ThinkFast: February 23, 2007
ThinkFast: February 23, 2007
The Bush administration has “demanded that Israel desist from even exploratory contacts with Syria, of the sort that would test whether Damascus is serious in its declared intentions to hold peace talks with Israel.” In meetings with Israeli officials, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice “was forceful in expressing Washington’s view on the matter”: “Don’t even think about it.”
“Iraq may be facing a deadly civil war, but the Iraqi government is initiating major, costly repairs to its diplomatic building in Washington and expanding its real estate holdings here.” The Iraqi government recently purchased a $5.8 million mansion complete with “heated floors…and spacious bathrooms, one with a Jacuzzi.”
UK Prime Minister Tony Blair yesterday “declared himself at odds with hawks in the US Administration” over Iran. He told BBC News, “I can’t think that it would be right to take military action against Iran. … What is important is to pursue the political, diplomatic channel.”
The White House yesterday announced “plans to replace the assistant defense secretary for health affairs” — William Winkenwerder — “two days after a review was ordered into outpatient care for wounded troops.” The Pentagon claimed the announcement had “no bearing on current events whatsoever.”
Day two of jury deliberations in the Scooter Libby trial produced no verdict. Yesterday, the jury of eight women and four men “requested a large flip chart, masking tape, Post-it notes and a document with pictures of the witnesses.”
World Bank President Paul Wolfowitz may appoint a new resident director for Iraq. “This is exactly what he shouldn’t be doing and what the [Bank] board was initially afraid that he would do, which is to use the financial resources of the World Bank to take some of the heat off the U.S. Treasury and U.S. policy,” said Bea Edwards of the Government Accountability Project.
An analysis of 2005 census figures found that nearly 16 million Americans are living in deep or severe poverty — a 32-year high. “A family of four with two children and an annual income of less than $9,903 – half the federal poverty line – was considered severely poor in 2005. So were individuals who made less than $5,080 a year.”
“Ballot initiatives for increasing the minimum wage boosted voter motivation in five targeted states in 2006,” a new study shows. Voter motivation and reported interest in the election was “disproportionately high” among African-Americans, unmarried voters and women.
Parents have complained after ninth graders at a North Carolina school were given anti-Muslim literature in class. The handouts described Mohammed as a “criminal” and “demon possessed,” and included pamphlets with titles such as “Jesus not Muhammad” and “Do Not Marry a Muslim Man.”
And finally: “The tables will turn on Justice Stephen Breyer next month, when instead of posing obscure questions at Supreme Court arguments, he’ll be answering them – with no clerks to help on research.” In an apparent first, Breyer will appear on a quiz show, as the celebrity guest on the March 17 installment of NPR’s “Wait, Wait, Don’t Tell Me!”
What did we miss? Let us know in the comments section.
Topic Cloud
ArchivesBlog Roll
Has anyone thought of the British retreat/withdrawal/surrender/cut and run in these terms? That Blair has made these comments about Iran makes me wonder if they are not actually trying to move their troops out of the way in case the us ignites another war in the region?
February 23rd, 2007 at 9:15 amThe Iraqi government recently purchased a $5.8 million mansion complete with “heated floors…and spacious bathrooms, one with a Jacuzzi.â€
The Bush administration’s rebuilding efforts in Iraq using American taxpayer dollars must be going very well indeed, if the Iraqi government has the resources to purchase real estate in or around Washington, DC for their diplomats.
Or are the Iraqis using our own money destined for reconstruction to purchase mansions for themselves here? What a pisser! No wonder the Bush government can’t find 8-12 Billion dollars lost and unaccounted for in Iraq.
February 23rd, 2007 at 9:19 am“William Winkenwerder”?
February 23rd, 2007 at 9:24 am– Even Bush is going to have a hard time coming up with a clever nickname for this guy when he tells him he did “a heck of a job.”
Yes Mark and they will attack Iran because there are no good targets left in Iraq anymore just like Afghanistan had no good targets that is why we attacked Iraq.
February 23rd, 2007 at 9:25 amIraqi government has the resources to purchase real estate means that when we leave so do they……….
February 23rd, 2007 at 9:26 amThe Bush administration has “demanded that Israel desist from even exploratory contacts with Syria, of the sort that would test whether Damascus is serious in its declared intentions to hold peace talks with Israel.†In meetings with Israeli officials, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice “was forceful in expressing Washington’s view on the matterâ€: “Don’t even think about it.â€
Am I reading this right? Did the U.S. just order Israel to not investigate the possibility that Syria may be interested in peace talks with Israel???
How much more evidence of this administration’s neocon plan for world hegemony do you need?
February 23rd, 2007 at 9:29 amThe Iraqi government recently purchased a $5.8 million mansion complete with “heated floors…and spacious bathrooms, one with a Jacuzzi.â€
Iraqi government to building contractors:
February 23rd, 2007 at 9:31 am
How much more evidence of this administration’s neocon plan for world hegemony do you need?
Comment by TripMaster Monkey
Attacking a Middle East country… oh, wait.
February 23rd, 2007 at 9:34 amDon’t even think about…
Doing the right thing
Using diplomcacy
Encouraging peace efforts
Not bombing Iran
Not bombing Syria
Bringing our troops home
Acting American
Ms. Lice, you are charged with diplomacy as Sec. of State.
Do you even understand what that means?
How dare you speak for the American people, you Neoslut.
Go bang Bill Kristoll if you need some action, but quit acting like a complete stooge for PNAC.
Chickenhawks are chickenshits, and you proved that unequivocally with such a stupid remark to Israel.
When a Sec. of State is telling the Israelis to NOT engage in peace talks, we have a very serious problem. We realize you’re not trained to deliver diplomacy. That’s not our fault, it’s Bush’s. But…you’re still a product of America, and for God’s sake, start acting like it, you schill.
Condi’s gett’n Syrious.
February 23rd, 2007 at 9:41 amWhat about this case of the soldier AgustÃn Aguayo?
Read brief history at the right.
Also:
46 of 49 nations OK ban on cluster bombs
Some key arms makers — including the U.S., Russia, Israel and China — snubbed the conference of 49 nations. Of those attending, Poland, Romania and Japan did not approve the final text.
Cluster bomblets are packed by the hundreds into artillery shells, bombs or missiles which scatter them over vast areas, with some failing to explode immediately. The unexploded bomblets can then lie dormant for years after conflicts end until they are disturbed, often by civilians.
As many as 60 percent of the victims in Southeast Asia are children, the Cluster Munition Coalition campaign group said. The weapons have recently been used in Iraq, Kosovo, Afghanistan and Lebanon, it said. The U.N. estimated that Israel dropped as many as 4 million bomblets in southern Lebanon during last year’s war with Hezbollah, with as many 40 percent failing to explode on impact.
What a wonderful world.
February 23rd, 2007 at 9:43 amIn other news:
46 of 49 nations OK ban on cluster bombs
Notably, the U.S. opposed the initiative. Cluster bombs were used in Afghanistan and Iraq. Unexploded bomblets pose a particular hazard to civilian populations, especially children.
February 23rd, 2007 at 9:44 amOn the Condi post:
The American argument is that even “exploratory talks” would be considered a prize in Damascus, whose policy and actions continue to undermine Lebanon’s sovereignty and the functioning of its government, while it also continues to stir unrest in Iraq, to the detriment of the U.S. presence there.
Change Damascus for Washington and Lebanon for Iraq.
Oh, stir unrest in Iraq! Yes, it´s Syria´s fault. Why Syria invaded Iraq? (????)
Hypocritical murderer Rice.
February 23rd, 2007 at 9:47 amBris, what a team we are! :)
February 23rd, 2007 at 9:48 amJuan,
great minds think alike!
February 23rd, 2007 at 9:52 amWhat about this case of the soldier AgustÃn Aguayo?
When you call the tune, eventually, you have to pay the piper.
’nuff said.
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:11 amI’m trying to divine what exactly the Libby Jury is pondering based upon their request of “photos of the witnesses“.
“He looks guilty” or “I don’t trust those eyes”?
How ’bout concentrating on the EVIDENCE?
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:13 am“I’m sorry, all we have is pallet loads of American cash. Do you take pallets?†Comment by TripMaster Monkey
That’s funny! Seems like the Halliburton folks are more than happy to take pallets. In fact, it seems they are happy to talk pallets of American cash even when they fail to deliver their services. Of course, they have friends at the top of the pile.
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:14 amIts hard to believe Condi said that. I mean I believe it, its just unbelievable. That kind of crap is enough to make people angry and disobedient.
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:15 amWhy is Paul Wolfowitz still alive? Why isn’t Paul Wolfowitz behind bars?
He is responsible for the mess in Iraq and there are no consequences for his action? There are no consequences for anyone responsible for the illegal Iraq war ….
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:15 amIt looks like condi’s face could use a good fistful of my hand.
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:17 amCondi could use a nice tall glass of SHUT THE F*CK UP!
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:19 amJust some statistics on poverty
U.S= 5.36%
Germany= 16%
Venezuela= 80%
Our numbers aren’t great, but it could be worse.
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:20 amNice. The puppet regime gets new digs while people are starving in the streets.
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:23 amThis WH, those that came from the administration, and the supporters prove every day that they are crazy, anti-peace, anti-American, and out to move our nation into a kingdom instead of a democracy. There is nothing that they do that is good for the whole nation; everything is to further their desires for continual unrest in EVERY part of the world so the private contractors tied into war and aggression can gain control and profits. Why is our Congress not challenging w and his supporters.
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:26 am…must be an inbred jury for them to take this long…
…Libby’s guilty as hell…
…and Cheney’s a co-conspirator…
…no question…
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:27 amFirst, some people are visual learners. Thus, having photos of the witnesses helps them keep the connection of who said what.
Next, part of the function of a jury is to determine credibility. “I don’t trust those eyes†is a very accurate statement of exactly why we have a jury system. Twelve different people, from diverse backgrounds, each assessing the body language and coming to a consensus of whom to believe. Because, believe it or not, people do lie on the witness stand. In other words, a witness’ demeanor on the stand is evidence.
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:27 am#22 hacker bob
actually our poverty rate is much higher than that … 12.7%
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:29 amcensus information
reward Syria or not, give peace a chance you idiots.
People are dying everyday in the middle east, and these jerks are still posturing.
I can’t believe this. What has this country become ?
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:30 amIt is so obviouse that Condi is the chimps puppet! And not a very good looking one either….
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:30 amAm I reading this right? Did the U.S. just order Israel to not investigate the possibility that Syria may be interested in peace talks with Israel???
How much more evidence of this administration’s neocon plan for world hegemony do you need?
Comment by TripMaster Monkey — February 23, 2007 @ 9:29 am
Crystal Clear.
ALL criminality points to David Rockefeller as the neocon’s puppet master. Who funds the Think Tanks that have advocated for the conquest of the Middle East? David Rockefeller. Who earns money from the interests of David Rockefeller? Everyone in Congress, Every employee of his think tanks, Every shareholder of his oil and banking empire…etc.
David Rockefeller – American Traitor:
Founder of Council On Foreign Relations:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ensmPJm5B5A&NR
David Rockefeller & Dick Cheney:
American Traitors…
Cheney laughs about lying to his constituents in order to get elected:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HdxLYuvvbgs&NR
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:30 am#28 Jebus loves me
I think this administration has turned the middle east, at the very least, into its own personal Risk board. Maybe if we all pitched in and bought the chimp a copy of the risk game (board, not computer, don’t think he could handle the latter), then maybe things would be a bit more peaceful in the world.
