Kristol: Obama Is ‘The Opposite Of Lincoln,’ Would Have Been Pro-Slavery
Kristol: Obama Is ‘The Opposite Of Lincoln,’ Would Have Been Pro-Slavery
Yesterday, Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL) announced his candidacy for president in Springfield, IL, where Abraham Lincoln delivered his famous “House Divided” address. In his speech, Obama reiterated his call to redeploy U.S. forces out of Iraq by March 2008.
This morning on Fox News Sunday, Weekly Standard editor William Kristol attacked Obama’s Iraq policy, saying he wants to appease terrorists like pro-slavery politician Stephen Douglas tried to appease slave-owners. Kristol said, “Obama’s speech is a ‘can’t we get along’ speech — sort of the opposite of Lincoln. He would have been with Stephen Douglas in 1858.”
Watch it:
Stephen Douglas supported the Dred Scott Supreme Court decision of 1857, and took the pro-slavery position that each territory should decide whether or not to allow slave-owning.
Transcript:
KRISTOL: We’re electing a war president in 2008. If I can go back to Obama and Lincoln for just one second, Lincoln’s “house divided” speech in 1858 was a speech saying we cannot live as a house divided on slavery. And he implicitly says we’ll have to fight a civil war if necessary on this.
Obama’s speech is a “can’t we get along” speech — sort of the opposite of Lincoln. He would have been with Stephen Douglas in 1858. Let’s paper over these differences, rise above politics and all get along. That’s not Giuliani’s mode. And I think in a war context, social conservatives want to win the war against Islamic jihadism.
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I’d like to kick his teeth in.
February 11th, 2007 at 10:15 amBarack Obama reminds this talking head of Pro-slavery Stephen Douglas?
That moron never knows what he’s talking about…
February 11th, 2007 at 10:16 amLincoln’s “house divided†speech in 1858 was a speech saying we cannot live as a house divided on slavery.
Obama’s speech is a “can’t we get along†speech — sort of the opposite of Lincoln.
Huh? “we cannot live as a house divided” and “can’t we get along” are opposite?
Is Kristol drunk on air again?
February 11th, 2007 at 10:18 amWhy doe ANYBODY still listen to this guy?
February 11th, 2007 at 10:19 amI’d actually prefer that TP also show Juan’s response to that. Sometimes we can’t catch these programs. It would be useful to know if the others on the panel just let crap like that go unchallenged.
What a joke Kristol is. Seriously. Can we have some accounting for people who’ve been so consistently wrong about everything? Please Fox?
February 11th, 2007 at 10:23 amOh my god, did Kristol just call Barack Obama an Uncle Tom?
February 11th, 2007 at 10:23 amThe only think Kristol gets right is the “plan” of events by the bush administration because he is a neocon and insider. Of course he never tells the real plan but he did predict Rumsfeld being replaced. I agree with miles that he should be kicked in the teeth.
February 11th, 2007 at 10:25 amHow does this LOSER mf get on tv EVERY Sunday?
Did his daddy own the network at one time or what??
Anyone with a brain could surely see the incredible statements (LIES) he tells each and every time he’s on….and how NONE of his bullshit ever comes to pass
PNAC=FAILED FOREIGN POLICY DISASTER
February 11th, 2007 at 10:26 amJon Stewart should be a permanent guest on this show. It would be the one and only time I would ever watch FAUX. Just to see Kristol “educated” each week.
February 11th, 2007 at 10:30 amWere electing a war president in 2008. -BK
By ‘We’ I guess he means PNAC/ AEI and ‘they’ basically don’t want ‘their’ President to get any foreign policy whatsoever.
The slavery issue is nothing more than inflammatory rhetoric aimed at the base and shouldn’t be given a second thought.
February 11th, 2007 at 10:30 amHuh? “we cannot live as a house divided†and “can’t we get along†are opposite?
Comment by unbelievable
I know I am going to regret this
Is quite different than
The first one says “we will do what ever we have to in order to solve the problem. The second sounds more like “lets stick our head in the sand and maybe the problem will go away”.
But I do not think that is what Obama said. Those are Kristols words.
Don’t get me wrong, I like Obama. I do not want to complement him because recent history shows that would actually be insulting him. If I were to vote for a Democrat , he (at this time) would probably be my choice. But it is too early to make those decisions.
Oh, I forgot. No one really listens to Kristol anyways. He’s an idiot.
February 11th, 2007 at 10:32 amsocial conservatives want to win the war against Islamic jihadism.
Too bad you only have 28% or less of the people behind you on that.
The MAJORITY of us don’t want ANY more needless wars, you vile, putrid scumbag.
February 11th, 2007 at 10:34 amHacker,
You are braver than I am, trying to explain anything to unbee. I was going to post just what you said, but subtle nuances are lost on academians …
February 11th, 2007 at 10:35 am#8 How does this LOSER mf get on tv EVERY Sunday? Comment by woke
Because he spouts the NeoCon talking points and that makes al those Faux NoNooz watchers twitch in self-delusional wonder!
February 11th, 2007 at 10:35 amanother thing kristol is wrong about.
February 11th, 2007 at 10:37 amIt’s Sunday: Little Billy is running off at the mouth again.
February 11th, 2007 at 10:38 amThe man is a partisan moron, and he’s always good for a stupid comment on Sundays.
And CNN is reporting Australia’s PM talking negatively about Obama.
What’s the beef that the media has with this guy? While I hate pulling the race card, I think this is one case where it can be pulled.
February 11th, 2007 at 10:38 amNo more proof needed that these guys are actually covert Democrats who are destroying the Republican party.
LMAO!!!!
Jimmy Carter is right!
February 11th, 2007 at 10:40 amComment by Jason M. Hendler
It’s a masochistic streak I have. Or maybe a soft spot (in my skull).
February 11th, 2007 at 10:41 amIt’s high time we fully expose Australia/Murdoch/FOX propaganda machine and shut it down.
Do not vote for Dems who guest on FOX.
February 11th, 2007 at 10:42 am#17, Xbot,
It is a result of the subconscious alarm bells go off at the sight of Obama, because he looks like the transvestite in the Crying Game or the suspected hermaphroditic pharoah Ahkenaten.
February 11th, 2007 at 10:43 amI think the extreme tone of charges against Obama are the result of the extreme fear that the guy can actually win the hearts and minds of Americans, leaving the politicians of old in the dust.
February 11th, 2007 at 10:43 am#19, Hacker,
My compliments to a finely crafted post in #11.
February 11th, 2007 at 10:43 amIsrael controls our congress.
February 11th, 2007 at 10:45 amAustralia controls our media narrative.
The first one says “we will do what ever we have to in order to solve the problem. The second sounds more like “lets stick our head in the sand and maybe the problem will go awayâ€.
Nonsense.
But I do not think that is what Obama said. Those are Kristols words.
Then why do you defend it?
Don’t get me wrong, I like Obama. I do not want to complement him because recent history shows that would actually be insulting him.
Don’t be ridiculous.
If I were to vote for a Democrat , he (at this time) would probably be my choice. But it is too early to make those decisions.
If? Think you’ll convert by then? :D
Oh, I forgot. No one really listens to Kristol anyways. He’s an idiot.
Comment by hacker bob — February 11, 2007 @ 10:32 am
What’s your point then?
February 11th, 2007 at 10:46 amIt is a result of the subconscious alarm bells go off at the sight of Obama, because he looks like the transvestite in the Crying Game or the suspected hermaphroditic pharoah Ahkenaten.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler
You are unbalanced, Jason. Crawl back under your rock.
February 11th, 2007 at 10:46 amJason, thanks.
February 11th, 2007 at 10:49 amYou are braver than I am, trying to explain anything to unbee.
He didn’t explain anything – just as you never explain anything. You just drag out our soapbox, stand upon it,and spout your ignorance-based OPINIONS. You never offer facts or evidence Jason.
I’ll make you a promise – make an actual argument, and I’ll listen. But I bet you aren’t capable.
I was going to post just what you said, but subtle nuances are lost on academians …
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — February 11, 2007 @ 10:35 am
Is your memory really that short?
Prior to teaching (this is my second year doing that), I was a practicing architect for 14 years.
An academe is someone who has never experienced anything he has studied. Much like you… Hmmm… Jason, I think you actually contributed something to a discussion for once. This is why YOU cannot understand reality. You’re a mental academe… Thanks!
By the way – go buy yourself a dictionary for Valentine’s Day. Seriously.
February 11th, 2007 at 10:50 amKristol is following a tried-and-true smear tactic. Put words in the opponent’s mouth, then discredit the opponent based on those words.
If they can’t find something against Obama, they’ll make it up.
Meanwhile, McCain and Liebermann will go unscrutinized, Bush will invade Iran, and we’ll watch another War from the safety and security of our living rooms.
Hendler, why haven’t you enlisted yet?
February 11th, 2007 at 10:50 amSince Bush and Cheeeeney listen to this loser, unfortunately with spewing like this and his take on the middle east, we will soon be blessed with a nuclear war.
February 11th, 2007 at 10:50 ammore proof, not that we needed any, that there is nothing a rethug can say that will get them ostracized.
February 11th, 2007 at 10:52 amThat doesn’t even make sense. How can Kristol be in such a public light and not be embarrassed to pull such idiotic crap out of his ass for all to see? I guess he has to live with, work with and talk to only people who are equally as loney-f*-tune as he is. When Kristol says that it is a small world, I guess that is one time he really is telling the truth. Crawl back under your itty-bitty little worn-out rock, Kristol.
February 11th, 2007 at 10:53 amJason – my response to you was eaten by the spam filter.
You aren’t worth the effort of re-typing it, soI’ll just paraphrase the gist of it.
Explain why, if Capitaliam is so successful, only 5% of Americans are in a win-win situation, while 95% are not? Try facts instead of your usually ignorant opinions.
February 11th, 2007 at 10:53 amIt’s Ironic that AEI/PNAC touts a conservative agenda yet is very much into GM (genetically modified) food products and says they can help save millions with GM foods and drugs, yet they back perpetual war.
The irony! The greed! The mendacity! And all rolled into one giant talking head.
How do you sleep at night BK?
February 11th, 2007 at 10:53 amWhy is this terrorist given a forum?
February 11th, 2007 at 10:54 amThis guy smells of urine.
February 11th, 2007 at 10:55 amunbee,
Of course, you wait for the mods to delete my post on capitalism / communism before you bother responding – so much for your willingness to respond to an argument …
February 11th, 2007 at 10:55 amThe mutual troll wanking is really sickening to read.
February 11th, 2007 at 10:55 amKristol; What a tiresome little queen.
February 11th, 2007 at 10:58 amWhat a hypocrite.
Kristol still supports slavery.
February 11th, 2007 at 10:59 amHaha,
Kristol is really reaching. I think they are afraid of Obama. Not only could he win the presidential election, but if he does, there goes the dream of total middle east conquest.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:00 am#33, unbee,
Your stats are way off, only a small percent are actually in “poverty”, and even those benefit from the existence of healthcare and other infrastructures created through the wealth generating power of capitalism, should they choose to strive for it.
The number 1 reason is that teachers unions prevent the preparation of students for a capitalist economy, which is why it is imperative that inner city blighted areas receive vouchers to escape the cycle of poverty. The second reason is that the Democratic Party sows discord and division among minorities, and tells them not to try to elavate themselves, but instead just vote for Dems and receive handouts.
Eliminate those two things alone, and everyone would begin to share in America’s bounty.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:01 amt is a result of the subconscious alarm bells go off at the sight of Obama, because he looks like the transvestite in the Crying Game or the suspected hermaphroditic pharoah Ahkenaten.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler
I’m not really an Obama fan, but thats just downright silly Jason, and you know it.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:02 amIt’s time for the Progressive’s Fifteen Minute Hate of Kristol
February 11th, 2007 at 11:06 amThe first one says “we will do what ever we have to in order to solve the problem. The second sounds more like “lets stick our head in the sand and maybe the problem will go awayâ€.
Nonsense.
Demonstrate how what I say is nonsense. Just because you say it is does not make it so.
But I do not think that is what Obama said. Those are Kristols words.
Then why do you defend it?
There is a difference between his Kristols words and Obamas sentiment. We all know that Obama will folloe the least aggressive course of action.
Don’t get me wrong, I like Obama. I do not want to complement him because recent history shows that would actually be insulting him.
Don’t be ridiculous.
It is called injecting a little humor. check into it.
If I were to vote for a Democrat , he (at this time) would probably be my choice. But it is too early to make those decisions.
If? Think you’ll convert by then? :D
Just because I may vote for a Democrat does not make me a Democrat. See, the funny thing that most Americans have forgotten about the election system is that it was not designed for you to vote for a party, but rather a man (person)
Oh, I forgot. No one really listens to Kristol anyways. He’s an idiot.
Comment by hacker bob — February 11, 2007 @ 10:32 am
What’s your point then?
Comment by unbelievable
My point is that some people do not read things in their entirey (including the nuances of the statement). They read statements and balance it against their ideology. If there is a conflict between the two, they follow their ideology regardless of any logic that may have been presented in the statement.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:07 amwealth generating power of capitalism, should they choose to strive for it -JMH
Thats what the Romans thought too, until they grew fat and lazy and immoral, much like the ‘culture of corruption’ today.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:08 amKristol belongs on Faux News, joining with O’Lielly, the sex phone pervert, Hannity the over the top idiot, and Brit Hume the make believe newsman. And don’t forget the man obsessed with Hillary, Dick Morris, he who was being led around by a dog collar by a prostitute. What a group!
February 11th, 2007 at 11:09 amHeh. These guys are desperate. This means that Obama guy is doing some things right.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:09 amIt’s time for the Progressive’s Fifteen Minute Hate of Kristol
Comment by Vince P
I don’t hate Kristol, but you have to admit that he would sell you to the highest bidder anytime. That is he doesn’t care about you or me. He cares about one thing. Kristol.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:10 amOf course, you wait for the mods to delete my post on capitalism / communism before you bother responding – so much for your willingness to respond to an argument …
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — February 11, 2007 @ 10:55 am
No Jason, I responded to your post BEFORE it got deleted (how I knew it existed). I didn’t wait (why my post was eaten, and why I gave you a response, which you are ignoring).
Stop projecting. You’re the only one between us who is a liar. I have no problems refuting your nonsense.
So are you going to answer my question to your deleted post? Or are you just going to whine about it to hide the fact that you cannot answer it?
February 11th, 2007 at 11:11 amBill Kristol is an imflammatory idiot, and it’s about time people had the balls to say so.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:12 amSo Vince when are you gonna go die in a war for Korporate Kristol while he profits off your demise?
February 11th, 2007 at 11:12 am#46, Jet Mech,
The Roman economy was still largely agragrian and military (conquest acquisition of wealth). It wasn’t until property rights and right of contract was upheld that true capitalism emerged.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:12 amBilly Kristol is an AIPAC butt boy.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:13 am#50, unbee,
I answered you in #42 …
February 11th, 2007 at 11:14 amYour stats are way off, only a small percent are actually in “povertyâ€,
I didn’t say they were in poverty. But being a slave with debt from living expenses is NOT a win-win situation, Jason – therefore my stats are pretty good.
and even those benefit from the existence of healthcare and other infrastructures created through the wealth generating power of capitalism, should they choose to strive for it.
Considering they helped generate the $, they should have a right to access it. But, as usual, you don’t know what you’re talking about – and are just giving us your opinions.
The number 1 reason is that teachers unions
Teachers unions are illegal in my state… Next…
Eliminate those two things alone, and everyone would begin to share in America’s bounty.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — February 11, 2007 @ 11:01 am
We’d rather eliminate the neocons (just one thing), and then everyone could have access to OUR money that WE generated for OUR needs.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:15 amYour stats are way off, only a small percent are actually in “povertyâ€
Comment by Jason M. Hendler
In the world or just in the US? I know, you think Florida must be the end of the world and no land exists farther from that. But in fact, of all developed countries, US has the highest rate of poverty. Defend that, please.
Eliminate those two things alone, and everyone would begin to share in America’s bounty.
You choose a good word. It suits your way of thinking.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:15 amThe Roman economy was still largely agragrian and military (conquest acquisition of wealth).
Comment by Jason M. Hendler
So were not in Iraq for Exxon AEI?
You better go tell Kristol that.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:17 amThis is the just about the worse article I’ve read on Obama. It makes no sense. Give a white guy lips and he will say any damn thing.
I am not an Obama fan, I’ve written two articles on him to give the people a chance to voice their opinions on it.
He should get together with Gwen Ifil and have an Amos and Andy revival, she don’t know what she is anyway.
Heloise
February 11th, 2007 at 11:17 amDid Kristol intentionally use the “can’t we get along” phrase to draw a subliminal parallel with Rodney King? Am I the only one to see that?
February 11th, 2007 at 11:18 amLet me try ya’ll with this concept one more time. Some of you must watch this show every week. While you’re at it, write down the sponsors. Post the list on Daily Kos as a diary, or get Huffington Post or David Sirota or Harry Shearer to link to it. Announce a boycott of the listed companies for one month after every episode they sponsor featuring William Kristol. I promise to strictly observe the boycott. I bet nearly everyone else on this thread will do the same. Bye-bye, Billy.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:18 amTHe proble, with stupid people is that they are too stupid to realize just how stupid they are
February 11th, 2007 at 11:18 amDemonstrate how what I say is nonsense. Just because you say it is does not make it so.
Why? You already did.
There is a difference between his Kristols words and Obamas sentiment. We all know that Obama will folloe the least aggressive course of action.
You’re a psychic?
It is called injecting a little humor. check into it.
Inject some humor and I will laugh…
The Right seems to find humor in what the Left finds degrading and appalling (insulting others to feel better about yourselves).
Just because I may vote for a Democrat does not make me a Democrat.
Never said it did. The :D meant I was joking…
See, the funny thing that most Americans have forgotten about the election system is that it was not designed for you to vote for a party, but rather a man (person)
Why I am an Independent.
My point is that some people do not read things in their entirey (including the nuances of the statement).
I read the whole thing. I think Kristol was wrong. You haven’t demonstrated why with facts – just made some psychic predictions…
They read statements and balance it against their ideology. If there is a conflict between the two, they follow their ideology regardless of any logic that may have been presented in the statement.
Comment by hacker bob — February 11, 2007 @ 11:07 am
That’s not me. You have seen me argue with other liberals, robert. You know better than to suggest that was what I was doing.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:20 am>I don’t hate Kristol, but you have to admit that he would sell you to the highest bidder anytime. That is he doesn’t care about you or me. He cares about one thing. Kristol.
No kidding. I take it for granted that everyone cares about himself before other people. Are you going to tell me that you care about me ahead of you caring about yourself?
February 11th, 2007 at 11:21 am#11 hacker bob
actually, if you think about it, wasn’t Lincoln’s house divided speech sort of say can’t we all get along or we are going to destroy ourselves? I would put Obama’s announcement in the same category… not in so many words that he may have spoken, but with his choice of location. He invoked Lincoln’s house divided speech, I think because we are headed in that direction. I do not think there have been such divisions in our society since the antebellum period.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:23 amSimilarities are actually astounding as to what is occurring if one knows where to look. I’m actually waiting to see if the Dems go the route of the Whigs and end up being politically destroyed because they choose to surrender to the will of the concervatives rather than represent their constituency.
>Some of you must watch this show every week
Progressives watch Fox News more than any other demographic.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:24 amWhenever I come here I can always count on Jason for his expert commentary on cross dressing.
Everything else he says is bullshit.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:25 am#57, Juan,
Emerging from behind unbee’s skirt again, are you? The statement that the US has the highest poverty rate in the world is absolutely ridiculous, no point in going further with you.
#56, unbee,
Market forces determine the value of their supposed contribution, so what did they squander their wealth on, while others saved / invest / created their own wealth?
Thankyou for repeating Hill’reh’s sentiments about seizing profits and wealth. It is NOT your money, and fortunately SCOTUS upholds property rights and the right of contract, so you will never get your hands on it. Moreover, in my parochial schools, we learned the fable about the golden goose. The value of the wealthy neocons ISN’T the wealth they possess, but their ability to CREATE wealth, and train others to create wealth also. It is those things that will be needed as Earth’s population runs towards 7 billion. Didn’t you learn from Katrina that wars, disease and/or natural disasters will cause damage far in excess of even the US’s economy to fix? We are long past the point of being able to take care of our own, thanks to unions, and will have a massive economic implosion when China and India hit full stride. At that point, you will have already “killed off” the wealth generators in the US, and will be left to the tender mercies of the Asian economic super powers.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:27 amLiz: You left out Joe Biden’s amazement that Obama takes a shower and can speak with out grabbing his crotch.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:27 amHe knows damn well what Barack meant, I love how his IQ drops to 65 when he remarks about a Democrat.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:27 amWhy does Kristol think its appropriate to bring up slavery in commenting on Obama’s candidacy? Because Obama is black? Will he bring up prostitution in commenting of Clinton’s candidacy just because she is a woman? Just when you think Fox and Kristol can’t possibly get any worse, they sink to knew lows. How patronizing and offensive must they get before all Americans respond with outrage?
February 11th, 2007 at 11:27 amBilly Boy is projecting. It’s the GOP that has the slavery problem…Tom Delay and the Marianas scandal. Sex slavery and forced abortions.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:28 amGee, I didn’t realize that Lincoln had invaded another country. I thought, like Obama, that he was out to save our own country from rightwing nut cases of the “Crystal” type.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:28 amLiz: The above pseudo-journalist sub-human idiots need to STFU!!! STAT!!!
