Bush Trusts Patients To Make Their Own Health Care Decisions, Except When They’re Women
Bush Trusts Patients To Make Their Own Health Care Decisions, Except When They’re Women
In last night’s State of the Union address, President Bush acknowledged that patients and their doctors should have full control of their health care decisions:
[I]n all we do, we must remember that the best healthcare decisions are made not by government and insurance companies, but by patients and their doctors.
Despite his rhetoric, Bush signed into law the “Partial-Birth Abortion Ban Act of 2003,” which is the first federal statute to tell doctors what specific methods they may and may not use when providing legal medical services — regardless of the patient’s condition or the doctor’s opinion about the safest course of treatment.
At the signing ceremony in Nov. 2003, Bush justified his support of the ban by citing the opinion of Congress: “As Congress has found, the practice is widely regarded within the medical profession as unnecessary, not only cruel to the child, but harmful to the mother, and a violation of medical ethics.”
But the nation’s leading group of professionals providing health care for women, the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, disagrees. It opposes the law because the banned procedure is often the best option for women:
The intact variant of D&E offers significant safety advantages over the non-intact method, including a reduced risk of catastrophic hemorrhage and life-threatening infection. These safety advantages are widely recognized by experts in the field of women’s health, authoritative medical texts, peer-reviewed studies, and the nation’s leading medical schools.
In other words, women sometimes need the procedure in order to protect their health and future fertility.
Bush has had the Department of Justice defend the law all the way to the Supreme Court. A decision is expected from the Court by this June.
Evidently, the President believes that patients and doctors make the best health care decisions — except for when the patient is a woman.
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And quit whining about George Bush supposedly smirking.
You Demoncrats have the smirks of all the dead unborns to atone for.
You smirk the unborn and mock God the Almighty on a daily basis.
This man of light, George W Bush is merely smirking back at all you blasphemers and sinners because it is Gods will.
You are powerless to stop it.
There will be no more pending Presidential elections for America.
We are right where we need to be as a nation.
We are safely ensconced in Gods protection through a true believer in His word.
And that true believer is,
George W Bush.
We should be thanking our lucky stars that we have leaders left who believe in the words of the Lord God the Almighty.
If left in the hands of Demoncrats, as a nation, what do we have left to strive for?
January 24th, 2007 at 4:03 pmWe Stands for Women: It reads.
Was this slogan and sign developed by a negro?
January 24th, 2007 at 4:04 pmSomeone please explain this to me:
women sometimes need the procedure in order to protect their health and future fertility.
If abortion has no ill effects on a womans health or future fertility why would you need partial birth abortion to protect a womans health and future fertility.
As a side: If the fetus is not a life why is there pre-natial care for the health of the fetus. If the fetus is not a life then it does not need preventative medical treatment, right.
January 24th, 2007 at 4:08 pmGentlemen,
January 24th, 2007 at 4:10 pmLet’s pause and let the ladies have a go at this. I NEVER feel comfortable, as a man, deciding what’s best for women.
Ignore the troll.
January 24th, 2007 at 4:11 pmYeah, robert.
January 24th, 2007 at 4:11 pmbetter red than dead
Oh wow, yet another Bible thumper who has never actually read the book, and yet another “Patriot” who never quite got the whole point to the revolution. Tell me Bible boy, have you ever actually questioned your own beliefs?
January 24th, 2007 at 4:13 pm#3. That’s hilarious hacker bob. You do a great Colbertesque parody of ridiculous right wing views.
January 24th, 2007 at 4:14 pmYes- IT was on another thread, wreaking havoc. Starve it.
January 24th, 2007 at 4:16 pmAre you that ignorant and racist?
It says:
“W Stands for Womens Health”
You can read about it right on the WHite House web site in the story about it.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/08/20040817-10.html
Mrs. Bush’s Remarks at “W Stands for Women” Event in St. Louis, MO
Hilton St. Louis Frontenac Hotel
St. Louis, Missouri
3:00 P.M. CDT
Moron
January 24th, 2007 at 4:16 pmBetter Red then dead, I am sure he means communist, does a far better wacko right wing impression the hacker bob, no offense bob. But man he has the insane thing down pat.
January 24th, 2007 at 4:19 pm#11. Krazny, I seriously thought Better Red than Dead was a parody! My God.
January 24th, 2007 at 4:23 pmIn response to the first comment:
ROFLMFAO
Newsflash. God is Dead
January 24th, 2007 at 4:23 pmLet’s not forget Congress and Bush convening in an emergency session to pass a bill and sign it into Federal law for the specific purpose of putting the Federal Government between a brain-dead patient and her doctor – Terry Schiavo, whom Senator Doctor Frist pronounced lucid from watching a videotape.
January 24th, 2007 at 4:25 pmAll we are saying is fetus pate.
-GSD
January 24th, 2007 at 4:27 pmHe believes that each person should decide what is the best treatment. Killing and inocent baby is not the babies choice, nor is it in there best interest. So, your arguement fails.
January 24th, 2007 at 4:28 pmWhat baby, Roger? A baby as in hot girl/man? As in a tender way of expression? As in a 2 y/o individual?
January 24th, 2007 at 4:33 pmIf left in the hands of Demoncrats, as a nation, what do we have left to strive for?
Comment by better red than dead
Geez, where to start? How about striving for peace, a livable minimum wage, lower taxes for the middle class, an educational system, better healthcare, a sane administration, a united population, allies who like and appreciate us, less oil dependence, more secure borders, a fairer tax code, less religous fanatics (you), better housing, honest debates, etc….Are those things worth striving for? I believe they are.
January 24th, 2007 at 4:34 pm#6,Yeah, robert.
Comment by Juan C
Whatever, you lost me there Juan C. #3 was a serious post.
If there are no ill effects caused by abortion, then the time of abortion should be irrelivant. Partial birth should be no more benificial than it would be in the first trimester. Unless, abortions earlier in the pregnancy the health risks are greater than we have been led to believe.
Also, fo rthose that do not see the fetus as a life. Does that mean that the pregnant mother should not recieve pre-natial care for the fetus? Wouldn’t that be like giving medical care to a corps?
Then you have the whole Scott Peterson thing. If the fetus is not a life, how can he be charged with 2 murders? If it is legal to charge him with 2 murders, would it also not be legal to charge an abortion doctor with murder for every procedure?
I am not trolling, I am asking serious questions.
January 24th, 2007 at 4:34 pmOften the expression used when people die is “I’m going home”. Why do you suppose that is unless we are indeed returning to a place from whence we came? Could it be that LIFE IS ETERNAL, and there really is no birth or death?
January 24th, 2007 at 4:35 pmSome would say that our human ancestors go back 6 million years. That subject is very controversial! However, the oldest known examples of man, as we are today, dates back 200,000 years. Do you think Christ would say the people that lived for those 200,000 years are burning in some eternal hell because they didn’t hear His word?
Roger_Roger
Except you have the right to self defence. If someone is going to hurt you badly, perhaps causing permanent damage or even death you have the right to kill that person.
Thus, if you are going to treat a fetus as being a living human being, then abortion should be legal on the grounds of self-defence.
January 24th, 2007 at 4:36 pmA fetus does not acquire a spirit or soul until shortly before birth.
January 24th, 2007 at 4:37 pm#1-better red than dead actually believes there is a “God.” Isn’t that sooooo cute. He/she/it sound a lot like the patients I have to commit to the mental health hospital for psychiatric treatment when they start rambling about “God,” sinners, blasphemers, etc. It’s called hyperreligiosity and it is a delusion of granduer, which is a symptom of psychosis. If I had to assess better red than dead, he/she/it would have a one way ticket to the looney bin.
