.
Comment by robert — January 6, 2007 @ 3:28 pm
Again, the only thing you can control is yourself. You can’t control what others do.
The thing you can do to prevent them from attacking you to some degree (there is no absolute certainty) is to maintain positive foreign relations with them, and when that doesn’t work – you have the right to defend yourself.
To pre-emptively attack people because of what you fear they might do is just as bad as if they attacked you. It doesn’t matter why you attacked first – the legality is in the fact that you did attack first.
January 6th, 2007 at 4:00 pmA mnemonic that can be used to remember the criteria for antisocial personality disorder is CORRUPT:
C – cannot follow law
January 6th, 2007 at 4:01 pmO – obligations ignored
R – remorselessness
R – recklessness
U – underhandedness
P – planning deficit
T – temper
69 – do you realize you have just described every ex-spouse in the country???
LOL
January 6th, 2007 at 4:08 pmunbelievable. I think your outlook and values are commendable. It would be wonderful it everyone in the world believed as you do. Are you at all concerned that if the U.S. adopted your strategy of non-confrontation, that our values as a society might be supplanted by the values of those in the world who might not be as considerate and trusting as you are?
January 6th, 2007 at 4:15 pmIt seems that many here are solely concerned how Saddam’s execution will effect the situation or sentiment in the Middle East. Is anyone willing to concede that it was the right thing to do, regardless the political or tactical ramifications? Are those the only things that are important? There also doesn’t seem to be a recognition here that the trial, sentence and execution were carried out (rightfully so) by Iraqis and not the Bush Administration.
January 6th, 2007 at 4:23 pmdo you realize you have just described every ex-spouse in the country???
Comment by family feud — January 6, 2007 @ 4:08 pm
Well, that explains the current divorce rate… :D
January 6th, 2007 at 4:24 pmAre you at all concerned that if the U.S. adopted your strategy of non-confrontation, that our values as a society might be supplanted by the values of those in the world who might not be as considerate and trusting as you are?
Comment by paul — January 6, 2007 @ 4:15 pm
Pacivism is not the same as passivism…
It’s simply really. Newton’s Third Law of Motion: For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction.
If you give respect, then odds are highly in your favor that you will get respect.
However, if you give violence, well, then, you shouldn’t be too surprised when you get it back, since the opposite force of ‘to give’ is ‘to get’.
Hence the adage of “You reap what you sow.”
January 6th, 2007 at 4:30 pmIs anyone willing to concede that it was the right thing to do, regardless the political or tactical ramifications?
Comment by paul — January 6, 2007 @ 4:23 pm
No. Killing to prevent killing is not justice. Bush has killed more Iraqis to ‘liberate’ them than Saddam did to rule them. And they didn’t ask to be ‘liberated’… certainly not like this.
January 6th, 2007 at 4:34 pmunbelievable. I respect your ‘reap what you sow’ example and generally believe in it. I don’t think that mindset works, however, with the likes of Hitler, Saddam, and the most radical of Islamic fundamentalists. My concern is that if we devote all our attention to respecting others (which would be noble), we leave our values vulnerable to attack. It may sound paranoid, but I sight a few incidents that concern me about fundamentalist Islamic intolerance:
9/11 and pre 9/11 terrorist attacks
Outrage and threats over the Danish cartoonist
Threats and violence after the Popes comments
Pressure to ban the German play
Threat to kill the Middle Eastern man just just for being a Christian
Threatening intolerance for other religions and beliefs
Muslims taxi drivers in the U.S. refusing to carry blind passengers with dogs due to religious differences
Gay lynchings in Iraq. Innocent prisoner beheadings.
Honor killings. Restrictions on women’s rights.
Threats to push Israel into the sea and death to infidels (you/me)
Of course many more examples of serious intolerance
I am not a Christian and believe Christian intolerance has been and is damaging to civiliazation. That being said, I don’t see the equivalent Christian intolerance to the mindset of today’s radical Islam. I believe that disagreements with the Bush Administration has promoted a selective outrage that is blind to Islamic intolerance that is the real threat to western liberty and freedoms. I sincerely request examples of the Christian or western intolerance that have generated this ‘equal and opposite reaction’.
January 6th, 2007 at 5:29 pm9/11
Comment by paul — January 6, 2007 @ 5:29 pm
9/11 was an elaborately planned frame-up. You still falling for the official lies?
January 6th, 2007 at 6:15 pmI don’t think that mindset works, however, with the likes of Hitler, Saddam, and the most radical of Islamic fundamentalists.
Saddam never attacked us and was under UN weapons inspections that kept him from having WMDs (a peaceful solution). Hitler was not a radical Muslim – he was a radical Christian – supported by the Pope, the Catholic church and was elected. He was allowed to get to the point that he did because the German people let him.
My concern is that if we devote all our attention to respecting others (which would be noble), we leave our values vulnerable to attack.