Comment by LizOnlineInGa — February 11, 2007 @ 11:23 am
Jason gets deleted for talking about political issues, even if off topic, yet the resident insane trolls gets to post at will about kiddie porn and make racists comments?
I’m confused.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:28 am#61, Mike,
… more evidence of the illiberal liberal …
… so much for freedom of speech.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:29 amProgressives watch Fox News more than any other demographic.
Comment by Vince P — February 11, 2007 @ 11:24 am
I thought for sure that the “close to death” demographic was the biggest among all FOX news shows.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:32 amJason gets deleted for talking about political issues, even if off topic, yet the resident insane trolls gets to post at will about kiddie porn and make racists comments?
I’m confused.
Comment by unbelievable
Jason makes his homo-lust rather apparent with his non-sequitors, therefore deserves to be deleted, and ignored.
He’s one moronic troll, not worth even noticing…
February 11th, 2007 at 11:32 amEverything else he says is bullshit.
Comment by mparker — February 11, 2007 @ 11:25 am
Self-serving bullshit at that! :)
February 11th, 2007 at 11:32 am#72, MS Gerety,
Obama, by announcing in Springfield, IL and describing himself as physically similar to Lincoln, made the comparison – Kristol merely refuted it.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:33 amKristol is such a smarmy, condescending and intellectually dishonest SOB.
To say a black man would have been pro-slavery is as reprehensible as suggesting that the rabbis who wrote a letter in 1933 in support of the Nazis’ moral values were pro-Holocaust.
The greatest injustices committed against African-Americans after Reconstruction were sanctioned by a Republican-appointed Supreme Court, beginning with the Civil Rights Cases of 1883, which declared Jim Crow laws constitutional, thereby institutionalizing segregation for the next 75 years.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:33 amThe number 1 reason is that teachers unions prevent the preparation of students for a capitalist economy, which is why it is imperative that inner city blighted areas receive vouchers to escape the cycle of poverty.
-capitalism is taught in schools.
-I think most people would support a voucher system if it is fully funded and everyone who wants one gets one excluding those who can afford tuition.
The second reason is that the Democratic Party sows discord and division among minorities, and tells them not to try to elavate themselves, but instead just vote for Dems and receive handouts.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — February 11, 2007 @ 11:01 am
Which Democrat said this?
February 11th, 2007 at 11:35 amJason:
Link.
Have a nice day.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:36 amI concur with miles, Kristol needs to have his teeth kicked down his throat. This MF has not only been consistantly wrong, he has been deliberately deceptive in his support of cherrypicked and manipulated intellegence.
Any democratic presidential candidate who supported going to war should be afraid. They will not get a free pass. They are complicit in the tragic loss of our brave soldiers and billions of dollars that could have been better spent in the defense of our country. It is beyond belief that they can even show their face and ask for our vote. They better get some balls soon and get the impeachment train rolling or they are going to be rolled over. I know one thing about Obama, he was against this war from the beginning and he has never waivered from his position. Senator Clinton on the other hand used her support of the war to position herself right of center in preparation for 08.
I have come to the conclusion that anything that come from the mouth of Bill Kristol is a lie to further support an illegal war and for that he deserves to have his teeth kicked in. GD I am so pissed. I want some action against these lying thugs who have hijacked our country.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:36 amFocks Newbs where clowns pretend to be journalists and the retards who watch them are a bunch of inbreds.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:36 amProgressives watch Fox News more than any other demographic.
Comment by Vince P
Someone has to monitor the lies.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:36 amObama, by announcing in Springfield, IL and describing himself as physically similar to Lincoln, made the comparison – Kristol merely refuted it.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — February 11, 2007 @ 11:33 am
He didn’t refute it; he made an ass out of himself.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:37 amPM of Australia:
“If I were running al-Qaida in Iraq, I would put a circle around March 2008 and be praying as many times as possible for a victory, not only for Obama but also for the Democrats.â€
February 11th, 2007 at 11:37 amJason,
The companies in question have a right to advertise on this program, and I have the right to not buy their products.
Also you as usual misread Juan’s comments, he said the US has the highest poverty rate of an developed country.
So what is your opinion of Kristol refrencing slavery while talking about the only serious black candidate for the office of president?
February 11th, 2007 at 11:37 amJason makes his homo-lust rather apparent with his non-sequitors, therefore deserves to be deleted, and ignored.
Comment by wake-n-bake
He could be chased out with a platoon of transexuals.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:38 amHe calls Obama someone who would have backed slavery? Kristol has gone insane and must be deported to Israel ASAP! Shame on him!
February 11th, 2007 at 11:39 am#82, Nat,
Why must individuals who create / save wealth be punished? All these “means testing” provisions discourage viable behaviours and reward non-viable behaviours?
We should keep wealth in the hands of those who know how to create / save it.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:39 amI have a new nickname for Kristol ” The Spin Doctor ” Get use to this garbage ladies and gentlemen it’s only going to get worse. It’s important for the Democrats to jump all over this propaganda and expose it for what it really is. Lastly , anybody with any common sense at all can see how ridiculous that statement is.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:40 amYes, Obama has cast himself in the mold of Lincoln. Others have cast him in the light of the Kennedys. He can cast himself in any light that he chooses.
I observed in my pieces on him that he should be careful choosing Lincoln. There is so much baggage attached to it. Look at his announcement–it was mostly white people because Springfield is a white town. Why did he not announce at the State of the Black Union?
Jesse suggested he do that. Not a bad idea really. Obama wants to straddle the fence racially. Whites think he walks on water, blacks are either strongly for or against him.
Yes, I agree why is KKKristol bringing up slavery in regards to Obama? That’s why I hate liberals. At least you know what you are getting with the GOP, rich white peter pans.
Heloise
February 11th, 2007 at 11:40 amMarket forces determine the value of their supposed contribution, so what did they squander their wealth on, while others saved / invest / created their own wealth?
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — February 11, 2007 @ 11:27 am
Everyone is living off borrowed money. They’re following in Bush’s footsteps.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:42 amWe should keep wealth in the hands of those who know how to create / save it.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler
How does one CREATE wealth? Please, explain.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:44 amWhy must individuals who create / save wealth be punished? All these “means testing†provisions discourage viable behaviours and reward non-viable behaviours?
They’re not being punished; those who want to send their children to private school and can’t are being punished.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:45 amHere you go Vince,
I cherry picked this out of the Australian PM’s interview.
Let’s look at the similarities between him and George Botch shall we?
Sounds like we can discount him for lack of credibility on any issue concerning Iraq, just like Botch.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:48 amAt first, the right wing seems to be very sly at lying and skewing and spinning information. If you weren’t really someone who followed politics you may actually have been fooled.
But now…. now they are just SO out there, it’s amazing! And because of this absolutely ridiculous statement… this absolutely transparent lie… this makes me want to vote for Obama even more.
Because the more asinine the lies are from the right – the more I know that the person they are lying about is right for the job.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:48 amMarket forces determine the value of their supposed contribution, so what did they squander their wealth on, while others saved / invest / created their own wealth?
Jason, don’t be such a blatant jerk…
The bottonline is that you like Capitalism because it allows you to horde more than you need.
How exactly do you sleep at night knowing that people in America are struggling because you took their share? In a world of limited resources, there is only ever enough to go around if you ONLY take what you need, and not more. And you do want more than you deserve, Jason. It’s as pbvious as the nose on your face.
You’re just defending Capitalism because without it to make you fat and rich, you’d be nothing. What you’re missing is that spiritually, where it really matters, you’re already a nothing… It is only through human compassion that you can ever be ethical or moral.
Thankyou for repeating Hill’reh’s sentiments about seizing profits and wealth.
First of all, I’m not a Hillary fan (are you unable to spell correctly now too?).
Secondly, she never said that. Gregor already debunked you on this.
Third of all, neither did I. I said that greedy bastards like you shouldn’t be allowed to take what you haven’t earned, or get tax breaks when others do not. Big difference.
It is NOT your money,
YES, it is! I (representative of the average non-wealthy American who works) pay into the system while rich bastards like you take from it.
and fortunately SCOTUS upholds property rights and the right of contract, so you will never get your hands on it.
You sound just like a spoiled rotten brat. You like that about yourself? It’s disgusting. Stealing tax money from the poor, the starving, the sick…
You can say it isn’t ours, but Jason – do the math. It is ours. No wonder you fear Communism and try to smear it. You know that in a Communistic society, you’d actually have to do something to contribute… And you can’t. LOL
Moreover, in my parochial schools,
Aka – inferior academic institutions of brain-washing.
Funny how you brag about it…
The value of the wealthy neocons ISN’T the wealth they possess, but their ability to CREATE wealth, and train others to create wealth also.
I call bullshit. No one’s potential is worth millions more than those who actualize their ideas. No one.
Didn’t you learn from Katrina that wars, disease and/or natural disasters will cause damage far in excess of even the US’s economy to fix?
If we hadn’t wasted all that money in an unnecessary war on Iraq, we would have had the moeny to have prevented and repaired the damage from Katrina. Why haven’t you learned that?
We are long past the point of being able to take care of our own, thanks to unions, and will have a massive economic implosion when China and India hit full stride. At that point, you will have already “killed off†the wealth generators in the US, and will be left to the tender mercies of the Asian economic super powers.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — February 11, 2007 @ 11:27 am
No, it’s not the unions that are the problem – it’s greedy bastards like you who value a person in terms of the size of their bank account.
Keep telling yourself your delusional fairytales… You’re the only one left listening…
February 11th, 2007 at 11:48 amFirst of all, Kristol equating Obama with Douglas was NOT to say, or even imply, that Obama supported slavery. It was the Douglas, like all the Copperhead Democrats, thought that Civil War should not happen and wasn’t going to be worth it.
Now, go back to 1860. You have this Hobson’s choice. You can vote for one of two racists: Douglas or Lincoln, neither of whom had gone on record at that point advocating the end of Slavery. One of the candidates, Douglas, would likely allow the South to secede. The other, Lincoln, would not. It wasn’t about whether slavery should exist at all…it was about wheter slavery should be allowed in the territories.
Oh, and if you voted for the REPUBLICAN candiate, who though slavery should continue as long as it doesn’t spread, but that the Union should remain no matter what….if you voted for HIM,
. . .SIX HUNDRED THOUSAND PEOPLE WERE GOING TO DIE.
For an idea.
Oh, and there were going to be prisons, like Andesonville, that make Abu Ghuraib look like a resort.
You guys ought to wake up to history. And on the grand stage of history, the proscenium is slathered in blood.
So, yeah, in a way, in one very specific way, Obama IS like Stephen Douglas. He will punt, because for him, this particular war is not worth it.
In the end, you can’t judge that…and I can’t judge that. Only history will judge it.
And, ladies and gentlemen, if Obama can make good on his promise to get out and, as a result, 3 million Sunnis get slaughtered and displaced from Baghdad in a fury of ethnic genocide…well, history will judge that too.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:48 amWe should keep wealth in the hands of those who know how to create / save it.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — February 11, 2007 @ 11:39 am
I will simply say robber barons, and the rise of the labor movement.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:49 amHuh? So Obama would have have been FOR oppressing his own kind? Oh yeah, that makes sense.
NOT
February 11th, 2007 at 11:49 am#89, Krazny,
Obama compared himself to Lincoln, and talked of “working together”. Kristol merely mentioned the most contentious issue of Lincoln’s day, and how Lincoln approached it, saying that it may take a civil war to resolve, which IS different from Obama’s statements. It just happened, that Lincoln’s most contentious issue was slavery.
Again, Obama brought up Lincoln, so civil war comparisons, and the issues pertaining to the civil war, would certainly come up.
Are you saying that we can’t debate Obama, because he is black?
February 11th, 2007 at 11:50 amwake-n-bake : Public opinion polls alone have no bearing on a war’s legitimacy. I find it odd that people who alledgedly are for the protection of minorities against the majority RUN to the arms of majority rules on this single issue.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:52 am#97, Juan,
One must examine the marketplace, identify a need that further generates wealth, then meet that need.
#98, Nat,
I agree that those without the means to attend the school of their choice ARE being punished, but to deny funds to the wealthy, because they ARE wealthy, is ALSO unfair. Everyone should be provided the money to send their children to the schools of their choice.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:52 amKPK: Being a Progressive means never having to think about the consequences of your actions. (Though they will harp endlessly about the mistakes of others)
February 11th, 2007 at 11:54 amAre you saying that we can’t debate Obama, because he is black?
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — February 11, 2007 @ 11:50 am
So if Obama said that we was for a civil war to fix things (socio-economic slavery, actually), you’d like his message better?
Can’t debate him because he is black? You are really desperate…
February 11th, 2007 at 11:56 amThere seems to be no depth that these Fox lackeys won’t sink to. They’re the Shock Jocks for racist, biggoted, fundamentalist nutballs. I have to wonder if this guys teeth can get kicked in though, they look pretty resilient.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:56 amBeing a Progressive means never having to think about the consequences of your actions. (Though they will harp endlessly about the mistakes of others)
Comment by Vince P — February 11, 2007 @ 11:54 am
Prove it. Or STFU.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:57 amHuh? So Obama would have have been FOR oppressing his own kind? Oh yeah, that makes sense.
NOT
Comment by jake3988
Well the Muslims were the ones who were selling Black Africans to Europeans as slaves, so it’s possible that he’s self-conflicted if you’re going to use his identity as a basis for your indignation.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:57 amWhy? You already did.
Nice way to not quantify your assertion.
You’re a psychic?
Well, I did predict you would find as many ways as you could to tell me I was wrong before I hit the “Post-I agree” button;)
The Right seems to find humor in what the Left finds degrading and appalling (insulting others to feel better about yourselves).
Ok, now you are generalizing. Do you see me doing that? I do not have to tear someone down to build myself up. Bash any Christians lately?
I read the whole thing. I think Kristol was wrong. You haven’t demonstrated why with facts – just made some psychic predictions
And neither have you. I voiced my translation of what was said. I did not assert it was fact.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:59 amPublic opinion polls alone have no bearing on a war’s legitimacy.
Comment by Vince P
Of course not. War legitimacy is achieved with lies as we all know and knew this…
February 11th, 2007 at 12:00 pmKristol’s biggest problem is that his innate disingenuousness shows 100% completely on his face. It isn’t too far of a stretch to say that he literally looks and sounds like a weasel. He could take some lessons on looking slick while lying from, say, Mitt Romney.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:00 pm” I have to wonder if this guys teeth can get kicked in”
I wonder how many threats of violence are in this thread.
Pathetic people.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:00 pmJason: Take an Economics 101 course, then come back. You don’t know the first thing about economics.
The simple fact is that the current American system is NOT capitalism, under any definition of the term; the rule of Capitalism in the U.S. ended with the Great Depression. A large proportion of the largest corporations in the U.S. could simply not survive without Government welfare, whether it be in the form of tax breaks or cost-plus contracts.
It’s also a myth that the rich are the wealth generators in this society. Speculation does not generate wealth; only actual production does, either in the form of goods or services. The investor class contributes NOTHING to the GDP; their contribution actually tends to be negative, since most of the money they tend to accumulate they tend to re-invest outside the country; most of the time in hidden financial tools provided by some of the most corrupt financial jurisdictions in the world, e.g. The Caimans. You would not believe how much of your tax dollars end up in Swiss numbered accounts or Caiman-based annuity schemes.
Simply put, the vast majority of the wealth of the United States has been and is still being created by Small and Medium businesses, the kind of Mom and Pop operations which this administration has been so keen to destroy.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:00 pmVince P
The lack of legitimacy is owned by those who loose the trust of the people by lying in order to start a war, not the war itselft. Therefore, we can discount what they say, cause they lie and therefore their actions are not deemed legitimate.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:01 pmComment by AshenShard — February 11, 2007 @ 11:23 am
this is a great point and someting to think about. But at the same tome, the choice of location seem to be jsut politics as usual. A meaningful message can be delivered from ANY location. anything else is just so much “stagecraft.”
February 11th, 2007 at 12:02 pm“Prove it. Or STFU”
FOAD
February 11th, 2007 at 12:02 pmI agree that those without the means to attend the school of their choice ARE being punished, but to deny funds to the wealthy, because they ARE wealthy, is ALSO unfair. Everyone should be provided the money to send their children to the schools of their choice.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — February 11, 2007 @ 11:52 am
There’s nothing unfair about it. They can afford to send their children to private school.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:02 pm#100, unbee,
WRONG! Capitalism allows one to generate / create wealth – I horded nothing. My actions produced wealth for myself and many others who were involved, at a rate faster than I could spend it.
I feel for those who honestly try, but understand that most probably voted for a Democrat at some point in their lives, and now suffer the consequences – it’s karmic.
I defend capitalism, because I freely admit that I, alone, cannot generate all the wealth needed to help everyone else, and prefer to teach others to help themselves – it is the only Christian thing to do. Due to the tactics of my enemies, who follow the teachings of Sun Tsu, I must suspend my Christianity to defeat them.
SCOTUS states otherwise. I am showing you the path to generate your own wealth, ignore it at your own peril. I have created tremendous wealth, and want to help you do the same, how is that selfish?
February 11th, 2007 at 12:03 pmVince P: And how do you know that Obama is a muslim? Because, as far as I know, he never was. His biological father was born into a muslim family, but considering that he considered himself an Atheist, he would have been considered an apostate by any muslim in the world.
Get your facts straight; you might sound more intelligent.
And BTW, it’s not the Progressives who started this desastrous, useless war. It was you conservatives. Yet now you claim that WE try to avoid the consequences of our actions??? What are you doing here? Why aren’t you in Iraq?
February 11th, 2007 at 12:04 pmPathetic people.
Comment by Vince P
Yet you support guys who throw bombs over civilians. Thats no pathetic. Thats criminal. Congrats.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:04 pmWith Kristol’s track record, maybe Obama should start writing his inaugural address.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:05 pmNice way to not quantify your assertion.
As I told you – make an argument on facts, I’ll debate it. Just toss unfounded opinions, then you get back more of what you gave.
Frustrating, isn’t it? To get non-answers to your questions? Pretty much how we feel during most conversations with conservatives.
Well, I did predict you would find as many ways as you could to tell me I was wrong before I hit the “Post-I agree†button;)
That’s not psychic – that’s logical :)
Ok, now you are generalizing. Do you see me doing that? I do not have to tear someone down to build myself up. Bash any Christians lately?
Actually, you did. Honestly, robert, I’m just giving you back what you’re giving me. I thought it would better make my points… Seems I’m psychic (aka logical) myself…
And neither have you. I voiced my translation of what was said. I did not assert it was fact.
Comment by hacker bob — February 11, 2007 @ 11:59 am
I did in my first two posts – which you refuted. You just told me it wasn’t the same.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:06 pmIt just goes to show you how far the Republican party has fallen. The only reason a Republican would EVER take up a cause like this today would be to apply a correction to improve their own bottom line. Pathetic.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:06 pmrobert – if you don’t base your opinions on facts, then what do you based them upon?
February 11th, 2007 at 12:06 pmThe dems always supported slavery. That’s how they became into exisistence.
http://www.cafenetamerica.com
February 11th, 2007 at 12:07 pmKPK: Being a Progressive means never having to think about the consequences of your actions. (Though they will harp endlessly about the mistakes of others)
Comment by Vince P — February 11, 2007 @ 11:54 am
Of course you have to think about the consequences of your actions. We just won’t let a person’s life be ruined because it. republicans would spit on them, leave them destitute and to die off and won’t have a second thought about it.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:07 pmNo one lied about anything before the War.
In fact that accusation is the lie.
Here [0] are a collection of quotes, spanning 1998- 2003 of Democrats supporting the premise that Iraq still had WMD and supporting the Congressional resolution to give Bush authority.
I have to say in some cases teh Democrats were much more eloquent in their building a case for war than Bush himself.
You people lie about the past , lie about the present. You are unable to handle anything you dont like without getting into emotional fits. It’s like dealing with kids.
[0]
February 11th, 2007 at 12:08 pmhttp://home.comcast.net/~vincep312/iraqquotes.html
Of course you have to think about the consequences of your actions. We just won’t let a person’s life be ruined because it. republicans would spit on them, leave them destitute and to die off and won’t have a second thought about it.
How much destruction awaits Iraq if the US were to leave now as many wish it to?
February 11th, 2007 at 12:08 pmThe dems always supported slavery. That’s how they became into exisistence.
http://www.cafenetamerica.com
Comment by Joe — February 11, 2007 @ 12:07 pm
February 11th, 2007 at 12:10 pmInteresting statement, Joe. I wonder, how is that today’s South is SO RED?
Vince P:
Read this.
Thanks. You have been played like a sweet Stradivarius.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:12 pmwake-n-bake : Public opinion polls alone have no bearing on a war’s legitimacy. I find it odd that people who alledgedly are for the protection of minorities against the majority RUN to the arms of majority rules on this single issue.
Comment by Vince P — February 11, 2007 @ 11:52 am
I agree. For example, Hitler had the support of the German public.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:12 pmBy the time the campaign is over, Obama will have exposed the Beltway’s racism in a way nobody ever has. It’s almost unbelievable how easily these morons like Kristol give voice to their bigotry.
