Rep. Keith Ellison (D-MN) blogs
on the “myth of scarcity.”
In America today, we are encouraged to believe in the myth of scarcity - that there just isn’t enough - of anything. But in the story of the miracle of the loaves and fishes, Jesus, who the Muslims call Isa, found himself preaching to 5000 (not including the women by the way) at dinner time, and there didn’t appear to be enough food. The disciples said that there were only five barley loaves and two fish. We just have to send them away hungry. We simply don’t have enough. But Jesus took the loaves and the fish and started sharing food. There was enough for everyone. There was more than enough. What was perceived as scarcity was illusory as long as there was sharing, and not hoarding. …
If scarcity is a myth, then poverty is not necessary. America need not have 37 million Americans living below the poverty line. It is a choice. Hunger is a choice. Exclusion of the stranger, the immigrant, or the darker other is a choice.
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Well said, Rep Ellison. I knew I’d like you.
There’s always enough, we simply choose not to make it so.
January 7th, 2007 at 6:13 pmHurray. This isn’t a new idea, though. 1984, anyone?
January 7th, 2007 at 6:14 pmThe feeding of 5000 was acomplished by a miracle not an act of sharing.
January 7th, 2007 at 6:19 pmStand by for the incoming rounds… He mentioned Isa (Jesus)
SOMEONE will have issue with this.
January 7th, 2007 at 6:22 pmPoor mandolin totally misses Jesus’ point.
January 7th, 2007 at 6:24 pmI don’t believe in scarcity in America. I believe in abundance. You’ll have to go to North Korea or Cuba to find scarcity.
January 7th, 2007 at 6:26 pmYes scarcity is a myth, so the super wealthy can screw over everybody else! The elite want the masses to be ignorant, and have hardly anything, so just the bare minimum to be worked to death as slaves!
January 7th, 2007 at 6:27 pmYou can go into the desert with only five loaves and two fish and try to feed 5000 of your friends, but unless God is going with you, you’ll be hard pressed to share your way into a meal.
January 7th, 2007 at 6:30 pmYou and I are the super wealthy! If you have $2000 dollars in assets you are one of the richest people on the planet.
January 7th, 2007 at 6:32 pmThe feeding of 5000 was acomplished by a miracle not an act of sharing.
Comment by mandolin
Right on cue….
Did you even read what you wrote? Jeebus…
January 7th, 2007 at 6:33 pmBologna. Complete and utter bologna.
How is Ellison’s reliance on religious mythology any more acceptable than Bush’s consultation with a ‘higher authority’ on the Iraq War?
Ellison is welcome to forfeit his own loaves and fishes; I’ll wait until I start seeing miracles before I donate mine.
January 7th, 2007 at 6:37 pmAnyone comment on the SF Impeachment movement today?
I cannot look thru all the posts, so I’m sorry if it’s a repeat.
January 7th, 2007 at 6:37 pmThanks
Anyone comment on the SF Impeachment movement today?
Comment by trueblue
This is the first I’ve heard of it. Finally, something being done…
Damn, that had to be cold — Ocean Beach in January.
January 7th, 2007 at 6:45 pmSilly man. Isa drives a Suburban and hates negroes.
January 7th, 2007 at 6:48 pmRepublicans want to end bussing and affirmative action because negroes live a life in soft bigotry and lowered expectations. Besides, being a cutthroat is really macho and cool. ;-)
January 7th, 2007 at 6:56 pmThe Confessor,
Have you not read Joseph Campbell’s works?
Myths tell a story. They are not to be strictly adhered to.
It is for insight.
BTW:
January 7th, 2007 at 6:58 pmI’d move from that LL’s place. The rent can’t be that cheap that you have to sacrifice listening to Jay Severin etal…..
“…Americans living below the poverty line. It is a choice. Hunger is a choice.”
So he he blaming the poor for being poor and hungry.
January 7th, 2007 at 6:58 pmrepublicans agree with Ellison that poverty in the US is a choice.
republicans believe poverty is a lifestyle choice of the impoverished.
January 7th, 2007 at 7:00 pm.
So he he blaming the poor for being poor and hungry.
Comment by AnonymousByChizoice
No, he’s saying it’s our choice to allow it to happen.
January 7th, 2007 at 7:01 pmIf scarcity is a myth, then poverty is not necessary. America need not have 37 million Americans living below the poverty line. It is a choice. Hunger is a choice. Exclusion of the stranger, the immigrant, or the darker other is a choice.
Context is a wonderful thing.
Embrace it.
January 7th, 2007 at 7:01 pmThis is heresy!
Without scarcity, there would be no way to make money.
That’s why we pollute the water - so we can make non-toxic water a commodity to sell instead of an abundant natural resource with no scarcity that creates a price.
If energy were not scarce, why, just think what that would do to the corporate power base of the Republican party. We can’t have THAT.
Scarcity is the wellspring of Capitalism. This guy is obviously subversive and a threat to our nation…
People are either trust-based or fear-based by nature. The first group calls the second sick and selfish (basically) while the second calls the first naive, ignorant idealists. Sound familiar?
Since the Second World War (at least) the second group has held sway in this country. It’s even taken over major portions of Christianity and Judaism here.
Trust is a radical decision that one comes to only when they realize that they can never be totally safe and that they refuse to live a life based on fear. Many people refuse to ever make such a radical decision, regardless of their religion or their political party. Ellison seems to be someone who is at least trying to build a life and a world based on trust, even to the extent of extending the hand of friendship to those who fear him, like Virgil Goode.
Building on trust and the belief that there is enough of everything to go around if we will just extend a hand of friendship and cooperation to make it happen is definitely an idealistic vision. But it’s what we want and expect of our families, isn’t it? So, isn’t it time that we acted that way with our HUMAN family and with the life forms that share our oxygen and water with us? In effect, we all eat at the same table on this planet, do we not?
