Last night on Fox News’s Hannity and Colmes, right-wing radio host Neal Boortz claimed that teachers unions are “destroying a generation” and are “much more dangerous than al Qaeda.” He stated, “Look, Al Qaeda, they could bring in a nuke into this country and kill 100,000 people with a well-placed nuke somewhere. Ok. We would recover from that. It would be a terrible tragedy, but the teachers unions in this country can destroy a generation.” Sean Hannity agreed, noting, “They are ruining our school system.” Watch it:
The National Education Association, the nation’s largest teachers union, represents more than 2.7 million of America’s teachers and educators. In 2004, then Secretary of Education Rod Paige similarly called the NEA a “terrorist organization.” NEA responded to Paige’s remarks, saying it is “morally repugnant to equate those who teach America’s children with terrorists.”
Boortz also called to abolish the Department of Education and in the past, charged that public schools are “brainwashing” American children. Contact Boortz about his comments HERE.
(HT: News Hounds)
Transcript:
SEAN HANNITY: Alright, let me ask you. Because, you — when you said about the Department of Education — you want to abolish it — when you said that the teachers unions is more dangerous to this country in the long term –
NEAL BOORTZ: In the long term, yeah.
HANNITY: Than al Qaeda.
BOORTZ: Right. Look, Al Qaeda, they could bring in a nuke into this country and kill 100,000 people with a well-placed nuke somewhere. Ok. We would recover from that. It would be a terrible tragedy, but the teachers unions in this country can destroy a generation.
HANNITY: They are.
BOORTZ: Well, they are destroying a generation.
HANNITY: They are ruining our school system.
BOORTZ: They’re much more dangerous. We worry about al Qaeda and we should. But at the same time let’s not let the teachers union skate.
HANNITY: They destroyed our school system, and we don’t do anything. The parents — why there aren’t people rising up against it is unbelievable.
So, Neal, are you advocating that we drop a few bunker busters on our nation's schools?
February 20th, 2007 at 10:54 amI pay about $10,000 a year in property tax, most of that going to fund local public schools. I elect to homeschool my kids. (I am not a Christian).
It is unfair to compare teacher's unions with terror organizations, but it is fair to ask: "If we are spending so much on public education, why is the quality of education so poor?"
The public education system in America is failing our children. The NEA bares the responsibility for that failure.
February 20th, 2007 at 10:59 amHANNITY: They destroyed our school system, and we don’t do anything. The parents — why there aren’t people rising up against it is unbelievable.
Let's get this straight...
Hannity: Fox has destroyed our News system, & we don't do anything.
The parents - why their aren't people rising up against Fox & it's lies called news is unbelievable.
Boortz is like 'Insight' magazine...throw crap out there, hoping no one notices it's lies, & when called to produce facts, change the subject.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:03 amThe Rightards are anti-union to the nthdegree. They're scared of rational people asking for equal & fair treatment from the Corporate whores they call the 'business community'.
Just when you think that the Repukes can't sink any lower, a gem like this comes along.
Boortz also called to abolish the Department of Education and in the past, charged that public schools are “brainwashing†American children.
Anyone else see the irony in this jackass being allowed to spout his filth on "Hannity and Colmes", a propaganda outlet thinly disguised as a news and opinion show, with the opposition point of view (Colmes) being intentionally weak and ineffective? Brainwashing, indeed.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:03 amComment by paul — February 20, 2007 @ 10:59 am
The NEA bares the responsibility for that failure.
Check your spelling, Mr. Homeschool. talk about a ruined generation.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:03 amConservatives have an agenda that is focused on privatizing our public schools. To them, it's a great policy because (1) they get to funnel money towards education companies that donate money to them; and (2) they get to get tax breaks or reduced taxes they can use to pay for their kids' private school education.
Why don't we improve the public schools for the benefit of all instead of privatizing schools for the benefit of the wealthy? Another short-sighted Republican policy.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:04 amIs the column by Boortz based on an actual occurrence?
I notice it is from September 2002. Is there any more background to be found on this particular column?
February 20th, 2007 at 11:05 ampaul darlin, The reason our public education system is failing, regardless of the mone spent, is because we have a cabal of corrupt dumb as dirt politicians running the show. These people in power do not like the reasoning process...the real process of education. They prefer the canned variety and they are not at all ( truly) concerned with our children. They are concerned with power. Hope that clears it up for you sweets.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:05 amand then you have fools like this:
http://blogs.chron.com/sciguy/archives/2007/02/warren_chisum_h.html
follow the links... you've probably heard about this...
another "it's the jews fault"...
i swear, they want a generation of poor dummies to man their perpetual war for profit...
February 20th, 2007 at 11:05 amI am a product of public education. You're making my point for me.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:07 amBoortz also called to abolish the Department of Education and in the past, charged that public schools are “brainwashing†American children.
Yet, in the State-adopted textbook for 8th grade social studies, the publisher continually refers to the 14th Amendment as providing protections only for citizens. That is a subtle brainwashing...the 14th Amendment provides protections to all persons. That's a huge difference. Under the 14th Amendment, legal immigrants, and, yes, even persons here illegally, have certain rights. But with the publisher's re-write, children are brought up to think it's ok to strip those rights from all non-citizens. That's brainwashing.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:07 ampaul sez:
That amount of property tax would put the value of your home at roughly $500,000.
I'm having a hard time feeling sorry for you.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:07 amHow many times have we heard that our nation's schoolteachers are overpaid? Oh wait . . . never.
Republicans will argue till their blue that a CEO deserves a $400,000,000 severance package even where a company's stock is in the toilet, but God forbid a schoolteacher gets a $1,500 dollar raise or a dental plan.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:07 amAll the greedy conservatives are welcome to go jump in and become teachers and fend this thing off.....
**crickets chirping**
Thought so.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:07 ams. I agree with you. If you really believe what you say, you would support privatizing education. Vouchers, etc.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:09 amFine comments above. Remember this, the Republicans don't value questioning, the examined life, or the truth. They are cowards that would rather have the "certainty" of a false, easily constructed reality than honestly investigate the nature of reality. That should tell you all you need to know about how they view education. To them, education is about getting skills to best screw your neighbor out of A LOT of money and then learning how to escape accountability. Their favorite "courses": "Introspection Is So Yesterday" ...or......The less thought, the more money!
February 20th, 2007 at 11:11 amComment by paul — February 20, 2007 @ 10:59 am
How does the NEA bear responsibility for "the failure of the public school system"?
Do you know the sole purpose and legal responsibilities of labor unions?
You best look that up before you make any more false statements.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:11 amPaul, why do you hate America?
February 20th, 2007 at 11:14 amHaving been a teacher and a school board member, I saw the real ruin of public education coming from the public, both parents and non-parents. Not supporting the educational system in terms of discipline and financially slowly drove dedicated people to other professions. A huge percentage of teachers leave the field after five years due to a lack of respect and pay relative to other professions. The erosion of support filtered to the children who get the message that schools and teachers are not valued so education itself is not valued. Then, the effort on the part of students decreases.
Teachers should be held accountable for teaching. The students must be held accountable for learning. Parents and the public must be held accountable for support. Teachers are being used as scapegoats.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:14 am#2 paul
I say they bare only partial responsibility since there is a whole pile of factors that cause the problems in our education system, which are not endemic throughout.
The big problem I have is the tenure clause, which typically will allow teachers to slack in their duties and not be punished for it. If a teacher is not doing their job and should be fired for it, then a structure for such actions must be in place. I'm not saying remove all protections teachers have for job security, just be practical about it.
Another problem is that this country is finding it difficult to fill teaching positions. Why is this? Because teachers, with their education, can typically get into other fields that pay more and do not come with as much stress. The argument that they are paid enough and get the summer off just does not cut it. Typically, a teacher is at the school 5 days a week from 7 - 3 at the very least, often until 4 or 5 because they stay after school to help students with their school work, or help with other after school activities. On top of that they have to create lesson plans every day, not to mention grade the work of students, so typically they are working at the very least a 10 hour day.
Another problem is the fact that parents shirk all responsibility. If the kid is bad, it is the schools problem, but discipline that works is no longer allowed. I say end in school suspension. Make the parents deal with them at home for a week or two. Then that may solve some of the discipline problems.
Also, there is the lack of respect for education in this country. Look at people like Limbaugh and Coulter who scoff at academics. Their outlook is passed to many conservative parents who pass it to their children. So, getting this claptrap about minimizing the importance of education and academics must be removed from the perception of our society in order to have any chance at improving our public education system.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:14 am#2 “If we are spending so much on public education, why is the quality of education so poor?â€
I'm a former private school brat. And frankly, what gets spent on public school is peanuts compared to private schools.
That said, if you look at schools in wealthy districts, they have excellent performance, and high per-student spending. If you look at everywhere else, they're cash-starved, and their performance sucks.
It's a cheap and dishonest rhetorical trick to point to how much are spent on the rich suburban districts to complain about money going into the system, and then to poor districts when looking for the results of that investment.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:14 amOn C-SPAN I once saw a talk by Grover Norquist, shortly after the 2004 election, in which he acknowledged that No Child Left Behind was mainly intended to destroy confidence in the public school system so that voters would support its being replaced with state-funded private for-profit schools. He said that the strategy was essentially the same as the Social Security privatization campaign: convince the public that an institution "isn't working" so that they will scrap it. Someone needs to find this clip and put it online. It's important--a real key to the motives behind comments like these.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:15 amThere is an unchallenged premise here; that the public school system is failing.
I suggest the opposite premise. The public school system in the United States is providing exactly that which it is designed to provide. Paul is living proof of that. People educated such as he are easily malleable by the ruling class.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:15 amFrom their point of view, for what they want to happen, their claim is true. They want a facist totalitarian dictatorship, so teachers unions are more dangerous to them. Al Qaeda provides the fear they need to accomplish their goal.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:17 ampretty funny, functional illiterates complaining about education!
February 20th, 2007 at 11:17 amThey are both just mad because they CLEARLY didn't have a good education themselves.
I assume they hate the teachers unions because of the liberal slant they bring... like history, facts, and science.
Because normal teachers don't teach strict catholic teachings, then what they are choosing to teach instead must be wrong. I wonder if Hannity also hates teachers worldwide - ANYONE who teaches anything other than unquestioning loyalty to Republican presidents only, global warming is a myth, and God is real.
Lunatics.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:17 am'Conservatives have an agenda that is focused on privatizing our public schools.'
No its about getting rid of public education so that only those who can afford it will be educated. Stupid people are easier to manipulate. people who say 'common sense is all you need in life' are the conservative politicians best friends. Think of life before the New Deal and you'll get an idea of what the conservatives want. These are people who didn't want to fight King George (the actual one not the president) and believe in an aristocracy.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:18 amIf you really believe what you say, you would support privatizing education. Vouchers, etc. -- Comment by paul
Why would one support that? Charter schools have been shown to be less successful than public schools (why do you think Bush's "No Child Left Behind" program exempts them from measurable goals?) Also, Edison Schools, the largest private school administrators, have been kicked out of many districts for poor performance. Why should I pay a private company a profit on top of what I'm already paying towards public schools when they've been shown to be less effective?
February 20th, 2007 at 11:19 amI believe that the government, as our founding fathers defined it, IS the people. With more people, eyes on the ball, you get more accountability. Privatisation of education puts something very fundmental to freedom in the hands of those who's number one aim is profit. Privatization and Education cannot and should not mix. The same goes with health care. The Cons that mistrust government do not understand what Democracy is aiming for...is all about. For them, everything seems to be about profit. They fear government but trust profiteers. Go figure. We only have to run from government like the plague when folks like BushCo are in power. Even then, the solution is not to turn things over to people like them in the private sector--"for profit folks" The answer is to pull together as a society and provide education for all that is not controlled by a few, and thus corrupted and shaped to further the aims of money and power. Let's face it, the rich have no problem keeping the poor dumb. Or for that matter, sick. Get it?
February 20th, 2007 at 11:20 amThe public education system in America is failing our children. The NEA bares (sic) the responsibility for that failure.
Comment by paul
Next you'll be blaming the UAW for all those layoffs at the Big Three. It's a labor union. They represent the workers in a capacity that they try to get the best working conditions possible. If you want to blame the administration of monies and policies that are ruining our schools I would suggest you look elsewhere.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:20 amI work as a substitute teacher in several public school systems. Every work day, I observe other teachers and their interaction with students. I can't speak for all teachers and all school districts in the country, but you will never meet more committed, dedicated people anywhere.
Using teachers as scapegoats for the nation's ills is just more shamless right wing propaganda whining. From what I've seen in the schools I work at, people like Boortz and Hannity should be ashamed(of course, they appear to have no conscience or sense of morality..just a need to inflate their egos and make big paychecks slandering other people who have no access to mass media).
Don't blame the teachers. Don't blame the NEA. Not unless you have some smoking gun evidence. Again, the teachers in the districts I work in are wonderful people. I teach in suburban Rochester, NY. Here teachers make a good living and are required to have Masters Degrees. Sure, there's probably a few bad ones. In some parts of the country...well, I don't know...but I bet there are some pretty hard working dedicated teachers there too...who probably don't make much money.
Don't knock teachers in general. That is prejudice. Prejudice. That means "pre-judging." Very bad. Weakens your character. You could wind up a totally delusional slimball - like the Hannity and Boortz.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:21 amIt doesn't help the school system when we get countless news stories of young female teachers taking advantage of their students. Will those stories effects schools the same way stories of priests abusing boys has hurt the church?
February 20th, 2007 at 11:21 ampaul sez:
If you're as damaged by our public school system as you say, perhaps you're not the best choice for teacher of your children.
Just sayin'...
February 20th, 2007 at 11:22 amRepublicans are cut-n-run on education. They don't have a plan.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:22 amWow, Fox News had an ignorant douchebag on? Whoda thunk it?
February 20th, 2007 at 11:22 amfox accusing public schools of brainwashing wins the
February 20th, 2007 at 11:23 am'projection/unintentionally hilarious palme d'or'.
when's the new fox business channel starting up!
20-21-22----great comments. So true
February 20th, 2007 at 11:25 amAnd this is EXACTLY how nazism started... George Washington set the example of what we must do to our own government when we cannot wait for justice any longer. Step by step they are goose stepping their way to that point.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:25 amThat's beautiful!
February 20th, 2007 at 11:25 amWas this on the 1/2 Hour News Hour? I tried to watch some of that but I counldn't get through it all.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:27 amPaul,
You and people like you bare the responsiblity for the failure of public schools.
You listen to the non sense of GOP and run around like a chicken with its head cut off.
You want to cut taxes for the rich which in turn pushes more of the tax load onto the local tax payers in the form of property taxes. You want lower taxes force the rich and corporation to pay their proper share of taxes.
The GOP has sold you and other Republicans a bill of good that are corrupt in their principle and rotten to the core.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:28 amGood thing no-one watches this crap anyway.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:28 amFox Noise Channel makes much more sense when you add a laugh track like Keith Olbermann did last night.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:28 amThis is a red herring, a despicable and slimy one, but a red herring none the less. This boortz character is irrelevant and only the truly ignorant would listen to him (which is why hannity looks so enthralled and why paul is sporting such wood).
Everyone knows that a key hot button for progressives and democrats is equitable, valuable, and available education. Someone is pushing this button to try and detract from the following:
- Iraq invasion shut down
- Abandonment of veterans
- The lyin' and cheatin' administration
- IRAN!
If you fall for this then you too will be "homeschooled" by the likes of paul.
By the way, Chevrolet and BMW are both sponsors of boortz. If you own either brand of vehicle, be sure and spit in the teacher's face the next time you go to pick up your child.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:33 amnot to distract from the fox war on parody, but didn't the previous sec. of ed. call the teachers terrorists as well?
February 20th, 2007 at 11:35 amI tried to watch the 1/2 Hour News Comedy Show just to see what they were saying. It was like a mean spirited Hee Haw without the pretty sluts and no country music, to break up the bad jokes.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:36 am#23 - "the public school system is failing."
EVERYTHING IN AMERICA IS FAILING! Health care, our environment, widdling down the number of homeless, increasing our stance in the world, competing with the world (in terms of things like car exports, etc...)
Kids are more stupid than I've ever remembered - now that we have stores and songs and everything else in the mainstream being spelled wrong on purpose. We have kids not realizing that they are writing "ur" instead of "your" in school papers.
We're a nation that turns on the TV to watch crap like American Idol, Americas Funniest Home Videos, and Real World to keep us like vegetables. We're overweight slobs. Lazy. Idiotic.
The look and mindset of our government represents the American people fairly accurately. Stupid, pasty, lying, drug using scum.
America and Americans suck - the world knows it.
When was America ACTUALLY the greatest nation? Hasn't it always been a myth? Our ancestors came and killed the native Americans. We had wars of all kinds with other countries and ourselves. We enslaved Africans, we kept women from voting.
We STILL have sexism and racism running rampant in many parts of the country. We elect Arnold Shwartzenegger and George W. Bush to positions of power.
Our girls go wild, our boys are raped by clergymen.
We settle for the Windows operating system, no matter the viruses and freezing. Because we're lazy and cheap, and don't want to work for something better.
We're snobby and stuck up, and at the same time illiterate. Malnourished. We want to teach ID instead of natural selection. We listen to Clay Aiken.
We still have countless ghettos and poor people. New Orleans has never been repaired as promised.
We spend $7,000 on minerals from the earth, but refuse to spend any money to keep the earth in good health.
We're gas guzzling, fast food eating, science disbelieving jerks. We're childish - we name French Fries Freedom Fries even though fries are from Belgium.
We spend money pimping our cars, but put nothing into helping our community. We kill each other for a necklace.
The list goes on, and on, and on, and on and.....
I am not saying that all Americans are like this. Nor am I saying it's only Americans. But... when looking around at the US and then other countries - we don't look too good, do we?
February 20th, 2007 at 11:36 amSomeone didn't like reading hour in grade school....
They say "Do well in school so you don't have to work construction. But if that doesn't work out you can always do FOX news."
February 20th, 2007 at 11:42 amHere's another dose of reality:
The amount of red-tape and hurdles one must go through to become a teacher in California has convinced a lot of people to choose other careers.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:43 amregarding #31 from Chuck
Which suburb are you in, if I may ask? My dad retired from the Fairport schools a while back.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:44 amAnother thread with great post's....I agree with you (s) and many others....What I find very disterbing is the constant use of terrorests terms from the reich.....According to all of them any thinking person that does not believe and agree with their garbage is an alquida or terrorests....They are using these word's on every one these day's...What the hell is that all about.?....Blessings
February 20th, 2007 at 11:44 amYeah, it's really a bitch that our kids are learning critical thinking skills and taught the scientific methods that drive their curiousity to explore and seek answers.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:44 amA real bitch that they're not robotic automatons that are ready to swill whatever kool-aid Rush, Bush and Jimmy Jones tell them to.
And the freak show marches on.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:46 amsick stupid f*ckers.....the minute they roll out non-union teachers is the minute i start homeschooling my kids.
deregulation, by any other name, is a screwing for most of us. has been in every other area, and sure as hell will be with education.
i'd like to see boortz and norquist beaten against each other until music comes out or they shut up, whichever comes first.
the "our schools are failing" argument is nothing but bullshit. parents with kids in school all know this, because all our kids are getting a better education than we did, especially in math and science - are we behind some other countries - yes - but that's because of deep cuts by REPUBLICAN'TS to education, not because the teachers belong to a union.
if you think unions are a "problem" for anyone, you've got your head twisted on backwards from lapping up propaganda - i'm sure your teachers told you to do a little more research before coming to dramatic conclusions.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:47 amThe right wing War on Intelligence continues...
February 20th, 2007 at 11:53 amYeah Sharon and RUcurious. I agree. There are different views, to be sure, about what it means to be truly alive. Some think it means to BE ALIVE. To live in the present moment fully, to be responsible, to search, to love, to work. Others, due to their own obstructions and fears want to claim a spot where they can feel "untouchable" by the uncertainties in life. ( impossible of couse but that doesn't stop them) They are the destrucitve head in the sand folks. I feel that the lust for power is really about this-a desperation for some kind of safety..to hell with everyone else. And people like this view others as "product" or "threats" or "just plain IN THE WAY" These people cannot be entrusted with the education of American children.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:53 amOk, first Boortz is not a right winger. He is a libertarian. When was the last time you heard a right winger support gay marriage, was for the legalization of drugs and prostitution, or that was pro-choice?
Now, how about if we let the public school system teaches our children Math, English, Reading Comprehension, and Civics. Spanish Class should be an elective, not a requirement, as it is here. They can stop teaching about "family values" and "morals". I am in the best position to tell my kids why "Heather has Two Mommy's", not the schools.
Teaching social issues detracts from the purpose of the schools. Public schools feed our kids high carbohydrate meals for lunch, then do not give them sufficient time to (recess, Phys Ed class) to burn it off. Then the same schools complain about childhood obesity. Anyone else see the irony here?
February 20th, 2007 at 11:53 amAh - so first I am a terrorist, now I'm worse than Al Queda simply because I'm a teacher and I encourage my students to think rather than blindly listen to blowhards such as this aptly named BOORtz.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:54 amI see the threat that thinking might have on Faux "news" ratings, as well as far-right wingnut radio shows. Guess I'm more dangerous than I thought.
s- Great post.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:57 amComment by Anonymous By Choice
Do you live in the US? If so, I will help take up a collection so you can relocate to a place more fitting.
and yes, I am serious.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:57 am#47 AMEN
February 20th, 2007 at 11:58 amBob, I thought you were in Iraq?
February 20th, 2007 at 11:58 amIs spanish a requirement for Iraqi kids?
Uh,.... Bob...
February 20th, 2007 at 11:59 amWhy aren't you packing your kid a nutritious meal in a lunchbox?
TripMaster Monkey. Don't feel sorry for me. I'm okay. The issue is the amount of money we are spending on education and its relation to the end product. Many lament our academic standing in the world despite the relative high per captia spending.
The concern I have is not for me or my family. It is for the future of America. Concern for people of all income levels to have choice. I contend that the answer is not more money, but competitive forces.
Think about it. Image if the government mandated there be one significant car manufacturer that was subsidized by your tax dollars. The size and color of your car was determined by where you lived. Sure you could buy a privately produced car, but the only options cost $70,000 and up, and you still pay the taxes for the inferior car that you won't drive because it isn't safe. You could complain to the dealership, but they understand your complaints don't matter. No matter what you do, they'll get your money. Why should they work to make better cars, there's nothing in it for them.
The lack of incentive to perform in our education system is the real limitation to improving it. Public education is as close to communism (not a negative slight, but a real assessment) that we have in this country. What made/makes our society great are free market forces. Let's apply them to public education.
By the way, I don't begrudge anyone living in a half a million dollar house. They worked hard and earned it. I've got a nice house I like, but half the taxes are paid on rental properties. I feel good about providing people with a place to live. I could manage more properties, if the tax burden wasn't so great.
February 20th, 2007 at 12:00 pmThe only "problem" I see with public schools are the layer upon layer of administration. That's not a union problem. There are some great school administrators, but the ratio of admins to teachers is pretty hosed up.
February 20th, 2007 at 12:04 pmComment by RUCerious — February 20, 2007 @ 11:58 am
Who said I was in Iraq? I am at Camp Lejeune, NC. I have done 2 tours in Iraq. I think you may have misunderstood something.
Uh,…. Bob…
Why aren’t you packing your kid a nutritious meal in a lunchbox?
Comment by RUCerious — February 20, 2007 @ 11:59 am
3 out of 5 days I do. The wife and I also fix breakfast for them and we all sit down to dinner together every night I am home.
Strange thing, I actually do what a parent is supposed to do.
February 20th, 2007 at 12:05 pmThe only “problem†I see with public schools are the layer upon layer of administration. That’s not a union problem. There are some great school administrators, but the ratio of admins to teachers is pretty hosed up.
I do agree that there is way too much administration in the school system.
February 20th, 2007 at 12:06 pmSorry Bob, I thought you were still over there.
February 20th, 2007 at 12:09 pmSo if you are packing your kids lunch, why are you all fussed up about the lunch menu?
What have you, as a parent and participant, done about your perceived problem?
#64 paul
there is a difference between communism and socialism. communism is a form of socialism, like a square is a rectangle, but socialism is not communism, the same as a rectangle is not a square. Public schooling is inherently socialist, not communist.
February 20th, 2007 at 12:09 pmTo be successful, a country needs a balance of capitalism and socialism. A little socialism is good in our society, especially in schools because it allows everyone an equal chance at acquiring the tools they need to become successful in society. Applying market forces to every system in society is dumb and will just create part of a population which is more money grubbing than currently, and the other part will be locked out of a chance to succeed because they cannot afford an education. The moment you create a system of privatized schools, dependent on market forces and allow profit will mean the top priority of those schools will be profit and not education, and the price of education will soar far beyond what public schools needed to operate.
What is this guy drinking? Are you kidding me? How twisted these reighwingnuts thought processes are! They're precisely the ones to be worried about - not the teachers - unless, of course, the teachers are teaching children about what "democracy" is all about - something these nutcases abhor. Too much!
February 20th, 2007 at 12:09 pmKeep talking, Wingnuts! Help America see you as the loonies you truly are!
February 20th, 2007 at 12:11 pmI wuz homeskewlt en I ternt out jes fine. I wuz edumacated to some good ol cuntry twangin, woooo dogggy! Me hot sis went to dat der public skewl were their is some teachas dat thunk theys outta get paid er sompin, dad blame dem dare commie pinkos!
February 20th, 2007 at 12:12 pmI'd like to see Boortz say that in front of the NEA annual meeting. Coward.
February 20th, 2007 at 12:19 pmRE: Paul's statement: "The concern I have is not for me or my family. It is for the future of America." Right Paul. Uh huh.
You wouldn't know what America is really about if it bit ya. You don't listen, you don't think, you don't question.
You don't even understand what real freedom is. It is not the kind of "freedom" our coroporate masters are presently offering and spinning. You are not educated on how the corporate, conservative masters, spin and maniuplate the game so that the middle class is squeezed out. You still think it's a "free" market place. Get an education. Please
February 20th, 2007 at 12:20 pmThe problem with the school system is that it's basically a government run monopoly. What do you get with big monopolies? Mediocre results.
Without competition and accountability, nothing will change. The school system is a beast that consumes money for the sake of consuming money. They're also trying to guarantee outcome instead of guaranteeing opportunity. Because lets face it, not all kids are going to achieve the same results.
Lots of noise has been made about the exit exam, but what about having an entrance exam? Instead of promoting kids automatically from grade to grade, lets test them to make sure they're ready to be in the same classroom as other kids. Why hold back the other kids who are ready?
February 20th, 2007 at 12:21 pmAnd another thing PAUL!!!......