As part of that, Obama will also call out the MSM’s general bias. It’s a small step from Kristol’s performance today to realizing how utterly complicit the media are in promoting the Republican agenda. How else to explain why someone like Kristol, who has been wrong about EVERYTHING, continues to be given a bully pulpit.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:13 pmWill have to continue this later, time for lunch.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:13 pmHow much destruction awaits Iraq if the US were to leave now as many wish it to?
Comment by Vince P — February 11, 2007 @ 12:08 pm
Why don’t you tell us?
February 11th, 2007 at 12:14 pmWell the Muslims were the ones who were selling Black Africans to Europeans as slaves, so it’s possible that he’s self-conflicted if you’re going to use his identity as a basis for your indignation.
Comment by Vince P —
Vince, is that what you were home-schooled to believe? How did the slaves get to America? Or did your parents forget to mention that part in your education?
February 11th, 2007 at 12:16 pmTap the brakes Vince,
Not all of us here are Dems. If I had my druthers, we scrap the two party system and start over. They’s all a bunch o-thieves, hell-bent on nothing more than maintaining power. And that’s not good for sustaining a healthy Democracy.
(power=money)
February 11th, 2007 at 12:16 pmAnd who in the Bush adminstration that had yet to exist lied to the Washington Post to have them write this:
Wahington Post January 2001 Editorial:
Of all the booby traps left behind by the Clinton administration, none is more dangerous–or more urgent–than the situation in Iraq. Over the last year, Mr. Clinton and his team quietly avoided dealing with, or calling attention to, the almost complete unraveling of a decade’s efforts to isolate the regime of Saddam Hussein and prevent it from rebuilding its weapons of mass destruction. That leaves President Bush to confront a dismaying panorama in the Persian Gulf [where] intelligence photos . . . show the reconstruction of factories long suspected of producing chemical and biological weapons.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:16 pmComment by unbelievable
My opinion is based off of what I read. The subject of the thread is the “fact” that is being debated and discussed.
And can you please show me where I tore someone down in order to build myself up and feel better about myself?
February 11th, 2007 at 12:17 pmNo, Nat.. I’m asking you.
Which goes directly to my statment… never think about the consequences of your actions.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:17 pmNo one lied about anything before the War.
In fact that accusation is the lie.
Here [0] are a collection of quotes, spanning 1998- 2003 of Democrats supporting the premise that Iraq still had WMD and supporting the Congressional resolution to give Bush authority.
Comment by Vince P — February 11, 2007 @ 12:08 pm
I explained these quotes with you or somebody else sometime last week.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:17 pmWRONG!
You only say that when I have busted you.
Capitalism allows one to generate / create wealth – I horded nothing. My actions produced wealth for myself and many others who were involved, at a rate faster than I could spend it.
Your delusions of grandeur are hilarious, but Jason, no one can be more self-serving than you. It’s all about you. You help no one. You generate nothing. You’re simply a leech.
I feel for those who honestly try, but understand that most probably voted for a Democrat at some point in their lives, and now suffer the consequences – it’s karmic.
You feel for no one. If you actually left your condo on accasion to meet people, you wouldn’t need theories on them.
I defend capitalism, because I freely admit that I, alone, cannot generate all the wealth needed to help everyone else, and prefer to teach others to help themselves – it is the only Christian thing to do.
Oh my god… You are seriously full of yourself. You don’t generate enough wealth to feed your own fat ass, much less anyone else’s.
You’re as much of a Christian as I am. No, wait – I’m more of a Christian than you.
Due to the tactics of my enemies, who follow the teachings of Sun Tsu, I must suspend my Christianity to defeat them.
You cannot suspend your Christianity for the sake of your paranoia. Either you are a Christian or you’re a hypocrite calling himself one. And I already addressed this above…
SCOTUS states otherwise. I am showing you the path to generate your own wealth, ignore it at your own peril.
You patronizing twit – I am smarter than you. I could be rich if I wanted. I find rich to be unethical. I choose to, instead, care about people rather than money. I know you don’t get it. I no longer expect you to.
I have created tremendous wealth, and want to help you do the same, how is that selfish?
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — February 11, 2007 @ 12:03 pm
Your ‘tremendous’ wealth is at the expense of others. It’s bllod money, and I don’t want anything to do with it. It turns most people paranoid, lazy, dishonest and corrupt.
I repeat – when you take more than you need (that is hording), you are harming other people. That is the epitome of selfish. And you, Jason are their poster child.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:17 pmSimply put, the vast majority of the wealth of the United States has been and is still being created by Small and Medium businesses, the kind of Mom and Pop operations which this administration has been so keen to destroy.
Comment by Denis Robert — February 11, 2007 @ 12:00 pm
Great post!
February 11th, 2007 at 12:18 pm#132: Vince, How about these:
1. Atta met Iraqi intelligence in Prague: Even before that claim was made public, it had been utterly debunked. Yet TO THIS DAY, Cheney, Wolfie and Feith STILL claim it’s true. Which means that NOT ONLY did they lie before the war, THEY ARE STILL lying to this day.
2. Yellowcake: We all know this one. The 16 words weren’t simply wrong. They were a complete, known fabrication. By the time the State of the Union speech was made, the falsehood of that claim was well known, both by the intelligence community AND by the White House. If you followed the Libby trial, you’d know that.
3. Mobile Labs: Powell’s speech at the U.N. may very well represent the lowest point in the whole lead up to the War. The claim of Mobile Biological labs was so farcical that most in the intelligence community asked themselves whether it was a joke. No one in their right minds would make such a claim with straight face. That claim did NOT come from the CIA. It came straight from Feith’s Office of Special Plans. And Feith knew VERY WELL that the so-called source for that claim had already been thoroughly been discredited (”Curveball”) by the very agency which had debriefed him (German Intelligence).
Here’s three cases of clear cut lying. I’m sure that with 15 minutes on Google, I’d be able to find any number of others…
But I’m sure you never got this information from Faux News.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:19 pmWe all know KrystonaStick is a racist asswipe.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:20 pmHe’s in character, now isn’t he!
Jason: Wealth comes from exploiting nature and labor, not from capitalists. Capitalists appropriate the wealth created by exploiting nature and labor and then use that wealth to dictate the circumstances of existence to the rest of us. Whatever rights and privileges the people have under capitalism have to be fought for and defended constantly.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:21 pmAnd as for the attack on teachers, or “teacher’s unions,” as you put it, all I have to say is, if you don’t like what teachers are doing, go down in the “ghettos” and educate those poor folks yourself. But not with my tax money!
Outrageous, you people are.
>Vince, is that what you were home-schooled to believe? How did the slaves get to America? Or did your parents forget to mention that part in your education?
Um they got here by the Europeans.
American slavery is a legacy of European colonial institutions.
Like in so many other things, the Europeans make a big mess of something, then decide they’re too good to do anything to repair it and leave it for us to suffer with.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:21 pmHow much destruction awaits Iraq if the US were to leave now as many wish it to?
Comment by Vince P
Now you guys are worried about it? Where was this concern for the Iraqis well being during shock and awe? We tried to tell you that you would be opening the gates of hell in Iraq, and you yahoos wouldn’t listen. To now come around bleating about the poor Iraqis shows how unserious you guys were, and still are. Your grand experiment has failed and you’re desperate not to be tarred with it’s failure. You could care less about the Iraqi people.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:21 pmIn 1992, a year after the first Gulf War, I heard Dick Cheney, then secretary of defense, say that the US had been wise not to invade Baghdad and get ‘bogged down in the problems of trying to take over and govern Iraq’. I heard him say: ‘The question in my mind is how many additional American casualties is Saddam worth? And the answer is: not that damned many.’
In February 2001, I heard Colin Powell say that Saddam Hussein ‘has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbours.’
That same month, I heard that a CIA report stated: ‘We do not have any direct evidence that Iraq has used the period since Desert Fox to reconstitute its weapons of mass destruction programmes.’
From Juan’s link (I know how neocons won’t read links).
February 11th, 2007 at 12:21 pm“Prove it. Or STFUâ€
FOAD
Comment by Vince P — February 11, 2007 @ 12:02 pm
So, you can’t prove it then?
I didn’t think so.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:23 pmnever think about the consequences of your actions.
Comment by Vince P
Coming from one of this war’s biggest cheerleaders, this is damn funny.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:24 pmDenis: unlike you I dont watch Fox news.
What’s with all of your mispelling Fox news as if it’s the only news organization that fakes the news. (which it doesnt do).
Where is this anger at CBS for faking NG papers
NBC for faking dangers of SUVs
Reuters for being a mouth piece of Hezbellah and for doctoring it’s photos
The AP for inventing sources in Iraq and for serving as the media division of the terrorists there
For Newsweek for false reporting on the toliet-soiled korans
For CNN for not reporting news in Iraq so that Saddam would allow thier office to stay open
For BBC to fabricating that the UK govt “sexed up” a report
NYT for its reporters who make up stories.
The Washington Press for thier absolutely disgraceful job with the Plame non-issue.
etc.
What has Fox done? Nothing that I can think of.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:25 pm#
>Some of you must watch this show every week
Progressives watch Fox News more than any other demographic.
Comment by Vince P — February 11, 2007 @ 11:24 am
Ok, “Vince.” Perhaps you can provide a link to substantiate THIS claim? But I’m doubtful there’s anymore fact or truth behind this particular statement than there is with anything you throw out there.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:25 pmWahington Post January 2001 Editorial:
Of all the booby traps left behind by the Clinton administration, none is more dangerous–or more urgent–than the situation in Iraq. Over the last year, Mr. Clinton and his team quietly avoided dealing with, or calling attention to, the almost complete unraveling of a decade’s efforts to isolate the regime of Saddam Hussein and prevent it from rebuilding its weapons of mass destruction. That leaves President Bush to confront a dismaying panorama in the Persian Gulf [where] intelligence photos . . . show the reconstruction of factories long suspected of producing chemical and biological weapons.
Comment by Vince P — February 11, 2007 @ 12:16 pm
It says Washington Post Editorial.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:25 pmWill have to continue this later, time for lunch.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — February 11, 2007 @ 12:13 pm
Yes, we’ll get the results of that meal… As always.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:25 pmAt least Evangelikill proves that Bill Kristol is not the stupidest man commenting on politics.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:25 pmVince, #149: And you’re not European? The U.S. itself is the legacy of European Colonial Institutions. Or don’t you learn that in school?
So “Leave it for us to repair it” is quite funny. The U.S. is the direct beneficiary of the British Colonial system. You have benefited from it, now you pay for it. Karmic…
February 11th, 2007 at 12:26 pmI love it. The more silly sh*t that comes out of Fox News the better!
It’ just confirms who the really are: right-wing TV central
February 11th, 2007 at 12:27 pmLike in so many other things, the Europeans make a big mess of something, then decide they’re too good to do anything to repair it and leave it for us to suffer with.
Comment by Vince P
Yet you overlook the demand for slavery here was intense during the development of the poor, dirty south.
Over half of this nation was built with the blood and sweat of FREE labor by exploiting fellow humans. Despicable.
Still people bitch about affirmative action. We do owe them.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:28 pmMy opinion is based off of what I read. The subject of the thread is the “fact†that is being debated and discussed.
But if your opinions aren’t based off of facts, then what are they based off of?
But you aren’t posting facts. Jason is debating Capitalism instead – and Vince is just masterbating in public… Not sure what the Right’s ‘facts’ are is on this.
And can you please show me where I tore someone down in order to build myself up and feel better about myself?
Comment by hacker bob — February 11, 2007 @ 12:17 pm
Start with Post #11
February 11th, 2007 at 12:28 pmUm they got here by the Europeans.
American slavery is a legacy of European colonial institutions.
Like in so many other things, the Europeans make a big mess of something, then decide they’re too good to do anything to repair it and leave it for us to suffer with.
Comment by Vince P — February 11, 2007 @ 12:21 pm
So after we freed ourselves from those Europeans, we kept the institution of slavery for another 100 years than we instituted a policy of apartheid up until the sixties.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:31 pmSomeone get this effing idiot off the airwaves. Please!!
February 11th, 2007 at 12:31 pm# 150. Barfly:
Exactly right. The hypocrisy is astounding.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:32 pm>2. Yellowcake: We all know this one. The 16 words weren’t simply wrong. They were a complete, known fabrication. By the time the State of the Union speech was made, the falsehood of that claim was well known, both by the intelligence community AND by the White House. If you followed the Libby trial, you’d know that.
God, are we going here again?
“The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.”
That had nothing to do with the italian forgeries or Mr. Plame’s junket.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:32 pmUm they got here by the Europeans.
Like in so many other things, the Europeans make a big mess of something, then decide they’re too good to do anything to repair it and leave it for us to suffer with.
Comment by Vince P
So Vince, there were no American slave runners?
Since we know there were, don’t you feel silly typing the above? How did the europeans force the Americans to use slaves? Or did Americans willingly adopt the practice, even supporting their views with biblical scripture?
February 11th, 2007 at 12:33 pm162 comments in two hours. I won’t even try to read any of them (though I do like #1). Since this is Kristol I assume that most of them mock this sick, pathetic fool in one hilarious way or another.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:33 pmWow Vince, I’d almost believe you never watch Faux News, except that:
“Where is this anger at CBS for faking NG papers”: They didn’t fake them. Or have you not followed the story past it’s first airing.
“NBC for faking dangers of SUVs”: What the *** are you talking about. It’s the US Government who had been warning, TRUTHFULLY, about the rollover dangers of SUVs, not NBC.
“Reuters for being a mouth piece of Hezbellah and for doctoring it’s photos”: That’s a canard. One photograph was doctored BY A FREELANCE PHOTOG; Reuters apologized and pulled the picture. END OF STORY.
“The AP for inventing sources in Iraq and for serving as the media division of the terrorists there”: What invention. Get you head out of Malkkkin’s A**. The source was confirmed to exist by the Iraq government itself.
“For Newsweek for false reporting on the toliet-soiled korans”: Haven’t seen a solid rebuttal of that story to this day.
“For CNN for not reporting news in Iraq so that Saddam would allow thier office to stay open”: That’s true, BUT IT’S FROM THE 1st GULF WAR. Don’t forget that the people involved in that issue went to work for FAUX NEWS!!!!
“For BBC to fabricating that the UK govt “sexed up†a report”: The BBC did not “fabricate” this story. It was an actual UK Government Report which stated that the Government had “sexed-up” intelligence. Nice try, no go.
“NYT for its reporters who make up stories.”: You mean, like Judy Miller and Michael Gordon? Yep, have to agree with you there…
“The Washington Press for thier absolutely disgraceful job with the Plame non-issue.”: Let’s see: a NOC (Non-Official Cover) CIA operative AND her entire brass-plate company working to fight NUCLEAR PROLIFERATION in Iraq and Iran are outed by Government Officials in order to discredit the CORRECT reporting of a critic, thus ENDANGERING the NATION. Nope, no big deal, none at all. Once again, pay attention to the Libby trial, you might learn something.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:36 pmwake-n-bake: I’m not overlooking anything.. Nor am i about to write a thesis paper to comprehensively addresss 100s of years of slavery. Criticize me for the things I’ve said not for the things I haven’t
February 11th, 2007 at 12:36 pmand Vince is just masterbating in public…
Comment by unbelievable
Maybe his BF. will give him a hand with that.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:36 pmThese NeoCon “intellectuals” are making me wish a “Pol Pot” type of cleanup on the Heritage Foundation.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:38 pm“The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa.â€
Comment by Vince P — February 11, 2007 @ 12:32 pm
The president should have said:
“The British government has learned [but the U.S. intelligence agencies have not verified] that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa. [In fact CIA said this shouldn't be in the speech].â€
February 11th, 2007 at 12:39 pmDear Huffington Post,
February 11th, 2007 at 12:39 pmYou Repeat the Republican’s dirty tricks in your headlines time and time again. By doing so you are playing into their hands. Some people read only your headlines then pick the ones they choose to read. If for instance they read the Kristol headline then skip on to other stories, that dirty trick is stuck in their memory, like it or not.
I think you should play intelligently dirty by ignoring completely Kristol’s story and immediately hit the back by printing a totally different dirty story about Kristol. I’m sure there are plenty from which to choose.
In conclusion, look at election results. Dirty WINS, and the nice polite guy LOSES usually. Ignore and immediately ATTACK the S.O.B.s.
I love Huffington Post. Read it daily. Thanks for your hard work. A.H.
A certain NOC shouldn’t have sent HER HUSBAND on an issue of great importance of the time .
You would have thought maybe just maybe if she was such a great undercover operative (and I’ve seen no evidence that she was under that legal status) that it wouldnt be in her interest to have her husband be involved in something of political significance.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:40 pmI used to have a modicum of resepct for Bill Kristol because, even though he is insane, he’d defend himself on the Daily Show and such. That deserves SOME credit.
But now his insanity is just overwhelming.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:40 pmthat screen shot… kirisol looks like he’s in lalaland…
“…eh heh… whaaa? i’m right, right? eh heh heh…”
he must pay fox to get on everyweek… pro bono at least…
February 11th, 2007 at 12:41 pmI wonder, how is that today’s South is SO RED?
You dont think the dems would stay and work the fields themselves do you? They moved to northeast cities so they could deny their former slaves school choice.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:42 pm166: And what do you think the source was for the “UK” government? The same Italian forgeries you state, without evidence I might add, were NOT involved in the 16 words.
Not to mention that SISMI has some pretty tight links with a certain Michael Ledeen, member of AEI and good friend of Wolfie and Co. So there’s enough there to wonder if you own Fuhrer’s government might not have been the original source of the forgeries.
Nevertheless, the fact remains that THE ENTIRE THING HAD BEEN DEBUNKED WELL BEFORE THE SOTU. And not just by Wilson (your use of the word “junket” marks you as someone who simply has not read the first thing about the case), but by TWO OTHER sources, INCLUDING the US EMBASSADOR TO NIGER, for crying out loud.
So it’s still a lie, even though they made a lame attempt at deniability by blaming the UK for this.
PS: Do you believe that Wilson claimed that the VP send him to Niger?
February 11th, 2007 at 12:43 pmMaybe his BF. will give him a hand with that.
Comment by [B!] — February 11, 2007 @ 12:36 pm
Considering how much he loves himself, I’m guessing he prefers flying solo : )
February 11th, 2007 at 12:43 pm“You Repeat the Republican’s dirty tricks in your headlines time and time again. By doing so you are playing into their hands”
Such paranoria!!
Though I cant’ help but notice you folks have no problems playing into the hands of Al Qaida, but wooooo watch out if you perceive Huffington Post is being manipulated by evil Americans.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:44 pmI love Huffington Post. Read it daily. Thanks for your hard work. A.H.
Comment by A.H. — February 11, 2007 @ 12:39 pm
Uh… This is Think Progress…
February 11th, 2007 at 12:45 pmVince #175: Did Valerie Plame send her husband to Niger??? Didn’t know that. All I know is that Plame RECOMMENDED her husband for the job, BECAUSE he was EXTREMELY qualified for it, knowing PERSONALLY most of the people named in the so-called tip. She recommended him to her superiors, and her SUPERIORS sent Wilson.
This was no junket; I don’t know of anyone who would consider a trip to Niger a junket (Niger is not really one of those places one would take a nice vacation too; it’s certainly no Tahiti). Cheney was so desperate to make it LOOK like it was a junket that he ordered his minions, Libby primarily TO EXPOSE PLAME AS A NOC CIA AGENT.
Whether or not that was a crime, it remains a clear abuse of power. And there’s really nothing substantial you can state to change this fact.
Considering how desperately the VP tried to make it sound like Wilson claimed he personally had sent him, which is PATENTLY FALSE (Wilson has ALWAYS claimed that the CIA had sent him, not the VP), it shows how dishonest your buddies there are.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:48 pmA certain NOC shouldn’t have sent HER HUSBAND on an issue of great importance of the time .
Comment by Vince P — February 11, 2007 @ 12:40 pm
Wow… just when I thought you were about as desperate as you could get… You lowered the bar! Blame the hero! I bet you also blame the victims of crimes too, Vince?
By the way, Denis is really smoking you Vince.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:49 pmA certain NOC shouldn’t have sent HER HUSBAND on an issue of great importance of the time .
You would have thought maybe just maybe if she was such a great undercover operative (and I’ve seen no evidence that she was under that legal status) that it wouldnt be in her interest to have her husband be involved in something of political significance.
Comment by Vince P — February 11, 2007 @ 12:40 pm
Who cares if she sent him; why the hell would the Bush administration out a CIA agent?
February 11th, 2007 at 12:49 pmDenis: I have no idea about whatever Wilson claimed as to who sent him. Dont care either.. this entire episode isn’t one that got great interest from me. I’m disgusted by the political games in washington and I wish people would focus on the severe threats that are facing us and working on ways to counter them. Instead the tendancy (especialyl here) is to pound away endlessly about the past mistakes while offerring nothing in the way of alternatives. I get no value from that.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:50 pmUnbe,
You have a really subjective mind to see that I tore anyone down in post 11.
You didn’t answer my question by the way. Have you blasted any Christians lately, just for being Christians? After all, we know you NEVER tear anyone down.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:50 pmA certain NOC shouldn’t have sent HER HUSBAND on an issue of great importance of the time .
You would have thought maybe just maybe if she was such a great undercover operative (and I’ve seen no evidence that she was under that legal status) that it wouldnt be in her interest to have her husband be involved in something of political significance.
Comment by Vince P
How do you even breathe, being this stupid? Gee, she thought the rules still applied; I guess she wasn’t aware that 9/11 changed everything - including what a president and his cronies would do to “national security” simply for a political payback. Silly woman.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:51 pmYou dont think the dems would stay and work the fields themselves do you? They moved to northeast cities so they could deny their former slaves school choice.