Comment by better red than dead — January 24, 2007 @ 4:03 pm
BTW-How can the dead unborn smirk?
January 24th, 2007 at 4:38 pmI am not trolling, I am asking serious questions.
Comment by hacker bob
Fair enough Bob. The answer to your question is simple: Any discussion or decision of a womans health issue belongs to the woman and her healthcare provider. Period. End of story.
January 24th, 2007 at 4:38 pm“Better red than dead”. Funny, this is what we, back in communist Poland, used to say as an excuse when we pretended to toe the party line…
January 24th, 2007 at 4:39 pmA fetus does not acquire a spirit or soul until shortly before birth.
Comment by Juizzee
If you want to be religious about it, most religions , including the bible, state the soul enters at birth when the first breath is taken, not before birth.
January 24th, 2007 at 4:41 pm#19 hacker bob – you really have no idea what you’re talking about.
No one is saying that a late term partial birth abortion is safer than an first-trimester abortion – but a partial birth abortion may be preferable to forced childbirth.
Let’s look at one of the common reasons for a late term abortion – a fetus that is dead or not viable. Partial birth abortions have been used on dead fetuses in order to extract an intact corpse, so the doctors can tell the parents the cause of the fatal birth defect.
Banning the procedure isn’t going to affect these kids – the most you’ll accomplish is forcing the mother to bring a dead or dying child to term. Having a dead fetus rotting away inside you is a great way to catch sepsis.
Scott Peterson was convicted of two murders because the fetus was eight months along, and viable. There is already legislation to protect viable fetuses.
Fundamentally, bob, you’re talking out of your fundament.
January 24th, 2007 at 4:44 pm#21 I fully agree. Self defense of a womens right is a valid reason for abortion. Then again, Self Defense is the only reason for murder. I am guessing most abortions are not in self defense of the women’s life however.
January 24th, 2007 at 4:45 pmIf you want to be religious about it, most religions , including the bible, state the soul enters at birth when the first breath is taken, not before birth.
Comment by Wayne
My Chinese herbalist states that souls search for babies ready to be born and then enter in order to facilitate the birth (or spur the birthing process). My herbalist is quite wise about these kind of things.
January 24th, 2007 at 4:47 pmMust have been a black ” poster child ” from east St. Louis who they let come up with that sign slogan.
We Stands for Women.
We democrats, we stands for women and norities.
hah. You pathetic fools taking advantage of minorities again to try to bolster you base with promises of more free cheese and overall government welfare for all those who vote for us.
None of these programs come from your heart. It is all about attaining votes.
Picture this:
Down in New Orleans in the flood ravaged wards, a FAT black woman stands up on the roof of a flooded minivan with a sign that reads:
” We Stands for Women. ”
Hilarious and yet sad at the same time that this country has sunk this low at the hands of you democrats.
January 24th, 2007 at 4:48 pmIf you want to be religious about it, most religions , including the bible, state the soul enters at birth when the first breath is taken, not before birth.
Comment by Wayne
Please do not use the bible as your modern day textbook fopr the instructions on how to kill Gods children.
Although I must say I expected no less from you in this regard.
January 24th, 2007 at 4:49 pmThe differing opinions about when “life” begins vs. when the “soul enters the body” etc. just lends further proof that religion is very subjective, very personal, and deserves NO place whatsoever in a secular government.
January 24th, 2007 at 4:52 pmKeep religion out of politics, schools and government period.
Debate the science if you will (which I think science will win hands down) but religion should not be a factor.
Roger_Roger
However, self defence covers more then just a certain risk to your life. You can act in self defence on the risk of physical harm, and labour according to all reports, is a very painful process.
January 24th, 2007 at 4:53 pmYeah medical decisions are between a woman and her doctor UNTIL they determine a procedure that Bushie doesn’t approve.
January 24th, 2007 at 4:54 pmThen she and her body become property of the state and Bush&Co will decide
Must have been a black †poster child †from east St. Louis who they let come up with that sign slogan.
Down in New Orleans in the flood ravaged wards, a FAT black woman stands up on the roof of a flooded minivan
Comment by rachel — January 24, 2007 @ 4:48 pm
Because of idiotic, bigoted responses like this, I now propose operation IGNORE
January 24th, 2007 at 4:55 pm(c’mon rach, but me on the damn list!)
My readings indicate that Crom, the gloomy, swarthy god of the Cimmerians breathes life into each infant as it is born. He grants each the vitality to slay its enemies, and the courage to live life to the fullest each moment.
January 24th, 2007 at 4:56 pmThat’s it. Calling upon Crom for help is similar to cursing, as he doesn’t listen, and even regards a cry for help as the pitiful mewling of weaklings.
I really don’t think that kind of dubbayew stands for women. But I’m not sure since I’m not a woman.
January 24th, 2007 at 4:57 pmat the hands of the democrats? Katrina happened under the fists of the neoconservatives masquerading as Republicans…they ran the house, the senate, the executive branch, and I think Alito was confirmed to push the swing over on the SCOTUS to.
So, tell me again who was driving?? You tell me how the neoconmen have made any lives better? They want to kill so many people, but they can’t even fight off the third-world Iraqi insurgents? Please.
January 24th, 2007 at 5:00 pmbetter red than dead,
The slogan does not contain the word WE. it is a W with a flag attached, just like the logo that Bush stole from one of his republican supporters. Everytime you post your incorrect slogan, you show your ignorance, but the funniest part is that “W Stands for Women” is your blessed leaders wifes slogan. So, everytime you make fun of it, you are making fun of Laura Bush. Idiot.
January 24th, 2007 at 5:02 pmit just occurred to me – maybe the better red troll is color blind…
if color blindness prevents one from seeing red and green, this poor troll does not see the red stripe flag icon and thinks it’s a stylized “E”…
poor thing…
NOW – IGNORE IT… please…
January 24th, 2007 at 5:07 pmMy readings indicate that Crom, the gloomy, swarthy god of the Cimmerians breathes life into each infant as it is born. He grants each the vitality to slay its enemies, and the courage to live life to the fullest each moment.
That’s it. Calling upon Crom for help is similar to cursing, as he doesn’t listen, and even regards a cry for help as the pitiful mewling of weaklings.
Comment by RUCerious
That’s funny. But, Taoist thought does not require a personal god or even Crom, the gloomy. I’m not trying to convert anybody (seriously), but sometimes it is a pity how all spiritual/religious ideas are grouped together and ridiculed as silly superstition.
January 24th, 2007 at 5:16 pmOkay katy.
January 24th, 2007 at 5:16 pmhacker bob/robert – from a link you posted recently:
SAFETY OF ABORTION
The risk of abortion complications is minimal; fewer than 0.3% of abortion patients experience a complication that requires hospitalization.[24]
January 24th, 2007 at 5:18 pmAbortions performed in the first trimester pose virtually no long-term risk of such problems as infertility, ectopic pregnancy, spontaneous abortion (miscarriage) or congenital malformation (birth defect), and little or no risk of preterm or low-birth-weight deliveries. [25]
Exhaustive reviews by panels convened by the U.S. and British governments have concluded that there is no association between abortion and breast cancer. There is also no indication that abortion is a risk factor for other types of cancer.[26]
In repeated studies since the early 1980s, leading experts have concluded that abortion does not pose a hazard to women’s mental health.[27]
The risk of death associated with abortion increases with the length of pregnancy, from one death for every one million abortions at or before eight weeks to one per 29,000 at 16–20 weeks—and one per 11,000 at 21 or more weeks.[28]
The risk of death associated with childbirth is about 12 times as high as that associated with abortion.[29]
[...]
