ThinkFast: January 30, 2007
ThinkFast: January 30, 2007
The Army and Marine Corps “are short thousands of vehicles, armor kits and other equipment needed to supply” the extra 21,500 troops President Bush plans to send to Iraq. “It’s inevitable that that has to happen, unless five brigades of up-armored Humvees fall out of the sky,” one senior Army official said.
Simulations of civil war in Iraq carried out by the Brookings Institution found that, “as the descent into civil war gathered pace, confrontation between the US and Iran intensified, and Washington’s leverage on Tehran diminished. Civil war in Iraq would turn Iran into ‘the unambiguous adversary’ of the US.”
Testimony from former White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer yesterday showed he knew only “what the truly powerful chose to tell him, and sometimes that was not much. On occasion he would pronounce with great authority the administration’s position on a topic only to find it had changed and nobody had bothered to let him know.”
Two private advocacy groups say they have “new evidence of suppression and manipulation” of climate scientists “in seven federal agencies to downplay the threat of global warming.”
The House has reconstituted “the Oversight and Investigations subcommittee of the Armed Services Committee” after “more than a decade of dormancy.” The subcommittee “will delve into the details of Iraq-related reconstruction contracts, troop readiness, equipment priorities and Iraq war strategy — looking for waste, fraud and shortfalls.”
33: Number of “forgotten emergencies” around the globe, according to UNICEF. Twenty of these crises are in Africa. UNICEF is calling on the world to give $635 million to assist children and women in these countries.
“Chile’s president has signed a decree so that the morning-after contraceptive pill can be given to girls as young as 14 without their parents’ consent.”
“Concerned about the way the Bush administration moved against Iraq,” a group of congressman led by Rep. Walter Jones (R-NC) is pushing a resolution saying Bush must come to Congress before using military force against Iran. “The Congress should say to the President,” Jones said, “that ‘we believe you should come to the Congress before you initiate any kind of attack.’”
And finally: “If the thought of buying dolphin-safe tuna and free-range chicken makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside, just wait until you can fill your car up at a Terror-Free Oil station.” The Terror-Free Oil Initiative “promises to sell gasoline sourced from countries that ‘do not export or finance terrorism.’” Its first outlet opens next month in Omaha, Nebraska, but locals “seem to be greeting the station with healthy dose of Midwest skepticism. ‘It’s really going to depend on the cost,‘ one told a local news station.”
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You want “Terror Free Oil” go to a Citgo station.
Terror Free Oil, oh man that’s funny!
January 30th, 2007 at 9:00 amDid you check out the pic of Chile’s prez? Wonder when her family got to Chile. I’m betting sometime in late 45.
January 30th, 2007 at 9:02 amThe Army and Marine Corps “are short thousands of vehicles, armor kits and other equipment needed to supply†the extra 21,500 troops President Bush plans to send to Iraq.
He clearly said he was going to send in more troops, not more equipment.
Meanwhile, Congress argues over the language of a non-binding resolution to send a message to the President….
January 30th, 2007 at 9:09 amOversight and Investigations subcommittee of the Armed Services Committee: The subcommittee “will delve into the details of Iraq-related reconstruction contracts, troop readiness, equipment priorities and Iraq war strategy — looking for waste, fraud and shortfalls.â€
I bet the shredders at Haliburton and Blackwater are gearing up for a serious workout.
January 30th, 2007 at 9:10 amStrange that billions of dollars are being given for the US military operation in Iraq, but most of it never gets to the troops in the field for equipment, so most of the funds are being stolen! Bush and Cheney are robbing the US Treasury and the money is going into secret bank accounts in Switzerland!
January 30th, 2007 at 9:13 amTo check out trial information, (they’re blogging from the courtroom!) go to firedoglake.com
January 30th, 2007 at 9:14 amAri also shed light on how classified info is spread around the WH
(His word, my emphasis)
Civil war in Iraq would turn Iran into ‘the unambiguous adversary’ of the US.
All the more reason to bomb and invade Iran.
Then their oil will be rightfully ours.
Besides, we’re doing out part to reduce the surplus population.
January 30th, 2007 at 9:15 amOh you left out this news
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,21132340-2,00.html
Fight for Islamic state, Aussies told
By D.D. McNicoll
News.com.au
January 29, 2007 01:00am
A RADICAL Islamic group yesterday called on all Muslims in Australia to work towards forming a pan-global Islamic state, while NSW and federal politicians traded blows on whether the group should be banned under the anti-terror laws.
More than 450 men and women packed into a reception hall at Lakemba in Sydney’s southwest to hear speakers from Hizb ut-Tahrir (Party of Liberation) outline their hopes for a single Islamic state that would overthrow all dictators, invaders and governments in every Muslim country across the globe.
The Khilafah conference was told that “humankind” could only escape destruction under “the divine order of Islam”.
A conference declaration issued at the day’s end called on all Muslims in Australia to “assume their responsibility for effecting political change in the Muslim world and to manifest universal brotherhood”.
…
The conference called yesterday for the political destiny of the Muslim world to be in the hands of Muslims only, and for all external interference with their affairs to be rejected.
Addressing the conference, controversial Indonesian cleric and one of the Hizb ut-Tahrir leaders in that country, Ismail Yusanto, said Muslims were now facing a new dawn after a “long dark night”.
Dr Yusanto called on “all the sons and daughters of Islam, both domestically and externally” to support the establishment of a Muslim state under the direction of a single religious leader.
“Sacrifice must be encouraged,” he said, warning that Western capitalist countries would be sure to attack any emerging Islamic state.
“If the capital of the state falls, then the rest of the nation must be involved in an all-out war against the invader,” he said.
“We will call on all of Islam to be ready for a jihad.
“There is no victory and glory without sacrifice and hard work. No pain, no gain. But Islam will be victorious.”
…
Another speaker, one of Hizb ut-Tahrir’s Australian leaders, Ashraf Doureihi, said Muslims should reject capitalism and embrace Islam. “We must make Islam the only reference point of Muslims,” Mr Doureihi said, warning that every strata of Muslim society had been infiltrated with non-Muslim ideas.
“The West has been successful in deceiving Muslims. They have become hypnotised by the Western way of life.”
However, conference spokesman Washim Doureihi said the work of Hizb ut-Tahrir was not to change the political nature of Australia.
It is because of Islam and my allegiance to Islam that I am responsible for ensuring to do what I can to protect the safety and security of all peoples in this country and beyond,” Mr Doureihi said.
“The overriding imperative, because of my Islam, is to treat all Australians the same, and I will work hard to build a better future for all of mankind.”
Mr Doureihi said the organisation’s work was directed to the Muslim world “outside Australia – 100 per cent”.
[Vince: They always do this double talk , it usually works for people who don't know their game]
Hear what the clerics are calling for in the UK
http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=EA0270E133DC8334
January 30th, 2007 at 9:16 amJudy Miller will be on the stand today.
January 30th, 2007 at 9:17 amIran has been at war with the United States since 1979
January 30th, 2007 at 9:17 amJay, most of the war budget goes to the civilian no-bid profit-plus contracts. It’s not being stolen if there’s a valid contract between Halliburton and the U.S. Government. It’s just good business.
January 30th, 2007 at 9:20 amThe Real McCain
January 30th, 2007 at 9:20 amVideo showing McCain flip-flops.
Ari Fleischer yesterday showed he knew only “what the truly powerful chose to tell him, and sometimes that was not much. On occasion he would pronounce with great authority the administration’s position on a topic only to find it had changed and nobody had bothered to let him know.â€
Yet this patsy still demanded immunity from prosecution before he spoke to the Feds. Another Bushco profile in courage.
Ps. You know what momma said: you judge a man by the company he keeps.
January 30th, 2007 at 9:22 amThe Army and Marine Corps “are short thousands of vehicles, armor kits and other equipment needed to supply†the extra 21,500 troops President Bush plans to send to Iraq.
That’s OK…they’re short thousands of troops as well, so it all evens out.
January 30th, 2007 at 9:24 amBush still can’t compete with the master:
Clinton Adminstration Corruption
- Number of individuals and businesses associated with the Clinton machine who have been convicted of or pleaded guilty to crimes: 47
- Number of these convictions during Clinton’s presidency: 33
- Number of indictments/misdemeanor charges: 61
- Number of imprisonments: 14
- Number of congressional witnesses who have pled the 5th Amendment, fled the country to avoid testifying, or (in the case of foreign witnesses) refused to be interviewed: 124
- As of June 2000, the Justice Department listed 25 people indicted and 19 convicted because of the 1996 Clinton-Gore fundraising scandals.
- According to the House Committee on Government Reform in September 2000, 79 House and Senate witnesses asserted the Fifth Amendment in the course of investigations into Gore’s last fundraising campaign. [These figures are included in the larger figures elsewhere].
-James Riady entered a plea agreement to pay an $8.5 million fine for campaign finance crimes. This was a record under campaign finance laws
- Number of Starr-Ray investigation convictions or guilty pleas to date (including one governor, one associate attorney general and two Clinton business partners): 15
- Number of Clinton Cabinet members who came under criminal investigation: 5
- Number of Reagan cabinet members who came under criminal investigation: 4
- Number of top officials jailed in the Teapot Dome Scandal: 3
- Guilty pleas and convictions obtained by Donald Smaltz in cases involving charges of bribery and fraud against former Agriculture Secretary Espy and associated individuals and businesses: 15
- Acquitted or overturned cases (including Espy): 6
- Fines and penalties assessed: $11.5 million
- Cost of investigation: $22.2 million through 9/99
- Amount Tyson Food paid in fines and court costs: $6 million
- Amount Tyson Food still has in annual government contracts: $200 million
- Reasons individuals other than Espy were convicted or pled guilty: Concealing knowledge of gifts to Espy and his girlfriend (1), providing illegal gratuities to Espy(4), illegally supplementing the salary of a government official (2), concealing receipt of illegal funds on behalf of Espy (1) (Espy’s chief of staff sentenced to prison in this case)
UNEXPLAINED PHENOMENA
January 30th, 2007 at 9:29 am- FBI files misappropriated by the White House: c. 900
- Estimated number of witnesses quoted in FBI files misappropriated by the White House: 18,000
- Number of witnesses who developed medical problems at critical points in Clinton scandals investigation (Tucker, Hale, both McDougals, Lindsey): 5
- Problem areas listed in a memo by Clinton’s own lawyer in preparation for the president’s defense: 40
- Number of witnesses and critics of Clinton subjected to IRS audit: 45
- Number of names placed in a White House secret database without the knowledge of those named: c. 200,000
- Number of persons involved with Clinton who have been beaten up: 2
- Number of women involved with Clinton who claim to have been physically threatened (Sally Perdue, Gennifer Flowers, Kathleen Willey, Linda Tripp, Elizabeth Ward Gracen): 5
- Number of men involved in the Clinton scandals who have been beaten up or claimed to have been intimidated: 10
TripMaster – didn’t you hear? They’re recruiting overseas. Join the Army, become a citizen. Now, how long do you think it will take before an extremist group sees this as a way of infiltrating the U.S. Armed Forces?
January 30th, 2007 at 9:33 amHey Mr Bush if there are not enough Humvees replace them with “light armored vehicles” AKA bicycles.Cheeper, and healthier….
Second option: Withdrawal.Our option:Impeachment.
January 30th, 2007 at 9:33 am15 – Vince, you’re off-topic. Besides, you’re comparing Clinton, who was hounded by a Republican Congress with Bush, who has been given a free pass by a Republican Congress. (See, for example, the Military Commissions Act, which granted immunity for War Crimes.)
January 30th, 2007 at 9:36 am#15
January 30th, 2007 at 9:40 amVince P.,
I think you’re missing a few links there.
Re#15 Vince P
What an amzing new discovery you have made, all wrongs are made right, if Clinton can be associated with the wrongs!
If I wanna off somebody, do you have a stat for the number of people he offed, to make it right?
January 30th, 2007 at 9:40 amWhat happened to the ‘Coalition Of The Willing’ ?! The 30 plus nations that are fighitng with us against Saddam…where are they?! the Congress and the people were told that a lrage number of countries massing to get rid of Saddam before war started in 2003. If every country of these so called coalition contributed 600 t0 700 soldiers..then we would not have to send 20,000 more Americnas..Was it hype? OR was it reality…?!! http://www.pwhce.org/willing.html
January 30th, 2007 at 9:42 amThe Army and Marine Corps “are short thousands of vehicles, armor kits and other equipment needed to supply†the extra 21,500 troops President Bush plans to send to Iraq.
It never stopped them before. What’s your point? Are you trying to say that the very same people who are accusing others of not supporting the troops are willing to send 21,500 more troops into combat in Iraq without the proper armor and equipment for the task? And that those same people will scream bloody murder if Congress cuts funding for the troops and they’ll probably say that it will leave the troops unprotected even though they won’t be protected even if the full funding were approved because the administration won’t spend the money on armor and new equipment? Is that what you’re trying to say? Oh.
January 30th, 2007 at 9:43 amThe Army and Marine Corps “are short thousands of vehicles, armor kits and other equipment needed to supply†the extra 21,500 troops President Bush plans to send to Iraq. “It’s inevitable that that has to happen, unless five brigades of up-armored Humvees fall out of the sky,†one senior Army official said.