Comment by Joe — February 11, 2007 @ 12:42 pm
C’mon, Joe. Pull your head out and take a deep breath. And then read some of the writings and speeches by Lincoln. Then you’ll understand just how far the Repubs have fallen.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:51 pmThough I cant’ help but notice you folks have no problems playing into the hands of Al Qaida,
Comment by Vince P — February 11, 2007 @ 12:44 pm
I would argue that the Bush administration is doing that.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:51 pmNat: The State Department “outed” her. The Anti-Bush State Department.
This is a lesson for spies out there… dont send your husband on a mission and then have him call attention to himself if you dont want to be discovered.
Is there any evidence that Joe and V were in any way concerned about maintain her alledged secret status?’
Ugh, i’m talking about this… no dont answer. This soap opera has squandered enough time.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:53 pmWhy the hell does anyone pay this bona fide imbecile any mind? This is the one who said something about it being “pop sociology” for those who said that there were sectarian problems in Iraq (sunni and shia) before the war. This guy is a complete idiot…and he ran Alan Keyes VASTLY SUCCESSFUL presidential campaign. Pop him like a zit and put some see breaze on him.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:53 pmPretty unfair headline! I’m no Kristol fan, in the least, but he’s not making the point that Obama would have been “Pro-Slavery”.. He’s talking about willingness to continue an unpopular and difficult military struggle. We on the left really need to avoid hyperbole if we’re going to raise the standard of thoughtful discussions.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:55 pmwhy the hell would the Bush administration out a CIA agent?
Comment by Nat
Scooter Lewis Libby knows.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:57 pmSmells treasonous to me.
I think Kristol is getting supplied with Ecstasy be someone…..he’s clearly high as a kite, and the shit he has to say is, if anything, less coherent than someone on drugs.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:58 pmThe State Department “outed†her. The Anti-Bush State Department.
While Rove and Libby were outing her as well.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:58 pmDenis: I have no idea about whatever Wilson claimed as to who sent him. Dont care either.. this entire episode isn’t one that got great interest from me. I’m disgusted by the political games in washington and I wish people would focus on the severe threats that are facing us and working on ways to counter them. Instead the tendancy (especialyl here) is to pound away endlessly about the past mistakes while offerring nothing in the way of alternatives. I get no value from that.
Comment by Vince P — February 11, 2007 @ 12:50 pm
People have offered alternatives but unfortunately Bush is The Deciderâ„¢.
February 11th, 2007 at 12:59 pm#170 Vince,
There’s not one iota of criticism in my post #161.
It’s an observation.
Sensitive, aren’t we?
February 11th, 2007 at 12:59 pmYou have a really subjective mind to see that I tore anyone down in post 11.
Not at all, I just recognize passive-aggressive behavior from my 1+ years of posting here…
All you have to do is apologize or make some polite remark, and then you’re generally free to insult others. Much like saying “bless his heart” after calling osmeone stupid, ugly, or a host of other opinions….
You didn’t answer my question by the way. Have you blasted any Christians lately, just for being Christians? After all, we know you NEVER tear anyone down.
Comment by hacker bob — February 11, 2007 @ 12:50 pm
Just for being Christians? Nope. I blast them for their hypocrisy. Which is abundant.
Besides, the oppressed (non-religious) can’t be oppressors… It’s false logic to suggest that they can. Would be like saying that the poor can oppress the rich in a Capitalistic society… That slaves can oppress robber baronsin an Industrialized Nation… That woman can oppress men in a patriarchal society.
I’m sure you’ll try – but it won’t be based on facts or reality…
February 11th, 2007 at 1:00 pmThis is a lesson for spies out there… dont send your husband on a mission and then have him call attention to himself if you dont want to be discovered.
Is there any evidence that Joe and V were in any way concerned about maintain her alledged secret status?’
Ugh, i’m talking about this… no dont answer. This soap opera has squandered enough time.
Comment by Vince P — February 11, 2007 @ 12:53 pm
Why would the Bush administration out a CIA agent?
February 11th, 2007 at 1:01 pmThe viewers on Alpha Centuri must be Rofl at the antics of the little worms on this mudball squiggling around throwing mud at each other pretending to have something important to say. Although I must say, this show is about to be canceled do to the fact that the story line is getting old.
This is just the sort of thing that Obama is hoping to bring to an end. I will be curious to see how he responds to all the mud that will be thrown at him.
February 11th, 2007 at 1:02 pm…douch…
February 11th, 2007 at 1:02 pm193: It’s not really unfair, since Kristol’s intent was exactly to smear Obama by comparing him to a known pro-slavery activist. It’s the same kind of language use that the Repugs indulge in when they emphasize his middle name (Barack HUSSEIN Obama), or mis-state his name as Barack Osama, Osama Obama (Rush Limbaugh’s favourite). It’s a side-smear. They make a possibly valid point, but make sure the point contains a not so well hidden smear.
It’s all from the standard Repug playbook.
February 11th, 2007 at 1:05 pmPretty unfair headline! I’m no Kristol fan, in the least, but he’s not making the point that Obama would have been “Pro-Slaveryâ€. He’s talking about willingness to continue [the occupation of a country that does not want to be occupied]. We on the left really need to avoid hyperbole if we’re going to raise the standard of thoughtful discussions.
Comment by Bill — February 11, 2007 @ 12:55 pm
I fixed it for you.
February 11th, 2007 at 1:07 pmto 202 you would know more about that than I.
February 11th, 2007 at 1:07 pmWhy are we still giving this dope a platform .Name one time he was right on any subject related to Iraq or for that matter anything.
February 11th, 2007 at 1:09 pmA certain NOC shouldn’t have…
hey! … that’s a giant step forward! … getting closer to the TRUTH!
not to worry – it’s great over here!
good to see the wingers finally admit to her actually being a NOC…
February 11th, 2007 at 1:09 pmit will all sink in eventually… hopefully not too late…
Didn’t this guy used to be known as Dan Quayle’s brain? I think Dan repossessed it.
February 11th, 2007 at 1:11 pmNot at all, I just recognize passive-aggressive behavior from my 1+ years of posting here…
Sorry, I do not play passive-aggressive. Not my style and you know that. I can honestly see, in the posted statement, where they are opposite. Yet again you can not show that I tore anyone down. That is your opinion, but it is not based on any visible fact.
Just for being Christians? Nope. I blast them for their hypocrisy. Which is abundant.
But you constantly call ALL Christian hypocrites. That is not the case, and you know that.
Besides, the oppressed (non-religious) can’t be oppressors… It’s false logic to suggest that they can. Would be like saying that the poor can oppress the rich in a Capitalistic society… That slaves can oppress robber baronsin an Industrialized Nation… That woman can oppress men in a patriarchal society.
We all know that the oppressed can not be the oppressors while they are oppressed. But when the time comes that they are no longer oppressed, can they not become the oppressor? If that happens, are they within their rights to be the oppressor? It does happen, and you know it does.
BTW, who is oppressing you freedom to be an Atheist? No one I know of. But if you had your way, you would oppress my right to practice my Christianity in public. That is the same thing they do in religiously oppressive countries like Saudi Arabia.
Face it, yo uhave moments when you are blinded by your ideology. That is not a bad thing. We are all subject to it.
February 11th, 2007 at 1:12 pmI don’t know why anyone gives him a platfrom to speak from.I don’t know one time he was right on Iraq or for that matter anything else
February 11th, 2007 at 1:14 pmAs someone who supported the war, I say now in retrospect not that the war was a mistake, but that’s it’s post-conflict prosecution has been nothing short of incompetent.
Had I known then what I know now…well, hindsight is 20-20.
Frankly, on the world stage, I don’t think we do ENOUGH to get rid of dictatorial mass murderers and genocidal movements. What’s happening in Darfur or in Zimbabwe,for example, (or what happened in Rwanda) is appalling beyond belief.
What the vast swath of “progressives” on this board simply don’t understand is that there are lot of really bad actors in this world. You wanna see some real nice goostepping and thrust-arm salutes? Take in Hezbollah parade sometimes. Or think about a guy like Moktada al Sadr. Wonder why he’s scowling all the time? Because, behind his Islamic vestments, he’s really a mafiosa-like thug with a bunch of street gangs.
And there was Saddam. Could he have been contained? Maybe. Maybe not. One thing you guys cannot dispute: he really liked Sarin. He may not have had any at the time we marched in, but, boy, he liked it and liked to have it. Oh, and he had aboslutely no qualms about using it.
And then we have the fact that his arch enemies the Iranians were really working hard to enrich unranium, which would likely prompt him to try to get his hands on the substance, too. And with sanctions coming off, and $60 a barrel oil…well, he’d have the means to get it. All the while, he’d continue to feed his internal enemies feet first, alive, into the whirring blades of an abbatoir. Oh, and don’t forget his boys! Uday and Qusay, those two bring new meaning to the phrase, “boys will be boys.”
You see, my “progressive” friends, the world is a lot more complicated and full of uncertainties and risks than you can possibly imagine.
So, now, we are in Iraq. There we are. Making it work may be hopeless. Then again, making it work may not only be possible, but essential. Sure, your side may be right is thinking we need to get out because, as the slippery phrase goes, “the solution now is political, not military.” But can you imagine, or conceive, that if we DO leave too soon, the “solution” will be ethnic cleansing on a scale that makes Bosnia and Kosovo look like a Friday night square dance?
Again, I don’t know the future. But, frankly, none of you “progressives,” despite your moral smugness, know either.
February 11th, 2007 at 1:28 pmI just hope that Obama hears about this remark having been made and makes a rebuttal remark real soon. He can’t allow himself to be “swift boated”.
February 11th, 2007 at 1:31 pmSorry, I do not play passive-aggressive. Not my style and you know that.
Actually, you do – and I’ve told you that I think so before.
I can honestly see, in the posted statement, where they are opposite. Yet again you can not show that I tore anyone down. That is your opinion, but it is not based on any visible fact.
The fact is post #11.
But you constantly call ALL Christian hypocrites. That is not the case, and you know that.
Show where I’ve called them ALL hypocrites.
Maybe they all are… I mean, read the Bible… It’s hard not to be. Jesus wanted everyone to live in communistic accord. Where on Earth is that a possibility?
We all know that the oppressed can not be the oppressors while they are oppressed. But when the time comes that they are no longer oppressed, can they not become the oppressor? If that happens, are they within their rights to be the oppressor? It does happen, and you know it does.
You can’t apply future possibilities to present situations.
And considering we’re still oppressing Native Americans and blacks, I find it hard to believe that religious majorities will stop oppressing people in our life time.
So, null and void on that approach.
BTW, who is oppressing you freedom to be an Atheist? No one I know of.
You’ve got to be kidding me…
Let’s start with the fact that I won a government claim for unemployment against a former employer for religious discrimination… And continue with the fact that there are ZERO Congress Representatives that are Atheists in a country where 15% of the country admits to not being religious…
Go around for a week and tell people you’re an Atheist. You’ll meet these oppressors. Trust me.
But if you had your way, you would oppress my right to practice my Christianity in public. That is the same thing they do in religiously oppressive countries like Saudi Arabia.
First of all – you’re building a very weak strawman.
The Constitution assures you have the right to be as much of a religious nut as you’d like. It was Jesus who told you that you should do it in private…
Face it, yo uhave moments when you are blinded by your ideology. That is not a bad thing. We are all subject to it.
Comment by hacker bob — February 11, 2007 @ 1:12 pm
I won’t admit something that isn’t true. And you can stop accusing me of it to dodge the fact that your religion is oppressive.
As I keep reminding you, you’ve seen me argue with liberals. I’ve yet to see you willfully agree with them on anything of substance. You only agree on minor points, and only when you find yourself painted into a corner.
February 11th, 2007 at 1:32 pmKPK: You’re like my clone. Raise sheilds. Watch as they bring up every mistake Bush made as if it invalidates anything you said about the fact that we’re there and if we leave, it will be a catastrophe.
BUt they really want to make sure you know about all of Bush’s mistakes in case no one told you before. Not that they care about what would happen if we left. Bush made mistakes. See
Bush made mistakes.
Doest matter if the Middle East meltsdown if we leave. Bush made mistakes and he’s a Republican.
February 11th, 2007 at 1:35 pm“No, I don’t know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.”
–George HW Bush, May 8, 1989
After Bush’s election, American Atheists wrote to Bush asking him to retract his statement. On February 21st 1989, C. Boyden Gray, Counsel to the President, replied on White House stationery that Bush substantively stood by his original statement, and wrote:
“As you are aware, the President is a religious man who neither supports atheism nor believes that atheism should be unnecessarily encouraged or supported by the government.”
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/mathew/arguments.html#bush
February 11th, 2007 at 1:36 pmTHE BOYCOTT IDEA IS THE ONLY ONE THAT WILL WORK.
February 11th, 2007 at 1:37 pmTHE WARFRONT IS HERE AT HOME, AND BOYCOTTING
IS THE ONLY WEAPON THAT CAN WIN THE WAR.
Comment by Sweet Daddy — February 11, 2007 @ 1:31 pm
Heezz’s baaaaaack.
February 11th, 2007 at 1:37 pmDo not feed.
Wow, what an imbecile. Why all the Lincoln comparisons lately, by the way?
February 11th, 2007 at 1:38 pmDoes anyone have any twink or preteen sex videos for sale or trade?
My present collection is boring the hell out of me. Trades and cash?
I prefer young boy videos age 4-8 is my age range. Anyone?
I like to seduce them with Fudge Stripe cookies by Keebler.
Hence my name, E.L. Fudge_Packer_Boy. I like to play the role of E.L. Fudge, the Keebler elf.
The boys get transfixed with what I say and this is when I make my move.
Email me about your offers.
E.L. Fudge_Packer_Boy
> I have several for sale E.L. Fudge_Packer_Boy.
Email me I will get with you in the ThinkFast thread.
Shhhh!
Would you like one called †Johnny Cum Lately †?
February 11th, 2007 at 1:40 pmHow about one called †Preteen Incest is Best “
You see, my “progressive†friends, the world is a lot more complicated and full of uncertainties and risks than you can possibly imagine.
Comment by KPK — February 11, 2007 @ 1:28 pm
You see, holier-than-thou, patronizing and paranoid ass – we know this. We just aren’t frightened silly by it like those of you on the Right. It’s why we don’t shoot at everything that moves.
February 11th, 2007 at 1:41 pm>Why all the Lincoln comparisons lately, by the way?
Because Obama is in Springfield, IL invoking the memory of Lincoln.
February 11th, 2007 at 1:41 pmCrystal and Fox look and sound alike, but Obama and Lincoln are quite different in many ways. For one difference, Obama has lived a life as a Black man and that is not easy with White, right wing people using their position, power and authority to demean them. Are we going to continue to see these “boat type” people abusing good human beings wanting to serve hamanity?
Yuk!!!
February 11th, 2007 at 1:41 pmAbraham Lincoln was a “divider” not a uniter. He was willing to fight, and carry on an extremely unpopular and bloody war on principle. First, to preserve the union; and then, to forever eradicate slavery. He was against slavery consistently during his life; but he wanted above all to preserve the union. I really can’t see anything linking Mr. Obama and Mr. Lincoln. I have to agree that if we carry back Mr. Obama’s rhetoric to 1863 he would have been in favor of accomodation not victory.
February 11th, 2007 at 1:42 pmYou know, our way of life with all the freedoms we enjoy and perhaps take for granted at times is in danger. It is perhaps in greater danger if we retreat and take a defensive posture. Can’t you understand how this will result in less privacy, less freedom of movement. Do you want to be searched every time you go to a mall. I am a lifelong Democrat; but I cannot join the haters who seem to care more about hurting the President than facing this danger.
Wake up people.
Face it, yo uhave moments when you are blinded by your ideology. That is not a bad thing. We are all subject to it.
Comment by hacker bob —
unbelieveable, did he really post that? He’s in rare form today. Did someone pee in his wheaties?
February 11th, 2007 at 1:43 pmUp next, Kristol proclaims the KKK is not a racist hate-group. Sheeeeesh.
February 11th, 2007 at 1:44 pm“When I said during my presidential bid that I would only bring Christians and Jews into the government, I hit a firestorm. `What do you mean?’ the media challenged me. `You’re not going to bring atheists into the government? How dare you maintain that those who believe in the Judeo Christian values are better qualified to govern America than Hindus and Muslims?’ My simple answer is, `Yes, they are.’”
–from Pat Robertson’s “The New World Order,” page 218.
“The mission of the Christian Coalition is simple,” says Pat Robertson. It is “to mobilize Christians — one precinct at a time, one community at a time — until once again we are the head and not the tail, and at the top rather than the bottom of our political system.” Robertson predicts that “the Christian Coalition will be the most powerful political force in America by the end of this decade.” And, “We have enough votes to run this country…and when the people say, ‘We’ve had enough,’ we’re going to take over!”
–Pat Robertson
http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/7027/quotes.html
February 11th, 2007 at 1:44 pmI am a lifelong Democrat;
Comment by pat — February 11, 2007 @ 1:42 pm
No you aren’t.
February 11th, 2007 at 1:46 pmBUt they really want to make sure you know about all of Bush’s mistakes in case no one told you before. Not that they care about what would happen if we left. Bush made mistakes. See
Bush made mistakes.
Doest matter if the Middle East meltsdown if we leave. Bush made mistakes and he’s a Republican.
Comment by Vince P
No, but you’re almost there. A little more effort, and you might just get it right.
February 11th, 2007 at 1:47 pmNo you aren’t.
Comment by unbelievable
Oh here comes the enforcement.
Can someone tell me what the values of the Progressives are?
I see not a positive thing being held up and defended by any of you nasty losers.
February 11th, 2007 at 1:49 pmunbelieveable, did he really post that? He’s in rare form today.
Funny huh?
Did someone pee in his wheaties?
Comment by Barfly — February 11, 2007 @ 1:43 pm
Yeah – me. robert doesn’t like anyone to think he isn’t a perfect little angel who is at all times honorable and moral, and then gets pissy when you point out his human imperfections.
I like him though. He means well. I think he’d be a progressive if he’d open his eyes : )
February 11th, 2007 at 1:50 pmThe truth is, politics and morality are inseparable. And as morality’s foundation is religion, religion and politics are necessarily related. We need religion as a guide. We need it because we are imperfect.
– Ronald Reagan, at an ecumenical prayer breakfast in Dallas on August 23, 1984, in “Quotable: Where Reagan and Religion Intersect” (Dallas Morning News: June 11, 2004) †â€
God, the source of all knowledge, should never have been expelled from our children’s classrooms.
– Ronald Reagan, address, National Religious Broadcasters, Washington, DC, January, 1984, quoted from Menendez and Doerr, The Great Quotations on Religious Freedom
Well, it’s a theory, it is a scientific theory only, and it has in recent years been challenged in the world of science and is not yet believed in the scientific community to be as infallible as it once was believed. But if it was going to be taught in the schools, then I think that also the biblical theory of creation, which is not a theory, but the biblical story of creation, should also be taught.
– Ronald Reagan, during a 1980 press conference as US presidential candidate, having been asked if he thought the theory of evolution should be taught in the public schools, in Science (1980) 209:1214), quoted from Tim Berra, Evolution and the Myth of Creationism, Chapter 5 †â€
For the first time ever, everything is in place for the Battle of Armageddon and the Second Coming of Christ.
– Ronald Reagan, to James Mills, in 1971, regarding events in Libya, quoted from “A Brief History of the Apocalypse”
We may be the generation that sees Armageddon.
February 11th, 2007 at 1:52 pm– Ronald Reagan, in a 1980 interview with criminal televangelist Jim Bakker, quoted from “A Brief History of the Apocalypse”
pat ‘the lifelong Democrat’ (and by Democrat, he means ‘Freeper’), how about you wake up and stop spouting the tired and false rhetoric that Iraq and its civil war have anything to do with international terrorism. You know what would be the best means to securing Iraq from Al Qaeda, friend? Three words: The Sadr Army. Of course, to the 28%-ers, anyone with brown skin is ‘the Enemy’ and they won’t be ‘defeated’ until the U.S. has been totally bankrupted giving lives and pointless appropriations to Blackwater and Halliburton (who, in turn, donate heftily to their Republican enablers.)
February 11th, 2007 at 1:53 pm“I see not a positive thing being held up and defended by any of you nasty losers.”
That’s because sociopaths like yourself equate ‘positive’ with ‘immediate selfish gain.’
February 11th, 2007 at 1:55 pmHacker Boy: I have yet to meet a Christian who does not primarily use his religion to justify and sanctify his/her prejudices. This is true of the nicest Christians I have met, as well as of the worst ones.
The difference is usually that the nicest ones realize that they are doing it.
Religion, even if it might be used for other purposes, is pretty much only used to divide, to conquer, and to subjugate. It’s there to define what is not-I, and thus, what must be conquered or destroyed.
Christianity contains in itself the idea that all must one day conform; that all must become Christian or die. That that day is perceived to be in 5 years or in 500 does make a difference; but the essence is there. Obviously, Christianity is not alone in this ambition of world-domination; that is precisely what it has most in common with Islam.
So forgive me if I speak against an ideology which seeks to destroy or enslave me. Because if I don’t speak out against oppression, I forfeit my right to be human.
