Former Army Specialist: U.S. Troops ‘Turn To TV And Movies’ For Torture Techniques
Former Army Specialist: U.S. Troops ‘Turn To TV And Movies’ For Torture Techniques
The television show 24 has become a foreign policy guide for the right wing. Numerous conservative pundits have cited 24 as a sanction for harsh interrogation practices. In September, Laura Ingraham stated, “The average American out there loves the show 24. … In my mind that’s close to a national referendum that it’s OK to use tough tactics against high-level Al Qaeda operatives as we’re going to get.”
Brigadier General Patrick Finnegan recently told the 24 producers that he was concerned that the show’s promotion of illegal torture “was having a damaging effect on young troops.” In a new interview with Newsweek, former U.S. Army specialist Tony Lagouranis, who left the military with an honorable discharge in 2005, confirms Finnegans fears — that U.S. soldiers did take cues from 24 to torture prisoners:
Interrogators didn’t have guidance from the military on what to do because we were told that the Geneva Conventions didn’t apply any more. So our training was obsolete, and we were encouraged to be creative. We turned to television and movies to look for ways of interrogating. I can say that I saw that with myself, also. I would adopt the posture of the television or movie interrogator, thinking that establishing that simple power arrangement, establishing absolute power over the detainee, would force him to break. …
[We adopted mock] executions and mock electrocution, stress positions, isolation, hypothermia. Threatening to execute family members or rape detainees’ wives and things like that.
Lagouranis has teamed up with Human Rights First to advocate against torture, noting that what is seen on 24 “is not an effective technique for gaining intelligence.” Kiefer Sutherland, the actor who stars as Jack Bauer, has also said that the torture techniques employed in the show are not effective ways to get information in real life. He recently agreed to speak with cadets at the West Point military academy to teach them that torture is wrong.
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24 is Fox,afterall.
February 28th, 2007 at 11:55 amThat's completely ridiculous!
February 28th, 2007 at 12:00 pmInstead of banning torture on Fox's 24, let's just ban Fox.
February 28th, 2007 at 12:01 pmThe fact that, in the year 2007, it is still necessary to teach adults that torture is wrong, as if they'd never even considered it before, is the saddest thing I've ever heard.
February 28th, 2007 at 12:02 pm[We adopted mock] executions and mock electrocution, stress positions, isolation, hypothermia. Threatening to execute family members or rape detainees’ wives and things like that.
What have we become?
February 28th, 2007 at 12:03 pmMaybe 24 could do an episode in which Bauer captures Laura Ingraham... .
February 28th, 2007 at 12:03 pmOne could easily point out that using such shows for factual information (i don't care if its liberal or conservative) is a bit flawed. It is flawed because these programs are constructed for entertainment purposes only and to gain ratings.
However, the fact that the troops are turning to this program for examples does not make them wrong. I think it is emblematic of the larger problem of lack of training and vague orders. Maybe it should be made clear that those without training are not permitted to interrogate a suspect. But since that is breaking down, I'm guessing our military being overstretched has led to a lack of interrogators, then maybe all our soldiers should be given interrogation training. Would definitely help, I think, when there is a breakdown in command.
February 28th, 2007 at 12:07 pmCan someone please torture Laura Ingraham????
February 28th, 2007 at 12:07 pmWhere to start!
1. Where's the leadership and chain of command?
February 28th, 2007 at 12:08 pm2. Maybe if the Commander In Chief would speak out against torture.
3. Why doesn't the military ban FOX? (The show '24' would not be
enough since the FOX pundits are gung-ho torturers)
4. Just because many people watch the show, doesn't mean they approve
of the torture methods. OK, maybe the 30% who watch do.
Remember how important it is to export our democracy to the world....Ha...ha...ha......
let's not forget the new Republican mindset....It is ok for the US federal government to listen to your phone calls, read your mail, check your library records and arrest you without due process because of you are doing nothing wrong then there is nothing to worry about.
We are destroying the very thing we claim is most important.
-GSD
February 28th, 2007 at 12:08 pmMaybe 24 could do an episode in which Bauer captures Laura Ingraham… .
Comment by NoOneYouKnow
Make it a reality show, live, with real torture techniques, and include the other torture-supporting dirt bags (Rush, Hannity, O'Reilly, Coulter, Savage, et. al.).
February 28th, 2007 at 12:11 pmAh, so THAT's the problem. It's not that representatives of the United States of America have been engaging in torture, murder, and the mistreatment of human beings (criminal activities under both Federal and International law), it's just that our poor wittle soldiers are being confused by bad television programming.
Yeah, that's it. The responsibility for these crimes lay not with the people performing the acts or the ones ordering them, instead it's all the tv networks' fault. Accountability American style...
February 28th, 2007 at 12:11 pmIs the show really the problem? If you're watching there seems to be a quasi-conservative cabal trying to assasinate a liberal president, are the conservatives proud of that as well?
Either way, the problem isn't the show, it's that people don't understand the difference between fictional situations dreamed up by a team of writers and reality. Instead of bashing Fox and 24, what about addressing the obviously pressing need to remind people about the "willing suspension of disbelief" and that reality doesn't work like a tv show whether it's 24, Friends, or any other show on television. Take on the pundits who insist on blurring the distinctions as well.
February 28th, 2007 at 12:12 pmKeiffer needs to make a stand. He is now one of the co-producers of the show. He has a say in what goes into the show and what does not.
February 28th, 2007 at 12:13 pm...
...to teach them that torture is wrong. ...
my god...
February 28th, 2007 at 12:13 pm…to teach them that torture is wrong. …
my god…
Comment by katy
You know what I mean, katy! This whole thing is frickin' insane!
February 28th, 2007 at 12:14 pm"Kiefer Sutherland, the actor who stars as Jack Bauer, has also said that the torture techniques employed in the show are not effective ways to get information in real life. He recently agreed to speak with cadets at the West Point military academy to teach them that torture is wrong."
Good Lord, what a cop-out!
If that pansy wants to impress me, let him walk out on the show and tell producer Joel Surnow to go piss up a rope.
February 28th, 2007 at 12:17 pmThe moonbats again come to the defense of the Islamists, shocking!
February 28th, 2007 at 12:17 pmI find it very disturbing that our military has such little training that they must turn to "24" for pointers. We should let our reps know that we don't support the military in its use of torture methods, nor do we support this war. Instead we should concentrate our efforts on a better foreign policy which would include fulfilling the 2000 Millennium Goals--the first of which is to eliminate global poverty. According to the Borgen Project, it will only cost $19 billion to feed the world for a year. Let's make it happen!
February 28th, 2007 at 12:18 pmI have said it many times before... life imitates art and in the case of American society, it has prove fatal again and again and again.
First, the administration are a bunch of adolescent frat boys who spent their formative years playing Risk and who believe the world is as maleable as the plastic pieces they used to play with. Their sociaopathy doesn't contribute "compassion" or any other concern about the real life human beings they are destroying.
COPS: You can't outrun the radio....an old axiom that renders ALL high speed car chases IRRELEVANT and UNNECESSARY. Why do the cops do them though, despite the GRAVE DANGER they pose to people? Because they saw it on T.V. Period.
Now this.
Unfortunately, Americans are too stupid to know the difference between fantasy and reality. This is just further proof of it.
We are all in serious trouble people.
February 28th, 2007 at 12:18 pmDidn't we already go through all this with Itchy & Scratchy?
February 28th, 2007 at 12:20 pmThat the troops are turning to TV shosw like 24 is a symptom of a much larger problem. By putting pressure on Fox to change the show, Gen Finnegan, the Pentagon, Human Rights First, etc. are tackling the symptoms, not the root cause of the problem.
Tony Lagouranis' statement is very telling: Interrogators didn’t have guidance from the military on what to do because we were told that the Geneva Conventions didn’t apply any more. So our training was obsolete, and we were encouraged to be creative.
They were told Geneva "didn't apply anymore", and were "encouraged to be creative". There, in a nutshell, you have the description of what the actual problem is: A morally bankrupt political leadership bent on ignoring the rule of law, and international treaties.
That is the issue that should be tackled, spoken about. As much as I dislike the show, it is only the most visible manifestation of a problem that runs deeper. It also runs higher in the chain of command. This smells like a setup to scapegoat the next "few bad apples".
February 28th, 2007 at 12:20 pmThis is just another glaring example of why conservatives can't govern. They want to base their policies on television shows.
February 28th, 2007 at 12:21 pmMaybe the softheaded left is influenced by TV (see Krazy Keith Olbermann) but no one else is. This ex-military guy is just trying to get some pub and speaking fees from the looney left.
February 28th, 2007 at 12:22 pmPatrick1,
Are you saying Gen. Finnegan is a "moonbat" coming to "the defense of the Islamists"? Did you read before posting?
February 28th, 2007 at 12:22 pm#20 getaclue
What? frat boys play risk? c'mon, if their policy's and (lack) of overall military strategy is based on their risk playing ability, then any of us here could defeat them in a game of risk.
February 28th, 2007 at 12:27 pmSometimes I think the TP staff are actually conservatives, and they just post things like this to watch all of you get your panties twisted in knots.
February 28th, 2007 at 12:27 pmI'm saying Gen. Finnegan is being a PC idiot who is fawning the leftist line. It is nonsense. 24 has no effect on anyone especially our soldiers in the field. This is just the left getting another chance to America bash and coming to defense of those poor brothers in arms the Islamo Fascists.