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/fb_induced_abortion.html
.
Since sensitive bible thumpers do not like one to use the bible to debunk their nonsense, how about our nation’s founders:
“I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature.”
Thomas Jefferson
“Religions are all alike – founded upon fables and mythologies.”
Thomas Jefferson
“Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise.”
James Madison
“The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity.”
John Adams
“The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.”
John Adams
January 24th, 2007 at 5:24 pmthanks, spudge boy…
January 24th, 2007 at 5:25 pmi do enjoy the legitimate arguments, but the school yard taunts get
real old real quick…
bluedog – i need some founders quotes about why it’s important to question and be skeptical of gov. and leaders… got a link or 2?
January 24th, 2007 at 5:27 pmYes you guys listen to moderator katy and let me talk.
Here is what you democrats have left as a party.
A failed party and no leadership.
A God that you have willfully angered and shunned.
A belief that to each his/her own is good for the world, society be damned.
A hapless bunch of misfitting cretans in a modern day world that is lost and just cannot find itself.
A blasphemous crowd that attempts to make up for its own shortfalls by proclaiming this or that inanimate thing is the NEW God to be followed and worshipped.
( Idol Worship )
Your own party and the world at large has moved toward light and freedom in the twinkling of an eye, while you are still left here standing and still wondering
” what happened ” ?
A pandering leadership who has their own hidden agenda via the CFR and PNAC. Dont believe me? Do the research. You will be amazed. Start with CFR members and work through to PNAC. Very telling indeed.
A constituency who mindlessly and blindly follows their party leadership and agrees with every recommendation and stance on any given subject. No matter how shortsided or foolhardy.
A party that believes that just sitting down and talking with terrorists might change the way they feel towards us as a people.
A party that is complicit in the murder of millions of innocent Japanes under Japanese nuclear attacks in WW2. Republicans have never used a nuclear device on anyone.
A party that is complicit in the unlawful detaining of thousands of Japanese in concentration camps right here on American soil in WW2. Not a Republican.
A party that is complicit in the unlawful detaining of thousands of German immigrants in concentration camps right here on American soil during WW2. Not a Republican.
A party that shifts with the slightest breeze on any given issue, no matter if it is of national security concern or not.
A party that gets alot of its funding from people like George Soros. George Soros is one of the biggest drug smugglers and money launderers this world has ever known.
Just google- Clinton Soros Mena Arkansas -it is all there if you will only look.
A reputation that it takes the killing of innocent unborns to make our party happy. This scarlet yoke shall adorn your pitiful necks forever and all eternity, as well it should.
January 24th, 2007 at 5:32 pmYes you guys pipe down and listen to moderator katy and let me talk too.
Especially you ” schoolyard ” potato boy.
Here is what you democrats have left as a party.
A failed party and no leadership.
A God that you have willfully angered and shunned.
A belief that to each his/her own is good for the world, society be damned.
A hapless bunch of misfitting cretans in a modern day world that is lost and just cannot find itself.
A blasphemous crowd that attempts to make up for its own shortfalls by proclaiming this or that inanimate thing is the NEW God to be followed and worshipped.
( Idol Worship )
Your own party and the world at large has moved toward light and freedom in the twinkling of an eye, while you are still left here standing and still wondering
” what happened ” ?
A pandering leadership who has their own hidden agenda via the CFR and PNAC. Dont believe me? Do the research. You will be amazed. Start with CFR members and work through to PNAC. Very telling indeed.
A constituency who mindlessly and blindly follows their party leadership and agrees with every recommendation and stance on any given subject. No matter how shortsided or foolhardy.
A party that believes that just sitting down and talking with terrorists might change the way they feel towards us as a people.
A party that is complicit in the murder of millions of innocent Japanes under Japanese nuclear attacks in WW2. Republicans have never used a nuclear device on anyone.
A party that is complicit in the unlawful detaining of thousands of Japanese in concentration camps right here on American soil in WW2. Not a Republican.
A party that is complicit in the unlawful detaining of thousands of German immigrants in concentration camps right here on American soil during WW2. Not a Republican.
A party that shifts with the slightest breeze on any given issue, no matter if it is of national security concern or not.
A party that gets alot of its funding from people like George Soros. George Soros is one of the biggest drug smugglers and money launderers this world has ever known.
Just google- Clinton Soros Mena Arkansas -it is all there if you will only look.
A reputation that it takes the killing of innocent unborns to make our party happy. This scarlet yoke shall adorn your pitiful necks forever and all eternity, as well it should.
January 24th, 2007 at 5:35 pmgeorgia red stater stamps her feet, teeth clenched, little hands bundled into tiny fists, red faced, tears in her eyes and she just can’t seem to make us understand “God’s Truth.” Poor little thing. She’s having a bad day.
Katy, sorry, but I don’t have a link. Those came from an old book.
January 24th, 2007 at 5:37 pmHmmmm, I see TP is still plagued by psychiatric patients who keep forgetting to take the blue pill.
I’ve never heard the ‘W is for Women’ before. Wastrel, wankster, wingnut, wacko, wiener, war-mongerer, wetard, wussie and wrong yes, but never women.
January 24th, 2007 at 5:53 pmFair enough Bob. The answer to your question is simple: Any discussion or decision of a womans health issue belongs to the woman and her healthcare provider. Period. End of story.
Comment by Tom
That is not an answer, that is a deflection.
January 24th, 2007 at 5:54 pmMy Chinese herbalist states that souls search for babies ready to be born and then enter in order to facilitate the birth (or spur the birthing process). My herbalist is quite wise about these kind of things.
Comment by Juizzee
Souls search for babies ready to be born!!!! Are you f*cking serious?
January 24th, 2007 at 6:01 pmThis scarlet yoke shall adorn your pitiful necks forever and all eternity, as well it should.
Comment by georgia red stater
Ooh, Ooh, can my yoke be blue. I love the color blue. Ask your god is that alright:D
January 24th, 2007 at 6:04 pmScott Peterson was convicted of two murders because the fetus was eight months along, and viable. There is already legislation to protect viable fetuses.
Fundamentally, bob, you’re talking out of your fundament.
Comment by FFY
Partial birth abortions can be performed up until 38 weeks, or birth.
But, if partial birth abortion were legaly allowed, would it stipulate that ONLY in a case that was an eminant threat to the Host’s (can’t call her a mother yet, as it is not a baby) health or a case where the fetus was dead?
I can understand partial birth abortion in those cases, but not once the fetus is viable (around 6 months)
I am keeping the religous arguement out of this. Deal in the known facts.
At 6 months, the fetus has arms, legs, a beating heart. Lungs and brain are not fully developed, but they are developed enough that the fetus has a good chance of survival out side of the womb.
So, when is the “medical procedure” equal to murder?
January 24th, 2007 at 6:07 pmthe Host’s (can’t call her a mother yet, as it is not a baby)
Comment by hacker bob — January 24, 2007 @ 6:07 pm
YOU CAN CALL HER A WOMAN.
