Exclusive: Hillary Blasts Bush on Military Readiness, Revisionist History
Exclusive: Hillary Blasts Bush on Military Readiness, Revisionist History
Today, ThinkProgress sat down for an interview with Sen. Hillary Clinton (D-NY) after she delivered an address at the Center for American Progress Action Fund on the U.S. military’s readiness crisis. We’ll be featuring clips from the interview today and tomorrow.
We asked her to comment on this quote attacking President Clinton from then-candidate George W. Bush in 2000:
So let’s get something straight right now. To point out that our military has been overextended, taken for granted and neglected, that’s no criticism of the military. That is criticism of a president and vice president and their record of neglect. [CNN, 11/3/00]
“Bingo!” Clinton responded. “It wasn’t true when he said it, but it sure is true now. [Bush] has in a very deliberative way created conditions that are straining our military, underfunding it with respect to what actually gets to troops on the ground and what they get when they get home.” Watch it:
In 2000, Bush claimed there were two Army divisions “not ready for combat.” The Cleveland Plain Dealer fact-checked Bush’s attacks on the Clinton administration. It reported:
Every unit in those two divisions, down to nine-man squads, was in fact ready for combat, division officers said. Had war broken out somewhere, they were ready to go. But Army regulations require any division with units deployed away from home be reported as not combat ready.
Maj. Thomas Collins, an Army spokesman, said at the time: “All 10 Army divisions are combat-ready, fully able to meet their war-fighting mission.”
In contrast, the U.S. Army’s preparedness for war today “has eroded to levels not witnessed by our country in decades.” Virtually all of the U.S.-based Army combat brigades are “rated as unready to deploy,” Army officials say, and a recent Pentagon survey found that troops in Iraq and Afghanistan suffer from chronic shortages of armored vehicles, heavy weapons, and communications equipment.
Transcript:
THINKPROGRESS: Thank you for doing this.
The first question I have is related to the state of our military readiness, which is of course in a very terrible condition, as you talked about today. I wanted to read to you a quote from President Bush in 2000 — this was a quote when he was a candidate — candidate Bush. And I’ll get your reaction to it. Here’s the quote: “So let’s get something straight right now. To point out that our military has been overextended, taken for granted and neglected, that’s no criticism of the military. That is criticism of a president and vice president and their record of neglect.”
What’s your response to that as you hear that now?
CLINTON: Well, bingo! You know it wasn’t true when he said it, but it sure is true now. It has in a very deliberative way created conditions that are straining our military, underfunding it with respect to what actually gets to troops on the ground and what they get when they get home. Yet the Defense budget is half a trillion dollars. And there just is no excuse for the priorities of this administration.
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Bring our troops home now or STFU.
March 8th, 2007 at 4:36 pmShe's right.
Unleash the rabid, uppity woman, and Hillary fearing trolls in 3......2.....1......
March 8th, 2007 at 4:37 pmWhy does George Bush hate our military?
March 8th, 2007 at 4:42 pmOh my fu*king God CNN is as right wing as Fox News. Go look at the front page of CNN right now. Are we supposed to believe that is what all of Iraq is like.
If so, where are the heart warming stories?
Not even Fox and CNN can make them up.
Wanna see how the troops really treat the children in Iraq? Watch the video of the soldiers making the kids chase the Humvee for a mile just to get a bottle of water, which the end up throwing to some guys on the side of the road much larger than the one kid who kept up the whole time.
Can you say "Spreading Propaganda?"
March 8th, 2007 at 4:46 pmThis is why I think a President (aka Commander in Chief) should have some actual military experience... So they will actually understand why war should be avoided, and if it cannot - it should be the absolute, last resort...
March 8th, 2007 at 4:46 pmLadies and gents...let the swift-boating commence.
March 8th, 2007 at 4:47 pmWhy does George Bush hate our military?
Comment by ValiantVenusGrewFromUranus
Because he is the Commander-in-Chief.
March 8th, 2007 at 4:47 pmIs George Bush trying to take care of the world's population problem by killing our soldiars and the people of Iraq?