February 28th, 2007 at 12:29 pmIf someone has made it to West Point and still needs an actor to come and tell them that torture is wrong then we have a bunch of morons studying to be "officers and gentlemen". God grief, what kind of a human being needs someone to tell them that torture is wrong? Oh wait, a Republican does.
February 28th, 2007 at 12:32 pm#20 - "I have said it many times before… life imitates art and in the case of American society, it has prove fatal again and again and again."
Whip out your history books - I think torture has been around alot longer than "art". I am adamantly against physical torture due to the poor quality of information it supplies. I have no problem with our enemies undergoing sleep-deprivation, obnoxious, blaring music, etc.
But you're right, "life does imitate art" - unfortunately, the inconsistent left forget about "art/gangstas, "art"/promiscuity, "art"/drug use.....
February 28th, 2007 at 12:33 pmTV made me torture those guys and now I am going to listen to Judas Priest and kill myself.
Just like all the reasons we are over there, weak and b.s.
February 28th, 2007 at 12:33 pmI'm sure you can post the techniques that are being on the Islamists that have also been used on 24.
February 28th, 2007 at 12:33 pmJack Bauer from 24 telling or troops not to torture is the same as Vince Neil from Motley Crue telling teenagers not to drink and drive.
Oh yeah and Patrick1 is a dumb fu*k. Don't address him.
February 28th, 2007 at 12:33 pmBrigadier General Patrick Finnegan recently told the 24 producers that he was concerned that the show’s promotion of illegal torture “was having a damaging effect on young troops.â€
I would think they should be more concerned with the promotion of illegal torture by the higher-ups in the DoD and this administration. In my opinion that has a more damaging effect on young troops that anything else could....but I'm just a lowly civilian not a Brigadier General. T.V. bad......Vice President and DoD directives for illegal toture......no comment. What a joke.
February 28th, 2007 at 12:35 pmAdmins, can we get another troll here?
Patrick1 appears to be broken.
February 28th, 2007 at 12:36 pmSometimes I think you are a real conservative that wants to debate things, then I find out that you are just a troll with your panties in a wad.
Which do you want to be Dale? Make up your mind. Serious debate or troll bullsh!t.
February 28th, 2007 at 12:36 pmWow, mighty aphrodite says torture is bad, but then follows up with this incomprehensible mess:
What the hell does that mean?
February 28th, 2007 at 12:38 pmAre you saying Gen. Finnegan is a “moonbat†coming to “the defense of the Islamists� Did you read before posting?
Comment by Gregor Samsa
It doesn't matter if he read it or not. Facts mean nothing to that type. Only the attention they recieve for their non-sensical bs matters.
February 28th, 2007 at 12:41 pmDale & Patrick,
Torture and crimes against humanity are not partisan issues, they are a national disgrace and a dishonor to all Americans and the entire United States of America.
You want to point fingers at this party or that because you are too cowardly and ignorant to address the issue head on. That's your choice, but fortunately that is not the choice of Americans as a whole.
February 28th, 2007 at 12:43 pm#29 - "God grief, what kind of a human being needs someone to tell them that torture is wrong? Oh wait, a Republican does."
GOD grief, what kind of human needs to be told radical Islamists want us dead? Oh wait....a Progressive does.
February 28th, 2007 at 12:43 pmI would like to think TP is just making a stretch here, right?
February 28th, 2007 at 12:44 pmThey were told Geneva “didn’t apply anymoreâ€, and were “encouraged to be creativeâ€. There, in a nutshell, you have the description of what the actual problem is: A morally bankrupt political leadership bent on ignoring the rule of law, and international treaties.
That is the issue that should be tackled, spoken about.
Comment by Gregor Samsa
Nail. Head. Impact.
February 28th, 2007 at 12:45 pmComment by Spudge_Boy — February 28, 2007 @ 12:33 pm
Or like Jenna Jameson lecturing highschoolers on the benefits of abstinence.
February 28th, 2007 at 12:45 pmI read it. Finnegan is part of the DC culture that requires that even military men who know better have to look the PC fool from time to time. He probably drew the short straw. The "ex-military" guy is just looking for moonbat speaking fees, tinfoil hat included.
February 28th, 2007 at 12:45 pm#36, I'm a real conservative that wants to debate things. This thread, however, is ridiculous. What did you want to debate from this thread? So far, all I've seen is a bunch of hysterical rants about how evil 24, Fox, Laura Ingraham, and others are.
February 28th, 2007 at 12:49 pmI agree. This is what foreign nations see us as... Mindless couch potato cowboys and now we got legislators and other people in power basically saying that a popularity of a TV show should direct our national attitude on a war crime!!!!
This is insane.
February 28th, 2007 at 12:50 pmOf course everyone is against torture, though I haven't seen or heard of anyone convicted of torture, I know Dick Turban called them Nazis but there was no torture found.
The problem with the moonbats is they always assume the worst in the United States and always the best in our enemies.
February 28th, 2007 at 12:51 pmThose who agree with the position are not in a place to offer an argument. That's your job. What do you disagree with? Do you think torture should be legal and endorsed by the government?
February 28th, 2007 at 12:52 pmI would like to congratulate progressives for learning something in the last 30 years. After Viet Nam, your brain trust realized the progressive "welcome home" (spitting and shouting) extended to Viet Nam Vets did not go over too well with the war-weary American public. So a quaint, new mantra was developed: "We hate the war, but support the troops."
Of course, this is oxymoronic, but such nuances never deter Progressives.
A brilliant military mom made an interesting comment on the radio yesterday. She thought progressives should fly peace banners on their homes. That way, returning vets would know who did not want military assistance here at home should it ever get to that point.
February 28th, 2007 at 12:53 pmI find it utterly hilarious that the network mouthpiece for the party of "family values" puts out the only shows I have to actively prevent my 2 children from watching.
Family Guy, American Dad, War at home.
All the other shows like SouthPark are on too late and the kids are in bed.
Fox Sux!
February 28th, 2007 at 12:53 pmI got my truck nutz hanging down, and I break for torture.
February 28th, 2007 at 12:54 pmSo far, all I’ve seen is a bunch of hysterical rants about how evil 24, [...]
Comment by Dale — February 28, 2007 @ 12:49 pm
Then you haven't actually read; there are several posts -mine among them- that state very clearly 24 is not the problem, but a symptom, and that there is a lack of actual leadership to prevent torture from happening.
They were not hysterical by any means.
February 28th, 2007 at 12:56 pmReally? Everyone?
Rush Limbaugh: http://mediamatters.org/items/200405050003
Anne Coulter: "I think the government should be spying on all Arabs, engaging in torture as a televised spectator sport, dropping daisy cutters wantonly throughout the Middle East and sending liberals to Guantanamo."
February 28th, 2007 at 12:57 pmOk so Venus sez if we don't want an uneccesary war, we better be prepared to be on our own if ever there is an attack here at my house.
That is assinine.
February 28th, 2007 at 12:58 pmYou could give your two cents on whether you think torture is good or bad when trying to get information. Even our troll mighty aphrodite (aka valiant venus) has chimed in that she thinks torture is bad, but using loud music, etc. is okay. She is a troll and has commented on the topic, but then followed up with trolling. Patrick1 on the other hand is staright up troll and doesn't care about debate. The fact that he keeps saying moonbat (not sure what that is) when talking about progressives shows that.
February 28th, 2007 at 12:59 pm#48,
I have a big banner on my home, held up with the pins from my ribbons from my military service, that states clearly my opposition to the misuse of our military resources for criminal activities in Iraq.
So, what was "brilliant mom's" point? What's your point? That now someone is going to come by and try to teach me a lesson? Perhaps someone with “SS†on their collar? That is the world you and "brilliant mom" seek? I'd suggest you have someone explain history to you. That approach has been tried and failed, as oppression always does.
February 28th, 2007 at 1:02 pm#46 - "The problem with the moonbats is they always assume the worst in the United States and always the best in our enemies."
Patrick, you're right on the mark. The reason radical leftists Americans cannot be considered patriots is their unbridled hatred for their country. Patriotism is defined as a "love of country".
Most of us disagree with various public policies from time-to-time - and there is much to be debated. But radicals consistently defend our enemies while continuously giving those enemies the benefit of the doubt, despise our foundation and heritage, despise our institutions, and seek to undermine our sovereignty. Sadly, many would welcome a world of the UN, by the UN and for the UN.
February 28th, 2007 at 1:02 pmMmmm... I love the smell of myths in the morning. Smells like... hypocracy.
February 28th, 2007 at 1:02 pmValiant, you ignorant slut.. Don't worry the only troops at home incase of an emergency will be the Vets, and I don't think they'll help you "Support our Troops bumper sticker wearing fools" come any kind of national emergency.
PS close your legs, that yeast thing... ewwww it's getting nasty, I think we found a WMD.
February 28th, 2007 at 1:03 pmTorture, brought to you by the "good Christians" party with "family values". Would Jesus support torture?
February 28th, 2007 at 1:04 pmHere mighty aphrodite, I fixed your made up story.
February 28th, 2007 at 1:05 pm
A brilliant military mom made an interesting comment on the radio yesterday. She thought progressives should fly peace banners on their homes. That way, returning vets would know who did not want military assistance here at home should it ever get to that point.
Comment by valiant venus
As many have said here, those who so enthusiastically support the invasion should grab a gun and go help with it.