If it feels uncomfortable to you that your religion is being used for these purposes, and you actively attempt to change it for the better, then may the force be with you, young padawan. BUT if you seek to defend the indefensible, to claim that because there are Christians who, instead of actively discriminating against others, wait for others to do it for them, then I’m sorry, I cannot accept that.
Because that is precisely a large number of Christians do: they cheer oppression, and hope that others will do the dirty work for them. They wouldn’t kill an A-rab themselves, but they are quite happy when their government does it for them. They wouldn’t call for the expulsion of all atheists from government positions themselves, but they would willingly cry out Hallellujah at a preacher who did.
That’s the ugly truth; it’s up to you, if you feel that people like Pat Robertson and James Dobson are hurting your religion, to scream out against them.
But please, again, forgive me if I speak against an ideology which seeks to destroy or enslave me.
February 11th, 2007 at 1:56 pmKristol = emetic. This glob of slime is as sincere as a five-dollar hooker. Who lets this scum inside the door, anyway?
February 11th, 2007 at 1:57 pmHehe.. you’re advocating that the Shiite Mahdi Cultist Sadr be looked to as a solution against the Sunni Jihadi group?
Oh, I think it’s you who dont care about dark people ,freaking hypocrite.
You dont know nor care about the consequences.
February 11th, 2007 at 1:57 pmDenis: dont ever try that again. it’s almost funny how off the wall you are.
February 11th, 2007 at 1:59 pm230: Vince. Pray you, please tell me what the “values” of conservatives are, beyond the greed for blood and gold?
Progressives tend to believe that what is best is what causes the least suffering. It may not be simple black and white, “Dead or alive” talk, so you may not be wired to understand it. But that doesn’t mean that we don’t have any positive values.
February 11th, 2007 at 1:59 pmLooks like the GOP is really threatened by him. Their tactics are so obvious!
I just hope the big money, entrenched Democrats don’t try to squash him as Kerry and others did to Howard Dean. I’m still pissed at how they gave the GOP so much ammunition to use when they were doing their pathetic infighting.
That’s my opinion of it anyway.
February 11th, 2007 at 1:59 pmOh here comes the enforcement.
I’ve been here since the beginning of the post…
You know, you’ve ignored my requests for proof to your wild opinions?
Can someone tell me what the values of the Progressives are?
We aren’t a blind ideology like the Republican Party. We each, individually have our own based on our personal lives, experiences and beliefs.
However, most of us are Humanitarians. And even those of us who are not religius agree to most of what Jesus taught – peace, love, and understanding.
I see not a positive thing being held up and defended by any of you nasty losers.
Comment by Vince P — February 11, 2007 @ 1:49 pm
You think Jesus is a nasty loser? Really…
P.S. We won the election in November, by the way. Technically, it makes us the winners here…
February 11th, 2007 at 1:59 pm“I see not a positive thing being held up and defended by any of you nasty losers.â€
That’s because sociopaths like yourself equate ‘positive’ with ‘immediate selfish gain.’
Comment by Klaus — February 11, 2007 @ 1:55 pm
Thanks for the nasty attack, but how about answering the question, if you can.
February 11th, 2007 at 2:00 pm238: Vince: What the h**l are you talking about. And I wonder what you think is “off the wall” about what I’m saying.
You should really back up your claims.
February 11th, 2007 at 2:02 pm“Oh, I think it’s you who dont care about dark people ,freaking hypocrite.”
Haha, spinning idiot, can’t look outside the frame of his narrowminded rhetoric. On the one hand, you’re worried about Al Qaeda taking over Iraq, but when that’s shown to be an implausible output, suddenly Repugnants become humanitarian peacekeepers concerned about the people of Iraq. Of course, you freaks were the same ones raising your Miller Lites to ‘Shock & Awe’. What a joke.
February 11th, 2007 at 2:03 pm“Thanks for the nasty attack, but how about answering the question, if you can.”
I don’t entertain intellectual dishonesty, I just flame the idiots who think Hannity & Colmes is a modern day School of Athens. Suck it up, twerp.
February 11th, 2007 at 2:04 pmThey put the Negroes in the schools, and now they’ve driven God out.
– George Andrews, in response to the US Supreme Court’s verdict in Engle v. Vitale (barring school-sponsored prayer), quoted from Robert E Nordlander, “Madalyn Murray O’Hair: The Making of a Modern Myth” (Freethought Today, November, 1988)
Any citizen who’s offended … can leave the service.
– John Ashcroft, baiting atheists, separationists, and non-Evangelicals in a speech given at a January 13 political function in Denver, Colorado, on supporting faith-based initiatives, during which Ashcroft quoted the Bible and said fear and bigotry lead to discrimination against faith-based charities in the past, quoted from the Denver Post (January 14, 2003) †â€
If we have to give up either religion or education, we should give up education.
– William Jennings Bryan, contribution to The Commoner (January, 1923), quoted from George Seldes, ed., The Great Thoughts (1985)
robert – I could go on, as there are many, many more like this – but I think I have made my point.
February 11th, 2007 at 2:05 pmTennessee: Unlawful to Teach Science till 1967
“It shall be unlawful for any teacher in any of the universities, normals, and all other public schools of the state which are supported in whole or in part by public funds of the state, to teach any theory that denies the story of the divine creation of man as taught in the Bible, and to teach instead that man has descended from a lower state of animals.”
February 11th, 2007 at 2:05 pm– Statute of the State of Tennessee, 1925 (not repealed until 1967), quoted from David Milsted, The Cassell Dictionary of Regrettable Quotations (1999)
Denis: I would make an effort to comment on your pontification if i thought there was objectivity in here but there isn’t. So no matter what I say it wont matter.
February 11th, 2007 at 2:06 pmActually, you do – and I’ve told you that I think so before.
Just because you think (key word) so does not make it so. A concept you fail to accept. Let me guess, before Architecture and teaching, you were a shrink.
The fact is post #11.
Ok, where specifically did I tear someone down?
You can’t apply future possibilities to present situations.
Read history, look at current events. It happens all around us. Look at Iraq where an oppressed MAJORITY want to eliminate the formerly oppressive MINORITY.
And considering we’re still oppressing Native Americans and blacks, I find it hard to believe that religious majorities will stop oppressing people in our life time.
Yet we have black is political office, blacks in CEO positions…Again, you generalize.
You’ve got to be kidding me…
Let’s start with the fact that I won a government claim for unemployment against a former employer for religious discrimination… And continue with the fact that there are ZERO Congress Representatives that are Atheists in a country where 15% of the country admits to not being religious…
How many Atheists run for public office? If they do not get the votes to get elected, should they just be appointed in order to have “fair-share†representation?
First of all – you’re building a very weak strawman.
The Constitution assures you have the right to be as much of a religious nut as you’d like. It was Jesus who told you that you should do it in private…
Yet Jesus would preach in public.
Face it, yo uhave moments when you are blinded by your ideology. That is not a bad thing. We are all subject to it.
Comment by hacker bob — February 11, 2007 @ 1:12 pm
I won’t admit something that isn’t true. And you can stop accusing me of it to dodge the fact that your religion is oppressive.
There are individuals in the religion that are oppressive, no the religion itself.
As I keep reminding you, you’ve seen me argue with liberals.
Yes I have.
February 11th, 2007 at 2:07 pmI’ve yet to see you willfully agree with them on anything of substance. You only agree on minor points, and only when you find yourself painted into a corner.
Comment by unbelievable — February 11, 2007 @ 1:32 pm
If I willfully agreed with them on everything, I would be a democrat. There are some major issues I do agree with, but I do not agree with everything.
Yeah – me. robert doesn’t like anyone to think he isn’t a perfect little angel who is at all times honorable and moral, and then gets pissy when you point out his human imperfections.
I like him though. He means well. I think he’d be a progressive if he’d open his eyes : )
Comment by unbelievable
Hey, I know I am far from being a perfect little angel. I do not concider myself to be anyones moral compass, and I am well aware of my human imperfections.
If I had the answers to all the questions, would I be here?
February 11th, 2007 at 2:11 pmWe just attacked Pakistan.. you guys are going to freak. lol
February 11th, 2007 at 2:11 pmBut please, again, forgive me if I speak against an ideology which seeks to destroy or enslave me.
Comment by Denis Robert — February 11, 2007 @ 1:56 pm
One of my favorite quotes:
“I am treated as evil by those who feel persecuted because they are not allowed to force me to believe as they do.”
—unknown
February 11th, 2007 at 2:12 pm248: Vince, I call Bulls**t. You are willing to say I’m “off the wall” but can’t even point to a single thing I wrote which is, as you say, “off the wall”. So either make you point, or STFU, ok. I, at least, have signed my real, whole name.
This whole time here, and you haven’t been able to make a single valid point about anything. Pretty much, your entire production has been
“You are a bunch a losers, assh**es”
You may have varied the words here and there, but that’s what it comes down to.
You vomit winger talking points as if that’s what you eat for breakfast; but facts?? What the hell is that?
So make your claim, support it, or STFU.
As for Christianity wanting to eliminate all other religions, it’s in the Fing Bible, you idiot. Or have you not read it. Just read Revelation again.
February 11th, 2007 at 2:14 pmDenis: Call bs all you want. Blame your associates for making discourse impossible.
February 11th, 2007 at 2:18 pmJust because you think (key word) so does not make it so. A concept you fail to accept.
No robert, I have pointed it out, but you are refusing to accept it because you cannot handle personal criticism.
Let me guess, before Architecture and teaching, you were a shrink.
Don’t get nasty…
Ok, where specifically did I tear someone down?
I’ve told you.
Read history, look at current events. It happens all around us. Look at Iraq where an oppressed MAJORITY want to eliminate the formerly oppressive MINORITY.
History is frequently an opinion. Now I get it…
It doesn’t prove the future robert. That’s just silly.
Yet we have black is political office, blacks in CEO positions…Again, you generalize.
Because I can’t specify every name of every black person that is oppressed.
Just because yu can point to a few that aren’t, doesn’t negate the fact that the majority still are…
How many Atheists run for public office? If they do not get the votes to get elected, should they just be appointed in order to have “fair-share†representation?
Over the years – in the open? A few.
That is the point of representation robert… Come on, that’s just common sense.
Yet Jesus would preach in public.
Even you see the hypocrisy in your own religion.
If I willfully agreed with them on everything, I would be a democrat. There are some major issues I do agree with, but I do not agree with everything.
Comment by hacker bob — February 11, 2007 @ 2:07 pm
Which major issues?
You know I think you’re a progressive who is still afraid to accept it.
February 11th, 2007 at 2:21 pmInteresting.
According to the very well-done book “Lincolm at Cooper Union” (the speech which made him a national figure and propelled him toward the presidency) the “House Divided” speech got him in real trouble…called a warmonger, a divider, etc. Part of the Cooper Union speech was a lawyerlike attempt to rectify some of the damage.
T
February 11th, 2007 at 2:22 pmIf I had the answers to all the questions, would I be here?
Comment by hacker bob — February 11, 2007 @ 2:11 pm
That’s the main reason conservatives show up here. To tell us what we should think.
I’ve admitted that you are an exception many times before. Only because I think that when you think for yourself, you see that reality has a liberal bias :)
February 11th, 2007 at 2:23 pmWhy don`t you people STFU and let the military handle MILITARY operations?
Your second guessing attitude in general is telling. If we ever faced a massive terrorist attack in the US what would you do?
Go on TP and birch all about it I suppose.
February 11th, 2007 at 2:25 pmThank God for strong leaders who are not swayed by polls and public ” opinion “
Hacker Bob:
As of now, you don’t get to define what Christianity is. Because Christians have allowed the likes of Robertson, LaHaye and Dobson to speak unimpeded and unchallenged, they have claimed and earned the right to define what Christianity is.
I don’t like it, and I don’t get the feeling that you like it either. But that’s the simple reality. It’s just like unfortunately, the Wahhabists in Saudi Arabia have been allowed to define Sunni Islam and Ayatollah Khamenei is defining Shia Islam right now.
There is something you can do. You can reclaim the right to define your own religion. First step would be to excise Revelation from the Bible, but that’s just me.
But whatever you do, if you disagree with the Dominionists, YOU MAKE YOUR VOICE HEARD.
Otherwise, you can’t come here and complain about unbelievable or myself “bashing” Christianity. If Christianity were really tolerant of others, really interested in the good of mankind as a whole, I for one would have no problem with it.
But right now, that’s not what it is.
The ball is in the court of Liberal Christians to make their voices heard. And that is why I, even though I am an avowed Atheist, currently support Obama. Because I truly want a liberal Christian to re-define Christianity. Because I need it to be the case.
February 11th, 2007 at 2:25 pmBlame your associates for making discourse impossible.
Comment by Vince P — February 11, 2007 @ 2:18 pm
The only one who controls you is you…
If you cannot make discourse, it is your own fault.
February 11th, 2007 at 2:25 pmAnother second gen Trotskyite moaning because his idealist lunatic cult brothers are seeing their ‘Revolution’ meet the same fate that their Soviet kin met when they goose-stepped into Afghanistan. The shock of 9/11 is fading, the Militant Neo-Hegelians have been exposed as delusional loonies, and the time for a principled foreign policy realism has come. The presence of American troops has and will have no impact on the situation in Iraq, other than a radicalizing symbol that further discredits the handful of Iraqi moderates that have not been kidnapped and murdered already. The Bush Trotskyites have wrecked two countries, we cannot stop Iraq’s violent and now inevitable movement towards post-colonial equilibrium, but we can save America’s youth from more IEDs and more billions of dollars of debt (which Bush and the Trotskyite baby-boomers are too selfish to pay, despite their transparent masks of ‘principle’ and ‘conviction’).
February 11th, 2007 at 2:26 pmHi, Billy Kristol has been a GOP OPERATIVE for decades. Note well that it only took hours for the Republican OPPOSITION RESEARCH slime machine to zero in on Senator Obama: Australian P.M. Howard/FOX-Rupert “I Was once an Australian Citizen” Murdock’s FOX “NEWs” / GOP-Propaganda “Swiftboaters” lead by the ever- smiling Bill Kristol.
I have watched Kristol for decades since he appeared as Secretary of Education, “Big Bill “Moral Outrage” Bennett’s Chief of Staff, working in tandem to destroy the American Public School System via “School Choice.” In fact when I first ran into Kristol[1985], Bill Kristol hadn’t yet perfected that famous grin/smile/grimace of his.
Bill Kristol has always been one of the NEO-CON’s biggest “BIG THINKER”–from PNAC in the 1990s-to the Iraq War of 2003-2007-to the current “Surge”- to the impending Iranian War & toward a future series of expeditions to create a NEW AMERICAN OIL EMPIRE in Western/Central Asia.
We must take Kristol’ prediction seriously : “WE’RE ELECTING A WAR PRESIDENT IN 2008″[my caps] For Christ’s sake Bush’s Preventive War
of choice, has already DESTABLIZED the ENTIRE MIDDLE EAST. Is Kristol now again advocating New Wars that might also include Armageddon-WW III?[Rev. 16:16]
Kristol/Fox/GOP Slime machine & Republican OPPOSITION RESEARCHERS , have realized like later days “Catos”[234-149 B. C.] that Senator Barack Hussein Obama “MUST BE DESTROYED” quickly, by any of their well-known”dirty tricks”/smears/fabrications. Why? Because they correctly realize that Senator Obama has the best chance of becoming President in 2008–thereby destroying the Republican Ascendancy going back to Reagan–if not Nixon.
February 11th, 2007 at 2:28 pmTherefore, the “Vital Center” must not let ANY smears/lies go unchallenged as we did in 2000/2004. For if we fail –2007-2008- then I believe, along with Chris Hedges’ “American Fascists” that “It Can Happen Here: A Fascist Christian America.” Very worried in Stuart, Florida, George E. Lowe
Christian never commands beleivers to kill or be violent with unbelievers. Any violence in Revelation is done by Satan (and his forces), or God himself.
Islam commands Muslims to do violence against Non Muslims and the End cant come until they wipe out the Jews.
Anyone who says those things are similiar to each other is retarded.
February 11th, 2007 at 2:30 pmAnd that is why I, even though I am an avowed Atheist, currently support Obama. Because I truly want a liberal Christian to re-define Christianity. Because I need it to be the case.
Comment by Denis Robert — February 11, 2007 @ 2:25 pm
Again – well said. I agree.
Tried to make this same point on a previous thread, but got called names. I’m pretty sure that most people who call themselves Christian are simply doing it to belong to the majority. Few of them understand what their religion is truly all about.
February 11th, 2007 at 2:33 pmHiram: I’m sorry, but I have to use this:
“Thank God for strong leaders who are not swayed by polls and public opinion”
Wasn’t that exactly what Hitler was?
A leader which is not swayed by polls and public opinion is by definition an autocrat, a dictator. Iraq stopped being a military operation the day Saddam’s regime failed.
The only completely military solution to a situation is the extermination of the enemy. Otherwise, the solution MUST have a political component.
And that’s the problem in Iraq today: there’s no political or diplomatic effort, because the current situation is based on a lie: That Al-Maliki is interested in a unified, stable Iraq. Al-Maliki is and has always been an Iranian agent. So he has NO interest in seeing a stable unified Iraq: He wants to exclude the Sunni from any position of power.
That cannot, in any way, lead to a stable Iraq.
Unless, you want to put a “strong leader who is not swayed by polls or public opinion” back in charge of Iraq.
February 11th, 2007 at 2:33 pmChristian never commands beleivers to kill or be violent with unbelievers. Any violence in Revelation is done by Satan (and his forces), or God himself.
Ahem…
They entered into a covenant to seek the Lord, the God of their fathers, with all their heart and soul; and everyone who would not seek the Lord, the God of Israel, was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.
–2 Chronicles 15:12-13 NAB
Islam commands Muslims to do violence against Non Muslims and the End cant come until they wipe out the Jews.
You know this because?
Anyone who says those things are similiar to each other is retarded.
Comment by Vince P — February 11, 2007 @ 2:30 pm
You keep crying that you’re a victim here who is insulted. I’ve never seen you post anything without insulting others…
What is wrong with you?
February 11th, 2007 at 2:37 pm1) If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst.
–Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB
February 11th, 2007 at 2:38 pmAccording to the Bible, Infidels and Gays Should Die… How’s that work for you Vince?
So God let them go ahead and do whatever shameful things their hearts desired. As a result, they did vile and degrading things with each other’s bodies. Instead of believing what they knew was the truth about God, they deliberately chose to believe lies. So they worshiped the things God made but not the Creator himself, who is to be praised forever. Amen.
That is why God abandoned them to their shameful desires. Even the women turned against the natural way to have sex and instead indulged in sex with each other. And the men, instead of having normal sexual relationships with women, burned with lust for each other. Men did shameful things with other men and, as a result, suffered within themselves the penalty they so richly deserved.
When they refused to acknowledge God, he abandoned them to their evil minds and let them do things that should never be done. Their lives became full of every kind of wickedness, sin, greed, hate, envy, murder, fighting, deception, malicious behavior, and gossip. They are backstabbers, haters of God, insolent, proud, and boastful. They are forever inventing new ways of sinning and are disobedient to their parents. They refuse to understand, break their promises, and are heartless and unforgiving. They are fully aware of God’s death penalty for those who do these things, yet they go right ahead and do them anyway. And, worse yet, they encourage others to do them, too.
–Romans 1:24-32 NLT
February 11th, 2007 at 2:39 pmTo be fair, Christianity, as the philosophy of Jesus of Nazareth, should not be held to the Old Testament, which was little more than a vile nationalist screed for the Jews.
February 11th, 2007 at 2:41 pmWhy do you people keep using 2 Chronicles? this is at least the 4th time this has been brought up
2 Chronicles 15:3 is not anything more than relating what had happened under the administration of a king during a civl war in Israel between the death of Solomon and the Babylonian Captivity. Not one person thinks it’s a command, nor have they ever thought it.
Here is the full passage. It’s clear that it is a narrative, not a religious command or teaching
15:9 He assembled all Judah and Benjamin, as well as the settlers from Ephraim, Manasseh, and Simeon who had come to live with them. Many people from Israel had come there to live when they saw that the Lord his God was with him. They assembled in Jerusalem in the third month of the fifteenth year of Asa’s reign. At that time they sacrificed to the Lord some of the plunder they had brought back, including 700 head of cattle and 7,000 sheep. They solemnly agreed to seek the Lord God of their ancestors with their whole heart and being. Anyone who would not seek the Lord God of Israel would be executed, whether they were young or old, male or female. They swore their allegiance to the Lord, shouting their approval loudly and sounding trumpets and horns. All Judah was happy about the oath, because they made the vow with their whole heart. They willingly sought the Lord and he responded to them. He made them secure on every side
Now in the Islamic Koran:
In this video there are 500+ verses which take over 9 minutes to show (2 seconds per verse) in the Koran are quite clear… they are not story, they are proscriptive commands for the Muslim to execute.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tNw87A1f3Y
February 11th, 2007 at 2:43 pmThe Council of Jerusalem as recorded in the NT book Acts has said that the OT Law of Moses does not apply to Gentiles or Christians.
15:5 But some from the religious party of the Pharisees14 who had believed stood up and said, “It is necessary15 to circumcise the Gentiles16 and to order them to observe17 the law of Moses.â€
15:6 Both the apostles and the elders met together to deliberate18 about this matter. 15:7 After there had been much debate,19 Peter stood up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that some time ago20 God chose21 me to preach to the Gentiles so they would hear the message22 of the gospel23 and believe.24 15:8 And God, who knows the heart,25 has testified26 to them by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us,27 15:9 and he made no distinction28 between them and us, cleansing29 their hearts by faith. 15:10 So now why are you putting God to the test30 by placing on the neck of the disciples a yoke31 that neither our ancestors32 nor we have been able to bear? 15:11 On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through33 the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they are.â€34
February 11th, 2007 at 2:45 pm271: So there’s no problem with being Gay, then? Or a witch?