“As you know, you have to go to war with the Army you have, not the Army you want,” Rumsfeld said.” 12/04
January 30th, 2007 at 9:44 amThe Army and Marine Corps “are short thousands of vehicles, armor kits and other equipment needed to supply†the extra 21,500 troops President Bush plans to send to Iraq.
Bush is lucky all those bumper stickers say “Support Our Troops” not “Supply Our Troops”. If they did maybe people would be concerned.
January 30th, 2007 at 9:45 am“the Oversight and Investigations subcommittee [...] looking for waste, fraud and shortfalls.â€
that should be easy… should be…
January 30th, 2007 at 9:48 amOh that frosts me… my nephew (national guard) is being deployed to Baghdad in a short time (warning orders already given), for what is sounding like a very scary mission.
He has said already that we are not allowed to provide him with what the system would have him go without.
Oh thiis is just so horrible… I am worried sick and he has not even left yet.
January 30th, 2007 at 9:51 am#15: Nice trolling, Vince. Here’s something Clinton didn’t do: ignore intelligence reports and read a children’s book while we are attacked on American soil by terrorists and 3,000 people are killed.
January 30th, 2007 at 9:53 amThe Terror-Free Oil Initiative “promises to sell gasoline sourced from countries that ‘do not export or finance terrorism.’â€
serious question – which country is that? … argentina?
January 30th, 2007 at 9:54 amIt is funny that people keep saying that we are out of troops. The Marine Corps has 66,000 that have not served a single tour in Iraq OR Afghanistan yet.
January 30th, 2007 at 9:56 amWonder when her family got to Chile. I’m betting sometime in late 45.
Comment by klyde — January 30, 2007 @ 9:02 am
uh, NO… is that your bigotry showing?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Bachelet
January 30th, 2007 at 9:58 am“It’s inevitable that that has to happen, unless five brigades of up-armored Humvees fall out of the sky,†one senior Army official said. ”
Daryll, you could actually do some good here, your prayers for these needed humvee brigades are needed. Get busy.
January 30th, 2007 at 10:00 amserious question – which country is that? … argentina?
Comment by katy
Argentina doesnt have oil. Really. :)
January 30th, 2007 at 10:00 amI bet the shredders at Haliburton and Blackwater are gearing up for a serious workout.
Comment by Joe Sixpack — January 30, 2007 @ 9:10 am
yep, joe… that’s what i meant about “should be”…
January 30th, 2007 at 10:00 amThe Terror-Free Oil Initiative “promises to sell gasoline sourced from countries that ‘do not export or finance terrorism.’
Does this exclude the selling of our own oil? Why do they hate America’s oil.
January 30th, 2007 at 10:01 amhacker roberto – I heard tell that the Marine Commandant just announced that was gonna change…?
January 30th, 2007 at 10:04 amTerror free oil is the kind which is left if the ground.
January 30th, 2007 at 10:05 amCivil war in Iraq would turn Iran into ‘the unambiguous adversary’ of the US.â€
Hooduh thunk it, that this may have been these asswipes’ plan after all!!
January 30th, 2007 at 10:05 amGood thing Vance can cut and paste or he would be totally lost!!!
January 30th, 2007 at 10:07 am#15.
Comment by Vince P
You really know how to stink up a thread, Vince. Now you ought to try saying all that thru your mouth.
By the way, do I need to guess what the “P” stands for?
January 30th, 2007 at 10:08 amhacker roberto – I heard tell that the Marine Commandant just announced that was gonna change…?
Comment by RUCerious
Yep, and it is a good thing, in a way. It is not good that others are going to have to go, but at least some that have been 2,3,4,5 times can get a little break.
January 30th, 2007 at 10:09 amJoe 6pk – can we have a contest to guess the P?
January 30th, 2007 at 10:13 amMine would be peckerhead!
It is not good that others are going to have to go, but at least some that have been 2,3,4,5 times can get a little break.
Comment by hacker bob
Here is another idea: Nobody goes. Everyone returns. You can praise them, give them a parade, and make yourself believe again that those forces are peace forces around the world doing so much good by spreading good old american values. Meanwhile in Iraq, well, who cares as long as your beloved ones are again with you. Thats whats important, bob.
January 30th, 2007 at 10:14 am#15 Vince P
I’d just like to see a few sources. For example, where do you get “Number of individuals and businesses associated with the Clinton machine” and how does that source define “associated with”? Never mind what the source considers to be the “Clinton machine”. Gee, it wouldn’t come from somebody funded by the Scaifes by any chance, would it?
January 30th, 2007 at 10:15 amVery interesting department – Fleischer now using the Sgt Schultz defense.
January 30th, 2007 at 10:15 amI knew nussing, nussssing!
The Terror-Free Oil Initiative “promises to sell gasoline sourced from countries that ‘do not export or finance terrorism.’â€
serious question – which country is that? … argentina?
Comment by katy
The katy’s question begs the answer: so which countries?
January 30th, 2007 at 10:16 amMarch 17 Protest Rally At Pentagon
30th of January 2007
by Jay Randal
The most important Anti-WAR protest in US history is scheduled to take place at the Pentagon on 3-17-07.
All Democrat presidential aspirants would be wise to attend, this important event, and NOT be cowards to stand-up against vile “Military Industrial Complex.”
An absolute majority of American populace want the heinous fiasco debacle quagmire Iraq war/occupation ended, ASAP, meaning ended in 6 months or less now.
Americans are NOT concerned about saving President George W. Bush’s personal reputation, by escalating Iraq mistake with troop surge, so Bush can resign.
Disgraced President Lyndon B. Johnson was forced to retire from the presidency, because of Vietnam fiasco, so Bush the so-called “Decider” can do the same for Iraq.
President Richard M. Nixon ultimately resigned NOT for a sloppy burglary, at Watergate Complex, but for his criminal warmongering in Vietnam and Cambodia, so it’s time for the Congress to hold Bush accountable.
( Jay Randal, political activist and writer in Georgia, USA.)
PS: Contact your Reps and Senators in DC to attend the protest on March 17th and to demand the horrific occupation of Iraq ends now!
January 30th, 2007 at 10:18 amoops… thanks juan… i meant venezuela…
January 30th, 2007 at 10:20 amComment by Juan C
Juan, try reading what I wrote:It is not good that others are going to have to go
I agree it is not good sending them. But if they have to be sent, maybe some little boy or girl will be able to have a relationship with there father/mother who has had to spend a year or more over in Iraq.
If you want to start your crap about how bad the US Military is, let me know now, so I can get an early start about the so called peace activists.
January 30th, 2007 at 10:22 amSssshhhh. Nobody tell the troops they don’t have enough armor, you don’t want to send them the wrong message.
Did you guys hear about the hot Shia on Shia action down in Najaf the other day? frikkin intra-sect violence, courtesy of a SHia doomsday cult.. they tried to play it off as mixed Shia/Sunni violence, but im sorry, Medhi (??) is a shia thing.. we’ve got fighting amongst even members of the same sect… what a lovely mess we are refereeing here..
January 30th, 2007 at 10:23 amTestimony from former White House Press Secretary Ari Fleischer yesterday showed he knew only “what the truly powerful chose to tell him, and sometimes that was not much. On occasion he would pronounce with great authority the administration’s position on a topic only to find it had changed and nobody had bothered to let him know.â€
Only a f*ckup like The Boy King would keep his front man uninformed.
January 30th, 2007 at 10:25 amhuh… i see this item did not get posted… try, try again…
the drum beats get louder…
Report: U.S., Iran at war by proxy
WASHINGTON, Jan. 30 (UPI) — The United States and Iran are fighting a war by proxy within the Iraqi conflict, a CBS News report said Tuesday.
[...]
Middle East analyst Jon Alterman told the network U.S. military raids on Iranian offices in Iraq have turned up computer discs that list inventories of small arms Iran has provided to Shiite militias.
[...]
http://www.upi.com/NewsTrack/view.php?StoryID=20070130-081619-1031r
who is “jon alterman”?
January 30th, 2007 at 10:25 am.
The Army and Marine Corps “are short thousands of vehicles, armor kits and other equipment needed to supply†the extra 21,500 troops President Bush plans to send to Iraq. “It’s inevitable that that has to happen, unless five brigades of up-armored Humvees fall out of the sky,†one senior Army official said.
This is complete and total bullshit. Why does the Pentagon hate our troops so much?
January 30th, 2007 at 10:26 am“would turn Iran into ‘the unambiguous adversary’ of the US.â€
Ummmmmm…And what was it when it held our citizens hostage for 444 days, supplied terrorists that murdered our Marines in Beirut in 1983, our airmen at Khobar Towers in 1996, etc.????
Our buddy?
January 30th, 2007 at 10:26 amThanks so much, Jay Randal, for posting info of the March protests-
We are already planning to attend. My b-day is the day of the anniversary of this illgal war, and I asked my kids to attend the march with me, some friends, and their kids, as the only b-day gift Mom wants. We just started planning to go after this weekend’s protest ( we were unable to attend this weeknd).
Please continue to spread the word of this protest. If the country tends to keep heading in the directions we are going, something tells me this will be a huge protest. I feel just the exectuive order of late should stir some to attend and protest.
I just wish we could all do more…
January 30th, 2007 at 10:29 am#29 hacker bob
It is funny that people keep saying that we are out of troops. The Marine Corps has 66,000 that have not served a single tour in Iraq OR Afghanistan yet.
I’m guessing most of them aren’t sitting around twiddling their thumbs waiting for somebody to find them something to do. There are troops deployed all over the world. I don’t think we should consider them all to be reserves. They have jobs to do where they’re at, and I’d hate to see us open up a hole in our defenses just to keep pursuing Bush’s losing non-strategy.
January 30th, 2007 at 10:33 amExley,
What were we to Iran in 1953? Their friend in overthrowing their government and installing our “choice” into power and thus fomenting hatred and derision of those in the ME for the US?
Were we their buddy?
We can play this game of geopolitics and who is “eviler” (bushism) all day if you want.
January 30th, 2007 at 10:34 amper #15 vance’s contribution:
copy and paste that first sentence into your google search bar and you’ll see this tripe is making the blog rounds… but the only one i recognized, in 2 pages of hits, was townhall…
so don’t look for any legitimate sources… but you knew that…
January 30th, 2007 at 10:35 am.
If you want to start your crap about how bad the US Military is, let me know now, so I can get an early start about the so called peace activists.
Comment by hacker bob
Ha ha ha. So, your defense on my statement is crapping on peace activists??? Im sorry for your kids. What are you teaching them? That war is good and peace is bad? Come on, bob. Get a grip. GI Joe was only a cartoon and Top Gun´s Maverick was a fictional character cuz no pilot can do 5 migs alone.
January 30th, 2007 at 10:35 amComment by Juan C
Actually, I teach them that war is bad, and vilence is bad. But I also teach them that sometime you have to fight. And you have to uphold an oath. You have to fulfill a contract.
Sorry Juan, nations (Governments) do not solve their difference over tea and cookies. Bitch about the Administration all you want, leave the troops alone. They are doing their job.
January 30th, 2007 at 10:41 amtry, try again… 3rd time to get this up… this time without the link:
the drumbeats are getting louder:
Report: U.S., Iran at war by proxy
WASHINGTON, Jan. 30 (UPI) — The United States and Iran are fighting a war by proxy within the Iraqi conflict, a CBS News report said Tuesday.
[...]
Middle East analyst Jon Alterman told the network U.S. military raids on Iranian offices in Iraq have turned up computer discs that list inventories of small arms Iran has provided to Shiite militias.
[...]
upi dot com…
question – who is “jon alterman”?
January 30th, 2007 at 10:42 am.
Post 53 Kat > I commend you for planning to go to the March 17th protest at the Pentagon. The rally is going to be an historic event. Americans will know who the real leaders in Democrat party are by who shows up. Yes I will continue to spread the word about it and your birthday there will be the most fulfilling one of your life.
January 30th, 2007 at 10:42 amtry, try again… 3rd, 4th time to get this up… this time without the link:
the drumbeats are getting louder:
Report: U.S., Iran at war by proxy
WASHINGTON, Jan. 30 (UPI) — The United States and Iran are fighting a war by proxy within the Iraqi conflict, a CBS News report said Tuesday.
[...]
Middle East analyst Jon Alterman told the network U.S. military raids on Iranian offices in Iraq have turned up computer discs that list inventories of small arms Iran has provided to Shiite militias.
[...]
united press international dot com…
question – who is “jon alterman”?
January 30th, 2007 at 10:46 am.
Sorry, “vilence” should be “violence”
Damn cold fingers.
January 30th, 2007 at 10:46 am#52 Exley
“would turn Iran into ‘the unambiguous adversary’ of the US.â€
Ummmmmm…And what was it when it held our citizens hostage for 444 days, supplied terrorists that murdered our Marines in Beirut in 1983, our airmen at Khobar Towers in 1996, etc.????
Our buddy?