I'll even buy your gun.
February 28th, 2007 at 1:05 pm#53 - No, I just think the military would be put to better use than defending those who are enemy sympathizers. But you could psychologically "torture" radical Islamists with "sensitivity training".
February 28th, 2007 at 1:07 pmApparently Bush and his cabal would be in those many. Don't you know mighty aphrodite that your fearful leader is using the UN as the excuse for why we invaded Iraq?
Stop attacking your leader, you aiding the enemy. Moonbat.
February 28th, 2007 at 1:09 pmYes, actually. If he was the one being tortured so that others would no longer torture innocents on the way to finding criminals.
February 28th, 2007 at 1:09 pmNone of this surprises me. Torture has been used by right-wing Republikkklans not only as a means of interrogation but also as a means for recruitment into their "religion". I wonder if the "writers" of 24 base much of their torture techniques and information from the pages of Faux - sorry - Fox News reports as well.
February 28th, 2007 at 1:11 pmSo a quaint, new mantra was developed: “We hate the war, but support the troops.â€
Of course, this is oxymoronic, but such nuances never deter Progressives.
Comment by valiant venus — February 28, 2007 @ 12:53 pm
No Mighty Aphrodite, the oxymoronic statement is an 'intellectual conservative that isn't a hypocrite'. Only a st*pid c*nt would take their talking points from Ann Coulter without checking the stances of their own party. Tell me Anorexia girl, is Tom Delay a 'Progressive', or are you just a st*pid c*nt caught with your pants down again?
"You can support the troops but not the president"
February 28th, 2007 at 1:12 pm-Representative Tom Delay (R-TX)
#57 - ".....and I don’t think they’ll help you “Support our Troops bumper sticker wearing fools†come any kind of national emergency."
That's the great thing about the 2nd Amendment - certain people are capable of defending themselves, thus freeing the military for institutional defense. I find it's folks from your side of the divide who always seem so helpless.
February 28th, 2007 at 1:13 pmYou can disagree with the policy, you can vote, protest, wear your tinfoil hat, but that is a lot different than cheering on the Islamists as they currently are doing with this silly '24' stuff.
February 28th, 2007 at 1:13 pmBut you could psychologically “torture†radical Islamists with “sensitivity trainingâ€. Comment by valiant venus — February 28, 2007 @ 1:07 pm
That's torture for you? And that doesn't clue you in that maybe you're a psycho b*tch? Yet another example of why intellectual conservative is the 'oxymoronic statement'.
February 28th, 2007 at 1:15 pm#62 - Cory - Actually, some of the the most disgustingly "inventive" torturers throughout history have been pagans and atheists. Aren't you late for class, or something? I think your "Womyn's Studies 101' class is starting in a few munutes.
February 28th, 2007 at 1:16 pmValiant,
No we're going to hire you to stand over them in a dress, while your skanky yeast infection drips all over them burning their skin like a corrosive acid.
February 28th, 2007 at 1:17 pmYee haw! Nothing like the good ol' days of lynch mobs and possies, huh? Who needs the police when you got yerself a gun!
Exactly the reason why Europe is (sadly) far ahead of us as far as civility goes.
February 28th, 2007 at 1:18 pmHow low the United States has sunk under Republican rule. It used to be that the U.S. was the beacon of human rights. Now the U.S. is the violator of human rights. At last, I can understand why conservatives long for "the good old days".
February 28th, 2007 at 1:19 pmVV - the Crusades were done by Christians, not Atheists. Sorry.
February 28th, 2007 at 1:19 pm#62 - Cory - Actually, some of the the most disgustingly “inventive†torturers throughout history have been pagans and atheists. Comment by valiant venus — February 28, 2007 @ 1:16 pm
Athiesm is a modern concept. Pagans are 'religious' people, and were filled with zealous c*nts just like you and your Toranimal/Koranimal friends!
Aren’t you late for class, or something? I think your “Womyn’s Studies 101′ class is starting in a few munutes. Comment by valiant venus — February 28, 2007 @ 1:16 pm
You hate being a Womyn so badly Anorexia girl? That explains your sh*tty body image, and eating disorder. You know it's genetic, so you can play victim if you like - as a good CON, st*pid c*nt.
February 28th, 2007 at 1:19 pmFirst, the bit about the General telling 24's producers about the effect on our troops... please, I find it difficult in the extreme to think that any troop is going to torture an AQ terrorist just because they saw it on 24.
The fact that Keifer Sutherland is going to lecture West Point? Laughable... he's a friggin' actor, I don't care what shows/movies he's been in, he's an actor. His idea of hardship is not having a latte' sitting in his trailer when he's done shooting for the day.
Torture? If you mean pulling out fingernails, etc, then no. If you mean something like sensory deprivation, etc, then only under narrowly defined circumstances. I *do* agree that our most of military was probably not adequately trained in proper interrogation techniques. However, to blame it on Bush is ridiculous; NOBODY would've expected our military to be in that kind of position.
February 28th, 2007 at 1:20 pmWe should torture the Islamists the way we torture Algore into using all that electricity at his mansion. Drive them to McDonalds in an SUV full of cigarettes. Do that to a moonbat and they will tell you anything you want to know.
February 28th, 2007 at 1:20 pmThat’s the great thing about the 2nd Amendment - certain people are capable of defending themselves, thus freeing the military for institutional defense. I find it’s folks from your side of the divide who always seem so helpless. Comment by valiant venus — February 28, 2007 @ 1:13 pm
Yeah, that's what Rudolph, McVeigh and the rest of you Toranimal/Evanimals thought. That a gun meant you had the 'right' to defend the nation with your terrorism. They were just as big of a st*pid c*nt as you are.
February 28th, 2007 at 1:21 pmAh, the beauty of the 1st ammendment... giving even someone like Cory the ability to spout nonsense.
Cites please, Cory. Or didn't you learn how to cite references at Columbia?
February 28th, 2007 at 1:22 pmValiant,
Oh don't worry, I've got guns, and the knowledge to use them. It was actually you right wing fascist Nazi's who convinced me to buy a few.
Don't worry about me come the next disaster. It's you duct tape, and plastic fools who need help.
February 28th, 2007 at 1:22 pmFirst, the bit about the General telling 24’s producers about the effect on our troops… please, I find it difficult in the extreme to think that any troop is going to torture an AQ terrorist just because they saw it on 24. Comment by Dale — February 28, 2007 @ 1:20 pm
Yet the military doesn't think this is extreme. Just look at the st*pidest c*nt on the block (valiant venus) that cherishes a little torture. She thinks 24 is real, and that her vile psychosis and attachment to violent Toranimal behavior is normal!
You're a fool Dale.
February 28th, 2007 at 1:23 pmRog - Thanks for proving the dismal level of progressive conversation! (Your mother is so proud - Such a mind!)
February 28th, 2007 at 1:23 pmUh... do I need to dig out all of the news articles about the riots, car-burnings, etc in France? CIVILITY?
February 28th, 2007 at 1:23 pmDo that to a moonbat and they will tell you anything you want to know. Comment by Patrick1 — February 28, 2007 @ 1:20 pm
Patrick, just another right wingnut that stop taking his meds... Sad st*pid fcuker.
February 28th, 2007 at 1:23 pmRog - Thanks for proving the dismal level of progressive conversation! (Your mother is so proud - Such a mind!) Comment by valiant venus — February 28, 2007 @ 1:23 pm
How do you know the mind of another 'Counselor', you just attributed Tom Delay's values as progressive. That makes you a st*pid c*nt that doesn't even know her own Anorexic mind! You're a sick little c*nt aren't you squishy brains?
February 28th, 2007 at 1:25 pmVV, quit already, you're torturing us now!
February 28th, 2007 at 1:25 pmHey, you're crossing the line there... he's my favorite reindeer, leave him outta this!
February 28th, 2007 at 1:25 pmAh, the beauty of the 1st ammendment… giving even someone like Cory the ability to spout nonsense.Cites please, Cory. Or didn’t you learn how to cite references at Columbia? Comment by Dale — February 28, 2007 @ 1:22 pm
You are exhibit A dum bass, and valiant venus and patrick1 are exhibit B and C. You're not the brightest bulb in that eco-unfriendly house are you putz?
February 28th, 2007 at 1:26 pmHey, you’re crossing the line there… he’s my favorite reindeer, leave him outta this! Comment by Dale — February 28, 2007 @ 1:25 pm
There's a reason CONs are never funny with their own material. Get a writer, or stick to your 24 torture routine - dum bass.
February 28th, 2007 at 1:27 pm#71 - "VV - the Crusades were done by Christians, not Atheists. Sorry."
Thanks for demonstrating the narrow approach of public education. Now go back and look up, ancient Egyptians, Romans, Ghenghis Khan, indigenous peoples, Stalin, Mao, Fidel, etc.
Maybe you'll learn something - some inventors of disgusting torture were not only Christian Crusaders - BUT you knew that, right? Thanks for playing.
February 28th, 2007 at 1:29 pmActually, some of the the most disgustingly “inventive†torturers throughout history have been pagans and atheists.
Comment by valiant venus
Links, please.