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:34 amWTF, Condi? No talks, never! We demand! Don’t you dare!
She in no Sec of State. She has been a failure at all the positions she held. Bush and Laura thinks she should run for Decider in 08 if Jeb is too afraid to try.
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:34 amZimbabwe’s is believed to be at least 75%, with 1600% inflation
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:34 am#2 Joe Sixpack
Halliburton offered them a deal they couldn’t refuse on an old place that The Dick Cheney moved out of.
#2 and you thought Reagan was stupid
I would suggest We Willie Winkie but he was a hero is an old time kiddie song.
Condon Rice: “Don’t even think about it.â€
How do you say “F*ch You in Yiddish?
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:36 amAce,
My local news, azcentral.com, has this story today, “9/11 conspiracy on the table” I clicked on it, and no story, I bet they removed it.
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:38 amWhen you call the tune, eventually, you have to pay the piper.
Comment by hacker bob
So why do you get mad or sad every time an american soldier falls down? It was their duty, right?
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:38 amShe wouldn’t take a fast-food job? She’d rather be poor?
Comment by Dale
So fast-food jobs makes you rich? I wasnt aware of that.
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:40 amComment by AshenShard — February 23, 2007 @ 10:29 am
Thanks for the link. I think I may have been corrected.
I was using the numbers of 16 million in poverty div by 298,444,215 (July 2006 est.)population. Just so you know how I got the numbers.
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:40 am#35, try here.
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:42 amShe wouldn’t take a fast-food job? She’d rather be poor?
Comment by Dale #32
She already IS poor…
…I hope your sick a*s loses everything you have…
…then can’t get work shoveling dogsh*t…
…pigs like YOU need to feel poverty…
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:42 am#37, no, they won’t, but aren’t they better than nothing until she can find something that does pay more?
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:43 amSo why do you get mad or sad every time an american soldier falls down? It was their duty, right?
Comment by Juan C — February 23, 2007 @ 10:38 am
If you are refering to the loss of life, then I have to tell you that I get sad when an Iraqi dies as well.
Men and women that serve in the military die, it is a fact of life.
Did you ever think that the fact AgustÃn Aguayo was a medic, that he could just maybe have saved a life or two in Iraq?
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:45 amIn meetings with Israeli officials, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice “was forceful in expressing Washington’s view on the matterâ€: “Don’t even think about it.â€
Shut the f*ck up, bitch, and please, please don’t even try to do your job anymore, ok?
There’s a sale at Ferragamo….
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:45 amthey won’t, but aren’t they better than nothing until she can find something that does pay more?
Comment by Dale
Probably in la la land. You know, I lot of Wall Street brokers really begin their careers at Taco Bell.
Dale, once poor you stay poor except in Hollywood.
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:46 amThe White House yesterday announced “plans to replace the assistant defense secretary for health affairs†— William Winkenwerder — “two days after a review was ordered into outpatient care for wounded troops.†The Pentagon claimed the announcement had “no bearing on current events whatsoever.â€
Heckuva job, Winkie.
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:47 amParents have complained after ninth graders at a North Carolina school were given anti-Muslim literature in class. The handouts described Mohammed as a “criminal†and “demon possessed,†and included pamphlets with titles such as “Jesus not Muhammad†and “Do Not Marry a Muslim Man.â€
Yeah, no marrying Muslim men….just sleep with ‘em and cut ‘em loose. Meh.
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:48 amDid you ever think that the fact AgustÃn Aguayo was a medic, that he could just maybe have saved a life or two in Iraq?
Comment by hacker bob
I understand, bob. But there are things called principles, no matter what your professional background or activities are.
Shut the f*ck up, bitch
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:50 amComment by Zooey
Zoo, couldnt have been said better. She should die with all the murderer thugs.
Thanks Dale,
You must have searched around that site to get the link. I obviously didn’t.
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:51 amComment by hacker bob — February 23, 2007 @ 10:20 am
Care to provide a link with those numbers?
How about the U.S. Census Bureau?
http://pubdb3.census.gov/macro/032006/pov/new01_100_01.htm
If you went to that page, you’d see that the total for individuals in poverty in the United States is 12.6%.
You also need to take into account the EU’s different definition of poverty:
If the United States were to report poverty using the same definition, 62.5% of Americans would be deemed living in poverty and 48.3% would be deemed to be living in strict poverty. Another 9.7% (above the 62.5%)would be living close to poverty.
Poverty in Venezuela is now at 37.9%, lower than when Hugo Chavez took office (42%). http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/60/20041
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:51 amHow do you say “F*ch You in Yiddish?
Comment by Clyde the Ripper
The closest I can come up with Clyde, is “Fok jou.” (phoenetic spelling)
I’m here to serve. Heh.
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:53 amReally? Tell that to Bill Gates. Sam Walton. Thomas Watson. Mark Cuban. Ray Kroc.
Ever hear the term ‘nouveau riche’? It refers to the ‘newly rich’; people that don’t start with a silver spoon in their mouth, but claw their way up the ladder until they’re rich.
“Once poor you stay poor.” You got a helluva lookout for the human condition.
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:53 amParents have complained after ninth graders at a North Carolina school were given anti-Muslim literature in class. The handouts described Mohammed as a “criminal†and “demon possessed,†and included pamphlets with titles such as “Jesus not Muhammad†and “Do Not Marry a Muslim Man.â€
Is that why they are called Conservatives? They conserve old literature and idealologies of hate and just replace the old words of “jew” and “black” with “muslim” and there you go. They know how to recycle….just not in the good way.
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:53 amDale, once poor you stay poor except in Hollywood.
Comment by Juan C — February 23, 2007 @ 10:46 am
Prove it.
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:55 amReally? Tell that to Bill Gates. Sam Walton. Thomas Watson. Mark Cuban. Ray Kroc.
Great 5 examples. I have 4 billion.
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:56 amYou got a helluva lookout for the human condition.
Comment by Dale
Human condition is to take money from people like Wal-Mart is doing, dumping strategies and exploiting its workers? Human condition is to monopolize software? Boy, you have a lot to learn. There is no honest millionaire.
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:58 amJust a heads up…
Watched The Ghosts of Abu Ghraib on HBO last night.
Everyone, no matter what side of the political spectrum you reside, needs to watch this particular documentary.
I would love to see how the 29%’ers respond to the total disgusting actions and policies of Rumsveld
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:59 amExley????
Re-phrasing Juan’s statement:
“Dale, once poor [most people] stay poor except in Hollywood.”
Dale, I’m sure you’re not saying people like Bill Gates, Sam Walton, Thomas Watson, Mark Cuban, and Ray Kroc are the rule, rather than the exception.
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:00 amShut the f*ck up, bitch, and please, please don’t even try to do your job anymore, ok?
There’s a sale at Ferragamo….
Comment by Zooey
Nice zinger, but calm down! Truly it’s an outrageous thing to say (to put it mildly), but I’ve been lurking here for a while and it seems that the primal screaming is becoming a dead end. I totally get the sentiments: worst administration ever – check; jingoistic confusion of nationalism with patriotism – check; hypocritical and lying smear tactics – check check CHECK!! I’ve been mad as hell too, but it’s starting to turn into despair as day after day the beat goes on, despite my outrage at it. Will it ever get better?
I noted just a little while ago in another thread that people like you and sharon and others bring a little humaneness to all this. AsI said over there, maybe it’s the feminine energy thing, and what I’m saying is that that’s the sort of thing that seems most needed now. After all the screaming at the appalling pronouncements of fools and miscreants, it’s encouraging to know that some aren’t afraid to express sorrow at the consequences these awful words and actions have in individual lives.
Hell, even the reformed troll rachel warms my heart a bit (scary, I know!)
Though I completely understand those little “F!CK YOU, YOU F!CKING F!CK!!” moments that come over us these days.
:-)
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:00 amAlright, alright.
Sice TP doesn’t have a moderator. Here goes.
I agree that most people are stuck in their “caste” when it comes to economic conditions. There are exceptions as we have seen Dale’s. I also agree with Juan that it is grossly out of proportion and that is the problem. America is probably still one of the places where a person has the best chances of “getting rich”. But it ain’t as easy as America would like others to think. There are barriers to overcome, or just plain run into and keep hitting the head.
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:01 amVery few people can move from poor to rich … the myth of our country is that anyone can do it, that is why poor support the rich because they believe that eventually they can do it also … thats why the very few that do are trumpeted loudly in order to maintain the myth.
This is the same reason, in the South, there was such support for slavery, even among non-slave holders. Subtracting the inherent racism, it became doctrine in the South that to own a slave was to be someone, to be wealthy, and that anyone could buy one once they worked enough to afford one. It was a myth that became part of doctrine, and that is why poor whites who would never be able to afford a slave supported the Confederacy, because they were so blinded by the myth.
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:02 amProve it.
Comment by hacker bob
Look around, Robert. Have you ever seen more than 5 poor people? Don’t be mean to Juan.
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:02 amDRxJ,
The 28percenters hate anyone not like themselves, and would love to see all the stuff that happens to the brown people at the hands of whites.
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:02 amWilliam Henry Gates III was born in Seattle, Washington to William H. Gates, Jr. (now Sr.) and Mary Maxwell Gates. His family was wealthy; his father was a prominent lawyer, his mother served on the board of directors for First Interstate Bank and the United Way, and her father, J. W. Maxwell, was a national bank president.
Bill Gates was never poor.
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:03 amBillions in cash were shipped to Iraq, shrink-wrapped bricks of $100 dollar bills, and nobody knows where most of the cash went?! Each brick is 10 packs of $10,000 in $100 bills, so $100,000 per brick. 10 bricks is one million bucks. It’s obvious that everyone who handled the huge pallets of cash took a few bricks each. There was no accounting, so most of it was stolen. The Congress needs to ask Paul Bremer how much he stole? How much Rumsfeld stole? How much Wolfowitz stole? How much Cheney stole? How much Bush stole? How much did Generals steal and other officers too? How much of it was by pilfered by common soldiers? How much did Chalabi make off with? How much did others in Iraq’s stooge government get? How much wound up in pockets of Iraqi insurgents?
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:03 amThere was once a home computer called the “VIC 80″. In Germany, the logo was covered with tape as vic is a vulgar term in German.
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:05 amThomas Watson: Born on February 17, 1874, he was very much the country boy. His father owned a modest lumber business located in Painted Post, 20 miles west of Elmira in northwestern New York State. He himself as a child was something of a loner. An asthmatic, he was remembered as being shy at social gatherings.
I would say if his father owned a lumber business he wasn’t poor either.
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:06 amNice zinger, but calm down!
Comment by J-rock
Welcome, J-rock. You wouldn’t know it, but I was deadly calm when I made that statement. Seriously.
It will get better, when these people are in prison. Condi is one of the most evil in this administration, and truly, I don’t want her doing her job anymore. We’re safer that way.
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:07 amComment by Briseadh na Faire — February 23, 2007 @ 10:51 am
I guess you midded the post where I said:
See, I also explained how I got the numbers for US poverty. I also said that I had been corrected in a way that I was hoping to appear to be humble.
As for the rest, I just did a quick Google.
Get over yourself.
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:08 amLook around, Robert. Have you ever seen more than 5 poor people? Don’t be mean to Juan.
Comment by Zooey — February 23, 2007 @ 11:02 am
We have discussed my upbringing before. For me to see 5 poor people, I would just have to look at my childhood. Many people that start poor, may not end up rich, but can, and do end up in at least middle class. Not all. Not as many as SHOULD end up there. But many do.