Apparently, Iran was Reagan’s buddy when they held onto the hostages until after the ‘80 election to help him win. I guess they were still Reagan’s buddy in ‘85 when they went along with Ollie North’s nifty idea to fund an illegal war against Nicaragua in exchange for TOW and Hawk missiles and aircraft parts. And they must have been Israel’s buddy then, too, because it was Israel that delivered those missiles to them for us. Cheney must have thought Iran was a friend. He had Halliburton doing business with them right up until he left the company to become vice president.
Isn’t it funny how we can be such good friends and mortal enemies at the same time? Cracks me up.
January 30th, 2007 at 10:46 amBitch about the Administration all you want, leave the troops alone. They are doing their job.
Comment by hacker bob
I think its the other way around. Your ideology should stop f*cking this planet. Otherwise, you would see equally good that chinese army start dropping bombs over your place. Hey, dont blame the chinese army. Blame the administration. Can you understand me what I am saying that you are a hypocrite? Becuz you support things that you wouldnt want for yourself.
January 30th, 2007 at 10:47 am# 59 Jay, yup that is the one we are planning to attend. Our rep is Murtha and I think it would be very interesting to have him attend! I will cetainly email him about it.
I want my kids to witness American history taking place, and (hopefully) real democracy in action. I want them to be part of what true Amrican patriotism is all about…
Thanks agian Jay!
January 30th, 2007 at 10:49 amDlet,
I have stated here many times that the U.S. support of the British-initiated coup in 1953 was one of the — if not THE biggest — mistakes in U.S. foreogn policy history — A short-sighted action for which we are still paying the price more than half-a-century later….But, the fact is that the government of Iran has been an unambiguous U.S. adversary since 1979.
January 30th, 2007 at 10:49 amSorry Juan, nations (Governments) do not solve their difference over tea and cookies.
Comment by hacker bob
That is a really sad insight into your outlook on international politics.
And you have to uphold an oath. You have to fulfill a contract.
Don’t forget to teach that if you swear an oath to or sign a contract with an entity and that entity lies and deceives you then that oath or contract is null and void.
January 30th, 2007 at 10:50 amWait Exley I thought AlQueda (Sunni) was responsible for Khober Towers? was it really Shiite Iran? I’m so confused that eventually I’m just going to lump all these people with different agendas and allegiances into one homogenous bucket to make it easier on me. Ok from now on whomever is the villain of the moment is behind whatever events in history we decide to bring up. Also regardless of who we talk about we lump them all into the grouping of Islamic extremists, it will save me so much energy not having to think about it.
Hacker Bob, While it may be true that there are many marines who have not yet gone to Iraq, isn’t it also true that they are not necessarily in combat units either? How about recruiters? Drill Instructors? Command staff at the pentagon? The people who run bases, the instructors (not DI’s) at the various marine schools, embassy duty, ship board duty. Face it when you present a number of 66,000 marines having never been to Iraq, you are being somewhat dishonest. These people are not all in traditional combat units. Many of them are not in position to go without suitable replacements to take their places. By the way, where did you get that figure from?
January 30th, 2007 at 10:50 amBitch about the Administration all you want, leave the troops alone. They are doing their job.
Comment by hacker bob — January 30, 2007 @ 10:41 am
that is a good point – one we preach here quite frequently, would like to say always… i make a point of it, myself…
PRO TROOPS – ANTI BUSH
January 30th, 2007 at 10:50 amExley,
January 30th, 2007 at 10:51 amAnd we of them since ‘53.
Bravo to you Kat > you are a patriot!
January 30th, 2007 at 10:54 am…Becuz you support things that you wouldnt want for yourself.
Comment by Juan C — January 30, 2007 @ 10:47 am
on the other hand, i can understand this perspective also…
January 30th, 2007 at 10:55 am#67 Katy,
Exactly!!!
Thanks wholeheartedly for again pointing it out.
January 30th, 2007 at 10:56 amDon’t forget to teach that if you swear an oath to or sign a contract with an entity and that entity lies and deceives you then that oath or contract is null and void.
Comment by dlet — January 30, 2007 @ 10:50 am
that’s the most important point in this whole argument…
January 30th, 2007 at 10:58 amComment by Juan C
The Chinese Army would be carrying out the will of the Chinese Government. Would would have to fight the Chinese Army in order to have an effect on the Chinese Government. I would blame the Chinese Government for ordering the Chinese Army into action against us.
You, on the other hand, would invite the Chinese Government in for tea and want to talk about your feelings. All the while, you would blame the Soldiers for acting on the will of the Government. Here is what you fail to understand;
SOLDIERS DO NOT DECIDE WHO WE GO TO WAR WITH. That is decided by the President and (supposedly) Congress. Not the Generals, not the Troops.
The Administration is to blame for us being in Iraq. Not the military.
January 30th, 2007 at 10:59 amMark,
9/11 Panel Links Al Qaeda, Iran
Bin Laden May Have Part in Khobar Towers, Report Says
By Dan Eggen
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, June 26, 2004; Page A12
The commission investigating the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks has concluded that Osama bin Laden’s terrorist network had long-running contacts with Iraq’s neighbor and historic foe, Iran.
Al Qaeda, the commission determined, may even have played a “yet unknown role” in aiding Hezbollah militants in the 1996 bombing of the Khobar Towers complex in Saudi Arabia, an attack the United States has long blamed solely on Hezbollah and its Iranian sponsors.
The notion that bin Laden may have had a hand in the Khobar bombing would mark a rare operational alliance between Sunni and Shiite Muslim groups that have historically been at odds. That possibility, largely overlooked in the furor of new revelations released by the commission last week, comes amid worsening relations between the United States and Iran, which announced on Thursday that it would resume building equipment necessary for a nuclear weapons program …
In relation to Iran, commission investigators said intelligence “showed far greater potential for collaboration between Hezbollah and al Qaeda than many had previously thought.” Iran is a primary sponsor of Hezbollah, or Party of God, the Lebanon-based anti-Israel group that has been designated a terrorist organization by the United States …
But perhaps most startling was the commission’s finding that bin Laden may have played a role in the Khobar attack. Although previous court filings and testimony indicated that al Qaeda and Iranian elements had contacts during the 1990s, U.S. authorities have not publicly linked bin Laden or his operatives to that strike, which killed 19 U.S. servicemen. A June 2001 indictment of 14 defendants in the case makes no mention of al Qaeda or bin Laden and lays the organizational blame for the attacks solely on Hezbollah and Iran.
January 30th, 2007 at 10:59 amJay,
Seriously, it is the least we can do.
I really wish we coudl do more to wake up Congress, besides protest, signing petitions, emailing them, calling them etc….
I am not at all sure if Congress “gets it” yet.
What warms my heart is that the American people finally seem to get it.
January 30th, 2007 at 10:59 amtry, try again… 3rd, 4th, 5th time to get this up… this time without the link … copy and paste it into search:
the drumbeats are getting louder:
Report: U.S., Iran at war by proxy
WASHINGTON, Jan. 30 (UPI) — The United States and Iran are fighting a war by proxy within the Iraqi conflict, a CBS News report said Tuesday.
[...]
Middle East analyst Jon Alterman told the network U.S. military raids on Iranian offices in Iraq have turned up computer discs that list inventories of small arms Iran has provided to Shiite militias.
[...]
question – who is that analyst? sounds familiar…
January 30th, 2007 at 11:02 amKat > the protest at the Pentagon could be the deciding turning point that awakens the Congress to end the Iraq Fiasco War and to impeach Dubya!
January 30th, 2007 at 11:05 amAnd today –
“Specter: Bush not sole ‘decision-maker’”
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070130/ap_on_go_co/congress_war_powers;_ylt=ApDvg69KR4U6mrRCm5I3Rtes0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTA2Z2szazkxBHNlYwN0bQ–
Yeah and as usual, Specter will be for his own statement, before he turns aginst it when he votes on anyhing remotely close to even reigning in the powers of the executive branch.
We in Pa need to make sure he gets a very long vacation – starting Nov ‘08!
January 30th, 2007 at 11:06 am#76
I think so too… and if we engage Iran (Syri, Sudan, etc) in any way before then, or if anything to do with Iraq and redeployement is not handled by then, I can see how people would turn out en masse. The American people have decided how they feel about the entire situation – it is the MSM press, the admin and some of the Congress who cannot see what Americans can easily distinguish as the right things to do.
January 30th, 2007 at 11:10 amComment by Mark
I got these figures from an ALLMar (All Marine)message last week by CMC. I am active duty Marine Corps.
How about recruiters? Drill Instructors? Command staff at the pentagon? The people who run bases, the instructors (not DI’s) at the various marine schools, embassy duty, ship board duty.
My numbers are honest. All these duties you listed are TEMPORARY Duties. For instance, Recruiters,DI’s, and Embassy Gards are on a 3 year tour for that duty. We have been in Afghanistan for 5+ years and Iraq for about 4 years.
January 30th, 2007 at 11:11 amlies and deceives you then that oath or contract is null and void.
Here is the thing, No where in the contract does it say that you will not be used in Combat.
How has the contract been violated or nullified?
January 30th, 2007 at 11:13 amThat is decided by the President and (supposedly) Congress. Not the Generals, not the Troops.
January 30th, 2007 at 11:14 amThe Administration is to blame for us being in Iraq. Not the military.
Comment by hacker bob
They should oppose. They are living, thinking beings. Stop treating them like they are stupid.
the protest at the Pentagon could be the deciding turning point that awakens the Congress to end the Iraq Fiasco War and to impeach Dubya!…Comment by Jay Randal
Especially if the information from the Libby trial continues to flow and implicate the White House even more. There is likely to be too much for Congress to ignore.
January 30th, 2007 at 11:16 am# 81,
… is precisely what I am hoping for!
It does not seem as though things are going so well for Scooter… I cannot wait to see what happens with Cheney and the others.
January 30th, 2007 at 11:19 amComment by Juan C,
Actually, Juan, You are treating them like they are stupid.
You do not think they realize what is going on. You think they do not realize what their rights are. They know these things. And they, WE, act according to what we know and what we have seen. We do not buy into the tripe from either political party, because both parties are screwing the troops. Period.
If you think we do not have eyes, ears, and brains of our own, you are greatly mistaken.
Just because YOU do not see the need to fight does not mean that WE do not see the need.
January 30th, 2007 at 11:22 amthis must be a serious story… i will try, try again… 3rd, 4th,5th time to get this up… this time paraphrased…
i read a story off the google news (upi) of a new report stating that the US and iran are fighting a proxy war with iran… according to a cbs news report on tuesday… an analyst told the network that raids on iranian offices have turned up evidence of iranian supplies…
this seems to conflict with the LA times story last week that those ties were questionable…
the drumbeats are getting louder…
January 30th, 2007 at 11:22 am.
It’s surprising how many conservatives commentators on this blog continue to bring up 9/11 (see Exley, above). If I were a conservative, I would stop reminding people of the day George W. Bush, the Neocons, and the rest of the Bush cronies utterly failed to stop the worst terrorist attack to ever occur on U.S. soil. Bush ignored repeated warnings and intelligence reports. Then, when told the United States was under attack, continued to read a children’s book for several minutes before responding.
Bush showed his true colors that day: an indecisive, incompetent idiot.
January 30th, 2007 at 11:24 amPRO TROOPS – ANTI BUSH
Comment by katy
And I thank you for that. can you please teach that to others?
January 30th, 2007 at 11:24 amWonder when her family got to Chile. I’m betting sometime in late 45.
Comment by klyde — January 30, 2007 @ 9:02 am
uh, NO… is that your bigotry showing?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Bachelet
Comment by katy
No it’s called a joke!
January 30th, 2007 at 11:30 amPolling of Active US Military troops, not Reserve or Guardsmen
Total responses, by branch:
Army: 436
USAF: 218
Navy: 201
Marines: 86
Coast Guard: 9
Of those,
480 have not been to Iraq. (Is it accurate to claim “a majority of the military have not been to Iraq�).
303 have been once,
119 twice,
24 three times,
24 more than three times.
Iraq service, by branch (Iraq tour data was missing from the results in four cases):
Army: 280 (64% of responses) to Iraq; 179 once, 78 twice, 15 three times, 8 claim 4 tours (note: normal Army rotations are 1 year – or longer. The war will reach four years duration this March)
USAF: 27% had been to Iraq – 34 once, 11 twice, 2×3, 12×4 (Air Force tours were 90 days at the beginning of the war but were extended to 120 days in 2004. Some USAF members serve 6 month or longer tours)
USMC: 70% – 39 once, 17 twice, 4×3, none claim 4 (Marines generally serve 8 month tours)
Navy: 34% – 49×1 13×2 3×3 4×4 (Navy tour lengths vary by position)
Coast Guard: none to Iraq
Some specific questions and responses:
QUESTION ONE
If you had to decide today, would you re-enlist or — if an officer — extend your commitment?
The purpose of this question is to determine if Iraq is “breaking†the military by attrition. The answer appears to be “noâ€.
Of the total responses, 200 (21%) indicated they would not extend/re-up. Of those, 94 (17 USAF, 6 Marines, 20 Navy, 50 Army, 1 Coast Guard) cited wars in Iraq and Afghanistan as one of the three primary reasons for their decision (an equal number cite pay). Of those 94, only 52 have been to Iraq.
Of all troops who’ve been to Iraq, 104 of 470 (22%) answered no.
