Troops uncertain about success in Iraq.
By on Jan 17th, 2007 at 11:12 am
Troops uncertain about success in Iraq.
AP: “[N]early four years into the fighting, some soldiers say it’s getting more difficult to swing their legs over the edge of the cot each morning. With America’s Iraq policy in flux, some troops say they’re asking themselves for the first time whether the U.S. can win the war — or what winning really means here.”
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Russia sells new missiles to Iran
Russia says it has delivered new anti-aircraft missile systems to Iran and that it will consider more requests from Tehran for defensive weapons.
Sergei Ivanov, Russia’s defence minister, said in Moscow on Tuesday that Russia had supplied Iran with the modern short-range anti-aircraft systems TOR-M1
Story on Aljazeeras above BUT can also be found on Chines newspaper Xinhau http://www.xinhuanet.com/english/
January 17th, 2007 at 11:15 amIt’s time to bring the troops home alive to their families > PERIOD.
January 17th, 2007 at 11:16 amLets face it Sistani Has outfoxed Bush and Cheney
Rice running around the middle east was Iniciated By Iraq as part of America to get the oil PSA’s from Iraq ( Fooled Again Bush and CheneyHa Ha Ha )and all Middle east leaders said the same thing
” Palestine and Isreal will live in Peace when Isreal moves back to the 1967 borders”
Iran is not scared at all they must have a good plan up there sleeve Bush has LOST
January 17th, 2007 at 11:19 amIt’s time to bring the troops home alive to their families > PERIOD.
Comment by Jay Randal
What Jay said…
January 17th, 2007 at 11:21 amRussia sells new missiles to Iran
LINK HERE AND WORKS THIS TIME
US reaction
“We don’t think that it’s an appropriate signal to be sending to the government of Tehran when they continue to be in defiance of UN Security Council resolutions,” Tom Casey, a state department spokesman, said.
“We also believe as well that we certainly don’t want to see any kind of lethal aid or assistance given to any country that’s a state sponsor of terror. And as we’ve said, Iran is the leading state sponsor in the world.”
Ivanov, also Russia’s deputy prime minister, did not say how many missile systems had been delivered or when the deliveries took place.
Last year Russia dropped its plans to sell longer-range S300 anti-aircraft missiles to Iran, Russian news agencies reported.
The US at that time imposed sanctions on leading Russian arms firms over arms sales to Iran and Syria.
January 17th, 2007 at 11:22 amThe Doomsday Clock: Nuclear threat ‘rising’
For 60 years, it has depicted how close the world is to nuclear disaster. Today, scientists will move its hands forward to show we are facing the gravest threat in 20 years
MUST BE AT LEAST 1 MINUTE TO MIDNIGHT ILL BET WORST ITS EVER BEEN SURELY
January 17th, 2007 at 11:27 amMaybe Robert can answer this…
If the troops have lost sight of their goal in Iraq, and are feeling demoralized, are some of the troops now at greater risk for committing war crimes, atrocities, or suicide?
January 17th, 2007 at 11:32 am“some soldiers say it’s getting more difficult to swing their legs over the edge of the cot each morning”
And for thousands of them, it’s because they have no legs left.
IMPEACH
January 17th, 2007 at 11:33 amINDICT
IMPRISON
Comment by Zooey
There you go, asking relavant and rational questions, which an answer you will not get.
I think the answer would be yes.
January 17th, 2007 at 11:39 amWho cares what the troops think? They knew when that signed up that this could happen. Sounds like a republican takling point to me. Bush doesn’t give a s&^% what these men and women think there is money to be made and he’s damn well going to make it.
January 17th, 2007 at 11:45 amPerhaps this is because the soldiers recall the words of Bertolt Brecht, when he wrote in his poem General, Your Tank Is a Powerful Vehicle:
General, man is very useful.
He can fly and he can kill.
But he has one defect:
He can think.
Or perhaps they recall the words of Lt. Watada, when he spoke at the Veterans for Peace convention last August in Seattle, and remembered the words of an American literary icon, when he said:
“Mark Twain once remarked, “Each man must for himself alone decide what is right and what is wrong, which course is patriotic and which isn’t. You cannot shirk this and be a man. To decide against your conviction is to be an unqualified traitor, both to yourself and to your country…’ By this each and every American soldier, marine, airman, and sailor is responsible for their choices and their actions. The freedom to choose is only one that we can deny ourselves.”
The lieutenant went on to point out that “The oath we take swears allegiance not to one man but to a document of principles and laws designed to protect the people. Enlisting in the military does not relinquish one’s right to seek the truth- neither does it excuse one from rational thought nor the ability to distinguish between right and wrong. ‘I was only following orders’ is never an excuse.”