March 8th, 2007 at 4:48 pmIt sure looks like it to me.
Listen to Spudge_Boy Clinton... listen to spudge_boy...
March 8th, 2007 at 4:51 pmSpudge_Boy is right...
The photo on CNN outrages me! What a joke~!
Well I can stop watching one more new show.
March 8th, 2007 at 4:56 pmCan you say “Spreading Propaganda?â€
Comment by Spudge_Boy — March 8, 2007 @ 4:46 pm
The title of that article was blaming the Democratic leaders for wanting to 'end the friendship'. Nauseating...
March 8th, 2007 at 4:57 pmHere's what's going on in Iraq:
What happened to make a patriotic, gung-ho soldier desert the U.S. army, and turn against the war in Iraq.
...Then something happened that haunts my dreams to this day. All the women were led back inside the house and our entire platoon was ordered to stand guard outside it. Four U.S. military men entered the house with the women. They closed the doors. We couldn't see anything through the windows. I don't know who the military men were, or what unit they were from, but I can only conclude that they outranked us and were at least at the level of first lieutenant or above. That's because our own second lieutenant Joyce was there, and his presence did not deter them.
Normally, when we conducted a raid, we were in and out in 30 minutes or less. You never wanted to stay in one place for too long for fear of exposing yourself to mortar attacks. But our platoon was made to stand guard outside that house for about an hour. The women started shouting and screaming. The men stayed in there with them, behind closed doors. It went on and on and on.
Finally, the men came out and told us to get the hell out of there.
It struck me then that we, the American soldiers, were the terrorists. We were terrorizing Iraqis. Intimidating them. Beating them. Destroying their homes. Probably raping them. The ones we didn't kill had all the reasons in the world to become terrorists themselves. Given what we were doing to them, who could blame them for wanting to kill us, and all Americans? A sick realization lodged like a cancer in my gut. It grew and festered, and troubled me more with every passing day. We, the Americans, had become the terrorists in Iraq
http://www.michaelmoore.com/mustread/index.php?id=835
March 8th, 2007 at 4:59 pmWhile I'm not sure yet if I will vote for Hillary, Obama or whoever, I do admire Clinton's willingness to get into the fray and punch-kick the clowns. She's not afraid of a good fight and we need that now. Take no prisoners, show no mercy, Hillary!
March 8th, 2007 at 4:59 pmwelll Hilary read this get the troops OUT NOW you have killed 2.5% of the population of Iraq
How does that make you feel
March 8th, 2007 at 5:00 pmAn estimated 655,000 Iraqis, 2.5 per cent of the population, have been killed as a result of the invasion,
March 8th, 2007 at 5:01 pmWhy does George Bush hate our military?
Comment by ValiantVenusGrewFromUranus
There's no profit in it for him.
March 8th, 2007 at 5:04 pmR,
The problem with Hillary is that she doesn't see any problem with leaving our troops in Iraq indefinitely. She won't admit that voting for the war in Iraq was a mistake. Right now America wants somebody who is willing to tell the truth. The truth is that voting to authorize the use of military force against Iraq was a mistake.
That's without mentioning that she is a part of the Carlyle Group with Bill CLinton, George W Bush
March 8th, 2007 at 5:05 pmCan you say “Spreading Propaganda?â€
Comment by Spudge_Boy
Spudge, take that television and pitch it out the window. It's more useful as yard art.
March 8th, 2007 at 5:05 pm2.5% of the Iraq population has been killed......
I told you George W. Bush was trying to take care the world's population problem.
WE NEED TO GET OUT OF IRAQ... STOP KILLING OUR PEOPLE AND THE IRAQ PEOPLE.
March 8th, 2007 at 5:06 pmHalf a trillion dollars for the military budget ,and troops in combat and returning troops have received a small portion of that money. The Bush-Cheney regime stuffed the pockets of private contractors, or bribed/financed the wrong civilians who used OUR money to get the means to kill OUR OWN troops. We financed both sides of the civil war, according to Sy Hersh. When Bush, the child-minded miscreant, was elected, he found a surplus, a ready military, and a close prospect of Middle East peace. 9/11 happened because he dropped the ball and sacrificed our great country's treasure to settle some old personal score against Saddam Hussein. Rumsfeld went to war on the cheap and ignored Afganistan, which we need to reinforce. When will the grownups take charge?