"No man is an island." That probably doesn't make much sense to you. Anything that has to do with community efforts....is "commy" to you. There don't seem to be any grey areas guy. Let me explain a bit: You drive on a road that the government ( in the best of times.... that is we the people) , with all of our dollars, provided. Everything you do all day is dependent on the efforts of others. Don't fool yourself into thinking you are independent. In a sense, yes. But the whole conservative NONSENSE and cowboy mentality is DEAD. I'm not advocating the scene in Dr. Zivago (which you probably don't know about cause of your education level) where Zivagos' home was taken over by the masses either.
God I'm sick of people that are too lazy to think and thus cause so very much damage to everyone else.
February 20th, 2007 at 12:25 pmThis is why americans are so fucking stupid!!! Why do guys like this get so much attention in this country?? This man added NOTHING to the debate. Iraq is the issue and what's being done in Iraw in our name is what going to come home to roost!!!
February 20th, 2007 at 12:28 pm[...] Neal Boortz) Would Sean Hannity work with Osama bin Laden to destroy teacher’s unions? What’s worse: A teacher’s union or al Qaeda? SEAN HANNITY: Alright, let me ask you. Because, you — when you said about the Department of [...]
February 20th, 2007 at 12:29 pmThis thread would not be here at all if more money was spent on our school's, teachers and education system instead of the industrial war monger's.....Our senior's and poor are strugeling, schools are crumbling, teachers are leaving the profesion and our vet's are being kicked to the curb...The cause is the reich winged thieves that have stolen from all services to feed the top 2% more profit and bulging bank account's....Can we work together to return sanety and non violance to our society.? I hope so....Support teachers and all the good causes..Dump the republican's and the war mentalety..Let's work together to rebuild our nation..Blessings
February 20th, 2007 at 12:29 pm#64,
Your ignorance has just blossomed into total absurdity. What's best about it, is that you did it to yourself.
You want a "privatization" of education because "competitiveness" solves all. Then, you start using the auto industry as an example not realizing how great an example that it is.
How is the auto industry doing, by the way? For the last 15 years the US auto industry has gone balls out for profit. SUVs and other environmental catastrophes have dominated their line up.
Were they thinking about the best interests of their customers or society? No.
Were they looking forward. No.
Were they even providing the best product for their consumers? No.
All that they were after were profits. And look what it got them. 100,000's laid off. Billions of dollars lost. Companies collapsing and looking to desperate mergers to save themselves. Who is the number one automotive manufacturer in the US market by the way? (I'll give you a hint: It starts with a "T" and ends with an "oyota")
That's the model that you want for an education system? Good lord!
February 20th, 2007 at 12:30 pm[...] nutjob Neal Boortz claims that teachers unions are “much more dangerous than al Qaeda.” This is encouraging because, typically, teachers have been on my side in most matters, and [...]
February 20th, 2007 at 12:33 pmIt would not be much of a stretch to compare the current administration to Al Qaeda.
I'll lead off. The current administration has done more harm to America and Americans than Al Qaeda. It would take a very long time for Al Qaeda to kill us all or even do significant damage. However, the current administration can wreak havoc in a matter of days. There, see how easy it is.
The only difference being that the current administration and its neocon underpinnings actually wish to relegate all Americans to it's dictatorial power. At the moment the administration is lining up all of the ducks so the purse strings of liberty can be drawn tight, extinquishing your liberty and mine.
February 20th, 2007 at 12:37 pmComment by RUCerious — February 20, 2007 @ 12:09 pm
First, I live on base, so my children go to school on base. The education is more about academic education and less about social education. They do teach the required science, civics/social studied, math, etc. But they leave out the "lets talk about gay penguins" stuff. That is for parents to teach, not the schools.
So, I basically took my kids out of the public education system. That is how I solved my problems.
Oh, and my oldest has received the Presidents Award For Academic Excellence, placing her in the top 10% nationally for her grade level.
February 20th, 2007 at 12:39 pmTuber. You are delusional. The issue is about choice. Let me sum it up with an example.
Would you rather be limited to driving a Yugo or would you rather be able to choose from hundreds of automobiles, and drive the one that best suits you needs. Arguably, every one of those choices would be of better quality than any automobile produced by communism.
February 20th, 2007 at 12:40 pmPaul is a sucker for the top boys. He doesn't know he's been played but those that have fed him his belief in the "free" market. Home School away P.
February 20th, 2007 at 12:44 pmDespite some of your sorely misinformed opinions about Microsoft I do agree with most of the other opinions on here about our schools... once I look for solutions just like Microsoft does... and stuff like what is in this article is what we need to be doing. Totally changing the concept of schools. Instead study how humans can best learn in this modern world...
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/Business/story?id=1049526&page=1
February 20th, 2007 at 12:45 pmI had a similar conversation with a right wing friend of mine several years ago. He is the type to say that he does not support Bush 100% but defends every action Bush makes. Anyhow the substance of our discussion was that I said Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Fox News, Ann Coulter etc... were a greater threat to America and our way of life than OBL and AlQueda. My position is that the rightwing propaganda machine has the ability to completely subvert our national identity and convert view we have of many long held American values and absolutely undermine them to a point where the government could alter those ideals with barely a whimper of protest. On the other hand all AlQueda has the ability to do is kill our citizens. They have no ability to overthrow our government, subvert our system, take us over in any fashion. This was back in 2001/2002 long before we invaded Iraq. In hindsight I would say that as of today my position is holding more true than his. Torture, invading non-threatening nations, lack of personal responsibility in our leaders, the death of habeus corpus, domestic warrentless spying, detention without charge or trial etc... and many other topics are far more acceptable today than they were 6 years ago. I attribute this as much to the rightwing propaganda machine as anything.
February 20th, 2007 at 12:45 pmI have said this before about Boortz and will say it again every time he insists on making an idiot of himself -- if you remove the fifth and sixth letters from his last name, it describes him perfectly. He's a BOOR.
The country is in greater danger from teachers' unions than it is from al-Qaeda?!? Puh-leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeze...give me a break already!! Granted, teachers have a lot of power to influence children -- but they don't have nearly as much influence as the children's parents (and/or primary caregivers) do. It's convenient for conservatives to heap all the blame for the so-called "destruction of a generation" on teachers, but at least some of the blame belongs squarely on the shoulders of parents who seem to have abdicated their own responsibilities as teachers. As an example, I think that one of the most important lessons a parent can teach their child is how to love learning and appreciate education for its own sake since this will help encourage a child to do well in school and make it that much easier for the teacher to do his or her job.
February 20th, 2007 at 12:50 pmCost vs Score
February 20th, 2007 at 12:51 pmhttp://bp1.blogger.com/_CQyU4ayBifw/RdTqTOgvq5I/AAAAAAAAABI/y4xpt0wAVzw/s1600-h/spending_schools.jpg
It is unfair to compare teacher’s unions with terror organizations, but it is fair to ask: “If we are spending so much on public education, why is the quality of education so poor?â€
Comment by paul — February 20, 2007 @ 10:59 am
Because:
1. Parents aren't doing their jobs in many cases. They let their children run the home, and that means that many teachers end up dealing with behaviour problems more than they should - which impares the quality of education in the classroom.
If I suggest my students read something of tehir own volition - they groan. 90% of them go home and play video games, watch television and goof off. As long as most parents condone this, work ethic suffers in the classroom.
2. No Child Left Behind and other standardized testing that plays to the lowest common denominator. It teaches kids to memorize pointless facts that they will forget after the test and wastes their time. We need to be teaching them critical thinking skills instead.
3. The job pays so low that people who study teaching in college generally have the lowest SAT scores. I've heard horror stories, and after two years in the profession, I can tell you that the teachers are as much of a product of the low quality education as the students are.
4. Your taxes don't go to the kids as much as you would like to think.... Go to a few Board meetings to find out where it does go (will require critical thinking skills to read beyond the obvious).
Just my two cents...
February 20th, 2007 at 12:52 pmPaul its not about driving a car.
February 20th, 2007 at 12:52 pmBobbo, congrats on your daughter's excellence!
Are the teachers at the base school involving you in your children's education to the level you are satisfied with?
February 20th, 2007 at 12:52 pms. These are your words:
paul darlin, The reason our public education system is failing, regardless of the mone spent, is because we have a cabal of corrupt dumb as dirt politicians running the show. These people in power do not like the reasoning process…the real process of education. They prefer the canned variety and they are not at all ( truly) concerned with our children. They are concerned with power. Hope that clears it up for you sweets.
I may be a sucker for the top boys; but I am having a little trouble reconciling your lament of the current state of the public education system without appreciation for the circumstances that caused it. The NEA opposes choice, as it challenges the power of the NEA. In a free market, it's the consumer that guides choice. If parents were allowed to take the money from the 'cabal of corrupt dumb as dirt politicians running the show' and take the money to school's that addressed true needs of the children, wouldn't that solve the problem's you are so cognizant of?
February 20th, 2007 at 12:55 pm#80,
You say I'm delusional, interesting. You want education to be run as businesses. Here are a couple of undeniable facts about businesses:
- Their prime motivation is profit, not producing the highest quality product for the consumer..
- Businesses fail. And when they do, the customers are left without a source and the employees are screwed (Enron anybody?)
Education is not a "product", it is an obligation to our children. You want to whore out the nation’s children for profits. You might as well start pimping your kids off to the Foleys and Haggards and Limbaughs of the world. I’m sure you can make a bundle.
It's disappointing that you cannot see this. But, quite frankly, I am most sorry for your children. If it is a delusion that children should always be put before profit, then I will gladly remain "delusional" in your eyes.
May your children survive your arrogance and avarice.
February 20th, 2007 at 12:55 pmSharon. Right on.
February 20th, 2007 at 12:55 pmIt's a freakin disgrace how this society values (pays) its teachers, from K-12 through CCs.
You can tell a lot about a society from how it values different professions.
In West African tribes, the griot (story teller) and musicians are revered professions.
In this country lawyers and doctors make the most money, but professional sports players and "rock stars" are what are paid the most.
What a freakin set of values.
Wow, that is a good one! The teachers union is a terrorist organization because they work very hard to try to get provide a decent education for all children in this country.
The thing that is ruining our schools is Bush's so-called "no child left behind" underfunded program. The teachers are now required to basically "teach to the test". They spend so much time teaching to the test, they don't have much time left over to teach students things they will need to know to survive well in this world.
February 20th, 2007 at 12:59 pmunbelievable. I appreciate what you do. I will also concede that it is a societal problem that teachers are being saddled with parental responsibilities. I just believe choice and free market are the answer.
February 20th, 2007 at 1:01 pmBut, as many here are fond of pointing out, you can support the troops without supporting the mission. The best thing we could do for teachers is to abandon the failed effort.
Yes, they can beat your ass with your rulers, really dangerous.
February 20th, 2007 at 1:01 pmI thought of another factor:
5. Football
While I love football, it dictates a lot. It eats a lot of tax money money, and the coaches are rarely decent teachers (since they are there to be coaches first). Plus the coaches get too much input into school policy.
Also, we treat high school students like elementary school children. 86% of students who drop out of high school are not failing any subject. They leave because of the irrelevancy...
February 20th, 2007 at 1:03 pmPaul, it's not worth discussing with you. In my view, you don't get it. I will say this. The public education system, in order not to fail, needs more money, federal support, and less restrictions such as mandatory testing put into place with No Child Left Behind, which is a covert way of destroying an open educational system. Tried to sneak "Brownie" somehow into the post but I'll leave that to you.
February 20th, 2007 at 1:03 pmThey are concerned with power.
Comment by s — February 20, 2007 @ 11:05 am
Nail on the head!
February 20th, 2007 at 1:04 pmComment by RUCerious — February 20, 2007 @ 12:52 pm
For the most part. There is an "Open Classroom" environment and parents are encouraged to drop in unannounced (provided they check in with the office.) From my 5 year olds class, we get DAILY feedback in a folder and a weekly newsletter announcing what will be covered that week.
My 12y/o (award winner) brings home a planner daily that we are required to read/sign as well as progress reports and quarterly conferences. We are also allowed to "opt out" of any subject matter we feel is inappropriate.
There is a lot of give and take between parents and the schools. More than I experienced when my kids were "out in town".
February 20th, 2007 at 1:07 pmAll the greedy conservatives are welcome to go jump in and become teachers and fend this thing off…..
Comment by ForTruth — February 20, 2007 @ 11:07 am
If I had a dollar for every greedy neocon who insulted me for doing just that, I wouldn't need a pay increase :)
Seriously... They look at me like I'm crazy for leaving a $75K a year job for one that pays $30K less, even though I hated the better paying one and love teaching... All they care about is hoarding money.
February 20th, 2007 at 1:07 pmEducation is not a “productâ€, it is an obligation to our children.
At a private school, education is a product.
Let me ask you this. If you could educate you kid at a private school without having to pay any more for it, would you?
The education is better, because the administrators have to perform to meet enrollment.
Free markets are not evil, despite what you have been told. Ask eastern Europeans how good the alternative is.
February 20th, 2007 at 1:08 pmIf you really believe what you say, you would support privatizing education. Vouchers, etc.
Comment by paul — February 20, 2007 @ 11:09 am
No paul - the way to fix the system is by fixing it - not abandoning it...
Private education is inferior. Go do the research. Private teachers get paid even less and are held to no professional standards... So they can make up anything they want, teach it and not be held accountable for spreading misinformation.
No - the solution is to fix the system we have.
February 20th, 2007 at 1:10 pmA huge percentage of teachers leave the field after five years due to a lack of respect and pay relative to other professions.
I heard it was 1 in 5. 20% attrition rate in the first five years is not a good sign, and so what does the DOE do to fix it? Make it worse... We got timeclocks this year...
Teachers should be held accountable for teaching. The students must be held accountable for learning. Parents and the public must be held accountable for support. Teachers are being used as scapegoats.
Comment by PatrioticLiberalChristian(PLC) — February 20, 2007 @ 11:14 am
Well said!
February 20th, 2007 at 1:14 pmOK, neocons, see if you can answer these:
1. What factor has been shown to be overwhelmingly predictive of student performance in school?
2. Why can't private schools and public schools be meaningfully compared in terms of student performance?
February 20th, 2007 at 1:16 pmRUCerious, Yup! and Thank's for the notice.....When I had children in school it was a partnership and when voting for school's it was a must....Sadly to many parent's do not support teachers and treat them like baby sitter's..These same parent's often do not parent either....Our society has become lazy and that has caused a lot of our problem's like the reich taking over everything and robbing us blind...
On another note summers on the way and You, Krazny and I must figure out where we can join up for a glass of wine and polatics..How did your viset with the representatives go the other day.? Sorry to be OT...Blessings all
February 20th, 2007 at 1:18 pmIt's not a monopoloy. There are plenty of private schools- and public schools. And believe me, they all compete. Moreover, it's the teachers that matter!!! Up their salary and there is the competition you desire. I hate it when people use communism like it's some hot-word but not really applicable to the situation (by the way, check out Cuba's educational system). Education should be available to the public , and teachers should be better paid. Also, this constant testing has damaged teacher's abilities to teach creativity in addressing problems rather than simply crunching numbers.
And with all who compare the right-wing propoganda machine to AlQueda- no shit.
February 20th, 2007 at 1:19 pmFree markets are not evil, despite what you have been told. Ask eastern Europeans how good the alternative is.
Comment by paul
And where do we find these mythical free markets? Surely you're not referring to the American system? Need I go through the various instances when govrnment stepped in to protect businesses and stifle competition? Or the instances in which capitalist entities colluded to suppress the "free market?" What country do we go to to find this outside-influence-free environment? Or admit that your free market faith is based upon a lie; that we have a so-called free market environment in the US.
February 20th, 2007 at 1:20 pmOf course right-wing radio hosts believe teachers unions are much more dangerous than Al Qaeda!
Groups that teach people to use their mind and think are extremely dangerous to right-wing radio hosts, because that means they will have fewer possible listeners!
February 20th, 2007 at 1:23 pmI appreciate what you do.
Thanks
I will also concede that it is a societal problem that teachers are being saddled with parental responsibilities. I just believe choice and free market are the answer.
Of course you think that's the answer - you haven't worked in the school system to see that it's not. We want to keep it under the eye of government where there is accountability - and money is not the priority.
The best thing we could do for teachers is to abandon the failed effort.
Comment by paul — February 20, 2007 @ 1:01 pm
Being a teacher, I disagree. Because the problem isn't teaching - it's our culture. And good luck in changing that over night...
February 20th, 2007 at 1:25 pmFear knowledge, and build on ignorance.
The Republican mantra...
February 20th, 2007 at 1:28 pmRUcerious, I'm glad about your oldest but you know that doesn't necessarily mean anything about the school system. I consistently was scored in the top one percent in the nation, and I was a public school kid from the ghetto. Plus, others tend to catch up in college. The real problem for me was that public school was such a damn waste of time (many bad teachers, teaching to the test), and parents (and the media) weren't instilling their children with a value of and love of education. It's hard for teachers to deal with a huge classroom (oh, there's funding, too! why do they have 40 kid classes again?) of children who don't respect them and what they're trying to do... thus things get dumbed down quite a bit. I wouldn't mind of public school rules were more strictly enforced... in that, kids can be failed, instead of passed up through the grades without having to try at all. With the type of slacking that goes on, repeating years should be common experience until kids learn to take their education seriously (again, they would also probably not slack as much if the classes were smaller).
February 20th, 2007 at 1:28 pmAt a private school, education is a product. Comment by paul — February 20, 2007 @ 1:08 pm
So is compost, but you wouldn't serve it on your dinner table. Calling something a product doesn't make it better.
Let me ask you this. If you could educate you kid at a private school without having to pay any more for it, would you? Comment by paul — February 20, 2007 @ 1:08 pm
That depends on the needs of the child, the particular school and whether the child could get enrolled. You really don't know anything about private or public education do you? Typical conservative. You want to throw out a system you don't even understand.
The education is better, because the administrators have to perform to meet enrollment. Comment by paul — February 20, 2007 @ 1:08 pm
The education is not better. Private schools can often restrict enrollment, including not accepting poor performing students or disruptive students. These are the students that bring down the standard averages - yet we commit to educating them in public schools. In statistics, this is called the student-level covariates. The NCES in the US Government did an exhaustive study on this topic recently, and guess what they found.
In English paul, when you remove the poor performers and special needs children, and those students that the private schools won't teach - the test scores are basically identical.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/15/education/15report.html?ex=1310616000&en=abe9690ed35b306f&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/pdf/studies/2006461.pdf
The study also found that students in Conservative Christian schools lagged significantly behind their counterparts in public schools on eighth-grade math. Great huh? I'm shocked that Christians would fall behind in math, considering it's about logic, and reason - especially based on your posts *cough* NOT!
Free markets are not evil, despite what you have been told. Ask eastern Europeans how good the alternative is. Comment by paul — February 20, 2007 @ 1:08 pm
They aren't evil, but they aren't perfect, or even better like you believe them to be. I suggest you ask the poor Eastern Europeans how their education is paul.
February 20th, 2007 at 1:28 pm1. What factor has been shown to be overwhelmingly predictive of student performance in school?
Answer: parental involvement and investment in eduction. You don't like the outcomes of public education? Blame the parents for the bulk of the problem and quit taking money from the schools which are providing for those parents and students who do care.
February 20th, 2007 at 1:30 pm2. Why can’t private schools and public schools be meaningfully compared in terms of student performance?
ValiantVenusGrewFromUranus has the answer and it bears repeating: Private schools can often restrict enrollment, including not accepting poor performing students or disruptive students. These are the students that bring down the standard averages - yet we commit to educating them in public schools.
February 20th, 2007 at 1:36 pmIt doesn’t help the school system when we get countless news stories of young female teachers taking advantage of their students.
Comment by Anonymous By Choice — February 20, 2007 @ 11:21 am
Countless? There have been a few. And most of those women were mentally ill.
Besides, I've seen high school juniors and seniors pursue their teachers. It's a conquest for them...
February 20th, 2007 at 1:36 pmWhy do conservatives bash public schools? Because the teachers and administrators are more often progressive and liberal people whose organizations back Democratic political candidates. They don't care about the education, they care about the power.
February 20th, 2007 at 1:36 pmI suggest you ask the poor Eastern Europeans how their education is paul.
Comment by ValiantVenusGrewFromUranus — February 20, 2007 @ 1:28 pm
Excellent post!
February 20th, 2007 at 1:40 pm#19 - Right on the nail. I couldn't say it better myself.
February 20th, 2007 at 1:42 pmPrivate schools can often restrict enrollment, including not accepting poor performing students or disruptive students. You assume that in a marketplace where more specializes schools can compete and make money by educating poor performing or disruptive students, that they will forego the opportunity? That's naive. Don't you also understand that if those student's needs were better served by profitable specialized schools, the dilemma of 'teaching to the lowest common denominator' of today's more generalized (one size fits all/yugo) schools; abates?
February 20th, 2007 at 1:42 pmThe Conservatives in charge of my state have made teachers unions illegal.
Georgia is less "educated" than all of the states with teacher's unions except California...
http://www.morganquitno.com/edrank.htm
February 20th, 2007 at 1:44 pmIf you want to KNOW the agenda of the NEA and many public school administrators, check out a little book called "None Dare Call it Treason" by John Stormer (1964). The agenda includes is subtle, steady and subversive. The book highlights the goals of the Left, using their own words with regard to: labor, education, religious institutions, the media, parental authority, etc. (After reading the book, I finally understand why the Left has adopted the "progressive" moniker.
February 20th, 2007 at 1:47 pmEveryone, be they parents, non-parents, religious or non-religious, has a stake in making sure our republic is an educated republic. Our economy, national defense, public safety, political system, industrial might, healthcare, scientific communities and high technology all depend on competent, educated people.
Instead of working to improve and maintain the educational system we have, in which everyone pools resources for the common good of a well-educated public, the conservative right wants to dismantle it altogether in favor of a system where presumably only those who can afford to educate their children may do so.
I wish I could have seen the rest of the interview, because I really want to see Boortz to cite evidence on how destructive to society our public education system has been. If teacher’s unions are more dangerous than Islamic terror, why hasn’t our entire social system broken down into complete, chaotic mayhem? The whole of America should resemble the streets of Baghdad or Pinoche-era Chile if Boortz’s assertion held any water.
Declaring education to be a privilege instead of a right, as the conservatives want to do, is the real danger to our social system. It’s not surprising, given their overall view that America is better off as a two-class system of haves and have nots.
The big question that conservatives need to answer is this: What kind of effects would a conservative, privilege-based education system have on literacy rates, our skilled labor, our economy, and our competitive edge in the world marketplace?
February 20th, 2007 at 1:48 pm[...] to last night on Sean Hannity’s Fox News program: SEAN HANNITY: Alright, let me ask you. Because, you — when you said about the Department of [...]
February 20th, 2007 at 1:48 pmLet me match up these two. Both pro public school, progressive posts. You still won't get it, but here goes.
Why do conservatives bash public schools? Because the teachers and administrators are more often progressive and liberal people whose organizations back Democratic political candidates.
paul darlin, The reason our public education system is failing, regardless of the mone spent, is because we have a cabal of corrupt dumb as dirt politicians running the show. These people in power do not like the reasoning process…the real process of education. They prefer the canned variety and they are not at all ( truly) concerned with our children. They are concerned with power. Hope that clears it up for you sweets.
You recognize the problem. You recognize the ideology that is responsible for the problem. But, when you realize the solution doesn't marry up with the progressive agenda, you resist it at all costs. In ten years and much more money, when you wonder why are schools are still failing, there's your answer.
February 20th, 2007 at 1:49 pm“None Dare Call it Treason†by John Stormer (1964).
Comment by valiant venus — February 20, 2007 @ 1:47 pm
I hate to break it to you - but this is 2007.
February 20th, 2007 at 1:50 pmIf you want to KNOW the agenda of the NEA and many public school administrators, check out a little book called “None Dare Call it Treason†by John Stormer (1964). Comment by valiant venus — February 20, 2007 @ 1:47 pm
I was expecting Ann Coulter's Anorexic shadow, and here you are!!! I suggest you check out a little book called Mein Kampf, as it will help explain to you where your values come from.
The agenda includes is subtle, steady and subversive. The book highlights the goals of the Left, using their own words with regard to: labor, education, religious institutions, the media, parental authority, etc. (After reading the book, I finally understand why the Left has adopted the “progressive†moniker. Comment by valiant venus — February 20, 2007 @ 1:47 pm
The agenda of Mein Kampf is anti-union, calls any unions, labor or free thinking 'subversive and subtle'. Yet you don't understand where your own ideology comes from! Amusing grasshopper! With such a big mouth, you'd think you'd find time to eat, and shut up more!
February 20th, 2007 at 1:54 pmYou recognize the problem. You recognize the ideology that is responsible for the problem. But, when you realize the solution doesn’t marry up with the progressive agenda, you resist it at all costs. In ten years and much more money, when you wonder why are schools are still failing, there’s your answer. Comment by paul — February 20, 2007 @ 1:49 pm
Because Bush is at the helm, and billions of dollars have gone to his brothers software company instead of solving the problem? I'm still waiting on your explanation for why private schools don't do better than public ones, or how the poor eastern europeans like their school?
What's wrong, that response wasn't in your copy-paste script?
February 20th, 2007 at 1:56 pmI hate to break it to you - but this is 2007.
Comment by unbelievable — February 20, 2007 @ 1:50 pm
Not for a regressive NAZI like Valiant Venus. She's still fighting the good NAZI fight against the commies! Poor Anorexic little tart.
February 20th, 2007 at 1:56 pmBut, when you realize the solution doesn’t marry up with the progressive agenda, you resist it at all costs.
The solution? That's a little arrogant considering you know nothing about the school system (you don't even have children enrolled in it).
There are always options - but they must be viable and realistic. Your solution is not. That, and no other reason, is why we reject it. Many of us have posted quite rational and logical explanations for why your way won't work. And instead of addressing those issues, you just start with the generic ad hominem attacks... Then you wonder why we just dismiss you...
In ten years and much more money, when you wonder why are schools are still failing, there’s your answer.
Comment by paul — February 20, 2007 @ 1:49 pm
Seriously - when no one's around, do you call yourself Thor or some other mythical god of something macjo sounding?
February 20th, 2007 at 1:58 pmSomething is going to happen to some far right retards and its going to be very funny to watch. How bout if the union leaders don't do what we tell them we kill them? or stick them in the electric chair. BZZZZZZZZZZZ!!
ha.. heh.....umm.
February 20th, 2007 at 1:59 pmunbelievable. When did Georgia dump the teacher's unions?
February 20th, 2007 at 2:00 pmComment by hacker bob — February 20, 2007 @ 11:53 am
Right. Heaven forbid kids graduate from High School knowing anything about social issues.