Then explain why no one is attacking Sweden or Norway or Switzerland or Austria or Australia or Brazil or most other Democratic Industrialized nations? And before you say our ‘values’, know that our values are not that much different than the other industrialized nations.
It may sound paranoid, but I sight a few incidents that concern me about fundamentalist Islamic intolerance:
9/11 and pre 9/11 terrorist attacks
This bothers you but not Bush killing more innocent people than these events combined?
Outrage and threats over the Danish cartoonist
Why does this bother you?
Threats and violence after the Popes comments
Pressure to ban the German play
Threat to kill the Middle Eastern man just just for being a Christian
Threatening intolerance for other religions and beliefs
Muslims taxi drivers in the U.S. refusing to carry blind passengers with dogs due to religious differences
Gay lynchings in Iraq. Innocent prisoner beheadings.
Honor killings. Restrictions on women’s rights.
Threats to push Israel into the sea and death to infidels (you/me)
You could substitute Radical Christian Americans and get the same results – those who threaten violence against those who reject the ideals of the Christian Taliban. Yet, you support those kinds of radical Christians when you support the Bush Regime.
I am not a Christian and believe Christian intolerance has been and is damaging to civiliazation. That being said, I don’t see the equivalent Christian intolerance to the mindset of today’s radical Islam.
Pharmacists refuse to fill women’s prescriptions due to Christian beliefs.
Keith Ellison ridiculed for wanting to swear in on a quran.
The refusal to grant equal rights to gays in love.
The refusal to accept gays, women, blacks, hispanics and other religions as equals.
The demand to force Merry Christmas on everyone because Happy Holidays isn’t good enough.
Bombing abortion clinics.
Killing abortion doctors.
Killing people because the christian ‘god’ told them to do it.
Timothy McVeigh.
Ted Kazinsky.
Ted Bundy.
Pedophile priests.
The list of crimes is just as long as just as violent, bloody and oppressive.
I believe that disagreements with the Bush Administration has promoted a selective outrage that is blind to Islamic intolerance that is the real threat to western liberty and freedoms.
In the radical left 20% yes. I do accept that we have our share of extremists. The difference is that our tend not to go around killing other people….
I sincerely request examples of the Christian or western intolerance that have generated this ‘equal and opposite reaction’.
Comment by paul — January 6, 2007 @ 5:29 pm
See the list above. If I think aboutit a bit, I’m sure I can give you more. Those were off the top of my head.
January 6th, 2007 at 6:29 pmhttp://www.michiganatheists.org/events/caro/caro.html
January 6th, 2007 at 6:35 pmRandall Terry , founder of Operation Rescue:
“I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good… Our goal is a Christian Nation. We have a Biblical duty; we are called by God, to conquer this country. We don’t want equal time. We don’t want pluralism. â€
Jerry Falwell, founder of the Moral Majority: “Just give me the Supreme Court.â€
Ralph Reed, former executive director of the Christian Coalition:
“I do guerrilla warfare. I paint my face and travel at night. You don’t know until you’re in a body bag. You don’t know till election night.â€
Pat Robertson, GOP presidential candidate, 1988:
January 6th, 2007 at 6:36 pm“When the Christian majority takes over this country, there will be no more satanic churches, no more free distribution of pornography, no more abortion on demand, and no more talk of rights for homosexuals. After the Christian majority takes control, pluralism will be seen as immoral and evil and the state will not allow anyone to practice it. â€
http://www.hatecrime.org/subpages/hatespeech/hate.html
After you visit our site, we invite you to try an experiment. Click on one of the two buttons below to see how the quotes on this page would read if the word “gay” was replaced with the words “blacks” or “Jews.” If the quotes aren’t hateful, the word change shouldn’t offend.
January 6th, 2007 at 6:41 pmFranklin Graham, son of Billy Graham
Nov 16 2001: “We’re not attacking Islam but Islam has attacked us. The God of Islam is not the same God. He’s not the son of God of the Christian or Judeo-Christian faith. It’s a different God, and I believe it [Islam] is a very evil and wicked religion.”
Minister Benny Hinn
Benny Hinn proclaimed to thousands of Christians at the American Airlines Center in Dallas, TX that “We are on God’s side. This is not a war between Arabs and Jews. It’s a war between God and the devil.”
At about 39 minutes into a 2002-NOV-10 broadcast, televangelist Jimmy Swaggart referred to the Prophet Muhammad as a “sex deviant,” “pervert,” and “pedophile.” ….”He also called for the expulsion of all foreign Muslim university students in the United States and for profiling of airline passengers ‘with a diaper on their head and a fan-belt around their waist.’ Of American Muslims, Swaggart said: ‘We ought to tell every other Moslem (sic) living in this nation that if you say one word, you’re gone.’ ”
A Madison-area pastor has begun a four-part series of sermons on the ”evils of Islam” and says his church’s eventual goal is to convert Nashville-area Muslims to Christianity.