And I agree, torture should be used. Thats what bring OBL to justice... err...I mean, after Abu Ghraib a lot of insurgents surrendered ... err, well, after Gitmo, Al-Qaeda terrorists left US alone ... errr, no, after the banning of habeas corpus, the anti-terror policy has been really effective...errr, no, well, I just feel good torturing some brownies. /stupid and sarcastic
February 28th, 2007 at 1:32 pmThe breif history of torture also seems to involve religious zealots. Just sayin'
February 28th, 2007 at 1:32 pmFidel
Comment by valiant venus
Can I see how many millions of people killed Castro? As in comparison of the inquisition, or GW Bush as Texas governor?
February 28th, 2007 at 1:33 pmUh… do I need to dig out all of the news articles about the riots, car-burnings, etc in France? CIVILITY?
Comment by Dale
Or the frequent beatings of polic officers on black people... no, wait, I have a better one: How about a 100 million people supporting an illegal occupation? Yeah, civility.
February 28th, 2007 at 1:36 pm#69 - "Exactly the reason why Europe is (sadly) far ahead of us as far as civility goes."
Oh, I've noticed the increased "civility" in Europe. Their "civility" and Balkanizing promotion of "cultural diversity" will be the suicide of Europe. The increase in anti-Semitism has been in direct proportion to the more vocal European collaborators. Speaking of civility, have you been to Londonistan lately?
February 28th, 2007 at 1:36 pm24 IS FICTION
I think more intersting is the name calling that it appears the more liberal bloggers resort to all the time. You are very clever when you use asteriks to replace characters or misspell obscene words. Pay attention to rule #4:
http://thinkprogress.org/terms
Although I suspect that this is the height of liberal rhetoric.
February 28th, 2007 at 1:40 pmValiant,
Hey we can play your games too.. Never show weakness, attack, project.. Only when it comes down to it you all talk the talk, but none of you ever walk the walk.. You all are so proud of this war, but only willing to support it by buying made in china "Support the Troops" bumper stickers.
You know they raised the age of eligibility to 43! And if you have any skills other than bring a bitch, I bet they would accept you for recruitment.
Put your money where your mouth is, or STFU.. Yah thought so!
February 28th, 2007 at 1:40 pmThe reason radical leftists Americans cannot be considered patriots is their unbridled hatred for their country. Patriotism is defined as a “love of countryâ€.
Comment by valiant venus
This despicable assault on those who disagree with this war, this President, and the neocons is getting increasingly irritating to me. You and those who repeat this garbage are dishonest, partisan hacks who go for character assassination over policy debate.
I've told you this before, mighty valiant venus aphrodite, that I love my country as I love my child and I have both the right and the obligation to criticize either one when the path they take is against my moral values. That is true love. And don't give us anymore of your self-righteous, morally-superior tripe because the lying history you have given here (fake married 40 some year old attorney with a military background) you have neither credibility nor moral standing. If you want to debate issues or even belittle the political philosophy I have, fine. But, if you attack my patriotism or my spirituality any further be ready for a counter-attack and I am not likely to be remotely nice about it from here on.
February 28th, 2007 at 1:41 pmThanks for demonstrating the narrow approach of public education. Now go back and look up, ancient Egyptians, Romans, Ghenghis Khan, indigenous peoples, Stalin, Mao, Fidel, etc. Comment by valiant venus — February 28, 2007 @ 1:29 pm
Romans, you mean like the Christians that required all pagans to convert to Christianity, otherwise die - those Romans?
Maybe you’ll learn something - some inventors of disgusting torture were not only Christian Crusaders - BUT you knew that, right? Thanks for playing. Comment by valiant venus — February 28, 2007 @ 1:29 pm
Nope, there were lots of people that 'used' to torture, yet in this blog, only the Toranimals/Evanimals are the ones still calling for it. That makes you the Barbarian - st*pid c*nt.
February 28th, 2007 at 1:42 pmHonestly, I can see it happening, but do understand your hesitation. However, if the General worries about it, I think further investigation is warranted. Either way, pundits have been pointing to 24 for a while now saying that the show being popular means that torture should be okay. You MUST agree that is absolutely insane.
Yea, I agree. When I saw that I immediately thought of Team America: World Police. However, the kids get to meet a movie star, so what's the harm in that?
I find sensory deprivation (and relaly any other psychological torture) to be as offensive and wrong as any physical torture, so I disagree with you there 100%.
I blame Bush because he is Commander-in-Chief and remember the order to torture was given because they never ONCE denounced it, constantly went on TV and never would even DEFINE what torture was or how we would use it if we "needed" it, told the world they thought the Geneva Convention was obsolete (that one still makes me ill), and for all we know (more investigation is needed) they outright gave orders with the specific gory details!
February 28th, 2007 at 1:44 pmComment by Ti Molo — February 28, 2007 @ 12:33 pm
Thank you for saying that. To paraphrase an old bumper sticker:"TV causes torture like flies cause garbage."
February 28th, 2007 at 1:44 pm#92, nice try, but I tried that already, and promptly got shouted down... for those who actually try to talk reasonably with me I'll debate them all day (Zooey, Spudge_Boy sometimes), for those who just yell and scream, I pretty much ignore them (Big Papa, some others).
February 28th, 2007 at 1:47 pmDo I need to cite the riots in the States during the 90s?
Jeez, if you are going to cite single instances to selectively prove your case, then just stop posting now.
February 28th, 2007 at 1:47 pmlibertarian,
Why should I follow rules, no one else including our government does.
February 28th, 2007 at 1:47 pmMaybe we're sick of idiots like "you"? coming here day in and day out with the same old tired out talking points, lies, half truths. We've tried to be civil, but maybe the only thing "the party of family values" respects is violence, in person, or language..
You know they raised the age of eligibility to 43! And if you have any skills other than bring a bitch, I bet they would accept you for recruitment.
Put your money where your mouth is, or STFU.. Yah thought so!
Comment by RogerSux — February 28, 2007 @ 1:40 pm
Hey, RS, I am active duty Marine. I walk it and talk it. By your list of requirements above, I am the authority on the subject, not you.
My opinion, this a bunch of crap about nothing. It is a GOD D*MN TV SHOW.
February 28th, 2007 at 1:49 pmYour opinion and no facts. Thanks.
I have no desire to move to Europe, as I love my hometown here in the States, but I do admire their lack of a need to be cowboys when the going gets rough.
February 28th, 2007 at 1:49 pmThat's just silly... the inquisition killed approx 31,000, GW as governor (I'm assuming you mean the death penalty? I can't imagine it's more than a couple of dozen... Castro? estimates in 1999 put the number at about 120,000
February 28th, 2007 at 1:51 pmThe subject has changed to the failed state of Europe.
February 28th, 2007 at 1:53 pmAnd look where that's gotten them in the past. WWI, WWII; us 'cowboys' pulled their butts outta the fire both times. Their civility today would consist of Sieg Heil with a smile on their face.
February 28th, 2007 at 1:53 pmAnd to add onto my own post...
Another virtue of patriotism to me is the ability to see something work elsewhere and then apply it to one's own country (or locally) to help make it better... Instead of seeing what other countries are doing and just doing the opposite because We Know Best (TM).
February 28th, 2007 at 1:54 pm131 put to death... including the mentally retarded. Apparently, in 40 cases, the defense presented no evidence whatsoever, or only one witness. Amazing. Thanks, W. I wish I wouldn't have researched that now. It's making my stomach ill.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines/061100-01.htm
February 28th, 2007 at 1:57 pmEurope just calls the local sheriff, guess who?
February 28th, 2007 at 1:59 pmWhew.. That's so completely out of context (in time and in theory) and has points so impossible to prove it almost made my head spin!
Not to mention it completely misses my point.
February 28th, 2007 at 1:59 pmus ‘cowboys’ pulled their butts outta the fire both times.
Comment by Dale
Yeah, Zukhov was an american. Right.
Learn this, WWII was won by millions of people who stood against the Fascist regime (like the one you defend now). It was won by the russians after the Nazis commited all kinds of atrocities against them, russians got to Berlin first, then US and UK as scared as they were, threw troops all over Berlin so the soviets didnt take all for them. US won its war against Japan, in the Pacific, but everybody knows Russia beat the Nazis.
February 28th, 2007 at 2:02 pmThat’s just silly… the inquisition killed approx 31,000, GW as governor (I’m assuming you mean the death penalty? I can’t imagine it’s more than a couple of dozen… Castro? estimates in 1999 put the number at about 120,000
Comment by Dale
Links, again, please.
February 28th, 2007 at 2:03 pmwow, #109 and #110... so we didn't have anything to do with beating the Nazis? If *we* weren't attacking them on their Western Front, then they would've have more men/machines to use against the Russians. and vice versa.
#111, there's this site called Google... it's really great, you just put in a search term and it'll find links FOR you. It's really great... maybe they should've told you about it in high school!
February 28th, 2007 at 2:13 pm#111, show me links for 90... show me links for 110.
You're like a little kid that has to be shown everything... be a man for a change and find this info out for yourself!
February 28th, 2007 at 2:14 pmHacker Bob,
good get your ass back over their and die for your leader..
don't come here like because you're some stupid ass jar head you have some moral authority..
Go die now.. we need less idiots!!
February 28th, 2007 at 2:16 pm#112 & #113,
Being asked to support your "claims" is not an unreasonable request. Thou doth protest too much, methinks.
So you've been called out on your misrepresentations and exposed as being either ignorant or willfully deceitful. Be a man, for once, and learn from your mistakes instead of looking for a patsy to blame.