I was not being mean to Juan. He stated something as a fact and I asked him to prove it. You “fixed” his statement by including the word “most”. Someone told me yesterday that words mean something.;) With that being the case, the correct words need to be used. Juan and I may disagree, but I have a lot of respect for him.
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:13 amSorry, I don’t agree that very few can do it. Sure, it takes a lot of hard work, and I agree that how you start out life is ‘luck of the draw’, but, while there’s luck involved, choice has a lot to do with it. The choices you make, to a large extent, determine your ‘lot in life’.
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:17 amThough I completely understand those little “F!CK YOU, YOU F!CKING F!CK!!†moments that come over us these days.
:-)
Comment by J-rock
Damn, I should have trademarked that phrase.
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:18 amSomeone told me yesterday that words mean something.;) With that being the case, the correct words need to be used. Juan and I may disagree, but I have a lot of respect for him.
Comment by hacker bob
Don’t throw my words back at me! :)
As long as you respect Juan, I won’t come over there and kick you.
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:19 amCORRECTION TO #68
I guess you midded the post where I said:
Should be “MISSED”
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:19 amComment by And You Thought REAGAN Was Stupid — February 23, 2007 @ 9:24 am
How about “wee willie winkie?”
http://www.zelo.com/family/nursery/winkie.asp
It might be one of Bushie’s favorite books!
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:20 amIt will get better, when these people are in prison. Condi is one of the most evil in this administration, and truly, I don’t want her doing her job anymore. We’re safer that way.
Comment by Zooey
I agree, but since I don’t personally have the power to impeach or indict any of these criminals, what’s left? Personally, I say impeach ‘em all and let the government go up in flames. Some crimes cry out to heaven for justice. “Let justice be done though the heavens fall.” But I’m from KY and the great oracle Google will soon reveal to you that “my” congresscritters are going to be of ZERO help. I used to send emails to Bitch McConnell constantly from MoveOn and so on. Each reply essentially boiled down to “thanks for amusing me with your charming pretension that your views might have the slightest interest to me, but I’ll do what the hell I want and anyways, I’m kinda busy collecting my payoffs. But thanks for playing.”
*Sigh*
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:21 amThe choices you make, to a large extent, determine your ‘lot in life’.
Comment by Dale
You’re buying into the upper class, rightwing bullshit of blaming the poor for being poor. There’s a lot more to it than choice. The hardest working people I have ever seen have been poor people.
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:24 amDamn, I should have trademarked that phrase.
Comment by hacker bob
Wish I could take credit, LOL!
Hack on over to Sticker Giant. and have a ball!
:-D
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:26 amDale and Bob.
Im not advocating lazyness or that the State should take care of everything. I agree with the hard work thing. In that sense, do you think Bill Gates has all his day filled with hard work, or Marc Cuban besides cheerleading the Mavs?
I agree that people should progress every day not just in the economical sense, which seems to be the most important desire of common people, but you have to agree with me that everybody should have the same opportunities to accomplish that. What are the chances of a black kid living in a slum who happens to be a genius in math in comparison with a mediocre rich kid having its way up in Princeton, for example?
Who do you think have the best chances of getting a succesful, fulfilling life? Why arent genius black kids? Becuz they have to use that genius for dodging bullets from gangs and police, getting killed in a knife fight or spending his life flipping burgers. Im not inventing anything, Im describing what is common life.
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:28 amAs long as you respect Juan, I won’t come over there and kick you.
Comment by Zooey
Oh, get over here!! ((hug))
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:29 am*Sigh*
Comment by J-rock
You’re from KY? Ya’ll make some great jelly. :-D
Believe me, J-rock, I feel your pain. I live in frickin’ Idaho. I think we have the same reps. For a while Sen Craig blocked my emails to him. I’m not sure why. Heh.
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:29 amThe choices you make, to a large extent, determine your ‘lot in life’.
Comment by Dale
Tell that to 7 y/o prostitutes.
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:30 amFirst I thought Secretary of State Rice may be suffering from early onset Altzheimer’s since she keeps “forgetting” things (like whether or not she was notified of something) but now I think she’s just an incompetent boob like all the rest of them.
What are the chances of EVERYONE in this administration being a moron? I mean, I work with idiots but we’re not overrun with them.
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:34 amOh, get over here!! ((hug))
Comment by Juan C
((((hugging you back))))
:-)
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:38 amBelieve me, J-rock, I feel your pain. I live in frickin’ Idaho. I think we have the same reps. For a while Sen Craig blocked my emails to him. I’m not sure why. Heh.
Probably your witty turns of phrase, HAHA!
We DO have the same reps, in a way. They’re all part of the Grand Larceny Party. Unfortunately, a few Dems are starting to look eerily like them. I think a great starting point is David Sirota’s book Hostile Takeover. After reading it, I didn’t know whether to scream or sob. Similar experience (except much worse) reading Gregory Palast’s The best Democracy Money Can Buy
*head thumps to desk in despair*
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:38 amComment by J-rock — February 23, 2007 @ 11:26 am
I saw that on a t-shirt and fell in love with the phrase.
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:39 amThe choices you make, to a large extent, determine your ‘lot in life’.
Comment by Dale
Tell that to 7 y/o prostitutes.
Comment by Juan C
Or the teenager that drops out of school to support his family with 2-3 jobs(which according to Bush is uniquely American). Yes it’s his “choice” to do so but after that difficult decision is made the window of opportunity for advancing into the upper economic classes gets a lot smaller. That simple scenario is way more common than the very few poor that become millionaires.
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:39 am#82 – D’Lo,
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:40 amOn applying for a position in the Bush administration, everyone is given an IQ test. Those who score higher than W are considered over-qualified for the job.
#82 – D’Lo
I don’t think Condi (or the rest of them) is stupid, they’re just soulless neo-cons who don’t give a shit about anyone or anything expect their ideology and the bottom line $$.
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:43 amGranted, the black kid is going to have a much tougher time of it than the mediocre rich kid. And maybe the black kid is not going to rise as high as the mediocre kid. But he CAN raise his social status.
So how do you propose ‘giving everybody the same opportunities’? Free college for all? Who’s paying for the free college? And if someone is given free college when they haven’t earned it (either through loans or scholarship) do you think they’re going to appreciate it as much as someone who’s worked their butt off to get into college?
Some colleges are better than others; do you propose making sure that Princeton admits as large a percentage of ‘black kids from the slum’ as Rinky Dink Community College?
I’m all for giving people a helping hand, but NOT handing over the whole cookie jar (like the metaphor-mixing? :-).
TANSTAAFL!
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:47 amI am a piper, bob. And I got paid. The kid was a Marine. Closed casket.
What tune are you calling?
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:48 amSorry, I guess I should’ve specified that children don’t really have the same choices as adults.
Yes, but that’s (usually) an example of the parent(s) making choices that impact their kids… drugs, alcohol, crime, abandonment, etc. Again, it may take that teenager longer to accomplish his goals, but he still can ’succeed’ (success, using this thread’s definition of gaining higher financial standing than you started with).
And have you actually hired people before? I have, and I know that I’d much rather hire someone that ‘dropped out of school and worked 2-3 jobs to support his family’ than some ‘mediocre rich kid’; I know the dropout will work a lot harder for want he wants; and the harder he works, the more successful he’ll be.
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:53 amMy WTF-Incredulometer woke me up late last night when it detected Condi’s “Don’t even think about it.â€
Now what reason could we have for not wanting peace talks between Israel and Syria to take place?
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:57 amA new front on the GWOT? You betcha.
Yeah, BTW the WTF siren did wake up the entire neighborhood…
The White House yesterday announced “plans to replace the assistant defense secretary for health affairs†— William Winkenwerder —Operation Scape Goat completed successfully, sir!
February 23rd, 2007 at 11:59 amYeah, BTW the WTF siren did wake up the entire neighborhood…
Comment by RUCerious
I bet you’re the most popular guy on the street. :)
February 23rd, 2007 at 12:00 pmAs for the rest, I just did a quick Google.
Get over yourself.
Comment by hacker bob — February 23, 2007 @ 11:08 am
Those intervening posts were made while I was composing my comment, doing more than just a “quick Google.” You tend to post a lot of crap, bob. And whenever I can, I will call you on it.
February 23rd, 2007 at 12:00 pmYes, but that’s (usually) an example of the parent(s) making choices that impact their kids… drugs, alcohol, crime, abandonment, etc. Again, it may take that teenager longer to accomplish his goals, but he still can ’succeed’ (success, using this thread’s definition of gaining higher financial standing than you started with).
Comment by Dale
Are you saying that even though we can make choices for ourselves but since we are in a human society that the choices others make in our society affect us. Huge step there. You can make all the choices you want for yourself but if you don’t have the means, education, timing, luck, help, etc. it could go to pot through no fault of your own. I feel that the belief stated before in how a poor person can move themself out of poverty and into riches with just determination and desire is a foolish belief. As Juan C alluded to, there may be a few examples of it happening but there a vast amount more that haven’t and its not because of a lack of determination or desire not to be poor.
February 23rd, 2007 at 12:01 pmGood Morning one and all,…..Hay Zooey, weather up date, cold, windy and wet…..That would be a good mix for a drink if not for the windy part…
Am most disapointed that ugly dead eyed rice’s picture is on this thread, like many other neo con’s faces I am sick of seeing and hearing anything from them……No diplomacy, arrogance, greed and my way or the highway has gotten our country and the world in a heap of crapola…
Now we have Iraq dipshits buying expensive home’s here, what, not investing in Iraq.? That ’s interesting, maybe not, heard several year’s ago the BenLadens had baught up mansions in California…One would think our palett’s of money have come full circle…Some one should take away the purse string’s so we are no longer giving paletts of money to the rich and leaving the poor behind…..
Sorry for the length, off to do errand’s and run the Bear….Did you hug a loved one today.? How about a huge hug for our country, do something to help end the madness..Write a representative…Show our mother earth you love the planet, plant a tree or flower, recycle, car pool……Give your selves a hug from me…..Blessings All, try Peace, it work’s….
February 23rd, 2007 at 12:03 pmRegarding Dr. Rice’s statement. My earlier post was devoured by the Spam filter (I wonder why?).
Short version (and I hope this makes it):
What’s the worst thing that can happen to a War Profiteer? PEACE.
Remember, 7 months ago we expedited arms shipments to Israel when it was bombing Lebanon in response to a kidnapping of 2 Israeli soldiers.
February 23rd, 2007 at 12:05 pmWe will get a chance to impeach.
Mark my words.
It WILL happen, as long as Botch continues his destructive behavior and continues to ignore the Democratic majority and the will of the people.
He’s giving us NO OTHER CHOICE.
GUA-RAN-TEED IMPEACHMENT.
February 23rd, 2007 at 12:06 pmReally? Tell that to Bill Gates. Sam Walton. Thomas Watson. Mark Cuban. Ray Kroc.
Ever hear the term ‘nouveau riche’? It refers to the ‘newly rich’; people that don’t start with a silver spoon in their mouth, but claw their way up the ladder until they’re rich. – Dale
Wow, Bill gates grew up poor? Sam Walton Grew Up Poor? Mark Cuban? Ray Kroc? Are you positive? Or are you simply comparing their net worth to that of their parents?
William Henry Gates III was born in Seattle, Washington to William H. Gates, Jr. (now Sr.) and Mary Maxwell Gates. His family was wealthy; his father was a prominent lawyer, his mother served on the board of directors for First Interstate Bank and the United Way, and her father, J. W. Maxwell, was a national bank president. – If that is poverty then we are all truly screwed.