February 11th, 2007 at 2:49 pmWhat an incredible leap of logic. To compare the two and to come to that conclusion would require that the two situations were exactly the same. For Kristol to make that statement PROVES that he is insane.
February 11th, 2007 at 2:49 pmTo be fair, Christianity, as the philosophy of Jesus of Nazareth, should not be held to the Old Testament, which was little more than a vile nationalist screed for the Jews.
Comment by Pythagoras — February 11, 2007 @ 2:41 pm
As long as it is in the Bible, the book of Christians, it is valid. Especially when it is used by Christians for the purposes of teaching ‘Intelligent Design’, denying gay rights, defining marriage, denying equal rights for woman, and so on.
Besides, Jesus was a Jew.
February 11th, 2007 at 2:49 pm270:
Let’s see:
Deuteronomy (the entire thing)
Joshua
Need I say more, I don’t even have to point to any verse; just open it at random and you’ll find abominations of the worst order. Enough for me to refuse to allow my kids to read the book until they are old enough to understand it.
February 11th, 2007 at 2:52 pmOh… I thought he meant Obama was going to free the white people. Well, maybe he will.
February 11th, 2007 at 2:53 pmNot one person thinks it’s a command, nor have they ever thought it.
Not one person. You speak for every Christian ever?
So explain the Crusades, the Inquisition, Joan of Arc, the Salem Witch Trials, etc.
Really, if you don’t like the violence in your religious book, you should edit it. For aslong as it is there, it’s fair game.
Here is the full passage. It’s clear that it is a narrative, not a religious command or teaching
Comment by Vince P — February 11, 2007 @ 2:43 pm
I’ve never heard a preacher or a priest read a passge in context prior to a sermon or homily.
Your context changes nothing anyway. It’s still violent and divisive.
February 11th, 2007 at 2:53 pmWill Rogers would have had a field day with this Kristol character. Ahhh… but those were the days. Obama is a breath of air. He knows that like Kennedy and Lincoln, he risks his life in bringing positive changes to the office of the President. But here is a man who is willing to go the distance anyway. I reserve my final decision on voting for him, because like someone earlier said, it’s too early to decide. If he continues his campaign on the trails it is going now, he will have my vote. As I have always contended, if this country is going to change, it will be the young people who will do it.
February 11th, 2007 at 2:53 pm>Besides, Jesus was a Jew.
He still is
February 11th, 2007 at 2:54 pm274:
It’s so funny how Christians are able to repudiate the entire Old Testament when an uncomfortable passage is put in front of them, but they are at the same time utterly convinced that the entire thing is the work of God Himself.
It’s called selective reading; it’s normal, and because the book contains so many obvious contradictions, it’s inevitable. But that just goes to show that they use the book to justify their own sense of what is ethical, not to define it.
“And Man made God in His Own Image”.
February 11th, 2007 at 2:55 pmGotta run…
February 11th, 2007 at 2:56 pmThis is what led to the European response called the First Crusade:
…the whole Gaza region up to Cesarea was sacked and devastated in the campaign of 634. Four thousand Jewish, Christian, and Samaritan peasants who defended their land were massacred. The villages of the Negev were pillaged…Towns such as Jerusalem, Gaza, Jaffa, Cesarea, Nablus, and Beth Shean were isolated and closed their gates. In his sermon on Christmas day 634, the patriarch of Jerusalem, Sophronius, lamented…that the Christians were being forcibly kept in Jerusalem: ‘…chained and nailed by fear of the Saracens,’ whose ‘savage, barbarous and bloody sword’ kept them locked up in the town…Sophronius, in his sermon on the Day of the Epiphany 636, bewailed the destruction of the churches and monasteries, the sacked towns, the fields laid waste, the villages burned down by the nomads who were overrunning the country. In a letter the same year to Sergius, the patriarch of Constantinople, he mentions the ravages wrought by the Arabs. Thousands of people perished in 639, victims of the famine and plague that resulted from these destructions. 40
According to [the Muslim chronicler] Baladhuri (d. 892 C.E.), 40,000 Jews lived in Caesarea alone at the Arab conquest, after which all trace of them is lost… 41
Muslim Turcoman rule of Palestine for the nearly three decades just prior to the Crusades (1071-1099 C.E.) was characterized by such unrelenting warfare and devastation, that an imminent “End of Days†atmosphere was engendered. 63 For example, Gil describes one of Atsiz b. Awaq’s jihad campaigns in Syro-Palestine at around 1077 C.E.:
Then Atsiz advanced on Jerusalem from Damascus, placed the city under siege, and promised its inhabitants the aman; on this basis, the inhabitants opened the gates of the city to him. Atsiz prevailed over Jerusalem, completely ignoring his promise of aman, and went on a rampage. He slaughtered 3,000 people there…He also conducted campaigns of annihilation against Ramla, until all its people had fled, and against Gaza, where he murdered the entire population. He likewise massacred people in al-’Arish and elsewhere and wrought endless havoc in Damascus, where only 3,000 of the original 500,000 inhabitants had remained, due to starvation and scarcity. Jaffa, too, was attacked, and its governor…fled from the town to Tyre, together with all the city’s inhabitants, while the walls of Jaffa were destroyed on Atsiz’ orders. 64
A contemporary Russian chronicle cited by Gil indicates that the Turcomans, “…destroyed and desolated the cities and the villages from Antioch to Jerusalem. They murdered, took captive, pillaged, set on fire; they destroyed churches and monasteriesâ€.65
Gil notes that these observations are confirmed by Geniza documents, describing how, “…the Turcoman occupation denoted terrible calamities, such as the taking captive of the people of Ramla, the cutting off of roads, the obduracy of the commanders, the aura of anxiety and panic, and so on.†66 He continues, “We do not know what Atsiz’ attitude was to the Jewish population in 1078, during the cruel suppression of the uprisings and the destruction of towns, but the fact that from this date onwards, we barely find letters from Palestine (apart from Ascalon and Caesarea) in the Geniza documents, speaks for itself.â€
February 11th, 2007 at 2:56 pmConsider: If Obama were to be “for” slavery, he would pick up the 29% still pro-Bush.
February 11th, 2007 at 3:02 pmOK, The Arabs slaughtered People in 1000 years ago. Then Christians slaughtered the Arabs. Then the Arabs slaughtered the Christians right back. The it all happened again.
Simple Fact: 1000 years ago, both Christians and Muslims were quite happy to use their holy texts to justify their atrocities.
Doesn’t make the Christians better than the Arabs in this, even though that’s what you’re claiming. The other simple fact is that there was a hell of a lot of dough to be made by conquering Jerusalem, and THAT’s why the Pope called the First Crusade. The slaughter of the Jews was just a pretext, considering that the Pope had no love for Jews.
February 11th, 2007 at 3:06 pmOh… I thought he meant Obama was going to free the white people. Well, maybe he will.
Comment by barrelhse — February 11, 2007 @ 2:53 pm
given a chance, i think he can! … we should hope so anyway… heh…
February 11th, 2007 at 3:08 pmKristol has the nerve to show his face – he was one the the architects of this disaster in Iraq – he’s shit-grinning with a new pair of expensive, paid-for-by-war-profiteering, veneers, because he’s a buttboy for AIPAC and AEI.
February 11th, 2007 at 3:09 pmKristol told a Seattle audience that he was “too young” to have fought in Vietnam. He was born December, 1952, by his own admission to my questioning. Do the math.
Kristol has 3 military-age children. Not a single one has volunteered for Iraq, so I suppose they want to appease the terrorists as well. Kristol will tell you his youngest is in ROTC at Harvard. Want to take bets as to whether he winds up deploying to combat in Iraq?
February 11th, 2007 at 3:09 pmOn his best days, Bill Kristol is a worthless, useless, smarmy scumbag. He would give that big toothy smile as he pushed you in front of a train and then blamed the guy next to him.
February 11th, 2007 at 3:15 pmIslam is the only major religion in the world that has in its texts teh commands for its believers to kill everyone else.
February 11th, 2007 at 3:19 pmJohn Quincy Adams wrote:
In the seventh century of the Christian era, a wandering Arab of the lineage of Hagar [i.e., Muhammad], the Egyptian, combining the powers of transcendent genius, with the preternatural energy of a fanatic, and the fraudulent spirit of an impostor, proclaimed himself as a messenger from Heaven, and spread desolation and delusion over an extensive portion of the earth. Adopting from the sublime conception of the Mosaic law, the doctrine of one omnipotent God; he connected indissolubly with it, the audacious falsehood, that he was himself his prophet and apostle. Adopting from the new Revelation of Jesus, the faith and hope of immortal life, and of future retribution, he humbled it to the dust by adapting all the rewards and sanctions of his religion to the gratification of the sexual passion. He poisoned the sources of human felicity at the fountain, by degrading the condition of the female sex, and the allowance of polygamy; and he declared undistinguishing and exterminating war, as a part of his religion, against all the rest of mankind. THE ESSENCE OF HIS DOCTRINE WAS VIOLENCE AND LUST: TO EXALT THE BRUTAL OVER THE SPIRITUAL PART OF HUMAN NATURE (Adams’s capital letters)… Between these two religions, thus contrasted in their characters, a war of twelve hundred years has already raged. The war is yet flagrant… While the merciless and dissolute dogmas of the false prophet shall furnish motives to human action, there can never be peace upon earth, and goodwill towards men.”
Lord Tebbit wrote:
“The Muslim religion is so unreformed since it was created that nowhere in the Muslim world has there been any real advance in science, or art or literature, or technology in the last 500 years”
Vernon Richards wrote:
“The true Islamic concept of peace goes something like this: “Peace comes through submission to Muhammad and his concept of Allah” (i.e. Islam). As such the Islamic concept of peace, meaning making the whole world Muslim, is actually a mandate for war. It was inevitable and unavoidable that the conflict would eventually reach our borders, and so it has.”
Andre Servier, 1922 wrote:
“Islam was not a torch, as has been claimed, but an extinguisher. Conceived in a barbarous brain for the use of a barbarous people, it was – and it remains – incapable of adapting itself to civilization. Wherever it has dominated, it has broken the impulse towards progress and checked the evolution of society.â€
Theodore Roosevelt wrote:
“The Greeks who triumphed at Marathon and Salamis did a work without which the world would have been deprived of the social value of Plato and Aristotle, of Aeschylus, Herodotus, and Thucydides. The civilization of Europe, America, and Australia exists today at all only because of the victories of civilized man over the enemies of civilization, because the victories stretching through the centuries from the days of Miltiades and Themistocles to those of Charles Martel in the eighth century and those of John Sobieski in the seventeenth century.â€
“During the thousand years that included the careers of the Frankish soldier and the Polish king, the Christians of Asia and Africa proved unable to wage successful war with the Moslem conquerors; and in consequence Christianity practically vanished from the two continents; and today nobody can find in them any “social values” whatever, in the sense in which we use the words, so far as the sphere of Mohammedan influence. There are such “social values” today in Europe, America, and Australia only because during those thousand years the Christians of Europe possessed the warlike power to do what the Christians of Asia and Africa had failed to do – that is, to beat back the Moslem invader.â€
February 11th, 2007 at 3:20 pmDavid Selbourne – The Losing Battle with Islam:
“Of course, there are distinguished precedents even for the bleakest and coarsest of these judgements. To Montesquieu in 1748, Islam’s ‘destructive spirit’ spoke ‘only by the sword’; to Schopenhauer in 1819, the Koran was a ‘wretched book’ in which he had ‘not been able to discover one single idea of value’; to De Tocqueville in 1843, Islam was ‘deadly’, ‘to be feared’ and a ‘form of decadence’”. –
Winston Churchill, wrote in 1899:
“The religion of Islam above all others was founded upon the sword … Moreover it provides incentives to slaughter, and in three continents has produced fighting breeds of men – filled with a wild and merciless fanaticismâ€.
John Quincy Adams who wrote in 1829:
“The precept of the Koran is, perpetual war against all who deny, that Mahomet is the prophet of God. The vanquished may purchase their lives, by the payment of tribute; the victorious may be appeased by a false and delusive promise of peace; and the faithful follower of the prophet, may submit to the imperious necessities of defeat: but the command to propagate the Moslem creed by the sword is always obligatory, when it can be made effective. The commands of the prophet may be performed alike, by fraud, or by force”.
John Wesley (1703-91) who wrote,
“Ever since the religion of Islam appeared in the world, the espousers of it…have been as wolves and tigers to all other nations, rending and tearing all that fell into their merciless paws, and grinding them with their iron teeth; that numberless cities are raised from the foundation, and only their name remaining; that many countries, which were once as the garden of God, are now a desolate wilderness; and that so many once numerous and powerful nations are vanished from the earth! Such was, and is at this day, the rage, the fury, the revenge, of these destroyers of human kind”.
Hilaire Belloc who wrote in 1938:
“Will not perhaps the temporal power of Islam return and with it the menace of an armed Mohammedan world, which will shake off the domination of Europeans — still nominally Christian — and reappear as the prime enemy of our civilization? The future always comes as a surprise, but political wisdom consists in attempting at least some partial judgment of what that surprise may be. And for my part I cannot but believe that a main unexpected thing of the future is the return of Islam”.
February 11th, 2007 at 3:23 pmBishop Fulton J Sheen who wrote in 1950:
“Today (1950), the hatred of the Moslem countries against the West is becoming hatred against Christianity itself. Although the statesmen have not yet taken it into account, there is still grave danger that the temporal power of Islam may return and, with it, the menace that it may shake off a West which has ceased to be Christian, and affirm itself as a great anti-Christian world Power”.
Patriarch Cyrus of Alexandria, while negotiating the surrender of Alexandria to the Muslims, 640 AD:
“I am afraid that God has sent these men to lay waste the world”.
Gregory Palamus of Thessalonica, 1354:
“For these impious people, hated by God and infamous, boast of having got the better of the Romans by their love of God…they live by the bow, the sword and debauchery, finding pleasure in taking slaves, devoting themselves to murder, pillage, spoil…and not only do they commit these crimes, but even — what an aberration — they believe that God approves of them. This is what I think of them, now that I know precisely about their way of life.”.
William Eaton, US Consul to Tunis, wrote in 1799:
“Considered as a nation, they are deplorably wretched, because they have no property in the soil to inspire an ambition to cultivate it. They are abject slaves to the despotism of their government, and they are humiliated by tyranny, the worst of all tyrannies, the despotism of priestcraft. They live in more solemn fear of the frowns of a bigot who has been dead and rotten above a thousand years, than of the living despot whose frown would cost them their lives…The ignorance, superstitious tradition and civil and religious tyranny, which depress the human mind here, exclude improvement of every kind…”
And how about this quote from Ayatollah Khomeini from 1942:
“Islam makes it incumbent on all adult males, provided they are not disabled and incapacitated, to prepare themselves for the conquest of [other] countries so that the writ of Islam is obeyed in every country in the world. But those who study Islamic Holy War will understand why Islam wants to conquer the whole world…. Those who know nothing of Islam pretend that Islam counsels against war. Those [who say this] are witless. Islam says Kill all the unbelievers just as they would kill you all! Does this mean that Muslims should sit back until they are devoured by [the unbelievers] Islam says Kill them [the non-Muslims], put them to the sword and scatter [their armies]. Does this mean sitting back until [non-Muslims] overcome us Islam says Kill in the service of Allah those who may want to kill you! Does this mean that we should surrender to the enemy Islam says Whatever good there is exists thanks to the sword and in the shadow of the sword! People cannot be made obedient except with the sword! The sword is the key to Paradise, which can be opened only for Holy Warriors! There are hundreds of other [Koranic] verses and Hadiths [sayings of the Prophet] urging Muslims to value war and to fight. Does all that mean that Islam is a religion that prevents men from waging war I spit upon those foolish souls who make such a claim.†– Ayatollah Khomeini
In defense of the UK, Winston Churchill 1941:
You cannot tell from appearances how things will go. Sometimes imagination makes things out far worse than they are; yet without imagination not much can be done. Those people who are imaginative see many more dangers than perhaps exist; certainly many more than will happen; but then they must also pray to be given that extra courage to carry this far-reaching imagination. But for everyone, surely, what we have gone through in this period – I am addressing myself to the School – surely from this period of ten months this is the lesson: never give in, never give in, never, never, never, never-in nothing, great or small, large or petty – never give in except to convictions of honour and good sense. Never yield to force; never yield to the apparently overwhelming might of the enemy. We stood all alone a year ago, and to many countries it seemed that our account was closed, we were finished. All this tradition of ours, our songs, our School history, this part of the history of this country, were gone and finished and liquidated
February 11th, 2007 at 3:23 pmImagine that.
unbelievable quoting the Bible. Her own Sunday school of sorts.
What would possibly make you a quotist from the Bible?
You do not believe in the Bible. Your credibility to quote it is lost.
You use it as merely a reference Book of sorts to prove??
Nothing more needs said really.
February 11th, 2007 at 3:27 pmNuff said.
All these great men of History see Islam for what it is. You people are nothing to dispute them. That you think you’re right only demostrates your insanity and craven arrogance.
February 11th, 2007 at 3:30 pmBill Kristol+9mm slug in Bill’s head=Service to all humanity!
February 11th, 2007 at 3:33 pmBill Kristol + 9mm slug in Bill’s head = Service to all humanity!
February 11th, 2007 at 3:36 pmI wonder how the FBI will take to these threats.
February 11th, 2007 at 3:39 pmPNAC! That’s about all anyone need say about Kristol. Just read the “newamericancentury.org” for an outline of all of his motivations.
The American public must DISMISS Kristol & all the members of PNAC, like Cheney, Rummy, Wolfowitz, Perle & Jeb Bush!
February 11th, 2007 at 3:41 pmI’m reading the Australian press… Obama has pretty much gotten them all upset by his insulting the Prime Minister of Australia.
Way to go.. attack our allies. You guys will like it.
February 11th, 2007 at 3:45 pmvince p’s post @ 154 proves undeniably that he’s an unabashed kool aid drinker. it’s a laundry list of right-wing mythology.
jason h is in for a rude awakening by about 2010, when peak oil production is eclipsed and begins to fall at a rate of about 3% a year, while oil demand increases at about the same rate (at least). investor confidence will dissipate, the world economy will contract, and capitalism won’t have a solution, because the world economy has single-handedly ridden cheap oil; it’s been the life blood of capitalism. you can’t “create” wealth (through the giving of loans) without investor confidence — when people KNOW the economy is in a gradual, protracted freefall, available capital will dry up (the horders will horde their bounty). this will change life as we know it, and could be potentially worse than the great depression.
and our short-sighted oil conquest in the persian gulf and caspian basin will be to blame. i’d offer solutions, but there are no good ones — the course chosen has all but guaranteed that. and the fault lies with the neoconservatives and those who supported them, and continue to do so.
vince p, jason h, kpk, joe, hacker bob — this means you.
February 11th, 2007 at 3:46 pmIslam is the only major religion in the world that has in its texts teh commands for its believers to kill everyone else.
Comment by Vince P
Well then, go pull a quote from your copy of the Koran to verify this statement. You got plenty of Bible stories, but where’s your facts on your “enemy”?
Just provide an actual quote, not a video from some hyper-radical sect, but a literal quote from a book we can reference and verify (preferably a scan.)
February 11th, 2007 at 3:47 pmI’m reading the Australian press… Obama has pretty much gotten them all upset by his insulting the Prime Minister of Australia.
Way to go.. attack our allies. You guys will like it.
Comment by Vince P
Yeah, with all of 1400 troops in non-combat roles, the Aussies are just not quite as entrenched as we, but just as culpable, therefore just as ripe (if not more for their half-hearted help) for criticism.
February 11th, 2007 at 3:54 pmhaving lived in australia until recently, i can tell you the pm there is not well-liked. and all he’s proven by his recent comments is that he’s a lop dog for bush (hey deputy howard, we need some “ally” quotes out there to make it look like ALL of your country supports the war on terrorâ„¢). this isn’t the first time he’s made comments pertaining to an american election.
it’s a shameful smear, and amazingly myopic. obama could end up as pres or vp, and all of the sudden australia is a country whose leader is on record attempting to link the man to terrorists. that’s not what’s known as good diplomacy.
February 11th, 2007 at 3:56 pmwake:
Watch this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tNw87A1f3Y
That lists for the maximum time allowable on YouTube the verses in the Koran that call for unbelievers to be killed etc… each verse shows for 2 seconds… over 500 of them
February 11th, 2007 at 3:56 pmObama is supporting Al Qaida. By advocating we leave without any regard to the consequences is a gain for AQ because AQ wants us to leave. It’s simple logic.
February 11th, 2007 at 4:04 pmWait…Kristol WANTS to see America in a civil war with itself?
The Obama speech was “can’t we get along” with EACH OTHER, not with Islamic Jihadists.
February 11th, 2007 at 4:05 pmI am from Quincy, IL where the Lincoln – Douglas debate took place. Kristol needs to go there,,,, In Washington Square between 5th Hamphshire and Maine, he will find a monument. On the back of it you will find engraved the main paragraphs of their speeches. Researching the local archives will also show that these were the talking points of the news in those days.