/sarc
February 20th, 2007 at 2:01 pmWhat’s wrong, that response wasn’t in your copy-paste script?
Comment by ValiantVenusGrewFromUranus — February 20, 2007 @ 1:56 pm
LOL
February 20th, 2007 at 2:02 pmI do not often watch Sham Hammity or FauxNews - I prefer my fiction packaged honestly - and did not see the episode described above. No doubt I missed something - I assume that the entire transcript was no provided in the above blog. Given those disclaimers, however, doesn't it seem as if these right-wing lunitics like Boobrtz are given carte blanche by FauxNews in particular; they are allowed to make any sort of outrageous nutball slander with absolutely no substantiation whatever and Sham, or Bull O'Really, just soberly nod their empty heads and if all the nonsense floating by were actually serious.
And so, I assume the Mr. Boortz was no different: he came on "Hammity and Combover" blather on about a bunch of ridiculous and malicious lies about American public education and offer not a single shread of fact in substantiation of his vicious nonsense. It is an article of faith among these so-called conservatives (and ersatz-christian theocrats like Robertson, Fartwell, et al) that Public Education is just pure evil. So a Neil Boobhrtz can come on the "Hammity and Combover Show" and demonize public education - and no one will offer debate, and everone will nod in dumb-ass agreement because Public Education is Evil is one of the mantras of the so-called conservative movement - no proof required, it is simply revealed wisdom.
Boortz was preaching to the choir.
February 20th, 2007 at 2:02 pmNot for a regressive NAZI like Valiant Venus. She’s still fighting the good NAZI fight against the commies! Poor Anorexic little tart.
Comment by ValiantVenusGrewFromUranus — February 20, 2007 @ 1:56 pm
If they all posted under the same moniker, I don't think I could tell them apart - they all say the same things they can't explain or defend...
I frequently wonder how they didn't "Darwin" themselves out of existence already...
February 20th, 2007 at 2:04 pmWhen did Georgia dump the teacher’s unions?
Comment by paul — February 20, 2007 @ 2:00 pm
I don't think they ever existed.
February 20th, 2007 at 2:06 pmHere's Steve Jobs (Apple), progressive guy on teachers unions:
http://www.dfw.com/mld/startelegram/news/state/16717129.htm
He makes the point better than I can do it.
February 20th, 2007 at 2:07 pmDo you believe in a level playing field?
Should the quality of education any given child receives be dependent upon his/her parent's wealth?
February 20th, 2007 at 2:08 pm"I hate to break it to you - but this is 2007."
I hate to break it to you but the campaign to "Progressive-ize" our schools pre-dates even YOU. The subversion started primarily in the 30's and 40's and has been "progressively" creeping along since. Can you spell t-o-o-l?
February 20th, 2007 at 2:08 pm#110 Aila??
February 20th, 2007 at 2:10 pmYou may have me mixed up, I never mentioned anything about my oldest???
Comment by valiant venus
The corruption of the republican party brought America to the brink of ruin before the New Deal kicked their asses and took their power (and gold) away for the common good of all Americans... not just the ones that "know somebody"...
February 20th, 2007 at 2:10 pmShould the quality of education any given child receives be dependent upon his/her parent’s wealth?
Comment by Briseadh na Faire — February 20, 2007 @ 2:08 pm
To elitists, like Micheal, and Mighty Aphrodite/Valiant Venus it should. I have long suspected much of their support for Bush comes from him being from a wealthy family, that dates back several generations. They would like to see a return to the feudal system. The peons laboring for the lords.
February 20th, 2007 at 2:13 pmVV - have you also read "None dare call it conspiracy" By Gary Davis?
February 20th, 2007 at 2:14 pm[...] A link to the video of the show can be found here. [...]
February 20th, 2007 at 2:14 pmI hate to break it to you but the campaign to “Progressive-ize†our schools pre-dates even YOU.
How could I forget what a dinosaur you are MA...
Or how much you hate progress. If it were up to you, we'd all still be living in the 1500's...
The subversion started primarily in the 30’s and 40’s and has been “progressively†creeping along since.
Do you visit doctors? Take medicine? Drive in a car?
Clearly you use a computer....
Who do you think you should be thanking for that progress? Hmmm?
You can't use the results of progress and then bash the fact it that was a result of progressive thinking... Hello? Anyone home?
Can you spell t-o-o-l?
Comment by valiant venus — February 20, 2007 @ 2:08 pm
Sure...
v-a-l-i-a-n-t v-e-n-u-s
February 20th, 2007 at 2:14 pmIf teachers were really as good as some of the posts here claim, the NEA would not be afraid of a little competition. In fact, they would welcome it as a way to demonstrate the quality that they bring to the system.
But that's not what they are about. They (like all unions) are about protecting the jobs of the worst performers to the detriment of the product.
That said, I do agree with the posts that lay some of the blame on the heads of the parents. Kids need more direction and guidance at home. Asking teachers to act as surrogate parents is crazy.
February 20th, 2007 at 2:17 pmTry this one:
http://www.ipoddailynews.com/index.php/ipoddailynews/comments/12662/
February 20th, 2007 at 2:19 pmI guess we know what Republicans think of the working class. Pretty sad.
February 20th, 2007 at 2:22 pmThen you wonder why we just dismiss you…
Save some dismissiveness for Steve Jobs. I mean, the arrogance. What would he know about cultivating a productive workforce? If I was a progressive, I would cast my lot with 'a cabal of corrupt dumb as dirt politicians running the show' every time.
You'd probably have alot more to offer if you would dare to venture outside the 'progressive' agenda on occassion.
February 20th, 2007 at 2:27 pmThis site is really interesting. It has all kinds of comparisions on the education systems in the world:
http://www.nationmaster.com/cat/edu-education
The United States ranks:
#15 in Reading literacy
#14 in Science literacy
#18 in Mathematical literacy
Canada was near the top in every case. They have a PUBLIC education system - so that totally refutes Paul's solution of privatization...
February 20th, 2007 at 2:29 pmPaul,
I agree that choices are the answer, but the free market is not in my opinion. It would be nice to create schooling, that is more tailored to individual learning style, and to encourage those who want to learn. The current public school system is imperfect, but it needs to be changed, not destroyed. I wonder at people like you. Who want to knock down everything, just because it isn't 100% perfect.
February 20th, 2007 at 2:29 pmSorry, RUcerious, that was hacker bob.
February 20th, 2007 at 2:29 pmif it's true that the NEA is bad for students, then the AMA is bad for the patients of doctors, the Bar Association is bad for the clients of attorneys, etc.
Unions are professional associations that practicioners of a certain trade/craft/profession belong to. If we're going to say Teachers and Plumbers shouldn't have/don't need them, then we'd better apply that very same thinking to Doctors, Lawyers, Architects, Engineers, Police and Firemen, etc.
I've never given a flyin' fk what Steve Jobs thinks about anything, let alone Teachers and unions - he's pissed because his computers are too goddamned expensive to have in every classroom in the country. Anti-union is anti-working people, anti-democratic, and anti-american.
Every argument ever lodged against unions is equally applicable to professional associations and corporate boards, so you union-bashers should figure out how to balance your beef and indict ALL the guilty parties, not just those the people with the ring through your nose told you to.
i see virulent vagina had the "balls" to show up and carp about this - hey v v , we miss you over on the neglected vets thread...
paul - put your f'ing kids in private school and shut up about the school my kids go to. don't like paying taxes to support public schools? get a job that pays less, and you won't have to.
February 20th, 2007 at 2:31 pmBut that’s not what they are about. They (like all unions) are about protecting the jobs of the worst performers to the detriment of the product.
Comment by Cynicon Implant
If a union is corrupt that is what happens. If a union is not corrupt then it is to keep employees who have little power from being blamed for company failures or being squeezed to accept unacceptable pay for the work done... which is exactly what non-union people deal with all the time.
February 20th, 2007 at 2:31 pmYou also fund the fire department, police department, libraries, parks, roads, and more with your taxes. If you don't drive, haven't had your house broken into, haven't needed to have a fire extinguished, don't read, and don't want to play frisbee or walk your dog at the park, should you not pay those taxes too?
In the United States we have "commons" which are services that are provided by the government that we may or may not use, but are there if we need them.
I don't have children and do not plan to, yet I pay the same taxes towards schools too. That's fine with me because I feel the public school system is important for society, even if it isn't important for me.
I want the government to take care of certain things, despite the faults. They can be fixed. A private company will only do what is required to turn a profit. And those that cannot afford it will get a shoddy education, or no education at all.
It can be a good system, it just needs some TLC.
Imagine the schools we'd have if only 10% of the Iraq budget was spent on them.......
February 20th, 2007 at 2:32 pmAsking teachers to act as surrogate parents is crazy.
Comment by Cynicon Implant — February 20, 2007 @ 2:17 pm
I never thought you'd break with party rank and admit that...
I actually had a parent ask me if I'd instructed his 17 year old son on properly using a hot glue gun after his son purposefully burned another student... The guy was looking for any means possible to blame me for his son's bad judgment and not his son...
February 20th, 2007 at 2:33 pmSave some dismissiveness for Steve Jobs.
He's not here. I'm not much into one way dialog...
I mean, the arrogance. What would he know about cultivating a productive workforce? If I was a progressive, I would cast my lot with ‘a cabal of corrupt dumb as dirt politicians running the show’ every time.
One person's success is not automatically a recipe for everyone else!
And as I keep pointing out - you don't know anything about the public school system. Refering to 'higher authority' is a cop out. Go to a Board meeting or two and develop your own opinions...
You’d probably have alot more to offer if you would dare to venture outside the ‘progressive’ agenda on occassion.
Comment by paul — February 20, 2007 @ 2:27 pm
How cliche... Another baseless ad hominem. The left doesn't have an agenda. Maybe we agree on certain things, but it's only because we've come to the same place from experience. Unlike your side, we can each, in our own words, explain ourselves. That's the difference between us. We know why we think what we do - and therefore don't need an agenda...
And,in case you miss it, when we do disagree with one another, it generally is based on facts and not emotions...
February 20th, 2007 at 2:40 pmProportion of 18 year olds in secondary education by country
#1 Sweden: 91%
February 20th, 2007 at 2:41 pm#2 Finland: 87%
#3 Norway: 86%
#4 Germany: 83%
#5 Switzerland: 78%
#6 Poland: 76%
#7 Denmark: 76%
#8 Luxembourg: 70%
#9 Iceland: 68%
#10 Italy: 63%
#11 Netherlands: 61%
#12 France: 56%
#13 Hungary: 55%
#14 Czech Republic: 54%
#15 Portugal: 54%
#16 Belgium: 44%
#17 Austria: 43%
#18 Tunisia: 42%
#19 Australia: 38%
#20 Spain: 38%
#21 Thailand: 34%
#22 United Kingdom: 32%
#23 New Zealand: 28%
#24 Ireland: 27%
#25 United States: 24%
#26 Mexico: 16%
Every argument/critique ever lodged against unions is equally applicable to professional associations and corporate boards, so you union-bashers should figure out how to balance your beef and indict ALL the guilty parties.
jfc! you'd think the NEA was getting tribal gambling $ from Jack Abramoff or something....OH! that's right - it's the Republican'ts and CON-swervatives that have made graft the biggest growth industry in the US......
y'all republican'ts and con-swervatives can just go ahead and keep your opinions to yourselves for a while.....(because all your credibility got "spent" by your pal Dubbie, as part of his "political capital" - if you have a problem with that, take it up with him)
February 20th, 2007 at 2:44 pmImagine the schools we’d have if only 10% of the Iraq budget was spent on them…….
Comment by Parrotlover77 — February 20, 2007 @ 2:32 pm
I'd take my kids on real field trips to visit other places. meet other people not like them,and see that it's a small world with many ways.
That would be awesome!
February 20th, 2007 at 2:45 pmRight. Heaven forbid kids graduate from High School knowing anything about social issues.
/sarc
Comment by Briseadh na Faire — February 20, 2007 @ 2:01 pm
Sorry, I would rather have my child graduate with a functional understanding of calculus. I will teach my child why "Heather has Two Mommy's".
How about if we let teachers educate and parents handle the moral stuff?
February 20th, 2007 at 2:45 pmI hate to break it to you but the campaign to “Progressive-ize†our schools pre-dates even YOU. Comment by valiant venus — February 20, 2007 @ 2:08 pm
I hate to break it to you but the campaign to 'Private-ize' our schools pre-dates even YOU, child of Hitler.
The subversion started primarily in the 30’s and 40’s and has been “progressively†creeping along since. Can you spell t-o-o-l? Comment by valiant venus — February 20, 2007 @ 2:08 pm
Funny you mention the 30's and 40's, when you recycle your old Mein Kampf talking points, Anorexia girl!
February 20th, 2007 at 2:46 pmSorry, I would rather have my child graduate with a functional understanding of calculus. I will teach my child why “Heather has Two Mommy’sâ€. Comment by hacker bob — February 20, 2007 @ 2:45 pm
Then don't send them to a Conservative Christian private school. The US Government published study last years show they stink at math! Let me guess, that was where you went to school?
How about if we let teachers educate and parents handle the moral stuff? Comment by hacker bob — February 20, 2007 @ 2:45 pm
Then maybe you should complain about Conservatives teaching Christianity, and making death threats to students that complain and report it.
February 20th, 2007 at 2:50 pmOh, and paul, I'm still waiting for you to list one of the Eastern European countries you believe is a model of the US. Care to list just one?
February 20th, 2007 at 2:50 pmHow about if we let teachers educate and parents handle the moral stuff?
Comment by hacker bob — February 20, 2007 @ 2:45 pm
That's ridiculous and impossible.
What would you have me do when a kid makes a racist or anti-gay slur in my class? Ignore it? Tolerate it because parents are the ones teaching them that crap in the first place? Screw that. I teach them why that kind of unethical behavior is not acceptable in a civilized society.
February 20th, 2007 at 2:51 pmAnother point Paul,
typically home schooled children are still watched over by the local school board, and tested etc, to insure that they are indeed learning. So that 10k in taxes, does indeed benefit you to a certain extent. It may be that others are profiting a fair bit more then your children, but you are still gaining some benefit.
February 20th, 2007 at 2:51 pmSo hacker bob, can we guess you're opposed to the complete balls out effort by conservatives to teach Christian Creationism in school? Or are your morals 'relative' to the particular religious values you want taught? If you CONs don't want morals and religion taught in school, why does O'Reilly whine about the war on Christmas in public schools every year?
Sorry sport, but you guys are raging hypocrites.
February 20th, 2007 at 2:52 pmWell, we might as well say it...
FOX NEWS IS THE METATRON FOR THE ANTICHRIST.
February 20th, 2007 at 2:58 pmValiant. I made a point that Eastern Europeans (immigrants) I have met didn't appreciate communism. Those people, who have had real day to day experience with government limiting their choice and controlling their lives, seem to be the most appreciative of the free market that most here take for granted.
With all due respect, I don't know what you're talking about.
February 20th, 2007 at 2:58 pmIf you CONs don’t want morals and religion taught in school, why does O’Reilly whine about the war on Christmas in public schools every year?
Comment by ValiantVenusGrewFromUranus — February 20, 2007 @ 2:52 pm
Touche.
They want the double standard.
They'd freak out if they knew how non-religious many of the kids today really are. Ever since one asked me if I was an Atheist and I casually told him I was, a number of my students have admitted that they are. And I live in the Bible Belt...
February 20th, 2007 at 3:01 pm#151
February 20th, 2007 at 3:03 pmHere's an enormous A M E N!
Valiant. I made a point that Eastern Europeans (immigrants) I have met didn’t appreciate communism. Those people, who have had real day to day experience with government limiting their choice and controlling their lives, seem to be the most appreciative of the free market that most here take for granted.
With all due respect, I don’t know what you’re talking about.
Comment by paul — February 20, 2007 @ 2:58 pm
Yet that wasn't the claim you made. You claimed that Eastern Europeans now have free market schools, and they were better than the US.
The US doesn't limit your choice, you can go to a private school now. Or had that fact escaped you?
You don't know what I'm talking about?
February 20th, 2007 at 3:03 pmComment by unbelievable — February 20, 2007 @ 2:51 pm
Yes, teach them the behavior is unacceptable in public. But it is not the job of the schools to teach "it's ok to be gay". That is a job of parents. If you teach it ok to be gay, you have to teach it's ok to be straight, it's ok to be bi, it's ok to be abstinent. Besides that, you are teaching your OPINION, and some people have a different opinion. You do not get paid for your opinion.
Comment by ValiantVenusGrewFromUranus — February 20, 2007 @ 2:52 pm
If you can teach evolution, you should also teach creation as a possibility. Not one, but both. When my kids were going to schools off base, they were taught about Kwanza and Hanukkah, but not Christmas. What makes the first two more valuable than the third?
If you teach about one, you should teach about all. Or do not teach about any.
Welcome to the "Fairness Doctrine".
February 20th, 2007 at 3:04 pmWith all due respect, I don’t know what you’re talking about.
Comment by paul — February 20, 2007 @ 2:58 pm
You don't? The topic was public versus private education, and you said:
Ask eastern Europeans how good the alternative is.
Comment by paul — February 20, 2007 @ 1:08 pm
Which alternative paul? Which Eastern European nation only has private schools, so we can ask them?
February 20th, 2007 at 3:04 pmEver since one asked me if I was an Atheist and I casually told him I was, a number of my students have admitted that they are. And I live in the Bible Belt… Comment by unbelievable — February 20, 2007 @ 3:01 pm
Growing up with a brain in the bible belt is one of the best inducements to becoming an Atheist you can find! ;)
That lunatic teacher told her students that if they weren't a Christian they deserved Hell, and that Noah had Dinosaurs on the Ark!!
BWWAHAHAHAHA!!!! You can't make this shiiet up!
February 20th, 2007 at 3:07 pmy paul - the free markets in former soviet bloc countries now mean you can easily obtain machine guns, landmines, heroin, and 13 year old prostitutes, and those people are LOVING it!!!!! really, just ask'em....(but don't ask those that live in towns where there are no dogs (those are the places where the people ate all the dogs because their "markets" were "free" of inventory))
February 20th, 2007 at 3:08 pmYet that wasn’t the claim you made. You claimed that Eastern Europeans now have free market schools, and they were better than the US.
Comment by ValiantVenusGrewFromUranus — February 20, 2007 @ 3:03 pm
Not according to any of the UNESCO stats I've searched on Google...
The best education systems are public education systems in Western Europe... And Japan, New Zealand and Canada.
February 20th, 2007 at 3:09 pmIf you can teach evolution, you should also teach creation as a possibility. Comment by hacker bob — February 20, 2007 @ 3:04 pm
One is science, the other is religion. You just complained that children should be taught 'morals' at home - and religious mythology is moral, not scientific material.
Not one, but both. Comment by hacker bob — February 20, 2007 @ 3:04 pm
Thanks for proving that your claim about wanting 'morality' out of schools was hypocritical, and only limited to the morals you disagree with, like tolerance.
When my kids were going to schools off base, they were taught about Kwanza and Hanukkah, but not Christmas. Comment by hacker bob — February 20, 2007 @ 3:04 pm
Prove that O'Reilly.
What makes the first two more valuable than the third? Comment by hacker bob — February 20, 2007 @ 3:04 pm
None of them should be taught in school, fool.
If you teach about one, you should teach about all. Or do not teach about any. Comment by hacker bob — February 20, 2007 @ 3:04 pm
Says the fool that can't tell the difference between science and religion.
Welcome to the “Fairness Doctrineâ€. Comment by hacker bob — February 20, 2007 @ 3:04 pm
Welcome to the Foolish Doctrine of Conservative Hypocrisy. You claim you want religion out of schools, but all you want is the religion and morality of others out of schools so you can teach your own. You can't even tell the difference between a scientific theory and religion! You people are too stupid to even try to educate, you're the problem.
February 20th, 2007 at 3:12 pmunbelievable. you make the point that the U.S. is well below many other developed nations.
I'm assuming, because you make that point (that I agree with) the status quo is unacceptable to you.
Another progressive on this thread has made this point:
Why do conservatives bash public schools? Because the teachers and administrators are more often progressive and liberal people whose organizations back Democratic political candidates.
I assume you are reasonable enough to admit that teachers and administrators are generally liberal and they get their support from Democrats.
Forget about disparaging me for a moment. Reconcile this for me. You see the system as failing. Jobs (and almost everyone else) recognizes that it's not a problem of more money. You understand the system is and has been run by liberals. You don't advocate the status quo. Although you agree the current system isn't working, you won't consider privatization, or vouchers, or choice. What is it that you do advocate?
I don't think you can answer without attacking the messenger. Let's see.
February 20th, 2007 at 3:13 pmWelcome to the “Fairness Doctrineâ€.
Comment by hacker bob — February 20, 2007 @ 3:04 pm
So then why do you want to limit teaching 'Heather has two mommies'. After all, there are churches that believe and teach this is normal and OK. According to your Fairness Doctrine, that should be fine - right?
Hypocrite.
February 20th, 2007 at 3:13 pmYes, teach them the behavior is unacceptable in public. But it is not the job of the schools to teach “it’s ok to be gayâ€. That is a job of parents. If you teach it ok to be gay, you have to teach it’s ok to be straight, it’s ok to be bi, it’s ok to be abstinent. Besides that, you are teaching your OPINION, and some people have a different opinion. You do not get paid for your opinion.
It is okay to be whomever they are. That's not an opinion.
I get paid to help prepare them for the real world (that's what teaching is really about). Without self-esteem that they are okay as they are, they won't be prepared.
I tell them all the time that they are great - even without whiter teeth, perfect skin and the ability to stay seated for 1.5 hours consecutively... And like it or not - that is the biggest part of my job. Because if they are happy with themselves, as they are, they don't go around telling racial jokes. It's a fact.
If you teach about one, you should teach about all. Or do not teach about any.
Comment by hacker bob — February 20, 2007 @ 3:04 pm
ID is NOT Science on any level and should NOT be taught alongside it in any classroom.
I'm all for teaching an elective class on religion. It was elective for me in college and I took 'Philosophy'. One of the better elective classes I ever took...
February 20th, 2007 at 3:16 pmParrotlover77. Good point. Our property taxes are broken down on where the funds go. Education is about 80%. I'll concede $2,000. I would submit that $8,000 a year is alot of money to have you kids tested once a year.
February 20th, 2007 at 3:16 pmtom baker. After 80 years of communism, it's going to take free markets a while to undue the damage. Nice try, though.
February 20th, 2007 at 3:19 pmtom baker. After 80 years of communism, it’s going to take free markets a while to undue the damage. Nice try, though. Comment by paul — February 20, 2007 @ 3:19 pm
Funny, that's what people argue about the US (free market) health system compared to the rest of the world's public run systems.
You also do realize don't you paul, that the eastern block wasn't 'communistic', it was totalitarian with more of Corporatist (Fascist) system of economics. Right?
Oh wait, you didn't know that!
February 20th, 2007 at 3:22 pmGrowing up with a brain in the bible belt is one of the best inducements to becoming an Atheist you can find! ;)
You're right. They see the consequences of being a hypocritical Jesus Freak and they run...
That lunatic teacher told her students that if they weren’t a Christian they deserved Hell, and that Noah had Dinosaurs on the Ark!!
Comment by ValiantVenusGrewFromUranus — February 20, 2007 @ 3:07 pm
That's insane. But I'd bet she gets to keep her job - just like this one Catholic zealot in our system who says similar things.
A floating ark with dinosaurs in it? Desperate.
February 20th, 2007 at 3:23 pmOur property taxes are broken down on where the funds go. Education is about 80%. I’ll concede $2,000. I would submit that $8,000 a year is alot of money to have you kids tested once a year. Comment by paul — February 20, 2007 @ 3:16 pm
What state are you in? Do you have local and state property taxes? That sounds more like those 'statistics' you whack jobs pull out of your butts because you don't know anything about the topic.
Prove that 80% of your property taxes go to education.
February 20th, 2007 at 3:24 pmtom baker. After 80 years of communism, it’s going to take free markets a while to undue the damage. Nice try, though. Comment by paul — February 20, 2007 @ 3:19 pm
So in reality, this is an admission on your part your previous claim were a lie about eastern block education systems.
Thanks for admitting you're a liar - was that so hard paul? It's the first step to your recovery from the mental illness known as conservatism.
February 20th, 2007 at 3:25 pmVariant.
Yet that wasn’t the claim you made. You claimed that Eastern Europeans now have free market schools, and they were better than the US.
Comment by ValiantVenusGrewFromUranus
Here's my quote: Free markets are not evil, despite what you have been told. Ask eastern Europeans how good the alternative is.
I was describing free markets, not free market schools. Does it say schools in there?
I've got to move on, but a response like "my bad" or "I stand corrected" would be reasonable.
February 20th, 2007 at 3:25 pmun - isn't that the ark where they shot Jurassic diner?
February 20th, 2007 at 3:30 pmNow, while I didn't see the whole show and just a video clip here, you do need to cut Hannity some slack. To me, he appeared to be sarcastic with crazy anti-teachers guy. I don't think he was agreeing at all but really just egging on nut-job dude.
But you're right about one thing....that guy needs help.
February 20th, 2007 at 3:31 pmunbelievable.
Forget about disparaging me for a moment. Reconcile this for me. You see the system as failing. Jobs (and almost everyone else) recognizes that it’s not a problem of more money. You understand the system is and has been run by liberals. You don’t advocate the status quo. Although you agree the current system isn’t working, you won’t consider privatization, or vouchers, or choice. What is it that you do advocate?
February 20th, 2007 at 3:31 pmI was describing free markets, not free market schools. Does it say schools in there?
I’ve got to move on, but a response like “my bad†or “I stand corrected†would be reasonable.
Comment by paul — February 20, 2007 @ 3:25 pm
Yet the entire post, of which this is one excerpt, was on free market schools. I'd happily accept your apology, that you stand corrected in falsely implying that these eastern block nations prefer free market schools. As that's your personal opinion, and not something that you have facts to back up.
You lied, I caught you, but you're too cowardly, insecure and such a piss poor debater you won't admit it.
Now as for your whining about spending, the US is #21 in spending per GDP on students. Maybe that's why we're also ranked at about the same levels on education?
You people really do define the DUH factor in this country.
February 20th, 2007 at 3:33 pmOur property taxes are broken down on where the funds go. Education is about 80%. I’ll concede $2,000. I would submit that $8,000 a year is alot of money to have you kids tested once a year.
Comment by paul — February 20, 2007 @ 3:16 pm
I wonder how many of those property taxes are funneled really to pay for the biggest military in the world, bigger than the sum of the rest of the wolrd's ones combined.