Sam Walton grew up a farmers son during the depression. His dad went to work in the mortgage industry to earn more. Sounds like they were middle class and moved up. But no where near the poverty conditions Gates grew up under.
Mark Cuban grew up in Mt. Lebanon, Pennsylvania; a suburb of Pittsburgh in a working class family; his father worked as an automobile upholsterer. I know a little bit about Mt Lebanon. I have relatives who live there and it is an upper middle class community. But it Gates was poor, this is poverty too I guess.
Ray Kroc was born & Raised in Oak Park Illinois, hardly a bastion of poverty. For these who don’t know it is a community that has a large concentration of Frank Lloyd Wright homes. Middle Class guy pretty much..
My point with this is that these people did not grow up in poverty and elevate themselves out of it into wealth. They all grew up in relative safe comfortable surroundings which were middle class or better. While I would say that Gates definitely had a silver spoon, the others were by no means eating off of hand me down plastic utensils. You really need to pick better examples. The truth of the matter is that in the united states it is more likely that you will stay within the social class you are born into and that less than 5% of the people are actually upwardly mobile, this figure was in a study I read about within the last year or so. I have no way to measure the validity of the figure. But if you think about it that makes absolute sense. If everyone were to explode with wealth and everyone became wealthy (a republican pipe dream) all that would do is increase the various levels across the board poverty, middle class, wealthy would all have new metrics to be measured against.
February 23rd, 2007 at 12:08 pmSharon ~ I did hug my Amber as I dropped her off at daycare school this morning!
February 23rd, 2007 at 12:10 pmGive your big bear a hug for me will ya!
#6 I was shaking my head at that one too. In whose mind is it ever bad to talk about the possibility of peace?
February 23rd, 2007 at 12:17 pmLet me add that all these entrepreneurs grew up in the middle class at a time when the middle class was strong. Since, 1980, conservatives have been pushing policy which has almost destroyed the middle class that these fortunate men grew up with.
February 23rd, 2007 at 12:29 pmReally? Tell that to Bill Gates. Sam Walton. Thomas Watson. Mark Cuban. Ray Kroc.
Comment by Dale — February 23, 2007 @ 10:53 am
Dale, you know as well as I do that none of these people were poor before they made their fortunes.
You worst example is probably Bill Gates: He comes from a very well-to-do background. His father is/was a wealthy lawyer and his mother is/was a board member of a bank. The Gateses are a prominent family in Oregon, that is a known fact. Check the wikipedia for more details.
Sam Walton was the son of a middle class family -they had enough money to send him to college in the 1930’s.
Thomas Watson. Mark Cuban. and Ray Kroc were not poor either -they might not have been well-to-do, but they were not poor by any means.
Having said that, although it is remarkable that they have accomplished so much (except perhaps for Gates who, as I said, was very wealthy to begin with), their stories are the exception rather than the rule.
Even the Wall Street Journal has noticed that much:
February 23rd, 2007 at 12:36 pm[...]over the last 10 years, better data and more number-crunching have led economists and sociologists to a new consensus: The escalators of mobility move much more slowly. A substantial body of research finds that at least 45 percent of parents’ advantage in income is passed along to their children, and perhaps as much as 60 percent. With the higher estimate, it’s not only how much money your parents have that matters — even your great-great grandfather’s wealth might give you a noticeable edge today.
As rich-poor gap widens in U.S., class mobility stalls
RU….Amber is such a warm, beautiful name and a pretty color as well…..I am a rock hound, can you tell?…Heard you way up here in snohomish county, coment you made about rice…LOL..on spot as usual…Haven’t left yet..Pretty obvious…..
To every one else I would like to see free college to all that qualify, grade wise….It seems to me we would be far better off in our country and in the world is we educate instead of escalate…..If we would bring all the troop’s from all over the world home and secure our borders, mind our own business and work to clean up the damage we have done, we and the planet would thrive……If we were to spend the huge amount we are spending on this Iraq madness on eliminating poverty and up grading education we would indeed be a great nation….
Try if you all can to smile at everyone you see, Say hello and think of way’s to fix what our present administration has done, pass on the good stuff….Wack a troll if you want but at the same time think of how we can join up and remove the bad and replace with good……Turn on the light’s or light a candle for Peace…End of sermon…..Blessings all
February 23rd, 2007 at 12:38 pmOoops -I just noticed that I said the Gateses are from Oregon. It’s actually Washington.
My bad…
February 23rd, 2007 at 12:38 pmGregor, my guess is that Dale actually did not know that all these guys came out of the middle class. Dale’s a “talking point” kind of guy. He probably got his “history” from the likes of Rush or Weiner or Bortz.
February 23rd, 2007 at 12:38 pmLook at her picture there and consider that she is dead-set against any diplomacy which could possibly avert a war between Isreal and Syria. She looks positively evil.
February 23rd, 2007 at 12:39 pmTo every one else I would like to see free college to all that qualify, grade wise….It seems to me we would be far better off in our country and in the world is we educate instead of escalate…..If we would bring all the troop’s from all over the world home and secure our borders, mind our own business and work to clean up the damage we have done, we and the planet would thrive……If we were to spend the huge amount we are spending on this Iraq madness on eliminating poverty and up grading education we would indeed be a great nation….
Try if you all can to smile at everyone you see, Say hello and think of way’s to fix what our present administration has done, pass on the good stuff….Wack a troll if you want but at the same time think of how we can join up and remove the bad and replace with good……Turn on the light’s or light a candle for Peace…End of sermon…..Blessings all
Comment by Sharon
I wish people like the Southern Baptists, who I renounced long ago, could preach so eloquently. I might still count myself as one of them.
Blessings to you as well.
February 23rd, 2007 at 12:41 pmBluedog49,
I was aghast that anyone would list Bill Gates as an example of a rags-to-riches story. I thought it was well known that his family was wealthy.
Perhaps you are right: It’s the kind of “fact” Limbaugh would unload on his dittoheads.
February 23rd, 2007 at 12:48 pm$6 billion a month flushed down the toilet in Iraq? Dale says fine.
Free college education for all who deserve and qualify for it? Dale says who’s gonna pay for that???!!
A fine demonstration of current conservative values.
February 23rd, 2007 at 12:49 pmRegarding the whole pull yourself up by your boot straps and become rich angle…I honestly thinkg the president beleives that he is where he is today because of himslef and that family wealth and connections had nothign to do with it. That would also lead me to believe that is the view of republicans everywhere as they seem to worship this false idol and hang on and nod approval to everything he does and says.
February 23rd, 2007 at 12:50 pmMy favorite b.s. rags-to-riches story is Donald Trump. He took a sizable inheritance and turned it into a larger pile of money. Genius!
February 23rd, 2007 at 12:50 pm#87 #82 – D’Lo,
On applying for a position in the Bush administration, everyone is given an IQ test. Those who score higher than W are considered over-qualified for the job.
Comment by WaltTheMan — February 23, 2007 @ 11:40 am
No wonder no one qualifies and finally Bush must appoint his royal finger to the jester who has to fulfill the position.
February 23rd, 2007 at 12:51 pmYou want rags to riches? How about J.K. Rowling. She was a single mother on welfare. The British government provides support for struggling artists of all kinds. Their public support allowed Rowlings to produce the Harry Potter series which has resulted in billions of dollars in business for films, publishing, products, etc. etc.
Just another example of how today’s conservatives are just 180 degrees off all the time.
February 23rd, 2007 at 12:58 pmThank you J-Rock, now I will tell you and all that read our post’s….I am a witch…Yep! a witch, against war’s, tree hugger and practice non violance and all the above daily..I especiely try to learn and honor all people and their faith’s or lack there of….Still I sometimes swear and fight back with the troll’s….BTW I thought the term troll’s was a Harry Potter referance untill I read here last week it was a referance to fishing…LOL…I’m still learning…Education and tolerance for all is a great goal…I try to practice love thought’s instead of fear thought’s.. Blessings and thank you again..
February 23rd, 2007 at 12:59 pmRegarding Bush, I think Barry Switzer said it best:
“Some people are born on third base and go through life thinking they hit a triple.”
February 23rd, 2007 at 1:01 pmHere is another article from The Economist, for all those of you out there who still think that, to become a rags-to-riches story, all you have to do is “work your way up the ladder”:
[...] more and more evidence from social scientists suggests that American society is much “stickier†than most Americans assume. Some researchers claim that social mobility is actually declining. A classic social survey in 1978 found that 23% of adult men who had been born in the bottom fifth of the population (as ranked by social and economic status) had made it into the top fifth. Earl Wysong of Indiana University and two colleagues recently decided to update the study. They compared the incomes of 2,749 father-and-son pairs from 1979 to 1998 and found that few sons had moved up the class ladder. Nearly 70% of the sons in 1998 had remained either at the same level or were doing worse than their fathers in 1979.
Meritocracy in America – Ever higher society, ever harder to ascend
In short: Chances are people will remain in their parents’ social class. With that knowledge, we can say poverty is a generational issue -people who are born to a poor family are very likely to remain poor throughout their lives.
February 23rd, 2007 at 1:05 pmSharon, I’m still a modestly orthodox Christian, and when I say “one of my best friends is a witch” I’m not kidding. A bestest buddy of mine is part of a coven, and though some of my views differ a bit from his, I love him dearly. Christians used to believe in peace and love, and I think now is a pretty good time for however many of those are left to join hands with all those who cherish these values, against those who believe only in material acquisition and power-seeking.
“For the first shall be last, and the last shall be first.”
February 23rd, 2007 at 1:07 pm#115 the right will not bring her up as an example because they fear offending their base who see her as an aide de camp to the anti christ.
February 23rd, 2007 at 1:14 pmMy favorite rags-to riches story is Eddie Murphy´s and Dan Akroyd´s. :D
Good posts (whats new?), Gregor, Mark but specially Bluedog. You got that right. Dale doenst even think about it.
What amazes me more is that he immediately took the position of “give them the cooki but not the whole jar”. He must think he is giving charity. Instead of complaining about the gap widening between classes, he surely complains about those poor people taking away so much free money. Dale lives in another planet, he sticks to the old rightist propaganda.
February 23rd, 2007 at 1:14 pm#113 BlueDog
February 23rd, 2007 at 1:27 pmAnd look at the depths to which T-Rump has sunk. Shaven head challenge with the venerable Mr. McMahon!
Old TF to new TF.
—————————————————–
I dont know the exact percentage but I read that what humans know about life in the oceans is a ridiculous small number.
Comment by Juan C
The answer Juan C. is 13%. That is all we know about life forms in the oceans and seas. Frightening isn’t it?
What happens if that Giant Squid turns out to be some other Giant Squids little sister?
Yikes!!
I guess then when the Bible says “serpents shall rise up out of the seas†in the Book of revelation, then it might be right huh?
Or make one hell of a bunch of calamari!
You are admitting this right Juan? sarcasm/on
ha lol lmao
LOL
February 23rd, 2007 at 1:28 pmOld TF to new TF.
—————————————————–
I dont know the exact percentage but I read that what humans know about life in the oceans is a ridiculous small number.
Comment by Juan C
The answer Juan C. is 13%. That is all we know about life forms in the oceans and seas. Frightening isn’t it?
What happens if that Giant Squid turns out to be some other Giant Squids little sister?
Yikes!!
I guess then when the Bible says “serpents shall rise up out of the seas†in the Book of revelation, then it might be right huh?
Or make one hell of a bunch of calamari!
You are admitting this right Juan? sarcasm/on
ha lol lmao
LOL
February 23rd, 2007 at 1:28 pmMy favorite rags-to-riches “success” story is Jean Paul Getty: He made his first million a few years after his father “gave” him a oil field in Oklahoma.