February 28th, 2007 at 2:20 pmQuestion to all the individuals who come here with the intent to harass:
Why are you frequenting a blog in which your "opinions" are antithetical to what this particular blog stands for (let's be honest here and admit this IS a left leaning news discussion blog)?
If you truly want to do something productive then go out and write your Senators and Congressmen/women about issues you feel are pertinent to today’s political climate. Broaden your news sources by actively researching politics beyond one particular third party news organization (i.e. Fox News). Obtaining news from varied sources such as the BBC, CNN, MCNBS, CNET – even Fox News – is crucial in forming factual and fully informed opinions. International awareness is vital as there is a world outside the United States and most people ignore the impact of foreign affairs and global importance. Frequenting blogs in search of harassing individuals who do not agree with your opinions while picking and choosing which comments to address and blithely ignoring the ones that are intelligently crafted and supported (the claim that "liberals" resort to foul language is erroneous as there are numerous examples of comments antithetical to your rhetoric that utilize appropriate language and grammar) is easy. Beyond reading and discussing news, I have volunteered in AIDS hospices and soup kitchens while living in New York City, I have donated much of my time and money in environmental awareness (I am shocked that most “conservatists†are not more conservative with the environment as it is no new fact that landfills, waste and e-waste are major current issues besides global climate change), I have worked in many social psychological research experiments as an I/O psychologist in training, I have worked with War Veterans in VA hospitals and as a gay man I have been the victim of hate crimes and have helped those who have been victims themselves. Ask yourself, besides trolling on blogs and harassing people online, what have you done with your life to make the world a better place?
Ignorance is bliss, challenging yourself and learning the truth are much harder (and paramount).
February 28th, 2007 at 2:21 pmRogerSux
Ease up on hacker bob - he's reasonable and respectful, therefore not a troll.
February 28th, 2007 at 2:22 pm#93 - "Put your money where your mouth is, or STFU.. Yah thought so!"
Comment by RogerSux
As "my friends" here at TP have already heard my bio - I'll not belabor the point - as for my military service, let's just say, "been there... done that".
"but none of you ever walk the walk.. You all are so proud of this war, but only willing to support it by buying made in china “Support the Troops†bumper stickers." More from Sux
You are so clueless about what anyone else does - but let me help. Your sweeping generalizations don't HELP your "argument".
February 28th, 2007 at 2:22 pmComment by RogerSux — February 28, 2007 @ 2:16 pm
Very astute of you. You say for one to have any authority on the topic they must be in a uniform and grab a rifle. When confronted by one that meets your standard, you tell the to go die and call them " some stupid ass jar head".
Which is it?
I do not like the current war any more than anyone else does. But get real. We are talking about a damn TV show. Maybe if the schools werent busy teaching about Gay Penguins, they could focus on teaching kids about history and the kids themselves would realize that torture is wrong.
But, you are welcome for your freedom of speach that has been brought to you by the US Armed Forces for 231 years.
BTW, what have YOU done for your country today other than sit behind a computer keyboard and bitch?
February 28th, 2007 at 2:24 pm#115, I do enough of 'supporting my claims' on here... for basic, easily found facts like how many people died under Castro, or how many were killed by the Inquisition, no, I'm not going to bother looking for that info. Find it yourself or ignore my post.
February 28th, 2007 at 2:26 pmComment by PatrioticLiberalChristian(PLC) — February 28, 2007 @ 2:22 pm
Thank you PLC.
The un-reasonable streak in me may be about to take over on someone.
February 28th, 2007 at 2:26 pmThen help. Instead of sitting behind your keyboard and insulting people on a blog which consists majorly of people who do not agree with your views, actively educate people rather than ponder quick jabs and insults that do not benefit any one.
February 28th, 2007 at 2:26 pm#114, I agree w/Hacker Bob on very little, but he's a Marine (former Marine? one of those)... whine and b*tch at someone else, why don't you.
February 28th, 2007 at 2:27 pmNice!
February 28th, 2007 at 2:28 pmPLC - Glad to know you are not a leftist who hates what this country stands for....and that you LOVE your country.....and you righteously criticize policies with which you disagree.....and should this country ever come under attack by enemies, you would be right there in the trenches......OK, maybe that was going a little too far.
February 28th, 2007 at 2:28 pmCory, some here are trolls, some aren't. But if you're that concerned about it, petition TP to require registration in order to post, then they can ban us 'trolls'.
I, for one, enjoy discussing things with reasonable people who hold differing opinions.
February 28th, 2007 at 2:29 pm#123... okay bob, I know... there's no such thing as a former Marine :-)
February 28th, 2007 at 2:32 pmhacker boob,
ohhhhh scared... threats from a jar headed..
maybe you right wingers should teach your children MORALITY, schools should not have to! Schools teaching about gay penguins is more about biology, its only you wackos who think it's teaching your kids to be "gay"..
February 28th, 2007 at 2:33 pm#118,
Are you introducing yourself to the kettle? Your comment about "sweeping generalizations" was priceless.
And, being a veteran myself, I am completely confident in saying that veterans do not view dissent as unpatriotic nor do they view opposition to a war as being treasonous. In fact, any real veteran will tell you that opposition and dissent are some of the core rights that they will give their life in defense of.
Political party affiliations do not matter to veterans nor do they factor into their judgments. To say or imply otherwise not only dishonors the speaker, but is slanderous to all veterans.
February 28th, 2007 at 2:33 pmYou’re like a little kid that has to be shown everything… be a man for a change and find this info out for yourself!
Comment by Dale
So, no links, right? I thought so. I have the info, I want you to look that for yourself.
Now, the definition of a man is not a person who looks info for you. Besides making degrading remarks about women (panties twisted in knots), you come up with the "be a man". Well, being a man is, among toher things standing for what you believe. I dont see you running to the recruiting office, just posting stupidity after stupidity here.
February 28th, 2007 at 2:34 pmBTW hacker bob what have i done for my country..
HAHA I have a govt job paid to blog all day long...
February 28th, 2007 at 2:34 pmDale, that is an excellent suggestion. Requiring registration would put much more weight in many comments and would most likely clean up some of the filth that is being thrown. Debate it paramount to growth and understanding, however much of what is referenced as "debate" is meaningless personal attacks and ego's, which translates into pissing contests between commentators instead of calm and intelligent discussions. Pride and anger are very powerful emotions and deadly sins, it would behoove many on ThinkProgress to read a comment, walk away from the computer for a few minutes, relax, breath, and then address any points that are needing to be addresses as mature, calm and intelligent adults. I strongly believe if more individuals did such that the debates here (and in general) would be much more in depth, beneficial to everyone and mature.
February 28th, 2007 at 2:35 pmCory I've been here a year.. they'll never do registrations.. they suck...
February 28th, 2007 at 2:39 pm#130, Juan, I'm 44 years old, the services will no longer take me. I was in the USAF in the 80's, *proudly* served my country. Don't like what I post? Don't read it, just skip right on by.
#132, you have some good points... regrettably, there will always be personal attacks and ego wars (and I'm guilty of it also).
February 28th, 2007 at 2:40 pmSo now a TV show is being blamed for a failed Bush policy. I guess Dubya's never had to take responsibility for anything in his life, why start now?
February 28th, 2007 at 2:40 pm(shakes head in dismay and disappointment). I am saddened that my comments were not taken to heart and that most commentators have continued to insult and attack each other. I realize that one person is not going to make an immediate difference, but I would hope that in the least some individuals would think twice before posting. Skimming through much of what has been written demonstrates a severe lacking in the original topic and more comments of a personal nature. I suppose I should not be surprised as psychology study after study has generally shown a tendency for people to use the anonymity of the Internet in negative ways, making comments to and about one another that normally would never be said in person. Imagine if everyone here were in a room with one another, having dinner and discussing these topics. How would you treat each other in all honesty (and I know I am opening myself up in asking such a question, but it is a very good question)?
February 28th, 2007 at 2:41 pm#136, quit pyschoanalyzing us! :-)
February 28th, 2007 at 2:44 pm#102 -"Your opinion and no facts. Thanks.
I have no desire to move to Europe, as I love my hometown here in the States, but I do admire their lack of a need to be cowboys when the going gets rough."
I didn't suggest you move (better reading comprehension might start with Hooked on Phonics?). For more facts on Londonistan, use "the Google" (using the phrase UK Islamic Terror") you'll get to broaden your perspective with:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk
http://www.thesun.co.uk
http://www.timesonline.co.uk
As a San Diegan, we don't take to kindly to people disparaging cowboys. A cowboy is someone to back you up - not sip latte with.
February 28th, 2007 at 2:47 pmmaybe you right wingers should teach your children MORALITY, schools should not have to! Schools teaching about gay penguins is more about biology, its only you wackos who think it’s teaching your kids to be “gayâ€..
Comment by RogerSux — February 28, 2007 @ 2:33 pm
I am about as far right as I am far left. Strike one.
Show me the genetic link for homosexuality. I coulds honestly care less if someone is gay, buy before you call it biological, show the biological link. Otherwise it is not teaching biology, it is teaching social acceptance (and morality). So I do not say it IS or IS NOT biological. I also have never in my life said it was teaching them to BE gay. Strike two.
Wanna' try one more?
February 28th, 2007 at 2:48 pmIn fact, any real veteran will tell you that opposition and dissent are some of the core rights that they will give their life in defense of.