These soldiers, along with Lt. Watada, are the military’s worst nightmare because they dare to challenge and to question and to think. Thankfully, more and more of them are realizing that this war/occupation has become, not a noble cause, but, instead, a lost cause. Soldiers- resist- and say NO to the war machine in Iraq.
January 17th, 2007 at 11:45 amThere you go, asking relavant and rational questions, which an answer you will not get.
If Robert sees the question, he’ll answer it!
I think the answer would be yes.
Comment by ForTruth
I think so, too. But Robert’s right in the middle of that sort of thing, so I want his take on it.
We need to get the troops out of there.
January 17th, 2007 at 11:48 amLeaders should not be fanatics of any flavor.
January 17th, 2007 at 11:51 amWinning is not in Iraq!
January 17th, 2007 at 12:06 pmwinning = $
January 17th, 2007 at 12:12 pmAw hell, Jake, losing = $
Just sayin’
January 17th, 2007 at 12:15 pmInstead of dwelling on the past we should look toward the future and steering this country in a better direction, not towards war. We should let our representatives know that we care about such issues as global poverty and the Millenium Goals one, of which is to eliminate global poverty by 2015. According to the Borgen Project only $19 billion is needed to feed the rest of the world for the year.
January 17th, 2007 at 12:22 pmI agree Marie2!
January 17th, 2007 at 12:30 pmwhy dont the troops support our troops!!
January 17th, 2007 at 12:30 pmmarie2 sez:
That’s all quite laudable, Marie2, but when you’re driving down the road, and your engine catches fire, you don’t worry about changing the oil, or rotating the tires. You pull over and put the damned fire out.
Before we can make any positive steps in this country, we first need to correct what’s wrong…namely, the cabal of murderous thieves that have hijacked our government. Chimpy, Cheney, and all their cohorts need to be impeached, removed from office, and subsequently tried for their criminal activities, either here, or in the Hague. Only when their hands are pried from the steering wheel can we start steering away from the cliff.
January 17th, 2007 at 12:31 pmMaybe Robert can answer this…
If the troops have lost sight of their goal in Iraq, and are feeling demoralized, are some of the troops now at greater risk for committing war crimes, atrocities, or suicide?
Comment by Zooey
Who dare wake me from my slumber??
Zooey, In answer to your question, I think yes for the most part. If a Soldier or Marine loses focus on the mission it can have tragic consequences, some of them intentional, and some not. If you “forget” the reason for the fight, it would be easy to “forget” the rules of the fight. And sometimes it boils down to just being pi$$ed off.
You can lose site that not every one is your enemy. Combat requires a certain amount of dehumanization of the enemy to begin with in order to keep your sanity. If you are demoralized, you can begin to dehumanize everyone, including yourself. Not only that, when you are demoralized, you can question your own self worth, lose you ability to cope with all that is happening around you, and harm yourself.
This is what leads to a lot of the tragic things we read in the news. Demoralization leads to apathy. Apathy leads to mistakes. Apathy also leads to blatant disregard for the rules.
That is why, I feel, it is so important that those against the “war in Iraq” voice their dissent as “hate the war, love the troops”.
The best way for the Administration to show that love it to bring them home. Second best is to have a clearly defined mission.
Currently, neither is happening.
January 17th, 2007 at 12:43 pmThank you, soldiers, for doing an honorable job in a dishonorable environment. Your sacrifices should be recognized by every American.
January 17th, 2007 at 12:54 pmAs your Commander in Chief cuts more veteran’s benefits before you return, remember that true Americans respect your duty. Politics do not belong in the military, but you all see first hand the mess that evolves when that is allowed.
Know that, unlike myself & other Viet Nam Vets, you will be welcomed home with honor & celebration.
Our apologies to you & yours for the extended / repeated tours of duty the politicians are putting you through.
When you return, keep in mind who put you over there and the lies that accompanied the mission. Tell you friends & family the truth. Believe in America, as this too, shall pass. Learn from our mistakes and make a commitment to never believe politicians about war again.
Tell me why I have not seen the democratic leader on any TV for over a year , who is he anyway, he spends more time on holiday than BUSH
January 17th, 2007 at 12:55 pmwell, you see, the troops, they just don’t see enough of what’s really going on in Iraq, on the ground, if you will……
….they spend all their time in fortified compounds and patrolling the streets and villages, and therefore, they’re really not the best judges of how things are going there…….