January 24th, 2007 at 6:17 pmhacker bob: “That is not an answer, that is a deflection. ”
Since you are the one who wants abortion to be illegal, here are some questions for you to answer or deflect:
How will government force a woman to carry a baby to term against her will? Will there be fenced “pregnancy camps” or something?
Will Doctors be charged with murder and imprisoned if they carry out the procedure? How about women?
Who will take care of the woman’s baby if she is forced to have it, and still doesn’t want it, the state?
Will there be a new branch of the justice department charged with forcing women to carry babies to term against their will?
Doesn’t that sound like “big government” to you? I thought guys like you didn’t like big government.
January 24th, 2007 at 6:17 pmPersonally, I never wear a yoke. I stick to ties or open collar.
January 24th, 2007 at 6:19 pmdo you know how the google works? …here’s one:
My Late-Term Abortion
January 24th, 2007 at 6:19 pmPresident Bush’s attempt to ban partial-birth abortions threatens all late-term procedures. But in my case, everyone said it was the right thing to do — even my Catholic father and Republican father-in-law.
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2004/01/25/my_late_term_abortion/
.
January 24th, 2007 at 6:21 pmLate-Term Abortion Saved These Women’s Lives
http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/2046/context/archive
.
[...](can’t call her a mother yet, as it is not a baby)
Comment by hacker bob — January 24, 2007 @ 6:07 pm
How about you call her an expecting mother, or a pregnant woman, as they have always been called?
Don’t tell me you -like other right-wingers- also have a problem describing a woman’s bodily functions.
I can understand partial birth abortion in those cases, but not once the fetus is viable (around 6 months)
First, “partial birth abortion” is not a medical term. It is a legal term, adopted to make an appeal to emotions.
Second, Pres Bush already signed the Partial Birth Abortion Ban Act, which makes second and third trimester abortions illegal. So I am not sure what you are arguing here.
I am keeping the religous arguement out of this. Deal in the known facts.
What facts would those be? That the mother receives “pre-natal care for the fetus”? All pregnant women get (or should get) prenatal care, regardless of whether or not they decide to carry the pregnancy to term since all pregnancies have the potential to threaten a woman’s health. You don’t have any children, do you?
What a bizarre line of reasoning.
So, when is the “medical procedure†equal to murder?
Your question begs the question: Why would abortion be equal to murder at any point at all?
January 24th, 2007 at 6:26 pmSince you are the one who wants abortion to be illegal, here are some questions for you to answer or deflect:
Did I ever say that I wanted abortion illegal?
How will government force a woman to carry a baby to term against her will? Will there be fenced “pregnancy camps†or something?
Did I say I wanted the government to force a woman to carry the baby to term? No I did not. I asked at what point is a “medical procedure” becomes murder. But, if abortions are not as easy to get, maybe people will rethink their behavior. Act responsabily BEFORE concepion, not after.
Will Doctors be charged with murder and imprisoned if they carry out the procedure? How about women?
It the procedure is illegal, yes, to both.
Who will take care of the woman’s baby if she is forced to have it, and still doesn’t want it, the state?
What about the millions of couples tha twould love to adopt a baby?
Will there be a new branch of the justice department charged with forcing women to carry babies to term against their will?
They are called the police, if it were illegal. Just like any other crime.
Doesn’t that sound like “big government†to you? I thought guys like you didn’t like big government.
Comment by Bluedog49
I didn’t say it should be illegal, first of all. Second, if it is an illegal procedure, we have a criminal justice system for that.
I would like to thank you for putting words in my mouth.
January 24th, 2007 at 6:27 pmHere’s the thing: hacker bob and people like him have been given a free ride for too long. If they want the government involved, it’s up to them to explain how this works. Bob, I’m still waiting for your answer or deflection. How will this world of yours work?
January 24th, 2007 at 6:29 pmHacker bob begins to equivocate: “I didn’t say it should be illegal…”
Bob, you’re implying that it’s murder. Murder is illegal. Again, how does government force a woman to carry a baby to term? Is this a legitimate role for government — to force a woman to have a baby against her will?
January 24th, 2007 at 6:31 pmhacker bob: “They are called the police, if it were illegal. Just like any other crime.”
OK, so you want the police to make sure women carry babies to term against their will. How will that work? I mean, police departments already have a lot on their plates.
January 24th, 2007 at 6:34 pmDon’t tell me you -like other right-wingers- also have a problem describing a woman’s bodily functions.
No, I have no problem at all discussing a womans bodily function. I am deliberately sticking to generic terms as to not be accused of rhetoric or, as you called it, right-wing terms? I am asking for legitimate opinions, which no one will answer. A simple question:
At what point do you concider a fetus a baby and when is aborting it murder?
What facts would those be? That the mother receives “pre-natal care for the fetus� All pregnant women get (or should get) prenatal care, regardless of whether or not they decide to carry the pregnancy to term since all pregnancies have the potential to threaten a woman’s health. You don’t have any children, do you?
Actually, I have 3 children. My point was, if you do not think it is a life you must not think it meeds medical treatment.
So, when is the “medical procedure†equal to murder?
Your question begs the question: Why would abortion be equal to murder at any point at all?
So, you would be OK with abortion up until the 38th week?
Sorry, but in the case of a viable fetus, if you can not decide in the first trimester to abort it, you should not be taking part in the acts that create it.
January 24th, 2007 at 6:37 pmHacker bob, if a mother is charged with murder and put in prison, but already has other children, will her children be taken away from her and put into foster care?
If a doctor is put in prison, will the government make sure his other customers have a doctor to go to?
January 24th, 2007 at 6:39 pmhacker bob, you’re using the word “should” a great deal. In other words, your not dealing with absolutes. You said you were only dealing with facts. So please explain how these new laws and powers we would grant to government work in the real world. If a woman has had an abortion, but has other children, will the state take her away from her children and put her in jail?
January 24th, 2007 at 6:41 pmHacker bob begins to equivocate: “I didn’t say it should be illegal…â€
Bob, you’re implying that it’s murder. Murder is illegal. Again, how does government force a woman to carry a baby to term? Is this a legitimate role for government — to force a woman to have a baby against her will?
Comment by Bluedog49
No, I am asking the question “when is it murder?”
hacker bob: “They are called the police, if it were illegal. Just like any other crime.â€
OK, so you want the police to make sure women carry babies to term against their will. How will that work? I mean, police departments already have a lot on their plates.
Comment by Bluedog49
If a crime is committed, do you call the dog catcher to report it? No, you call the police. Do the police sit ouside of you house and wait for it to be burglarized? No. When you report it, they investigate it. If their investigation reveals that a crime has been comitted, then they make the appropriate arrests or what ever.
January 24th, 2007 at 6:43 pmalso, the proper medical term is
“Intact dilation and extraction”
look it up…
thing is – it comes down to onle one thing:
the decision between the woman and the doctor…
can’t ever know till you face it…
January 24th, 2007 at 6:44 pmHacker bob, if a mother is charged with murder and put in prison, but already has other children, will her children be taken away from her and put into foster care?
Ever heard of Fathers or family? There is a concept for ya’
If a doctor is put in prison, will the government make sure his other customers have a doctor to go to?
If a doctor goes to jail now for something illegal, does the government make sure there is a doctor for his other customers?
If a woman has had an abortion, but has other children, will the state take her away from her children and put her in jail?
What happens now when a woman goes to jail and already has children. No need to change the rules.
January 24th, 2007 at 6:46 pmhacker bob: “If their investigation reveals that a crime has been comitted, then they make the appropriate arrests or what ever.”