Seventy-five of 280 Army Iraq veterans answered no (27%) – but only 38 (14%) cite Iraq/Afghan wars as a reason.
Throughout all services, 59 of those who answered yes cite those same wars as one reason for doing so. Re-enlistment rates have exceeded goals for the duration of the Iraq war – so far.
QUESTION TWO
Regardless of whether you think the U.S. should have gone to war in Iraq, how likely is the U.S. to succeed?
All responses:
Very likely to succeed: 126
Somewhat likely to succeed: 355
Not very likely to succeed: 291
Not at all likely to succeed: 95
No opinion – remainder
Iraq veterans:
Very likely to succeed: 68
Somewhat likely to succeed: 186
Not very likely to succeed: 139
Not at all likely to succeed: 49
No opinion – remainder
These numbers – while much more positive than results from civilian polls – probably also reflect an assumption that then-current strategy would remain constant – an assumption already proven faulty. Based on responses to the next question, the results might be even more favorable if this same question were asked today.
QUESTION THREE
We currently have 145,000 troops in Iraq and Kuwait. How many troops do you think we should have there?
All responses / Iraq vets
0: 121 / 60
0-50,000: 69 / 42
50,000 – 144,000: 56 / 38
145,000: 122 / 70
146,000-200,000: 208 / 100
200,000+: 155 / 78
No opinion/don’t know: remainder
Note the largest group – both the Iraq vets and non-Iraq vets categories – favored (even prior to the announcement) an increase in troops consistent with the “surge†plan numbers.
http://www.mudvillegazette.com/archives/007649.html
January 30th, 2007 at 11:35 amPRO TROOPS – ANTI BUSH
Comment by katy
Hacker bob:
Thats the issue. I dont support troops.
I dont hate them, but I dont support people with guns. I dont support Columbian, Peruvian, Iranian, Russian, Argentinian, or US troops. I dont support warlords, drugdealers, war companies, etc. I support teachers, firefighters, people with disabilities, single mothers, orphans, THOSE ARE THE REAL HEROES IN ANY SOCIETY. Why would I idolize a guy with an AK47? In any case, he is more protected than any of us, why should I feel a special feeling about a guy who is allowed to kill other people? Im anti-military. The world most henoius acts are being commited by armies, why should I support an insititution that does that? You are being told all the time that some poor kid with no chances in life that took the oath and now lives in a HUmmer and carries a gun is a hero. Well, I would say that instead of praising that boy, you should offer him better possibilities in life and protest against a government that doesnt make a better life for all its citizens. All those maimed and dead US soldiers should have been here, having a good time with their families, getting education, living a fulfilled life, but they wont. It seems to me that you prefer to regard them as heroes than providing them before anything with opportunities for a better life.
You can make all the wars you want. You have explained to me that you have a need to fight. Human life can do better. Eastern cultures knew a long time ago that the goal of any warrior was peace. Not victory but peace.
January 30th, 2007 at 11:46 amI already answered the question about the source of the Clinton stats, but I dont see the message any more.
This was the page, I found it from Google. I have no idea what the rest of the site is like, I was rushing to get to work and didn’t look.
http://emporium.turnpike.net/P/ProRev/wwstats.htm
January 30th, 2007 at 11:46 amThe rest of the world has it right, when they consider the United States to be such a threat to Middle East stability. One would never know it, however, when one listens to the corporate news. NBC reported just this morning that the U.S. is upset with Iran for furnishing weapons and funds to continue violence in Iraq. Wasn’t it just a mere two weeks ago, that news surfaced about the Pentagon selling arms and artillary to Iran and China? So, exactly WHO is calling the kettle black, here? Personally, I stopped listening to a lot of the journalistic media a long time ago, and get my news from other, more reliable sources.
January 30th, 2007 at 11:51 amSUPPORT THE TROOPS.
NOT THE WAR.
January 30th, 2007 at 11:52 amHere is the thing, No where in the contract does it say that you will not be used in Combat.
Comment by hacker bob
I never stated that that was what they lied to recruits about. Even though there have been reported stories of such things happening.
The administration has used a legal theory known as the unitary executive theory, to explain that in his duty as Commander-in-Chief the President, with his inherent powers, cannot be bound by law or Congress.
That is the lie of which I am talking about. Every servicemember should read that and quit following this madman. Just stop.
January 30th, 2007 at 11:54 am#88 Vince P
Note the largest group – both the Iraq vets and non-Iraq vets categories – favored (even prior to the announcement) an increase in troops consistent with the “surge†plan numbers.
Let me interpret that for you: If you are in Iraq and you aren’t leaving anytime soon, do you want more targets other than yourself for insurgents, militia, al Qaeda, etc. to shoot at and bomb? Or do you want fewer targets other than yourself for insurgents, militia, al Qaeda, etc. to shoot at and bomb? Or, do you like it right where it’s at now?
Or to put it another way, since you’re stuck in Iraq and aren’t leaving anytime soon, would you like more help in fighting off the attacks, less help in fighting off the attacks, or just about the same amount of help?
Here’s a neat idea for a survey. Why don’t you poll chickenhawks to find out the reason that they feel they can urge others to go to war and accuse people of being unpatriotic or surrendering when they oppose it, but they won’t go fight it themselves and/or wouldn’t when they had the chance.
January 30th, 2007 at 11:57 amComment by Juan C — January 30, 2007 @ 11:46 am
wow… i’m impressed, again…
from your south american perspective, even more relavent…
gotta go for the day…
January 30th, 2007 at 11:59 amkeep up the good work, all…
Comment by DieNowForPeace
Thanks.
January 30th, 2007 at 12:05 pmhttp://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2007/s1836250.htm
January 30th, 2007 at 12:08 pmWeather experts meet in Paris to discuss climate change
ABC Online – 1 hour ago
TONY EASTLEY: This week, hundreds of the world’s weather experts are meeting in Paris to nut out an authoritative report on the affects of global warming.
>
http://www.voanews.com/english/2007-01-29-voa44.cfm
Climate Experts Meet to Discuss Long-Awaited Global Warming Report Voice of America
>
http://www.boston.com/ news/ world/ europe/ articles/ 2007/ 01/ 29/ world_leaders_urged_to_act_on_global_warming_study
World leaders urged to act on global warming study Boston Globe
Excellent post Juan.
January 30th, 2007 at 12:08 pmNational Guard was never supposed to be used overseas. Now, we also have some Coast Guard out in the Med Sea/P Gulf/Straits of Hormuz – whereever they are today.
Would one consider those facts in deciding, if in fact, troops were lied to about their sevice when they enlisted?
January 30th, 2007 at 12:09 pmKat: The troops are doing the job they signed up to do. Let them worry about themselves. They kill people for a living, I’m sure your “assistance” isn’t required.
January 30th, 2007 at 12:12 pmchimpeach: Until you commit suicide, you shouldn’t be calling for our national suicide.
I wonder what dimestore word I can invent for that…. oh, I’m not a Leftist, I actually have to type more than a one word cliche.
January 30th, 2007 at 12:14 pmExcellent post Juan.
Comment by ForTruth
wow… i’m impressed, again…
from your south american perspective, even more relavent…
Comment by katy
Thanks. Hope Im not a cast away after that.
January 30th, 2007 at 12:18 pmLike a 2 word cliche, like “dimestore word”?
January 30th, 2007 at 12:18 pmJuan,
Who do you think removes the warloards, etc.? It is guys with guns.
You act like I do not support the same things that you do. I do not proclaim that just because you are in a uniforn that you are a hero. We are surrounded every day by real heros. Personally, my children are my heros. Every day they learn, grow, say no to drugs, and work hard to improve themselves. They are smart, beautiful, ambitious, and charitable people.
You like to bring up “some kid living in a HMMWV (Proper acronym)”. He made the choice to join the military. Do you have any idea why people join the Military? It is not because they love to wage war. Many are trying to improve their lives. They are getting income, learning a trade, getting college money, providing for families, etc. I personally intended on joining for only 4 years, learn a trade, go to school, and start a family. That was 14 years ago. I like the lifestyle. It has given me opportunities I would not have had otherwise.
You are right when you say that the true goal of any warrior is peace. But you can not always acomplish peace by throwing down your arms. Sometime you have to fight for peace, as stupid as that sounds. The Eastern warriors knew tht as well.
January 30th, 2007 at 12:19 pmthe world’s weather experts are meeting in Paris to nut out an authoritative report
That doesn’t sound good!
January 30th, 2007 at 12:29 pm#105
My “assistance”? Somewhat of a childish remark. Getting a little touchy there?
Do some reserach on how Generals often “feel” about war. They are well versed in the reailites of war.
Use “the Goggle” to enlighten yourself.
I know of very few who join the military for the sole purpose of “killing people” What a farce that train of thought is….
January 30th, 2007 at 12:29 pmWho do you think removes the warloards, etc.? It is guys with guns.
A better question: Who gave them the weaponry?
See? You see consequences. I rather talk about causes.
I agree with the rest of your post. Its moving the way you talk about your kids. Congrats on that.
January 30th, 2007 at 12:31 pmHacker Bob, I didn’t realize you are a “lifer”.
January 30th, 2007 at 12:32 pmJust from my own experience, the lifers I knew were pretty much unable to cut it on the outside.
Just sayin.
#106 Vince P
chimpeach: Until you commit suicide, you shouldn’t be calling for our national suicide.
Feel free to elaborate on that. As it stands, it looks like you’re comparing service to your country with suicide.
January 30th, 2007 at 12:33 pmMeant “THE GOOGLE”, lol!
Sorry about my typos btw….
I can spell… it seems I cannot see the screen too well lately though.
January 30th, 2007 at 12:37 pmHacker Bob, I didn’t realize you are a “liferâ€.
Just from my own experience, the lifers I knew were pretty much unable to cut it on the outside.
Just sayin.
Comment by RUCerious
The sad thing is, I had, and still have no intentions of being a “lifer”. I’ll quit when I stop having fun and can’t keep up with the 18 year olds. I did come in late, 23, so I know what the real world is like.
BTW, I am more Hawkeye Pearce than I am George Patton.
January 30th, 2007 at 12:37 pmchimpeach: Thanks for the invitation to elaborate.
January 30th, 2007 at 12:38 pmDid you check out the pic of Chile’s prez? Wonder when her family got to Chile. I’m betting sometime in late 45.
Comment by klyde — January 30, 2007 @ 9:02 am
From wikipedia:
Bachelet was born in Santiago, the second child of anthropologist Ãngela Jeria Gómez and Air Force Brigadier General Alberto Bachelet MartÃnez. Her paternal great-great-grandfather, Joseph Bachelet Lapierre, was a French wine merchant from Chassagne-Montrachet who emigrated to Chile with his Parisian wife in 1860 hired as a wine-making expert by the Subercaseaux vineyards. Bachelet Lapierre’s son, Germán—Michelle Bachelet’s great-grandfather—, was born in Chile and married to a French-Swiss woman. Of Greek ancestors, her maternal grandfather, Máximo Jeria Chacón, was the first person to receive a degree in agronomic engineering in Chile and funded several agronomy schools in the country.[2]
Probably her family is Chilean before your family was from the USA, klyde.
And, about the implied racism of your comment, a lot of south american and spaniard people is blond and red haired, since northern germanic tribes reached the Iberian Penninsula two thousand years ago.
And, in the other hand, the better rocket dessigners (V1, V2) of the nazi germany emigrated to the USA, where they started your rocket technology. Werner Von Braun comes to my mind as a first example.
So much for your ‘45 reference.
January 30th, 2007 at 12:39 pmA better question: Who gave them the weaponry?
See? You see consequences. I rather talk about causes.
I agree with the rest of your post. Its moving the way you talk about your kids. Congrats on that.
Comment by Juan C
Thanks Juan.
Where do the warloards and drug dealers get the guns? Usually from corrupt governments. Sometimes thefts and murder are involved. And there is this thing refered to as the “Black Market”.
January 30th, 2007 at 12:41 pm#105 Vince P
The troops are doing the job they signed up to do. Let them worry about themselves. They kill people for a living, I’m sure your “assistance†isn’t required.
When high school kids are being told by a recruiter about the swell non-combat jobs they can have in the military, they’re not being told that there’s nothing to stop them from being pulled from that non-combat job and sent into combat. They’re being told about all the great benefits they’ll have waiting for them when they get out after just putting in a few years of their lives in service to their country. They’re not being told about IRR and stop loss. If truth in advertising were enforced, the recruiters would have to admit that basically anything these kids are promised might very well turn out to be total bullshit.
And snide little f*cks like you snicker and say “Hey you signed the contract,” barely resisting the urge to finish it off with “Sucker!”
January 30th, 2007 at 12:42 pmhacker bob – that’s heartening to hear! What MOS? Is there a civilian counterpart to it?
January 30th, 2007 at 12:45 pmComment by Evil Spaniard
But he is right in the sense that Bachelet ethnicity does not represent the vast majority of chileans: a mix between mapuches, araucanos and european. Furthermore, Bachelet in no way represents the left. But I guess anything is better than Pinochet.
January 30th, 2007 at 12:46 pmWerner Von Braun comes to my mind as a first example.
Comment by Evil Spaniard
Don’t forget Dr. Strangelove or Herr Doktor Merkwürdigliebe.