….if they could just get a handle on the big picture – if they just knew, overall, about the dramatic progress that’s been made, then I’m sure they’d agree with the P and the VP that this is just the right time for about 20000 more troops to get over there, and get this awesome victory the rest of the way into the bag……
January 17th, 2007 at 12:56 pmIs it possible that the troops are also vulnerable to the daily defeatist drumbeat coming from the unrealistic focus and expectations of today’s mainstream media and the overt divisions in our government? I believe that if WWII would have had the scrutiny of the war in Iraq, with the government openly split, the troops would have also been demoralized and the chances for success; limited.
January 17th, 2007 at 1:10 pm“some soldiers say it’s getting more difficult to swing their legs over the edge of the cot each morning.”
No they’re not, Lauren Frayer, the author of the article, said this. Did any of you actually read the article?
January 17th, 2007 at 1:26 pmUS accused of raid on Sudan embassy
Sudan has summoned the senior US diplomat in Khartoum after it said American troops raided the Sudanese embassy in Baghdad, violating diplomatic conventions, a foreign ministry spokesman has said.
January 17th, 2007 at 1:29 pmmichael sez:
Yes, michael, we did. Did you? Or did you just read far enough to try to cast aspersions upon the author?
January 17th, 2007 at 1:34 pm“As your Commander in Chief cuts more veteran’s benefits”
What benefits is he cutting? Be specific?
January 17th, 2007 at 1:35 pmSudan says U.S. troops raided its embassy in Iraq CNN
January 17th, 2007 at 1:41 pmAlrigtht Windup Merchant, we got the news.
January 17th, 2007 at 1:48 pm“Yes, michael, we did. Did you? Or did you just read far enough to try to cast aspersions upon the author?”
Yes I read the article, twice! Nowhere does she quote any soldier saying “whether the U.S. can win the war”. That’s her politically correct opinion.
January 17th, 2007 at 1:53 pmmichael sez:
Is this “specific” enough for you, michael?
January 17th, 2007 at 1:53 pmmichael sez:
Ooooh…twice. Did you actually comprehend it on the second time through, or will you need a third?
Reading comprehension, sadly, is no longer a valued skill among America’s youth. I blame the schools.
Let’s look at a few direct quotes from the article, shall we, michael?
Can you comprehend what’s being said here, michael, How is it possible to win, when you can’t even define victory?
Your assertion that the author is being deceitful merely because there isn’t a quote that reads verbatim“whether the U.S. can win the war†marks you as either abyssmally stupid or poisonously disingenuous. Which is it?
January 17th, 2007 at 2:06 pmThe best way for the Administration to show that love it to bring them home. Second best is to have a clearly defined mission.
Currently, neither is happening.
Comment by robert(hacker bob)
Thank you, Robert….er, Hacker Bob. Heh.
Well said.
January 17th, 2007 at 2:58 pm“As your Commander in Chief cuts more veteran’s benefitsâ€
What benefits is he cutting? Be specific?
Comment by michael — January 17, 2007 @ 1:35 pm
Hey, michael mcflaxseedoil! As a veteran of the Navy, as you proclaimed, you should really know this, shouldn’t you?
You were totally debunked by TripMaster Monkey!
January 17th, 2007 at 3:32 pmNow go join hands with bill/rachel bixby, and re-enlist…NOW!
“Can you comprehend what’s being said here, michael”
Yes I can and no where is anyone saying we can’t win!
“It’s hard to tell what’s right here anymore.â€
I agree with that statement but it doesn’t say we aren’t winning.
“There are a lot of reasons why we’re here, but they’re complex. This isn’t a war like they used to be, like in World War II when there was good and evil and the direction was clear.â€
What they are saying is that in prior wars the enemy wore uniforms in this one they don’t. Once again, no admission of not winning.
“I don’t want to rush to get it over with. The problem is, what’s a win here, in this a counterinsurgency fight?â€
Care to point out where he’s admitting that we are losing? Finally:
“I don’t think it’ll get any better. Once we leave, I think they’ll go back to killing each other. They’ve already started.â€
Talk about a lack of reading comprehension skills. Did you get yours in a public school?
January 17th, 2007 at 3:48 pmYes I can and no where is anyone saying we can’t win!
Comment by michael — January 17, 2007 @ 3:48 pm
wow, and here all this time I thought the title was Troops uncertain about success in Iraq
Boy, that word uncertain really defines not winning, huh, michael mcNavy?
….and explain again what you don’t understand about this article?
January 17th, 2007 at 4:01 pm….and explain again what you don’t understand about this article?
Comment by DRxJ
He didn’t read it.
January 17th, 2007 at 4:08 pmuh hello?
January 17th, 2007 at 5:03 pmmichael mcfly?
you still here?