So if a police investigation determines that a woman has had an abortion, she is arrested and taken to jail? OK, what if she has other children? Are they now the responsibility of the state? And, isn’t the most effective law enforcement prevention of crime? If police are called because a woman is planning to have an abortion, will they arrest her and force her to have the baby in prison?
January 24th, 2007 at 6:47 pmthing is – it comes down to onle one thing:
the decision between the woman and the doctor…
Unless she is married, then it also includes the man (Father)
January 24th, 2007 at 6:47 pmSo what you’re arguing for is a society where a single woman with children might decide she cannot afford or take care of one more, and the result is the government comes and takes away the children she DOES have and throws her in jail. Family values? And what about those fathers. If you’re going to throw a woman in jail for aborting, is the father an accessory if he agrees with his mate? Accessory is also a crime. Will you have the police take both the father and the mother away?
January 24th, 2007 at 6:50 pmAt what point do you concider a fetus a baby and when is aborting it murder?
Comment by hacker bob — January 24, 2007 @ 6:37 pm
A fetus is not a baby, and a baby is not a fetus. A baby is after birth, a fetus is up until birth.
It’s always been that way. And medically, that is the way it is. Unless you choose not to use standard, agreed-upon scientific terminology.
But then you wouldn’t be arguing about medicine or medical procedures but about your personal opinion -which I feel is where you are trying to go.
My point was, if you do not think it is a life you must not think it meeds medical treatment.
::rolling my eyes::
A pregnant woman needs special care, Bob. As a father and a husband, you should know that -have you ever heard of ectopic pregnancies? Drop this nonsense.
This is probably one of the most asinine arguments I have heard in a long time.
So, you would be OK with abortion up until the 38th week?
Personally, yes. It makes me a bit queasy, but I am to about to tell women what to do with their bodies.
You should try to stop being such a control freak, Bob.
Sorry, but in the case of a viable fetus, if you can not decide in the first trimester to abort it, you should not be taking part in the acts that create it.
This argument is more reasonable than the previous stuff which make you sound fit for the asylum.
Some late-term abortions are done because deformities are detected in the fetus, the parents don’t want their minor daughter to be a mother, the woman is abandoned by the spouse/boyfriend and will not be able to carry the pregnancy to term, etc.
It is not always sheer irresponsibility, Bob. You should give women more credit than that.
January 24th, 2007 at 6:52 pmKaty: “can’t ever know till you face it…”
So true!
“God forbid you ever wake up and have to choose.
Then you really know just what it’s like to have the blues.”
January 24th, 2007 at 6:53 pmI am asking the question “when is it murder?â€
Comment by hacker bob — January 24, 2007 @ 6:43 pm
Abortion is not murder. Just like pulling the plug on a patient whose doctors have determined it is futile to continue care for is not murder in Texas either.
You can stop asking now…
January 24th, 2007 at 6:56 pmLyrics go like this bluedog
God forbid you ever had to walk a mile in her shoes
‘Cause then you really might know what it’s like to have to choose
good song, to bad the rest of his stuff never stacked up.
January 24th, 2007 at 6:57 pmHacker bob, if you don’t like abortions, you should be doing all you can to fix poverty. Abortion rates follow poverty rates. Abortions declined every year under Clinton as the poverty rate declined every year. I assume you are a republican. Your party’s policies create more abortions. In fact, your party’s leaders worked to protect a system of forced sex trade and forced abortions in the Northern Marianas for years.
January 24th, 2007 at 6:57 pmThank you Krazny. I knew I didn’t have it right. Great song. That song and “Dear Mr. President” by Pink are two of the most heartbreaking protest songs I’ve heard in recent years. I tell my boomer friends that good people are still writing good songs – they just don’t get on the radio anymore.
January 24th, 2007 at 7:02 pmHe got everything wrong. The best healthcare decisions are made by individuals in partnership with their nurses.
Why?
Because nurses are the healthcare providers educated to empower patients, to assist them in managing and living with health problems, and because they are charged ethically with serving as patients’ advocates.
Physicians aim at diagnosing and treating illness, disease and injury.
Nurses aim at supporting patients to attain, maintain and regain health or to achieve a peaceful death.
It’s time to take off the cloak of invisibility of the nursing profession – because keeping nurses invisible is hazardous to our health.
January 24th, 2007 at 7:03 pmYOU CAN CALL HER A WOMAN.
Comment by katy
Yes.
It is not always sheer irresponsibility, Bob. You should give women more credit than that.
Comment by Gregor Samsa
Trust women.
January 24th, 2007 at 7:03 pmHere’s what I think the righties have to try and get through their thick skulls: nobody in their right mind likes abortions. The decision to have an abortion is a painful, gut-wrenching decision for everyone involved. I have never met anyone who is “pro-abortion.” What I don’t want is the government forcing women to have babies against their will. That sounds like fascism to me.
January 24th, 2007 at 7:13 pmWhere are all of these folks willing/able to “adopt” the child brought to term? At present there are so many children in foster/state care awaiting families. Why aren’t all of these parents (who “can’t have children”/’would love to adopt a child”) adopting these children NOW?
January 24th, 2007 at 7:19 pmA woman should not be made to deliver a child for someone else, unless it is HER choice.
Choice…choice..
women are capable…
of making choices.
women are capable…
of making choices.
Comment by Choose to Choose
With a mans input yes. Left to their own devices? Definitely not.
Women as a species are generally dingy and far flung.
That is why God created Adam. To even your keel out.
January 24th, 2007 at 7:24 pmYes, and what about those famous “snowflake babies?” Why aren’t conservatives lining up for those blastocysts the fertility clinics are going to flush down the toilet?
January 24th, 2007 at 7:26 pmOld Rugged Cross, here’s the words to another song I like by a fellow called Frank Zappa:
“Foolish rules of ancient date,
Designed to make you all feel great,
While you bend, fold and mutilate
Those unbelievers in the neighboring state.”
And, since we’re talking about Adam, you tell us: when and how did Adam become alive. Wasn’t it when he was given “first breath?”
January 24th, 2007 at 7:28 pmGod created Adam first dumbass. God didn’t even know that the stupid man would get lonely, until later.
I thought God was omnipotent. If he is, why didn’t he know that man would get lonely ahead of time?
Sorry katy, the sheer stupidity compells me.
January 24th, 2007 at 7:33 pmThat is why God created Adam.
Comment by Old Rugged Cross — January 24, 2007 @ 7:24 pm
A girlfriend of mine used to say: “There is a reason why god created a man before creating a woman -even he has to tinker and learn from his mistakes.”
I still have no comeback for that one…
January 24th, 2007 at 7:34 pmThis needs to be my last post of the night as I have things to do, so I will ansewr a few of the posts I have read so far. Please forgive me if I do not credit the commentors individually.
So if a police investigation determines that a woman has had an abortion, she is arrested and taken to jail? OK, what if she has other children? Are they now the responsibility of the state?
What about the father and/or family members? You never address that. Also remember, just because someone comitts a crime does not mean they serve jail time.
It is not always sheer irresponsibility, Bob. You should give women more credit than that.
No, it is not always irresponsibility, that is why abortion on demand and medically necessay abortions are two different things. And not it is not a control freak thing. If it were, I would say all abortions need to be illegal no matter the reason.
Bluedog. poverty does not create abortions. Sex does.
women are capable…
of making choices.
And in cases where they CHOOSE to be irresponsable, they can choose to take care of things sooner rather than later. There is no need for abortion on demand at 38 weeks.