March 8th, 2007 at 5:09 pmI agree with Clinton on this. Since she obviously knows that our troops are lacking the funds and equipment needed, I hope we can count on her to provide a bill soon that drastically increases military funding to fix the troop readiness problem ASAP. 1 point for Clinton on this one. It just startles me that the Dems are the party coming out talking about how we need to increase the military funding to fix troop readiness. We could also fix troop readiness by stopping the war right now, but the Dems have got past that and are excited to support and extend the war. I guess the only thing left in drastically increasing the military budget which I support.
March 8th, 2007 at 5:10 pm#19 And what party is going to stop this war again? The Dems don't want to stop it nor does the repugs.
March 8th, 2007 at 5:10 pmWhat this does is to refresh the bias the media had in 2000 to accept anything Bush said. The media was fed up with Clinton's sexual misadventures and saw a refreshing change in Bush. Some in the media still harbor that grudge. Amazing how a stained blue dress is considered more important than plunging a nation into war based on false statements on the threat to our nation --- to this very day.
Yes, we continue to see this -- from Shandra Levy to Anne Nicole Smith. There is an obsession in the media about white women that disappear or die under suspect circumstances. While that is news it does not belong on the front page, especially night after night after night.
March 8th, 2007 at 5:11 pmGood speech and comeback on Bush's remark.
I still want to see Hillary actually "do something" with her power as a senator, before I will consider voting for her.
Frankly her record as a senator shows me a republican-lite, not a Democrat. She voted with the rubberstampers more than against. She voted for the war, and cannot bring herself to admit she was wrong.
She co-sponsored the failed republican flag burning amendment.
What I want from the next president is someone who actially stood up against the current rogue administration. Sadly, so far most of the Democratic candidates are sorely lacking as far as I am concerned.
The ones that actually stood up are not running.
Want my vote Hillary?
March 8th, 2007 at 5:14 pmThen fscking DO SOMETHING.
Talk is cheap.
She’s right.
Unleash the rabid, uppity woman, and Hillary fearing trolls in 3……2…..1……
Comment by Zooey — March 8, 2007 @ 4:37 pm
I'll take your bait...
HILLARY VOTED TO ALLOW THE PRESIDENT TO OVER EXTEND THE MILITARY. I guess she forgot that little detail.
March 8th, 2007 at 5:14 pm#19 And what party is going to stop this war again? The Dems don’t want to stop it nor does the repugs.
Comment by Roger_Roger — March 8, 2007 @ 5:10 pm
This war is why we have no troop readiness, you ignorant d*ck.
As for not wanting to stop the war, it's you fcukheads that want to pull the money out from under the troops so you have a political weapon and an excuse for why you failed in Iraq. Only someone as st*pid as you are would think everyone can't see what a dum ass you are.
While you're at it, read this thread showing the Dems forcing your d*ck in chief's hands.
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/03/08/murtha-contractors/#comments
March 8th, 2007 at 5:14 pmAnd what party is going to stop this war again? The Dems don’t want to stop it nor does the repugs.
Comment by Roger_Roger
The people are going to have to force an end to this war, Rogerx2. Are you willing to stop watching Dancing With the Stars and Survivor, and march in the streets to stop this war?
March 8th, 2007 at 5:15 pmRoger_Roger, why do you hate America, and defend those hateful words of George Bush? Have you always hated the military, or is it part of your 'senility-package'?
March 8th, 2007 at 5:15 pmI’ll take your bait…
HILLARY VOTED TO ALLOW THE PRESIDENT TO OVER EXTEND THE MILITARY. I guess she forgot that little detail.
Comment by hacker bob — March 8, 2007 @ 5:14 pm
I'm so sick of this fcuking lie! The Congress gave bush the flexibility to solve the problem and force UN compliance. The resolution has been misused, and abused, as is always the case when you CONs try to administer things. He and the rest of you weasel and distort the intentions to justify your incompetence.