February 20th, 2007 at 3:34 pmAlthough you agree the current system isn’t working, you won’t consider privatization, or vouchers, or choice. What is it that you do advocate? Comment by paul — February 20, 2007 @ 3:31 pm
Easy, fund the disparity in poor schools. The statistics are brought down, because local communities must come up with the money to fund their own schools properly. Poor communities have poor schools, because they are not fully funded.
People that talk about more money not being the problem are somewhat right, because many schools have more money than they need. The problem is that the money isn't going to the schools that need it the most!
The problem, fund all schools, and require equal funding at the federal level. One again, you define the DUH factor in this country.
You people are too stupid to even discern basic facts about any situation you're faced with. You're a great example of why schools should be fully funded - to avoid making more idiots like yourself.
February 20th, 2007 at 3:36 pmCome on Paul, where do you live? I can readily check where your property taxes are going. Tell me what community you're in.
February 20th, 2007 at 3:36 pmSpending per GDP, you'll find it here.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/edu_spe_per_pri_sch_stu_pergdp-per-primary-school-student-gdp
February 20th, 2007 at 3:37 pmA floating ark with dinosaurs in it? Desperate.
Comment by unbelievable — February 20, 2007 @ 3:23 pm
Yeah I know, when you consider the huge number of Dinosaur species we know about, that the Bible is very explicit about the number of males/females that were taken as adult mates, this whole thing shows exactly how stupid and insane these people are. You wouldn't fit a single Supersaurus (130ft in length), let alone a male and his females.
These people are complete lunatics.
February 20th, 2007 at 3:40 pmI assume you are reasonable enough to admit that teachers and administrators are generally liberal and they get their support from Democrats.
You can't say that broadly. It's ridiculous. My school system is in a very red county in a very red state. We get our support from Republicans mostly, and therefore a lot of principals and board members are conservative - and they are the ones that tell mostly liberal teachers how to act. We aren't autonomous you know. In fact, I'm very liberal for my school system - so I'd have to disagree with you that you can't make that general statement.
What is it that you do advocate?
Firstly, I disagree with your assessment that it's a liberal system run by liberals.
Non-private colleges and universities are a liberal system run by mostly liberals - and in that regard the US ranks first across the board. We have the best public universities in the world. Interesting huh?
So, what do they do? They raise the bar. No standardized testing. Very limited buracracy. No micromanaging of professors. Students are held responsible for their education. The classes are challenging. Students get to pick their subjects and professors.
I think the K-5 primary system is pretty good. Middle school becomes a regurgitation of elementary school and high school is a regurgitation of that. Instead of fear of knowledge, we need to change the format or the classroom to one of exploration where the student is responsible for learning and the student, not the teacher, is doing the learning.
When school becomes relevent - you'll see a huge change in the results. And this isn't just theory. It's how I've run my classroom. I have no real discipline problems. I have a very low absentee rate. Most of my students have an 85 average or better this semester. I have several that hang out in my classroom between classes and will sometimes skip another class to stay in my room and work on their projects. Their parents don't complain about me. And the students' main complaint is that class goes by too fast...
I don’t think you can answer without attacking the messenger. Let’s see.
Comment by paul — February 20, 2007 @ 3:13 pm
Your the one who attacks people. Once you do, you deserve any snide comments you get in return.
February 20th, 2007 at 3:41 pmun - isn’t that the ark where they shot Jurassic diner?
Comment by RUCerious — February 20, 2007 @ 3:30 pm
You're hilarious... :)
February 20th, 2007 at 3:46 pmNow as for your whining about spending, the US is #21 in spending per GDP on students. Maybe that’s why we’re also ranked at about the same levels on education?
Comment by ValiantVenusGrewFromUranus — February 20, 2007 @ 3:33 pm
Also explains why we're dropping in rank every year since BushCo occupied the White House... We used to be #1 in those areas...
Silly GOPers will never understand cause and effect.
February 20th, 2007 at 3:49 pmYou wouldn’t fit a single Supersaurus (130ft in length), let alone a male and his females.
I'd love to calculate that... because I know that structurally - the ark is not possible - especially considering it was said to be made from wood.
There's not a single wooden skyscraper in the world for several pretty big reasons... Mainly - they don't make trees big enough. LOL
These people are complete lunatics.
Comment by ValiantVenusGrewFromUranus — February 20, 2007 @ 3:40 pm
That's sugar coating it... :)
February 20th, 2007 at 3:54 pmThis has probably already been said, so sorry for the repeat:
Neal Boortz is a jackass.
February 20th, 2007 at 4:00 pmcause and effect is too tough.....liberals started it.....
i just want to believe what the salesmen tell me - it all sounds so cool when they talk about it.....
sheesh!
February 20th, 2007 at 4:07 pm#195 ~
February 20th, 2007 at 4:17 pmnow the bad news.
I'm here all week!
unbelieveable: Firstly, I disagree with your assessment that it’s a liberal system run by liberals.
That's not my assessment, but PLCs
Why do conservatives bash public schools? Because the teachers and administrators are more often progressive and liberal people whose organizations back Democratic political candidates. They don’t care about the education, they care about the power.
Comment by PatrioticLiberalChristian(PLC) — February 20, 2007 @ 1:36 pm
February 20th, 2007 at 4:37 pmThere's no way an ark could float with dinosaurs in it, they are too heavy. Only the swimming dinosaurs made it.
And I am a dumbass.
February 20th, 2007 at 4:40 pmI called for conservatives to take jobs in the education system,
**more big ass crickets screaming**
See.
February 20th, 2007 at 4:42 pmHow come Paul does not want to be a teacher and offset the stuff he has a problem with?
How come conservatives don't want to take a tough job with average pay?
How come conservatives don't want to take a job where critical thinking and facts are involved?
How come conservatives don't want to take a job promoting free thinking?
February 20th, 2007 at 4:45 pmThat’s not my assessment, but PLCs
Comment by paul — February 20, 2007 @ 4:37 pm
Still waiting for you to respond to all of the facts I posted, and waiting for you to answer the question of what community you live in.
Why do you hate america so much paul?
February 20th, 2007 at 4:46 pmValiant. Maybe, I'm presumming too much when I believe that most people here understand that one sentence contains a complete idea. You're obviously not seeing it. I guess it's possible, I need to dumb it down. But here's the whole exchange in context. I leave it up to others to decide it you can reasonably call me a liar. (It does make it more understandable with that logic, how you can consider Bush a liar).
Education is not a “productâ€, it is an obligation to our children.
At a private school, education is a product.
Let me ask you this. If you could educate you kid at a private school without having to pay any more for it, would you?
The education is better, because the administrators have to perform to meet enrollment.
Free markets are not evil, despite what you have been told. Ask eastern Europeans how good the alternative is.
Comment by paul — February 20, 2007 @ 1:08 pm
I was describing free markets, not free market schools. Does it say schools in there?
I’ve got to move on, but a response like “my bad†or “I stand corrected†would be reasonable.
Comment by paul — February 20, 2007 @ 3:25 pm
Yet the entire post, of which this is one excerpt, was on free market schools. I’d happily accept your apology, that you stand corrected in falsely implying that these eastern block nations prefer free market schools. As that’s your personal opinion, and not something that you have facts to back up.
You lied, I caught you, but you’re too cowardly, insecure and such a piss poor debater you won’t admit it.
Now as for your whining about spending, the US is #21 in spending per GDP on students. Maybe that’s why we’re also ranked at about the same levels on education?
You people really do define the DUH factor in this country.
Comment by ValiantVenusGrewFromUranus — February 20, 2007 @ 3:33 pm
February 20th, 2007 at 4:47 pmFor Paul and anyone else who continues to parrot the Liberal are this or liberals are that tired old crap...From where you sit and from where the republican party sits with their values and their beliefs, everyone is liberal. Over the last 20 years or so the republican party has pulled their base further and further to the right. Most people view themselves as being centrist in nature because most people like to belong most people think that they are typical and think like everyone else. Over the last 20 years or so the right wing media machine has barraged the faithful with propaganda which makes them feel as though they are the middle and that anyone to their left is an extreme liberal. I saw an interview with Rupert Murdoch recently and he pretty much said that he thinks he is fair and unbiased with what he presents. So by that statement he is implying that he presents news and programming with a neutral point of view. When you view the world in such a manner most of what else is out there appears to be extremist. Of course Fox and most of the right wing media/propaganda machine is far from neutral, it is far from centrist. However they have sold themselves as being the common view or being centrist so their followers believe they are centrist also. Even those who think they are on the right but not so far out there do not realize how far right the right has gone. So from that view point everything appears to be liberal. Remember being liberal has never had a bad connotation until the last 20 years or so and it gained that bad word connotation from the right wing media/propaganda machine.
I mention this because Dale has on more than one occasion talked about the liberal nature of teachers as if this is a bad thing. Of course apparently only public school teachers are liberal while private school teachers are I'm guessing good conservatives? So with Dale constantly pushing the private is better than public school issue he is implying that one big thing for him is to get the liberalness out of our education system. Sadly though he has no clue that he is so far right that he can't even see the middle anymore. When I was a kid the political spectrum when measured and plotted, based on population was shaped like a classic bell curve, a little flatter than classic maybe. With the 30% on the right, 30 on the left and 40 in the middle.. I think the left and middle are largely as they were back then, probably shifted more rightward, but essentially intact, however I think the right leg of the spectrum has formed a second bell curve further to the right of the mainstream. What Dale and others of the "I don't know why they support republicans but they do" right wing think of private schools is irrelevant. If the republican party got their way the public school system in our country would be privatized. I am assuming the public school teachers would all be sent to re-education camps to make them fit for private school service. Then you know what would happen? The kids who now go to private school would still go to the same schools with the same teachers and achieve the same results while maintaining their separation from the filthy masses. Those kids and families would still go to more exclusive schools and the rest of the kids would go to lesser quality or less desirable schools. The kids who go to public schools now would get the choice of the new private schools but still not the most exclusive, (the Bush's would still go to Andover the Kennedy's to their private school s and the rest of us fend for ourselves) and the same kids who did not succeed in public schools would also not succeed in the new private schools because they would still have the same baggage, be it bad parenting, or what have you. However I think they could do worse, because the private schools would not have the frills of public schools like behavior counselors etc... because there is less profitability in those area's than there is in the bread and butter. Then what happens? If it is private and a certain amount of money is required to go to school, how do the poor go? If their money goes mainly to food/shelter and clothing and they have none left for school, do those kids get left out? What then? Republicans usually say let them go and fend for themselves. I have this scary vision of America if the right wing gets their way on everything, it is one which resembles countries of the mid east with beggars in the streets fending for themselves in far greater numbers than we have here, while the ruling elite do all they can to separate themselves from the masses.
Another thing brought up here in regards to private vs. public schools is morals/evolution/religion etc... The right seems to think that teaching science, be it evolution, global warming, sex education, anything they don't agree with is akin to teaching morals. Science is not moral or immoral, science just is. How people use it is where the problem comes in. Teaching evolution is simply teaching what amounts to fact, now those facts do not align with creationism, which is religion. And that is where the parents at home teach their children about their personal beliefs. Simply exposing them to science is not condemning shunning or denigrating the religion as some on the right would have you believe. It is simply presenting generally accepted scientific fact. Ditto for global warming. Whereas you can not discuss religion in school, one because the founders specifically did not want religion on the public arena on the public dollar (read Madison if you don't believe me). Religion ibis all about beliefs an faith, and we all have our different beliefs. Catholics are not the same as Baptists or Lutherans or Episcopalians, or Methodists, or any other denomination of Christianity, nor are they the same as the various sects of Judaism, Islam, Hinduism etc... Point being that there are many many accepted religions and versions of those religions. Like I said science is science if you don't believe it fine, but it is what is and that is simply science it is not a liberal plot to undermine society and conservative values, whatever those may be.
By the way, what are those values? What I see is greed. lust for power, chasing little boys, hypocrisy, advocating the assassination of liberals, advocating the destruction of non-Christian religions (both Anne coulter) lying, cheating to win, proclaiming a distrust of anything labeled Bill of rights?, waging war as the only answer, bearing false witness against they neighbor (WMD's anyone?), putting money and profit before people etc... I honestly do not understand what exactly conservative values are. Conservatives talk about them all the time as if they have a monopoly on values, however their actions do not bear out their stated beliefs. For instance they talk about love of country and love of the constitution, then they so easily surrender parts of the constitution with a glib comment such as "the constitution is not a suicide pact, and they seem to hate our country so much that they want to reform it in their own image which is so far from what the founders intended it is not even fun to mock anymore. Can you imagine how many of these thugs would be investigated and in prison if the legal system were truly as liberal as the right claims it to be? Most judges now serving were appointed by Reagan, Bush I and Bush II. The numbers far out strip those appointed by Clinton. I am waiting for one courageous prosecutor to put all the pieces of the puzzle together and apply the RICO statutes to the republican party.
February 20th, 2007 at 4:53 pmIt is okay to be whomever they are. That’s not an opinion.
Unbe, do you teach that it is OK for them to be racist? After all, that may be who they are.
February 20th, 2007 at 4:57 pmSo then why do you want to limit teaching ‘Heather has two mommies’. After all, there are churches that believe and teach this is normal and OK. According to your Fairness Doctrine, that should be fine - right?
Hypocrite.
Comment by ValiantVenusGrewFromUranus — February 20, 2007 @ 3:13 pm
If you are willing to have students taught "Heather has two mommie's" are you also willing to have someone teach "It is wrong for Heather to has Two mommie's"?
IF not, you are the hypocrite.
February 20th, 2007 at 5:00 pmComment by ValiantVenusGrewFromUranus — February 20, 2007 @ 3:12 pm
BTW, Kwanza is not religiously based. It is culturally based. But I agree, none should be taught. Also, check the curiculum for Union Schools in Tulsa, OK. That is where 2 of th ethree were taught.
February 20th, 2007 at 5:03 pmFirst we had this great, awesome and critical post:
But… when looking around at the US and then other countries - we don’t look too good, do we?
Comment by Anonymous By Choice
Followed by this:
Do you live in the US? If so, I will help take up a collection so you can relocate to a place more fitting.
and yes, I am serious.
Comment by hacker bob
So, in Bob´s mind you never have to criticize your, exercise your freedom of speech or try to number all the deffects of society in the country you live in. That would be unpatriotic for good ol´patriotic bob.
No, Bob rather remove all those people from his country that criticize and think different, do not settle with less in social issues, are not happy with the circumstances of reality and point the flaws that we share as a civilization.
I just wanted to say that Anonymous by Choice made a wonderful statement. And, Bob you cant progress as a civilization unless you recognize (although it can be painful for you or your just-follow-orders trained brain) whats wrong in the place you live in, the people you interact every day and the decisions of your supposedly democratic government.
February 20th, 2007 at 5:06 pm#213,
Actually, it's the home schooled and uneducated that make up the "Duh" factor in this nation. You applaud that atrocity and want more, which is what is so disturbing.
You cannot see the fundamental point, and that is that a primary education is a moral obligation in raising a child - any child - and not an optional "service" to be provided by the lowest bidder or a corporation whose sole purpose is profits. Next you'll want to source out your parenting to private enterprise and although that would probably be better for your fake children, it is most certainly not the right thing for our nation's real children.
But, hey, you are entitled to your own opinions. Why don't you give your Rep a call and ask them to dismantle the public education system? Or, better yet, put a sign on your fake house that says that you believe your fake children deserve a better education than poor and underprivileged children do. Go ahead there Mr. Principles, if you truly believe it then air it out for you neighbors to see and not just post it here in cowardly anonymity.
February 20th, 2007 at 5:11 pm"Sporting such wood"?? That's the funniest thing I've heard in months. Damn. that's funny..Then again I wuz edgycted in pubic shcoolls. Can there be anyone on television dumber than Hannity? Seen thousands like him in my business life. Bullshit can get you to the top, but it won't keep you there. Tick Tick Tick.......
February 20th, 2007 at 5:12 pmAfter 80 years of communism, it’s going to take free markets a while to undue the damage. Nice try, though.
Comment by paul
Funny that a "communist", empoverished, embargoed and little country Cuba, has a higher percentage of literacy and health care services for its population than the US...yeah, free market, right. Nice try.
February 20th, 2007 at 5:12 pmTo the joyous crew bashing public schools and public school teachers unions.
Your beloved charter and voucher schools ain't doing any better overall. Kind of cramps your arguement that teachers and unions are the problem.
Maybe, just maybe, everyone is looking in the wrong place to place the blame for poor student performance.
February 20th, 2007 at 5:13 pmAh, but with our funding priorities, kids can do that anyway, merely by joining the Armed Services. They get to see new places, meet new people, and blow them to smithereens!
February 20th, 2007 at 5:17 pmComment by Juan C — February 20, 2007 @ 5:06 pm
Juan, quit cherry picking. The statement I was refering to was:
"America and Americans suck - the world knows it."
And the solution is, if you do not like America and Americans, than leave. Why be around a place and people you detest?
Pretty simple.
But you can not see that through you respect no one but yourself brain.
February 20th, 2007 at 5:17 pm#2
Paul, it may be so poor due to the philospohy of awarding more money to school's who teach so well to STANDARDIZED tests that critical thinking and other necessary skills, like the arts and physical education which expand a child's scope and helps develop real-world skills like creative thinking and team-work, and penalizing schools that are already under-funded.
February 20th, 2007 at 5:19 pm#2
Paul, it may be so poor due to the philospohy of awarding more money to school's who teach so well to STANDARDIZED tests that critical thinking and other necessary skills, like the arts and physical education which expand a child's scope and helps develop real-world skills like creative thinking and team-work are the first things cut from education budgets, and penalizing schools that are already under-manned and under-funded.
February 20th, 2007 at 5:20 pm#217 bigot bob,
Research has found that the majority of those who harbor hate for gay people are actually rebelling against their own homosexuality. Based on your extreme bigotry, I'd say your quite the closeted flamer.
Let it out, you'll feel better.
February 20th, 2007 at 5:23 pm[...] are still terrorists, according to the right. Think Progress has a post on the latest excrement from Fox [...]
February 20th, 2007 at 5:23 pm#217 bigot bob,
Research has found that the majority of those who harbor hate for gay people are actually rebelling against their own homosexuality. Based on your extreme bigotry, I’d say your quite the closeted flamer.
Let it out, you’ll feel better.
Comment by Tuber — February 20, 2007 @ 5:23 pm
I can attest to the fact, and can assure you wholeheartedly, that Hacker Bob is not gay. I should know, I am his wife.
Jeri Perkovich
February 20th, 2007 at 5:26 pmComment by hacker bob — February 20, 2007 @ 2:45 pm
Shifting targets, eh bob? "Social issues" and "moral stuff" are two different things.
Now, how do we close of all communication with the outside world, close our borders, and indictrinate everyone to follow a single moral, ethic and religious code in the United States? If you cannot do that, your proposal will create conflicts on an unimaginable scale as successive generations enter society not knowing that there is any view of morality other than what their parents taught them.
I believe it is the role of the schools to expose students to the realities of what they will encounter as they become members of society. Parents can and should be role models and pass down their beliefs on morality.
But then again, how many parents practice what they preach? Kids pick up on duplicity and hypocracy rather quickly, whether its from their parents or their teachers.
February 20th, 2007 at 5:26 pm#217 bigot bob,
Research has found that the majority of those who harbor hate for gay people are actually rebelling against their own homosexuality. Based on your extreme bigotry, I’d say your quite the closeted flamer.
Let it out, you’ll feel better.
Comment by Tuber — February 20, 2007 @ 5:23 pm
Tube-sock,
I do not have a hatred of gays. But I do not think that is a subject that should be taught in public schools. If we leave religion out, we should also leave sexuality out. Sex Ed is one thing, but "sexual normalcy" should be taught by parents.
February 20th, 2007 at 5:28 pmKemosabe, you said the GOP doesn't own the evangelical vote. Yet the GOP has bragged for years about owning it, and the evangelical leadership (in its many forms) has bragged about giving Bush the White House.
Are you claiming they'll vote for a Mormon? In the primaries?
February 20th, 2007 at 5:29 pm#228,
So, then you are just stupid?
February 20th, 2007 at 5:31 pmI should know, I am his wife.
Jeri Perkovich
Comment by Jeri
Nice to meet you, Mrs. Perkovich. We are fond of Robert, no matter how odd it seems.
February 20th, 2007 at 5:31 pm#64
Paul, comparing communism to public education, specifically the role the NEA plays, is just a bad analogy. Maybe you can compare the education system as dictated by the government, the teacher's unions haven't fought for their programs to be cut or to teach to standardized tests as far as I know, but the blame is being misplaced by you and people like you.
It's a shame this is what your kids are learning from you.
And yea, free market forces work well in markets Paul. The playing field, as uneven as it is now due to people who strive to kill public education (and therefore an educated populace), would only get more out of wack if people like you had your way.
But then again, by cutting people off at the knees (children off at the knees) because their parents can't afford to stay home to school their children or send them to over-priced public schools will provide you with a real cheap and stupid labor class. Which would make your life easier, right?
February 20th, 2007 at 5:34 pmThe statement I was refering to was:
“America and Americans suck - the world knows it.â€
Comment by hacker bob
You didnt make that clear. Anyway, whenever you say or think: I really suck at this you abandon that activity for good or you try harder to accomplish it?
through you respect no one but yourself brain.
Comment by hacker bob
Can you support that with a fact? Or you are just mad? I can really say that your brain is trained to follow orders: you are in the military. Please, tell me where I have shown that I just respect myself.
February 20th, 2007 at 5:35 pmour "capitalists" ran out of legitimate ways to make money 40 years ago - since then all they have done is search the "public" sector for ways to get that $, and keep more of it for themselves than they return in "public good"
90% of $ the IRS collects now goes directly to private contractors (ps to those who use the phrase "bloated gov't bureaucracy"- kiss my ass)
the attack on the schools, just like the attack on social security and medicare are calculated attempts by corporations to receive more corporate welfare, which is a hell of a lot more welfare than any number of any kind of our citizens have ever received.
private, for profit companies (over which we have NO control) are now fighting to turn that last 10% of your tax money into a "revenue stream" from which to fish for profits, by shortcutting YOU on everything they can.
February 20th, 2007 at 5:37 pm#230 bigot bob,
Wow, I've never been called a "sock" before. In your parts that may be an insult, but here it is just a hillarious display of a lack of wit.
Schools teach "reading" and, contrary to what you think, the bible is not the only book in the world. Therefore, the books have to be about something. The way I see it, a book about loving parents is fine. But you would probably prefer something that involves beating the wife or hating Muslims. You know, core american values.
February 20th, 2007 at 5:39 pmNext time a member of the Republic party whines about how "unions are destroying this nation", ask them if they feel the same way about police and firefighters, who also organize into unions.
If unions are bad for education and manufacturing, then maybe labor unions are also bad for law enforcement and emergency services?
Think they'll even answer the question? Doubtful.
February 20th, 2007 at 5:52 pmThink they’ll even answer the question? Doubtful.
Comment by Shlomo
which reminds me of the movie Billy Elliot.
In a scene, the radio is on and you can listen: Margaret Thatcher described the striking miners as the enemy within
Kind of make you think how the ruling class sees workers and their efforts to organize and demand good job conditions. Somebody remember Parsons and the Chicago Martyrs?
February 20th, 2007 at 6:04 pmMy significant other is a school teacher. She would just laugh at these a**holes!
February 20th, 2007 at 6:30 pmThe ruling class does not want the surfs to get uppity.
February 20th, 2007 at 6:35 pmBTW, Kwanza is not religiously based. It is culturally based. But I agree, none should be taught. Also, check the curiculum for Union Schools in Tulsa, OK. That is where 2 of th ethree were taught. Comment by hacker bob — February 20, 2007 @ 5:03 pm
All religions are nothing more than culturally based myths - why are you such a bigot about the religious and cultural practices of others?
Tube-sock, I do not have a hatred of gays. But I do not think that is a subject that should be taught in public schools. If we leave religion out, we should also leave sexuality out. Sex Ed is one thing, but “sexual normalcy†should be taught by parents. Comment by hacker bob — February 20, 2007 @ 5:28 pm
Sexual normalcy? Wow, what a big old closet mo you are! Do you think you're giving children sex-ed when they read books about divorced couples, or married hetero couples?
What a fool.
February 20th, 2007 at 6:39 pmAnd the solution is, if you do not like America and Americans, than leave. Why be around a place and people you detest? Comment by hacker bob — February 20, 2007 @ 5:17 pm
Multi-culturalism and liberal values define this country. If you dislike it so much, you should leave.
Pretty simple. Comment by hacker bob — February 20, 2007 @ 5:17 pm
Indeed, I suggest you move to some place like Saudi Arabia - they better fit your moralizing attitudes.
But you can not see that through you respect no one but yourself brain. Comment by hacker bob — February 20, 2007 @ 5:17 pm
Good description of yourself.
February 20th, 2007 at 6:41 pmI can attest to the fact, and can assure you wholeheartedly, that Hacker Bob is not gay. I should know, I am his wife.
Jeri Perkovich
Comment by Jeri
Hello, Mrs Robert.
I enjoy sparring with Robert on TP. We agree on approximatley 10-12 things now, so he's making excellent progress. :)
February 20th, 2007 at 6:55 pm"Who do you think you should be thanking for that progress? Hmmm?
You can’t use the results of progress and then bash the fact it that was a result of progressive thinking… Hello? Anyone home?..."
Thank you for demonstrating your belief in all things PROGRESS (i.e. technical, medical, mechanical advances) equates to progressive political theory. Of course it does not. Your poor attempt to confuse the argument is pitiful, but not unexpected. Socialists realized the poor PR the Socialist label garnered and....voila, "progressivism" was born. Apparently you are not aware of the "re-packaging". Please tell me you don't teach English - I think the homonyms, synonyms and antonyms may be too much for you.
(I never expected a discussion with you about your 1964 v. 2007 comment. You might come to the realization some very interesting things were written before your birth - but your glib response wouldn't seem nearly so "clever". When is the last time you read the US Constitution, The Communist Manifesto, Charles Dickens, or Alexandre Dumas?)
February 20th, 2007 at 6:58 pm#228,
So, then you are just stupid?
Comment by Tuber — February 20, 2007 @ 5:31 pm
Only an idiot would cast disparages about someone they know nothing about.
Jeri Perkovich
February 20th, 2007 at 7:01 pmNice to meet you, Mrs. Perkovich. We are fond of Robert, no matter how odd it seems.
Comment by Juan C
I enjoy sparring with Robert on TP. We agree on approximatley 10-12 things now, so he’s making excellent progress. :)
Comment by Zooey
Hi Juan and Zooey,
Nice to meet both of you. I have heard alot about you. :)
Jeri
February 20th, 2007 at 7:04 pm"The left doesn’t have an agenda..."