I am not advocating that abortion itself be illegal. I personally feel that partial birth abortion in cases that are not medically necessary are wrong. Again, that is my personal opinion as a father of 3 children.
January 24th, 2007 at 7:35 pmhacker bob: “Bluedog. poverty does not create abortions. Sex does.”
I often wonder what it’s like to go through life with a simple-minded world view without understanding its complexities. In some ways, it must be kind of nice.
January 24th, 2007 at 7:42 pmHey bob, just thought you should know this: just because you THINK there is no need for something doesn’t mean there’s no need for something.
January 24th, 2007 at 7:44 pmFor some reason I thought that Think Progress championed social justice. That means protecting the rights of the disadvantaged, underprivileged and vulnerable in our society.
I see a contradictory message here.
The same arguments regarding control of one’s body and one’s possessions were debated 150 years ago. Except the debate was about slavery, not abortion. Proponents of choice in slavery argued that it should be the decision of white slave owners, not the government, whether their black slaves qualified as persons. The government was in no position to legislate the morality of slave ownership. It was best decided individually by slave owners.
Letting the public choose whether it’s okay to kill a fetus is a lot like leaving the choice whether to own black slaves up to 19th century white tobacco farmers.
If your a priori assumption is that blacks are not human beings, you’ll see no problem with that. Similarly, you’d feel the same way about abortion if your assumption is that they are not human beings.
On the other hand, if you believe in human rights, you’d see an obvious problem.
Let’s not come up with red herring arguments. The partial birth abortion ban is not a matter of a mother’s health and future fertility. It’s a question of the circumstances under which it’s appropriate for a mother to end her child’s life. Is-ought problems such as these cannot be answered by science, as the OB/GYN study is attempting to do.
January 24th, 2007 at 7:59 pmIt’s time to take off the cloak of invisibility of the nursing profession – because keeping nurses invisible is hazardous to our health.
Comment by N=1 — January 24, 2007 @ 7:03 pm
YES !!! thank you for that… repeat often…
January 24th, 2007 at 8:01 pmSorry katy, the sheer stupidity compells me.
Comment by Spudge_Boy — January 24, 2007 @ 7:33 pm
L O L … just keep it under control, k? ;-)
January 24th, 2007 at 8:04 pmBluedog49
Please just walk away from the podium with what is left of your ass that Robert has handed to you.
Most experienced debaters who lose know it is best not to draw any more attention to themselves than they have already recieved publicly and on the official record.
All you are doing is making yourself look more infantile in your loss to Robert by throwing a very, very weak tantrum.
Just run along and go to a cloak room.
You will be forgotten about soon as soon as Robert lays his next unsuspecting victim to rest. sarcasm/ OFF
Good job Robert. Very well presented and excellent salient points.
January 24th, 2007 at 8:06 pmBlake, do you want the government to force women to carry babies to term against their will?
If a woman has an abortion, do you want to throw her in jail?
January 24th, 2007 at 8:09 pmBibleboy, if you think winning is avoiding the hard questions, then I guess by your strange set of values, bob has won the debate. But, from where i sit, neither you or bob is ready or willing to step up to the plate and deal with the real-world issues. I ask you: do you think the government should force women to carry babies to term against their will? If you can’t answer that question directly, just STFU.
January 24th, 2007 at 8:12 pmObsessing about somebody else’s ass now too? Wow, that is a lot of ass in your head at one time.
January 24th, 2007 at 8:12 pmI personally feel that partial birth abortion in cases that are not medically necessary are wrong.
Comment by hacker bob — January 24, 2007 @ 7:35 pm
and i will say that i agree with this… but i know that as INfrequent as the procedure is, there are very very few performed where it is not medically necessary… and still, i would not judge…
this procedure has been blown out of proportion to accomodate the anti-choice fear and control machine… many of the same who are hoo-rah-ing for this war against strange brown people…
January 24th, 2007 at 8:13 pmjust sayin’…
And not it is not a control freak thing. If it were, I would say all abortions need to be illegal no matter the reason.
Comment by hacker bob — January 24, 2007 @ 7:35 pm
It is about being a control freak: You want to punish women for being “irresponsible”. Carrying their pregnancies to term would be their punishment.
We are talking about adult women who do not need anyone to tell them what to do, or how to live their lifes.
And your “abortion on demand” dictum is getting old: No woman goes happily to get an abortion; if that is your idea, you are mistaken. For the vast majority of women the decision is a very difficult one. It is not something they do over the weekend for lack of better things to do.
I personally feel that partial birth abortion in cases that are not medically necessary are wrong.
Then don’t have them. Others have different reasons why they would want to terminate their pregnancy -even if not medically necessary.
January 24th, 2007 at 8:13 pmWe should be thanking our lucky stars that we have leaders left who believe in the words of the Lord God the Almighty.
If left in the hands of Demoncrats, as a nation, what do we have left to strive for? Comment by better red than dead
Capitalism is not religion
January 24th, 2007 at 8:13 pmGeorge is not the man of light.
George said Jesus was a great philosopher.
God does not belong to the left or right, those things came well after and are a machination of man.
If you were to call yourself a democrat does that make you Godless?
If I were to say that Republicans are Satanic would that make it so?
Where do you get off by judging other people just because some person said so on TV, or a book?
Who are you to tell me what I believe?
You cared not to ask anyone here what their religion is, nor do you know. You, to me, sound like a park bencher.
Even if the condom broke?
January 24th, 2007 at 8:27 pmLetting the public choose whether it’s okay to kill a fetus is a lot like leaving the choice whether to own black slaves up to 19th century white tobacco farmers.
Comment by Blake — January 24, 2007 @ 7:59 pm
Er, no. It is not a lot like it. As a matter of fact, it’s nothing like it at all. Slaves were property. Abolition of slavery was about releasing people from bondage. Abortion is about a woman’s right to choose whether or not to carry a pregnancy to term.
Come to think of it, the right to abortion is more like the abolition of slavery: It releases women from the bondage of having unwanted pregnancies.
On the other hand, if you believe in human rights, you’d see an obvious problem.
If you believe in human rights, you’ll see the obvious problem with your argument. Human rights organisations have been advocating women’s rights to safe, legal abortive procedures for years:
[E]quitable access to safe abortion services is first and foremost a human right. Where abortion is safe and legal, no one is forced to have one. Where abortion is illegal and unsafe, women are forced to carry unwanted pregnancies to term or suffer serious health consequences and even death.
Human Rights Watch – Women’s Rights: Abortion
You don’t know what you are talking about, and your human rights blather is bunk.
The partial birth abortion ban is not a matter of a mother’s health and future fertility. It’s a question of the circumstances under which it’s appropriate for a mother to end her child’s life.
It’s both: Sometimes pregnancies need to be terminated because they endanger the woman’s life, and sometimes because carrying a pregnancy to term inplies undue burden on the woman (whether financial, or physical).
What is with men and forcing women to give birth anyway?