Try this Paul:
January 6th, 2007 at 6:48 pmhttp://www.funnystrange.com/quiz/
Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson and Usama Bin Ladin have a lot in common. Take the quiz and see if you can identify statements by each of these “leaders.”
In today’s wars, there are no morals, and it is clear that mankind has descended to the lowest degrees of decadence and oppression.
Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson
Usama Bin Ladin
America is polluting the whole world.
Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson
Usama Bin Ladin
The government is committed to supporting God’s religion, the country remains a strong bulwark for religion, and the people are among the most protective of God’s religion, and the keenest to fulfill His laws.
Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson
Usama Bin Ladin
One-world opinion is taking the side of the Palestinians, not the side of Israel.
Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson
Usama Bin Ladin
There will never be world peace until God’s house and God’s people are given their rightful place of leadership at the top of the world.
Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson
Usama Bin Ladin
The government does not cease to cry over matters affecting religion, without making any serious effort to serve the interests of the religious community.
Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson
Usama Bin Ladin
We are on the brink of our destruction, and if we do not awaken now, it will be too late. We have been victimized by traitorous behavior on the part of our leaders.
Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson
Usama Bin Ladin
The media strives to keep the people occupied with minor matters, and to stir their emotions and desires until corruption becomes widespread among believers.
Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson
Usama Bin Ladin
There is no way that a United Nations, treaties, or any other human instrument can bring about peace. Such things mean nothing when one nation desires the land and resources of another.
Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson
Usama Bin Ladin
We have allowed rampant secularism…. We have insulted God at the highest levels of government.
Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson
Usama Bin Ladin
One particular report described the gaps and the shortcoming in the philosophy of the government, the situation of the law within the country and the arbitrary declaration of what is lawful and unlawful regardless of divine law as instituted by God.
Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson
Usama Bin Ladin
Priorities of spiritual work are lost while blasphemy and polytheism continue its grip and control. We should be alert to these atrocious plans carried out by the government.
Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson
Usama Bin Ladin
America is in imminent peril… rotting from within.
Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson
Usama Bin Ladin
The American people have put themselves at the mercy of a disloyal government, and this is most evident in Clinton’s administration. The American government is leading the country towards hell.
Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson
Usama Bin Ladin
The termites are in charge now, and that is not the way it ought to be, and the time has arrived for a godly fumigation.
Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson
Usama Bin Ladin
If America is not suffering the irrevocable judgment of God, she is dangerously close.
Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson
Usama Bin Ladin
Americans have committed unprecedented stupidity. We anticipate a black future for America.
Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson
Usama Bin Ladin
If the judges appointed by man will not deal with those who take innocent human life, then God is going to enter in and bring justice. And when that happens many of the innocent will suffer along with the guilty.
Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson
Usama Bin Ladin
All these crimes and sins committed by Americans are a clear declaration of war on God.
Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson
Usama Bin Ladin
A condition like this will bring about the destruction of your nation. It’ll bring about terrorist bombs; it’ll bring earthquakes, tornadoes and possibly a meteor.
Jerry Falwell or Pat Robertson
Usama Bin Ladin
http://www.funnystrange.com/quiz/
January 6th, 2007 at 6:49 pmThe spam filter is eating the rest of my posts…
Paul – you can google it yourself to get more against Hinduism, Wiccan, women, and so on…
January 6th, 2007 at 7:09 pmunbelievable. I don’t have the time to read and consider all the information that you gave, something just came up. I will look at it. I just wanted to say, thanks for posting it. I will give it all consideration. Good night.
January 6th, 2007 at 8:27 pmunbelievable. After reading your posts, I realize that I agree with almost everything you say. When I hear people like Falwell or Robertson, I just believe that they are ignorant and their hate or intolerance comes from that ignorance. In much the same way, I believe those that promote Islamic jihad are also ignorant and their intolerance comes from that ignorance. The difference between us, I believe, is that you seem to focus on the intolerance of western Christians and I on the intolerance of Islam. I believe as you do that many Christians are intolerant, but I don’t see Christians killing gays just for being gay. I don’t see Christians calling for the deaths of Muslims just for being Muslims. I don’t see Christian honor killings. I don’t here Christians calling for ‘Death to all Muslims’. And although Christians are constantly calling for restrictions on our freedoms (adult entertainment, alcohol, restrictions on gays, restrictions on abortions and women’s rights, etc, etc, etc) western society has the fundamentalist Christians realitively in check. I’m concern that fundamentalist Islam is currently not in check by the more moderate in Muslim societies. I also fear that fundamentalist Islam (just as fundamentalist Christians if allowed) unchecked by the rational among us, will jeapardize all our freedoms and liberty.
January 7th, 2007 at 10:59 amThe lynching of Sudam Hussien was done by America’s puppet government in Iraq. The proceedings were remeniscent of the lynching of blacks, and scalping of Native Americans by Christian KKK types. Same people different place and time.
The sicko-and-chiefs enthusiasm for killing and hiding is all over it.
January 7th, 2007 at 12:37 pm