“some troops say they’re asking themselves for the first time whether the U.S. can win the war ”
So tell me DRxJ where in the article did that get quoted to a particular person. Seeing as you learned reading comprehension skills in a public school, I’ll tell you. Nowhere! The word uncertain doesn’t mean losing but then again you are a democrat and are used to causing your country to lose wars as in 1975. All you know is “cut and run” as in 1975. Your party’s flag is solid white! And by the way zooey, I read it 3 times as I was trying to figure out how an article could be so misinterpreted.
January 17th, 2007 at 5:32 pmNow let’s address the link that tripmaster sent me PROVING beyond a shadow of a doubt that us mean Republicans are slashing veteran’s benefits. First of all the article was posted on a website called democratunderground! The reason it has taken me this long to respond is because I have been laughing all this time. You would have earned more credibility if it had come from air America or moveon.org! I don’t have the time to address the entire VA budget but let’s focus on one of the complaints in the article? It says that “W” is increasing co-pays from $7 – $15 for “near-poor” veterans. What the article DOESN’T tell you is that this applies to Priority 7 & Priority 8 veterans. Priority 7 & 8 are those veterans who are ‘not service connected’ meaning they probably have full time jobs in the private sector or with the government AND they are NOT disabled meaning they can work AND they make $24,000 or more a year! Do you dems love shooting yourselves in the foot? Do you not do any research before you hit that enter button?
January 17th, 2007 at 6:49 pmmichael sez:
Do let’s.
Do you have a point, michael? Are you trying to dispute the accuracy of the facts presented in the article? Or are you merely attempting to cast doubt upon the article by casting unfounded aspersions at the source?
Of course…it wouldn’t have anything to do with you trying to duck me, now would it?
Exactly as I thought…a vapid attempt to smear the source of the article, because you can’t dispute the actual facts. Pathetic.
Assuming this is true (you do have a link, right?), I fail to see your point. You asked for specifics on how benefits are being cut. I provided those specifics to you. And now, all you can say is, ‘well, they aren’t being cut that much…’???
What the hell is the matter with you, michael? These are our troops we are talking about here! They have made sacrifices you can’t even comprehend. Why do you hate our troops, michael?
Oh, that’s right…I forgot…when Repukes chant ’support the troops’, they’re actually saying ’support Chimpy’s disasterous foreign policy’. It’s got nothing to do with the actual human beings that fight, bleed, and die for your flawed ideologies, does it?
michael, you and your kind make my physically ill.
Still smarting over how I handed your ass to you regarding that Lauren Frayer article, aren’t you?
Go back to redstate, michael. You don’t have the chops to debate me.
January 17th, 2007 at 7:21 pm“Go back to redstate, michael. You don’t have the chops to debate me.”
You’re NOTHING! On my worse day you could’t stand up to me. Now let’s get back to your response?
“Assuming this is true (you do have a link, right?)”
Do a google search on veteran’s benefits and you will find a document called Department of Veterans Affairs, Budget Summaries. Go to page 31 & 32 and read for yourself. You may have to do a little more research like finding out what is meant by Priority 7 & 8. I know that this is probably something new for you but you might save yourself some embarrassment in the future if you do a little more of it. And if you review the accompaning charts you will also see that most of the areas in the budget are being increased. I don’t disagree that some of the budget is being cut but you dems make it sound like we are abandoning our vets.
“Why do you hate our troops, michael?”
Why do I hate the troops? It’s not me that accuses them of terrorizing women and children in the middle of the night. It’s not me that accuses them of torture for placing a woman’s panties on their head! It’s not me who objects to our government listening to phone calls from suspected overseas terrorist! It’s not me who reveals the locations of our secret prisons! It’s not me who objects to extracting information from them to save others soldiers lives! This is all being done by the party that has caused more harm to our war effort, the cut and run democrats!
“michael, you and your kind make my physically ill.”
Glad to hear that!
“Still smarting over how I handed your ass to you regarding that Lauren Frayer article, aren’t you? ”
You did? I went back and read all the posts and you did nothing of the sort but then again you probably feel that if you responded that makes you a winner. As a Great man says every night, we’ll let the viewers decide! By the way, you’re in luck. This post will fall off the front page sometime tonight and so new viewers won’t get the opportunity to see what a beating I gave you.
January 17th, 2007 at 8:02 pmmichael sez…well, let’s face it. He really doesn’t say anything.
Can’t provide a link, can’t dispute the facts I linked to, can’t really do anything but bluster about how you ‘gave me a beating’, when anyone capable of reading English can see the true score.
But that’s what the Repugs do best, isn’t it? Ignore reality.