January 24th, 2007 at 8:28 pmhacker bob,
Why assume that second and third trimester abortions are the result of not taking care of things sooner? Do you honestly think that a woman justs wakes up late in her pregnancy and decides, “Hey, you know what might be nice? An abortion! WHY didn’t I think of it earlier?!” Women who get abortions give it considerable thought first, I can assure you. In fact that insulting assumption is behind later term abortions in some states. There are laws that require women to “think about it” for anywhere from 24 to 48 hours before a clinic is allowed to perform the procedure. Throughout the U.S. more than 80% of counties do not offer abortion. So, if a minor, or someone who can’t afford to miss work, or travel across their state in order to get an abortion. Or, you know, some women can’t afford it because they are poor and the federal government is restricted from providing financial help for abortions even when a woman qualifies for other medical financial assistance So, if one of these women seeks out an abortion in their first trimester and is not capable of returning to the clinic for whatever, or affording abortion, well, the lovely compassionate government has decided that they ought to be forced to wait until they can come back, and in many cases these women are forced to have a second or third term abortion. And then the government decided that those should be illegal too.
This is certainly not the only reason for late term abortion (partial birth abortion is not a correct term, just something moralists made up to feel superior). Sometimes medical conditions aren’t detectable until later in a pregnancy. Sometimes late term abortions are completely necessary, and it is not up to you, bob, to decide whether they are or not. You know who that is up to? That’s right, a woman and her health care provider.
You say you don’t want abortions to be illegal, well, that’s just swell. Have you seen what happens in countries where it is? Where there is a demand that a woman carry a pregnancy to term no matter what? It’s not pretty. Women still get abortions, you know. But they are medically unsafe, and around 80,000 women die from them every year. These are human beings dying because of a procedure that is safe and effective if it is performed in a clean, sterile, knowledgeable environment. How come it boils your blood that women refuse to carry unhealthy or dangerous pregnancies to term, and the fact that thousands of women die every year because they have no access to health care? Who’s more important, bobby?
Any and all anti-abortion rhetoric has a hell of a lot less to do with the health and safety of a fetus than it does with controlling women’s bodies.
Poverty exacerbates abortion. As does a lack of medically accurate sex education. As does a lack of safe sex practices. As does irresponsibility. As does a broken condom. Or rape. Or incest. Both sex, and a right reproductive freedom, are far more complicated than that. It’s terribly uncaring to boil it down to behavior you disapprove of.
@84, the bible is a bunch fairy tails written by a patriarchal society. Please don’t use it to justify your sexist ideas.
January 24th, 2007 at 8:36 pmWe Stands for Women and we are my norties.
Anything for a vote as usual I see democrats?
Must have been a black †poster child †from east St. Louis who they let come up with that sign slogan.
We Stands for Women.
We democrats, we stands for women and norities.
hah. You pathetic fools taking advantage of minorities again to try to bolster you base with promises of more free cheese and overall government welfare for all those who vote for us.
None of these programs come from your heart. It is all about attaining votes.
Picture this:
Down in New Orleans in the flood ravaged wards, a FAT black woman stands up on the roof of a flooded minivan with a sign that reads:
†We Stands for Women. â€
Hilarious and yet sad at the same time that this country has sunk this low at the hands of you democrats.
January 24th, 2007 at 8:39 pmThere is no WE in the slogan dumb fu*k.
January 24th, 2007 at 8:49 pm.
January 24th, 2007 at 8:49 pmwell said, fed up…
.
I’m not a democrat. I am sovereign as my, and your, Lord.
You make foolish assumptions Cross. If you asked this woman if she believed in Jesus she would most likely say yes.
January 24th, 2007 at 8:53 pmIf you misspell a word Cross is that also the fault of a politician?
Why do you regurgitate such utter nonsense?
Isn’t WE just another way of saying US?
January 24th, 2007 at 8:58 pmAhh Bluedog,
Time to check out the new PearlJam album World Wide Suicide Lots o’ great stuff. The song “Army Reserve” Rocks.
January 24th, 2007 at 9:38 pmZep,
Old rugged cross is a idiotic troll who has posted under a couple of different names. they said almost exactly the same thing under the name better red then dead, and red in georgia, or something like that. best to ignore.
if you ignore them it irritates them
January 24th, 2007 at 9:45 pmHe makes it sound so simple.
This moron is so out of touch.
Have him walk a day in my shoes and pay my medical bills, maybe he would think different.
He never had to work an honest day in his life therefore we get this garbage.
January 24th, 2007 at 11:22 pmI often wonder what it’s like to go through life with a simple-minded world view without understanding its complexities. In some ways, it must be kind of nice.
How does poverty cause abortion? Do poor people have more sex?
Hey bob, just thought you should know this: just because you THINK there is no need for something doesn’t mean there’s no need for something.
Comment by Bluedog49
And just because you THINK there is a need for something does not make it so.
BTW, you never did answer my question about if a woman does go to jail. Can children not go to their father or other family members?
If there is no other option, foster/state care may be an option. And again, you need to remember that not everyone arrested for or convicted of a crime goes to jail.
Comment by Zep Tepi
Zep, post the entire line, not half of it.
You post:
I actually said:
fed up,
I am personally against late term/partial birth abortion in cases where it is not medically necessary. Sounds to me like I AM leaving it up to the doctors and the women (unless they are married, then the Husband has to be involved as well) as I am not qualified to determine if an abortion is medically necessary. I know that no one is just goin gto wake up and say “I think I’ll have an abortion today.” I do feel that 3 months is plenty of time to decide about an abortion in a case that is not medically necessary. Sorry if I am not giving women enought credit by thinking they can make up their minds in 3 months.
January 24th, 2007 at 11:25 pmI still have no comeback for that one…
Comment by Gregor Samsa
Easy one, Gregor: We should make out.
January 24th, 2007 at 11:33 pmWhat is with men and forcing women to give birth anyway?
Comment by Gregor Samsa
Its a patriarchal (?) society.
January 24th, 2007 at 11:42 pm@84, the bible is a bunch fairy tails written by a patriarchal society. Please don’t use it to justify your sexist ideas.
Comment by fed up
That was a blast. :)
January 24th, 2007 at 11:47 pm56 – Bluedog,
I’ve skipped over a lot of posts, but you make excellent points. Forced gestation could run afoul of the XIII Amendment. The woman is coerced to provide care and nurishment to another human being 24/7 against her will.
And thus far, no right to life person has ever answered my questions regarding miscarriages. If a fertilized egg is given full personhood, then miscarriages could be treated as negligent homicides. The woman who miscarries and her ob-gyn could share criminal liability.
Here’s the scenarios: a pregnant drug-addict miscarries; an alcoholic miscarries; a smoker miscarries; medical malpractice by an ob-gyn causes a miscarriage.
Then there’s third-party liability: X causes an accident, which causes Y (who was impregnated the previous evening) to miscarry. X is charged with manslaughter.
These will be the kinds of cases that will come to trial, once a fertilized egg is given personhood.
On the plus side: pregnant women will be able to use the carpool lane!
January 25th, 2007 at 12:38 amSorry if I am not giving women enought credit by thinking they can make up their minds in 3 months.
Comment by hacker bob — January 24, 2007 @ 11:25 pm
According to statistics, only about 25% of the women who opt for a late-term abortion do it because they took time to make a decision. The rest delay having the procedure done for a host of reasons, two of which are 1) a misjudged gestation -which points to a lack of access to proper medical care which in turns points to, yes, poverty, and 2) a difficulty in making the necessary arrangements -which points to a lack of access to clinics, which in turn points to, yes, poverty. Read the numbers for yourself
See, the problem is that man can walk away from a pregnancy. Our fellow men do it all the time; ever heard of the dead-beat dads? Women do not have that option. They are stuck with the pregnancy. Insisting that women be responsible and not get pregnant ignores that it takes two to tango.
January 25th, 2007 at 1:05 amJuan,
Thanks. I think I ended up gibbering something like that back then. But that’s not the witty, clever retort I was looking for. It wouldn’t leave anyone in the dust.