Comment by unbelievable
Leftist Leaders have an agenda - they might not have "shared" it with you. It is spelled out concisely and cogently in "None Dare Call it Treason" a book you have not read. (Do you make such sweeping statements in your classroom? You might have said, "I haven't seen.." or "I don't know the agenda of the Left". For the open-minded reputation of the Left, you don't seem to accept dissent or alternative views very well.)
February 20th, 2007 at 7:05 pmNice to meet both of you. I have heard alot about you. :)
Comment by Jeri
Oh my god, don't believe a word of it. :)
February 20th, 2007 at 7:06 pmDear Mrs. Bob - I knew Bob was a heterosexual. They would have liked Bob better if he were gay. We members of Think Progress' loyal opposition enjoy Bob's contributions here.
February 20th, 2007 at 7:12 pmComment by valiant venus — February 20, 2007 @ 7:05 pm
Good job, Hagette. unbelievable is gone, so you can safely move in for the kill......er, injury.
Have a cookie, Haggie. You can throw it up later.
February 20th, 2007 at 7:13 pmSchools teach “reading†and, contrary to what you think, the bible is not the only book in the world. Therefore, the books have to be about something. The way I see it, a book about loving parents is fine. But you would probably prefer something that involves beating the wife or hating Muslims. You know, core american values.
Comment by Tuber
Actually, I prefer something involving teen sex, teen violence, and teen suicide (Romeo and Juliette) or maybe something about incest (Oedipus Rex).
I said earlier to either teach all or none. I also said that all religious things should be left out of the schools. Yes, that includes the Bible.
Life style choices should also be left out of the schools. In short, teach the kids to read, write, and do math. That is the job of the schools. It is not their job to teach kids what they HAVE TO accept in regards to religion and sexuality.
February 20th, 2007 at 7:14 pmRobert,
You must be so relieved. The Mighty Hagette always knew you weren't a homo. You must feel so secure now. :P
February 20th, 2007 at 7:24 pmHay Zooey, how quaint, a introduction in print form....It would be truly weird if one of these people could reach through our moniter and shake hand's...Doe's bull shit bush have any extra hand wipes I can borrow from my white house...LOL..Blessings
February 20th, 2007 at 7:27 pmOh my god, don’t believe a word of it. :)
Comment by Zooey — February 20, 2007 @ 7:06 pm
From what I hear, you're one of the more reasonable people here, as far as liberals go. :)
As far as Hacker Bob goes, arguing with him is alot like arguing with a brick wall, isn't it? (Ha ha)
Jeri
February 20th, 2007 at 7:27 pmFrom what I hear, you’re one of the more reasonable people here, as far as liberals go. :)
High praise, indeed! Tell Robert the check's in the mail.
As far as Hacker Bob goes, arguing with him is alot like arguing with a brick wall, isn’t it? (Ha ha)
Comment by Jeri
I'm laughing out loud at that one, Mrs Robert. I certainly wasn't going to say that, but now that you mention it -- yes. :-D
February 20th, 2007 at 7:33 pmComment by Zooey — February 20, 2007 @ 7:24 pm
I am glad to have the reassurance. :) I wouldn't wanna be cornfusedwit one of them thar flamers.
February 20th, 2007 at 7:33 pmHay Zooey, how quaint, a introduction in print form….It would be truly weird if one of these people could reach through our moniter and shake hand’s…
Comment by Sharon
I'd be shutting down in a hurry, because it would probably be Paul with his horrible Love Train....
February 20th, 2007 at 7:35 pmI’m laughing out loud at that one, Mrs Robert. I certainly wasn’t going to say that, but now that you mention it — yes. :-D
Comment by Zooey — February 20, 2007 @ 7:33 pm
I hate to break up the "love fest", but it is only fair to warn you that I am the reasonable and tollerant one on the couple. (yes, she is in the other room)
February 20th, 2007 at 7:41 pmI am glad to have the reassurance. :) I wouldn’t wanna be cornfusedwit one of them thar flamers.
Comment by hacker bob
Oh no, Robert, I'm sure you'd pass just fine. Heh.
BTW, I asked you how you liked "An Inconvenient Truth" on the ThinkFast thread, so I'll transfer it here. So, how'd you like it? I'm not asking you how you like Al Gore, we've gone over your unreasonable position about him already. What did you think of the message?
February 20th, 2007 at 7:45 pm#250,
Life style choices should also be left out of the schools. In short, teach the kids to read, write, and do math. That is the job of the schools. It is not their job to teach kids what they HAVE TO accept in regards to religion and sexuality.
Comment by hacker bob
Finally, something we agree on (though I have to assume that the omission of "science" was inadvertent). I would assume then that you would also agree that it is also not the educators’ job to teach kids what they DON'T HAVE TO accept.
I am curious though in regards to the depth of your convictions. How do you feel about the pledge of allegiance since it has the phrase (added in the 50's) "under God" in it? You don't have to answer, just something to ponder.
By the way, I am mildly impressed with your choice of reading materials. There is nothing like some fine literature to help one explore the intricacies of the "human condition" which, as we know, is far from sterile or "normal". It is sad that so many do not understand this and end up attacking the professionals (teachers) while marching to the drums of the insane (Haggards).
Good chatting with you.
Sincerely,
February 20th, 2007 at 7:46 pmThe "Idiot"
I hate to break up the “love festâ€, but it is only fair to warn you that I am the reasonable and tollerant one on the couple. (yes, she is in the other room)
Comment by hacker bob
You must know I'll never believe that, Robert. We women stick together.
February 20th, 2007 at 7:47 pm:)
Robert, I'm heading out in the horrible weather to my lab.
(Feeling sorry for Zooey now!)
I'll check later for your answer about "An Inconvenient Truth."
February 20th, 2007 at 7:49 pm"If unions are bad for education and manufacturing, then maybe labor unions are also bad for law enforcement and emergency services?
Think they’ll even answer the question? Doubtful."
Comment by Shlomo
Unions are bad for public servants and employees. They may have been necessary before the age of labor laws and OSHA, but they are not necessary now. Unions are great for people who can't get or keep REAL jobs.
February 20th, 2007 at 7:56 pm"We women stick together."
Not true - you support liberal women as I support conservative women. As a liberal woman acquiantance once said "I always support women at the polls." I asked, "Do you support Elizabeth Dole?" Zooey, you may want want to stay out of unbelievables' "sweeping statement" class.
February 20th, 2007 at 8:01 pm"unbelievable is gone"
Not for long enough....
February 20th, 2007 at 8:04 pmEvery argument/critique ever lodged against unions is equally applicable to professional associations and corporate boards, so you union-bashers should figure out how to balance your beef and indict ALL the guilty parties.
and that means you, vindictive vulva
February 20th, 2007 at 8:13 pmI am curious though in regards to the depth of your convictions. How do you feel about the pledge of allegiance since it has the phrase (added in the 50’s) “under God†in it? You don’t have to answer, just something to ponder.
Tuber,
Yes, I did not intend to exclude science from the list.
I am all for the Pledge of Allegiance in the classroom. I am also all for students NOT saying the Pledge or choosing not to say "one nation, under God". If the school district (with input from parents) decide to not have the Pledge of Allegiance in the schools, then so be it.
I am not attacking teachers themselves, but the system that has the teachers doing things that are not their job.
As for the "Idiot" statement, I should have warned you not to mess with Momma, she is a 5' 8" redhead from Oklahoma. She will bite back.
February 20th, 2007 at 8:14 pmYa' got off easy.
actually, it's the GOP that's great for people who can't get, or hold, real jobs....heckuva job Brownie! (Rummy, Dubbie, Dickie, Dusty, Duke'y, Bob Ney-ey....ad infinitum)!
vv's arguments smell funny, because they've been pulled from someone's ass!
seriously, VV tell us what you think about supporting the troops in Bldg. 18 at Walter Reed, or is that way too remote a subject??
wait, never mind - just gfy.
February 20th, 2007 at 8:17 pm#262 vv,
Thank you for displaying your monumental lack of understanding regarding what unions are and what purpose they serve in ensuring the balance between businesses/industries and the labor force. Now I can see that to discuss the topic with you would be like discussing quantum physics with a three year old.
I would highly recommend that you speak with the heads/leaders of some labor unions (please try to keep your mind open) so that you can get some background and perspective. It would also be extremely helpful to explore the history of labor unions and their formations so as to know what the causes were. I'm not saying it will change your mind, but at least you won't appear the buffoon.
February 20th, 2007 at 8:23 pm#266,
I got exactly what I deserved, so no worries.
What you will find interesting is that my sister, a school principal, would agree with your post. She would add, though, that federal intervention or legislation is not the answer. What she would tell you is the solution is far greater parental involvement (PTA, volunteering, and frequently conversing with your child's teachers) and an understanding that the teachers and parents have the same goals, that is the healthy and diverse education of a child. Morality and spirituality should be taught by the parents at home, and discipline and congenial social behavior will be reinforced at school.
The disturbing trend that frustrates her is that an increasing number of parents don’t seem to understand that the number one teacher in a child’s life is the parent. And, the responsibility for the education of a child lay with the parent(s) as well.
February 20th, 2007 at 8:44 pmNeal Boortz, Rod Paige and Sean Hannity ARE MORE DANGEROUS THAN al-Qaeda IN TRYING TO CONTROL WHAT IS TAUGHT TO OUR CHILDREN IN SCHOOL AND TO THEIR PARENTS BY THEIR JINGOISTIC DEMAGOGUERY--THESE THREE ALONG WITH OTHER IDIOTS AND DOLTS WHO SHARE THEIR PERVERTED, TWISTED VIEWS, LIKE Michelle Malkin, Ann Counter-geist, Melanie Morgan, Bill O'LIElly, ad nauseum, SHOULD ALL BE TARRED AND FEATHERED AND RUN OUT OF AMERICA FOR THE GOOD OF ITS PEOPLE AND ESPECIALLY ITS CHILDREN!!!!!
February 20th, 2007 at 8:47 pm"Thank you for displaying your monumental lack of understanding regarding what unions are and what purpose they serve in ensuring the balance between businesses/industries and the labor force. "
Thank you for regurgitating the Union Label. Unions were necessary - not any longer. Yessir, they sure have done alot for the automotive and steel industries. These days, when you see how unions protect the lazy and incompetent, I am surprised any honest hard-working people would even wish to be associated with a union. Pssst....discussing unions with you would be like discussing quantum physics with anyone - incomprehensible.
Read "The Teamsters" by Steven Brill. I'd suggest you keep your mind open but...
I had an uncle-in-law with the Amalgamated Clothing and Textile workers and a cousin from the Teamsters. Talk about a corrupt bunch of bloodsuckers. Save you fresh bits of union-ism for the stupid or uninformed.
February 20th, 2007 at 8:49 pmI had an uncle-in-law with the Amalgamated Clothing and Textile workers and a cousin from the Teamsters. Talk about a corrupt bunch of bloodsuckers. Save you fresh bits of union-ism for the stupid or uninformed. Comment by valiant venus — February 20, 2007 @ 8:49 pm
Oh heavens, another fake post, from about fake family, from the 23 year old Anorexic from myspace. Mighty Aphrodite, eat 5 calories today, you sick, twisted little girl.
Stupid and uninformed, are you sure you aren't reading a diary entry about what your parents think of you?
February 20th, 2007 at 8:51 pm[...] least the uppity ones that join unions. This from Think Progress: Last night on Fox News’s Hannity and Colmes, right-wing radio host Neal Boortz claimed that [...]
February 20th, 2007 at 8:55 pmIt is spelled out concisely and cogently in “None Dare Call it Treason†a book you have not read. (Do you make such sweeping statements in your classroom? You might have said, “I haven’t seen..†or “I don’t know the agenda of the Leftâ€. For the open-minded reputation of the Left, you don’t seem to accept dissent or alternative views very well.) Comment by valiant venus — February 20, 2007 @ 7:05 pm
Another conspiracy theory wacko Fascist.
Eat something Anorexia girl, this has to be one of the dumbest things you've ever posted - and that says a lot!!!!
While you fcuktards undermine democracy, you accuse others of conspiracy? You're a fcucking moron, you Anorexic c*nt.
February 20th, 2007 at 8:55 pm#271,
And there you go again. Who said that there are not some bad apples in unions? No one. But your argument is that because you have some documented (or hearsay) corruption that all unions should be abolished. With that logic, so should our government. And corporations. And churches. Shall I go on?
Now I am not in a union, I am in management. But I have supervised union labor and have worked with many union workers. I have not seen the rampant corruption and "slackers" that you describe. Methinks that you should look outside of your relatives and friends before making such baseless generalizations.
Up to you. Good bye.
February 20th, 2007 at 9:01 pmLife style choices should also be left out of the schools. Comment by hacker bob — February 20, 2007 @ 7:14 pm
So then all books about married couples, single people, and divorced individuals should be left out of school? Any topic that talks about someone renting or buying? Or maybe discussing dietary, or cultural clothing? Because those are all 'lifestyle' choices my friend.
In short, teach the kids to read, write, and do math. Comment by hacker bob — February 20, 2007 @ 7:14 pm
Yeah, because if we teach them to think, reason, be creative or intellectual - they'll question you like we do! Freak.
That is the job of the schools. It is not their job to teach kids what they HAVE TO accept in regards to religion and sexuality. Comment by hacker bob — February 20, 2007 @ 7:14 pm
Do you really think we want religion taught here? And do you really think that pointing out that families are different is teaching people 'sexuality'?
You're a fcuked up fool.
February 20th, 2007 at 9:02 pmYessir, they sure have done alot for the automotive and steel industries.
Comment by valiant venus — February 20, 2007 @ 8:49 pm
Unions had nothing to do with the automotive's industry problems -bad management decisions and poor quality products are the culprits. The layoffs of their US workforce were also due to the emergence of manufacturing in low-cost centers (like Mexico, where a great number of American cars are assembled).
Just to show you the ignorance in your argument, Mitey Coprolite, at the same time that US carmakers struggle, their Japanese counterparts thrive, opening plants across the US in states formerly ignored by the Big Three. How is that possible? They make cars most Americans want at lower cost, with better built-in quality.
As for the US steel industry, your contention is just as vapid: That industry is also in decline in the US due to competition from foreign companies, where costs are lower. The US steel industry's troubles became so deep that the Bush administration had to impose tariffs to steel imports in order to keep domestic companies afloat (By the way, this is another example of "free market" double-standards: Big capital is against government intervention, until they need it. But I digress).
These days, when you see how unions protect the lazy and incompetent,
Actually, as I pointed out, the lazy and incompetent Us companies are proctected by the US government trhough taxes and subsidies.
The unions, again, had nothing to do with this.
I had an uncle-in-law with the Amalgamated Clothing and Textile workers and a cousin from the Teamsters.
Ah, Mitey, still talking about your imaginary family?
February 20th, 2007 at 9:15 pmWith that logic, so should our government. And corporations. And churches. Shall I go on? Comment by Tuber — February 20, 2007 @ 9:01 pm
Mighty Aphrodite using logic? That would be a first. She's a tiny bundle of hypocrisy and double standards. Any flaw among what she sees as 'commie' organizations mean those shouldn't exist, but any flaws in herself (like her eating disorder) or your political party and ideology is just OkieDokie!
I think it's the eating disorder, it's eaten what little brain was in her tiny head to start with!
February 20th, 2007 at 9:15 pmDamn, and I thought all this time the haggett was gone.....Is that you mighty what's a ditty.? Your back with a different screen name.? Wonders never cese and 22 year old's with nothing better to do just keep re appearing in a new disguise..If I were you I would be out with some good looking hunk dancing the night away......What no date's, so sorry maybe tomorrow...
February 20th, 2007 at 9:36 pm...when you consider the huge number of Dinosaur species we know about, that the Bible is very explicit about the number of males/females that were taken as adult mates, this whole thing shows exactly how stupid and insane these people are. You wouldn’t fit a single Supersaurus (130ft in length), let alone a male and his females. -- ValiantVenusGrewFromUranus
*****************************
No question...but you know how these people think (although describing what some of them do as "thinking" is being a little too optimistic). Who needs facts when you've got FAITH?!? "It must have been a miracle -- God made the Ark float even though it was only made of wood and had all those heavy dinosaurs on it!"
February 20th, 2007 at 9:37 pmI didn't know there were dinosaures on the ark.. I'm still strugeling with was there an ark and what's a cubits...Just putting on, Bluestocking's...I don't believe all that stuff...One th ing I know from experience is Union's for the most part are good......Blessings
February 20th, 2007 at 9:47 pmHere in New York City, there's strong evidence for the argument that there are not enough qualified teachers because people are leaving to pursue other careers where they can earn more money and/or more respect. The New York Public School System is so strapped for teachers that for the past several years, there's been a program called the NYC Teaching Fellows program. Not only are candidates not required to have a degree in education in order to take part in the program (although a bachelor's degree with a minimum GPA of 3.0 is required), the program subsidizes them for a master's degree in education while they're working. The fact that this program is highly competitive is a good sign -- last year, there were apparently over 17,000 applications for less than 4,000 slots. Nevertheless, the fact that New York City needs to have such a program in the first place in order to provide enough teachers for our children is disquieting to say the least.
February 20th, 2007 at 10:04 pmZooey, you may want want to stay out of unbelievables’ “sweeping statement†class.
Comment by valiant venus
Hagette, you might want to keep any advice you have to yourself. I don't take advice from liars.
February 20th, 2007 at 10:50 pmComment by Tuber — February 20, 2007 @ 8:44 pm
Wow, we agree.
February 20th, 2007 at 10:57 pmValiantVenusGrewFromUranus
I never had a course in families in school. Closest thing was Home Economics, and that taught cooking and sewing. By lifestyle choices, I meant gay/straight/bi lifestyles. I do not see where teaching kids that there are gay couples and families has anything to do with their reasoning skills.
If a child is educated in Math, Science, Literature, etc. They will also be able to developed reasoning/thinking skills. But the classroom is not the place to teach religion and social acceptance. The "State", in this case the school system, has no right to tell my child that being gay, or straight is a "normal" lifestyle. As we all know "normal" is subjective.
Again, if you are not going to honor all points of view, then leave them all out of the schools.
As for calling me a fcuked up fool, fcuk you, you fcuking fcuk.
Enough profanity for you?
February 20th, 2007 at 11:12 pmwatch out for teachers, they might have some of those Weapons of Mass Discussion.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:14 pm#279 - "I don’t take advice from liars."
That's not what I heard from Bill Clinton or John Kerry.
February 20th, 2007 at 11:17 pmAgain, we have exactly the school system we want. Why? Because we have the school system we are willing to pay for.
Think about it. We fund aproximately $7,000 per student per year. A kid is housed at school from 7:30 a.m. until 3:00 p.m. That's a total of 8 1/2 hours per day, for 180 days per school year. Now, 8.5 x 180 = 1,530 hours.
Now, $7,000 / 1,530 = $4.58 per hour. We pay more for babysitting. Yet for $4.58 per hour, your kid gets one or two hot meals, adult supervision, books, and an opportunity to learn. And this doesn't even factor in the costs of special education, where one student can cost a school district over $100,000 per year. The money for that student comes from, that's right, it's taken from the $4.58/hour alloted to other students.
Now for all those who rail against the public schools, and public school teachers I say this: go out and try to find a private tutor who will teach your child and work for $4.58 per hour (less than the minimum wage!).
February 21st, 2007 at 12:28 amsorry, typo. only 7 1/2 hours per day; 1350/year; $5.19 per hour.
February 21st, 2007 at 12:32 amNow for all those who rail against the public schools, and public school teachers I say this: go out and try to find a private tutor who will teach your child and work for $4.58 per hour (less than the minimum wage!).
Comment by Briseadh na Faire —
Don't forget to include one or two square meals a day too Briseadh na Faire .
All that, for $4.85-hr.
Plus learning something too! Pretty famn good bargain if you ask me.
February 21st, 2007 at 1:25 amPretty famn good
TYPO: Pretty damn good
February 21st, 2007 at 1:26 amI never had a course in families in school. Comment by hacker bob — February 20, 2007 @ 11:12 pm
Every time you read a book that talked about families, you had a course on families. That's the point, schmuck.
Closest thing was Home Economics, and that taught cooking and sewing. Comment by hacker bob — February 20, 2007 @ 11:12 pm
So none of the literature you ever read had any families in it? You're rather slow on the uptake aren't you skippy?
By lifestyle choices, I meant gay/straight/bi lifestyles. Comment by hacker bob — February 20, 2007 @ 11:12 pm
I know what you meant, it's just a very narrow wedge definition - I was discussing families and relationships, not sex. And there are many books that are literature in school that have all sorts of relationships mentioned. You freaks however, freak out when any of that literature describes the real world.
I do not see where teaching kids that there are gay couples and families has anything to do with their reasoning skills. Comment by hacker bob — February 20, 2007 @ 11:12 pm
Ironic, because if you had reasoning skills you never would have written that. Lots of children grow up in families that are non-traditional. This is often discussed in context of fellow students, and in literature. You religious taliban nazis think that mentioning real world families, many of whom have children in schools is the real world. You want to shelter them from this existing family structures because you're a religious fanatic. This has nothing to do with sex, it has to do with families - of which you are a bigot.
If a child is educated in Math, Science, Literature, etc. They will also be able to developed reasoning/thinking skills. Comment by hacker bob — February 20, 2007 @ 11:12 pm
You're proof that this is a bum theory.
But the classroom is not the place to teach religion and social acceptance. Comment by hacker bob — February 20, 2007 @ 11:12 pm
Tell yourself and your fellow Christians to stop trying to teach Religion (Creationism) in school - you're the fools that are guilty of this. And shove your Christmas trees up your ass while you're at it - will you?
As for social acceptance, tell that to the children that grow up being brutalized by fools like you in school. You're an idiot.
The “Stateâ€, in this case the school system, has no right to tell my child that being gay, or straight is a “normal†lifestyle. As we all know “normal†is subjective. Comment by hacker bob — February 20, 2007 @ 11:12 pm
Why not? You tell your children to persecute other childrens, schools have a right to explain this is a bigoted behavior. Bigots like you have been using this David Duke excuse for decades to argue that equality of the races or the reality that there are inter-racial marriages shouldn't be talked about in school.
Again, if you are not going to honor all points of view, then leave them all out of the schools. Comment by hacker bob — February 20, 2007 @ 11:12 pm
Actually it's you that aren't honoring all points of view. Why is it a threat to you that someone else lives a different lifestyle than you - if you're comfortable in yours? They aren't teaching that straight marriages are wrong - but it is you that isn't honoring all points of view. Typical conservative, you think bigotry is a valid point of view.
As for calling me a fcuked up fool, fcuk you, you fcuking fcuk.
Enough profanity for you? Comment by hacker bob — February 20, 2007 @ 11:12 pm
Your statements are profane - as is always hatred and bigotry. You're far more foul than any foul words.
February 21st, 2007 at 1:47 amI have been advocating a radical departure from the miserly pay scale we currently pay teachers. Here are my suggestions:
February 21st, 2007 at 2:27 am1. Starting teachers salaries are $75K in Sioux City IA and indexed up according to the cost of living.
2. Teachers who work in underpriveleged areas start at $100K per year.
3. Exceptional students need only apply. "C" students do not qualify for teaching credentials - we only want the best, brightest and most enthusiastic teachers for our kids - everyday, without fail - no exceptions.
4. NO transfers of "lemon" teachers to poor schools. Fire them.
5. No tenure. No teachers' union. Teachers negotiate their own contracts. Principals negotiate their contracts yearly with the local school board.
6. Eliminate the waste in the administrative end of education.
7. Monetarily reward teachers who work to improve their students abilities.
8. End social promotions.
9. Require parental involvement (if classroom participartion is impossible, parents can help teachers at home with their grading, stapling, etc.)
10. Teachers and students who wish to learn should not be expected to tolerate rude or incorrigible children. Teachers may insist a parent accompany an unruly student throughout the day. should this lesson not make an impression on a disruptive student, continuation school will be the final step in this students' public education.
11. For students not wishing to attend college, a full range of technical classes should be available, i.e. auto mechanic, plumbing, electrical, heating and air conditioning, masonry, construction, agriculture, drafting, culinary skills, office computer skills, etc.
11. Gang attire is not permitted in school - PERIOD.
[...] http://thinkprogress.org/2007/02/20/boortz-teachers-terrorists/ [...]
February 21st, 2007 at 5:11 am[...] http://thinkprogress.org/2007/02/20/boortz-teachers-terrorists/ [...]
February 21st, 2007 at 5:11 am[...] http://thinkprogress.org/2007/02/20/boortz-teachers-terrorists/ [...]
February 21st, 2007 at 5:12 am[...] http://thinkprogress.org/2007/02/20/boortz-teachers-terrorists/ [...]
February 21st, 2007 at 5:12 amSteve Jobs lambasted teacher unions Friday, claiming no amount of technology in the classroom would improve public schools until principals could fire bad teachers.
Jobs compared schools to businesses with principals serving as CEOs.
"What kind of person could you get to run a small business if you told them that when they came in they couldn't get rid of people that they thought weren't any good?" he asked to loud applause during an education reform conference.
"Not really great ones because if you're really smart you go, 'I can't win.'"
In a rare joint appearance, Jobs shared the stage with competitor Michael Dell, founder and CEO of Dell Inc. Both spoke to the gathering about the potential for bringing technological advances to classrooms.
"I believe that what is wrong with our schools in this nation is that they have become unionized in the worst possible way," Jobs said.
"This unionization and lifetime employment of K-12 teachers is off-the-charts crazy."
At various pauses, the audience applauded enthusiastically. Michael Dell, founder and CEO of Dell Inc., sat quietly with his hands folded in his lap.
February 21st, 2007 at 9:02 amThe trouble with education today is not the point of learning and being able to harness out a living by aquired knowledge, the concept of expectations as individuals shadows out all prosperity for the country as a whole. The system teaches kids today, "meism," instead of unification, caring and common human affection. Competition at all costs.
February 21st, 2007 at 9:08 amIn this system success is the ultimate goal, yet the country cannot support success on terms of numbers of graduates, yet people are brainwashed to never lower your expectations.
Thus the reason why lame, aggressive and rude comments always seem to coincide with people of high education and PHD's up their wing-wang.
Hense: "competition at all costs!"
Unions and the teachers are not the same thing, nor is there a comparison here between teachers and terrorists. Only an ideological moron would do that, but then I expect that from the NEA. I guess a comparison that simple requires a level of abstract reasoning too advanced for the NEA and its supporters. You know, the sort of abstract reasoning it takes to realize that he was saying that they each damage America in their own way, not saying NEA member = terrorist.