January 7th, 2007 at 7:04 pmFor those who don’t GET IT — allow me to explain. It is a story, a metaphorical story. These stories are used to get a point across to people that an aversion to the truth, an aversion to facts.
January 7th, 2007 at 7:06 pmBuilding on trust and the belief that there is enough of everything to go around if we will just extend a hand of friendship and cooperation to make it happen is definitely an idealistic vision. But it’s what we want and expect of our families, isn’t it? So, isn’t it time that we acted that way with our HUMAN family and with the life forms that share our oxygen and water with us? In effect, we all eat at the same table on this planet, do we not?
Comment by RealityCheck
AMEN!
Nicely put.
So when’s dinner?
;)
January 7th, 2007 at 7:09 pmjust a quick note, Isa is the arabic name for Jesus, Christian arabs also call Jesus “Isa.”
Mr. Ellison is correct. The problem is that we don’t have enough resources to take care of everyone, the problem is an unbelievable unequal distribution of wealth. That is the point he was trying to get across. It’s jus a metaphor, people are taking it too literally.
January 7th, 2007 at 7:09 pmAs someone who has given his share of sermons, I am not at all impressed by the Representative’s thinking, clarity of vision, or use of a Biblical text. That’s even though I agree 100% with his conclusions.
His illustration is sloppy, ill-chosen, and he would have been better off using either a different text or something from the Koran. I would have liked to see him–if he feels compelled to use any scripture at all to make his points–something from his own faith to show people like Rep. Goode who he is and what he believes.
But why do we need to look at the question of poverty from a religious standpoint? It is a moral issue that can be discussed without recourse to any religion.
January 7th, 2007 at 7:12 pmcorrection, I meant the problem is not that we don’t have enough resources.
January 7th, 2007 at 7:12 pm#26 should be banned immediately
January 7th, 2007 at 7:14 pm(chik fill a)
#17
He means allowing it members to be hungry is a choice a society makes.
You and I are the super wealthy! If you have $2000 dollars in assets you are one of the richest people on the planet.
Comment by mandolin — January 7, 2007 @ 6:32 pm
begin quotes “The richest 2% of adults in the world own more than half of global household wealth according to a path-breaking study released today by the Helsinki-based World Institute for Development Economics Research of the United Nations University (UNU-WIDER).
The most comprehensive study of personal wealth ever undertaken also reports that the richest 1% of adults alone owned 40% of global assets in the year 2000, and that the richest 10% of adults accounted for 85% of the world total. In contrast, the bottom half of the world adult population owned barely 1% of global wealth.
The research finds that assets of $2,200 per adult placed a household in the top half of the world wealth distribution in the year 2000. To be among the richest 10% of adults in the world required $61,000 in assets, and more than $500,000 was needed to belong to the richest 1%, a group which — with 37 million members worldwide — is far from an exclusive club.” end quotes
Rest is here.
so your $2000 actually leaves you in the 40th percentile. I have heard George Will use this argument before. It ges something like this : “If you have $2000 you are wealthier than kings in the Middle Ages. Since you are wealthier than a king in the Middle Ages, your poverty is a matter of perception. So every time you think you are poor, just remember how much better off you are than people who llived 500 years ago.”
January 7th, 2007 at 7:15 pm#30
Sir, step away from the thread please, and put your keyboard where the sun doesn’t shine.
January 7th, 2007 at 7:20 pmThe feeding of 5000 was acomplished by a miracle not an act of sharing.
Comment by mandolin
The stories of Jesus are parables not to be taken LITERALLY … get with the 20th century already.
January 7th, 2007 at 7:23 pmIt is a moral issue that can be discussed without recourse to any religion.
Comment by Zip
MORAL implies a religious context. Maybe you mean ethical.
January 7th, 2007 at 7:26 pmALERT TO TP MODERATORS: Please try to regain control of your site.
1. Please ban “chik fill a” for comment #26. This sort of comment, allegedly threatening to assassinate Keith Ellison, should never be tolerated. It should also be reported to the FBI, along with the IP from which the comment originated.
2. Halbert is back under a different identity (comments 30 and 31). Please take whatever action possible to ban this freak from posting.
January 7th, 2007 at 7:31 pmMORAL implies a religious context. Maybe you mean ethical.
Comment by robert
Robert,
Given the threat made to me on this thread, who would have access to your list — the one we talked about before?
January 7th, 2007 at 7:42 pmSeparate church and state. Don’t jumble the mind with this crap.
January 7th, 2007 at 7:42 pmScarcity is a myth that has been used by the elite in power, using it to oppress the poor and middle classes.
There is more than enough food to go around, so why is 1/3 of the world starving?
Class war and poverty needs to be addressed
January 7th, 2007 at 7:45 pmWhile the rich 1% own 50% of the world, the middle class is slipping into poverty and destitution
1/2 Trillion for WAR!
January 7th, 2007 at 7:48 pmEllison, that was wishful thinking and biblical parables, but please stick to reality.There are not enough wealth and resources in the world for more then 2 billion people.Today we are more then 7 billion people in the world.
World economy (capitalism) is based on GROWTH, GROWTH, GROWTH…but man, be real, the only thing that’s growing here is the rich-poor gap.
January 7th, 2007 at 7:50 pmOK, #30,
ASSBAG!
Wanna try to piss on someone else?
Pathetic little PR*CK!
F**K OFF - NOW.
January 7th, 2007 at 7:58 pmJoin the junk mail protest
This is a grassroots effort to protest Bush’s use of signing statements on the Postal Reform Act to give himself the power to open any Americans’ mail for any reason without having to get a court order. This is against Federal law.
All you have to do is send your junk mail to the White House addressed to Bush. Maybe when the White House is buried under thousands of pounds of junk mail will Bush and his fiefdom get the message he is not a King, neither can he be a dictator.
Please participate.