Mr. Kristol, you need to check out some History Books from your local library.
Coffee,,,,,,,,
February 11th, 2007 at 4:06 pmKRISTOL: We’re electing a war president in 2008.
February 11th, 2007 at 4:07 pmDoes he know something we don’t? Maybe he knows who the ultra conservatives have penned as their successor to chimpy. Diebold anyone?
Cartman: He’s referring to the fact that the 08 President is going to be responsible for handling the Jihad war against America. With Bush gone, they’ll know NO ONE in Washington will have any spine to fight.
Get ready for massive death here.
February 11th, 2007 at 4:11 pmKristol has always struck me as a guttersnipe, but this low, even for him.
February 11th, 2007 at 4:11 pmhey vince… the koran isn’t the ONLY religion that has that in its texts:
Deuteronomy, Chapter 13
frankly, it’s extremely naive to suggest christianity doesn’t call for killing nonbelievers. there are all sorts of violent punishments in the bible for a variety of transgressions, reasonable or not.
but, good job demonizing the religion christianity has viewed as its biggest threat since the middle ages. all of your quotes above really only go further to prove that.
christianity, like many religions, wants a monopoly on our souls. it, as an institution, has fallen into a pattern of saying and doing anything for the rights to your spiritual subservience.
February 11th, 2007 at 4:11 pm>Besides, Jesus was a Jew.
He still is
Comment by Vince P — February 11, 2007 @ 2:54 pm
No he’s dead. That means WAS.
You said you weren’t a Christian. Did you lie?
February 11th, 2007 at 4:13 pmunbelievable is a Persian shoe
February 11th, 2007 at 4:17 pmunbelievable quoting the Bible. Her own Sunday school of sorts. What would possibly make you a quotist from the Bible?
It’s called demonstrating facts. I know you aren’t familiar with it.
You do not believe in the Bible. Your credibility to quote it is lost. You use it as merely a reference Book of sorts to prove??
I can reference a tangible book I do not support. You don’t need to believe in it to ’see’ it, and therefore reference it… It’s not magical… Is this why you never touch a dictionary? You think you have to believe in it to use it?
Sheesh. Take your meds.
Nothing more needs said really. Nuff said.
Comment by Abraham from Israel — February 11, 2007 @ 3:27 pm
Then STFU.
February 11th, 2007 at 4:18 pmvince, you’re supporting al qaeda, and incidentally, china. the iraq war has only strengthened al qaeda and helped it grow. more arabs and muslims than ever before are now willing to die in a war with america because of iraq.
aq wants us to STAY, so we’re right there to harm — wasting our blood and treasure on this monumental mistake. see ussr vs. afghanistan. american troops will continue to die, and american wealth will only last until china pulls the plug on our debts. our economy will collapse, and china will be the new superpower.
it’s that simple.
February 11th, 2007 at 4:19 pmunbelievable is a Persian shoe
Comment by Vince P — February 11, 2007 @ 4:17 pm
Says the boy who cries that everyone picks on him…
Grow up.
February 11th, 2007 at 4:21 pmSince I doubt any of you will know what the Persian shoe reference is, you can look at this video from Al Jazeera
http://www.memritv.org
Look for clip #1347
Saddam’s Loyalist Mish’an Al-Jabouri and Shiite Iraqi Journalist Sadeq Al-Musawi Fight on Al-Jazeera TV over Saddam’s Execution
Their direct hyperlinks dont work very well when trying to pass them to other people
February 11th, 2007 at 4:22 pmWho the f u _ k does this neocon azzhole think he is? What an absolute piece of excrement for even suggesting he knows what Obama might think or do. To all of you neocon oil whoring, Israeli loving chitheads….EAT CHIT AND DIE.
February 11th, 2007 at 4:25 pmWho the h@ll does this neocon piece of excrement think he is and why does anyone give this azzhole airtime? Listen up punk… take your oil whore neocon warmongering buddies and move to Israel where they will welcome you in open arms. Get out of our country, you are traitors, theives, and murderers all. Oh and STFU ok?
February 11th, 2007 at 4:28 pm>vince, you’re supporting al qaeda, and incidentally, china. the iraq war has only strengthened al qaeda and helped it grow. more arabs and muslims than ever before are now willing to die in a war with america because of iraq.
And just how many are going to be willing if its perceived THEY DROVE US OUT. It will confirm Allah is helping them. Giving them irrational morale boosting. You cannot give them any victory. Their theology is such that no matter what we do , they claim it as a victory for them, so if i have to choose between getting them mad and killing them there… or leaving there, and making them think they defeated us there, let them take over iraq, destroy the middle east, and then still want to kill us, I’ll take horrible option A over really horrble option B.
>aq wants us to STAY, so we’re right there to harm — wasting our blood and treasure on this monumental mistake. see ussr vs. afghanistan. american troops will continue to die, and american wealth will only last until china pulls the plug on our debts. our economy will collapse, and china will be the new superpower.
The troops are doing thier jobs. If you make them leave only to have them fight these people another day soemwhere else you are only ensuring more of them will die than would have.
it’s that simple.
February 11th, 2007 at 4:28 pm“…social conservatives want to win the war against Islamic jihadism.”
Yes, they also want to win the war against the persuit of happiness, Habeus Corpus, Athiesm, Agnostisicm, Science, the Environment, Public Education, Pluralism, NBC, homosexuals, and any religion besides their own. The problem is most people do not agree with their wicked plans.
February 11th, 2007 at 4:35 pmihurl: If we dont win the war against this 3rd Islamic revival, the rest dont matter. especially your precious party.
February 11th, 2007 at 4:40 pmKristol is a genius. Because Obama was against a war that had nothing to do with 9/11, a war that has made our country less safe against terrorists, Obama is an appeaser. If Obama had been against the war in Afganistan, Kristol would not be talking out of his browneye, but this is just histrionics. Disappointing, as I usually think Kristol is an intelligent commentator.
February 11th, 2007 at 4:45 pmComment by Denis Robert
Here is where you are mistaken about me. I do not try to define Christianity other than my own. I see the hypocracy from the fundimentalists.
February 11th, 2007 at 4:46 pmRemember, Bill Kristol was Dan Quayle’s Chief of Staff. He was the idiot who flashed Quayle the que card spelling “potato” with an “e”.
February 11th, 2007 at 4:47 pmI guess the right wing nut jobs are warming up with faint praise before they go tot he call me Obama ads.
I like Al Franken’s comments about William Kristol. “The man who single handedly trick George Bush into going to war with Iraq.”
February 11th, 2007 at 4:51 pmKristol is absolutely correct, unfortunately.
February 11th, 2007 at 5:02 pmsince vince didn’t want to supply any links to his “Obama has pretty much gotten them all upset by his insulting the Prime Minister of Australia.” story, i went to google news…
i thought this was interesting:
Australia’s prime minister: Al-Qaeda ‘prays’ Obama, Dems win …
Raw Story, MA – 3 hours ago
Australian Prime Minister John Howard stepped into the US presidential race, by stating that Al-Qaeda is “praying” that Senator Barack Obama (D-IL), …
Obama Blasted By Australian Prime Minister For Anti-War Stance – All Headline News
* Obama Blasts Aussie Prime Minister for Iraq Policy Criticism – FOX News
Australian Prime Minister Says Obama’s Desire To Pull Out Of Iraq … – All Headline News
…
Australian Prime Minister Criticizes Obama
WETM-TV, NY – Feb 1, 2007
Australian Leader: Al-Qaida Wants Obama
The Associated Press Saturday, February 10, 2007; 10:33 PM
SYDNEY, Australia — Australia’s conservative prime minister slammed Barack Obama on Sunday… -WaPo
PM critical of Obama
Sky News Australia, Australia – 2 hours ago
The Prime Minister has been accused of putting Australia’s relationship with the United States at risk, after criticising the man set to run for President …
Howard sets off rift with US Democrats
2GB News, Australia – 15 minutes ago
Prime Minister John Howard has set off a firestorm between Australia and the US Democratic Party after he criticised the Iraq policy of Barack Obama, …
http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=&q=Obama%2CPrime+Minister+of+Australia&btnG=Search+News
*to repeat:
Obama Blasts Aussie Prime Minister for Iraq Policy Criticism – FOX News
notice how this story is twisted around by fox?
February 11th, 2007 at 5:22 pmvince, you’re being twisted, like a pretzel… and played like a drum…
…
Is this guy Kristol on mission to destroy America from inside And World from outside? Is it going to be the re-run of USSR, starting from Bolsovic revolution and ending up into powerless Russia? Is he anarchist? Wake my fellow Americans, we have enemy within posing as patriots. We have crisis, dwindling good pay jobs, vanishing guaranteed retirement, bulging deficit and these neo-cons (real con-artist) are pushing us into one after another war. If there is a God, please bless them with wisdom.
February 11th, 2007 at 5:23 pmThe majority of Bloggers do not see the reverse psychology behind FOX’s Kristol’s negative remarks about Obama supporting slavery. The psychological purpose is to increase the visibility and the support of Obama. Get it straight, The Republicans would love to run against a very politically vulnerable Democratic presidential candidate like Obama. They know they can Swift-Boat Obama until the north pole freezes over again.
February 11th, 2007 at 5:26 pmReverse psychology is used very effectively on children. Grow up America, stop thinking lineal and look behind the surreptitiously simple statements and stop reacting like Pavlov’s animals to the ringing of the ding dongs. I’m beginning to believe Democracy is a thesaurus for Pavlov’s ‘Ding Dong’; Our party always gets led by the nose by reacting to clever contrived statements that distract and lead in the wrong mental directions instead acting creatively and ignoring these clever contrived provocative statements planted in the MSM. Ask yourself two questions, “Why would the MSM give millions of dollars free media exposure to Obama?” and “Why would the spokesman for the ultra Conservatives attack Obama at the same time?” Look at the 321 responses Kristol’s MSM statement generated… all reacting defensively to the Kristol ridiculous asserting! Pavlov is Rove’s mentor and the Democratic Party is Rove’s experimental Laboratory.
Rant from Denis:
Vince P: And how do you know that Obama is a muslim? Because, as far as I know, he never was. His biological father was born into a muslim family, but considering that he considered himself an Atheist, he would have been considered an apostate by any muslim in the world.
Get your facts straight; you might sound more intelligent.
And BTW, it’s not the Progressives who started this desastrous, useless war. It was you conservatives. Yet now you claim that WE try to avoid the consequences of our actions??? What are you doing here? Why aren’t you in Iraq?
Comment by Denis Robert — February 11, 2007 @ 12:04 pm
http://asia.news.yahoo.com/070211/ap/d8n7n7bg0.html
Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama said Sunday he does not think voters have a litmus test on religion, whether evangelical Christianity or his childhood years in the Muslim faith.
“If your name is Barack Hussein Obama, you can expect it, some of that. I think the majority of voters know that I’m a member of the United Church of Christ, and that I take my faith seriously,” Obama said in an interview with The Associated Press.
…
Obama’s religious background has come under scrutiny because he attended a Muslim school in Indonesia from age 6 to 10. Obama, who was born in Hawaii, lived in Indonesia with his mother and stepfather from 1967 to 1971 and subsequently returned to Hawaii to live with his maternal grandparents.
February 11th, 2007 at 5:29 pmDenis Robert: great, great posts all of them.
People, about Vince P, do not feed him. He doesnt contribute to discussion, he just expresses opinions, no facts, just his own pathetic fears.
February 11th, 2007 at 5:31 pmElecting Obama will only make the Jihadis hate us even more.
Its bad enough the United States is a Kuffar nation but then if he was elected we’d be a Kuffar nation with a Islamic APOSTATE as President.
February 11th, 2007 at 5:32 pmIf you could all take off your rose colored liberal glasses for a moment, you’d see that Kristol has a good point. Obama is an appeaser where Lincoln would risk war for what is right.
Just because Kristol is a neo-con doesn’t mean he’s stupid.
February 11th, 2007 at 5:33 pmProgressives should consider if they want to provoke Muslim outrage by electing an Apostate as President.
February 11th, 2007 at 5:34 pmWhat an idiot.
Both lincoln’s and obama’s speeches were calls for unity.
His house divided speech was not a call to war (lincoln was campaigning for senator at the time). And Lincoln, unlike kristol, was not a neocon. Right wing revisionism makes me sick.
Don’t you think that if Lincoln was so eager to go to war he would have fired the first shot? last time i checked confederates started the bombardment of federal forts that brought the north into the war…
February 11th, 2007 at 5:37 pmHere is ABC News in 1999 CONNECTING SADDAM HUSSIEN AND OSAMA BIN LADIN
http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/186496.php
February 11th, 2007 at 5:40 pmWilliam Kristol should get his historical perspective right. This is an excerpt from a letter President Abraham Lincoln signed August 22, 1862,
Source:
February 11th, 2007 at 5:41 pmIt is amazing that someone who puts themselves out as an expert can be so decidedly wrong.
BUT, when all else fails, and your guy is coming unglued in the polls and in people’s thinking, I guess racist insults would be your only recourse.
BUT, it is not going to work this time. I am a registered Republican – please note, not a Publican insult as in shortened democrat – soon to become independent, and all these lying talking heads who excuse the mess this administration has made will see folks leave the party in droves. Folks in the party and my own integrity simply makes it impossible for us to continue to be associated with the party.
So, keep up the good work, Mr. Kristol. Your rants no doubt. single handedly increase the probability of a DemocratIC win in 2008.
February 11th, 2007 at 5:43 pmHere are some comments that were supplied with the video
The original ABC News report you linked to was from January 1999, I believe, and not 2000. The report was similar to numerous accounts in the worldwide press following Operation Desert Fox. That Clinton-ordered air campaign lasted from December 16 to December 19, 1998. Its purpose was to degrade Saddam’s WMD and intelligence capabilities. Reports from more recent years indicate that the campaign nearly plunged Saddam’s regime into chaos.
In any event, Saddam’s response was telling. Just two days after Operation Desert Fox ended he dispatched one of his top intelligence operatives, Faruq Hijazi, to Afghanistan to meet with bin Laden. As I and others have written, Hijazi was no low-level flunky. He was one of Saddam’s most trusted goons and was responsible for overseeing a good deal of the regime’s terrorist and other covert activities. It was this meeting that led to widespread reporting on the relationship between Iraq and al Qaeda. I collected a bunch of these reports, including the ABC News report, in “The Four-Day War.” Another, earlier piece also discusses Saddam’s conspicuous response to Operation Desert Fox.
The consensus in the media then was that there was a relationship between the two and that Saddam’s regime was very willing to work with al Qaeda against their common foe: America. And vice versa. Indeed, the reporting indicated that they had been working together even long before Operation Desert Fox.
The reports from late 1998 and early 1999 are tough for naysayers to explain away for a variety of reasons, but that hasn’t stopped them from trying. For example, last year’s Senate Intelligence Report on Iraq’s ties to al Qaeda (the report was written, primarily, by a former John Kerry for President campaigner) unhesitatingly cited Hijazi’s testimony, in which he claimed that he did not meet with bin Laden again after a lone incident in the mid 1990’s. The Senate Intelligence report did not cite any of the voluminous reporting, by ABC News and other outlets, following the meeting in December 1998. Obviously, that reporting demonstrates Hijazi is a liar. I asked the Senate Intelligence Committee’s staff about this after the report came out. They said they didn’t have any evidence that contradicted Hijazi’s testimony and that is why they cited it unquestioningly. I think that is a good demonstration of the ignorance or bias or both that clouds this issue.
Of course, at the same time that the worldwide media was reporting all of this, various CIA and National Security Council officials were watching as well. Thus, Richard Clarke worried in February 1999 about bin Laden’s possible “boogie to Baghdad.” A month earlier he defended intelligence tying Saddam’s VX nerve gas program to a suspected al Qaeda front company in Sudan. Michael Scheuer also at one time found it convenient to cite some of this evidence. In his original 2002 edition of Through Our Enemies’ Eyes he approvingly cited several of the media’s late 1998/early 1999 accounts. Of course, they both now pretend none of this really means anything.
Such is the state of affairs in today’s Washington establishment.
February 11th, 2007 at 5:44 pmNothing but silence.
Democrats are no good liars.
February 11th, 2007 at 5:50 pmBill is changing the subject from being a supporter of lying to the public yto scre them into war by saying something so stupid and vicious it drwons out the other news. Dont let him get away with it!
Keep your eye on the ball – it is all about the leaks of the trumped up crap in Feith’s report to the Daily Standard so the VP could then use it as an independent source backing up his own lies. This other stuff is meant as distraction.
February 11th, 2007 at 5:53 pmIf anything happen to Obama, i’d know who the killers are. Its the kristols, the feiths, and the wulforwitzs of the world. No matter who they get to their dirty work.
They have a real problem with Senator BORACK HUSSIEN OBAMA. Could it be, they don’t think he will kiss their collected asses, like most of the rest.
February 11th, 2007 at 6:18 pmlugnut: Obama is a Muslim apostate , its’ up to anyone in the Umma to kill him. You’ll need to widen your list of suspects a little.
It sure got silent in here all of a sudden.
February 11th, 2007 at 6:21 pmIt’s stunning how moronic Faux News and all involved are! They, along with the puppet/shrub/idiot and puppeteer deviant should be chucked out on their ears!
February 11th, 2007 at 6:22 pmObama’s religious background has come under scrutiny because he attended a Muslim school in Indonesia from age 6 to 10. Obama, who was born in Hawaii, lived in Indonesia with his mother and stepfather from 1967 to 1971 and subsequently returned to Hawaii to live with his maternal grandparents.
Comment by Vince P — February 11, 2007 @ 5:29 pm
Vince P actually BELIEVES that Obama is a Muslim. Vince, because he went to a Muslim school when he was six years old, doesn’t make him a Muslim. Vince, turn off Fox News!
God what a moron!
February 11th, 2007 at 6:27 pmJust looking at his face makes me want to puke blood. I don’t think I’ve ever said this but I hope someone accidentally runs him over.
February 11th, 2007 at 6:28 pmSteve: Why would the AP say he was if he wasn’t
http://asia.news.yahoo.com/070211/ap/d8n7n7bg0.html
Take it up with them.
February 11th, 2007 at 6:30 pmSteve: Who’s the moron? I cited the Associated Press as the source of the information and you automatonically perseverate “Turn off Fox News”
February 11th, 2007 at 6:32 pmIt’s this kind of crap is exactly why Kristol is a cowardly draft-dodger. He would have been fragged in boot camp on day 1.
February 11th, 2007 at 6:33 pmAre we really electing a “war president” in 2008, Mr. Kristol? Not if Bush’s “plan for a balanced budget” is to succeed. There’s not a dollar in it for war, starting with Fiscal 2009. Classic double-think from Fux News… “all the news that isn’t”.
February 11th, 2007 at 6:43 pmI’m pro-slavery too!!……………..
February 11th, 2007 at 7:07 pmWhy call Kristol a draft dodger when talking about Obama. I haven’t seen his military pictures posted. No way do I vote for Obama. If you look at his voting record only you will know you are voting for a republican without a ranch like Bush and Reagon.
February 11th, 2007 at 7:16 pmNot sure if it’s been mentioned before, but Kristol’s comment adroitly twists Obama’s support for greater civility and dialog among those involved in American politics to somehow be a call for “getting along” with terrorists, a position that neither Obama nor any other American politician would take.
It’s not surprising, of course, since twisting information is Bill’s forte. And if twisting doesn’t work, he’s more than happy to engage in full-fledged fantasies as his other comments on Faux Noise Sunday indicated. But perhaps he should be forgiven. If Obama’s efforts to raise the quality of debate above the pettiness represented by Kristol and his ilk succeeds, Bill would be out of a job.
February 11th, 2007 at 7:20 pm“one of the main teachings (of Strauss) is that all politics are limited and none of them is really based on the truth, so there’s a certain philosophic disposition where you have some distance from these political fights….you don’t have to take yourself as seriously as you would if you thought this was 100% truth.
William Kristol -founder member of PNAC explains the Neo-conservative mind set, hevily influenced by the teachings of Leo Strauss.
February 11th, 2007 at 7:21 pm“Why doe ANYBODY still listen to this guy?”
The more wrong you are, the more air-time you get.
February 11th, 2007 at 7:44 pmJohn Howard, Prime Minister of Australia, is a blowhard pretending to be “tough on terror” as there is an election coming up. Dick Cheney’s coming down to Australia in a couple of weeks then we’ll see the fawning sycophant side of the Prime Minister showing his “soft on bullies” side.
February 11th, 2007 at 8:03 pm> lugnut: Obama is a Muslim apostate , its’ up to anyone in the Umma to kill him.
> You’ll need to widen your list of suspects a little.
> It sure got silent in here all of a sudden.
> Comment by Vince P —
Most probably because you make moronic statements or have your head in someone eles’s sphincter.
February 11th, 2007 at 8:18 pmEl Tonno: Ah that’s a typical childish leftist response. Dont respond with facts, respond with name-calling. Very good conformist.
February 11th, 2007 at 8:49 pmOy vey,… little Billy spouting nonsense again. Obama’s candidacy hit a PNAC nerve bigtime it seems. Keep it up little Billy, and make Obama’s day. Past slavery debate regurgitations by neocons like Billy, only serves to enhance Obama’s chances. Bringing up the race issue is a meme that PNAC has nurtured to perfection, and AIPAC will fail to attempt to thwart Obamas’s chances of becoming the next president.