Political party affiliations do not matter to veterans nor do they factor into their judgments. To say or imply otherwise not only dishonors the speaker, but is slanderous to all veterans.
Comment by Tuber — February 28, 2007 @ 2:33 pm
Thank you, well said.
February 28th, 2007 at 2:49 pmAs someone who grew up in London (my father was an Investment Banker with Bears Stearns and worked between NYC and London and I spent much of my childhood on Park Lane), those "news sources" are not exactly true English or London any thing. The Sun especially made me chuckle as that is purely a tabloid heavily influenced by American Pop Culture. The BBC would be a better source of English and International news, and even that is a stretch but good start.
February 28th, 2007 at 2:54 pm#110 - ..."but everybody knows Russia beat the Nazis."
Comment by Juan C
Yes, Comrade Juan, everybody also know the Nazi's never heard of General Patton either. Thank you, Comrade.
February 28th, 2007 at 2:54 pmThere ain't no friggin' cowboys in San Diego you whacko.
Go to Montana and meet a real cowboy.
February 28th, 2007 at 2:58 pm#116 - Dear Cory - Thank you for your moving autobiography. Most conservatives I know are extremely generous with their time AND money, working with worthwhile organmizations and making a positive difference. (I hate to snatch that halo from your head.)
You ask why we play in your sandbox. Think of our participation as a public service. Here is a sample of what you would get from TP without the loyal oppositin:
#1 - "I hate Chimpy Shrub!!"
#2 - "I HATE Darth Chainee MORE!!!"
#3 - "I hate conservatives!"
#4 - "Conservatives are SO selfish!!!"
#5 - "Conservatives push their "values" on everybody else!!"
#6 - "And if we don't like what conservatives say, we won't let them speak!!!"
We help progressives spend their angst. As a group, progs often cannot enjoy too much or they feel incredible guilty. The paradox - trying to rid yourself of the guilt that binds you to the wounds of others. We help your you develope creatively. Get the idea?
February 28th, 2007 at 3:06 pmSounds Like a good plan to me. If we were the society we are today back in 1940 we would all by speaking German. I do whatever works. When Sh'ria law is put into affect and all your holyer than thow dreams come true, the Muslem will be torturing all of the Liberals first since thats who and what they truly despise about the West. Although, the liberal agenda is helping the terrorists war efforts, thats all it is, a means to an end for them.
Next time you want to whine about torture, think about Vivisection that was done to WWII soldiers by the Japanese while your walking your Dog in your Birkenpukes with a 40 Ft. leash.
DN
February 28th, 2007 at 3:09 pmBob, as a psychologist in training at Columbia and as a gay man, I can understand your question regarding the predicament of "Nature v. Nurture". I can assure you however, that homosexuality is not a choice. Who would choose a life of possible frustration, rejection, apathy and hate crimes that most likely lead to self hate and loneliness in today's political climate?
As for the genetic possibility of homosexuality, many studies have been done and are currently in process that have demonstrated a possible genetic cause (homo- and hetero- sexual orientation). One particular study has shown homosexuality to be linked to the mother's immune system detecting the fetus as a forgeign entity resulting in a change in hormonal secretion during gestation and possibly altering the sexuality of the fetus. Interesting information. Regardless, the cause of sexuality is not as important as the acceptance of any one, gay, straight, black, white, male, female; acceptance is the paramount issue.
February 28th, 2007 at 3:10 pmWe help progressives spend their angst. As a group, progs often cannot enjoy too much or they feel incredible guilty. The paradox - trying to rid yourself of the guilt that binds you to the wounds of others. We help your you develope creatively. Get the idea? Comment by valiant venus — February 28, 2007 @ 3:06 pm
But you Toranimals/Evanganimals are an endless well of Angst twiggy! We enjoy very much pointing out what hypocrites and fools you are, and don't feel guilty for a second about it! But your guilt is so overwhelming you can't stop whining about it ZZzzzzz... You're such a boring, st*pid c*nt Aphrodite.
February 28th, 2007 at 3:12 pmStrike one debunked, you said schools should teach kids torture is wrong.. No schools should not. Parents should teach kids this before they ever get into school. come here acting like a righty, you're gonna get treated like one. TEACHING
Strike two, it's not my job to show you any "link". People have been gay since the beginning of time, it's only been the last 20 or so they have came out of the closet. And it's not the schools job to teach "Acceptance" either. thats the parents job. Who do children respect and follow? As for the penguins being gay, It's all about biology, and how MAN is not the only living creature to be gay.. and if the PARENTS taught acceptance, the child might accept that later on in life.
So strike three, you're out mental midget, semper fi beotch!
February 28th, 2007 at 3:12 pmComment by valiant venus — February 28, 2007 @ 3:06 pm
I'm sorry, but I do not understand what you meant in your post. Your sarcasm is dualy noted and unnecessary. I do not deserve to be treated with so much contempt as I have not addressed you in a similar manner. This is not my sandbox either. Essentially you have proven my point in regards to personal attacks, insults and a lack in addressing the original topic. I am sorry you are so angry with me, I apologize if you misinterpretted anything I may have written. It seems my viewpoints are not needed or wanted here, so I will move on. I wish all of you nothing but the best and I hope something positive comes out of all of this.
February 28th, 2007 at 3:15 pmDale is a fu*cking GOP BOT paid troll.
DO NOT ENGAGE. I REPEAT! DO NOT ENGAGE!
Don't give the GOP the satisfaction of disrupting the process of ideas!
February 28th, 2007 at 3:16 pmCory - I have heard more erudite conversation re: current events at the local latte purveyor.
While I appreciate the level of conversation you seek, (I just attended a lecture given by a political scientist from the University of San Diego, and the tone was most non-confrontational!) I am just a tad tired of the "intelligensia Chamberlain" group. I like dead terrorists and dead rattle snakes. (The irony: the young in both groups tends to be most deadly.)
February 28th, 2007 at 3:21 pmShow me the genetic link for homosexuality. I coulds honestly care less if someone is gay, buy before you call it biological, show the biological link. Otherwise it is not teaching biology, it is teaching social acceptance (and morality). So I do not say it IS or IS NOT biological. I also have never in my life said it was teaching them to BE gay. Strike two.
Wanna’ try one more?
Comment by hacker bob — February 28, 2007 @ 2:48 pm
Oh bob, you're not a complete idiot, stop acting like valiant venus! We all know she's completely r*t*rded, but you aren't!
Here are a couple of starter points for you Baghdad Bob.
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6612
February 28th, 2007 at 3:22 pmhttp://www.geocities.com/southbeach/boardwalk/7151/biobasis.html
"As a conservative, I can understand your question regarding the predicament of 'Nature v. Nurture'. I can assure you however, that conservatism is not a choice. Who would choose a life of possible frustration, rejection, apathy, and hate crimes that most likely lead to self hate and loneliness in today's liberal political climate?"
February 28th, 2007 at 3:22 pmComment by Cory — February 28, 2007 @ 3:10 pm
Cory, I appreciate your answer. I am glad youcan see the point from where I approach the issue. I come at it in complete ignorance. By that, I can honestly say I DO NOT KNOW. I do not know that homosexuality is biological, I don't know that it is not. But before someone can clain it to be true, it must first be proven to be true. That was my point.
I agree acceptance for all should be taught. But not at the price of Math, Language arts, Science, etc.
February 28th, 2007 at 3:23 pm#155, I haven't wanted to say this before Rachel, but... I love you. I really do. I love you with all my heart. Will you be mine? Please? You're such a sweet, loving person.
:-)
February 28th, 2007 at 3:24 pmlisten up semper fi mental midget bob,
ITS NOT SCHOOLS JOB TO TEACH ACCEPTANCE. GOT IT? IF YOU HAVEN'T TAUGHT YOUR CHILD ACCEPTANCE BY THE TIME THEIR OF SCHOOL AGE, THERE'S NO HOPE. BIGOTED FOR LIFE JUST LIKE YOU.
ITS NOT EVEN SCHOOLS JOBS TO TEACH SEX ED, BUT SINCE THE RIGHTIES IN THIS COUNTRY WOULDN'T, SOMEONE HAD TO. TOO MANY DAMN 13 YEAR OLDS KNOCKED UP BY THEIR UNCLE/BROTHER/FATHER.
TEACHING ACCEPTANCE HAS NO PLACE IN SCHOOLS.. ENFORCING IT YES, BUT PARENTS NEED TO TEACH FROM BIRTH OR YOU'RE PISSIN IN THE WIND.
GOT IT YET?
February 28th, 2007 at 3:30 pm#157, admittedly I only gave those articles a quick skim, but one of the problems that jumped out at me was that they presented evidence from one study for gay men, and another for gay women... it's seems to this layman that if there was a 'gay gene', it'd be the same for man or woman.
February 28th, 2007 at 3:31 pm#154 - "I do not deserve to be treated with so much contempt as I have not addressed you in a similar manner."
Have you always been such a crybaby? You asked why conservatives post at a site like TP - I answered you. I don't curse people, threaten people - but I do make fun of you. Face it - this is a target rich environment! Might I suggest heading over to the dermatologist and asking if you could have a dose of thicker skin.
"I am sorry you are so angry with me, I apologize if you misinterpretted anything I may have written."
I'm not angry with you - I don't know you. I have not minterpretted anything you said - I read fairly well. On second thought, maybe you should ask for a double dose of thicker skin. Good bye - and Good Luck.