January 7th, 2007 at 8:01 pmComment by trueblue — January 7, 2007 @ 7:58 pm
:-)
January 7th, 2007 at 8:05 pmNobody messes with my friends.
Ever.
:)
Ever.
January 7th, 2007 at 8:06 pmThere are not enough wealth and resources in the world for more then 2 billion people.Today we are more then 7 billion people in the world.
Comment by Hector Garcia — January 7, 2007 @ 7:50 pm
True, as long as we consume resources to produce cheap crap we don’t need and treat greed as a laudable virtue. Otherwise, we would at least have shot at solving poverty and want. But as long as we continue to treat the planet like a toilet and its resources as belonging to the people with the most money (which translates to the most guns), poverty will become the norm.
January 7th, 2007 at 8:08 pmThere are not enough wealth and resources in the world for more then 2 billion people.
Comment by Hector Garcia — January 7, 2007 @ 7:50 pm
Your claim here is simply wrong, Hector. The earth can sustain its current population with its known resources for the foreseeable future. Certainly enough food is produced to feed everyone. The problems lie largely with inadequate political and economic systems to distribute these resources in a responsible and fair way.
January 7th, 2007 at 8:13 pmEver.
Comment by trueblue
Note to self: Always remain trueblue’s friend. :)
January 7th, 2007 at 8:14 pmZooey is a Zero, abraham elliott, mandolin, Halbert ….one and the same. Suggest ignore…….
January 7th, 2007 at 8:17 pmDito to #44 & #47..Blessings
January 7th, 2007 at 8:24 pmComment by GoTfree?DUMB? — January 7, 2007 @ 8:19 pm
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz…….
*snort*… hmmm? Wah?
January 7th, 2007 at 8:25 pmAnyone got an apple?
That’s right, Sharon.
We’ll kick some troll a**!
;)
January 7th, 2007 at 8:26 pmIts still rather humorous to watch adults debate whether something that allegedly happened 2,000 years ago was real or a myth. Wasn’t it Marx who said that religion is the opiate of the people?? Seems like there are a lot of poppies being consumed here and elsewhere.
January 7th, 2007 at 8:28 pmWell i think we are way too many people in this beautiful blue globe if we want to “stay the course” of sustainability.I can add no studies and no numbers of any kind of (Michael Crichton style)just plain common sense.
And look at this strange stone monument message:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Georgia_Guidestones_English.jpg
Seems to be a wise advise…
January 7th, 2007 at 8:28 pmInteresting in that Ellison bespeaks the nature of true Christianity better than those who proclaim themselves as the “true Christians,” that is, the Christian right. And this, despite the fact that he is a member of that much feared religion, Muslim/Islam. At the heart of most diverse religions lie one God and one spiritual truth. We are each other’s brothers and sisters.
January 7th, 2007 at 8:32 pmmoahaha.What freedumb?
Comment by GoTfree?DUMB?
You need to work on your “manical laughter”.
January 7th, 2007 at 8:34 pmComment by GoTfree?DUMB? — January 7, 2007 @ 8:33 pm
Anyone else feel like a good old fashioned pagan ritual?
January 7th, 2007 at 8:36 pmHere ye, here ye…Can we dispense with more relegious quote’s…..Please..Enough already and I will injoy my apple with out all the speel….Mother goose nursery rhimes would be more fitting or perhap’s Alice in Wonderland, after all bull shit is as mad as the hatter…Blessings
January 7th, 2007 at 8:38 pmThe Bible is a MYTH!
C’mon, people!
It’s about a guy who taught love.
That’s it.
We don’t need to hear the thee’s and thou’s.
Just be good to each other.
January 7th, 2007 at 8:38 pm17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Comment by GoTfree?DUMB?
You are using a computer, that what is created by knowledge, am I to think that you are evil?
January 7th, 2007 at 8:40 pmAnyone else feel like a good old fashioned pagan ritual?
Comment by trueblue
I’m up for it. Mmmmmm, apples….
January 7th, 2007 at 8:41 pm“Interesting in that Ellison bespeaks the nature of true Christianity better than those who proclaim themselves as the “true Christians,†that is, the Christian right. And this, despite the fact that he is a member of that much feared religion, Muslim/Islam. At the heart of most diverse religions lie one God and one spiritual truth. We are each other’s brothers and sisters.
Comment by impeachcheneythenbush — January 7, 2007 @ 8:32 pm”
There is a story similar to that involving Muhammad.
January 7th, 2007 at 8:45 pmYep! trueblue, I’m alway’s ready, last Wed was one. next one Imbolic, Feb. 2….We can run naked in the moon light around a bon fire..Yippie….Blessings
January 7th, 2007 at 8:45 pmSeriously, the FBI needs to hear about #26 chik fill a and his Israeli rifle. The boy just made a death threat against a member of the US House of Representatives. Can you say “felony”?
January 7th, 2007 at 8:45 pmI’m going to add my voice to those requesting thet TP become a registrant only forum. It’s a waste of time to try and post here unless the trolls can be brought under control. Of course, since the goal of the troll is to shut down conversation, or drown it out, whatever, maybe they win. But I’m tired of trying to hear other people talk over the noise.
January 7th, 2007 at 8:48 pmPeople just dont get it.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/ releases/ 2007/ 01/ 070102092224.htm
January 7th, 2007 at 8:48 pmMORAL implies a religious context. Maybe you mean ethical.
Comment by robert
I didn’t know that Aesop was a prophet. Huh.
January 7th, 2007 at 8:52 pmSeriously, the FBI needs to hear about #26 chik fill a and his Israeli rifle. The boy just made a death threat against a member of the US House of Representatives. Can you say “felony�
Comment by Father O’KC — January 7, 2007 @ 8:45 pm
Most people like this would never do it. No cojones. But I wish I could watch him get a visit from ATF or the FBI.