I’ll say it again, michael. Go home. You haven’t got the chops. You’re not even close.
January 17th, 2007 at 8:33 pm“He really doesn’t say anything”
Interpretation? He cornered me!
“Can’t provide a link”
I told you where to find the info. Too lazy to do a google search? Obviously, if you knew how to debate you would have done that before you provided me with your link.
“can’t dispute the facts I linked to”
I provided irrefutable facts that dispelled the myths about the government cutting benefits by increasing copays for those veterans who can afford the increase.
“can’t really do anything but bluster about how you ‘gave me a beating”
I usually don’t pound my chest when I embarrass someone but you deserved it.
“when anyone capable of reading English can see the true score”
Which is? Come on now, cast the rhetoric aside and provide us with the “true score”?
“Go home. You haven’t got the chops”
Well I rarely provide links of articles to support my arguments because even on the right, articles tend to leave out information that might provide ammunition for my opponent. When I do provide a link to an article, it is one I feel confident about. One I have researched. You on the other hand provided me with a link to an article from a leftwing website that you did NO research on to see if you were leaving yourself open to scrutiny. A true sign of an amateur. So I haven’t the chops? I usually get comments like that from the left when they are silenced. Look at your most recent post. You can’t dispute anything I said. You didn’t even try. You probably never even heard of Priority 7 & Priority 8 veterans. So, it’s really unfortunate that this will fall off page one by tomorrow because I would have liked other liberals to see what they are up against when I challenge them. But I’ll be looking for you on other threads. You can COUNT on it!
January 17th, 2007 at 10:21 pmmichael sez:
‘Cornered me’? That’s rich. You ‘cornered me’ by admitting I was right? God, you’re stupid.
That’s good, considering that you started this whole thing by demanding specific details regarding the cutting of vet’s benefits. You want to dispute the facts I presented? Then it’s up to you to provide facts to back up your assertions. I’m not going to do your homework for you, dolt.
First, as I have already pointed out, you failed to back up your statements with any sort of evidence. Second, assuming you can eventually do the first, you still haven’t refuted anything I’ve said. Third, look really carefully at your sentence. You claim to ‘dispel the myths about the government cutting benefits’, and then go on to to say that the government is indeed cutting said benefits. Your statement is completely self-contradictory, notwithstanding your feeble and irrelevant argument that (in your opinion) the veterans whose benefits have been cut can afford the increased cost.
You really are dangerously stupid.
Well…I am definitely embarrassed for you…
The ‘true score’ is that I called you out on your disingenuous attempt to cast aspersions on Lauren Frayer’s article by saying she was being dishonest by saying that some troops say they’re asking themselves for the first time whether the U.S. can win the war, despite ample evidence of that sentiment in the actual quotes in the article.
In fact, allow me to address your post #37 at this time. Earlier, I merely judged it too stupid to waste my time on, but since you still seem to be laboring under the false impression that you’ve somehow proved your point, it looks like I’ll have to set you straight:
Neither I nor Lauren claimed that the soldiers said they ‘can’t win’. They did however, express doubt as to whether or not they could win, principally because they were no longer sure what ‘winning’ entails. See the difference now?
First of all, what the soldier is saying is a lot more complicated than the simple lack of uniforms. Second, you’re again being childishly simple, in equating ‘not winning’ with ‘losing’. Again, you fail to grasp the central issue: that simplistic terms like ‘winning’ and ‘losing’ have no meaning in a situation where the prerequisites for victory are undefined.
Again, that was never my argument. That’s merely your misinterpretation of my argument, due to your inability to grasp the complexities and ambiguities of the situation.
I really don’t know how to make it any clearer to you…if you don’t get it by now, you never will.
Now that that’s settled, let’s move on.
Are you for real??? You don’t provide corroboration for your assertions because they might assist your opponent? Well, I guess, I can’t blame you…after all, reality does have a well-known liberal bias.
Because you didn’t SAY anything, dolt.
Oh, don’t worry…they saw. DRxJ said:
I’ve received six emails from other users along basically the same lines…congratulating me and ridiculing you. Don’t worry, michael…they know exactly what they’re ‘up against’.
Glutton for punishment, aren’t you? Any time you feel up to it, Junior, I’ll be waiting.
January 17th, 2007 at 11:48 pm“They did however, express doubt as to whether or not they could win, principally because they were no longer sure what ‘winning’ entails. See the difference now”
2 soldier’s comments out of hundreds of thousands? As I’ve indicated, between the lines, in my prior posts is, you really need to develop a talent for actually “thinking” before you hit that enter button!
It’s late and I will deal with you in the a.m.
January 18th, 2007 at 12:28 am