Lets also not forget, that Bush was supplying Feith's half-baked lies as valid reasons to push on Iraq. Bush lied, and Congress was misled, and only a fool can't recognize this.
You want to hold Congress responsible for the lies of bush? Come on, you're smarter than that Bob - don't act like Roger and pull a complete moron on this one.
March 8th, 2007 at 5:18 pmSo Bob, does this sound like the 'war resolution', was anything more than an effort to ensure UN resolution compliance?
What about Saddam's agreed compliance before we invaded, that we chose to ignore?
And when the resolution allowed us to 'defend our national security', how exactly could Iraq attack our national security? What position were they in again to attack American soil?
You're smarter than that Bob.
March 8th, 2007 at 5:22 pm
HILLARY VOTED TO ALLOW THE PRESIDENT TO OVER EXTEND THE MILITARY. I guess she forgot that little detail.
Comment by hacker bob
She did.
Like I said she voted with the rubberstampers more than against them. She has only spoken against the war, really, since she decided to run for President.
Look at her record.....
March 8th, 2007 at 5:22 pmThe problem with Clinton is not that they weren't ready for combat the corrupt President at the time didn't want to use them. Even after four attacks on America leading to the mass murder of 3,000 Americans on 9/11.
We can't afford to let that happen again. Anybody but Clinton!
March 8th, 2007 at 5:22 pmHILLARY VOTED TO ALLOW THE PRESIDENT TO OVER EXTEND THE MILITARY. I guess she forgot that little detail.
Comment by hacker bob
So naturally she holds more responsibility than Chimpy does.
Right, Robert? Hillary is a very powerful woman, apparently.
The topic of this post is the fact that Hillary is defending Bill's military record against The Boy King's military record. Not HER record. You know how I feel about her, so don't flip me shit. :P
March 8th, 2007 at 5:22 pmWhile I’m not sure yet if I will vote for Hillary, Obama or whoever, I do admire Clinton’s willingness to get into the fray and punch-kick the clowns. She’s not afraid of a good fight and we need that now. Take no prisoners, show no mercy, Hillary!
Comment by R
Then why did ThinkProgress have to remind her of this instead of her saying this on the Senate floor herself? I have heard that bush qoute myself and would have loved to have repeated it on the senate floor myself.
March 8th, 2007 at 5:22 pmI guess the only thing left in drastically increasing the military budget which I support.
Comment by Roger_Roger — March 8, 2007 @ 5:10 pm
Roger - then you send your paycheck, your IRA and your children's college funds to the Pentagon to help cover the increase. Keep you hands off mine. I don't want to contribute any further to this illegal war. The only legitimate and responsible answer is for the troops to leave Iraq!
March 8th, 2007 at 5:23 pmAnybody but Clinton!
Comment by Patrick1
Keith Ellison for President! Patrick Star endorses him!
March 8th, 2007 at 5:25 pmLet's see who supported the lies that Bush told and who didn't. Now that we know Bush/Cheney did lie and we have the facts to prove it it's strange that people talk as if Hillary was in charge and set our troops to invaded Iran and Bush had nothing to do with it. GOP 109th Congress gave Bush a blank check and knew our troops got none of the money to protect yet nothing is said. We learned today that one soldier died because of the problems at Walter Reed and the Rep. knew about it but didn't want to tell as Bush wanted the dumb Americans to believe his lie. As for Bush vs Clinton. How well was America doing during Clinton's 8 years, how many invasion/soldiers killed and did you have money in the US Treasury. Let's see was the United States of American respected and believed by just their word. Say what you want but it's now in your face facts of what Bush has done for 6 years, just ask the injured soldiers living with mice/roaches, female soldiers being raped by our soldiers, ask the families of the dead soldiers who didn't have to die. If you still don't know then your as dumb as the idiot President. Bush did do a great job at dumbing down Americans. By some of the comments it worked well.
March 8th, 2007 at 5:26 pmWant my vote Hillary?
Then fscking DO SOMETHING.