January 7th, 2007 at 8:52 pmThat’s all very nice and good, but unfortunately none of us happens to be Jesus (I don’t think.) And that’s not to say that scarcity isn’t a choice to be made by a society, I fully agree with that — the choice, though, is not about sharing, but management. Less meat, more crops. We use sixteen pounds of grain to get each single pound of beef. That’s a lot of food wasted.
January 7th, 2007 at 9:03 pmIn America today, we are encouraged to believe in the myth of scarcity - that there just isn’t enough - of anything…If scarcity is a myth, then poverty is not necessary. America need not have 37 million Americans living below the poverty line. It is a choice.
************************************
Actually, I think Ellison has a point. Anyone who’s read about quantum physics, affirmations, visualization, and/or the power of mind knows the theory that what we think and/or tell ourselves — especially what we dwell upon — has the potential to influence or even change circumstances, that even matter itself may be subject to the influence of thought. Admittedly, like most things in life, putting the theory into practice is easier said than done because it requires people to suspend their disbelief and move beyond the boundaries of the five senses — to take a leap of faith. Nevertheless, this theory is even described in the Bible — “as a man thinketh, so is he.” It’s even been proven in experiments that someone’s mental and/or emotional state can have an impact on their success at tasks and even on their health…so why might this not apply on a national level?
I read something in a book recently which said much the same thing as Ellison did…that for a country as prosperous as this one to have growing numbers of people in financial difficulty (according to Mother Jones, the number of people receiving food stamps increased by 49% from 2000 to 2005), this must at least in part be the result of choice — of people choosing to feign ignorance and look the other way, of people choosing not to care, of people choosing to exploit and take advantage of their fellow citizens in order to benefit themselves (did I hear someone say “Enron”?).
January 7th, 2007 at 9:14 pmYou wont have that problem. You dont have friends.
January 7th, 2007 at 10:11 pmRobert,
Given the threat made to me on this thread, who would have access to your list — the one we talked about before?
Comment by Zooey
Zooey, I set up a page that has a simple form that is mailed to a mailbox with an address that no one sees. I would only allow someone access to the list that I was 100% confident of who they are. It would be the “sane” ones. People like you, BnF, Sharon, Wayne& Jane,Juan C (among others). I would also put one record that if you “apply” for the list you agree to let all on the list have access to your address unless you ASK SPECIFICALLY for an individual to have that information. SECURITY (yours) IS #1 for me.
I pretty well know the personalities by now and if I think it is not authentic, I will handle it with that person.
Privacy
January 7th, 2007 at 10:17 pmRespect
Integrity
The wingers have their Depends on for this one.
January 7th, 2007 at 10:20 pmInteresting in that Ellison bespeaks the nature of true Christianity better than those who proclaim themselves as the “true Christians,†that is, the Christian right. And this, despite the fact that he is a member of that much feared religion, Muslim/Islam. At the heart of most diverse religions lie one God and one spiritual truth. We are each other’s brothers and sisters.
Comment by impeachcheneythenbush
Remember, Muslims recognize Jesus as a Prophet, so the man knows his Quran.
January 7th, 2007 at 10:25 pmComment by GOT stupid FREEDUMB????? — January
I think you meant “Got Freedom, Stupid?
It’s pretty bad when you have to correct a troll on his own name!
January 7th, 2007 at 10:47 pmSorry. Robert. I am an author and longtime English teacher. Moral does not “imply” religious. It’s about right and wrong, and is not inherently religious. One can be moral without being religious. Check your OED before criticizing someone else’s word choice. P. 1827 in the Shorter OED. Happy reading.
January 7th, 2007 at 10:51 pmThank you Bluestocking:
A relevant comment AND a proper use of asterisks to set apart separate portions of an entry.
Really unlike what we are used to at TP.
**************if you know what I mean.
Scroodles!
January 7th, 2007 at 10:57 pmZip, thanks for the post. And to you, dlet and all, I do stand corrected. I posted my personal meaning of moral and not the dictionary meaning. Apologies for the house.
January 7th, 2007 at 10:59 pmHis illustration is sloppy, ill-chosen, and he would have been better off using either a different text or something from the Koran. I would have liked to see him–if he feels compelled to use any scripture at all to make his points–something from his own faith to show people like Rep. Goode who he is and what he believes.
Comment by Zip — January 7, 2007 @ 7:12 pm
You do know that those who practice Islam see the Bible as a holy text to be studied and learned from, and see Isa (Jesus) as one of the most important prophets of Allah? They also acknowledge that Isa is the Messiah. All the people of Islam deny is that the Messiah is himself divine.
A Muslim quoting from the Bible is completely appropriate from their religious perspective.
January 7th, 2007 at 10:59 pm#75 - Thanks, Robert.
January 7th, 2007 at 11:02 pmIt’s a fable. A bible lesson written at least 40 years later. Didn’t happen except as a preacher’s fantasy to entice heathens to join the church. And, of course, as a way for Jerry to get a new Lexus.
January 7th, 2007 at 11:15 pmThere are not enough wealth and resources in the world for more then 2 billion people.Today we are more then 7 billion people in the world.
Comment by Hector Garcia
Hector, I like your posts but here you are completely wrong. Almost all energy that is delivered to the Earth by the Sun is enough to sustain life, plants and animals, produce huge temperature gradients in the atmosphere and in the sea, so as to produce a changing climate, and also provide human civilization all commodities. The energy that comes from the Sun is 5 orders of magnitude higher than the energy that humans need. Of course, if we continue breeding…well.
As you correctly said, the problem is distribution of wealth, not production. That GROWTH that you talked about is 1 guy getting rich while 20 get poor. GROWTH is a fallacy.
