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Before the relationships between the individuals can begin to be understood, it is important for all to recognize and acknowledge others…

close up pussy…

Gregor probably missed it because the outlets he gets his news from probably wouldn’t report on this. It would be counter productive to their political agenda.

“Now it’s my turn: Please provide links that show AlQaeda has stated the goal of making a fundamentalist Islamic nation out of Iraq.”

Did you read my link in #563? Is this when you first became aware of al Qaeda’s goals in Iraq? And you tell me to say atop the news. Whatever.

“It makes a huge difference. For them to make an Islamic fundamentalist state out of Iraq, they would have to agree on which version of Islam first.”

Even if they couldn’t agree on the version of Islam that wouldn’t stop either of them from allowing terrorist training camps to operate inside Iraq in order to carry out attacks against the West. They might fight each other because they disagree on the version of Islam they want the Iraqis to follow, but they both would still be engaged in their Jihad which requires training terrorists.

Some groups have no problem doing temporary alliances to fight united against a common enemy (us). while other groups insist on cleaning house first (the part you say), and then the enemy.

So reality is more complex than simple “Sunnah will NEVER work shia. … Secular will NEVER work with Jihadis”… Some will, some wont.

The Times was quoting US military and intelligence analysts. That is not the Times’ conclusion. Also, the resurgence of the Taliban has been reported over the years; here is a news piece from last year.

Maybe you are not aware, but Pakistan’s peace treaty with pro-Taliban militias was also widely reported. It was deemed a boost to the Taliban and its supporters in Pakistan

It makes a huge difference. For them to make an Islamic fundamentalist state out of Iraq, they would have to agree on which version of Islam first.

Are you a religious man, Tracy? If you are Southern Baptist, you do not recognize the authority of -say- the Catholic Pope, or an Egyptian Coptic Patriarch. The opposite is also true. It makes a very big difference, even though they’re all Christian denominations. The same thing happens in Islam.

1) This is speculation as only his inner circle knows where he is, 2) his militia is made up by men who are Iraqi nationals, 3) that Al Sadr has family, other ties in Iran is not a secret.

And the biggest factor behind the insurgency is still nationalism.

1) This is speculation as only his inner circle knows where he is, 2) most of his men are Iraqi nationals, 3) that Al Sadr has family, and other ties in Iran is not a secret.

And the biggest factor behind the insurgency is still nationalism.

Well if you think that reorganizing constitutes not “being in check” then you believe what you want. What other creditable new source other that the NY Times has come to the same conclusion?

You have got to be kidding. You should stay atop of the news.

The NYT was quoting US military and intelligence analysts. That is not the NYT’s conclusion. Also, the resurgence of the Taliban has been reported over the years; here is a news piece from last year: http://www.guardian.co.uk/afghanistan/story/0,,1951222,00.html

Maybe you ar enot aware, but Pakistan’s peace treaty with pro-Taliban militias was also widely reported. It was mentioned as a boost to the Taliban and its supporters in Pakistan:
http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0906/dailyUpdate.html

Shhesshh, Tracy. I don’t know if you were trying to crack a joke, but it was not funny….

I don’t think that the fact that al Sadar is a Shiite and al Qaeda are Sunnis really makes a difference. They both have the same goal of making Iraq an Islamic fundementalist state.

It makes a huge difference. For them to make an Islamic fundamentalist state out of Iraq, they would have to agree on which version of Islam first.

Are you a religious man, Tracy? If you are Southern Baptist, you do not recognize the authority of -say- the Catholic Pope, or an Egyptian Coptic Patriarch. The opposite is also true. It makes a very big difference, even though they’re all Christian denominations. The same thing happens in Islam.

“The reason why I brought it up is because I said the Iraqis probably already hate the US for having destroyed their country, to which you replied:”

Their country was already destroyed by Saddam! In case you missed it after him fighting a brutal war with Iran, getting their ass kicked in the 1st Gulf War, and then 10 years of sanctions the country was already in the dump. You made it sound like every thing was pristine and the quality of life in Iraq was great prior to the 2003 invasion. It wasn’t not even close to decent standards.

“The worsening of the living conditions in Iraq is directly linked to the destruction of the physical infrastructure. Don’t you remember what you wrote?”