Talk is cheap.
Comment by Wayne — March 8, 2007 @ 5:14 pm
Well said... I agree. No one I want to vote for is running... And those who are sound less like the people we used to admire and more like the clowns already running the show.
March 8th, 2007 at 5:27 pmI’m so sick of this fcuking lie! The Congress gave bush the flexibility to solve the problem and force UN compliance. --ValiantVenusGrewFromUranus
Wrongo..... you misunderstood.
Hillary voted for the military "stop-loss" fact.
March 8th, 2007 at 5:28 pmShe did not support the motion tofloor the amendment either
Ms. Clinton's voting record says it all. All that she is babbling about now is empty rhetoric.
March 8th, 2007 at 5:28 pmEllison would be Hillary's Secretary of Defense to help speed the surrender to the Islamists.
March 8th, 2007 at 5:29 pmAnd what party is going to stop this war again? The Dems don’t want to stop it nor does the repugs.
Bush wants to stop the War but cannot , he would be seen as a bigger failure than Space Shuttle Columbia , He is digging his hole deeper and deeper and deeper , He is on a suicide mission and would rather destroy the planet than admit to making a mistake
Hilary Clinton has the Isreal lobby so far up her Backside , her backside speaks Hebrew
Obama Is Great But a Black man win the election in America I doubt it
Al Gore would Kick ass ........... I trust Al Gore
If Al Gore went for presidency It would be like rewritting time ????almost
March 8th, 2007 at 5:29 pmI have heard that bush qoute myself and would have loved to have repeated it on the senate floor myself.
Comment by ggibson — March 8, 2007 @ 5:22 pm
Then run for office... I'd vote for you just to have someone with a spine actually enter the room on occasion : )
March 8th, 2007 at 5:32 pmSo naturally she holds more responsibility than Chimpy does.
Comment by Zooey
What she holds responsibility for is her senate voting record, Zooey
March 8th, 2007 at 5:32 pmhttp://www.peace-action.org/
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March 8th, 2007 at 5:34 pmThe bombing of the USS Cole was an act of war by Al Quaeda. What exactly did Bush DO about it in his 9 months as president before Sept. 11. ??? Bush is wrecking our Military, and the Generals know it.
March 8th, 2007 at 5:35 pmAl Gore is perhaps the biggest idiot in the world today.
March 8th, 2007 at 5:36 pmEllison would be Hillary’s Secretary of Defense to help speed the surrender to the Islamists.
Comment by Patrick1
STFU patrick.
March 8th, 2007 at 5:37 pmThe adults are talking.
Kick ass.
March 8th, 2007 at 5:39 pmAl Gore is perhaps the biggest idiot in the world today.
Comment by Patrick1
No, you hold that title.
March 8th, 2007 at 5:39 pm#47- You mean besides yourself?
March 8th, 2007 at 5:40 pmThen run for office… I’d vote for you just to have someone with a spine actually enter the room on occasion : )
Comment by unbelievable
I have my own skeletons in the closet... swift boating is the standard now...
March 8th, 2007 at 5:40 pmPetraeus, the new General in charge of the U.S. forces in Iraq, has had the honesty and good sense to admit that further 'shock and awe' tactics ( i.e. brute military force ) is pointless. The 'war' is lost. Now, at last, peace-making may be considered a viable alternative, however unpalatable such an idea might be to the White House.
Talking to the 'insurgents' ( i.e. those violently angry Iraqis and other 'anti-U.S.' types who want the occupiers gone ), could be a move in the right direction. No one will die from talking.
We can now expect that Bush will find a way to get rid of Petraeus as 'too soft' on 'terrsts'. Americans must admit that their Commander-in Chief is a cretinous bully whose uncaring, witless response to the disaster he has created prevents any real progress. Congress must first rid the country of 'Dumbya'if they're really serious about peace.
George bush is one step up from a monkey
March 8th, 2007 at 5:40 pmExcellent solution by the ever patriotic Howard Zinn:
http://www.progressive.org/mag_zinnl0207
"There is a logical next step in this development of an impeachment movement: the convening of “people’s impeachment hearings†all over the country. This is especially important given the timidity of the Democratic Party. Such hearings would bypass Congress, which is not representing the will of the people, and would constitute an inspiring example of grassroots democracy."