January 7th, 2007 at 11:17 pmtrueblue
zooey
et al
I am watching you no matter how hard you cry and whine
I had a vision
Your day is coming soon
You will meet a violent end
Much misery for you
A wandering soul for all eternity
http://bible.gospelcom.net/ cgi-bin/ bible?passage=&version=KJV
January 7th, 2007 at 11:26 pm8 ¶ And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
9 And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
10 And a river went out of Eden to water the garden; and from thence it was parted, and became into four heads.
11 The name of the first is Pison: that is it which compasseth the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold;
12 And the gold of that land is good: there is bdellium and the onyx stone.
13 And the name of the second river is Gihon: the same is it that compasseth the whole land of Ethiopia.
14 And the name of the third river is Hiddekel: that is it which goeth toward the east of Assyria. And the fourth river is Euphrates.
15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.
16 ¶ And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
OMG - is there anyone awake at TP? Please do not allow this troll to threaten the lives of other individuals. This person needs to be banned!!
January 7th, 2007 at 11:44 pmComment by willy clairvoyance
Bullshit. You’ll be gone again.
January 7th, 2007 at 11:45 pmwilly clairvoyance/hal holmert/freedom is not free,
If you think you are being funny, you are mistaken.
Either make a coherent comment or go away. Stop trolling. Go seek that attention you crave elsewhere, you misogynistic imbecile.
January 7th, 2007 at 11:46 pmJules,
I just e-mailed TP admin. If they care, they will do something, If not, I say we leave this place to the trolls.
January 7th, 2007 at 11:46 pmThis person needs to be banned!!
Comment by Jules
I just e-mailed TP with a copy of that post. I encourage every one to do the same. Only with a high number of complains we can achieve some change for good.
January 7th, 2007 at 11:49 pmI say we leave this place to the trolls.
Comment by robert — January 7, 2007 @ 11:46 pm
As sad as I find that choice, that is what I would have to do. It shocks the conscience that someone would write these horrible, cowardly things.
January 7th, 2007 at 11:50 pmYou, sir-many-names-with-no-life, are a disgusting individual. I don’t care if you have no arms, no legs, and no cock, and have to type with your tongue or via a microchip that has been installed in your brain, you do not have a “right” to post on this site, it is a privilege. And those personal threats to individuals, right down to the statement that you have their exact address is illegal, and you should be investigated and prosecuted.
Call it a hunch, but I’d say you are a coward of the highest magnitude, and would most likely shit your breeches if ever confronted face-to-face by someone you’ve threated to kill, or even “merely” harm. Even if your threats are carefully parsed so as to be “mays” and “mights”.
You are a sad, pathetic excuse for a human being. You give the rest of us a bad name. While I wish you no harm, I do hope that the full brunt of the law comes a-knocking at your door and puts and end to your ridiculous sociopathic behavior.
January 7th, 2007 at 11:52 pmJuan and rober - I too emailed TP. Hopefully someone will notice and do something about this.
January 7th, 2007 at 11:54 pmJust sent off my request to pull the plug on someone who’s so scared of the coming change that they would threaten a life.
Disagree with the people here. Bring an argument and discuss based on facts. But when you are scared of the change and can only throw venom and bile you only show your own fear.
January 7th, 2007 at 11:55 pmsorry - robert for the mis-spelling
January 7th, 2007 at 11:55 pmJules, No problem about the spelling.
Thanks go out to you and Juan.
January 8th, 2007 at 12:01 amrobert, buddy :) Good night.
January 8th, 2007 at 12:06 amI’ve been emailing TP all f*cking day with this shit. Results first thing this morning, but it’s not holding this evening.
Thanks, everyone.
January 8th, 2007 at 12:07 amalls fair in love and politics
Comment by silly clairvoyance
Sorry. You make a threat to a person here. You wont get a chance from me.
January 8th, 2007 at 12:08 amokay i will stop and i was only kidding
however zooey and trueblue will not include me in any conversations here at TP
then they mocked and ridiculed me when i just got banned
that is not right either
they kept goading me and i just goaded back a little harder is all
alls fair in love and politics
Comment by silly clairvoyance
Bullshit. You’re still going to be gone.
January 8th, 2007 at 12:08 amThreatening people is against the law.
Stalking people is against the law.
hell-o-oooo…
January 8th, 2007 at 12:13 amanother trollful night? …ouy…
Sorry. You make a threat to a person here. You wont get a chance from me.
Comment by Juan C
I echo this.
Juan C, have a great evening.
January 8th, 2007 at 12:14 amClarevoyance/hal holbert/freedom is not free,
I do hope you get banned again. There was a reason why you go the boot in the first place.
Maybe you are a very slow learner or your emotional immaturity is too much for you to overcome. Either way, I won’t lose my sleep over it.
Good riddance.
January 8th, 2007 at 12:18 ami got involved in some serious tv watching tonight…
January 8th, 2007 at 12:19 aman excellent pbs documentary about bobby kennedy… sad loss…
seems the threads have been sparse today… slow sunday…
everybody ok?
Well - this seems like a good time to call it a day.
Good night all.
January 8th, 2007 at 12:21 amF*cking trolls are ruining this place. Wasn’t I saying that last night?
January 8th, 2007 at 12:24 amYou know, it’s pretty bad when I am rated as rational and sane around here.
January 8th, 2007 at 12:27 amzooey - can you see me?
January 8th, 2007 at 12:28 amOn topic,
While indifferent to Ellison’s religious imagery, I do agree with him on his central point: Poverty really is a choice society at large makes.
In a country with so much abundance such as the US, it’s nothing short of criminal to have people who are homeless, who go to bed hungry, who don’t have health care coverage for themselves or their loved ones, and who have little prospect of changing their unfortunate situation.
Of course, for the rightwingers, the poor deserve to be poor. They claim to be Christians but their actions are anything but that. I do wonder: Who would Jesus neglect?
January 8th, 2007 at 12:35 amanyone?
January 8th, 2007 at 12:35 amrobert, don’t be so hard on yourself… that’s our job… heh…
zooey - can you see me?
Comment by katy
No, but I can see what you posted. Heh.