Of course the biggest institutional factor that has kept minorities back has been the shitty quality of the average teacher and teaching environment in those areas. The NEA just wants to throw more money and job security at those people. Screw them, Boortz is right. The NEA in its own way is extremely dangerous to the future of America.
February 21st, 2007 at 9:26 amIt is incorrect to say that Neal is a "right-winger." He is a Libertarian. The Libertarian party encompasses values on both the left and the right, mainly the left. Labeling him as "right-wing" shows your ignorance, do your homework.
February 21st, 2007 at 9:27 amI'm amazed at the amount of name calling going on here. It's sad that any topic disintegrates into a political name calling match. In fact, if you step back we all want the same thing, good education. But instead of starting there and working forward, we've all been calling each other names and swearing at each other.
Apparently we've all forgotten what we learned on day 1 of kindegarten, "Treat others and you want to be treated".
...grow up everyone...
February 21st, 2007 at 9:34 amPublic schools are better.
SOme private schools teach that there is a god. What a joke.
February 21st, 2007 at 9:36 amYeah man... no need to be extreme or sensational about it but unions are nothing but bad news.
February 21st, 2007 at 9:44 amAs the spouse of a teacher, I have the privilege of getting to see both sides of the equation. I am not as emotional in defending the schools systems as my wife is, but I do think they get a bad rap. Does the school system have problems, of course it does.
February 21st, 2007 at 9:46 amBut from what I have seen, in the middle of suburban Kansas City, the biggest problems with schools are not the teachers, but the parents. When the teachers lose the ability to control their classrooms becuase 50% of the students have some sort of disablity (ADD, ADHD, Behavior disorder, etc....) and the administrations won't support the schools because of the fear of a lawsuit, how much can you expect the teachers to be able to deliver in 45 minutes.
If you really want to fix education, stop using the public school system as a dumping ground where the school is expected to do the job of the parents. Until that happens, the school system is going to get worse, and it is not the fault of the NEA.
[...] More Dangerous’ Than Al Qaeda Filed under: Uncategorized — recar @ 2:50 pm Neal Boortz: Teachers Unions Are ‘Much More Dangerous’ Than Al Qaeda [VIDEO] Last night on Fox News, right-wing radio host Neal Boortz stated, “Look, Al Qaeda, [...]
February 21st, 2007 at 9:46 amTim. I agree with you sentiment in #294, however, I do admit to addressing peope as 'delusional', decribed them as having their heads in the sand, etc. It can be frustrating for both sides of any argument.
I am curious. What's your opinion on the state of our education system and where it should go from here?
February 21st, 2007 at 9:52 amIt is amazing that people honestly believe that Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter scoff at academics.
They are scoffing at what Liberals have transformed public academics into.
I went through the public school system and frankly I suffered severely at the hands of a number of bad teachers.
Conservative Teachers tend to *never* discuss their political views,
while liberal teachers discuss them relentlessly.
I had a teacher that put Diapers on the wall in order to explain the "environmental impact" of not providing the proper diaper to your baby. This was a third grade class!
I was taught that Benjamin Franklin had sex with French Women, and that's why France assisted us in the Revolutionary War.
I was taught that the American National Anthem is nothing more than a Drunken Bar Song.
That's your public school system that Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter Scoff at!
February 21st, 2007 at 10:01 amRush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter do not scoff at academics.
They scoff at what liberals have done to academics.
I went through the public school system and learned:
1) In third grade, my teacher put 3 Diapers on the wall and explained which one was more enviro friendly than the other. Third grade!
2) Benjamin Franklin had sex with French Women to convince France to help us in the Revolutionary War.
3) American National Anthem is nothing more than a Drunken Bar Song.
That's your public education. That's what the "Teacher's Unions" are teaching your children.
February 21st, 2007 at 10:05 amThis is odd. I was listening to an older Dan Carlin podcast (Common Sense Show 72 - Legislators of Mass Destruction, Recorded 04 Nov 2006) and he actually used the same imagery.
Dan Carlin said at 19:50 of Show 72
Just thought that was interesting.
February 21st, 2007 at 10:09 amThat’s not what I heard from Bill Clinton or John Kerry.
Comment by valiant venus
High-priced attorney in San Diego -- LIE
Owns her law firm -- LIE
Wife -- LIE
Mother -- LIE
Deceased child -- LIE
Alleging you are anything but a sorry-assed embarrassment of a human -- LIE
Hagette, you put both Clinton and Kerry to shame with your ability to lie, so don't hold yourself above anyone.
February 21st, 2007 at 10:16 amI am the husband of a teacher. I will be the first to admit that the NEA has its problems. However, the NEA is not the real issue here. My wife works in a school largely represented by blue collar workers and lower income families. She teaches 3rd grade. Many of these kids don't go to bed until close to midnight, some live in hotels, some with grandparents etc... Some of the parents of these kids are drug addicts and three parents in this current class are in prison. You experts tell me, with this scenario not being uncommon nationwide, how teachers are supposed to be responsible for the performance and well being of these kids? Teachers are underpaid, have no grounds to dicipline, and spend additional money to make their classroom nice, money not refunded might I add. The family institution is destroying this generation. Without the support of parents, these kids don't have a chance. My guess is that NB and SH, if they have kids, either go to a private school or a public school in a well to do community. This is clear as they obviously don't know what in the hell they are talking about.
February 21st, 2007 at 10:23 amBoortz isn't a republican or a conservative, he's a libertarian. I know conservatives that would leave the room if he came in.
And he's right, by the way. This is one of those knee-jerk situations where you feel you have to defend the teachers. But Boortz isn't attacking the teachers. He's attacking the union infrastructure that's determined to put their own well-being ahead of the well-being of the kids. Examples abound. But I'm glad to see there are diggers here that aren't just taking what they're being fed and are choosing to actually think this through.
Do teachers earn enough money? That's a good question, and worth debating, but isn't really relevant in this case. In cases like this, people who bring up school funding and teacher salaries, are trying to toss a red herring into the room to distract you from the real question ("pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!").
February 21st, 2007 at 10:25 am@ 289
Finally someone is making some sense!
Presently, I am a Substitute Teacher (and I have to be licensed for this in New Mexico), and I am working on my BA in Mathematics (5-12) with teaching licensure. When I graduate from Western Governors University - http://www.wgu.edu - I will be a competent and highly qualified Math teacher actually trained in my field.
In the 21st century, the high school student that doesn't have great Math skills faces a brick wall upon graduation. Math is important, more than ever, for many careers in this day and age. The USA is eighth in Math scores, with Singapore beating everyone. We only require students to graduate with Algebra 2 which is bloody ridiculous IMO. Coming from Canada, I had Trigonometry when I graduated with Senior Matriculation from high school in 1982. We should be requiring American students to graduate with a minimum of Trigonometry, but Calculus would be even better IMO.
The major problem with education from a teacher's point of view is that of student discipline. How can I be expected to teach students that want to learn when you have disruptive students who don't want to learn or even be there, and there is no real way to deal with these people? Parents do not teach their children to respect teachers and their elders, from what I have seen. Parents are the first teacher of a child. If they don't do their job right, how does society expect the second teacher (the academic teacher) to do their job properly?
The other problem is school administrators who don't support the teachers. How can I be expected to deal with a classroom effectively when the principal won't even back you up?
There are other problems that cover enumeration, school board administrators being paid too much, "No Child Left Behind" Act, etc. The NCLB is destroying schools and teachers in the process.
February 21st, 2007 at 10:29 amI agree with him completly.
Libtards were in charge for 40 years and they didn't do shit for the public school system. The hero Klinton claims lets do it for the children. He didn't do squat.
Libtards are so full of shit.
February 21st, 2007 at 10:39 amWell said! I agree with Boortz completely.
FYI:
http://www.neoperspectives.com/charterschoolsexplained.htm
The public school system is already so beleaguered by bureaucracy; so cowed by the demands of due process; so overwhelmed with faddish curricula that its educational purpose is almost an afterthought.
-CA Justice Janice Rogers Brown
I suppose it is because nearly all children go to school nowadays, and have things arranged for them, that they seem so forlornly unable to produce their own ideas.
- Agatha Christie
My grandmother wanted me to have an education, so she kept me out of school.
- Margaret Mead
The only time my education was interrupted was when I was in school.
- George Bernard Shaw
Never let your schooling interfere with your education.
- Mark Twain
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education.
- Albert Einstein
Our greatest natural resource is the minds of our children.
- Walt Disney
Just as eating against one's will is injurious to health, so studying without a liking for it spoils the memory, and it retains nothing it takes in.
- Leonardo Da Vinci
Do you think nobody would willingly entrust his children to you or pay you for teaching them? Why do you have to extort your fees and collect your pupils by compulsion?
- Isabel Paterson
It's time to admit that public education operates like a planned economy, a bureaucratic system in which everybody's role is spelled out in advance and there are few incentives for incentives for innovation and productivity. It's no surprise that our school system doesn't improve: It more resembles the communist economy than our own market economy.
- Albert Shanker - During his time as head of the American Federation of Teachers
When school children start paying union dues, that's when I'll start representing the interests of school children.
- Albert Shanker
The NEA is a terrorist organization.
- Secretary of Education Rod Paige
If the only motive was to help people who could not afford education, advocates of government involvement would have simply proposed tuition subsidies.
- Milton Friedman
Despite a documented low correlation between money spent and improvement in the quantity and quality of public education, the reform of public education has focused almost exclusively on the financial issue.
- Paul Zane Pilzer
As for money, the relationship between it and effective schools has been studied to death. The unanimous conclusion is that there is no connection between school funding and school performance.
- Brookings Institution scholars John Chubb and Terry Moe, 1990
Education is one of the few things a person is willing to pay for and not get.
- William Lowe Bryan
To compel a man to furnish contributions of money for the propagation of opinions which he disbelieves and abhors, is sinful and tyrannical.
- Thomas Jefferson
The more subsidized it is, the less free it is. What is known as `free education' is the least free of all, for it is a state-owned institution; it is socialized education - just like socialized medicine or the socialized post office - and cannot possibly be separated from political control.
- Frank Chodorov, "Why Free Schools Are Not Free," 1948
If Congress can employ money indefinitely to the general welfare, and are the sole and supreme judges of the general welfare, they may take the care of religion into their own hands; they may appoint teachers in every State, county and parish and pay them out of their public treasury; they may take into their own hands the education of children, establishing in like manner schools throughout the Union; they may assume the provision of the poor; they may undertake the regulation of all roads other than post-roads; in short, every thing, from the highest object of state legislation down to the most minute object of police, would be thrown under the power of Congress. Were the power of Congress to be established in the latitude contended for, it would subvert the very foundations, and transmute the very nature of the limited Government established by the people of America.
- James Madison
Wherever is found what is called a paternal government, there is found state education. It has been discovered that the best way to insure implicit obedience is to commence tyranny in nursery.
- Benjamin Disraeli, British Prime Minister
At every hour of every day, I can tell you on which page of which book each school child in Italy is studying.
- Benito Mussolini
The education of all children, from the moment that they can get along without a mother's care, shall be in state institutions at state expense.
- Karl Marx
Give me four years to teach the children and the seed I have sown will never be uprooted.
- Vladimir Ilyich Lenin
Ideas are more dangerous than guns. We don’t allow our enemies to have guns. Why should we allow them to have ideas?
- Joseph Stalin
In the first place God made idiots. This was for practice. Then he made school boards.
February 21st, 2007 at 11:18 am- Mark Twain
Bed-wetting wingnuts show up when the thread is dead.
Typical.
February 21st, 2007 at 11:23 amHere's my solution. Figure out what we are spending per capita for a student in any school district (let's say $10,000yr). Offer parents half that ($5000/yr) to educate their child however they want (homeschool, private, religious, montessori, etc). Test the kids every year. Those students that haven't met the standards, the parents don't get the money the next year. Those kids that don't meet the standard can still be educated the way they are now, with the current system. The system will still be funded, because you're only offering half the money (and it keeps all the money from the students that stay in the system) and the burdens on the system (overcrowding, etc) would be eased. Market forces would be allowed to work to improve the system for people that have needs that aren't currently being address by the current system. And most importantly, there would be an incentive for administrators to better meet the needs of the students or risk losing some of their funding.
February 21st, 2007 at 11:32 amNeal Boortz is not right-wing, he is a free-thinking Libertarian. He is socially liberal, financially conservative. That is not the same as right-wing.
February 21st, 2007 at 11:47 am[...] is here. The interesting thing is the rather liberal Steve jobs said something very similar very [...]
February 21st, 2007 at 12:28 pmI'd like to make a few points.
1. Like someone already pointed out, Boortz is a libertarian, not a conservative. Like the conservatives, he believes in smaller Government (Though elected conservatives usually only pretend to believe in smaller Government). He also believes that things like sexual preference, drug usage, etc. are not the government's business.
2. He didn't say teachers were evil. He was speaking about the NEA, which is comprised of teachers many of whom are good, but whose actions as an organization can be bad.
3. Worker's unions are not necessarily bad, but it is bad when they have too much power. When the power of a union and an industry are balanced, there is a balance between good decisions made by corporations and how well these corporations take care of their employees.
When unions are too powerful, businesses can become less competitive. Someone made the comment "Next you’ll be blaming the UAW for all those layoffs at the Big Three." Well, if the big three are paying their workers more than a free market will support, then foreign car companies will be more competitive. This causes the Big Three to lose money, and therefore they have to lay off workers to survive.
Workers unions can make it harder to fire bad employees. This makes it harder for businesses, or in the case of the NEA, the school system to hold employees to appropriate standards. This doesn't mean that all teachers are bad, but it does mean that the ones who are get to keep their jobs. I believe this is what they are trying to say.
4. While the NEA and government management of education are a big problem, most of the blame does lie with the parents. When kids aren't taught discipline and respect at home, they will not learn it at school. When they do not respect the teacher or the school's rules, they will be willing to learn and the will disrupt class making it harder for others to learn.
When my father was in school, I don't believe education cost nearly as much as it does today(no I haven't done the research, and I don't have the time. Feel free to point me to any reseach showing me to be right or wrong.) He had a great education. The difference was that in those days, kids where taught respect and discipline at home. A student who learns this at home and who wants to learn may even be able to teach himself/herself when he or she is put in a classroom with a bad teacher. I've had to do this when I was in school.
5. While I like football, I agree with an earlier comment by someone stating that football programs are a waste of tax payer money. A government shouldn't rob its citizens to pay for sports. However, maybe a good general education about physical fitness would be ok. Then again, maybe that's something best taught at home.
6. Liberals base their oppinions on emotions rather than reason, although they often make modest attempts at reason. You can see this when they insult conservatives rather than really debate them. They claim that conservatives are brainwashed idiots who take their marching orders from people like Rush Limbaugh, when they don't see how badly their own leaders have fooled them.
7. Conservatives are mostly rational people except when it comes to religion and morals. Who cares if two or three homosexuals get married. Who cares if a man and a goat get married. It sure as hell not my business, and it damn sure isn't the governments business. If someone smokes pot, what do I care. If someone smokes crack and destroys his brain, I'll feel bad that he's doing it, but it's not my job or the government's job to stop him. If he steals to buy his crack, then arrest him for that. Of course, if we could prevent such an individual from smoking crack in the first place(and we obviously can't) we would remove his motivation for stealing. But we would also trample on the rights of those who can smoke crack without stealing to pay for it.
8. Libertarians like Boortz are mostly rational people, though I think saying the NEA is more dangerous than Al Qaeda is definatly an exageration to say the least.
9. Republicans don't want tax cuts for the rich exclusively. They wan't tax cuts for everyone (at least that's what they tell voters). Don't let the liberals pull the wool over your eyes. Besides, stealing from the rich is still stealing. However taxing the rich doesn't hurt the rich so much as make it harder for the non-rich to accumulate wealth. Many of the Liberal politicians are rich. If they raise taxes on the rich, it won't hurt them at all -- they have a lot of money. They could lose a little money each year and still be rich.
But what we should mostly be concerned about is the virtual tax placed on everyone by inflation. When the government prints extra money(or creates virtual money by federal reserve credit), they transfer wealth from you to them by devaluing the money you have. This hurts poor and middle class people more than the rich. When the value of a dollar decreases, the paychecks and savings accounts are worth less because prices for groceries, gas, rent, etc. increase. This has less effect on the rich because their self value is largely based in stocks, bonds, gold, etc. whose dollar value increases as the value of the dollar decreases. This is a problem in which both Democrats and Republicans play a big part. Ron Paul is the only congressman I know of who want's to do anything about it.
10. The government is slowly but surely headed towards bankruptcy. I'm sure many will accuse me of playing on others fears. To those who do, I accuse you of ignoring a real problem. If you do not recognize a problem, you can't fix it. If you think I'm wrong, tell me how I'm wrong. Don't just pass me off as a fear mongerer.
Yes, unfortunatly, the war in Iraq isn't helping this problem any, but social programs are the biggest problem. I'm sure everyone recognize the good intentions behind these programs, but we cannot afford to keep paying benefits to people at the rate we are right now. And although I think the intentions are good when voters support such programs, I believe many politicians see social programs as a way to buy votes with tax payer money.
11. The Department of Education should be abolished. Funding for schools should be done by the states ( or ideally by private citizens, though ideal situations are often not achieved). This may not save too much money, since state government spending may rise to about the extent that federal spending decreases, but it puts power closer to the people. All state legislators represent their state, but a state only has a handful of representatives in the house and only two in the senate. Besides, it's much harder to please 300 million people than just a few million. Using this same line of reasoning, much of what the federal government does should be left to the states.
Sorry for being long winded and a little off topic, but I had to address some of the previous comments, some of which were also a little off topic.
I'll try to take the time to address any arguments against what I've said, though I may not have the time.
Please folks, no matter what side of the argument you are on, grow the f#*$ up. I don't believe most people who have posted comments are worthy of the insults hurled at them. Certainly we can debate a topic without calling each other idiots. I guess civility is too much to ask for when discussing politics or any topic with which people disagree.
February 21st, 2007 at 12:29 pm300 - you raving freak - you want teachers to LIE instead of teach the truth?? Go live in Saudi Arabia, or some other hell-hole run by religious wackos - America wasn't made for people who want the King to tell them what to think and do.
a reminder : the generations that won WWI and WWII went to public schools. The guys at NASA who put other guys on the moon went to public schools.
I've never heard so many so wound up about throwing a baby out with the bathwater - it's the same mythical hysterical thinking that accompanies the debates on social security and medicare - it's weak, dishonest, counter-realistic, and if Paul's voucher system were ever put into place it would virtually guarantee the end of upward social mobility in the country, and institutionalize the already disgusting disparity between haves and have-nots.
Why in the hell would people who talk about loving their country want to hand it over, lock, stock, and barrel, to a monied aristocracy that answers to no one??? (that is what all these "privatize and deregulate" scams are really designed to do, so please find a way to understand that)
February 21st, 2007 at 12:40 pmSome of the comments here more than demonstrate were gov education has failed. Let me pick out just a few.
"Anyone else see the irony in this jackass being allowed to spout his filth on “Hannity and Colmesâ€, a propaganda outlet thinly disguised as a news and opinion show"
Bet you love larry king live tho?
Our next gem.
"That amount of property tax would put the value of your home at roughly $500,000. I’m having a hard time feeling sorry for you."
Class envy, wonder where that was learned from? If you even do work for a living who pays your sallary, bumb on street or guy with $500k home?
moving on...
"Wow, Fox News had an ignorant douchebag on? Whoda thunk it?"
Didn't hurt any of those brain cells did we?
....
“None Dare Call it Treason†by John Stormer (1964).
Comment by valiant venus — February 20, 2007 @ 1:47 pm
I hate to break it to you - but this is 2007.
Comment by unbelievable — February 20, 2007 @ 1:50 pm"
Hate to break it to you, there were many who seen what the left wanted to do many many years ago and it's right on track progressing very nicely today.
ah nevermind...go back to your american idiol and opera shows.
February 21st, 2007 at 1:02 pmWhat's with all the fuss? I don't see where he's wrong. Unions are extortionists when they play the sympathy card on home owners that teachers are horribly underpaid @ $60,000 /year. Cmon!!!
February 21st, 2007 at 1:03 pmWhat do they really expect to earn for 4 years of slacking off in college? I know!!! Become a Senator or Governor and make well over $100k. Stop being so damn gullible. These people get OFF on you being UN informed.
Instead of all the bickering from personal opinions, how about reading a well studied, well documented history of forced schooling?
First, a short biography of John Gatto:
"after being named New York City Teacher of the Year on three occasions. He quit teaching on the OP ED page of the Wall Street Journal in 1991 while still New York State Teacher of the Year, claiming that he was no longer willing to hurt children. Later that year he was the subject of a show at Carnegie Hall called "An Evening With John Taylor Gatto," which launched a career of public speaking in the area of school reform, which has taken Gatto over a million and a half miles in all fifty states and seven foreign countries. In 1992, he was named Secretary of Education in the Libertarian Party Shadow Cabinet, and he has been included in Who's Who in America from 1996 on. In 1997, he was given the Alexis de Tocqueville Award for his contributions to the cause of liberty, and was named to the Board of Advisors of the National TV-Turnoff Week."
And, his website:
February 21st, 2007 at 1:16 pmhttp://www.johntaylorgatto.com/index.htm
Boortz is Libertarian, not right-wing.
February 21st, 2007 at 1:24 pmUnbe, do you teach that it is OK for them to be racist? After all, that may be who they are.
Comment by hacker bob — February 20, 2007 @ 4:57 pm
Robert - no one is born a racist - they must be taught that. Therefore, it's not innately who they are.
Who they are however, is how they are born - gay, straight, male, female, black, white, yellow, etc.
In order for an analogy to qualify, it must be an equivalent. Racist behavior is not an analogy for being gay.
February 21st, 2007 at 1:25 pmnow the bad news.
I’m here all week!
Comment by RUCerious — February 20, 2007 @ 4:17 pm
That's never bad news :)
February 21st, 2007 at 1:27 pmI can attest to the fact, and can assure you wholeheartedly, that Hacker Bob is not gay. I should know, I am his wife.
Comment by Jeri — February 20, 2007 @ 5:26 pm
No one can know anything 100% about another person. I've worked with more than one gay man who was divorced. You think their wives weren't sure?
February 21st, 2007 at 1:29 pmRegarding #298.
I think back to my high school days and, like many of you, can remember some good teachers and some not so good. I had one particularly good teacher my junior year who made me want to be a teacher myself someday. Thinking on it, I thought it would be great the material doesn't change and that being the case each year you can really focus on the areas where kids struggle.
I have several friends who are teachers, some in the private sector (who make less than public school) and some in the public sector. I think unions hold some blame. There are stories of teachers who cannot be fired so they are simply passed around. If we're upset that students get passed through the system without performing (passing tests) then teachers shouldn't be given a free ride either. I think many teachers coast. You can tell the teachers who are passionate and those who are not.
Regarding pay, I work in the computer industry where things are constantly changing. I long to be a math teacher where things don't change. Last I checked 2+2 still equals 4, Italy is still shaped like a boot and Romeo and Juliet still die. The point is, teachers want more pay but aren't really required to do anything to illicit the higher pay. After the first year of lesson plans, it's smooth sailing. There the emotional arguments, "but these are our kids!!! Our future!!" But it's just that, an emotional argument. Everybody wants lowered health care costs, I don't see anyone claiming to want higher health care costs because "It's your health, it's the only thing you really own."
Ultimately teachers should be evaluated, just like many of us go through in our jobs. I have a performance evaluation that if I don't live up to, I'm let go. Teachers, with their union power, are rarely let go. Is taht all because they deserve to teach and performing or is the union stepping in and not allowing the school to provide the best educators to the students?
just some thoughts.....
February 21st, 2007 at 1:34 pmNo one can know anything 100% about another person. I’ve worked with more than one gay man who was divorced. You think their wives weren’t sure?
Comment by unbelievable — February 21, 2007 @ 1:29 pm
I think after knowing each other for 20 years, and being together for 19, married for 17, she has a pretty good idea who I am.
But you just have to get your little snips in, don't you.
February 21st, 2007 at 1:40 pmLeftist Leaders have an agenda - they might not have “shared†it with you.
Then exactly how are we supoosed to be supporting it if we don't know what it is? Sheesh, MA, think your paranoia all the way through before you post it.
It is spelled out concisely and cogently in “None Dare Call it Treason†a book you have not read.
You want us to accept a 43 year old book written by a couple of people as proof of some left-wing conspiracy? You really are paranoid, MA. Seek help.
(Do you make such sweeping statements in your classroom? You might have said, “I haven’t seen..†or “I don’t know the agenda of the Leftâ€. For the open-minded reputation of the Left, you don’t seem to accept dissent or alternative views very well.)
Comment by valiant venus — February 20, 2007 @ 7:05 pm
You're really twisting it...
There is no agenda of the left. A single 43 years old book does not prove there is one anymore than you prove that all transexuals are nasty, spiteful asses.
Rejecting dissenting views is what makes acceptance of your own viewpoint valid. Earth to MA... Hello? Anybody home?
Guess not...
February 21st, 2007 at 1:43 pmNot for long enough….
Comment by valiant venus — February 20, 2007 @ 8:04 pm
Considering this is a progressive site and I'm the progressive - you are certainly free to find some deranged slut blog where you'd be better at home...
February 21st, 2007 at 1:46 pmtom baker.
The United States ranks:
#15 in Reading literacy
#14 in Science literacy
#18 in Mathematical literacy
You should get together will unbelievable to figure out whether the system is working or not. And then consider whether defending the status quo for political posturing is worth sacrificing the future of American education.
I would love to live in a perfect, utopian world with no disparities. But you unrealistic dreams of parity has a cost. It is paralyzing those relagated to the public school system that might have a chance for success. Demanding the lowest common denominator - to ensure fairness - has generated the numbers (above) unbelievable laments. Rising the tide, raises all the boats. Putting a hole in everyone's boat, to ensure equality, sinks us all to the bottom.
February 21st, 2007 at 1:50 pmI am not attacking teachers themselves, but the system that has the teachers doing things that are not their job.
Comment by hacker bob — February 20, 2007 @ 8:14 pm
How do you know? Hmmm? Speculation?
February 21st, 2007 at 1:52 pmAs an educator, in general I agree with Neal. I do not belong to the NEA as I feel they are a group of teachers/union people that do not care about the welfare of the students they are entrusted to teach. They are for the money and benefits that they will decide. I have a serious problem with an organization that is supposed to have the well being of "American" children in their hearts but are willing to go on strike for their own benefits, as their students are at home learning from the TV set. Not all teachers are liberals or conservatives. Most teachers are good at what they do, however the paper work and governmental BS keeps teachers from teaching. We have too many psychologists telling people how to raise our kids. We have no type of discipline that works because we may hurt the students feelings. Bull. We have way too many syndromes now. It is difficult to reward the best of the students because we are being told everyone must get an award. Again, Bull. Standardized testing is a sham. So lets test all of the students one day out of the school year to determine if they are on grade level. What happened to trusting a teacher's judgement? Not there anymore. What a shame. Don't completely blame the teachers, rarely do they believe what the NEA and other teachers organizations put out in the press. Let the teachers teach and keep bureaucrats out of the schools. Place the blame on society which is in shambles because of our federal governments programs over the years. Keep the good teachers and get rid of the rest. Have a good day.