March 8th, 2007 at 5:40 pmZooey,
I agree with this crowd that invading Iraq was wrong. I haven't come to the point where I think we can't clean this mess up however. We broke it, we fix it. If I ever for a second thought we couldn't turn it around and help the Iraqi government secure it's country, I would say we should leave. This is just my opinion and I would of course vote just like I thought on this and all issues. My beef is with those that claimed to be against this war and campaigned saying they would end this war as fast as possible. They are not staying true to there word yet many here defend them. This has turned into politcal grab ass and all that matters to both sides is who will lose and gain more power in washington.
If the repugs are in it just for gain or simply trying not to lose, then we should just stop this war. If the Dems are simply voting for the war for gain, they alone with the repugs should be forcably escorted out of Washington.
The Iraq war is a very serious issue to me. I truly hoped neither side was playing politics with it at this point, but I realize now I am wrong. I could see a valid arguement for leaving now because some thought it actually may help the Iraqi's in some way. I also saw a valid arguement that Iraq would turn into a wasteland and the Iraqi government would never be able to secure the country if we left. Both arguements seem possible and I understood the USA choosing either path. Regrettably, our leaders in Washington have shown they don't care about either of these options. They only care about power and that means I can't support any of them.
Murtha was a man of respect even though I disagreed with him. Now he is a traitor to his own cause. You folks even took his bait. This man was against this war. Now he is selling that he will perform "oversight" and withhold "10%" until they figure out all the contractor BS. Don't you see that this man is planning to vote YES in favor of the Iraq money - 10%? This all means he is now extending a war he fought against. This smacks of politics and how can you do that when we have soldiers dying?
The repugs are pulling the very same crap. Bush is fighting the Dems on details of iraq bills simply because he doesn't want them to monitor the situation and wants no input from them. At this point, any man that doesn't conceed we are on thin ice needs to wake up. He should know his plan and decision at this point may fail. Now if he makes this decision because he simply thinks its the best one, fine. I now realize he is making these decisions at this point based on what they will do for him and his party politcally.
Both parties are out of line and both shouldn't be our representatives anymore. I understand they play politics with pork spending and various other petty government programs, but NOT WITH IRAQ. MY GOD!
March 8th, 2007 at 5:41 pmAl Gore is perhaps the biggest idiot in the world today.
Comment by Patrick1
Thats it. You have me sold.
Gore for president '08 and '12
March 8th, 2007 at 5:42 pmMs. Clinton’s voting record says it all. All that she is babbling about now is empty rhetoric.
Comment by Tuber — March 8, 2007 @ 5:28 pm
If you're ever on trial, don't defend yourself... Seriously. You cannot make an argument, much less a logical one.
Ellison would be Hillary’s Secretary of Defense to help speed the surrender to the Islamists.
Comment by Patrick1 — March 8, 2007 @ 5:29 pm
You mean Muslims?
Don't be an idiot...
March 8th, 2007 at 5:44 pmEllison would be Hillary’s Secretary of Defense to help speed the surrender to the Islamists.
Comment by Patrick1
Heh. Patrick Star has a switch.
March 8th, 2007 at 5:46 pmZooey,
I don't watch CNN on TV or any other news for that matter. The picture was on there web site.
TV is for entertainment, not information.
March 8th, 2007 at 5:47 pmWhat she holds responsibility for is her senate voting record, Zooey
Comment by Wayne
Absolutely, Wayne. But not more than that.
God, I hope she doesn't get the Dem nomination.
March 8th, 2007 at 5:47 pmThe CIA used drones and missles to kill the suspects involved in bombing the Cole...this was done under the current Bush aministrations watch:)
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2002-11-04-yemen-side-usat_x.htm?POE=click-refer
March 8th, 2007 at 5:48 pmAl Gore is perhaps the biggest idiot in the world today.