January 8th, 2007 at 12:35 amYou know, it’s pretty bad when I am rated as rational and sane around here.
Comment by robert
Wow. Did hell freeze over? :)
January 8th, 2007 at 12:36 amZooey and Trueblue - have a good evening - there are good people out here who are on your side.
Comment by Jules
Thanks, Jules.
There are way more of you, than there are whackos.
January 8th, 2007 at 12:38 amYou know, it’s pretty bad when I am rated as rational and sane around here.
Comment by robert — January 8, 2007 @ 12:27 am
OK - that is freaking funny!!! Nothing like a little levity!
Comment by Jules
And people say conservatives aren’t funny!
Jules, you are good people. Have a great night.
January 8th, 2007 at 12:41 amheh heh heh… for a while there, i thought maybe i was banned (?)…
just curious…
i also sent a message to TP about the above threats…
January 8th, 2007 at 12:42 amthat one went too far… weird psyco troll…
Poverty really is a choice society at large makes.
True, but there is also a responsability of the individual.
Using the provided imagery, Isa (Jesus) did not BRING the fish, he MULTIPLIED the fish, but the fish had to be brought to the table.
Kind of reminds me of another story from the same source, “God helps those who helps themselves.”
January 8th, 2007 at 12:44 amAnd people say conservatives aren’t funny!
Comment by robert
I wouldn’t say that….I think ya’ll are hilarious!
January 8th, 2007 at 12:45 amTrue, but there is also a responsability of the individual.
Comment by robert — January 8, 2007 @ 12:44 am
Although I agree, I have to say the “personal responsibility” meme has been thrown around by conservatives to deny any and all help to the poor and in need. Whether welfare, food stamps, medicare.
Sure, there were abuses (no system is perfect), but to get rid of the programs that have helped millions get by is morally objectionable. Even more considering the corporate welfare system is alive and well.
Kind of reminds me of another story from the same source, “God helps those who helps themselves.â€
This is not a biblical passage, and it has also been used with the same purpose. The poor are not necessarily irresponsible, or incapable of “helping themselves”. They need help -the same help conservatives deny them when cutting funding for social programs.
January 8th, 2007 at 12:52 amUsing the provided imagery, Isa (Jesus) did not BRING the fish, he MULTIPLIED the fish, but the fish had to be brought to the table.
PI =)
January 8th, 2007 at 12:54 amSure, there were abuses (no system is perfect), but to get rid of the programs that have helped millions get by is morally objectionable
We can agree on this, but how long do we provide these things to those who recieve them. True story, I have a sister that is a IV drug user and is HIV+ because of it. She is 45 years old and has maybe worked a total of 3 years in her life. Because of the current welfare laws, she has been recieving benifits becasue she has a “medical disability”. Not the HIV, the Drug addiction.
Does this person deserve the same benifits as the woman that lost her job of 10 years, has always worked hard and has 3 kids? Not in my opinion.
January 8th, 2007 at 1:00 amI think ya’ll are hilarious!
Comment by Zooey — January 8, 2007 @ 12:45 am
uh - surely not ALL of ‘em all…
so much for me… late getting here… just wanted to check it out…
g’nite all…
January 8th, 2007 at 1:01 amDoes this person deserve the same benifits as the woman that lost her job of 10 years, has always worked hard and has 3 kids? Not in my opinion.
Comment by robert
I’m sorry about your sister, Robert.
We, as a society must still care for her. Though not with the same level of benefits as the unemployed mother.
January 8th, 2007 at 1:04 amuh - surely not ALL of ‘em all…
Comment by katy
I learned this from my niece in Texas: ya’ll is singular; all ya’ll is plural.
Isn’t that great?
January 8th, 2007 at 1:06 amnite Katy
Zooey, thanks for your good thoughts.
We, as a society must still care for her. Though not with the same level of benefits as the unemployed mother.
January 8th, 2007 at 1:08 amNow that is inequetity. That is the thing that drives me crazy about the welfare system! Peopel make PERSONAL choices that become a PUBLIC problem.
yep, i know about “all y’all”… have good southern friends…
i meant that you don’t think ALL republicans are hilarious…
“uh - surely not ALL of ‘em all…” …eh?
say good night…
January 8th, 2007 at 1:13 amDoes this person deserve the same benifits as the woman that lost her job of 10 years, has always worked hard and has 3 kids? Not in my opinion.
Comment by robert — January 8, 2007 @ 1:00 am
I am truly sorry to hear about your sister. What a sad story and what a waste of a life. I am dumbfounded to hear addictions qualify as a “medical disabilities”.
Also, I have to agree that it sounds a little, well, insane that the same benefits should be extended to both women. I wouldn’t know exactly how to correct the system; some grading method sounds like a good place to start.
January 8th, 2007 at 1:13 amNow that is inequetity. That is the thing that drives me crazy about the welfare system! Peopel make PERSONAL choices that become a PUBLIC problem.
Comment by robert
That’s the fairness trap again, Robert. Even if we manage to create the perfect world where everyone is healthy and fed, there will be those who simply cannot live in it. Do you really think that at this point your sister’s addiction is a choice?
January 8th, 2007 at 1:14 amnite robert…
January 8th, 2007 at 1:14 amrobert, addiction is a disease…
i’m sorry for your sister’s troubles, and your burden…
it is her choice to get treatment, but it is still a disease…
that’s a very tough call… keep your heart open…
just sayin’…
January 8th, 2007 at 1:20 amDo you really think that at this point your sister’s addiction is a choice?
She has been “cleaned” several times. She has recieved treatment (at taxpayer expense) at least 3 times. Then she goes back to the same things. Same people, same habits. So yes, it is a choice as she CHOSES to put herself in that situation.
I may sound cold about it, but we (the family) haev tried to help her and she CHOSES to live this way instead.
January 8th, 2007 at 1:20 amkaty, thanks. My heart is always open, just like 7-11.