My quest continues….
January 25th, 2007 at 1:10 am#119 Gregor:
God did create man as his image and ressemblance. Then God saw the man’s magnificency and decided that, in order to not have an equal competitor, a drawback to the man was needed. The did create the woman.
/Sarcasm off
P.S.: Please, please, women of TP, don’t hit me too hard :P
January 25th, 2007 at 7:55 amGod did create man as his image and ressemblance. Then God saw the man’s magnificency and decided that, in order to not have an equal competitor, a drawback to the man was needed. The did create the woman.
Comment by Evil Spaniard
Evil Spaniard,
Out of one of our ribs no less. The part with not alot of meat value anyway. Shows how much God values women, they are to be there to multiply mankind in Gods Divine Eyes and otherwise and generally keep quiet on all things in life.
Maybe there is something to Islam.
Peace and quiet and most inportantly submision, from an uppity woman.
January 25th, 2007 at 8:34 ambob:
Have you ever actually spoken with women who have had second-trimester abortions? Have you heard their reasons? Or are you just making assumptions, aka talking out of your ass?
My guess is that you know absolutely nothing about women who have had second trimester abortions. Or the reasons why they did it.
January 25th, 2007 at 10:55 amHave you ever actually spoken with women who have had second-trimester abortions? Have you heard their reasons? Or are you just making assumptions, aka talking out of your ass?
My guess is that you know absolutely nothing about women who have had second trimester abortions. Or the reasons why they did it.
Comment by eyelid
Sorry, Is there something I said that you didn’t understand? Other than something being medically necessary, it is an elective procedure.
If it is mot medically necessary, what would be a valid reason?
January 25th, 2007 at 1:31 pm#123
January 25th, 2007 at 1:54 pmHere is what is wrong with you asking for a “valid reason”. Valid reasons are subjective. What you view as valid and someone else views as valid will be totally different. THIS is why you have a problem with control. You view only your reasoning as valid and you get to deciede who else you think has a “valid” reason. This is why individual choices need to be upheld. Who the hell are you to decide what is a valid reason to do anything in anyone’s life but your own???
Evil Spaniard,
Thanks, that is a good one!
Now if I could only find my ex-girlfriend’s phone number…
January 25th, 2007 at 2:14 pmIf it is mot medically necessary, what would be a valid reason?
Comment by hacker bob
Umm?
Little Tina decided to play with the boys one summer and well, Herb and I didnt do such a good job at talking to Tina about sex and well, one thing led to another, it was a birds and bees summer for her for sure and now with school going to be starting next month my little girl admitted she slept with Thad her boyfriend and everything is fine on the homefront now.
Except the little problem of the baby.
My daughter is a child herself who screwed up by sleeping around unprotected and slightly underage. But hey, hormones make even male deer do crazy things like jump through patio windows.
My daughter has decided as have I, that neither her or I have no time in our lives for a mistake that was made over the summer.
This mistake would effect my daughter for the rest of her life and quite possibly in a negative way.
We are glad as a parent and daughter that we have alternatives besides coming to full term and adopting the baby out.
We are busy people and the last thing Herb and I ever wanted was our 15 year old daughter to be having daughters and then I and Herb get stuck raising TWO generations instead of just one.
That is supposed to be my daughters job when she is ready.
And she will decide when that time will be.
Not you.
January 25th, 2007 at 2:52 pmshelly,
what an amazing story. it’s stories like these that show us why abortion is so needed. can you imagine how terrible it would be if the extremists had their way and forced us to live in a world where we had to deal with mistakes like these?
partial birth abortion is an unfortunate compromise for ending pregnancy late in gestation. the best medical procedure, with the least risk of morbidity or mortality, would be to perform the “abortion” post-partum. there is absolutely no health risk to the mother, and the neonate could be given anesthetic (followed of course by KCl) to calm down the moralistic bible-thumpers.
raising a child is no small matter. mothers should be given at least six months following birth to make this weighty decision.
January 25th, 2007 at 3:17 pmComment by shelly turner
Thouching story. Seriously.
But did little Tina wait until she was 30 weeks pregnant? If she did not come talk to you about it well before 20 weeks( much less 30), then you have other issues to deal with as well.
and I didnt do such a good job at talking to Tina about sex
This is very key statement. You were negligent in your duties as a parent.
Here are things I see in what you wrote.
“I didn’t have time to teach her properly about sex.”
But you had time to discuss abortion?
“I don’t have time to raise another child”
But what if you were to come up pregnant? Would you have time then?
Again, I have never said to make abortion illegal. I voiced a PERSONAL opinion about late term/partial birth abortion.
January 25th, 2007 at 3:24 pmComment by sarah
If I follow what you are saying correctly, you are talking about murdering an infant. Once it leaves the womb and is alive, you can not say it is not a life.
January 25th, 2007 at 3:26 pmpartial birth abortion is an unfortunate compromise for ending pregnancy late in gestation. the best medical procedure, with the least risk of morbidity or mortality, would be to perform the “abortion†post-partum. there is absolutely no health risk to the mother, and the neonate could be given anesthetic (followed of course by KCl) to calm down the moralistic bible-thumpers.
raising a child is no small matter. mothers should be given at least six months following birth to make this weighty decision. Comment by sarah
I think that we should be able to perform an “abortion” on you, you SICK MOTHER F*&KER.
Needless to say, as a mother of three, I am comlpetely offended by your statement.
Do the world a favor, don’t reproduce!
January 25th, 2007 at 4:56 pmI think that anyone who is for partial birth abortion needs to have their head examined. Does this make since?—– If man kills his wife and unborn child, he goes to jail with 2 murder convition, now if a women kills her unborn baby, it is okay, it is her body. How is that justice when both are committing the same crime. Demacrates need to have their heads checked.
January 25th, 2007 at 10:47 pmAbortion is against God’s rules. If a women can lay down and spread her legs, she should be willing to take on the resposablity of raising a child. Everyone knows how children come into this world. There are several women who want children, but can not have one. There are other options rather than abortion for women to choose from. People need to grow up and learn responsablity. This is coming from a mother of 5, who had her first child at 15 years old. There is your responsablity!
January 25th, 2007 at 11:00 pmAll of you men just shut up, you have no right to even state your opinion on the matter of “abortion ” As for all the Women who are for it….. what is this world coming to, disgusting!
January 25th, 2007 at 11:49 pmI agree pnut, I am writting a paper on abortion for college and I get mad just reading about it. Every women that even considers it need to checked into a mental hospital. How can someone just kill a cute baby. I do not care if my life was at stake, I have lived, and that baby deserves to have a chance at life. I have a 8 year old and a 6 month old. I wabt to cry just thinking about how people can kill babies. I think that if a mother has a partial abortion she needs to be convicted for murder. For those who agree with abortion, how would you feel if your wife had an abortion. Killed your very son or daughter. And for the wife, what if your husband wanted you to have an abortion? How does that make you feel. What if your mother killed you. You would not even be here to give your opinion on this topic. God say to be kind and not comitt murder. For the women that do not want kids and has an abortion everytime she gets pregnant. STOP KILLING!!!!! USE BIRTH CONTROL!!!!! ABORTION IS NOT A FORM OF BIRTH CONTROL!!!!
January 26th, 2007 at 1:02 amJoseph
I just wanted to write to say that you have a great site and a wonderful resource for all to share.
March 16th, 2008 at 4:07 am