February 21st, 2007 at 1:54 pmI think after knowing each other for 20 years, and being together for 19, married for 17, she has a pretty good idea who I am.
No one can ever truly know another person that well. You're delusional to think otherwise. But that's not surprising considering many of your other thoughts...
But you just have to get your little snips in, don’t you.
Comment by hacker bob — February 21, 2007 @ 1:40 pm
You would consider reality to be 'snips'...
February 21st, 2007 at 1:56 pmUnbe, do you teach that it is OK for them to be racist? After all, that may be who they are.
Comment by hacker bob — February 20, 2007 @ 4:57 pm
My first post didn't appear... so I'll try again...
No one is born a racist. They have to be taught that behaviour. Therefore, it's not an innate trait that someone 'is' - like being gay, straight, white, black, male, female, etc.
In order for an analogy to be valid it must be an equivalent. Since no one is born racist, your analogy was not applicable to telling someone it's okay to be gay.
February 21st, 2007 at 2:00 pmI am not attacking teachers themselves, but the system that has the teachers doing things that are not their job.
Comment by hacker bob — February 20, 2007 @ 8:14 pm
How do you know? Hmmm? Speculation?
Comment by unbelievable — February 21, 2007 @ 1:52 pm
Lets see, I have children that have attended public school. I have friends that are teachers. I think I have a little insight.
You can't learn about life in a classroom. You learn about life, by living life.
You are the one that is delusional, you have the delusion of grandeur. That is why you are such an abrasive little bi*ch.
February 21st, 2007 at 2:03 pm11. For students not wishing to attend college, a full range of technical classes should be available, i.e. auto mechanic, plumbing, electrical, heating and air conditioning, masonry, construction, agriculture, drafting, culinary skills, office computer skills, etc.
11. Gang attire is not permitted in school - PERIOD.
Comment by valiant venus — February 21, 2007 @ 2:27 am
Um, 12 comes after 11...
By the way, teaching drafting, a dying profession, is pointless. Almost no one hires them anymore - as they want people with a working knowledge of their fields and not someone who can draw lines on a page. It's why I teach Architecture and someone else will be teaching Pre-Engineering next year...
February 21st, 2007 at 2:04 pmThe spam filter keeps eating my response and I don't know why...
Robert - people aren't born racists. They are born gay.
Get a better analogy.
February 21st, 2007 at 2:09 pmLets see, I have children that have attended public school. I have friends that are teachers. I think I have a little insight.
Not much. You really don't know what it's like until you're inside. The puiblic view of the profession is topical at best.
You can’t learn about life in a classroom. You learn about life, by living life.
Which your side is afraid to let them do. It's okay for them to hear the opinions of rappers on MTV, but not those of their teachers? Really Robert - do you ever think about anything you say before you say it?
You are the one that is delusional, you have the delusion of grandeur. That is why you are such an abrasive little bi*ch.
Comment by hacker bob — February 21, 2007 @ 2:03 pm
Name calling... My, my Robert... I see you've reached the height (or rather lack thereof) of your intellect rather quickly. Not surprising you resort to such traditional insults for women who are smarter than you and who refuse to let you be the man. Whatever respect I once had for you is now utterly gone. You're now a whack-a-troll...
February 21st, 2007 at 2:15 pmunbelievable. I'm a huge Frank Lloyd Wright fan. What do you think of his work?
February 21st, 2007 at 2:19 pmYou should get together will unbelievable to figure out whether the system is working or not. And then consider whether defending the status quo for political posturing is worth sacrificing the future of American education.
If we're declining in comparision to the rest of the world, then I'd say it's not working... How could you?
Again - accept this - it's not about political posturing - it's about what's best for the students! And not teaching them critical thinking skills is NOT in their best interest.
I would love to live in a perfect, utopian world with no disparities.
No one said that.
But you unrealistic dreams of parity has a cost. It is paralyzing those relagated to the public school system that might have a chance for success.
No Child Left Behind is Bush's baby. That's what's paralyzing the system. All the damn irrelevent data for standardized tests.
Demanding the lowest common denominator - to ensure fairness - has generated the numbers (above) unbelievable laments. Rising the tide, raises all the boats. Putting a hole in everyone’s boat, to ensure equality, sinks us all to the bottom.
Comment by paul — February 21, 2007 @ 1:50 pm
No, NCLB has generated those numbers.
No one on the left wants to put holes in everyone's boat. We want to plug the holes in those who have them. Sheesh paul, you're so pessimistic.
February 21st, 2007 at 2:37 pmNo one is born a racist.
I think you're right. My 7 year old and I were talking about the Civil War and the topic of slavery came up. To be honest, I was concerned about introducing the idea that white people would subjugate black people. My son thought the idea was curious. I asked him if he thought it was right for whites to enslave blacks. I was relieved when he said, "No. Black people should have their freedom, just like white people."
February 21st, 2007 at 2:38 pmI’m a huge Frank Lloyd Wright fan. What do you think of his work?
Comment by paul — February 21, 2007 @ 2:19 pm
He was a brilliant man. Crazy social life - but that's probably typical of most great designers.
I loved his philosophies on architecture being organic (a very liberal trait, I'd say :).
I showed my students a detail at Fallingwater where he cut a beam to go around a tree so that he wouldn't have to cut it down. Some of them said that it was crazy. Maybe. But then again, most people love his work...
Funny how he seems to be one who is revered by both conservatives and liberals alike...
February 21st, 2007 at 2:41 pmNot much. You really don’t know what it’s like until you’re inside. The puiblic view of the profession is topical at best.
So, I guess my friends that are teacher that tell me about their experiences do not know what they are talking about either?
Which your side is afraid to let them do. It’s okay for them to hear the opinions of rappers on MTV, but not those of their teachers? Really Robert - do you ever think about anything you say before you say it?
You have me confused with someone else. I do not let me children even watch MTV. See, you do not know me. I regulate what my kids watch, and listen too. If I feel it is inappropriate, They do not listen to it or watch it. When they are old enough and mature enough to make responsible decisions for themselves, they will have that freedom.
Furthermore, I have discussed this topic with my 12 year old (my oldest). I asked her how she would feel about teachers having classes on same sex couples, or on religion. Her answer was, that she will learn about God at church and so what if someone is gay or in a same sex marriage. She does not need a teacher to explain that to her, her parents already have.
Name calling… My, my Robert… I see you’ve reached the height (or rather lack thereof) of your intellect rather quickly. Not surprising you resort to such traditional insults for women who are smarter than you and who refuse to let you be the man. Whatever respect I once had for you is now utterly gone. You’re now a whack-a-troll…
Comment by unbelievable — February 21, 2007 @ 2:15 pm
You may want to put down that rock until you move out of that glass house.
As for having anything harsh to say about a woman that is smarter than me. Not at all. My wife is smarter than I am. There are many that are smarter than I am. Just as there are many men and women that are smarter than you are. there are also many men and women that are not as smart as you and I. Again, it is called life. I do accept the fact that you are more educated than I am, but education does not always equal intelligence.
Come to think of it, I do not even know if you are, in fact, a woman.
February 21st, 2007 at 2:46 pmI was relieved when he said, “No. Black people should have their freedom, just like white people.â€
Comment by paul — February 21, 2007 @ 2:38 pm
That's weird - I don't see that post you referenced...
Glad to hear that. I read a big study on how children have to be taught most prejudices, as we are not born with any.
They are burdens, frankly, because making an effort to avoid or disparage someone over something they don't control takes a lot of wasted energy.
February 21st, 2007 at 2:51 pmunbelievable. You're right, he is a genius. I live in Georgia, but I would move to Chattanooga and commute if I could live here (Shavin House):
http://otherself.chattablogs.com/archives/029308.html
I went to the Guggenheim in New York. Got in the lobby, but the ramp was closed for renovation. Beautiful. Lot of variation in his work, but it's all interesting.
Gotta go. Besides, I'm way off topic.
February 21st, 2007 at 2:59 pmSo, I guess my friends that are teacher that tell me about their experiences do not know what they are talking about either?
They know what they are talking about - you, not having lived it, don't. I have cousins who are teachers and a Vice Principal. They told me all kinds of stuff that I couldn't grasp untilI became one.
You have me confused with someone else. I do not let me children even watch MTV.
And they never, ever do things you don'tlet them do at their friends' houses? Or behind your back? You really are delusional.
See, you do not know me. I regulate what my kids watch, and listen too. If I feel it is inappropriate, They do not listen to it or watch it. When they are old enough and mature enough to make responsible decisions for themselves, they will have that freedom.
You have no idea that you can over-protect them to their detriment, right? I bet you don't even know what I'm talking about...
Furthermore, I have discussed this topic with my 12 year old (my oldest). I asked her how she would feel about teachers having classes on same sex couples, or on religion. Her answer was, that she will learn about God at church and so what if someone is gay or in a same sex marriage. She does not need a teacher to explain that to her, her parents already have.
So now, 12 year olds should be making public school policy?
Your narrow opinion is NOT the truth. Don't you want your children to be exposed to other points of view? Of course not - because then they might think something other than what you think. And people like you can't stand it when people disagree with you...
You may want to put down that rock until you move out of that glass house.
My history with MA is long and has nothing to do with YOU calling me a name. Show where I've called you that, and then you'll have a leg to stand upon.
As for having anything harsh to say about a woman that is smarter than me. Not at all. My wife is smarter than I am. There are many that are smarter than I am. Just as there are many men and women that are smarter than you are. there are also many men and women that are not as smart as you and I. Again, it is called life. I do accept the fact that you are more educated than I am, but education does not always equal intelligence.
Education aside, I'm still intelligent. See, they have tests for these sorts of things, and numbers don't lie. Intelligent isn't an opinion like pretty or nice. And even if yourealize it, you clearly don't like it, or you would be using such perjoratives to describe a woman who is willing to call you on your unthought-through bullshit.
Come to think of it, I do not even know if you are, in fact, a woman.
Comment by hacker bob — February 21, 2007 @ 2:46 pm
The fact that you'd question that shows your prejudices. Keep digging your pit deeper. I'm sure that'll gain your points with the other women here.
February 21st, 2007 at 3:06 pmI live in Georgia, but I would move to Chattanooga and commute if I could live here (Shavin House):
You fly for Delta? We're relative neighbors. I live in Georgia also.
I went to the Guggenheim in New York. Got in the lobby, but the ramp was closed for renovation. Beautiful. Lot of variation in his work, but it’s all interesting.
He was a true artist. I love his stained glass work...
But he wasn't much of an Engineer. Fallingwater would have been a royal fiasco (more than it was) structurally if the contractor hadn't ignored Wright's steel rebar calcs for the concrete beams spanning the water...
Gotta go. Besides, I’m way off topic.
Comment by paul — February 21, 2007 @ 2:59 pm
We're on the second page, past 300 comments now - it's not as much of a problem to go off topic.
Later!
February 21st, 2007 at 3:12 pmRight-Wing Radio Host: Teachers Unions Are ‘Much More Dangerous’ Than Al Qaeda...
Right-wing radio host Neal Boortz claimed that teachers unions are “destroying a generation†and are “much more dangerous than al Qaeda.†He stated, “Look, Al Qaeda, they could bring in a nuke into this country and kill 100,000 people with a ...
February 21st, 2007 at 3:13 pmAnother failure at abstract thinking, this time by the NEA...
The National Education Association and Think Progress have a hard time groking differences: Last night on Fox News’s Hannity and Colmes, right-wing radio host Neal Boortz claimed that teachers unions are "destroying a generation" and are "much mor...
February 21st, 2007 at 4:54 pmI don't know why but I'm always surprised about how idiotic liberals are. It's funny how some of you argue that Republicans want an unintelligent society to rule when that is exactly what the democrat base is.
February 21st, 2007 at 4:56 pmDay by day the rhetoric becomes more inflammatory. Each day America falls deeper into a confused, uneducated, reactive, backward , fearfull mindset. Is this my country? Are these my countrymen? Who will stop them? For the sake of our nation, who will stop them? What will it take? 40% of our population belive in the Rapture and the majority believe in a literal translation of the bible. We are a country where the majority are overfed, simpleminded fools. Our education institutions do nothing to raise the conscience of of our citizens. We deserve the Dark Ages this country is heading into. The American experiment is over. It failed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
February 21st, 2007 at 4:59 pmNo one can know anything 100% about another person. I’ve worked with more than one gay man who was divorced. You think their wives weren’t sure?
Comment by unbelievable — February 21, 2007 @ 1:29 pm
Oh, I am very sure my husband is not gay. I've known him since he was 17 years old, and to this day, he chases me around the house at every opportunity. I have no doubts about his sexuality.
Exactly what is your problem? Can you not get a man?
As far as your intelligence is concerned, I think everybody here knows how highly you think of yourself.
Jeri Perkovich
February 21st, 2007 at 5:10 pmHey JD, you imbred, fascist. Idiot liberals huh? Survey the univerisities...primarily liberal. But intelligence and education mean nothing to you. In your toothless, tobacco chewing, cousin screwing, backward world everything is upside down and backwards. Keep your idiocy between you and you inbred family. You are pathetic. I have always believed one should not bark back at a barking dog, but sometime a swift kick is called for.
February 21st, 2007 at 5:10 pmAnd they never, ever do things you don’tlet them do at their friends’ houses? Or behind your back? You really are delusional.
See. silly thing is, I instill certain values in my children, then I turn them out and trust in their decisions. I take the time to talk to my children and explain to them right and wrong behaviors. When they do wrong, the get punshed. When they do right, the get rewarded. Usually, they find makeing the right choices it's own reward. But I wil be sure to take child raising advice from a woman that refuses to have children because she can not get over her concern for herself.
As for over protecting them to their detriment.
You do not launch them into the world unprepaired. You gradually introduce them to the world. My children have freedom, but only to a level they can accept responsability for.
So now, 12 year olds should be making public school policy?
Are you saying that teachers and administrators should not listen to the students? Now, now that borders on Indoctrination, not education.
Your narrow opinion is NOT the truth. Don’t you want your children to be exposed to other points of view? Of course not - because then they might think something other than what you think. And people like you can’t stand it when people disagree with you…
My opinion is not as narrow as you would think. I do not think any persons or groups deserve a special status above another. I am of Yugoslavian decent. Why is there not Yugo-History month? I am not worried about my children being exposed to other opinion. I am concerned about HOW they are exposed to those opinions.
Education aside, I’m still intelligent. See, they have tests for these sorts of things, and numbers don’t lie. Intelligent isn’t an opinion like pretty or nice. And even if yourealize it, you clearly don’t like it, or you would be using such perjoratives to describe a woman who is willing to call you on your unthought-through bullshit.
I did not say you were not intelligent. And yes, I am aware of Intelligence testing. I tend to place rather high on those myself. As for the perjoratives I may use to describe a woman, I call 'em like I see 'em.
The fact that you’d question that shows your prejudices. Keep digging your pit deeper. I’m sure that’ll gain your points with the other women here.
Comment by unbelievable — February 21, 2007 @ 3:06 pm
I did not question that you are a woman. I stated a fact. I have nothing but words to reference. I could tell you that I was a 6' 4" Scandinavian, but you would have no way of proving or disproving that through words on a screen.
From another post of yours.
Can you prove CONCLUSEVLY that people are born gay? I do not know that they are or that they are not born that way. I can prove that they are born black, white, male female. Those genes have been isolated and identified. Have they found the gene that causes homosexuality?
February 21st, 2007 at 5:29 pmMr. Boortz is correct. American public education is appalling. Try to find a private sector business that could survive without the ability to fire an incompetent individual. Once in, a teacher can survive indefinitely with no fear of being let go for poor performance. Why do you think home schooling and private schools are flourishing? It is because so many parents, myself included are fed up with the mediocrity that is public education.
February 21st, 2007 at 5:36 pmI have teenage girls. They are learning drivel in school. All is PC. They cannot tell me about the Boer Wars, Iwo Jima or Archduke Ferdinand. I have to instruct them on history as I know it. They cannot find Tibet on a map. Appalling. This is the NEA. I am a single dad and am unable to home school or I would. But they know youtube and myspace very well indeed!
February 21st, 2007 at 5:39 pmMost of the people that have left derogatory comments about Neal Boortz obviously have no idea who he is, what he does, what his political background is, or how much sense he makes.
It's comical to see people here spouting off without any facts whatsoever.
February 21st, 2007 at 6:28 pmI couldn't agree more. Public schools are dumbing down our kids. That was the goal from the outset.
February 21st, 2007 at 7:53 pmFirst, I would love to be a fly on the wall when Mr. or Mrs. Hannity have their next teacher/student conference for their kiddos. It will be interesting. I assume their children do not go to public schools but it will still be a bit frosty, I should think.
Next, to all the parents who complain about public schools -- and who don't not "know where Tibet is." Do your children read? Do they watch interesting movies with you? Do you discuss current events with them? We discussed concepts of "good and evil" and World War II after reading my children read Harry Potter. I discussed the colonization of the "New World" after we watched "The Pirates of the Caribbean." We discuss politics, political history and civics over the dinner table. There is no excuse for saying that you expect schools to teach your children everything unless you are an extremely poor person. And, forgive me if I am making a guess, but if you are on this site, you are complaining about a teacher's union and you know about Tibet, I am not convinced you are struggling member of the working poor.
While the poor teachers have to satisfy the stupid obligations of the GW Bush's "No Child Left Behind," without enough money, parents and "the village" need to take up the slack.
Don't blame the teachers for your failings as a parent or as a citizen when don't spend enough quality time with them or you don't insist on better schools for your children. And insist on more help from the government.
February 21st, 2007 at 8:47 pmOh, I am very sure my husband is not gay. I’ve known him since he was 17 years old, and to this day, he chases me around the house at every opportunity. I have no doubts about his sexuality.
Robert, it's suspicious that this is you pretending to be your wife. Normal women don't speak like this.
If it is your wife - how much of a raging pussy are you?
Exactly what is your problem? Can you not get a man?
Maybe you aren't woman enough to value yourself in terms of yourself, so you do it in terms of men, but that's your problem not mine. And it's why I never have problems getting men - or have to settle for one like robert.
As far as your intelligence is concerned, I think everybody here knows how highly you think of yourself.
Comment by Jeri — February 21, 2007 @ 5:10 pm
The numbers don't lie. If you feel threatened by that, that's your problem. Don't insult me because you can't argue the issues and have a girl for a husband.
February 21st, 2007 at 8:51 pmSee. silly thing is, I instill certain values in my children, then I turn them out and trust in their decisions. I take the time to talk to my children and explain to them right and wrong behaviors. When they do wrong, the get punshed. When they do right, the get rewarded. Usually, they find makeing the right choices it’s own reward.
That'sone of the most naive things I have ever hard. I bet you routinely say "Not my child"...
The reality is that children will try things - regardless of what their parents tell them. It's part of the right of passage of growing up.
What - you were never a child?
But I wil be sure to take child raising advice from a woman that refuses to have children because she can not get over her concern for herself.
It's not about being a parent. It's about having been a child to know what it's like.
Again, silly boy, your pathetic attempts at insults are blatantly old school fundy and sooooo cliche.
I don't have children because as long as there are hundreds of thousands in teh foster care system who don't have parents, we really don't need to be creating any more, because the world is overpopulated, and because I have to help raise your ignorant children.
It's called selflessness - something you clearly are not aware of...
You do not launch them into the world unprepaired. You gradually introduce them to the world. My children have freedom, but only to a level they can accept responsability for.
But if you shelter them from MTV, I assure you, you're over-protecting them to their detriment... Credible child psychologists say that you should watch it with them and discuss it with them, so that when they do watch it over at their friends' houses, they won't be uninformed...
But, you seem to think that you are the ultimate parent who is the first to raise a child and knows everything.... Nevermind what experts say... Or the fact that I see the results of ignorant parents raising ignorant children. Those are the kids who grab for the forbidden fruits the fastest.
Are you saying that teachers and administrators should not listen to the students? Now, now that borders on Indoctrination, not education.
You're outdoing yourself on ridiculousness. You want a child who has only ever been coached by YOU to have a voice in how the system is run. That's self-absorbed, as usual.
I think the students, collectively, want the path of least resistence. My students routinely beg for me to push back test or proeject dates to give them more time. You're saying I should do that. You explain the problems we have with the system today - in that children are running their parents... Pathetic.
My opinion is not as narrow as you would think.
That's just downright laughable. You're almost as narrow as it gets.
I do not think any persons or groups deserve a special status above another. I am of Yugoslavian decent. Why is there not Yugo-History month?
Only a bigot would think to say that.
How many Yugoslavians have been oppressed in America Robert? Sheesh... You always bash the victim, and then throw yourself on the floor and cry like one...
I am not worried about my children being exposed to other opinion. I am concerned about HOW they are exposed to those opinions.
Oh boy - you're one of those. I have a student with parents like you. He's getting ready to graduate and because he's been sheltered, he has no street smarts. Despite being smart, he's scared about how he's going to handle being away from his parents. He should be. I'm worried for him.
I did not say you were not intelligent. And yes, I am aware of Intelligence testing. I tend to place rather high on those myself.
Yes - you did.
I doubt you place 'rather high' on them. You have no critical thinking skills.
As for the perjoratives I may use to describe a woman, I call ‘em like I see ‘em.
Typical chauvanist pig - you think a woman is supposed to fit a mold, or you have some righ to insult her. This is the 21st century robert - try joining it.
Besides, you're a way bigger b*tch than I am.
I did not question that you are a woman. I stated a fact. I have nothing but words to reference. I could tell you that I was a 6′ 4″ Scandinavian, but you would have no way of proving or disproving that through words on a screen.
Yes you did. Stop lying. Anyone can just scroll back and read it.
You act like someone with a Napoleon complex - I doubt you're more than 5'-10".
Can you prove CONCLUSEVLY that people are born gay? I do not know that they are or that they are not born that way. I can prove that they are born black, white, male female. Those genes have been isolated and identified. Have they found the gene that causes homosexuality?
Comment by hacker bob — February 21, 2007 @ 5:29 pm
Obviously you don't know many, if any, gay people. Talk to a few. Talk to some who have committed suicide, been married, diagnozed with AIDS.
Then, if that doesn't settle it for you, crawl out of your tiny little cave and read some studies. A doctor in the Netherlands did an intersting autopsy study on the brains of eight transsexuals over a decade ago that launched several other studies on the brain. There are several medical studies that show that gay men have aspects of their brains that are the similar to a woman's brain. It causes them to think like women - including being attracted to men.
Even if they aren't born that way (but they are) - it's none of your business. And telling your children that they are not normal people who should be ridiculed or shunned is a lie. And if it turns out one of your children is gay - what kind of parent would that make you for telling them homosexuality is deviant or wrong?
Why do the wrong people breed...
February 21st, 2007 at 9:14 pmTalk to some who have attempted to commit suicide,
Damn head cold...
February 21st, 2007 at 9:22 pmIt’s comical to see people here spouting off without any facts whatsoever.
Comment by Kevin — February 21, 2007 @ 6:28 pm
Considering all the facts you included in your post Kevin, a reasonable person could only conclude that it is YOU who is spouting off without any facts whatsoever (by the way, whatsoever is redundant - you'd already covered the realm of entirety in your use of the word 'any').
February 21st, 2007 at 9:25 pmUnbelievable,
You are talking out your a$$. You know absolutely NOTHING about me! As far as me being threatened by the likes of you, that is too ridiculous to waste my time commenting on. BTW, where are all these high IQ scores you are talking about? I've seen no numbers to back up your claims. Just some more of your a$$-talking, I am sure.
Jeri Perkovich
February 21st, 2007 at 11:33 pm#343 - All you could comment on #296 was the fact drafting is a dying profession - and I incorrectly numbered a list when I made an insertion? No opinion on salary suggestions and improving poor schools? Getting parents into the equation? Dealing fairly with disruptive students? Firing lousy teachers and adminstrators? You're pathetic.
February 21st, 2007 at 11:35 pmJeri - unbelievables' Mom told her how proud she was of the 100 unbelievable scored on her IQ test. (Mom hoped to build unbelievable's self-esteem.) But look at the bright side - she has chosen "selflessly" not to reproduce. And as long as parents are aware of her attempts to impart "street smarts" on their children, perhaps the damage she inflicts can be minimized. Unfortunately, I find too many young children with way too many "street smarts".
February 21st, 2007 at 11:45 pmya know, I just glanced at some of these comments. If you aren't 100% pro-NEA your an &$#hole is what some would have it.
Truth is, teachers get paid a hell of a lot: don't forget, they get off 3 months of the year. A $40,000 salary comes to a little more than 4,000 a month.
But wait, there's more!
Included in this wonderful package is Insurance coverage. As an independent, self-employed person that coverage for just one person (me) will run upwards of $300/month--and that's being conservative.
Now, we're constantly being told how expensive it is to educate kids. Usually a few thousand per student, per year. Numbers seem to go from $8,000+. Yet, these unions scream and cry when a parent of little means--I'm not talking annual salaries over $50,000, more like $35,000--want a voucher for a private school because the local kid corral is poor environment.
What's the big problem of letting that person spend his tax money on a better/smaller school? (Besides taking the cash out of the union, I mean).
Were it not late night, and if I thought I might actually spend the time in useful dialog, I could spend a few precious hours and make a solid case for the NEA's decimation of American Education.
Instead, here's the short of it: the NEA is a business. As so many socialist/progressives bemoan, businesses are out to make money, not serve a "noble cause." It sucks, but there it is. Commerce is about exchange of goods that benefits both. In the Union's case, that exchange is forced monetary fiat (whether or not you want, or are in, a union you MUST pay union dues), protection of jobs (at all costs), and protection of the marketplace, in this case education.
It's how monopolies work. Monopolies CAN NOT FUNCTION WITHOUT GOVERNMENT SANCTION. (Untaught in high-school history is the passage of laws that protected AT&T, Getty, and, now wending it's way through Congress, Phillip Morris). For every "monopoly" you'll find laws that entrench the monopolizer.
If you're so freakin' certain public schools are better, why don't you back positions that let them compete, without interference, with other options. Would your local school do as well if all the tax money was removed and replaced with a regular plan to purchase services?
Would it REALLY cost upwards of 8G to educate your child, per year?