Poor people are dumb; they deserve to be poor. See, all they have to do is choose their parents carefully before making a commitment. Duh!
February 23rd, 2007 at 1:30 pmSahron ~ Amber is an Arabic name = Jewel!
February 23rd, 2007 at 1:31 pmI find it amazing that republicans love to tout rags to riches stories, but they seem to hate one particular rags to riches individual. I think they hate him because his overall achievements in life dwarf most of theirs and because he actually did go rags to riches, but did not join their club. He did not forget or seems to have not forgotten the people who are still at the poor end of the scale. How dare Bill Clinton work himself up from true poverty and not become a republican…no wonder they have so much venom for him and other like him like Harry Reid.
February 23rd, 2007 at 1:44 pmThe Bush administration has “demanded that Israel desist from even exploratory contacts with Syria [...] “
And Israel should give consideration to the Bush administration’s childish temper tantrums over to their own strategic interests because…. ?
Methinks the US is in no position to be demanding such things from Israel: Long after the Bush administration is gone, Israel will still be right there, next to Syria. It’s time they engaged their neighbors to try to find common ground.
February 23rd, 2007 at 1:46 pmThanks Juan. No hard feelings on that South American thing the other day I hope. Just jerking your chain.
February 23rd, 2007 at 1:48 pmThat sounds to me like Waltons started getting their $ by foreclosing on poor farmers’ dustbowl damaged property. Southerners used to call people like that “carpetbaggers” during the Reconstruction period.
“went to work in the mortgage industry to strongarm his neighbors out of the deeds to their land as the thug-lackey for some bankers”
February 23rd, 2007 at 1:49 pmA farmers son, esp in the depression, certainly doesn’t sound like middle class to me.
And *now* Mt. Lebanon is middle class; my ex-gf knew the Cuban family quite well; they were not upper middle class (I live in Pittsburgh, not just know people who live there).
I didn’t know that about Bill Gates, but moving from middle class to super-rich is a pretty big achievement. So maybe it’d be harder to move from poor to middle class, but it is possible.
So what’s your solution Juan. I mean besides the usual ‘end poverty’ platitude.
February 23rd, 2007 at 1:49 pm127 – They love bashin on holocaust survivor Geo. Soros, too. Nice people.
February 23rd, 2007 at 1:50 pm#131, sorry, should’ve been “And *now* Mt. Lebanon is upper middle class”
February 23rd, 2007 at 1:51 pmThe only solution is to strengthen the middle class. You do that with policies that help the dollar, the savings rate, home ownership, public education and unions. You do that with trade policies that don’t reward corporations for destroying American labor and avoiding taxes.
February 23rd, 2007 at 1:59 pmI mean besides the usual ‘end poverty’ platitude.
Comment by Dale
Distribution of wealth, Dale. Think about it.
February 23rd, 2007 at 2:03 pm#134.
Home ownership is the highest it’s ever been.
Public education? What exactly about public education? Give more money to public education? What about ’school choice’? Education has been costing more every year, but our rankings in the world has been getting worse. So pour even “more” money into failing public schools?
What policies would help the dollar? Help it do what?
Unions? What about them? Create more of them? Support them with gov’t funds?
February 23rd, 2007 at 2:07 pmLet me guess the conservative response to your post, Juan.
Take trillions from doubling the Social Security Tax and transfer it to the wealthy — OK.
Take an extra 3.5% from the most wealthy to pay off the debt — a horrible redistribution of wealth.
February 23rd, 2007 at 2:08 pmJust jerking your chain.
Comment by Bluedog49
I noticed that when you said: what were you thinking!!! Besides I wont engage some people (you, for example) here. They are smarter and much more informed than I am. :)
February 23rd, 2007 at 2:08 pmA farmers son, esp in the depression, certainly doesn’t sound like middle class to me.
Comment by Dale — February 23, 2007 @ 1:49 pm
The Waltons were not poor. Sam Walton’s father went back to working in the mortgage industry. Also, they were well-off enough to send him to college during the 1930s. That is not poor.
His father-in-law loaned him $20,000 in the 1940s to open his first store. A man with that kind of cash back then was not poor. Even nowadays a lot of people would have problems coming up with that much cash.
I didn’t know that about Bill Gates, but moving from middle class to super-rich is a pretty big achievement.
He was not middle-class. His family was very wealthy already.
As much of an accomplishment that it is to accumulate a vast fortune, Gates and the others are definitely not rags-to-riches stories.
It is not true that someone can become this wealthy just by hard work. Family connections play a big role as well -Gates and Walton are great examples of this.
So maybe it’d be harder to move from poor to middle class, but it is possible.
Did you check my links to the articles in The Economist and The Wall Street Journal? It is possible, but social class in the US is not as fluid as people believe. Some European countries have greater social mobility than the US.
February 23rd, 2007 at 2:10 pm#135.
Okay, distribution of wealth. So I’ve got a job in which I’m making, say, $120k/yr. Someone comes along and says “Hey Dale, come work for me; I’ll pay you $140k/yr, but you’ll have to work an extra 5 hours a week.” but with that extra 20k, I currently might keep about 14k after taxes. But ‘redistribution of wealth’ means that we tax the rich higher than we tax the poor. So instead of keeping an extra 14k, I might only keep 11k. Maybe the extra 3k would be the deciding factor on whether I would accept the new job or now.
Also; who do you know that keeps their money in a mattress? Any money I make, I do something with it; either buying things, paying off debt, or investing. So suppose I take the job and get the extra 14k. I might up my investments by 8k/yr. That’s another 8k that the company can use to hire new workers, or upgrade their equipment, or develop a new product.
But instead, you want to ‘redistribute the wealth’… the good old marxist way “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs”.
February 23rd, 2007 at 2:11 pmthe bucktoothed one is so so stupid
February 23rd, 2007 at 2:12 pmI always love when friends discuss how to get rich. Whenever they discuss Donald Trump and how he got rich I tell them it is easy to become a billionaire the Trump way. First start with half a billion dollars and connections, the rest is relatively easy. They seem genuinely shocked that Trump came from money and are usually under the impression that he has come from utter poverty to get where he is.
Sorry Dale, but my cousin’s family was upper middle class. My uncle was a research chemist VP for US Steel, so he was definitely not in poverty. Phil retired and moved out of the area so I have no opinion on Mt Lebanon after about 1979 or so, which is the last time I visited there. Now in the 1960’s and 1970’s would upper middle class or even middle class translate to today’s standards? Absolutely not. Guys like my uncle would live in trendier gated communities further out because the gap between middle and upper middle class has widened. But back then, during the era Cuban (And I since we are about the same age) grew up, it was a middle to upper middle class area. Heck the area I grew up in, very middle class suburbs north west of Chicago, had guys like Randy Hundley, Bob Love, Bruce Sutter, Ivan DeJesus and Walter Payton (before he moved to his custom built home) living nearby. Some of the area’s were nicer than others, but none was anything more than middle class.
Think about this too…Cuban made his money as a result of his love for Indiana Basketball. He invented something that someone was willing to pay a huge amount of money to obtain. All the more power to him, but hardly the years of laborious hard work that you imply it takes to become wealthy, he was able to come up with an idea and work it to his advantage, but it was not a long term endeavor. By the way I like Cuban, I think he is what sports ownership should be all about, not at all the Donald Stirling type. Why not discuss Oprah and how she rose to her current level. That was hard work and lots of time and effort went into her fortune, not a one time event.
With regards to Walton’s family, I believe you are taking your modern view of the depression and turning the whole of farming America into the dustbowl. Walton grew up comfortably, he is not a rags to riches story. Did he elevate his position in life? Sure, all of those people did, but if you want true rags to riches stories, you might bring up people like Oprah and Bill Clinton before you bring up Bill Gates and Sam Walton. By the way Gates was in no way shape or form middle class, gates was from a wealthy family. Jeesh, this is public knowledge you should be able to get it right.
The solution is to strengthen and expand the middle class. the best prospects for expansion are to improve the lot of the groups below the middle class. That can only be accomplished by education jobs and creating conditions to allow them to succeed.
February 23rd, 2007 at 2:14 pmDale, I don’t accept your conservative dogma about education. We have been cutting our education budgets for a long time. If you don’t think “throwing money at the problem” is the correct choice, please explain why the wealthy private schools spend much more per student than public schools do.
The dollar is weak because we have been borrowing and spending. Instead of borrowing money from the wealthy, we should raise their taxes.
And the times when our economy has been the strongest have been the times when unions were the strongest. We don’t need government money for unions, just laws which protect workers’ rights to belong to or to organize unions. Corporations don’t want a well-paid workforce. They want cheap labor. A strong middle class and strong families are not conducive to short-term corporate profits.
If you want to do something about poverty, cut off the amount of political power we have given our large corporations.
February 23rd, 2007 at 2:15 pmDale, the redistribution of wealth people are talking about is not taking money from upper-middle class white collar workers. That’s a cannard. Trillions of dollars from the Social Security trust fund, a fund grown by working-class paychecks, was transferred to the top 1 or 2% through Bush’s tax cuts. Conservatives never talk about that transfer because it was transferring wealth up, not down. I’m just saying give that money back to the Social Security fund and return to the same tax rates Clinton used to balance budgets — just 3.5% more at the top brackets.
February 23rd, 2007 at 2:21 pmAmen to that. Unions have a bad stigma… I suppose because of the mafia ties in the past. However, there are always “bad apples” even when the concept is good. Bush got elected twice, but I still believe in the USA’s form of governance.
More unions are needed, especially in today’s “new economy” workers. I work in the high tech industry where jobs are being outsourced to foreign countries for cheap labor left and right. Luckily, as an administrator, my job really needs to be on-site, or at worst, outsourced to an American company (which I have no problem with since jobs stay in this country). This industry, among others, NEEDS representation.
February 23rd, 2007 at 2:22 pmEducation has been costing more every year, but our rankings in the world has been getting worse. So pour even “more†money into failing public schools?Comment by Dale
Let me tell you what your country will look in some years if you DONT support public education: Mexico.
Mexico, every year is decreasing the amount of public investment in education, why? Becuz the ruling class doesnt need physicists, engineers or poets. They need hands at Wal-Mart, cooks, drivers, manufacturers of cheap products, etc. It is pretty much the situation after the Industrial Revolution; the owners of factories needed a lot of hands to make the machines work and due to the easy job, they “hired” women and kids, so they wouldnt have to pay fair incomes to those workers. The same here, companies are hiring unqualified workers becuz they dont care, they just want engineers to count boxes in some store. The real jobs are being made by a professional elite in developed countries.
Somebody said (my translation): Argentina is too poor to have the luxury of NOT investing in science and technology.
February 23rd, 2007 at 2:22 pmJ-Rock, great quote and post….I am a solatary witch, know several in coven’s but never found a coven I wanted to join….Good quote BTW and here’s a little Blessing I will pass on just for thought…No I did not write it, think it is by Ravenwolf but not sure…”Perfect love and perfect peace the world will dance as one..I dream the wish to make it real the magick now is done.”..All faith’s and like minded people can make the leap to change for peace and love, it’s no more diffacult than jumping over a broom that’s laying flat on the ground…
RU..I did not know that….I do have several pieces of amber and according to a lot of my reading it has healing power, luck, protection, beauty and love..I wear a lot of amber….BTW .RU…I am sending healing thought’s every day untill we get your good new’s.