January 8th, 2007 at 1:23 amDo you really think that at this point your sister’s addiction is a choice?
Comment by Zooey — January 8, 2007 @ 1:14 am
Even admitting it was a choice originally, I think it unfair we should throw all welfare recipients in the same pile: Not all are substance abusers, lazy, or financially irresponsible.
As I said, some people game the system, but by and large the poor are honest, hard-working folk. They ought to be given a helping hand.
January 8th, 2007 at 1:25 amI may sound cold about it, but we (the family) haev tried to help her and she CHOSES to live this way instead.
Comment by robert
Robert, I can see your frustration and agree with it. Yes, she chose to do the things that brought her to where she is, but now the addiction has her. So now she may not be able to make the best choices. What would you have happen to her? Through her out on the street to starve and freeze? No. Of course not. We have to care for her, even if we grit our teeth while doing it. By “we” I mean society — not your family.
January 8th, 2007 at 1:26 amThrough her out on the street to starve and freeze? No. Of course not.
Comment by Zooey — January 8, 2007 @ 1:26 am
Robert, I also understand your frustration but you have to admit that the choice Zooey just described is rather stark.
There are not many choices for someone in the situation your sister is in. She needs, well, help. I know sometimes you wish you could just knock sense into people, but that is really not realistic.
I’d say keeping her in medical disability is probably the lesser of evils.
January 8th, 2007 at 1:34 amZooey, actually, as f-ed up as this sounds, she is now in the best place for her. Behind bars. She can’t get (as many) drugs and she is getting treatment for both addiction and HIV. At the same time, she is not allowed to just sit on her butt, she is on a work farm.
Gregor Samsa but by and large the poor are honest, hard-working folk.
This I agree with, and I agree in HELPING them. BUt these are the saem people that are LESS likely to stay on the system for too long because they are hard working and want better for themselves.
A hand up is one thing, a hand out is another.
January 8th, 2007 at 1:37 amA hand up is one thing, a hand out is another.
Comment by robert
Sadly, that tiny percentage of people will always exist. There is simply nothing we can do to help some people live in a way we consider decent.
I’m glad your sister is relatively safe. In the world and from herself.
January 8th, 2007 at 1:55 am“Bologna. Complete and utter bologna.How is Ellison’s reliance on religious mythology any more acceptable than Bush’s consultation with a ‘higher authority’ on the Iraq War? Ellison is welcome to forfeit his own loaves and fishes; I’ll wait until I start seeing miracles before I donate mine.”
Comment by The Confessor — January 7, 2007 @ 6:37 pm
Ellison cites a text agreed to be fact by millions of people the world over. Dubya hears voices, that’s the difference.
January 8th, 2007 at 6:10 amplease notice Mohammed fed no one. also notice men being called head of household , in the day, and the counting being done just as we do it today… by family…. it’s the writing and words that changed.
January 8th, 2007 at 7:13 amModeration, my point wasn’t that he was inappropriate, my point was two-fold: he’s a poor sermoniser. The story he tells makes a weak, illogical and unconvincing transition to the lesson he draws, a lesson a totally agree with.
Yes, I know all about the role of Jesus for Moslems, etc., and I have no problem with people quoting texts from other traditions. I’m a writer, that’s how I see the world: as full of quotable texts. :-) However, given the attacks on Ellison, I would have liked to see him quote from the Koran and basically say thereby: You have a problem with my faith? Here’s a lesson drawn from my sacred book. I would have, in other words, liked to see him educate dimwits like Rep. Goode.
January 8th, 2007 at 7:15 amSo Robert what would you like to do?
January 8th, 2007 at 8:27 amExterminate her? what if she has the potential to become productive one day ? They are getting closer to finding an answer chemically and if that is the case is it not likely that hter is a base for some sort of chemical imbalance as the cause? Someday you may be sorry that you made these statements if this does indeed become the case.
Rep. Ellison’s statements are a refreshing breath of clean air.
January 8th, 2007 at 8:58 amThe myth of scarcity, or “doing lack of” as I have termed it over the years, is in itself a self defeating behavior.
This myth is also the basis of modern corporate capitalism.
Does this person deserve the same benifits as the woman that lost her job of 10 years, has always worked hard and has 3 kids? Not in my opinion.
Comment by robert
Yes, she does. Some people didnt get the chance to make the best choices. Furthermore, Im not claiming to be an expert but addictions are just that, robert: You cant make sane and responsible choices and you are not doing on purpose (to screw your own life). Addictions are not overcome by willpower, thats a myth. Its not like putting all your drugs on the table, sitting in from of it and just fight the impulse. Child molesters and serial killers do not plan to do their crimes all night long (at first), it comes as an impulse they cant resist due to whatever medical or psychological condition. Addictions are resolved by filling that space in your life, in your heart or soul if you want to call it that way that you have been filling with drugs, strippers, cigar, booze, murder victims, porn, etc. So yeah, we all have addictions in some way or another, some of them screw our lives and maybe others, we all have unfulfilling lives one way or another, robert. Dont be so hard.
One last thing: about poor people. You said.
January 8th, 2007 at 8:59 amThis I agree with, and I agree in HELPING them.
Exactly, thats the problem. You DONT have to HELP them. This is the same mental process you probably do regarding iraqis. You didnt have to help them to overcome Saddam. You didnt have to help kosovarians and albanese. Thats racism, robert, to think they cant solve their own problems. The same goes to the poor people: YOU HAVE TO PROVIDE THEM WITH THE SAME OPPORTUNITIES THAT EVERYBODY HAD OR SHOULD. Lets say, the same opportunities your president had in life. You cant solve the poverty problem if you make this division between rich and poor. Any country that has poor citizens is a POOR country no matter how many jet carriers has. We are poor, robert, cuz we live in a world where the vast majority of the people struggles to have a meal. And capitalism, like or not, is a poor producing factory and thats a fact, you just have to take a look around. Whenever you hear a politician say that macroeconomics are doing good, you know that thousands of people are going to get fired.