February 28th, 2007 at 3:32 pmBarely two days have passed since Iraq's Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki hailed the country's new petroleum law as a "solid base for unity of all Iraqis" — a rare boast these days. President Bush has also trumpeted it as proof that Iraq has a viable future. But parliamentarians and Iraq's oil unions have already begun mobilizing against the draft legislation, arguing that it is a desperate attempt by al-Maliki's government to satisfy Western demands, which could damage Iraq's economic future and speed the country's ultimate disintegration.
The law is a dramatic break from the past. Foreign oil companies will have a stake in Iraq's vast oil wealth for the first time since 1972, when Iraq nationalized the oil industry. In theory, that could finally fix Iraq's shambolic oil sector, whose infrastructure has been crippled by decades of wars and sanctions. Production these days hovers around 2 million barrels a day, a big drop from Iraq's prewar peak of more than 3 million barrels a day.
February 28th, 2007 at 3:34 pmStrike one debunked, you said schools should teach kids torture is wrong.. No schools should not. Parents should teach kids this before they ever get into school.
Wrong, I said that schools should focus thing like history. Through history, we can learn that nothing good has come from torture. I agree that parents should teach that as well.
Strike two, it’s not my job to show you any “linkâ€.
So you can not prove your assertion. Point= ME
As for the penguins being gay, It’s all about biology, and how MAN is not the only living creature to be gay.. and if the PARENTS taught acceptance, the child might accept that later on in life.
Ok, are the Penguins living a "gay" lifestyle. Or are they to males that are in a close relationship living in a cohabitive state? I cohabitated with two men before I was married, but I am not gay. They were roommates. There is a difference.
February 28th, 2007 at 3:36 pmGOOD GOD!!!!! Truth IS STRANGER than fiction, and TASTIER, TOO!!!!!"
February 28th, 2007 at 3:37 pmI guess this means army doctors watch Peter Cushing(tm) as Dr. Frankenstein(tm) perform brain transplantation or operating techniques and Christopher Lee(tm) as Count Dracula(tm) perform blood transfusions and re-animating the dead--Oops I think THAT was Dr. Frankenstein's territory--Sorry, Drac!!!!!
I do not know that homosexuality is biological, I don’t know that it is not.
February 28th, 2007 at 3:38 pmComment by hacker bob — February 28, 2007 @ 3:23 pm
I believe homosexuality is biological, but I have no proof as, at least to my limited knowledge, they have not isolated a "homo" gene.
But, I do offer you this:
If you believe gayness is a choice, then at one point in your life, you approached the fork in the road of sexuality, debated, and went hetero.
I don't believe that.
At around 13 (and continues to this day), whenever I read about, thought about, even caught a glimpse on Showtime about a naked female, I got all tingly inside.
naked male? Blecchh, hell no!!! With the exception of me, all naked males are ass-ugly (ha!)
I didn't make that choice, it is how I am wired, and that's what leads me to believe that gays are wired differently.
(okay, I hope I didn't gross ya'll out too much)
Troubles for the Iraq Oil Deal
Read this and find the Truth about Iraq and bushes plans
February 28th, 2007 at 3:39 pmTroubles for the Iraq Oil Deal
Read this and find the Truth about Iraq and bushes plans ..........
February 28th, 2007 at 3:40 pmOk, are the Penguins living a “gay†lifestyle. Or are they to males that are in a close relationship living in a cohabitive state? I cohabitated with two men before I was married, but I am not gay. They were roommates. There is a difference.Comment by hacker bob — February 28, 2007 @ 3:36 pm
Is this the kind of cohabitation you had? If so, it could explain why you think being 'gay' is a choice - Baghdad bob!
Source NYTimes!
Hacker Bob, the latest victim of don't ask, don't tell ;)
February 28th, 2007 at 3:41 pmTEACHING ACCEPTANCE HAS NO PLACE IN SCHOOLS.. ENFORCING IT YES, BUT PARENTS NEED TO TEACH FROM BIRTH OR YOU’RE PISSIN IN THE WIND.Comment by RogerSux — February 28, 2007 @ 3:30 pm
Then the schools need to stop teaching it. BTW, do you have the same values that you parents did? I got a little education and realized how wrong my parents were about a lot of things. Like racism, sexism, and homophobia.
February 28th, 2007 at 3:45 pmIt seems like watching people torture other people is not only bad for the millitary, but bad for all human beings. Just what we need, more screwed up people trying to emulate some heinous behavior they've seen in the media. (Young Hannibal comes to mind).
February 28th, 2007 at 3:47 pmThen the schools need to stop teaching it. BTW, do you have the same values that you parents did? I got a little education and realized how wrong my parents were about a lot of things. Like racism, sexism, and homophobia. Comment by hacker bob — February 28, 2007 @ 3:45 pm
Where did you get that education? At home, or away at school? Shot down your own theory baghdad bob! See that's why CONs hate public schools - people like you learn to think for themselves! Private school religious brats like valiant venus grow up to be st*p*d c*nts with extremist religious values.
February 28th, 2007 at 3:48 pm#169, if you ask me, penguins *do* kinda swish when they walk :-)
February 28th, 2007 at 3:50 pmComment by ValiantVenusGrewFromUranus — February 28, 2007 @ 3:41 pm
Actually, Jason, you answered the question I asked. Thank you. Also thanks for the links. From the newscientist article:
Not conclusive, but compelling.
And no, that is not the relationship we had.
February 28th, 2007 at 3:50 pmWhere did you get that education? At home, or away at school?
Early education in the Peoples Republic of Washington. High School and College. in Texas and Oklahoma.
February 28th, 2007 at 3:53 pmComment by DRxJ — February 28, 2007 @ 3:38 pm
Never said it was a choice, just don't know that it is not.
February 28th, 2007 at 3:55 pmNot conclusive, but compelling.
And no, that is not the relationship we had.
Comment by hacker bob — February 28, 2007 @ 3:50 pm
It's pretty conclusive, because the 'behavioral' theories were shot down in the 1950s. That leaves genetics, and biology.
Never said it was a choice, just don’t know that it is not.
Comment by hacker bob — February 28, 2007 @ 3:55 pm
Actually we do know that it's not - that's why the APA removed it from the behavioral category in the 1970s. What we don't know are all of the facts that influence this - lack of choice.
Come into the 21st century, dinosaurs are only recent for Creationist myths!
February 28th, 2007 at 4:00 pmNever said it was a choice, just don’t know that it is not.
February 28th, 2007 at 4:00 pmComment by hacker bob — February 28, 2007 @ 3:55 pm
I would think that if one doesn't believe homosexuality is biological, then one must conclude that it is a choice.
but agreed, we just don't know....yet!
#169, if you ask me, penguins *do* kinda swish when they walk :-)
Comment by Dale — February 28, 2007 @ 3:50 pm
So do Conservatives! That's why we make fun of you!
February 28th, 2007 at 4:01 pmComment by ValiantVenusGrewFromUranus — February 28, 2007 @ 4:00 pm
Hey, give me something here. At least I am willing to say "I don't know". I am just looking for the proof hard and concrete. It may very well be (and probably is) biological. But as long as there are "mights" there are still "might nots".
Good thing Noah got them dionsaurs on that Ark.
February 28th, 2007 at 4:03 pmRogerSux
Thanks for proving my point.
I think the point is also illustrated in that this blog went from a discussion of a fictional 24 show and the inability of certain individuals to distinguish the difference between reality and fiction to a discussion on homosexuality.
February 28th, 2007 at 4:04 pmComment by DRxJ — February 28, 2007 @ 4:00 pm
Is that like "you are for _____ or you are against us"?
February 28th, 2007 at 4:05 pmIt's not about having "thick skin", it's about having respect, presenting an intelligent argument and displaying maturity and common sense. You, sir, have none of the above. I would not be surprised if you were a high school student who simply is reiterating the dictum and beliefs that have been shoved down your throat like a jagged little pill instead of thinking for oneself and displaying even the tiniest bit of original thought and active intelligence. You, my friend, need the wishes of good luck, as it appears you are going to need it more than anyone I have seen on here. GOOD LUCK.
February 28th, 2007 at 4:09 pmHey, give me something here. At least I am willing to say “I don’t knowâ€. Comment by hacker bob — February 28, 2007 @ 4:03 pm
Ignorance is no excuse. This debate was settled in the 1970s after decades of research. The APA could not find any evidence that homosexuality was behavioral in nature.
I am just looking for the proof hard and concrete. Comment by hacker bob — February 28, 2007 @ 4:03 pm
It's already proven not to be behavioral, that's why it was delisted as a behavioral disorder. There's already strong evidence of both biological and genetic causes of homosexuality - evidence that never existed for behavioral connections.
It may very well be (and probably is) biological. But as long as there are “mights†there are still “might notsâ€. Comment by hacker bob — February 28, 2007 @ 4:03 pm
If it isn't behavioral, it's biological. And the APA debunked the behavioral myth last century.
Good thing Noah got them dionsaurs on that Ark.
Comment by hacker bob — February 28, 2007 @ 4:03 pm
Yeah, it must have been interesting to see the dozens of 100+ foot species on that little boat, or even the thousands of animal species that aren't dinosaurs. I guess Noah must have had space/time bending technology from god - eh?
You religious CONs really need to catch a clue.