January 30th, 2007 at 12:47 pmNBC report of US Troops in Iraq disgusted by you folks here
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyqk1LsCDBQ&eurl=
January 30th, 2007 at 12:49 pm#124 Vince P
You don’t seem to have too much to say for yourself. Everything you post comes from somewhere else. No original thoughts?
January 30th, 2007 at 12:53 pmTroop 1
“These people [the Iraqis?, the soldiers?] are dying you know what i’m saying. You may support or say you support the troops but you’re not supporting what they do. What they [mumble] and sweat for, what we believe for and what we die for. It dont make sense”
Troop 2
“One thing I dont like is when people back home say they support the troops but they dont support the war . If they’re gonna support us, then support us all the way ”
Troop 3
January 30th, 2007 at 12:58 pm“If they dont think we’re doing a good job then everything we’re doing here is in vein”
Iran (Muslims) have been at war with The United States (Christians) since the sixth century. We are only engaged in Crusades version 7.0. Same old theological war that has been going on for hundreds of years, you are just scared now, for some unexplained reason.
January 30th, 2007 at 12:58 pmNBC? Ask l’il Timmy Russert how NBC and he are doing, lol.
NBC = gov’t controlled media, just readthe Libby trial testimony!
I recently had some local guy send me a link to glennback.com vid as undeniable “proof” that we are “winning the war and every battle in it”.
Hilarious!
January 30th, 2007 at 12:58 pmhacker bob – that’s heartening to hear! What MOS? Is there a civilian counterpart to it?
Comment by RUCerious
I am by MOS a Logistics Vehicle Operator (Heavy truck driver), But for the last couple of years I have been doing I.T./ Information Management (that is why I have so much time on the computer).
And I did a stint as a Recruiter, so shower me with distain now. But it was BEFORE Iraq.
January 30th, 2007 at 1:01 pmchimp: It’s pretty hypocritical of you to accuse me of no original thought, considering you folks only talk in the same clichés and name-calling, in fact your name is a years-old insult On this thread my copy and pasting is a little more than I normally do, but my point wasn’t so much to share my highly esteemed opinion, but to provide some more information of world events so that these calls for US defeat is put in context of the challenges out there.
January 30th, 2007 at 1:01 pmHacker Bob, you using ADA?
January 30th, 2007 at 1:05 pmBobbo, I would never shower you with disdain.
January 30th, 2007 at 1:06 pmMy recruiter lied his ass of to me, but that was between he and I.
“The Army and Marine Corps “are short thousands of vehicles, armor kits and other equipment needed to supply†the extra 21,500 troops President Bush plans to send to Iraq.”
During WWII, a war of equal length to aWol’s bogus Iraq war, we mobilized the homefront and produced the necessary war materials.
What’s up with our inability to arm the troops this time?
January 30th, 2007 at 1:06 pm#123 And Dr Fronkonstin (not Frankenstein) from the Young Frankenstein movie :P
January 30th, 2007 at 1:07 pmSpundge.. I’m scared? What of the people who won’t even admit there’s a return of Jihad, or who want to view in a Marxist POV, or who think it’s the US fault, and not a natural outcome of the political ideology particular to Islam.
What accounts for so many people who claim to be smart being so delusional?
That’s part of my motivation here.. maybe one person will be motivated to look into it on their own and begin to understand the crisis the world is in.
January 30th, 2007 at 1:07 pmKat: The troops are doing the job they signed up to do. Let them worry about themselves. They kill people for a living, I’m sure your “assistance†isn’t required.
Comment by Vince P —
Tell that to my dwindling SSI account. Or will you do your patriotic duty and pay my share for me?
January 30th, 2007 at 1:08 pmExley #77, Hmmm, lets see…The article you provided has some pretty determinative language.
…may even have played a “yet undetermined role”
Bin laden may have had a hand…
That possibility…
intelligence “showed a far greater potential for collaboration…”
Bin Laden May have played a role….
That is pretty definitive, good enough for the right wing, and just as solid and definitive as their Iraq/WMD/911/AlQueda links.
#83 all tours are limited in duration. My buddy was a drill instructor and wanted to go, he was denied be cause he is considered essential. My other friend did not want to go so he got into a recruiter slot and while he may be in one spot for a certain period of time, he will transfer to another similar slot when this tour is done. There are all kinds of ways. My point, apparently missed, is that the whole damned corps can not be sent because there are certain positions that always must be filled. Your 66,000 comment implied that there were 66,000 combat troops sitting around while others are going over and over, that is simply not the case. Regardless of how many teeth the beast has, it always has to have it’s tail functioning and healthy.
So I’m guessing Vinnie P is in favor of the escalation. I will also guess that in the not to distant future we will learn that he is either active duty, recently retired or served long ago and is now too old to be a vet. Regardless, Vinnie, so you think the president was wrong back in 2002/2003 when he fired generals for saying we needed more troops? or was he wrong when he said we had the right number of troops and that as they stand up we will stand down? Have none stood up? Or are they sitting down ion record numbers. Was he wrong when we temporarily increased our troop numbers for the elections? (Psst that temporary increase is still in effect)
January 30th, 2007 at 1:09 pmHedley: Well thankfully you can lobby your new Democratic Congress to fund the required purchases.
January 30th, 2007 at 1:10 pmmy highly esteemed opinion
Anyone who says or posts this ranks right up there with someone who says or posts “trust me”. Sub-basement level, if that.
January 30th, 2007 at 1:12 pmBarfly: SSI is a bankrupt system. Take responsbility for your own lack of planning.
I recall the Democrats silenced the discussion on SSI a few years ago when a discussion was attempted.
January 30th, 2007 at 1:13 pmSpundge.. I’m scared? What of the people who won’t even admit there’s a return of Jihad, or who want to view in a Marxist POV, or who think it’s the US fault, and not a natural outcome of the political ideology particular to Islam.
OK, you’ve now covered the pundits talking points. How will this Jihad be accomplished, when even the differing factions of Islam cannot agree upon who has historical legitimacy and who doesn’t? This Jihad you mention is but one form of Islam, and not followed by all, or even most muslims. Your “Jihad” is just more frightened bleating from someone too lazy to do their own research.
January 30th, 2007 at 1:16 pmVince: ““If they dont think we’re doing a good job then everything we’re doing here is in veinâ€
In vein???!!! Look, I know illegal drug use is rampant in the armed forces these days, but I don’t think all the soldiers are needle-freaks. You certainly don’t have much respect for the troops, Vince.
January 30th, 2007 at 1:17 pmSocial Security is not a “bankrupt system.” That is a lie. In fact, simply removing the ceiling on contributions would make it solvent for the next 200 years.
January 30th, 2007 at 1:18 pmMark: The mistakes from the past are done. I’m not going to defend them. They are what they are. What I do know is that leaving Iraq would be catostrophic. Everyone normal realizes this.
You think you’re clever because in 20/20 hindsight the errors are clear? Is your goal to help find the right solution? I doubt it. Your goal is to cripple our ablity to fullfil our responsibilities and that goal is way more maligant than any mismanagement that happened.
Our enemies see the way you folks attack Bush (and lets be honest, you would be attacking him no matter what he did) and they are counting on that. Their goal is total internal conflict and division , leading to a retreat of American forces in the areas the Jihadis want to take over.
Do you willingly perform this for them? How does it feel to be doing exactly what they are hoping you will do so that they can destory the United States?
The Jihadis are the ones you should hate. That should be the primary hatred you folks should maintain, not hatred of your own countyr.
January 30th, 2007 at 1:18 pmSSI is a bankrupt system. Take responsbility for your own lack of planning.
I recall the Democrats silenced the discussion on SSI a few years ago when a discussion was attempted.
Comment by Vince P
The only thing bankrupt is your understanding of the topic. And SSI carve-outs would have gutted the system even faster, Brainiac.
January 30th, 2007 at 1:19 pmAnd don’t worry about me – worry about your own retirement when your 401K goes belly-up in the next depression.
Bluedog: grow up.
January 30th, 2007 at 1:19 pm#126 Vince P
The Military Times polled troops a month ago:
Percentage of respondents approving of Bush’s handling of the war: 37%
Percentage of respondents disapproving of Bush’s handling of the war: 42%
Uh-oh. Those troops don’t support the troops.
January 30th, 2007 at 1:20 pmSocail Security is currently not is not a bankrupt system; that is a myth perpetrated by the Neo-cons, in order to get their way in attempting to privatize the Socail Secuirty. Projections for the SSA do not in any way indicate pending bankruptcy.
Follow the money – who stands to benefit greatly from the privatization of Social Security? Hmmm, would that be the same people making a bundle off of this war? How about their buddies on Wall Street, Big Business, etc…
January 30th, 2007 at 1:20 pmSSI is not a “bankrupt system.”
January 30th, 2007 at 1:22 pm141: I’ve been researching Islam since 1998. I’m done being politically correct about it. It is a evil system. And frankly I’m sick of saying “Of course not every Muslim is like that only 9432789 of them are”
Until the Muslims start burning down embassies of countries that have alledgedly “hijacked” Islam , then the Moderate Muslim so many are hoping for is a myth.
Anyway, I doubt you much about Islam other than to have your PC sensibilities tickled because I didn’t give lip service to the standard disclaimers.
Oh well… when a Non-Muslim is allowed to go into Mecca then maybe I’ll be convinced there is hope for reform after all.
January 30th, 2007 at 1:23 pmchimp: I dont approve of the way the war was handled either. That doesn’t lead to the implied conclusion that therefore I want us to withdraw.
January 30th, 2007 at 1:23 pm#130 Vince P
My point: Do you want to try to advance an argument or do you just want to post your little factoids.
January 30th, 2007 at 1:24 pmNo, Vince, I think it’s time for you to grow up. A cultist is, in many ways, like a child. He sees his cult leader as a father figure and assumes that the leader is faultless. No facts will deter the cultist from believing his cult leader is infallible.
January 30th, 2007 at 1:25 pmSorry for the typing mistakes. I am trying to do my job too and since I’m a programmer, without a compilier the errors slip by.
January 30th, 2007 at 1:26 pm#130
calls for US defeat
And, if you’re going to argue with a strawman, you don’t have to come here to do it. You and he can have a nice little battle of wits in the privacy of your own home with anyone else having to witness it.
January 30th, 2007 at 1:26 pmVince, why bother? You think we’re no better than traitors, and we regard you as nothing more than an overly-emotional child. We will never see your loopy way of thinking, so why bother?
January 30th, 2007 at 1:27 pmDamn Vince, is your compiler french?
January 30th, 2007 at 1:29 pmSorry for the typing mistakes. I am trying to do my job too and since I’m a programmer, without a compilier the errors slip by.
Comment by Vince P —
Way to show case the ethical standards of the Right. I’ll bet your boss would love a transcript of your sessions here.
January 30th, 2007 at 1:29 pmBlue: you’re the blind cultist. I already said mistakes were made. I dont like how the war was being conducted. The domestic leadership is atrocious, the border being a mess is beyond disgraceful.
Somehow though I find it within myself to still realize no matter what we did wrong, our enemy started this and they won’t be stopping any time soon. Bush will be gone in two years and you’ll lose the Fifteen Minute Hate but the Jihadis will still be working at how they can eliminate the United States from being the impediment to thier religious obligation of worldwide domination of sharia.
January 30th, 2007 at 1:30 pmBarfly: Go ahead and do it.
January 30th, 2007 at 1:31 pmI am not an ADA guy. We have COTS (Commercial off the shelf) applications that use ADA, but nothing I do. The only “Big” application I co-wrote was all ASP/ASP.net stuff.
Bobbo, I would never shower you with disdain.
My recruiter lied his ass of to me, but that was between he and I.
Comment by RUCerious
I saw a lot of the “scumbag” Recrutiers when I was out there too. I was constantly hit on my evals for being “too honest”. Hey, I never said I was a “good” Recruiter.
January 30th, 2007 at 1:31 pmVince’s strange argument: the war may have been a mistake and it’s been handled improperly, but if you point that out, you are not supporting the troops.
Vince, I suggest you go over to Iraq and Afganistan Veterans of America (IAVA) and educate yourself on how intelligent veterans view your dear leader’s war.
January 30th, 2007 at 1:34 pmYou know what Bob? That is very refreshing to hear … “too honest”
Good for you!!! I do not think too many of us hear of anyone being too honest, even honest enough.
January 30th, 2007 at 1:35 pmVince: “Somehow though I find it within myself to still realize no matter what we did wrong, our enemy started this and they won’t be stopping any time soon.”
Our enemy right now are Iraqi insurgents. What war did they start with us, Vince. Which Iraqi attacked us? What group of Iraqis ever advocated the destruction of our system? When did Iraq declare war against the U.S?
We attacked Iraq, you dumbass cultist. Try making some sense.
January 30th, 2007 at 1:37 pmBlue: Again. the past is done. It really doesn’t matter what I think of it. We are where we are. When will you catch up with the present?
What none of you do is discuss the future. None of you state what you thikn will happen after we leave.
So I want to hear your (all/any of you) ideas on what you think might happen were the US to leave now or in a way where it’s clear we give up on Iraq and leave it to them to sort out.