The “looming” humanitarian crisis quote you posted spoke directly to the violence forcing Iraqis to be displaced, not the living conditions brought on by the inital destruction of the infrastructure or as you conveniently FAILED to mention the constant sabotage by the terrorists of vital components to the infrastructure that are being rebuilt. Again the living conditions today are not as much of a result of destruction caused by U.S. bombs in 2003, but the terrorists constantly trying to cripple the country.

“The absolute failure to rebuild Iraq had nothing to do with it either, I suppose.”

It has to do with the terrorists and insugents preventing it from happening.

“There are displaced people in the Kurdish area as well.”

See corrected typo below…

“You notice that the quote you provided didn’t say northern regions of Iraq, because low and behold that’s where the terrorists like al Sadar DO NOT live.

“Most news talk about Sadr City as his headquarters.”

And the most recent news talks about him fleeing to Iran. What a suprise.

“You also said something to the effect of AlQaeda training terrorists in Iraq,”

No I didn’t. I asked you not to throw that theory out there after I explained it. I was trying to preempt you.

“But now you backpedal and say AlQaeda is merely “an ideal”. ”

I don’t say that al Qaeda is a now more of a movement than a organization lightly. The fact that it’s now more loosely organized and wide spread makes it even more dangerous.

“So, pray tell, is AlQaeda an actual threat or just “an ideal” because “its leaders are in jaiil or hiding”?”

You don’t get it do you? al Qaeda as a movement/ideal is an even bigger threat beause there isn’t a central core of people we can track anymore. It’s evolved and changed. It’s like the world wide jihad call to arms. Do you understand now? How do we squash this ideal/movement? Democracy(in all it’s meanings)….unless you have a better idea.

“At any rate, I am happy you agree AlQaeda is not a driving force behind the insurgency, and that the insurgency is mostly made up of Iraqi nationals.”

I said it’s not the MAJOR driving force. There isn’t a single driving force behind the insurgents, there are many, who BTW are NOT all united in their goals. It’s nothing more than a power grab and all of them are not fighting for the good of the Iraqi people.

“Please provide links that show AlQaeda has stated the goal of making a fundamentalist Islamic nation out of Iraq.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/11/AR2005101101353.html

“Zawahiri called that stage the setting up of an “emirate,” in as much of Sunni-dominated Iraq as possible, to be followed by the longer-term goal of a “caliphate,” reuniting the historical Islamic empire centered in modern-day Egypt, Lebanon and Israel.”

“They are neither “in check”, nor in Iraq.”

Well if you think that reorganizing constitutes not “being in check” then you believe what you want. What other creditable new source other that the NY Times has come to the same conclusion?

“The question you ask sounds bogus to me for that reason -they are not the driving factor, and unlikely to grow in influence after the departure of the US because the main force behind the insurgency is nationalism.”

Just because most of the insurgents embrace this idea of “nationalism” doesn’t mean that al Qaeda will be forced out or make the decision to leave. With their complex and effective propoganda machine at work inside Iraq, this nationalism idea just might embrace the ideals of al Qaeda. It happened in Afghanistan. You might remember that many of the Afghan nationals were very much and in many cases still are in support of al Qaeda and their goal, i.e. Islamic fundementalist rule of the world.

“AlQaeda are Sunni fundamentalists”

“AlSadr is a Shiite Muslim. AlQaeda are Sunni fundamentalists, their brand of Islam is the only valid one in their eyes.”

I don’t think that the fact that al Sadar is a Shiite and al Qaeda are Sunnis really makes a difference. They both have the same goal of making Iraq an Islamic fundementalist state.

“I posted it. It was a month. Go ahead and weasel out of it. You cowards always do.”

You changed it. It was 3 to 4 months. You are the one trying to weasel out of it. You are the coward.

“It wasn’t an opinion. It was a fact. You didn’t say you were sorry for what you did – but that Lee misinterpreted what you said”

The fact the he misinterpreted what I said and took my comment as not be courteous to him made his demand for an apology mute after I explain that it wasn’t my intention to be condesending.

“About time you admitted it”

I didn’t admit anything and you know it. Don’t be obtuse, because you aren’t smarter as evidenced by your limited architectural knowledge.

“I didn’t. I posted the FIRST comment I made to you. You cherry picked a part of our discussion, and then started this conversation…”

Then why did YOU respond with your 3 to 4 month proposition?

“Reading comprehension that much of problem?”

It seems to be for you because you like disregard your own statements..

“Is that your final answer? Cause your last response said you didn’t agree to it.”