Before you blast this post, consider your position carefully. Do you support the current system from a balanced, well researched perspective, or have you fallen into the "party line" trap of dismissing alternatives out of hand? Many people do, so don't be ashamed if you haven't researched "the enemy's side."
Lest you think I'm some right wing-nut, I DO see great value in a public education system--but not the current one. It is too loaded down in indoctrination, centralized (govt) control, union marketing (of their Product), and other gross inefficencies.
The NEA's job will NEVER be "to improve education." Like every other union it's primary mission is to protect the members and, if possible, help them get more days off, more pay, more benefits, and less responsibility for their lack-luster behavior.
When you read that any given union seeks "concessions" from it's employer, you really should examine the ideas flowing about.
February 22nd, 2007 at 12:07 amThat’sone of the most naive things I have ever hard. I bet you routinely say “Not my childâ€â€¦
Actually, I frequently say "It won't be my child"
It won't be my child that is roaming the streets at all hours of the night.
It won't be my child that falls into the drug trap.
It won't be my child that is a statistic of teen pregnancy.
You know why I say that. Because I talk TO my children. I spend time WITH my children. My children know I am THEIR champion. They know I am there to defend them, protect them, and provide for them. You know, good old fashion family values.
I don’t have children because as long as there are hundreds of thousands in teh foster care system who don’t have parents, we really don’t need to be creating any more, because the world is overpopulated, and because I have to help raise your ignorant children.
How many of these children you are so concerned about have you adopted? I would guess NONE. That is someone else’s problem, right?
It’s called selflessness - something you clearly are not aware of…
Yep, that is why everything I do is for the betterment of my family, community, and country.
I did not say you were not intelligent. And yes, I am aware of Intelligence testing. I tend to place rather high on those myself.
Yes - you did.
Actually I said that we all know that education does not equal intelligence. Here is the EXACT quote:
Read into it what you like.
Typical chauvanist pig - you think a woman is supposed to fit a mold, or you have some righ to insult her. This is the 21st century robert - try joining it.
Nothing chauvinistic about it. I am not talking about women in general. A woman, singular form. I was talking about you and you alone. If you were a man, I might have called you a d*ck. There is no mold that a woman MUST fit into. And I do have the right to insult those that insult me.
I did not question that you are a woman. I stated a fact. I have nothing but words to reference. I could tell you that I was a 6′ 4″ Scandinavian, but you would have no way of proving or disproving that through words on a screen.
Yes you did. Stop lying. Anyone can just scroll back and read it.
Nope, sorry. I said:
I stated that I have no proof, other than your say so, that you are a woman. Now, if I said something like "I am not sure you are a woman", or "I do not think you are a woman" it would be a different story.
And as I have said before, I am a 5' 9" Yugoslavian.
Obviously you don’t know many, if any, gay people. Talk to a few. Talk to some who have committed suicide, been married, diagnozed with AIDS.
I have talked to many people that are gay. One of my old office partners was a lesbian, and one of the best friends I have ever had. I also have a sister that is HIV+. Did you know that homosexuals are not the only people that get AIDS? So do IV drug users.
Even if they aren’t born that way (but they are) - it’s none of your business.
You are right about that.
And telling your children that they are not normal people who should be ridiculed or shunned is a lie.
I have never told my children that nor do I endorse that kind of behavior. Can you point to a single instance where I said that people that are gay are not normal?
And if it turns out one of your children is gay - what kind of parent would that make you for telling them homosexuality is deviant or wrong?
Again, read above.
You’re outdoing yourself on ridiculousness. You want a child who has only ever been coached by YOU to have a voice in how the system is run. That’s self-absorbed, as usual.
OK, you would rather a child that has been coached by YOU to have a voice in the system? I thought part of education was to have an EXCHANGE of ideas. You can not think critically if you are spoon fed what to think. The best teachers I had were the ones that allowed some input from the students. Why? Because I learned the most from the exchange of ideas. Again, talking TO the students, not AT the students.
Only a bigot would think to say that.
Sorry, a bigot places one group above another.
How many Yugoslavians have been oppressed in America Robert? Sheesh… You always bash the victim, and then throw yourself on the floor and cry like one…
I'm sorry. Blacks were the only group oppressed in the US. What about the Irish? What about Native Americans? Where are their months? You do not seem to understand that equal means just that, equal. You can not put three pounds on one end of the scale, two pounds in the other end, and hope for them to balance. Science dictates otherwise.
And the point you are the most wrong about is that you raise my kids. Teachers do not raise my children. I do. My wife does. We do not depend on society to do it. We especially do not depend on teachers to do it.
I know I am not the only parent to raise children, and I never claimed to be the best at it. But I also at this time have no need for concern. My daughter will come to me and say "Daddy, I like this song, can you make me a CD of it?" The first thing I do is listen to it. If I can not understand the lyrics, I google them and read the lyrics. If I do not think it is appropriate for her age, I explain to her WHY it is not appropriate. Yep, I am ACTIVLEY involved. Not passively. Again, good old family values.
You say that I can not understand what it is like to be a teacher unless I am in those shoes. Guess what, I am a teacher 365 days a year. My job does not end with the school bell and I do not get summer vacations.
And you can not even begin to imagine what it is like to be a parent until you are one. That is a fact you can not deny.
February 22nd, 2007 at 12:28 am[...] then there’s FOX News. According to Think Progress, someone named Neal Boortz claimed that teachers unions are “destroying a generation” [...]
February 22nd, 2007 at 1:24 amBRAVO, Bob and Jeri!!!
February 22nd, 2007 at 1:36 amTeachers did 9/11... amirite?
February 22nd, 2007 at 7:37 amIts good to hear someone speak the truth. Government schools are in the toilet and we parents(and those without children) are forced to keep pouring money down that toilet.
Boortz is so right. He didn't say anything negative about teachers; its the UNIONS that are the problem. Quit trying to twist his words.
February 22nd, 2007 at 8:09 amBascially, Democraps believe that money should be taken from wealthy rebublicans and Given to poor democraps. They rant about CEOs making too much while providing 1000s of jobs but not about the real wealthy snobs. Not people like movie stars, who earn 1000 times more than most people who work on the movie, or sports stars, who earn 250 times more than the support people on the team, or rock stars like Bono who pays the minimun to his roadies while he makes tens of millions. Oh yeah, their democraps so they don't have to pay fair wages or cap their earnings.
Why should a terrible teacher have life-time employment? If I could afford it, I would pull my kids out of public school today. Over half of the children at my kids school don't speak english at home. Some don't speak it at school. The familes by and large pay no property taxes because their rent. They degrade the education my children but the teacher nazis said I should have no other options.
February 22nd, 2007 at 8:29 amActually goverment provided education to the masses is one of the planks of the Communist Manifesto. Anyone who wields the control of education can wield quite a bit of power over the development of our children. Teachers Unions at this time, (they didn't always do this), wield a lot of control over how children are educated via the pressure they exert on Federal politicians through lobbying and campaign contributions. Hence, they are a special interest. Since Republicans and Democrats are missing the boat on this, why not go Libertarian and get the Federal Government out of the education business and back to within their limits of power as prescribed in the US Constitution.
February 22nd, 2007 at 8:53 amI agree with Boortz.
A few points...
The Teachers Unions Are ruining the educational system, not the teachers. Don't mix his words
It is your responsibility as a parent to educate you child. Not my responsibility as a taxpayer. Anyone that would not do everything in their power to send their kid to private school is a prime example of the failure of public schooling.
Shut off your cable, don't buy that new plasma TV, stop smoking, stop buying new iPODS.
You would be amazed at how much money you could come up with for private school.
February 22nd, 2007 at 10:08 amGuys, you're wasting your time correcting these nimrods about Boortz's political affiliations. Anyone who doesn't drink the reactionary leftist koolaid without question, and doesn't repeat the socialist party line verbatim, is a "right winger" to these lemmings.
And Boortz is precisely correct about the NEA and the DoE. We don't have any equivalent to that nonsense in Canada, where education is left up to the provinces, and the result is a far more efficient, responsive, and culturally appropriate set of school systems administered at the provincial and local levels. Last time I checked teachers were getting paid more up here, too, and students were getting better grades. So much for the wonders of federal command and control and the negotiation advantages of monolithic unions...
February 22nd, 2007 at 10:41 amI realize reading the superficial outrage of Dems and progressives that YOU are an excellent example of the comments of Boortz. NOOOooo - teachers (and their powerful union) are not responsible for 9/11. They are partially responsible for dismal educational tones and standards. The majority of responsibility lies at the feet of parents, who elect school boards and fail to help their children prepare for school. Too many poarents expect the schools to feed, teach and civilize our kids. Most of that is the PARENT'S responsibility.
But Humanists have been on a campaign for over 50 years to radicalize our schools and in many areas they are succeeding. From the Humanist Manifesto - 1933:
"Eleventh - Man will learn to face the crises of life in terms of his knowledge of their naturalness and probability. Reasonable and manly attitudes will be fostered by education and supported by custom. We assume that humanism will take the path of social and mental hygiene and discourage sentimental and unreal hopes and wishful thinking."
(emphasis added) - from American Humanist
Signed, John Dewey, and 33 other signers
John Dewey, of Dewey decimal fame, is almost singlehandedly responsible for the destruction of contemporary public education.
February 22nd, 2007 at 10:58 amBoortz is absolutely correct. Unfortunately, out of pure ignorance, (I'm a product of the same brainwashing system) I've subjected three young minds to the tripe of the government schools. My eldest who wants to be a school teacher (even though I have discouraged teaching in the public system) had to take over a year of remedial studies before she could get started on her education degree. The Teacher's Union have destroyed generations.
February 22nd, 2007 at 10:59 amI hope we can all agree, then, that the firefighters' union is destroying firefighting, the police union is destroying policing, the electricians' union is destroying wiring, the plumbers' union is destroying our toilets, the musicians' union is destroying music, etc. Oh wait, none of that is happening, is it?
To blame unions for stupid children is beyond illogical. Unions exist to advocate for the rights of the employees who are covered by its collective bargaining agreement. Nothing more.
To those of you who feel that tenure is a problem - do you have any idea what the tenure law in your state says? I very much doubt it. Tenure is nothing more than a guarantee of due process. Tenured teachers can be and are dismissed all the time. All it takes is for management to document and prove the teacher's deficiciencies. Wow, that must be some kind of communist plot!
But don't let the facts confuse you. Just keep listening to Hannity and Boortz.
February 22nd, 2007 at 11:15 amActually, Jeanette, the police and fire unions are helping destroy the places they live. In California, many police and fire unions have negotiated 90% pensions. Of course we have our fabulously liberal Legislature to thank for most of the idiocy that comes from Sacramento.
Contemporary unions exist to protect the mediocre and incompetent. (Once upon a time, unions WERE necessary to protect workers. Nowadays, their are LAWS up the wazoo for that very purpose.)
February 22nd, 2007 at 11:23 amYou're referring to anti-discrmination laws maybe? Yeah, that's the ticket. File a complaint with the EEOC and wait for months, maybe years, to get a result. Works really well.
Or OSHA? Another nightmarish bureaucracy.
I fail to see how a 90% pension is destroying the place anyone lives. Instead of complaining about the benefits other people get, why not organize? Contemporary unions exist to protect pay, benefits and working conditions. There are procedures in any contract for dismissing incompetent employees. Anyone in a union knows this. Management also sits at the bargaining table, and contracts reflect that fact.
February 22nd, 2007 at 11:38 amIt is too bad that the conservative/hell bent on Armagedon right do not want to pay for education of the masses - and want to return to education of the "elite" that existed before the Reformation and implementation of public (free) education.
February 22nd, 2007 at 12:26 pmJeanette - The fact you "fail to see" the donkey in the room doesn't mean the donkey isn't there. California taxpayers are being crushed by the public employees unions.
How many chances does an incompetent person deserve? Why should I work harder than the gal next to me if I know were making the same money? (Altruism says I should work harder to demonstrate pride in my work - reality says altruism won't last when the mediocre are protected and rewarded.)
But the GOOD thing about unions? Those unions provide jobs for people who can't get jobs in the real world.
February 22nd, 2007 at 12:29 pmSecond Comment - As for your take on unions -- If employers and so called "compassionate conservatives" treated employees and others ethically and with a fair hand - reasonable compensation, grievance procedures, etc. there would be no need for unions - but since this is not an ideal world - unions like courts, police, etc. are a necessity.
February 22nd, 2007 at 12:30 pmValiant Venus is a star in a sea of incomptent losers! I'm glad you think so highly of yourself.
An incompetent person deserves to have the allegations against him or her documented and proven. Nothing more and nothing less.
As for the donkey in the room, I guess you fail to see one as well. Those union contracts have signatures on them - both the union's and management's.
February 22nd, 2007 at 12:34 pm"Valiant Venus is a star in a sea of incomptent losers!"
Generally, people who START with the ad hominum attack have nothing new to add to the argument. You did not disappoint!
February 22nd, 2007 at 1:13 pmThe radio host compares teacher unions to al-Queda to illustrate both want to control by force. Unions for teachers make demands reasonable or unreasonable, and if not met "walk out" resulting in no school for children. Not a good comparison because al-Queda Islamic terrorist have no rules on how to kill innocent people.
February 22nd, 2007 at 1:34 pmWhy doesn't the U.S. renovate our education system? The facts are that there are countries in the world that are doing a very good job educating their kids, so why not send some of our administrators and teachers to train in other countries so we can adopt their methods.
The problem with the U.S. schools is larger than just teachers and administrators though it is our whole society. If this country is to keep it's economic and technological dominance in the world it starts with the school system, and to make statements like Boortz's undermines the real debate that should be going on about how to fix that system.
February 22nd, 2007 at 1:39 pmWhy, oh why, would he ever say anything so abhorrent? I am an adult education teacher...now. I used to teach kids, but I had to leave it. It's a profession that will drive you into the ground if you care to much. They certainly don't pay enough to care if one doesn't in the first place considering all the hours involved. I could go on, but I think this piece says it succinctly.
"Let Me See . . .
Let me see if I've got this right. You want me to go into that room with all those kids and fill their every waking moment with a love for learning. Not only that, I'm to instill a sense of pride in their ethnicity, behaviorally modify disruptive behavior, observe them for signs of abuse and T-shirt messages.
I am to fight the war on drugs and sexually transmitted diseases, check their backpacks for guns and raise their self-esteem. I'm to teach them patriotism, good citizenship, sportsmanship and fair play, how to balance a checkbook and how to apply for a job.
I am to check their heads occasionally for lice, maintain a safe environment, recognize signs of potential antisocial behaviour, offer advice, write letters of recommendation for student employment and scholarships, encourage respect for the cultural diversity of others, and, oh yes, always make sure that I give the girls in my class 50 percent of my attention.
I'm required by my contract to be working on my own time summer and evenings, at my own expense toward advanced certification and a master's degree; and outside of regular teaching hours, I am to attend committee and faculty meetings and participate in staff development training to maintain my employment status.
I am to be a paragon of virtue larger than life, such that my very presence will awe my students into being obedient and respectful of authority. I am to pledge allegiance to supporting family values, a return to the basics, and to my current administration. I am to incorporate technology into the learning, and monitor all Web sites while providing a personal relationship with each student.
I am to decide who might be potentially dangerous and/or liable to commit crimes in school or who is possibly being abused, and I can be sent to jail for not mentioning these suspicions. I am to make sure all students pass the provincial and locally mandated testing, whether or not they attend school on a regular basis or complete any of the work assigned.
Plus, I am expected to make sure that all of the students with disabilities are guaranteed a free and equal education, regardless of their mental or physical handicap. I am to communicate frequently with each student's parent by letter, phone, newsletter and/or the Internet.
I'm to do all of this with just a piece of chalk, a computer, a few books, a bulletin board, a 40 minute more-or-less plan time and a big smile, all on a salary that is less than a babysitter makes, if you add up all the hours and students involved. Is that all? "
(I apologize for the lack of a reference. If anyone knows its author, please post it)
February 22nd, 2007 at 1:47 pmWhy don’t we improve the public schools for the benefit of all instead of privatizing schools for the benefit of the wealthy? Another short-sighted Republican policy.
Comment by And You Thought REAGAN Was Stupid
Apparently you know nothing about this issue. The people on the low end of the income scale are those that benefit the MOST by a school voucher program because the wealthy can already afford to send their kids to private school. It is proven to work and provides children with a better education, while at the same time it reduces class size in public schools.
So the question is: Why do Liberals oppose a quality education?
February 22nd, 2007 at 2:12 pmIs it because they are beholden to the teachers union, even if it means sacrificing their childs education?
Or is it because they desire to continue to hold people back so that they can maintain the voter base?
If these two bozos think the teachers unions are so dangerous, they should be given a choice of being dropped in the middle of a teachers meeting or an Al Quada camp in Afganistan. Then se if their story changes.
February 22nd, 2007 at 2:45 pmThe problem with the U.S. schools is larger than just teachers and administrators though it is our whole society. If this country is to keep it’s economic and technological dominance in the world it starts with the school system, and to make statements like Boortz’s undermines the real debate that should be going on about how to fix that system.
Comment by matt — February 22, 2007 @ 1:39 pm
Liberals are not interested in fixing the problem.
They are more interested in maintaining the institution of public education than they are maintaining a quality education.
It is the same as social security, they want to save the institution of social security, even if it means that it goes bankrupt and provides no "security" whatsoever.
You can see it time and time again....they'd rather have the issue than actually fix the problem. if they fix the problem then they no longer have the political issue to help them get votes.
February 22nd, 2007 at 3:12 pmRestore Discipline in the home, restore Discipline in the schools, restore co-operation between schools and parents, restore communications between the parents and children. Communication, co-operation, discipline and respect for others begins in the home.
February 22nd, 2007 at 3:35 pmNOtalib - we can hear what Rush says on the radio - no need for you to hang around parroting it, k?
February 22nd, 2007 at 5:59 pmVenus, I suppose that saying that unions exist for those who can't get jobs in the real world isn't an ad hom where you come from. OK, whatever.
Why should I work harder than the gal next to me if I know were making the same money?
Why should I work harder if I have no job security, little or no health insurance, no paid vacation or sick leave, and salaries are left to the whims of management? Is that your idea of a great employment situation? This is what makes people productive?
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how tenure guarantees a teacher a job for life, and how advocating for employee rights is destroying education. Please, be specific. Give examples.
February 22nd, 2007 at 10:05 pmBusinesses fix problems
February 23rd, 2007 at 12:25 amteachers work too hard, the problems are of low budgets, fast paced life, lack of planning and strikes, and kids. Not enough time for self never mind striking (kids)
Did any of you notice Neal Boortz was talking about the UNION and not the teachers?
February 23rd, 2007 at 4:27 amHow can you separate the two? The union is made up of teachers. Local associations are made up of teachers. The board of directors of state affiliates are made up of teachers. The paid staff of those affiliates are, for the most part, made up of former teachers. Teachers who pay dues to belong to their union obviously believe in what their union doing. So, when someone says that the teachers' union is worse than al Qaeda, that person is saying that teachers are worse than al Qaeda. Not much wiggle room there.
February 23rd, 2007 at 9:21 amHe is absolutely correct. The teachers union allows for no accountability on the part of the teachers. It is totally focused on tenure. So if you can't be fired and are rewarded for sticking around, it seems like a win/win. The losers? The children! I pay the equivalent of a persons average salary in property taxes (most goes to school) and live in what is touted as one of the finest school districts in PA..........but I have chosen to send my daughter to private school because the public systems rewards mediocrity in our children and is afraid to establish strong standards of behavior (other than the OBVIOUS no weapons policies!! and that is only because of Columbine type incidents).
February 23rd, 2007 at 9:31 amAs for the comments of some regarding how republicans feel about unions..........wrong again.............I AM a republican and I OWN AND OPERATE a union company. I EXPECT to treat my employees fairly. What pisses me off, is not being able to terminate the employment of a non productive employee.
Finallly, there is another grossly important factor that is not being addressed regarding education...............parents...........teachers cannot teach a group of children effectively if they are not fully supported by the parents and the parents support appropriate behavior in and out of the classroom.
We have a LONG way to go. in this country!
One additional thought.................let's implement the voucher system and watch what happens!!!!!!! Just watch as the decent people in our country (poor and affluent alike) move their kids to schools that perform at high levels. This would allow it all to speak for itself! If parents believe their kids are getting the best education in public schools, then they will choose to leave them there...............you watch as they leave public schools in droves..............it would force these schools to COMPETE for children or be forced to close.............OH, WAIT, I FORGOT, WE CANNOT CLOSE A PUBLIC SCHOOL FOR POOR PERFORMANCE CAN WE.......BECAUSE THE TENURED TEACHERS ARE GUARANTEED A JOB REGARDLESS OF PERFORMANCE!!!!!!
February 23rd, 2007 at 9:36 amReally? You have no procedure in place to dismiss an employee? Why is that? Does management at your company not have a bargaining team? You're completely helpless in this situation?
February 23rd, 2007 at 9:37 amHave you read your state's tenure law? Do you know what it says? Where I live, tenured teachers can be and are dismissed for poor performance.
February 23rd, 2007 at 9:45 amNeal Boortz uses a cheap shot to further an ultra conservative agenda of weakening the public's perception and support for their public schools. He accuses the American Professional Educators, the American Federation of Teachers, the National Education Association of ruining children. What he neglects to reveal is they do not bear responsibility for making educational policy or financing. Usually, education policy and curriculum content are determined, not by the unions, but by non-educator politicians. In addition, he failed to mention that the unions do not educate the teachers, certify the educators, do not hire them, and do not develop and implement evaluations systems. That is the work of politicians and private citizens , some of whom have the stated objective so clearly articulated by Grover Norquist when he said, to paraphrase, the intent is to undermine confidence in public education.
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:19 amWhile it is popular among some commentators on the American condition to blame the unions and education associations for the unsubstantiated claims of failure by our schools, it is neither factual or fair.
If Fox is truly interested in being seen as presenting the news "fairly", it will point out to its viewing audience what it is that the NEA 'bares' to the public, which is the true needs of the educators and the children in our public schools.
And just how many students does the Dept of Education educate? Zero! There is no need for it. Take the billions we spend on this jobs program for Washington beuracrats and give it to the states to (only) use to build new schools, hire quality teachers etc. If we abolished the Dept of Education tomorrow there is no way it would negatively affect the quality, or lack of, education in this country.
February 23rd, 2007 at 1:52 pmAnd to all you dopes criticizing FoxNews. Hannity and Colmes is an OPINION show, not a news show. Get that through your dense liberal skulls. The Left is where the real Fascists are....speech codes, hate crime laws, political correctness, sensitivity training et al....casually calling anyone who disagrees: racist, sexist, homophobic, islamophobic etc. The real threat to Liberty in the USA is the Far Left. Only an idiot is blind to that.
AS A MEMBER OF MY PROFESSIONAL ORGANIZATIONS, I AM THE KEA AND I AM THE NEA. WHEN SOMEONE ATTACKS THESE ORGANIZATIONS I CONSIDER IT A PERSONAL ATTACK JUST LIKE WHEN THEY ATTACKED MY COUNTRY. ALL OF THESE PEOPLE ATTACKING THE NEA SEEM TO BE INTERESTED IN DESTROYING THE PUBLIC SCHOOLS OF AMERICA SO THEY CAN EDUCATE THE ELITE AND HAVE MASSIVE SLAVE LABOR. WE ARE REQUIRED TO TAKE THE BEST PARENTS HAVE TO OFFER, THEIR CHILDREN, AND EDUCATE EVERYONE OF THEM. TO STATE THAT THE NEA (AMERICA'S PUBLIC SCHOOL EMPLOYEES) ARE THE SAME AS COLD BLOODED KILLERS IS BEYOND REALITY. SOMEONE NEEDS TO THANK SOME TEACHERS THAT HE CAN WRITE, READ, AND SPEAK EVEN IF HE THINKS THEY ARE LESS THAN HUMAN. WITHOUT THE NEA THERE WOULD BE NO PUBLIC EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM AND NO AMERICA. WHO DO YOU THINK TEACHES OUR YOUNG ABOUT THIS GREAT COUNTRY AND WHAT WE HAVE GONE THROUGH TO EXIST. WHO WILL TEACH THEM TO BECOME GOOD CITIZENS WHEN THE SCHOOLS ARE CLOSED?
February 23rd, 2007 at 2:41 pmROGER, PLEASE TURN ME OFF. I DON'T KNOW WHY YOU ARE SCREAMING.
February 23rd, 2007 at 3:04 pmJeanette, I don't know CMS ' "procedure to dismiss an employee" - but let me share with you an effective procedure, ...."You're fired."
("You're dismssed" sounds too much like the limousine liberal letting the staff go for the night.)
February 23rd, 2007 at 6:31 pmThere are so many lies like this. I think it would be valid to set "pop" philosophy classes to teach kids to test the truth of these statements and othere aspects of the media.
February 24th, 2007 at 7:21 am[...] Boortz stands by his comment that Teachers’ Unions are more dangerous to America that Al Quaeda [...]
February 24th, 2007 at 4:44 pmI am A Union Representative for the American Federation of Teachers in the State of Connecticut. I negotiation Teacher contract throughout the State of Connecticut. As listed below, out of 172 contract statewide, only 12 towns due not have a "mamagement rights clause. A management rights clause is a standard clause in almost every contract which sole purpose is to retain rights for the employer or Board of Education. Below is a standard management rights clause from the Town of Branford connecticut. note the rights retain:
1. To maintain public elementary and secondary schools and such other
educational activities as in its judgment will best serve the interests of the Town of Branford;
2. To give the children of Branford as nearly equal advantage as may be practicable;
3. To decide the need for school facilities;
4. To determine the care, maintenance and operation of buildings, lands, apparatus and other property used for school purposes;
5 To determine the number, age and qualifications of the pupils to be admitted into each school;
6. To employ, assign and transfer certified personnel; to suspend or
dismiss the teachers of the schools;
7 To designate the schools which shall be attended by the various children within the town;
8. To make such provisions as will enable each child of school age residing in the town to attend school for the period required by law and provide for the transportation of children wherever it is reasonable and desirable;
10. To prescribe rules for the management, studies, classification and discipline for the public schools;
11. To decide the textbooks to be used; to make rules for the arrangement, use and safekeeping of the school libraries and to approve the books selected therefore;
12. To approve plans for school buildings; to prepare and submit budgets and, in its sole discretion, expend monies appropriated by the town for the maintenance of the schools,
13. To make such transfers of funds within the appropriate budget as it shall deem desirable.
I think you get my point, all of the rights controling "how children are educated" are and have alway been controled by the various Boards of Education throughout our commnities and Country. So do not blame teachers and Unions for the state of Education today. The elected people have the blame not Unions who on