February 11th, 2007 at 9:07 pm… Rupert may sweep in and bitch slap Kristol soon…
February 11th, 2007 at 9:31 pmEven the FAUX News, Spun and Overdone Network viewers ‘like’ Obama… woe is Murdoch!!!!
After reading some of the posts I think some people have lost some historical perspective. First of all, the statement by William Kristol was just plan silly. He got what he wanted: energizing the Republican base.
February 11th, 2007 at 10:06 pmPre-civil war, the Democratic party did support slavery. Abe Lincoln and the Republicans who opposed slavery were flaming liberals. What else could they be to oppose and try to change a system (slavery) that one part of the country had to have to exist in the manner they were use to. Teddy Roosevelt was also a liberal. He pushed for some very progressive reforms not the least of which was trust busting. Can you imagine any Republican today supporting any of Roosevelt’s reforms. In the 1920’s things changed. You had both corrupt and incompetent Republican presidents. In the heart of the depression FDR was elected as a liberal reformer. He instituted some programs that the now conservative Republicans would still like to change or kill. The south still voted Democratic because the Republican party was the party of Lincoln and they were still mad about the civil war.
This all changed in the summer of 1964. A conservative southern Democratic president (LBJ) signed the Civil Rights Act of 1964. The evening after signing the bill, Bill Moyers (an aid to LBJ at the time) asked him why he seemed so depressed after signing such a great bill. LBJ said “I think we’ve just delivered the South to the Republican Party for the rest of my life, and yours.” And so it went. The south hated Lincoln, but they came to hate LBJ and the Democrats more.
What is the point of all of this. If Abraham Lincoln was alive today he would be a liberal. He would support a living wage for all Americans. Keeping people at a minimum wage is at best indentured servitude and at worst slavery. He wouldn’t support the class warfare the Republicans have waged on the middle class. Barack Obama and Abraham Lincoln have much more in common then Lincoln and today’s neo-cons who try to convince us that today’s Republican party is the party of Lincoln.
Rachel is mentally deranged.
February 11th, 2007 at 10:43 pmAw man, I wanted to see Juan Williams’ response.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:13 pmnumbskull, I guess that you don’t have the good sense that god promised a box of rocks. Please go find a busy interstate now. The need to put yourself out of your self imposed misery is great than you perceive. I might even find soom pleasure in that action. Better yet, a first class ticket to Baghdad is an even greater service to your country, and the folks on this site.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:26 pmIt really doesnt matter how much we hate him, or how much of an idiot he his. Kristol is an establishment insider, his father was one of the founders of the CIA, and he was a founding member of the project for a new american century. Did you hear his first sentence? “We are electing a war president in 2008.” Exactly. Kristol knows that the establishment has made their mind up on who they want in office in 2008, so the election is already over for the most part. The war will go on. We are going into Iran. We had all better wake and realize the country has been hijacked by internationalists and they are bringing in a new world order and they aint stopping for shit. It’s gonna get ugly folks.
February 11th, 2007 at 11:48 pmtest
February 11th, 2007 at 11:49 pmAl-Qaida wants Obama? Barack reponds
By: John Amato @ 3:45 PM – PST
All Spin Zone:
That’s what Australia’s Prime Minister John Howard says:
“If I were running al-Qaida in Iraq, I would put a circle around March 2008 and be praying as many times as possible for a victory, not only for Obama but also for the Democrats.â€
Obama’s camp responds…
“If Prime Minister Howard truly believes what he says, perhaps his country should find its way to contribute more than just 1,400 troops so some American troops can come home,” he said. “It’s easy to talk tough when it’s not your country or your troops making the sacrifices.”
and this:
“I think it’s flattering that one of George Bush’s allies on the other side of the world started attacking me the day after I announced,” Senator Obama said in Iowa.
“I would also note that we have close to 140,000 troops in Iraq, and my understanding is Mr Howard has deployed 1400, so if he is … to fight the good fight in Iraq, I would suggest that he calls up another 20,000 Australians and sends them to Iraq.
“Otherwise it’s just a bunch of empty rhetoric.”
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/02/11/al-qaida-wants-obama-barack-reponds/
go barack!
February 11th, 2007 at 11:56 pm.
Frig TP!
Talk about 9-11 on the Iran thread above.
TP doesn’t give a sh*t about trolls, so why should we keep our end of the bargin?
9-11 was a conspiracy! Talk about it on the other thread.
Screw them.
Comment by trueblue — February 11, 2007 @ 11:51 pm
February 12th, 2007 at 12:05 am#116, Denis,
Had to come back to your post on this. At first, I thought it merely naive, but later realised it is dangerously wrong.
Saying that investors / speculators / managers do not create wealth, and only the hands-on laborers who work raw materials do, is like saying that generals don’t win wars, only foot soldiers do.
I have witnessed many, many countless laborers squandering countless hours working hundreds and thousands of dollars worth of material, generating things with little or no value – certainly much less than the value of the raw material and wages themselves. It requires an individual with true customer / market vision to first develop the product / service and then hire / train / direct laborers to provide the product / service.
Without the critical ingredient of an individual(s) who knows what needs to be done and how, your commodity laborers would have no market value at all.
February 12th, 2007 at 1:16 amI wonder what Kristol would have brought up if Obama were a Jew, a Sikh, or a Catholic.
It doesn’t matter –
Krisol now rightly gets tarred as a bigot – for picking his talking points by the race of his target.
February 12th, 2007 at 1:25 am“Without the critical ingredient of an individual(s) who knows what needs to be done and how, your commodity laborers would have no market value at all.”
Okay adam smith.
Without the laborers it’s gonna be an awful lonely market.
February 12th, 2007 at 1:26 amOkay Snowball.
I agree. Some animals are more equal than others.
February 12th, 2007 at 1:31 amWho believes anything this war-mongering, NeoCon scumbag sack- of shit says anymore?
February 12th, 2007 at 2:04 amBarack is not just black, he’s half white. Why is everybody saying he could be the first black president when he’s half white?
The first half black/white president! Plus, he sounds more intelligible than the schmoes we got in office right now.
February 12th, 2007 at 2:23 amI’m afraid Kristol is right. We are blinded by our hatred of Bush, but when he is gone, we Democrats will find that we have allied ourselves with the Islamo-facist oppressors of the World. We need to start thinking of that, instead of wasting energy on a lame-duck like Bush.
February 12th, 2007 at 3:19 amI just wanted to commemorate post number 400 to KRISTOL&CO.
February 12th, 2007 at 4:52 amI have a few legitimate questions I would like an honest answer to from the posters here at Thin Progress.
Here goes.
Why dont you folks leave the government up to the professional government?
Why dont you folks leave the military up to the professional military?
What do you folks strive for?
What do you strive against?
What is the goal here?
Define the goal?
Define US politics today in detail.
Define US geo-politics & policies today in detail.
What is an enemy?
Who is the enemy?
Why are there enemies of the US?
Why are there allies of the US?
Who is an ally of the US?
Why are they an ally.
What is Christianity?
Why is there Christianity?
Who are these Christians?
What are Jews?
Why is there the Jewish faith?
Who are these Jews?
Why does mankind have a common bond?
Does mankind even have a common bond?
What is that bond?
The answers to all of these questions and many more are available in the best-selling book of ALL TIME!
The Bible.
February 12th, 2007 at 5:22 amVince –
You are correct in that Muslim is a relgion that has had trouble maturing beyone violence, but that has little to do with the iditoic policies of this war and the neo-cons. Their appeal to fear and conquest is simply just as backwards.
I’d rather have a better outcome thatn choosing between two “horrible” ones, as you said you were forced to do.
A better outcome might include applying some higher wisdom and smarts to the conflicts we face not imperialist (for hidden motives of treasure and hegemony) conquest.
Perhaps Obama is suggesting this, oh so rationally, and matrely, and he must be fought by the powers that be and rot our core like Kristol.
Get a grip.
February 12th, 2007 at 5:24 amIslam will “mature beyond violence” once its program is complete and not before. It’s program consists of worldwide domination.
To think otherwise is not consistant with actual Islamic teachings.
And the way Obama has handled his little fight with the PM of Australia really hasnt given me any reason to think highly of his leadership skills.
No one on the Democratic Party side is discussing the fundamental crisis we’re facing in the world. They put thier party above the country espeically when they keep saying this is “Bush’s war”… It’s America’s War and they better start taking some responslibity.
February 12th, 2007 at 5:34 amre#396 Mama
Do you not know American History?
If your skin absorbs more light that it reflects, you are black and treated differently regradless of who your parents are!
February 12th, 2007 at 8:03 amThe only good Kristol…
…is a…
…may his Karma come back to haunt him for generations…
February 12th, 2007 at 9:02 amBilly, Billy, Billy Kristol – come out, come out wherever you really are!
And for goodness sake, stop taking those extra strength STUPID pills. You really do undermine ANY credibility you might possibly have left. Well, almost all of us know you are just a silly Buffoon who stirred the WINDS of WAR and, by golly my Lad – you’re still out there stirrg away!
You must be REALLY afraid of Obama – you and that Howard guy from Down Under. Did That Cheneybush person give you a two a nudge – give you two – THE WORD???
Hahahahahahaha – nobody’s LISTENING to you anymore – don’t you know that? That’s the other bad thing about STUPID PILLS – sigh! Takes all sense of REALITY AWAY…
But Billy, having a “famous”/infamous name is no excuse to be sitting there inside the boob tube, smiling like you have a dirty little secret (of which you do have plenty) and pontificating the way you do!
This most recent little mumble-jumble of words he eked out between “smiling” teeth, was so incredibly inane and REALLY, REALLY ASININE, I could hardly believe he was actually saying it but then I considered The Source! Sigh – neo-WHAT? Con-Man, did I haer Con-Man?
A N D – who is that person who keeps posting him/herself with that very long, yet equally inane/asinine, frothings – pontifications that are posing as some form of intelligent series of statements on terrorism, terrorists among other “helpful” hints and rants.
I especially loved the suggestion about each person (does that include babies – just checking?) going out and snuffing-out (killing) “ONE” (terrorist) for ourselves and I guess that would solve THE PROBLEM.
But I’m not sure because, in my humble limitations, I just could not follow all this carp very well despite it being posted over and over again.
I do see a tad bit of a problem in each one of “US” gitting us each a terrorist. Suppose we make a MISTAKE and murder the wrong person? Or are you of the school of thought that “THEY” are ALL terrorists? Just checking again…
AND then, this person (the aforementioned, multi-posted “author”) has to go after good ol’ Al Gore – who, is by the way, very active these days in a SOCIALLY REDEEMING WAY – but I’m SURE not according to the Liberal-Basher author. But, as a good Liberal-Basher, he/she MUST invoke the name of Al Gore. Did he/she invoke the other Bad Guy and Gal – one of the Clintons??? I can’t remember – too much info in all that bunch of verbal trash… VERY, VERY confusing stuff but then isn’t THAT THE POINT!?
WOW- what a way to start a Monday or any day for that matter! I’ve been too busy working, signing petitions and writing my reps in Washington.
Gads, it feels GREAT to be back in Blog Land… All the great Screwballs running amuck, as usual…myself included, after all – fair is fair! : ) I’ve had my moments and will again! At least, I hope so. This one is mild for me!
February 12th, 2007 at 10:42 amI’d like to hear a neo-con be pro lucidity for a change.
February 12th, 2007 at 12:20 pmLincoln liberated the poor uneducated black slaves because he needed them as cheap labour in the industrialized North. Labour-money for free!
February 12th, 2007 at 2:10 pmThese capilists are no nitwits! What are they doing in Irak? Right!
The first Ford cars were sold to his emplyoees! Wasn’t that smart?
Think first, all the best,Joop.
What a Mama’s boy that Stinky Kristol is!
He has the kind of snout about which the old Russian proverb says:
Your face is asking for a brick.
February 12th, 2007 at 2:10 pmWOW!,, please give me a moment to pick my jaw off the floor.
Its amazing to read all these comments (admitedly i only read about half), people what ever happened to objectivity? i heard Bill Crystol’d words and read them, same impact on my brain same interpretation by it as well. After some thought about the comments posted by readers, i have concluded that many people have already concluded their thoughts and opinions, long before they hear or read certain other people’s comments or opinions. and that prejudice, biased or just hatred, is blinding or deafening and absolutelly imparing their ability so consider the posibility their thoughts and opinions may not be the best informed or most objective for a positive result rather than favorable to “politically correct” opinions!
Best Regards to all
The U.S.A. is still the best country on this planet!
February 12th, 2007 at 2:24 pmhmmmm. sounds like righty’s and whiteys is mighty afraid of the Senator from IL.
extra troll attention on any thread is evidence of righty’s priority list. funny they think they can sway participants here the way they sway poll respondents with loaded questions and false choices. obviously they’re using the same pr companies that they’ve used in the past for direct-mail and cold-call operations.
February 12th, 2007 at 2:29 pmComment by Salvador #386
…we’ve got what’s called…
…an OVERWHELMING” body of evidence…
…that has prompted our view on Mr. Kristol…
…what have YOU been looking at?
February 12th, 2007 at 3:15 pmKristol is a jew, so what do you expect. Besides, Lincoln could care less about slavery. He even said that. Before his assassination, Lincoln wanted to send all blacks back to Africa. Eventually, that is where the blacks are going to go. Obama is an idiot, and has no business running for President. Besides, it is illegal. He is a hybrid, and God doesn’t want his people Israel (the white race) to be ruled by a black, hybrid, or a woman. So the next President will probably be Hillary (a lesbian), and her Vice President Obama; a stupid incompetent hybrid. Does anybody see assassination in the making. It will probably happen.
February 12th, 2007 at 3:25 pmI’m an Australian living many years in the USA but also a former resident of the UK (another of Murdoch’s playgrounds). I know way more than I would like to about Murdoch and the snide little Howard.
John Howard’s Iraq policies are very unpopular in Australia. He is facing the prospect of high negatives and a resurgent opposition leadership facing the next election. Howard is the supreme “agent provocatuer”, so there may be some hidden local strategy in his statements. But more likely the White House asked this as a favor from Howard. The pattern is clear. Think of the recent attempts to spike the debate regarding Obama’s alleged attendance at an Islamic Maddrassa and now Kristol’s pathetic and historically false zinger. The right is obviously very worried about facing Obama as opposed to Clinton – so expect a lot more lies and subterfuge. Obama’s response to Howard has been very good. He should also openly ask Howard if it’s okay for American politicians to interfere in the Australian electoral process.
As for Bill Kristol – what a waste of hot air. His dreadful magazine has been heavily subsidized by Rupert Murdoch (mercenary extraordinaire) since its inception. Kristol’s daddy Irving gave him his public prominence by birth and he then stood out as Dan Quayle’s chief of staff in what seems to be his only day job of note. What a history of achievement – making an over-his-head fool sounding halfway presentable and living on the dole handed out by a (mostly) tits & ass media mogul with an extremist agenda and a much deeper sense of insecurity than you might imagine. Think about it – Kristol lives in that teensy weensy intellectual space between his neocon glossy rag and FOX News – both Murdoch playthings. How pathetic. Nobody can accuse him of independence of mind. Somehow, Kristol’s pseudo-intellectual demeanor continues to fool people that he has an original or enlightened thought in his head. The fact is that Kristol is a political hack of the most thuggish variety, only with a little more icing (or is it makeup?) on the exterior. Kristol is a fully vested member of a club of extreme righties that lurk below the radar only to surface every now and again to poison the public debate with anti-progressive invective. Watch him and you will see his modus operandi again and again and again.
February 12th, 2007 at 3:48 pmNothing but silence.
Unlike you, we have lives and other things to do.
Democrats are no good liars.
Comment by Vince P — February 11, 2007 @ 5:50 pm
Says the guy who who told us he wasn’t a Christian…
You do know that Republicans hate gays, right?
February 12th, 2007 at 4:42 pmWithout the critical ingredient of an individual(s) who knows what needs to be done and how, your commodity laborers would have no market value at all.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — February 12, 2007 @ 1:16 am
That was a rather long stint at the trough…
I see you’ve failed to answer my questions or address my points. Figures…
Tell us exactly how the master minds will function without the laborers. Cause I can tell you that the laborers will function without the talking heads…
And Jason, you’re just one grotesque talking head.
February 12th, 2007 at 4:46 pm“The U.S.A. is still the best country on this planet!?”
If trailer parks were actually amusement parks, which they actually are!! Disney World is making a great amount of money off of black people………
February 12th, 2007 at 5:19 pmKristal’s comments are typical of Republican intimidation tactics. Leaving Iraq does not “appease” the terrorists – it removes their handiest target.
February 12th, 2007 at 5:27 pmi watched this moron on sunday morning – dont ask me why; Why he resorts to saying that obama says “why cant we all just get along” = obama is rodney king.
I know Rodney King and Barack Obama is no Rodney King.
Nice try mr. kristal.
February 12th, 2007 at 8:21 pmUnbelievable,
Stephen Douglas was anti-slavery. He actually wrote the law that was passed that ended slavery.
February 12th, 2007 at 10:22 pmFrom Wikipedia:
Historian Allan Nevins was harsh on Douglas, “When it [slavery] paid it was good,” wrote Nevins, “and when it did not pay it was bad.”
Nevins consequently judged that Douglas did not “regard a slaveholding society as one whit inferior to a free society.” All in all, Nevins rather brutally assessed what he called Douglas’s “dim moral perceptions.”[22]
Graham Peck finds that several scholars have given brief opinions to the effect that Douglas was personally opposed to slavery, none of them with “extensive arguments to justify the conclusion”. He cites some more recent scholarship as (equally briefly) finding Douglas “insensitive to the moral repugnance of slavery” or even “proslavery”.
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Incidently, I live down the street from his grave. I never knew that until now.
February 12th, 2007 at 10:43 pmre comment no. 389 above – Comment by Terry Gabrich — February 12, 2007 @ 3:25 pm
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I thought the comments were moderated, no?
That kind of ignorant hate bile is allowed in? I hope just a few as examples of the ignorant crapheads that still plague us.
February 12th, 2007 at 10:47 pm398: I believe in freedom. Let whoever that is be exposed by his/her own words. of course it could questioned whether or not that’s a sincere posting or some attempt at rhetorical tactics.
February 12th, 2007 at 10:55 pmIn a message released Monday, al Qaeda’s No. 2 leader called on Muslims to unite under Taliban leader Mullah Omar and stop attempting to form secular governments.
Calling the governments of Iraq and Afghanistan, allied with the United States, “traitors,” Zawahiri warned the United States “is about to depart and abandon them, just as it abandoned their like in Vietnam.”
Zawahiri also took aim at Democrats, directing a part of his message to them.
“The people chose you due to your opposition to Bush’s policy in Iraq, but it appears that you are marching with him to the same abyss, and it appears that you will take part with him in the defeat and certain failure, with God’s permission,” he said.
“And the American people shall discover that you are all one side of the same coin of tyranny, criminality and failure.”
February 12th, 2007 at 10:58 pmBe careful with that language regarding “fight a civil war”.
This war industrial complex is counting on their intelligence to continue
to cause those “Civil Wars” to keep them in business.
We don’t want a war president, nor a civil war here in America, or anywhere, do we?
We want to be back in touch and stand on the principles
that founded Western thought, and our American ideals, first generated by Aristotle, the father of western thinking, 500 BC, who said that the only way to insure ourselves that a speaker directed to an audience (as big or small as that is) can be discernable as authentic enough to trust with our futures, is when he embodies the three principles, or offices, of truth: Ethics, Logic, and Passion.
When a speaker represents all three components in his speech, he can be trusted to lead. If not, we can be amused, but not be used or abused by the power of character that has no intelligence or goodwill, resulting in a lack ethics.
And don’t swallow anything someone dishes out that doesn;t demonstrate a claim, for or against whatever they are railing about, because if there is no claim, there is no logic and that person is not being logical.
And never ever trust a person who cannot display a passion for what he is up to, because without the temperature gauge of his commitment, the energy, the physics, and therefore the possibilities for action are limited, because it is passion that generates the ideas to act, and action causes energy. Passion allows the will to complete the goal with Ethics and Logic intact.
Don’t be a fool, as predicted.
February 13th, 2007 at 2:32 amKristol is so removed from the real word that most of us live in that alone constitutes a crime and makes him evil. These ‘DC’ characters have little better to do than to dream up new ways of creating turmoil and discord.
February 13th, 2007 at 10:22 amObama should strike back and call him out on what he said. Those comments are not only obscene, they are a reductio ad absurdum. You can’t make this stuff up–the right wingers have absolutely no sense and no shame.
February 13th, 2007 at 5:14 pm[...] announcement alluded to Lincoln’s famous quote: “A house divided cannot stand.” Allegations of Obama as a would-be supporter of slavery notwithstanding, the freshman presidential-hopeful [...]
February 14th, 2007 at 4:34 pmKristol’s usage of Lincoln’s house divided speech is rather misguided. First, Lincoln addressed that speech to the newly formed republican party as a means to unify the party in order to ensure success in forthcoming elections. It does not imply or foreshadow the civil war. Second, Lincoln and a large portion of the republican party did not want to abolish slavery in the south. Rather, they wanted to contain it because they believed its end would come soon. Kristol would have been better served to use Seward’s “irrepressible conflict between opposing and enduring forces” speech which not only implied, but also foreshadowed a civil war.
February 19th, 2007 at 4:35 amCan you smell the reefer?
March 19th, 2007 at 12:06 pm