I didn’t agree to your one month time frame. You brought up the 3 to 4 month one….not me.

“You wanna ignore that to reneg on the reality that I was right, well, how typically cowardly of you”

fI you want to deny what you stated then….oh well. That’s cowardly.

God damn it, Tracy! The reason why I brought it up is because I said the Iraqis probably already hate the US for having destroyed their country, to which you replied:

The U.S. destroyed their country? Oh, yes the Iraqis were perfectly content with Saddam and his sons raping their country for 30+ years.
Comment by Tracy — February 19, 2007 @ 12:50 am

You challenged what I said. The worsening of the living conditions in Iraq is directly linked to the destruction of the physical infrastructure. Don’t you remember what you wrote?

The “liberation” didn’t and isn’t about to cause this humanitarian crisis….the terrorists, i.e. the Iraqi nationals that are part of the “death squads”, [...]

Right. And the invasion and occupation had nothing to do with it. The bombing and destruction of their electrical network had nothing to do with it. The destruction of the potable water delivery system and water treatment plants had nothing to do with it either. The absolute failure to rebuild Iraq had nothing to do with it either, I suppose.

Please, get a clue.

You notice that the quote you provided didn’t say northern regions of Iraq, because low and behold that’s where the terrorists like al Sadar live.

Tracy, you ask for links and then don’t even bother reading. Go back to the UNHCR web site, and check out the bloody maps. There are displaced people in the Kurdish area as well.

And if you are talking about Muqtada AlSadr, depending on what news you read, he either lives in Sadr City in Baghdad, or in Al Najaf. I have never read a news piece that puts him in the Kurdish area. Most news talk about Sadr City as his headquarters.

Al Qaeda is today an ideal or movement considering it’s leaders are either in jail or in hiding. I said the al Sadar has the same goal for Iraq that bin Laden does…make Iraq an Islamic fundementalist state.

::sigh::

The reason why I mentioned most insurgents are Iraqi nationals in the first place, was because you said:

You actually think that many of Iraqis will considering the many of their militas are helping al Qaeda inside Iraq?
Comment by Tracy — February 19, 2007 @ 12:20 am

You also said something to the effect of AlQaeda training terrorists in Iraq, about AlQaeda not leaving Iraq if the US withdraws, and the US needing to stay in Iraq to keep AlQaeda “in check”. But now you backpedal and say AlQaeda is merely “an ideal”. So, pray tell, is AlQaeda an actual threat or just “an ideal” because “its leaders are in jaiil or hiding”?

At any rate, I am happy you agree AlQaeda is not a driving force behind the insurgency, and that the insurgency is mostly made up of Iraqi nationals.

Other than some form of democracy, i.e. sharing power politically, economicall, and militarily, in Iraq what is going to stifle al Qaeda and it’s stated goal in Iraq?

Now it’s my turn: Please provide links that show AlQaeda has stated the goal of making a fundamentalist Islamic nation out of Iraq.

The links you provided very clearly state that the strongest force in insurgencies in nationalism. Establishment of Islamic rule is a force -mainly of foreigners, that we already agreed are not a significant force in Iraq; something the article you provide also points out.

They have been kept in check evidenced by the fact that no expert believes that al Qaeda organization is today even close to what it was prior to the U.S. kicking the crap out of them in 2001.

They are reorganising, Tracy, and not in Iraq. Their allies the Taliban are launching ever bolder attacks on NATO forces in Afghanistan. This means the “fight them over there” meme is bogus. They are neither “in check”, nor in Iraq.

Please tell me why al Qaeda would leave Iraq if the U.S. leaves?

Are you going through an early onset of Alzheimer’s? How many times do I have to say this? I don’t know what they will or will not do. All I know is that AlQaeda is not a significant force behind the insurgency. The question you ask sounds bogus to me for that reason -they are not the driving factor, and unlikely to grow in influence after the departure of the US because the main force behind the insurgency is nationalism.

Would it not be a safe assumption that if someone like al Sadar topples that current Iraqi government in a coup that they wouldn’t think twice about letting al Qaeda set up terroist camps in Iraq?

No, it isn’t a safe assumption at all.

AlSadr is a Shiite Muslim. AlQaeda are Sunni fundamentalists, their brand of Islam is the only valid one in their eyes. AlSadr is more likely to side with Iran -who happen to be enemies of AlQaeda, for the same reason.