January 30th, 2007 at 1:38 pmOh, by the way, I do believe this is the last year we give the Iraqi govt a chance to get its act straight. If they can’t get it together then I dont know what we’re going to do, but it would have to be totally different.
I see this entire world predictment as something like the Kobiyashi Maru training test in Star Trek II. There is no winning. There is only the best way to handle the no-win situation.
Iraq War or not, we would still be facing it because the Jihad forces were building for 100 years (and longer). Perhaps we made it happen faster, but it was coming.
Hopefully that explains me a bit more than the previous comments.
January 30th, 2007 at 1:42 pmComment by Mark
You are right, the beast has to have teeth and a tail.
The numbers I gave you point out that there are 66,000 Marines that have not been to Iraq. The AllMar I mentioned specifically mentioned those that are in “Special Duty Assignments.” It address Commanders and basically told them to make every effort to allow volunteers to go.
I am not saying that the entire “Corps” can go. I am saying that every Marine from Cook to Grunt is trained in combat skills. Then they are retrained. There is an old saying “Every Marine a Rifleman”.
Out of 66,000 Marines that have NOT been, I am sure we can find 4000 for the escalation (USMC required fill)
January 30th, 2007 at 1:46 pm#151 Vince P
I dont approve of the way the war was handled either. That doesn’t lead to the implied conclusion that therefore I want us to withdraw.
That’s almost a constructive comment. If there were any kind of an actual debate on the matter, it might be possible for a serious plan to be worked out. There are a million variations on what could be done short of an immediate and complete withdrawal. Redeployment to the borders might be a good start. Gen. Odom laid out a revised strategy in his senate testimony on Jan. 18th. Several others have done the same.
The problem is this: Bush will not listen to anyone else. He will not acknowledge that there might be a better way. And, his way is not a detailed plan at all, but just to keep on doing things the way they have been, playing it by ear, and never having to meet any kind of metrics to measure the success of his plan. In short, going along with Bush means there will never be an end to this that doesn’t involve the deaths of hundreds of thousands, if not millions, more people in the region.
Bush likes to use the term “public debate”. There is none. No debate is permitted to engage the president. The only debates are those held without any involvement from the White House. That immoveable object is about to meet an irresistible force.
January 30th, 2007 at 1:47 pmBobbo, I too am a .NET kinda guy – C# or VB??
January 30th, 2007 at 1:49 pmIf the U.S. pulls out, insurgents immediately lose their number one recruiting tool – killing the foreign invader. The government of Iraq is then free to nationalize their oil fields and split revenues throughout the country. All independent U.S. military contractors must also leave so Iraqis can be employed in the rebuilding of their country. The U.S. and other countries offer a suite of deals provided to offer incentives to the now-ruling Shiites to bring Sunnis into the process. We then take a fraction of what we’re spending in Iraq and beef up our own security here at home.
January 30th, 2007 at 1:52 pmRUC: I do C# Windows Apps, and components.
January 30th, 2007 at 1:54 pm#159 Vince P
Somehow though I find it within myself to still realize no matter what we did wrong, our enemy started this and they won’t be stopping any time soon.
You can’t have a rational discussion about this with a vague term like “our enemy”. If you mean al Qaeda, they’re barely a fraction of the ones we’re fighting in Iraq and they weren’t there when we invaded. You should start considering the real reasons that Bush pulled troops out of Afghanistan, where al Qaeda was, and started an invasion of Iraq. None of the reasons we were given has turned out to be true. And, we know there was a plan to invade Iraq even before 9/11 happened.
January 30th, 2007 at 1:54 pmComment by Vince P
I wouldn’t get involved but I just want to say one thing. No COUNTRY has hijacked Islam and more than a country has hijacked Christianity.
Groups have hijacked the ideas of Islam just like groups have hijacked the ideas of Christianity and bastardized them for their own purpose.
If a country hijacked Islam, we would be fighting nations, not terrorists.
January 30th, 2007 at 1:55 pmVince: “Again. the past is done. It really doesn’t matter what I think of it. We are where we are. When will you catch up with the present?”
What were your opinions on the “Whitewater” issue? Your repubs spent $70 million in taxpayer money investigating a 20-year old land deal.
Evidently, you think that an effective defense strategy for someone accused of crimes in the past should be ” it’s in the past. When will you prosecutors get into the present. My client is not commiting any crimes today…”
January 30th, 2007 at 1:57 pmComment by RUCerious
Mostly VB.
I am not the best at it by far. But I am self taught. Half of my day is spent on learning and then half the nights actually working on it.
January 30th, 2007 at 1:59 pmchimp: there’s plenty of blame to go around. That’s why I don’t agree with this constant non-stop Bush bashing. The govt has been failing since Carter. The Republicans are all talk, and the Democrats, well, they don’t even attempt to pretend to know what is going on. If Bush made mistakes then what have the Democrats been doing? I would think the stakes of this conflict would cause everyone in govt to raise about petty party politics and work toward improving things, but no one can say that Democrats have attempted anything close to being helpful, many of them deny there is an enemy out there who is acting on his own and not acting in response. I dont hear any Democrats protray our enemy as pursuing his own agenda.. instead it’s all “Because Bush did this, they did that”, it’s as if the enemy isn’t even a thinking entity, it just pavlovianly responds.
So yes, we all are aware of Bush’s failings. Despite them all, he is fighting these people (Jihadis) . It would be nice if the other side would help.
January 30th, 2007 at 1:59 pmHacker Bob: “If a country hijacked Islam, we would be fighting nations, not terrorists.”
Yes! Now, that’s called “critical thinking.”
January 30th, 2007 at 2:00 pmBlue: The Sunni Al Qaidi folks identified Iraq as the location of their next Jihad back in 1995.
They are going to attempt to take it.
Your scenerio is wishful thinking. I didn’t ask what you wanted to happen, I asked what you think will happen.
January 30th, 2007 at 2:02 pmIf a country hijacked Islam, we would be fighting nations, not terrorists.
Comment by hacker bob — January 30, 2007 @ 1:55 pm
Right on.
And this is the reason why the hysterical comments about “global jihad” are hollow: It is the same scare tactic the Bush administration craftily used to convince people the invasion of Iraq was necessary.
It dumps all Islamic groups in the same basket and ignores the differences between them. For example, about the only thing in common the Sri Lankan Tamil Tigers have in common with Hezbollah is their religion. To link them both into a “global Islamic” movement bent on world domination is oh so Elders-of-Zion-esque and apocalyptic….
January 30th, 2007 at 2:03 pmhacker: Nothing in Christianity’s history explains what Islam is doing today, bringing it up just distracts from examining Islam.
Islamic political violence is a result of the total adherence to the Koran, the Hadith and the Sirah.
January 30th, 2007 at 2:04 pmGregor: You are aware of the Umma aren’t you?
January 30th, 2007 at 2:05 pmYes! Now, that’s called “critical thinking.â€
Comment by Bluedog49
See, not as out of touch as some might think. (but still out of touch)
January 30th, 2007 at 2:05 pm“If Bush made mistakes then what have the Democrats been doing?”
Wow, what a weasly statement. I hate to break it to you, Vince, but conservatives WILL have to take responsibility for this. They have controlled congress for 12 years, the executive branch for 6 years and conservatives control a large swath of the judiciary and mainstream media. This war is Bush’s baby. He did it against the will of most experts on terrorism and continues it against the will of the majority of the people. He openly says he’s the one who makes the decisions, not congress. When will conservatives like you walk your walk and take responsiblility for something?
January 30th, 2007 at 2:06 pmvince: “Islamic political violence is a result of the total adherence to the Koran, the Hadith and the Sirah.”
That statement shows a profound misunderstanding of the state of Islam today and I’m not surprised. Islamasists comprise less than 1% of all Muslims. The vast majority of Muslims believe Islamacists are taking Koranic verse out of context.
January 30th, 2007 at 2:09 pmComment by Vince P
Please show one single example of a COUNTRY hijacking Islam.
January 30th, 2007 at 2:10 pmVince, I can use the Bible to justify killing unbelievers, keeping slaves and executing adulterers. Would you characterize Christians as holding these views today?
January 30th, 2007 at 2:11 pm[...]about the only thing in common the Sri Lankan Tamil Tigers have in common with Hezbollah is their religion.
Comment by Gregor Samsa — January 30, 2007 @ 2:03 pm
I am embarrassed…. I don’t know what I was thinking: the Tamil Tigers are not Islamic …. major “ooops!”
I want to change “Sri Lankan Tamil Tigers” to the “Islamic rebel groups in southern Thailand”.
Now let’s resume our regular blogging…..
January 30th, 2007 at 2:12 pmSince you are all experts at Islam.. tell me.. what is the term used to describe the letter the Iranian President wrote to Bush.
January 30th, 2007 at 2:12 pmI’m not discussing Christnianity. Stick to the topic.
January 30th, 2007 at 2:14 pmYou are aware of the Umma aren’t you?
Comment by Vince P — January 30, 2007 @ 2:05 pm
And you are aware of the wars that have erupted between Muslim nations through history, as well as the civil wars within Muslim countries -yes?
January 30th, 2007 at 2:16 pmGregor: duh.
Did you know the sky appears to be blue on a cloudless day?
January 30th, 2007 at 2:19 pmVince, I don’t know anyone here who claims to be an “expert” at Islam. Why don’t you educate us on Arminajad’s letter and why it is relevant to your opinions on our war in Iraq or the Islamacist movement. After that, maybe you can explain why we may attack another nation that does not like al Qaeda and had nothing to do with the 9-11 attack.
January 30th, 2007 at 2:19 pmVince, Buddy, you are missing the point.
All Islamasists are Muslim but not all Muslims are Islamasists. Just like all Baptists Christians but not all Christians are Baptists. (no offense to Baptists, just the first thing in my head)
January 30th, 2007 at 2:20 pm#188 Since you are all experts at Islam.. tell me.. what is the term used to describe the letter the Iranian President wrote to Bush.
Comment by Vince P — January 30, 2007 @ 2:12 pm
I found the tone of the letter very ressemblant to the tone Bush uses when speaking of Iran.
January 30th, 2007 at 2:21 pmI’m not discussing Christnianity. Stick to the topic.
Comment by Vince P — January 30, 2007 @ 2:14 pm
I believe Bluedog was drawing a parallel between the two.
And for you to establish a concerted effort in the umma to take over the world and let sharia law rule the land, you will have to provide some facts, evidence -where have any documents been found that lay down this goal?
Or are you trying to get us to take your speculation as a fact?
January 30th, 2007 at 2:21 pmVince – you are a standup guy. “the past is done”. I bet you’d even sail with me again, even though my criminal negligence led to the deaths of 1500 people.
January 30th, 2007 at 2:21 pmVince: “I’m not discussing Christnianity. Stick to the topic.”
Again, weasly. You are implying that the Islamicist Caliphate movement is widespread among Muslims. I said that the vast majority of Muslims think Islamicists take Koranic verse out of context and, to support that, I pointed out that you could do the same thing with the bible. You can’t deal with the cognitive dissonance so you accuse me of “changing the subject.” Look, if you can’t argue your point without controlling the arguments of others, go back to work. You’re supposed to be programming.
January 30th, 2007 at 2:22 pmComment by Bluedog49
Vince is the expert, he has been researching Islam since 1998/scarcasm>
January 30th, 2007 at 2:22 pmGregor: duh.
Comment by Vince P — January 30, 2007 @ 2:19 pm
Ask dumb questions and you will get dumb answers.
That there are wars between Muslim nations should put to rest the notion that Muslims are in a concerted effort to take over the world.
That notion is ridiculous.
January 30th, 2007 at 2:23 pmThe letter to Bush (and to others) is called a Dawa.
Mohemmed commanded Muslims for all time to spread their faith.
The world is divided in two. Dar Es Islam (Land of Peace), these are areas under control of Islam/Sharia. The other is Dar Es Harb (Land of War).
When spreading the faith to those in the Land of War, one must not compell the Non-Muslim to become a Muslim, instead the Muslim is to offer an invitation to the NM to join the faith.
If the NM accepts the offer, he is considered a Muslim and no harm comes to him.
If the NM refuses then he is to be killed. Unless he is a Christian or Jew (and later Hindu). in that case the person can live as a vassal in state knownas dhimititude, and live under humiliating subjugation.
By rejecting the offer to come to faith the non-believer attacks Islam and thus the Muslim must defend the faith and kill him.
That’s what the Dawa is for.
January 30th, 2007 at 2:25 pmI don’t think Vince is too strong in the “critical thinking” area. That’s evidently what happens when one believes everything he hears from Bush and his neocon cult.
January 30th, 2007 at 2:26 pmThis is a good introduction to the type of warfare being engaged by various Muslim groups around the world.. what you all see as seperate indepenent and totally unrelated conflicts is part of an overall system. The Method of Mohemmed.
http://homelandsecurity.tamu.edu/framework/enemies/gwot/jihadistsstrategiesinthewaronterrorism/
For the modern terrorist, there is more to jihad than impulsive violence. Even seemingly random attacks are strategically directed. In this article, Habeck address two levels of strategy- grand and military. Grand strategies are typically the same for every jihadist group. Most jihadists groups accept the same ideology for grand strategies. Their objectives are to 1) restore the greatness of their vision of Islam by defeating all rivals, 2) create an Islamic state, 3) defeat all rivals using violent means, and 4) win over the Islamic world to their vision of Islam. Military strategies, on the other hand, vary widely from one organization to another. Who to attack is often problematic. Some groups attack their nearest enemy first, then the farthest. Others use Islamic faith as the decisive factor- who has the greatest unbelief or who are the Muslim heretics?