To the poster’s that think people can pull them selves up by their boot strap’s. I say that is a typical of a neo con mentalety…Think for one moment the million’s in our world who do not have boot’s (shoes) and while you have that train of thought think of the million’s of children that will be lucky to have any arm’s and leg’s left when all those miserable cluster bomb’s are done going off….How about the truly devastated people that are scrounging in dumps for a scrap of food..Lastly imagin if you will, many of them if fed and educated could be world leaders for the good not greed. Let’s work toward’s saving people in the world, not bombing them…Blessings
February 23rd, 2007 at 2:29 pmBut instead, you want to ‘redistribute the wealth’… the good old marxist way “From each according to his ability, to each according to his needsâ€.
Comment by Dale
Marx´s communist manifesto was a response to the then prevailing, exploiting situation that workers lived in a capitalist system. They were not evil workers or lazy workers, Dale. They were people (and are) living in poor, miserable conditions that worked to make a rich some guy really lazy, I would suggest you to look what surplus mean. I would suggest you to take a trip to any Bangladesh factory and see who is the lazy one, the workers or the owners.
So, good old my ideas all you want. This prevailing system is unsustainable and it will fall.
February 23rd, 2007 at 2:30 pmJuan: “Let me tell you what your country will look in some years if you DONT support public education: Mexico.”
Juan, that’s exactly what large corporations want. They want a large underclass of cheap labor with no political power. As Adam Smith predicted, their goals are not the same as the goals of a civil society.
Thomas Jefferson understood this: “I hope we shall crush in its birth the aristocracy of our monied corporations which dare already to challenge our government to a trial by strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country.â€
February 23rd, 2007 at 2:30 pmI am a piper, bob. And I got paid. The kid was a Marine. Closed casket.
Again, as I did at the time, I commend you and appreciate what you did for that young mans family in a time of great distress. And my appreciation comes from the bottom of my heart.
What tune are you calling?
Comment by Briseadh na Faire — February 23, 2007 @ 11:48 am
Do you know any KISS? Maybe some Ted Nugent? Seriously, I do understand the risk that comes with my job. I also understand that if I do not do my job, someone else has to. It may be an odd way of thinking for some, but I look at it as, the two tours I did in Iraq prevented someone else from having to go there.
February 23rd, 2007 at 2:32 pmOkay, real-life rags-to-riches… Chris Gardner, now in a movie by Will Smith, but based on a true story.
He lived with his mother, Bettye Jean Gardner, whom he adored, and, when necessary, in foster homes. Despite a life of hardship and emotional scarring, his mother provided him with strong “spiritual genetics” and taught him some of the greatest lessons of his life, which he follows to this day. Bettye Jean convinced him that in spite of where he came from, he could attain whatever goals he set for himself by saying, “If you want to, one day you could make a million dollars.”
Uh, oh, a successful rags-to-riches… wait, a successful FOSTER CHILD rags-to-riches… wait, a successful BLACK, FOSTER CHILD rags-to-riches.
Is his story going to happen to everyone? Of course not. But he’s proof that with enough hard work, you CAN go from dirt-poor to rich.
February 23rd, 2007 at 2:32 pmhacker bob: “I do not do my job, someone else has to.”
Ironically, that was the very reason why rich boys John Kerry and Al Gore joined the military and went to Nam. Very noble. But, you guys preferred the guy who couldn’t even fulfill his National Guard duties and specified that he didn’t want to be deployed to Nam. Bob, it’s a strange world.
February 23rd, 2007 at 2:37 pmForTruth,
This is “probably not” the story to which you referred in your post about disappearing articles, but nonetheless, this one is very, very enlightening!
I will search high and low for the story in which you refer and post here okay?
If it’s out there, I will find it.
PS try this link too. They are an awesome site!
They ususally hold onto their articles FOREVER!!
http://www.indymedia.org
———————————————————————
http://www.the7thfire.com/9-11/Pastore_Investigation_of_%209-11/table_of_contents.htm
———————————————————————-
An Independent Investigation of 9-11
and its Zionist Connection
by Dr. Albert Pastore
Immediately after the 9-11 attacks, former Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was asked what the attack would mean for US-Israeli relations. His quick reply was: “It’s very good……. Well, it’s not good, but it will generate immediate sympathy (for Israel)”.
“Evidence linking these Israelis to 9-11 is classified. I cannot tell you about evidence that has been gathered. It’s classified information.â€
— U.S. official
quoted in Carl Cameron’s Fox News report
on the Israeli spy ring and its connections to 9-11.
“Every time we do something, you [Shimon Peres] tell me America will do this and will do that.. I want to tell you something very clear: Don’t worry about American pressure on Israel. We, the Jewish people, control America, and the Americans know it.â€
— Ariel Sharon
Israeli Prime Minister, homicidal psychopath
Jewish Mafia member
Knesset, Tel Aviv, October 3, 2001
“Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can be used to disallow terror as a means of war… We are very far from any moral hesitations when concerned with the national struggle. First and foremost, terror is for us a part of the political war appropriate for the circumstances of today…â€
— Yitzhak Shamir
Israeli Prime Minister, Zionist terrorist
in an August 1943 article titled “Terrorâ€, written for Hazit
the journal of Lehi, the terrorist organization he belonged to
Foreword: Dogs That Don’t Bark
Chapter 1: Opening Statement
Chapter 2: The Dancing Israelis
Chapter 3: Zionism and World War I
Chapter 4: Zionism and World War II
Chapter 5: Great Britain’s Turn to be Betrayed
Chapter 6: America Becomes The Zionists’ Main Beast of Burden
Chapter 7: Zionist Power Structure in America
Chapter 8: The Butcher Sharon
Chapter 9: Advance Warnings
Chapter 10: The September 11 Dance Party
Chapter 11: Who Was Really Flying Those Planes?
Chapter 12: Who Provided Protective Cover for the 9-11 Operation?
Chapter 13: The Curious Collapse of the Twin Towers and WTC # 7
Chapter 14: The Miracle of Passover
Chapter 15: Framing Bin Laden
Chapter 16: Hundreds of Mossad Agents Running Wild in America!
Chapter 17: The FBI Agents Who Tried to Warn Us
Chapter 18: Foxman’s Famous Flunkies
Chapter 19: The Anthrax Letters: Yet Another Anti-Arab Frame-up
Chapter 20: Follow the Phony Trail: Deductive Logic Reveals True Culprits
Chapter 21: Zionists Want to Trick America into World War III
Chapter 22: Is America Becoming a Police State?
Chapter 23: Closing Arguments & Quote from George Washington
GO TO CHAPTER 1 >> “…it is contrary to the wishes of G-d to create a Jewish State.” Chief Rabbi Yosef tzvi Dushinsky
See also:
February 23rd, 2007 at 2:38 pmMossad Duped US, UK Into Iraq War
Mossad Caught Faking al-Qaeda
9-11 a Mossad-CIA “False Flag Operation
Colonel Donn de Grand-Pre Interview
Fake Terror–the Road to Dictatorship
Zionism vs Jews Israel’s False Flag Attack on the USS Liberty
The Zionist Connection to 9-11
Zionist-Israeli Roots of Hamas exposed
Marines in Beirut Not Warned by Mossad
Mossad Local Assistants in West
Turning over Stones Finds Israeli Mossad
Dale, you CAN win the lottery if you buy a ticket.
February 23rd, 2007 at 2:41 pm#153, and if all you rely on is the lottery, or gov’t handouts, you’ll be poor forever.
February 23rd, 2007 at 2:50 pmIs his story going to happen to everyone? Of course not.
Comment by Dale — February 23, 2007 @ 2:32 pm
Which is what we’ve been trying to tell you. Gardner is also proof that rules have exceptions.
Plus, what Juan, myself, and others have also been trying to tell you is that the objective is not to have a system that allows a few to become wealthy beyond their wildest dreams, but one that allows the vast majority, if not all, to live comfortably; and by that I mean, one that provides access to education, health care, to its citizens and where nobody goes hungry.
Juan already pointed out something I think is worth repeating: Everytime conservatives advocate cuts to public spending (whether educaton, health care, and other social services), what they are unwittingly -or perhaps very much knowingly- working towards is a society like many in Latin America, where wealth is concentrated in the hands of the few, huge numbers of people live in squalor, and the infrastructure is decrepit.
Social spending is not a “handout” or goes to fund “entitlement programs” -it is an investment in the future of any nation.
February 23rd, 2007 at 2:56 pmDale the republican pet “school choice” would fail on a grand scale if enacted. The problem with schools is not choice, it is not safety (though safety is an offshoot problem), it is not money, it is not teachers unions, it is not teacher quality, the problem with schools is in the home. If the republicans got their way with everything (god help us) and school choice etc… was the norm you know what would happen? The same kids who fail in the school they have to go to would be failing in the schools they choose to go to. If they are bad students with poor support systems at home now, they will be bad students in the school of their choice. Additionally if everyone got to choose they might all have the same list of schools to choose from. So the currently private school A as it exists today suddenly has 9,000 applicants for their 400 slots. They are going to choose and admit the top 400 kids and chances are those are the same 400 who were going there before the magic choice came into being. The next school B would be the second choice for those 9,000 kids as it may have been before the magic solution of school choice came about. School B will choose the next 400 kids and so on down the line until you get to school Z which ends up with the same broken students they had before. then the argument becomes what’s wrong with the schools? Must be the choices offered, how do we fix it? Nope, the fix is in the family (in this case I am referring to both broken families and those who put the emphasis in areas other than education success) and in making education more attractive and relevant for these people. The whole point of vouchers and choice of schools etc…is for the republicans who favor it to get their Andover education paid for by the taxpayer. But it is their choice to go to those schools. They most likely would succeed in public schools if they succeed in private schools. Why don’t republicans understand or admit that regardless of school choice or not, it will still be the same kids going to school?
Dale, your little scenario is very simple, but it boils down to this, is the 5 hours per week extra worth the $11,000 take home to you? How about if you knew that $3,000 was going to make a difference in someone’s life and that the quality of life in our country was going to increase as a result? Would you take that into account? How about if you knew that the government was going to spend that extra $3,000 making bombs to kill foreigners? Or use that $3,000 to enhance the lives of Iraqi students etc… My point being that you seem to look at that problem only in terms of Dale and what you get out of it, you seem to not want to let any of that cash go to what I am assuming you feel are undeserving people in this country, yet you have not expressed any displeasure with the spending habits of the current administration. I knew we were screwed with this administration from day one, but really began to fear them with the Medicare package (talk about a waste of your tax dollars, and I might add, not using free market principles in negotiating with the drug companies), and their use of no-bid, no review cost plus contracts (hello? where is the incentive for any contractor to be efficient? So much for the private sector always being more efficient…not when there are no incentives to be efficient). Where is your outrage? You don’t want them to spend money on Americans, but you don’t seem to mind when they act in a very un-conservative manner. When I was a conservative, conservatives were all about spending the money responsibly, now the only thing they seem to care about is the size of their tax bill. Until you look at these interrelated problems across the board, You really don’t have much credibility.
February 23rd, 2007 at 3:00 pmGregor Samsa, I love you post’s, you are a much better writer than I…Thank you for your contribution’s….Blessings all…I am finelly leaving for awhile.
February 23rd, 2007 at 3:02 pmSo Dale’s argument is down to winning the lottery.
Dale when do you give up?
February 23rd, 2007 at 3:04 pmNot to belittle a man who DID work hard to get where he is, but there is a lot of luck in that story that remains unreported. He works in an industry where you can succeed as easily as you fail. He just as easily could have taken the same risks and never made it out of the public bathroom he slept in during his climb to the top. And not for lack of effort or intelligence — just bad luck.