February 28th, 2007 at 4:10 pmI think the point is also illustrated in that this blog went from a discussion of a fictional 24 show and the inability of certain individuals to distinguish the difference between reality and fiction to a discussion on homosexuality. Comment by libertarian — February 28, 2007 @ 4:04 pm
Why, you CONs think homosexuality as a sexual orientation is fiction? How's this any different than the constant derailment you freaks do? And your side can't get enough face time whining about liberal media, liberal movies, liberal ideas all in Hollywood. Hypocrite!
February 28th, 2007 at 4:12 pmComment by ValiantVenusGrewFromUranus — February 28, 2007 @ 4:10 pm
The dinosaur thing was a joke, geesh...
February 28th, 2007 at 4:15 pmIt’s not about having “thick skinâ€, it’s about having respect, presenting an intelligent argument and displaying maturity and common sense. Comment by Tobias — February 28, 2007 @ 4:09 pm
If you haven't figured it out yet, valiant venus - is an Anorexic st*pid c*nt that wouldn't know maturity, intelligence or common sense if it would bite her Anorexic *ss.
Here's that b*tch's website.
http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=79943506
You, sir, have none of the above. I would not be surprised if you were a high school student who simply is reiterating the dictum and beliefs that have been shoved down your throat like a jagged little pill instead of thinking for oneself and displaying even the tiniest bit of original thought and active intelligence. Comment by Tobias — February 28, 2007 @ 4:09 pm
She's 23 and admires Ann Coulter - a high school intellect is being generous with her.
You, my friend, need the wishes of good luck, as it appears you are going to need it more than anyone I have seen on here. GOOD LUCK. Comment by Tobias — February 28, 2007 @ 4:09 pm
She needs good luck, a bunch of big macs, and more therapy than her job will afford her!
February 28th, 2007 at 4:17 pmYes, Comrade Juan, everybody also know the Nazi’s never heard of General Patton either. Thank you, Comrade.
Comment by valiant venus
Yeah, thats why Hitler thought that conquering Moscow would mean winning the war, cuz of General Patton. Yeah.
The actual word russian word is tovarish.
February 28th, 2007 at 4:17 pmYou know, learning other languages might teach you a little about the "evil doers-lurkers-whackos" that your government has told you to hate.
The dinosaur thing was a joke, geesh…
Comment by hacker bob — February 28, 2007 @ 4:15 pm
Actually I got that ;)
I was referring to the fellow cons at the core of the political party you vote for.
What's really sad is that the same anti-science bias that makes them believe in Dinosaurs, is the the same one that has prevented you from accepting the biological nature of homosexuality.
If homosexuality is a conscious choice, then you wouldn't have Gay Penguins - unless you're going to argue Penguins 'sin' and 'make conscious choices'. Both of which would throw a whole kink into the religious/carnivore moral path.
February 28th, 2007 at 4:21 pm#144 - hacker_bob,
February 28th, 2007 at 4:52 pmTry this link for a discussion of genetic links and homosexuality. I am definitely not gay, but I've come across many references that state the same theory.
So is it the position of this site that the actions in movies, television and other media sources directly cause similar behavior in its viewers? Apparently much of the violence that occurs throughout society is directly caused by rap music, crime genre TV & movies and Itchy & Scratchy cartoons. Or maybe it’s just the military who are more susceptible to mind-droning media manipulation due to their obvious limited mental capacity that caused them to be stuck in Iraq to begin with. That must be it.
February 28th, 2007 at 4:55 pmThe dinosaur thing was a joke, geesh…
Comment by hacker bob
From Augusto Monterroso: When he woke up, the dinosaur was still there.
The shortest tale in history.
February 28th, 2007 at 5:10 pmValiantVenusGrewFromUranus,
So, if your links are correct, we can now test for gayness.
We can now eradicate it like any other birth defect.
I think I just became pro-choice.
Hate, the truly progressive value.
February 28th, 2007 at 7:40 pmThe dinosaur thing was a joke, geesh…
Comment by hacker bob
Of course it was a joke, bob. But remember what passes for humour to a progressive.
February 28th, 2007 at 8:57 pmSo, if your links are correct, we can now test for gayness.
We can now eradicate it like any other birth defect.
I think I just became pro-choice.
Hate, the truly progressive value.
Comment by Hate — February 28, 2007 @ 7:40 pm
Why wouldn't you become pro-choice. You hypocrites never stick to your guns, when greed or godless immorality is offered to you as a way to hate! Fcuking fool.
Just so you know, a 'gene' shows a predisposition to a trait. That gene must get enabled however, and it doesn't in all people. That's why some 'men' are born with a Vagina despite the genes.
What does this all mean to a hatemongering, fcukhead like yourself? You're gonna abort babies that would never be gay, despite the gene. You're also probably going to have more than one 'gay-gene', meaning while you kill 'innocent (in the vernacular of the crazy-hate-man)' children, while the 'guilty' live.
Pretty sicko huh? Yep, hate, the truly conservative value! Or is that too progressive for a knuckle dragging idiot like yourself?
February 28th, 2007 at 9:13 pmValiantVenusGrewFromUranus
Collateral damage and acceptable losses. After all, how do you make an omelette if you won't break a few eggs? The 'gene' itself is the birth defect, just like Down Syndrome.
Hate, the truly progressive value.
February 28th, 2007 at 9:38 pmCollateral damage and acceptable losses. After all, how do you make an omelette if you won’t break a few eggs? The ‘gene’ itself is the birth defect, just like Down Syndrome.
Hate, the truly progressive value.
Comment by Hate — February 28, 2007 @ 9:38 pm
So you aren't really opposed to killing babies - just gay babies! Wow, and who said Conservatives aren't Compassionate or Consistent!
So do you think if we found the 'Conservative Gene', we should similarly break your eggs, and rid ourselves of your pestilence? Because if there ever was a disease, you and your hate mongering ark riding freaks sound like it!
Hate, the truly Conservative value.
February 28th, 2007 at 9:41 pmjust like Down Syndrome.
Hate, the truly progressive value.
Comment by Hate — February 28, 2007 @ 9:38 pm
Funny, but to an intellectual liberal, you guys seem st*pid compared to someone with Down Syndrome. Sad for you, funny for us! Idi*t!
February 28th, 2007 at 9:42 pmValiantVenusGrewFromUranus
Are you afraid that a woman would use her power of
choice to prevent future gays?
Are you afraid of a little homo-cide?
The double edged sword of progress. Pro-choice gives the woman the right to choose not to have a gay child.
Hate, the truly progressive value.
February 28th, 2007 at 10:13 pmAre you afraid that a woman would use her power of
choice to prevent future gays? Comment by Hate — February 28, 2007 @ 10:13 pm
Ah, another talking point for the Hillbilly Heroin junkie Rush Limbaugh. I'm not afraid of that at all. But the fact that a st*pid c*nt like yourself would dismiss your 'values' to make abortion legal to attack gays, shows what a hateful sack of sh*t moral relativist fcukhead you are. This happens all over the world already, whether to abort the wrong gender or health problems.
What will this mean? You fcukheads will never be able to get a mandate to abort fetuses past the crazy religious right. If you did, we're talking about fetuses. If you want to be hypocrites, frankly it's a fetus. Your limbaugh talking points just show what a fcuking idiot you are, because you don't understand that we can distinguish between a fetus and person.
Are you afraid of a little homo-cide? Comment by Hate — February 28, 2007 @ 10:13 pm
Homo-cide? Are you referring to a fetus? Or a person? A fetus, nope. You fcukheads can eradicate your own all you want, straight or gay. I figure the fewer of your genes spread around the better. Just look at Vince P, he's a big old 'Mo, and he's as Mary Cheney as you get!
The double edged sword of progress. Pro-choice gives the woman the right to choose not to have a gay child. Comment by Hate — February 28, 2007 @ 10:13 pm
There's those rush limbaugh talking points again. First you assume everyone is as st*pid as you are - not possible. Second you assume people would want to eradicate gay people once they know it's a 'normal' part of nature. Even if this is true, if we're talking about fetuses - well we're not the hypocrites, you would be.
Hate, the truly progressive value.
Comment by Hate — February 28, 2007 @ 10:13 pm
Says the Hate filled Hypocrite. We're not freaked out by either the gay genes or abortions - but you're the dum bass fcukhead freaked out by both! You really should pull your head out of Limbaughs fat disgusting *ss long enough to realize he's made you a laughing stock - fcukhead!
March 1st, 2007 at 12:42 amDid everyone hear the 'Republican-Hate-Machine'? (S)He thinks that we should all discriminate and prevent Down Syndrome babies through abortion? Tell me Rev. Haggard - does your church know how you feel - you fcuking fool?
March 1st, 2007 at 12:49 am[...] pourquoi le Brigadier Général, Patrick Finnegan, s’est rendu sur le tournage de la série 24, à la rencontre des producteurs de la série la plus controversée, afin de les [...]
March 5th, 2007 at 5:11 pm[...] [12] http://www.chicagoreader.com/features/stories/torture/ [13] http://thinkprogress.org/2007/02/28/army-torture-24/ [14] http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/02/02/us-torture-victim-demanding-justice/ [15] [...]
March 21st, 2007 at 1:14 am[...] [12] http://www.chicagoreader.com/features/stories/torture/ [13] http://thinkprogress.org/2007/02/28/army-torture-24/ [14] http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/02/02/us-torture-victim-demanding-justice/ [15] [...]
March 27th, 2007 at 4:19 pm