Habeck suggests these military strategies are modeled after the Method of Mohammad, or footsteps of Mohammad’s life. In the first stage, Mohammad began in Mecca, forming a small vanguard dedicated his Islamic vision. Mohammad was the first vanguard leader, or Amir. Even today Muslim tradition states that “Wherever there are three Muslims, there must be an Amirâ€. At this stage, secrecy was vital to the success of the vanguard, so violence was not allowed. In the second stage, Mohammad migrated away from Mecca to go to Medina, a place open to Mohammad’s teachings. This migration is known as the hijrah.
The creation of an Islamic state characterizes the third and last stage. At this stage, violence is permitted for the sake of Islam. Several contemporary terrorist groups believe they have achieved the creation of an Islamic state, giving them the privilege to attack their enemies.
January 30th, 2007 at 2:28 pmBluedog: I know what I’m talking about. You dont speak from any particular information other than your politics. Your politics dont fit the world as it is today. Be in the dark if you want but know that you’re wrong no matter how rude you are.
January 30th, 2007 at 2:30 pmAgain, if you want to use Koranic verse to justify the argument that Muslims want to kill non-believers, you’ll have to explain why Christians don’t follow the Bible’s dictates to kill non-believers. Could it be that the vast majority of Christians don’t take the Bible literally? Do you think Muslims take the Koran literally?
January 30th, 2007 at 2:30 pmVince, there is a radical christian movement in the U.S. filled with people who want to change our constitutional republic to a theocracy. They are willing to use violence if necessary. Does that make christians terrorists?
January 30th, 2007 at 2:32 pmBlue: Muslims dont look to Christianity or the Bible for direction. No wonder you dont know what’s going on, you’re trying to explain forces by something that they themselves dont even look at.
January 30th, 2007 at 2:32 pmBlue: I dont use the Koran for anything.. The Jihadis do. Have you read any of their documents? I doubt it, becaues everything they write they back up with extensive references to thier Religious texts.
January 30th, 2007 at 2:33 pmVince,
I am going to weigh in, then get back to work. In Mexico, and the US southwest, there is a small movement of people who wish to re-conquer the area the US took from Mexico in the Mexican-American. This movement in no way encompasses all Mexicans. Same with the fundamentalist movements in the Muslim world. On a side note, I do think that moderate Muslims, do need to take a greater stand, and voice their opinions. They are allowing a radical fringe to define their religion.
January 30th, 2007 at 2:34 pmBe in the dark if you want but know that you’re wrong no matter how rude you are.
Comment by Vince P
Yeah, right. Cuz Bush and his stupid followers have been right about anything since the beginning, right?
And about your war on the West, it is difficult to know because so far the “West” has been occupating a country in the Middle East. It would be hard to tell if those middle easterns are pissed about it.
January 30th, 2007 at 2:36 pmVince, I tend to be rude to people who are blindly following the worst president in American history down the craphole. I am also often rude to people who repeat rightwing propaganda like “SSI is bankrupt.” And, I tend to be rude to people who paint all muslims as terrorists. I don’t think that helps anything.
January 30th, 2007 at 2:39 pmKrazny: The problem the Moderate Muslims have is that the Jihadis act from the basis of Mohemmed and what is written in the Islamic holy texts.
The moderates are just your normal everyday people who really dont care that much about the religion (like your average Catholic in the US).
The moderates dont act from a code of law that is an alternative to the ones the Jihadis act from.. the moderates just ignore the law the jihadis are following.. therefore there is nothing the Moderates can counter with from a position of Islamic jurispudiance. And unfortunately, Islam doesn’t look kindly on those who would take whole portions of it and choose to ignore it. They get killed.
January 30th, 2007 at 2:39 pmThose of you who choose to be in denial about what I’m saying all you need to do is try to get some documents that are written by the Jihadi strategists , thinkers , and religious experts.
I have read it. All I am doing is relating to you what they themselves say. I am not inventing reasons or motivations. I am simply taking them at thier word. (Because I’m not a racist, I take minorities serious when they try to tell me the reasons why they do what they do instead of trying to impose my Marxism on thier acts)
January 30th, 2007 at 2:41 pmvince: “Blue: Muslims dont look to Christianity or the Bible for direction. No wonder you dont know what’s going on, you’re trying to explain forces by something that they themselves dont even look at.”
Again, critical thinking is not your strong suit. As usual, you completely missed the point.
January 30th, 2007 at 2:41 pmThat’s what the Dawa is for.
Comment by Vince P — January 30, 2007 @ 2:25 pm
Holy Dhimmis in mortal danger, Batman!!
Where did you get all that stuff? Condemning Islam for the once-spread discrimination of non-Muslims is like slamming Christianity for the creation of Jewish ghettos -and trying to make it look as if it’s still done, to boot.
I don’t know of any modern Muslim state that still uses the category of Dhimmis, or that runs on Sharia law. For instance, Turkey does not discriminate against non-Muslims in such a fashion. Same goes Indonesia and Malaysia. Laws in these countries are largely secular.
Sure, their laws are influenced by Islamic tradition -but the same goes for European nations, whose laws are influenced by Christian beliefs. To say that Islamic countries are run on Sharia law, is akin to saying that Christian countries are governed by the literal interpretation of the Bible.
January 30th, 2007 at 2:44 pmBlue: I know what your point is. Someone like you always makes it. I”ve heard what you are saying so many times , so don’t flatter yourself. You’re just following the typical pattern when this thing comes up. Discuss everything EXCEPT Islam. Well that’s why you know nothing about it
January 30th, 2007 at 2:44 pm#211 The moderates dont act from a code of law that is an alternative to the ones the Jihadis act from.. the moderates just ignore the law the jihadis are following.. therefore there is nothing the Moderates can counter with from a position of Islamic jurispudiance. And unfortunately, Islam doesn’t look kindly on those who would take whole portions of it and choose to ignore it. They get killed.
Comment by Vince P — January 30, 2007 @ 2:39 pm
Change islamic for christian and you’ll have a picture of the 28%ers.
January 30th, 2007 at 2:48 pmVince, I’m going to take one more shot at this: today’s christians don’t own slaves, don’t “own” their wives, don’t stone adulterers or people who utter the name of God and they don’t run out and kill non-believers or apostates. Yet, there are parts of the bible which dictate that these things must be done. Are these people still “good christians?” Of course they are.
Is it possible for you to get your mind around the fact that the same situation exists in Islam? For example, do you think Mohammed Ali wants to kill you?
January 30th, 2007 at 2:48 pmVince, I know enough to know when I’m hearing histerical nonsense.
January 30th, 2007 at 2:50 pmSheesh, TP cookie monster is eating half my posts… and I didn’t say any dirty word at all…
January 30th, 2007 at 2:51 pmIslam was at its weakest at the turn of the 20th Century, so yes of course there is little evidence of dhmittude today,but it’s changing.
In Saudi Arabia, it is forbidden to read the Bible or utter a non-moslem prayer, even in the privacy of your home. Converting a moslem to Christianity is punishable by death, for both. Christian “guest labourers” celebrate their services in secret, with guards posted against the appearance of local police.
This is part of being a dhimmi.
In Saudi and some other Arab countries, it is almost impossible to get permission to build a church or supply the resident non-moslems with priests.
This is part of being a dhimmi.
In the somewhat less stict Egypt, Christian congregations are not even allowed to paint the walls on their houses or make minor repairs to their churches without a permit which the moslem authorities usually refuse to give. There are moslem gangs who practise “protection” in mafia style against Jews and Christians; against this, the dhimmi receive no help from the police.
That is being a dhimmi
In Sudan there is civil war since 1983 when the moslem north introduced sharia laws and started a jihad against the Christians in the south. Some 2 million non-moslems have perished and 5 million been driven into exile as refugees. Slavery, rape, forced conversion of abducted christian children are some of the aspects of his struggle.
That is being a dhimmi.
January 30th, 2007 at 2:52 pmComment by Gregor Samsa
I’ll go one further, most laws are based on the Code of Hammurabi. Before the Bible or the Quran.
January 30th, 2007 at 2:53 pmAnyone interested in Jihad and Dhimmitude can start here
http://www.dhimmi.org/
I stand 100% behind everything I say. By looking at what the Jihadis say about themselves you will see all the other “root causes” are not the true explanation no matter how stridently American Leftists wish it weren’t so.
January 30th, 2007 at 3:05 pmI f’ked up the last sentence. Time for lunch.
January 30th, 2007 at 3:06 pmI’m sorry Vincent, and every other right winger who believes that the past is the past lets move on. That may be well and good as far as future actions go, but that logic does not hold up in a society where accountability is a key issue. Was Clinton’s BJ in the past? How about all of those factoids you posted? What is the point in posting them if they are in the past? Time to move on and stop dwelling. None, it only works for you when it is your party’s disastrous past being looked at. The past must be looked and and when the story does not add up a spade needs to be called a spade. How many times has Bush said the troops will not leave on my watch, the next president will have to decide what to do? He has been saying that for two to three years now. What does that tell you? Does it tell you that he is really interested at all in finding a solution? To me it says that should peace break out and everything turn to a blissful peaceful state, our troops will stay there, period. It is quite clear that he has no interest in finding a resolution to this situation. I for one am in no position to effect any changes to our countries Iraq policies, and I seriously doubt anyone else here is either, so just like with sports we have our arm chair politicking that we can do.
Leaving would be catastrophic? Who says so? Oh, yes, those same people who said that we needed fewer troops at the beginning. Thos same people who said they had WMD, ties to AlQueda implied that Iraq was tied to 911. Those same people who said we would be greeted as liberators, that the streets would be strewn with flowers, that the insurgency was in its last throes, that the Hussein boys death was a turning point, that Hussein’s capture was a turning point, that the first elections was a turning point, that the next six months would be crucial, then the next six months and the next six months yadda yadda yadda… those people say it would be catastrophic? They have been wrong about almost everything they have predicted, and yet you find them credible on this? Oh wait it’s that right wing selectiveness, they have been wrong in the past, but we should trust them for the future. Whoops, my bad.
OK so tell me what is more catastrophic than what is occurring now? Lets say they sort everything out and make peace tomorrow. We leave, after GWB leaves office of course, the Iranians will still have the influence and ties that they are going to have as long as the Shia majority stays in power. Is that what you fear? That is happening regardless, face it we have made an ally for Iran. I just don’t get what could be worse than what is already happening. Every bad thing predicted to occur if we leave is already occurring. Or is it the macho chest thumping? We can’t leave or we will look weak. Umm, they already saw that we can conquer a country in less than 30 days what more do they need to see? By staying we are showing them that 1) we are dumb, 2) we really do want to own and control a chunk of the mid-east or 3) we really are at war with Islam and not Al Qaeda. Or perhaps even we do nothing more than provide a convenient recruiting tool for those who hate us?
Our enemies see the way you and your ilk willingly support every move Bush makes. They see that the Bush supporters are also the ones who make statements such as kill them all, or kill all the men and convert the women and children to Christianity. They see how the right wing Project for a New American Century in this country had plans for Iraq drawn up long before Bush came into office and how the Bush administration was well stocked with members of the PNAC. They see the big stink the right wingers made about Keith Ellison. They see the lies perpetrated by the rightwing about Obama and how the right wing tried to turn it into an all Muslims are bad and should not hold office issue. They see how many times the Bush administration has been proven wrong yet they keep on going down the same path. Talk about emboldening our enemies? The rightwing is the prime recruiting tool for AlQueda and many of the other diverse groups who oppose us. Vinnie your own ignnorant statements about Islam embolden the enemy and gie them resolve becauseit makes them think they are fighting for their way of life against a right wing horde bent on the destruction of Islam. Do you really want to keep sending messages to the enemy which embolden them and strengthen their resolve?
#159 Vinnie, we started the Iraq war, no one attacked us. Also you say you don’t like the way the war is being waged, yet you seem to defend the actions of the administration tooth and nail and you seem to parrot the talking points pretty well.
#165 Vinnie you say none will discuss the future. Umm, I think you are sipping too liberally at the Kool-Aid cooler. When asked what will happen if the plan does not succeed, bush offers no answer other than “it will work” Talk about avoiding the future. If you had been paying attention to the real world, numerous plans have been floated regarding Iraq, just because you are un aware of them doesn’t mean that there are no plans. Just because you don’t like our version of the future does not mean that we do not have wishes for the future. Some want total immediate withdrawal, some want over the horizon withdrawals, some want incremental withdrawal, plans are there, the only person with out a plan is the president…unless of course you think that “we will stay as long as I am president” is a plan.
Vinne what you call Bush Bashing, I call taking the president to task for all the mistakes he has made over the years. Name one thing he has done well, outside of winning elections? What is going on now is a president who is completely oblivious to the majority of the people in his own country and throughout the world. He is in a little neo-con PNAC world made for him by the people who think for him.