Comment by Patrick1 — March 8, 2007 @ 5:36 pm
If Patty thinks this, then it definitely means that Gore would be a fantastic President. Too bad his turn was taken away from him by the Supreme Court of Jesters...
March 8th, 2007 at 5:48 pm...
Or to put it another way: "OMG our troops are deployed during wartime!"
Seriously, that little unhighlighted gem about the requirement to define units as unready is making its first appearance here.
March 8th, 2007 at 5:49 pmSo how many of the 75% of troops reportedly "unready for deployment" rated as this because they are "already deployed" ?
Tune in elsewhere to find out.
The CIA used drones and missles to kill the suspects involved in bombing the Cole…this was done under the current Bush aministrations watch:)
http://www.usatoday.com/ news/ world/ 2002-11-04-yemen-side-usat_x.htm?POE=click-refer
Comment by Patrick1
He didnt do it until a year after 911... he did NOTHING in the 9 months he had before 911...
And if he had stuck to this type of action instead of leading America away from Saudi Arabia into Iraq Al Qeada might be all dead by now instead of being even larger.
March 8th, 2007 at 5:50 pmGod, I hope she doesn’t get the Dem nomination.
Comment by Zooey — March 8, 2007 @ 5:47 pm
Me neither. I'll see what my Dad can do about that... ; )
March 8th, 2007 at 5:51 pmthere = their
March 8th, 2007 at 5:52 pmHi, Patsy1.
March 8th, 2007 at 5:53 pmPeople who take opposing views and derive some satisfaction in antagonizing others simply to give creedence to thier miserable, nonproductive existence are the biggest idiots in the world. What do you want to be when YOU grow up? Did you finish your homework, yet?
#55 - Rogerx2,
I'm glad you see that invading Iraq was wrong, Rogerx2. What is it that makes you think we can fix this mess? It can't be done -- not with us there. Yes, we are responsible for this clusterf*ck, but our presence is causing more death and destruction than any of us can really imagine.
We have to get out of there.
Yeah, neither party is exactly thrilling me these days. That's why we have to force the issue. You didn't answer my question -- are you prepared to march in the streets along side progressives and liberals and demand an end to this war?
March 8th, 2007 at 5:55 pmI agree with this crowd that invading Iraq was wrong. I haven’t come to the point where I think we can’t clean this mess up however. We broke it, we fix it. If I ever for a second thought we couldn’t turn it around and help the Iraqi government secure it’s country, I would say we should leave. - roger_roger
even if the new US commander has just stated force will not work in Iraq?
U.S. commander says force not enough to succeed in Iraq
March 8th, 2007 at 5:56 pmTV is for entertainment, not information.
Comment by Spudge_Boy
It's not that entertaining either. I was at a sick friend's house today, and she was watching something with a guy getting a root canal under hypnosis. He started screaming in pain halfway through. What a nutcase -- the guy, and my friend for watching it.
Nutty....
March 8th, 2007 at 5:57 pmggibson,
I don't believe OBL was in Saudi Arabia. Are you implying we should have attacked them? We still could over the same reasons.
March 8th, 2007 at 5:58 pmThis will actually be a good opportunity for the North Koreans to invade the south or for China to rid itself of Taiwan independence seekers by invading it. The US military, now stretched to the limit in the Persian Gulf, will not be able to assist US forces stationed near the DMZ in South Korea nor have enough naval power to interfere with Chinese landings in Taiwan, especially if they time it at the same time that Bush launches his attack on Iran.
March 8th, 2007 at 6:00 pmThere is coming a time when the Rethugs have to start backing away from the Bush Iraq strategery.If not, their toast will be burnt even worse in 2008.
March 8th, 2007 at 6:00 pmOn the other hand, the Dems. can't be seen as underfunding the troops.
Iraq is lost,and has been even before we thought we could play 'capture the flag' by tearing down a statue of Saddam and have victory in a war.
Yea,that'll do it; mission accomplished.
So far she's got my vote.
March 8th, 2007 at 6:03 pmSpudge: "The problem with Hillary is that she doesn’t see any problem with leaving our troops in Iraq indefinitely."