“I have an Israeli rifle with a bullet made just for Ellison
Muslim blogger give me a break will you please”
This is bullsh!t.
January 8th, 2007 at 9:01 amThis is FBI material. This is Israel.
Administrators and Posters:
Trolls degrade the quality of these threads but equally ANNOYING are interpersonal comments like, “nite Kay you too zooey”, and the like.
This is not your personal instant messenger.
For Christ’s sake, get a room and leave the boards for on-topic comment.
I’m guessing 99% of readers agree…
_____________________________________________________________
On Topic: Ellison is dead on, the growing chasm between “haves” and “have nots” has been growing. The working middle class suffers the most through falling real wages and growing health care costs. I offer no solutions here, but that a congressman raises the issue gives me hope.
January 8th, 2007 at 9:24 am#150
“I have an Israeli rifle with a bullet made just for Ellison
Muslim blogger give me a break will you pleaseâ€
This is bullsh!t.
This is FBI material. This is Israel.
Comment by Jeff — January 8, 2007 @ 9:01 am
Actually it’s USrael. Location loocation location.
January 8th, 2007 at 10:48 amThe FBI piked up a 12 year old girl this year for a lot less than that. Don’t you think it’s your patriotic duty to inform the FBI of this post? I would, but, we don’t have the FBI in Kanuckistan. Well , we do, as does every other country, but I don’t recognize them.
Jeez, they’ll probably be at my door before the guy with the rifle.
MN & SD have a law that hunters can kill cats without a collar feral, barn
January 8th, 2007 at 11:48 amcat, any cat that runs away, dumped or gets out without a collar. How
cany you be a Rep for such a redneck state or live there?
This is me standing up and applauding Congressperson Ellison.
January 8th, 2007 at 12:24 pmNow that is inequetity. That is the thing that drives me crazy about the welfare system! Peopel make PERSONAL choices that become a PUBLIC problem.
Comment by robert #128
robert…
…judging from your obvious dyslexia…
…(or let’s just say that I wouldn’t hire you to edit any of MY copy)…
…you’ve had SOME benefit from the public’s (societal) largesse…
…and that makes you (like most CONNED’selfservative/wannabe)…
…a flaming-hypocrite…
January 8th, 2007 at 3:07 pmI feel sorry for anyone who falls into a desperate strait. I support charities which help these folks. I don’t feel sorry for druggies, drunks or tweakers. They made their gutter…..
January 8th, 2007 at 4:11 pm#6: I don’t believe in scarcity in America. I believe in abundance. You’ll have to go to North Korea or Cuba to find scarcity.
So, if you just “believe” hard enough, you can make the problems associated with poverty go away? What a dumb comment.
January 8th, 2007 at 4:16 pm#153: I feel sorry for anyone who falls into a desperate strait. I support charities which help these folks. I don’t feel sorry for druggies, drunks or tweakers.
How about a person who falls into “a desperate strait” and then starts drinking as a result? These problems aren’t as simple as you seem to suggest. Alcoholics and drug addicts are often mentally ill, the children of abusive parents, and the like. Such people need help to get out of the situations that they’re in.
January 8th, 2007 at 4:20 pmDear JuanC - Thank you for pointing one of the LARGEST problems with “liberalism”. When BAD choices are no longer BAD CHOICES, you have succeeded in de-humanizing people. (The only thing that separates us from some primates is our consciences and ability to choose.) In law enforcement, the name for your classic psycho-babble is “the medicalization of deviance.” (Translation: EVERYONE is sick rather than BAD…)
January 8th, 2007 at 4:26 pmJim - If someone gets in a desperate strait and starts drinking as a result - they are idiots…..what is soooo hard to understand about THAT?
January 8th, 2007 at 4:29 pmUgh. And I was starting to like this guy too.
Yes, there are some poor who choose that life. But conservatives + Ellison believe that ALL who are poor choose that way. ITS NOT TRUE.
Its incredibly ignorant and naive to believe that.
January 8th, 2007 at 5:15 pmJim - If someone gets in a desperate strait and starts drinking as a result - they are idiots…..what is soooo hard to understand about THAT?
Comment by mighty aphrodite — January 8, 2007 @ 4:29 pm
Bigot alert! I’d like to see you hit rock-bottom aphordite. I’ll take away everything you have and put you in a huge debt. Then we’ll see what happens.
January 8th, 2007 at 5:25 pmBigot alert! I’d like to see you hit rock-bottom aphordite. I’ll take away everything you have and put you in a huge debt. Then we’ll see what happens.
Comment by jake3988 — January 8, 2007 @ 5:25 pm
I think he’d crack if you locked him into his room for a couple of hours.
January 8th, 2007 at 5:51 pmBy the way, is afrodorky the same as halbert and the others I listed yesterday?
Dear Jake the Loser - I could strip everything from everybody and hand each American $1 million. You know what, schmuck? In 3 years, you would see multi-millionaires and homeless people. Some people are determined to make the worst possible choices in life….and they love blaming others. (NOTE to poor women - Popping out illegitimate babies is not a busainess model.)
January 8th, 2007 at 6:39 pmCanuck Stan - I knew there was a reason I was grateful for the Canadian border…..
January 8th, 2007 at 6:40 pmBigot alert! I’d like to see you hit rock-bottom aphordite.
Comment by jake3988 # 159
jake,
It’s already there!
…it voted for Bushiva TWICE…
…and it was wrong…
…it supports an occupation and mass murdering of tens of thousands of innocents for the profit of a few…
…it is wrong…
…it is selfish, black-hearted, and inhuman…
…and god has already punished it at least once (severely)…
…it’s Karma is rotten and it has no soul…
I ask you jake…
…how low can one go?
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