#221, but the Saudi’s are our friends, nto like those Iraqii’s and iranians who flew planes into our buildings.
January 30th, 2007 at 3:07 pm#172 Bobbo, compare the C# switch structure with the VB Select Case structure…
January 30th, 2007 at 3:07 pmVinnie, I hope you program better than you debate!
January 30th, 2007 at 3:08 pmErr amend #225 to read # 169…
January 30th, 2007 at 3:09 pmRUC: You’re right, I should do what you guys do.
“um. Bush! There”
January 30th, 2007 at 3:12 pm#221 Islam was at its weakest at the turn of the 20th Century, so yes of course there is little evidence of dhmittude today,but it’s changing.
Say better that the West wasn’t paying any attention to the Islam while we were battling ourselves, Sino-Russian war, having WWII, Bolshevik revolution, etc.
In Saudi Arabia, it is forbidden to read the Bible or utter a non-moslem prayer, even in the privacy of your home. Converting a moslem to Christianity is punishable by death, for both. Christian “guest labourers†celebrate their services in secret, with guards posted against the appearance of local police.
This is part of being a dhimmi.
You’re talking of only one country, ruled by a single family in all government places, of a sect who exist almost only there. BTW, they’re chums with Bush.
Oh, and try doing a muslim service in the USA and you will soon receive the visit of the FBI, or worse.
These are christian values.
In Saudi and some other Arab countries, it is almost impossible to get permission to build a church or supply the resident non-moslems with priests.
This is part of being a dhimmi.
Try getting a permission to create a mosque in your neighbourhood.
These are christian values.
In the somewhat less stict Egypt, Christian congregations are not even allowed to paint the walls on their houses or make minor repairs to their churches without a permit which the moslem authorities usually refuse to give. There are moslem gangs who practise “protection†in mafia style against Jews and Christians; against this, the dhimmi receive no help from the police.
That is being a dhimmi
Keyword: somewhat. Egypt isn’t a beacon of liberty, as Saudi Arabia. You bring only two countries over a lot of muslim countries or countries with strong muslim presence.
Reread the laws of some of the States of the USA or your condominium and you’ll find stricter laws or directives.
And about “protection” mafia style… well… the USA has nothing to learn about mafia groups, isn’t?
These are christian values.
In Sudan there is civil war since 1983 when the moslem north introduced sharia laws and started a jihad against the Christians in the south. Some 2 million non-moslems have perished and 5 million been driven into exile as refugees. Slavery, rape, forced conversion of abducted christian children are some of the aspects of his struggle.
That is being a dhimmi.
Comment by Vince P — January 30, 2007 @ 2:52 pm
The USA launched a war against Iraq in 2003. All of the above apply in Iraq nowadays, thanks to your country.
These are christian values.
January 30th, 2007 at 3:13 pmMark – that’s the best post I’ve seen for a long time.
January 30th, 2007 at 3:15 pmIn Saudi Arabia, it is forbidden to read the Bible
Comment by Vince P — January 30, 2007 @ 2:52 pm
I don’t have the time to make a lengthy post, so -for what it’s worth:
It is not illegal to read the Bible in your own home in Saudi Arabia. It is illegal to proselitise.
Let’s put this in context: In Saudi Arabia, foreign imams are not allowed to lead in prayers, and practices not in accordance with Suffi Islam are not permited. Saudi Arabia is a theocracy and as such practices religious discrimination. That the House of Saud are a xenophobic lot is not a new development.
What is really funny is that you chose a prime “ally in the war on terror” to make your point about a global Jihad.
Not to mention that listing all the backward Islamic regimes in the world still does not make a case for a Muslim conspiracy to take over the world. That is your own paranoia talking.
January 30th, 2007 at 3:17 pmVinnie, name all of the Muslims you know.
January 30th, 2007 at 3:19 pmhttp://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p=EA0270E133DC8334
That is a Documentary that the UK TV show Dispatches did of an undercover infilitration of the Mosques in the UK, capturing what the Muslim clerics are teaching in the most moderate mosques of the country
January 30th, 2007 at 3:33 pmVince,
Ever heard of Christian Identity?
Are you a Christian? If so, Do you agree with CI’s philosophy?
There are extremes in all groups.
January 30th, 2007 at 3:45 pmhacker: Irrelevent.
January 30th, 2007 at 3:46 pmVince: Evading.
January 30th, 2007 at 3:56 pmNo, it is not. You paint an entire group with a single brush. I am pointing out the narrowness of your vision.
If you are a chrisian and disagree with CI, then is it not reasonable that the majority of muslims would disagree with the minority that are the extreme?
January 30th, 2007 at 3:56 pmWhat does what another country do within the context of their own laws have to do with the US? So what, we may not like the laws, but it is Saudi Arabia, not the US. By the way Christianity was more accepted in iraq prior tothe invasion than it is today or than it has been in Saudi. Remeber Tariq Aziz? He was a christian. Name one important Saudi who is christian?
January 30th, 2007 at 4:00 pmThe Bible is banned in Saudi Arabia
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&newwindow=1&safe=off&rls=com.microsoft%3Aen-us&q=is+the+bible+banned+in+saudi+arabia
January 30th, 2007 at 4:00 pmhacker: I already said the majority of muslims aren’t jihadis.
January 30th, 2007 at 4:01 pmVince, quit dancing and answer the questions you have been asked. You like to throw bombs, but when cornered, you evade.
Think for yourself and quit using talking points.
January 30th, 2007 at 4:04 pmhacker: sorry, when it gets 20 on 1, I respond even less. A message board isn’t my top priority. dont cry.
January 30th, 2007 at 4:09 pmhacker: I already said the majority of muslims aren’t jihadis.
Comment by Vince P
Then how do you expect the Jihadis to take over the world?
January 30th, 2007 at 4:10 pmBecause people like you support them
January 30th, 2007 at 4:12 pmGiven the clear division in Iraq. The overall divisions in the Muslim world, Sunni, Shiite, Arab, Persian, Pakistani, Egyptian, Moroccan, etc, etc.
Does Vince really think that somehow this disparate group of people will take over the western world? Hell Afghanistan faced how several more years of civil war after the russians left, because the tribes couldn’t come together to form a cohesive government, and when the Taliban was Kicked out, the majority of Afgani’s were grateful.
January 30th, 2007 at 4:13 pmI’m off for now. It was the usual drek talking to the Left. Hopefully the intellectually honest amongst you will look into these things and make a decision from the evidence.
January 30th, 2007 at 4:13 pmI’m off for now. It was the usual drek talking to the Left.
Comment by Vince P — January 30, 2007 @ 4:13 pm
Then why do it? Jeez Vince get over yourself.
January 30th, 2007 at 4:22 pmVinny says: “..hopefully the intellectually honest amongst you…”
Vinny had just said: “Because people like you support [ the Jihadis ]”
And Vinny wonders why no one takes him seriously…?
January 30th, 2007 at 4:23 pmHere is a great article on how well those Iraqi security forces are fairing.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070130/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_what_happened
January 30th, 2007 at 4:42 pmBTW, I am more Hawkeye Pearce than I am George Patton.
Comment by hacker bob — January 30, 2007 @ 12:37 pm
no kiddin’! … as if a george patton would be blogging at ThinkProgress…
January 30th, 2007 at 4:45 pmheh…
Because people like you support them
Comment by Vince P
Um, apparently you have not been paying attention. I am in the Marine Corps. I fight Jihadis, not support them. I just do not fall into the doom and gloom category of Republicamism. I do not think that Jihadis are going to take over the world. I am a little more of a moderate Republican.
Hey, Bluedog, TerrytheTurtle, and Juan C.
This guy thinks I am on the left… Ain’t that a hoot!?!
January 30th, 2007 at 4:48 pmShrug, Hawkeye Pierce would be too drunk to blog, or umm occupied with a the resident nurse provided she is cute enough.
January 30th, 2007 at 4:49 pmComment by katy
Thanks Katy
“I loved a girl in San Francisco once…
January 30th, 2007 at 4:50 pmNo, twice!”–BF “Hawkeye” Pearce
Comment by Krazny
I’ll send you pictures of the still I had last time in Iraq!
January 30th, 2007 at 4:51 pmhey, VINCE -
VoteVets Creates New “Stop Escalation†Ad
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/01/29/votevets-creates-new-stop-escalation-ad/
January 30th, 2007 at 4:51 pm…
Haha,
Bob you can send anything you like to me, we may not agree on stuff, but I have a lot of respect for you.
you can reach me at ctollefson@gmail.com
January 30th, 2007 at 4:54 pmBob, it takes all kinds of nuts to make a fruitcake. That’s what my Grandmother said, anyway.
January 30th, 2007 at 4:57 pmComment by Krazny
Thanks Kranzy. And I have much respect for you. Be careful throwing the e-mail address out there!
We may not agree, but at least we can agree to disagree…It’s a start.
I’ll dig out the pics
January 30th, 2007 at 4:59 pmVince’s problem: It is illegal to read the bible in Saudi Arabia.
Vince’s solution: Bomb Iran.
January 30th, 2007 at 5:02 pmComment by Bluedog49
or don’t read the Bible in Saudi Arabia.
January 30th, 2007 at 5:06 pm“I loved a girl in San Francisco once…
No, twice!â€â€“BF “Hawkeye†Pearce
Comment by hacker bob — January 30, 2007 @ 4:50 pm
is that the MOVIE version or the TV version?
not sure which hawkeye i prefer… but, of course, the movie was a first love, sooooo…
January 30th, 2007 at 5:32 pm#211 Vince P
The moderates are just your normal everyday people who really dont care that much about the religion (like your average Catholic in the US).
The moderates dont act from a code of law that is an alternative to the ones the Jihadis act from.. the moderates just ignore the law the jihadis are following.. therefore there is nothing the Moderates can counter with from a position of Islamic jurispudiance.
Now that’s just propaganda. And, contrary to what Krazny said, the moderates do weigh in:
“U.S. MUSLIM RELIGIOUS COUNCIL ISSUES FATWA AGAINST TERRORISM” (July 28, 2005) http://www.cair-net.org/downloads/fatwa-english.txt
Apparently, there are some Muslims whose reading of the Koran is different from yours.
January 30th, 2007 at 5:34 pmThen how do you expect the Jihadis to take over the world?
Comment by hacker bob — January 30, 2007 @ 4:10 pm
Exactly.
His following response is even more non-sensical: If not even the majority Muslims support the global Jihad, there is no way Jihadists can “take over the world”.
Vince’s bomb-throwing statement means he cannot prove his point so he has to make up accusations. As a matter of fact, that the US enlisted a totalitarian state like Saudi Arabia in the “war on terror” should put a whole in the belief that Saudi Arabia is working towards spreading Sharia law in the world. Unless you are a conspiracy theorist, that is.
And again, reading the Bible is not illegal in Saudi Arabia. What is illegal is to proselitise anything but their version of Islam (even other currents of Islamic thought are persecuted). Freedom of religion -or lack thereof- is already in a sorry state in Saudi Arabia without having to make up stuff about the House of Saud.
January 30th, 2007 at 5:43 pmThis guy thinks I am on the left… Ain’t that a hoot!?!
Comment by hacker bob — January 30, 2007 @ 4:48 pm
Yeah, that post got a chuckle out of me.
In Vinceworld, if you are not in an anti-Muslim hysteric mode, you support jihadists.
Aren’t false dichotomies just lovely?
January 30th, 2007 at 5:46 pmProblem: Some Muslims hate our guts and want to destroy our system.
Vince’s solution: Bomb Iran.
Bush’s solution: Bomb Iran.
What a coincidence!
January 30th, 2007 at 6:19 pmSo did any of you watch the Dispatches show? Comments?
January 30th, 2007 at 8:32 pmThis guy thinks I am on the left… Ain’t that a hoot!?!
Comment by hacker bob
That is a hoot, Robert. But if you keep making friends with us, we’ll eventually turn you.
January 30th, 2007 at 8:58 pmI guess it depends on how right you are, how many people appear left to you. Guess Vinny is WAY over there.
January 30th, 2007 at 10:42 pmBobbo, Mistress Z~ is right.
January 30th, 2007 at 10:55 pmYou may turn away from the Dark side if you hang out too long here…
I’m hawkish, small federal govt on domestic side, socially libertarian, states right – oriented.
January 30th, 2007 at 11:05 pmlooks like I am banned again – bye all
January 31st, 2007 at 12:09 amBarfly: Go ahead and do it.
Comment by Vince P
Simply making an observation, but I guess you hysterical types think everything is a threat.
And that’s why we had to invade Iraq, before the smoking gun became a mushroom cloud (or some other such hysterical nonsense).
January 31st, 2007 at 12:35 amI’m hawkish, small federal govt on domestic side, socially libertarian, states right – oriented.
Comment by Vince P
So, you’re against intrusive “big government,” and for states rights. So you must be furious over the big, heavy-handed Supreme Court stepping in and selecting George Bush as the winner in ‘00. Or does your hatred of “big goverment” only extend to those things not profitable to you politically?
January 31st, 2007 at 12:45 amThat is a hoot, Robert. But if you keep making friends with us, we’ll eventually turn you.
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