You see he did work hard where many others do not, but there ARE others like him who work hard and never become rich. By your logic they just didn’t work hard enough, but the truth is that they just made similar risky decisions that didn’t pan out successfully like his did, in their quest for success and wealth.
If working hard was the only indicator of being rich, the Bush family wouldn’t be where they are. They are incredibly lazy (aristocrats and “nobels” usually are). I’ve never heard a President complain about how much hard work being president is EVER.
You also would find many single mothers and fathers holding down three jobs to support their family getting rich where in reality they are barely able to scrape by.
It just doesn’t work out all the time.
Conservatives always love to find the one success story that proves their theories right, ignoring the millions that prove it wrong. Simple statistics.
That’s why a social net is necessary.
February 23rd, 2007 at 3:15 pm#157… uh, when did I ever mention the lottery?
Hard work, ForTruth… hard work.
February 23rd, 2007 at 3:16 pmIronically, that was the very reason why rich boys John Kerry and Al Gore joined the military and went to Nam.[...]
Comment by Bluedog49 — February 23, 2007 @ 2:37 pm
Gore was a reporter, he did 5 months in Nam. He was sent home early as a drawdown that included his unit. He has tried to pass himself off as a “hard combat vet”.
According to Michael O’Hara, Gore’s closest army buddy, “We never pulled guard duty in the field because we weren’t part of those units.
Kerry, we all know his story. ‘Nuff said.
Yes, they both served. But there is speculation as to the quality of their service.
Bush served. Does he have a DD214? If so, his service is concidered complete. And yes, there is a lot of speculation about the quality (and quantity) of his service as well.
Here is one for you. Bill Clinton did not serve. But the Dems preferred a guy that did NO service to is country.
February 23rd, 2007 at 3:21 pmSharon Cox,
I try =)
Seriously, thanks for the kind words.
February 23rd, 2007 at 3:22 pmI’ve never heard a President complain about how much hard work being president is EVER.
Comment by Parrotlover77 — February 23, 2007 @ 3:15 pm
What!? Clearing brush in a ranch doesn’t count!? :-O
Who would have thunk?
/sarcasm off
February 23rd, 2007 at 3:26 pmGore was a reporter, he did 5 months in Nam. He was sent home early as a drawdown that included his unit. He has tried to pass himself off as a “hard combat vetâ€.
February 23rd, 2007 at 3:28 pmfrom you own link, hacker bob:
by Carolyn Gargaro, a conservative, who supported Paula Jones along with Anne Coulter.
hmmmm, an early swift boater, p’haps?
Republican presidents who also did not serve in the military.
William Howard Taft
Warren G. Harding
Calvin Coolidge
Herbert Hoover
Serving is not a requirement for presidency on purpose. It’s a civilian position. And if Bush’s serving in the military is any indication that those who serve can screw up as badly (or worse) than those who don’t……
February 23rd, 2007 at 3:30 pmComment by Parrotlover77 — February 23, 2007 @ 3:30 pm
Personally, I do not care if the President(any) serve or not. I am not the one that brought up the issue. The only thing I really wanted to point out was that
Kerry’s service has questions
Gore’s service has questions
Bush’s service has questions
The part about Clinton was just the fact the all the others have done some service for their country while still young, and he didn’t. He pulled a Cheny instead.
February 23rd, 2007 at 3:43 pmComment by DRxJ — February 23, 2007 @ 3:28 pm
Here, from Wiki:
The chronology of Gore’s military service is:
August 1969: Enlisted at the Newark, New Jersey recruiting office.
August to October 1969: Eight weeks of basic training at Fort Dix, New Jersey.
Late October 1969 to December 1970: writer for the Army Flier newspaper at Fort Rucker, Alabama.
January 2, 1971 to May 22, 1971: field reporter in Vietnam, part of the 20th Engineer Brigade, stationed primarily at Bien Hoa Air Base northeast of Saigon.
May 24, 1971: Given an honorable discharge, after his early discharge request was granted.
Looks like an incommplete contract to me. I wonder if his Dad helped secure that early discharge?
Honestly, until today, I had no idea whether or not Gore had served. It was never an issue for me. But this is fun!!!
February 23rd, 2007 at 3:53 pmI never served.
February 23rd, 2007 at 3:59 pmhacker bob,
please read the last paragraph of this link:
http://www.snopes.com/politics/military/gorevietnam.asp
It may help explain the early discharge you’re asking about
February 23rd, 2007 at 4:05 pmBob – How does Al’s service compare to the Pres. and the VP – just wondering.
February 23rd, 2007 at 4:07 pmThe only people questioning the service of Kerry and Gore are Republican pundits and talking heads. No branch of the military nor any legitimate news organization has ever questioned it. The closest any unpartial organization came was not questioning Kerry’s service as much as questioning the “hero” angle played up by his presidential campaign. That was a tactical mistake, really, and was not so much controversial on the fact that he served or what he did, simply just whether his story was as “G.I. Joe” heroic as people were playing him up to be. The fact is, he was a fine soldier, and if his campaign would have not put so much emphasis on his serving, there still wouldn’t be any legitimate question of his service.
Gore… Come on. Even the pundits BARELY touched on that issue and nobody has ever found anything remarkable or questionable there worth mentioning. There’s no controversy here at all. Just made up stories, just like how the “invented the internet” rumor took over the world. I bet at least 50% of all Americans to this day still think he said that WHICH HE NEVER DID. He’s a magnet for nasty rumors… Which is weird because in reality he’s squeeky clean — virgin mary clean! — compared to most politicians.
Bush’s service was only mildly scrutinized in the media and the fake memos 60 minutes turned up pretty much killed any further investigation into that matter. So he’s really the only one that’s “up in the air” there.
When will McCain’s service be dragged into the gutter, I wonder? Oh wait! It already was by W back in 2000. I may think McCain would be a terrible president, but to show I’m not just only supporting Dems who served, I will say that McCain is 100% of legit on his service.
February 23rd, 2007 at 4:11 pmComment by tom baker
Let’s see, Gore has a DD214(discharge papers indicating a completed contract), Bush has a DD214(discharge papers indicating a completed contract). Cheny has none.
Next question.
February 23rd, 2007 at 4:11 pmComment by Parrotlover77 — February 23, 2007 @ 4:11 pm
Of all the above that you mentioned, McCain is the only one that can prove he is 100% on his service.
February 23rd, 2007 at 4:15 pmAll right, Condom-Lesser, we won’t think about it, we’ll go ahead and DO IT, we will contact Syria. By the way, “Doctor” Rice, I have this strange pain in my ass…said Karl Rove after an “intensive session” with Gannon/Guckert.
February 23rd, 2007 at 4:20 pmAh Yes, “Imperial Life in The Emerald City(tm)” of Iraq…makes OZ(tm) look like a piker by comparison, nicht wahr, Bushland Uber Allies?
Now that Tony Blair and the Labour Party(tm) have had their political future and careers DESTROYED by CHIMPya/Cheney and Bushland Uber Allies, he can say whatever the HELL(tm) he wants to with impunity and a middle finger in the eyes of CHIMPya/Cheney!!!!!
Winkenwerder–the “fall guy” like Wilmer in THE MALTESE FALCON(tm) played so effectively by Elisha Cook, Jr.(tm)
Such a MISHEGOSS(senseless behaviour or activity, tomfoolery, lunacy) that these MESHUGANAS(crazy people) are pulling–OY GEVALT!!!!!
Wolfowitz? Is he still sticking his UNSLIGHTLY PROBOSCIS from his UGLY VISAGE into matters that DON’T CONCERN him? Wolfie needs a good slap on his head and a punch in his ugly face from me IRON FIST!!
Yes, the poor get poorer and the rich get richer and the SCUMBAGS CHIMPya, Torticola Cheney, Rove, Rice, Bushland Uber Allies are living the LIFE OF RILEY Thanx to BIG OIL, the Military Industrial Complex, Big Business and other parasites upon society that should be DESTROYED, not fostered and pampered by Bushland Uber Allies!!!!!
What do you mean “disproportionately high”? Who sponsored this study? A rightwingnut group who wanted to see who the disenfranchised, read “their enemy” were?
Ah Yes, stoking the flames of racial and religious hatred and intolerance–THAT’S THE UN-AMERICAN WAY, courtesy of rightwingnut repugnant-repubs and jingoistic demagogue spinners like Michelle Malkin, that vile Fili-penis!
Stephen Breyer could out-THINK and out-TALK the cretins on that show as well as his vile colleagues like Scalia, Thomas, Roberts and Alito with one-half of his brain tied behind his back!!!!!
sure bobbio – we all already know the story of dubbie’s pseudo-service……tee hee
funny too, that you would prove unable to document what dubbie did or didn’t do, because the records have all been locked up in his daddy’s library, safe from FOIA requests……though it causes one to wonder, if it was honorable and you were proud of it, why would you hide and lock up the truth about it……wwjd?
February 23rd, 2007 at 4:25 pmMcCain is the only one that can prove he is 100% on his service.
February 23rd, 2007 at 4:29 pmComment by hacker bob — February 23, 2007 @ 4:15 pm
Okay, explain to me about the Kerry’s questionable service.
Other than the Swift Boaters who have been totally debunked, such as here:
http://mediamatters.org/items/200408050007
Bob, bob, bob.
February 23rd, 2007 at 4:29 pmI got an early out too.
By volunteering to go to Nam from Germany, four months were shaved off my “contract”. I was a three year RA who served 2years 8 months.
Geez.
Still reading those links, hacker bob?
February 23rd, 2007 at 4:54 pmI never served.
Comment by ForTruth
ROTFL!!
February 23rd, 2007 at 4:58 pmHacker Bob, sorry, but with your mini dissection of Gore/Kerry Bush etal you begin to lose what credibility you had developed. Has anyone even remotely familiar with the military history of the US knows that very few troops who served in Vietnam were actually in danger zones. I have read that we had anywhere from a 1-10 to 1-8 tooth to tail ratio. That is anywhere from 10 or 8 rear echelon troops for each combat troop. Of course lots of those tail types were chopper pilots and air force pilots etc…these guys did see the bullets fly, and some of those tail types (REMF’s) were reporters/photographers. Some were combat photogs/reporters but most were in the rear with the gear. But they all were there in Vietnam. Some volunteered (like Gore) some were drafted, but they were there. George Walker Bush was not there, period. Does he have a DD214? I don’t honestly know, and that is irrelevant. We all know that back in the 1960’s and early 1970’s the guard was where you went when your time in college was up and when you did not want to go to Nam. The guard had huge waiting lists and many of the privileged used connections to vault over those waiting lists. Bush is rumored to have gotten in in that very manner, but that is irrelevant too. The fact is that he was in the guard. The guard is not what it is today and back then the guard was looked down upon as a place for draft dodgers to hide when they did not have the stones to run to Canada. When I was in Basic (1983) our Drills (5 out 8 were Nam graduates) asked about who was guard and who was regular army, they then rode those guys harder than the rest of us and frequently made disparaging remarks about the guard and those who serve in it. So please what it was back then is not what it is today and any attempts to compare the two are absolutely dishonest. In a nutshell Gore and Kerry were there regardless of what you might think of them and Bush has claimed he would have gone if asked, well, he could have gone had he joined the regular army rather than the guard, I don’t recall them turning anybody down back then. You may not like what I wrote, but my memory is very clear on this. I even remember going with my dad to veterans meetings and those WWII guys continually heaped scorn on the Vietnam guys because they were not fighting the panzers (though they all admit that patrolling in no-man’s land is the hardest thing they did) but those guys had special venom in their hearts for the people in the guard, things like that make an impression on a young boy.
Nice job brining up the Kerry Issue again too. The only people to try and discredit him have been republican operatives inventing wild stories which have been proven false time and time again. My favorite was the guy who said that he served on the same boat as Kerry and he would not want him as his president. Turned out the guy did serve on the same boat…after Kerry left. What he said was accurate, but it was presented as a lie. Ditto for the ONE guy on his crew who spoke against him while the rest spoke out for him. That guy said that he did not care he would did not want a democrat as president. Hmmm, which one did the swift boating republicans latch onto? Whatever you think of him is one thing, but to continue on this line of disparaging his service and attempt at casting doubt on him is absolutely disgusting and you should be ashamed of yourself. But you are following the republican M.O. of loving the soldier and hating the veteran. Someday if you ever speak out publicly and you do not follow party line, you too will have your service reamed out publicly. You can try to say that you were not intending anything, but simply brining up that there are questions about his service is the same as throwing the same lump of shit back out there. Ditto for the way they continually assault Murtha, and Tammy Duckworth here in Illinois. That ignorant fuck who won ran against Duckworth ibis not fit to even mention the military let alone slander the service of someone who lost both legs in a venture that her opponent nor his children will ever be personally involved in. It is one thing to attack policy etc… it ibis quite another to assault the service, and you only perpetuate the situation.
By the way I don’t know if you knew this or not, but Bill Clinton has been out of office for eight years now. I don’t know if you knew this either, but serving in the military is not a prerequisite for being president. But since you brought up the Clinton thing, perhaps you need to refresh us on the story. The way history records it Clinton used political ties to get accepted into an ROTC program. But then his draft number came up low and he dropped the program and has been called a draft dodger ever since. Psst, then everyone who went undrafted is a draft dodger. Is it the best path for him to have taken? Probably not for the pundits, but he still was elected president. And I would say it is probably more honorable than deferment Dick Cheny’s path. Of course there is the protest against the war, but two things…is it any different than someone like dirty dick getting his deferments? Isn’t that a form of protesting the war? and most importantly…The war protestors were right. We should have never been there, and iit turns out we were there on the basis of lies and manufactured evidence. Also in case you have not notiiced, Bill Clinton has spent nearly his entiire adult life in service to his country…
#166 don’t forget Reagan served, but he served making films, in the rear (stateside)
February 23rd, 2007 at 5:07 pmSharon,
Great posts, all, as usual. Sorry I missed you.
Amber — so beautiful & warm — especially if there’s a tiny spider in it. Gorgeous.
February 23rd, 2007 at 5:19 pmMistress Z ~ I’ll see if I can’t get a pix of us on Faceplace.
February 23rd, 2007 at 5:23 pmBob, I didn’t mean for that comment to start a “who served” debate. I only pointed out that both of those guys knew men in their own towns and decided to enlist because they didn’t want someone else taking their place because they came from priviledged backgrounds. I do want to point out though, that the difference between Cheney and Clinton is that Clinton did not support the war. Cheney supported the war, but wanted other kids to fight it for him. Hence, the name, “chickenhawk.” Clinton didn’t want anyone’s kids fighting it.
February 23rd, 2007 at 5:34 pmhttp://newsmine.org/
News and Document archive source for uncovering and exposing
February 23rd, 2007 at 5:41 pmwith over 10,000 articles and documents
Mistress Z ~ I’ll see if I can’t get a pix of us on Faceplace.
Comment by RUCerious
Dude, I won’t be able to see it if you don’t add me to your friends list. :P
February 23rd, 2007 at 6:31 pmAnother interesting comment-worthy topic:
Chimpanzees living in the West African savannah have been observed fashioning spears from sticks and using the handcrafted tools to hunt small mammals — the first routine production of deadly weapons ever seen in nonhuman animals.
February 23rd, 2007 at 7:16 pm[...]
The landmark observation also supports the long-debated proposition that females — the main makers and users of spears among the Senegalese chimps — tend to be the innovators and creative problem-solvers in primate culture.
Chimps make wood spears, kill smaller animals for food
Comment by RUCerious
Good, you got an early out.
I said Gore got an early out and I wondered if his dad had anything to do with it.
Comment by tom baker
If the records are “locked up” then no one can say his service was NOT honorable either. And I admitted that there were questions about his service.
Comment by DRxJ
Ok, unless I see anything to dispute that, I have no choice but to accept it. I stand corrected.
Bob, I didn’t mean for that comment to start a “who served†debate.
Comment by Bluedog49
I know you did not intend to start that debate. I appreciate anyone that did or does serve, even if I disagree with them politically.
February 23rd, 2007 at 8:34 pmHere is one for you TP.
Former ACLU Chapter President Arrested for Child Pornography
Defender of our rights (unless you are under 18 years old and cute).
February 23rd, 2007 at 8:38 pmMore deja vus:
Much of the intelligence on Iran’s nuclear facilities provided to UN inspectors by American spy agencies has turned out to be unfounded, according to diplomatic sources in Vienna.
February 23rd, 2007 at 8:46 pmThe claims, reminiscent of the intelligence fiasco surrounding the Iraq war, coincided with a sharp increase in international tension as the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) reported that Iran was defying a UN security council ultimatum to freeze its nuclear programme.
US intelligence on Iran does not stand up, say Vienna sources
Defender of our rights (unless you are under 18 years old and cute).
Comment by hacker bob
Ew. He needs to be neutered.
February 23rd, 2007 at 9:04 pmPost’s disappearing again..What’s up with that.?..Didn’t even swear,,LOL..Blessings
February 23rd, 2007 at 9:33 pmHere we go again..Yep! Zooey, bad stallion’s and bad men need an attitude adjustment…..Guilding is a good solution….I wonder if there is a job oportunity there?…Hummm. I would apply but they would all end up unichs..Real girlie men…LOL..Blessings
February 23rd, 2007 at 9:38 pmEw. He needs to be neutered.
Comment by Zooey
Now, you know I am just waiting for someone to scream, “But, but, Mark Foley……”
I think this is a clear demonstration that there a sick f*cks on all sides of the political spectrum.
February 23rd, 2007 at 9:41 pmI think this is a clear demonstration that there a sick f*cks on all sides of the political spectrum.
Comment by hacker bob
I thought that was understood. BTW, I know members of the ACLU who are Republicans. Just sayin’
Sharon,
Ouch. Heh.
February 23rd, 2007 at 10:09 pmComment by Mark #100
Thanks for setting those greedy “One day I can be rich and oppress people too” conned’self-servative, racist, al Crackkker, basta*ds:
Dale and hacker boob…
…straight…
February 24th, 2007 at 1:19 amComment by big papa — February 24, 2007 @ 1:19 am
What did I say that was racist? You sit there daily and make comments about “al crakkker”. Do you realize that the term cracker is a RACIST term? I have posted the definition several time. But I guess is your opinion every white person is supposed to fall at the feet of minorities. Sorry, wrong answer.
Calling for an equal standard to be applied to everyone is not racist. Giving preferences to someone because of their race is racist.
Besides, we were discussing poverty, that knows no racial bounds.
Sorry, my friend, YOU are the racist.
February 24th, 2007 at 8:49 amDo you realize that the term cracker is a RACIST term? I have posted the definition several time. But I guess is your opinion every white person is supposed to fall at the feet of minorities.
Sorry, my friend, YOU are the racist.
Comment by hacker bob #193
…the term al Crackkker does NOT refer to ALL white people…
…if you WEREN’T an al Crackkker (racist)…
…you would HAVE KNOWN that the term doesn’t apply to ALL whites…
…but because what little conscience you have was tweaked…
…you IDENTIFY with it…
…you know the TRUTH about yourself, your family, friends, co-workers, neighbors et al…
….how you REALLY feel about THOSE people (minorities) when you’re not around them and in your comfort zones…
…especially those BLACKS…who threaten your manhood (or expose the lack thereof)…
…daily…
…STOP me when I’ve lied…
February 24th, 2007 at 5:20 pmGet a life duesche bags
February 25th, 2007 at 10:12 pmhbo’s oz
I Googled for something completely different, but found your page…and have to say thanks. nice read.
March 14th, 2008 at 6:01 pmKaran
I am very impressed with your site. The quality of the design and content makes it a real winner! Thanks again for a great site and a great resource on the net.
March 18th, 2008 at 2:47 amBad Credit Loans Personal Loan Auto Loan Calculator
I can not agree with you in 100% regarding some thoughts, but you got good point of view
March 18th, 2008 at 6:34 ambad credit mortgage illinois
March 18th, 2008 at 9:08 amindiana fishing laws
Your blog makes very interesting reading. I’m sure others will think so too I look forward to reading their comments.
March 20th, 2008 at 2:19 pmProm Dresses Hat Hollister Clothing
I can not agree with you in 100% regarding some thoughts, but you got good point of view
March 21st, 2008 at 6:43 amHarry Convict
The pen is really mightier than the sword, as you have proven here.
March 22nd, 2008 at 4:03 pmGay Incest Old Gay Men Gay Male Galleries
I can not agree with you in 100% regarding some thoughts, but you got good point of view
March 23rd, 2008 at 8:23 pmGay Sex Gay Ass Gay Ass
I can not agree with you in 100% regarding some thoughts, but you got good point of view
March 24th, 2008 at 5:20 amAccounting Financial Financial Success
I can not agree with you in 100% regarding some thoughts, but you got good point of view
March 24th, 2008 at 4:04 pmbackground check software free trial
I’m with the earlier poster, this seems like a good idea.
March 25th, 2008 at 11:23 ambest fixed mortgage rate uk
This Mortgage crisis has me kind of torn, as it occurred due to everyone’s greed, banks, investors, homeowners trying to live beyond their means etc. Should the Gov’t bail these greedy people out? I don’t know but I feel bad for people and famili…
March 26th, 2008 at 2:05 pmHellen
I have seen many sites before and most of them do not look this good. I cannot wait to let my friends know about this site. Thanks for the excellent content.
March 30th, 2008 at 4:17 amDistance Learning Teachers Having Sex With Students Very Hot School Girls
I can not agree with you in 100% regarding some thoughts, but you got good point of view
March 30th, 2008 at 4:52 amcustom logo t shirt
Didn’t realise there was this type of information out there
April 1st, 2008 at 5:23 amFree Granny Porn Lesbian Milfs Free Mom And Son Sex
I can not agree with you in 100% regarding some thoughts, but you got good point of view
April 2nd, 2008 at 6:39 am[...] Channel” Posted on 2/23/2007 9:28 AM by kentApprove (6) | Reject (0) | My vote: None Think Progress UK Prime Minister Tony Blair yesterday “declared himself at odds with hawks in the US [...]
April 2nd, 2008 at 12:57 pmAll about Digimon Adventure Online Game. Digimon Adventure Fans Blog….
…Digimon is a small virtual pet. You can download and play an online RPG in the Digimon universe. It looks and feels like 2D graphic RPG adventure. You can train and level up your Digimon, make hundreds of quests, and travel through a huge universe a…
February 26th, 2009 at 1:38 pmShag Hairstyles and Haircuts…
shag hairstyle basically gotits name from the word “shaggy” since …once the hair is cutand layered it gives off a shaggy look. The shag hairstyle has always been apopular hairstyle, and there are plenty ofshag hairstyles to choose from…
March 30th, 2009 at 8:22 amThe truth about Arbonne Skin Care Products…
Arbonne is one of the main companies in the world when it comes to beauty and skin care. Its skin care line is one of the best in the world that many women. The products of Arbonne skin care products are developed in Switzerland….
April 24th, 2009 at 3:54 am