This is one of the problems we have on the left. Some of us are as intractable and unreasonable as dominionist fanatic christians are for the right. We can't even get our facts straight when we're talking about candidates who would be far more acceptable than anything Repubs have on the table. Hillary has stated as plainly as possible that if she becomes president, the troops will being coming home immediately if they haven't started already. She has stated plainly (in 2003) that they were basically tricked into voting to authorize. She has clearly stated that if she knew then what she knows now, she wouldn't even allow the authorization to come to a vote. She supports a number of the various Democratic plans to get the troops out of Iraq.
Creeps have been ginning up stories about her for 15 years now and most of you idiots have completely bought into the scam. As Hillary-haters, you award the conservative and mainstream corporate media creeps who have been lying in your faces for years about her. As far as I'm concerned, her only "crime" is that she's a bit of a centrist. But, she's a centrist who favors universal healthcare, bringing the troops home, strengthening the middle class and fiscal responsibility. She favors recinding the tax cuts for the wealthy.
Conservative creeps sandbag you by saying they really want her to run and you fricking believe it! What. Are you nuts? She hasn't been my favorite, but the more I hear this assinine nonsense from "liberals," the more I want her as our first female president. I can't believe the crap she takes from the left. I expect it from the misogenistic creeps on the right. I assume they've bought into all the lies and distortions about her character and background. But, there's just no excuse for people on the left trashing her. You don't have to support her. Just give the hateful trashing a frickin rest for a few days.
March 8th, 2007 at 6:04 pm#68 I am for whatever plan is in the best interests of the Iraqi people. Whatever plan gives those folks the best chance at future security and freedom is what I am for. Is that leaving Iraq now? Is it staying? Is it an escalation? I honestly don't know the answer. I think no one can honestly say they know for sure. I think the next 6 months will be very telling. I can tell you that I certainly will join you if I feel that will gain the Iraqi the best chance at a solid future. Today, I can't say I know the answer.
March 8th, 2007 at 6:07 pmggibson,
I don’t believe OBL was in Saudi Arabia. Are you implying we should have attacked them? We still could over the same reasons.
Comment by Roger_Roger
Yes I do.
I say we go to the UN with a GIANT TV showing the people jumping out of the 911 towers to their death and spell out our charges to the Saudis infront of the whole world. We give them ONE chance to survive and be treated with some respect while they change.... or we show them what WWII was like for the Germans and Japanese.
March 8th, 2007 at 6:11 pmRoger, the latest polls over there show that over 80% of Iraqis want us out of there. So, if you're willing to concede that Iraqis know what's best for themselves, you must be in favor of pulling out. But, whatever happens, the future for Iraq is a Shiite-dominated Islamic republic. And, you can lay the blame for that squarely in the lap of George W. Bush.
March 8th, 2007 at 6:14 pmor we show them what WWII was like for the Germans and Japanese.
Comment by ggibson
Except that Nazis and Japanese weren trained by the CIA.
March 8th, 2007 at 6:14 pmSo far the plan that's in the best interest of the Iraqi people, is to get the hell out of Iraq..and anyone who has the means has been doing just that. Bush was warned that taking out Saddam could result in another Yugoslavia like situation...and that's what happened with one big difference. After 10 years of sanctions, and the chaos following our invasion, the Iraqi people don't like us and don't trust us.
March 8th, 2007 at 6:15 pmor we show them what WWII was like for the Germans and Japanese.
Comment by ggibson
Except that Nazis and Japanese weren trained by the CIA.
Comment by Juan C
Well making frankenstein was bad (though maybe neccessary to give the USSR their own vietnam)... but that doesnt mean you dont put the monster down.
March 8th, 2007 at 6:24 pmHaving our military in a perpetual state of 'readiness' is dangerous. We would have been much better off if we had an unready military 4 years back so then we wouldn't have gotten into that mess in the first place.
March 8th, 2007 at 6:25 pmHaving our military in a perpetual state of ‘readiness’ is dangerous. We would have been much better off if we had an unready military 4 years back so then we wouldn’t have gotten into that mess in the first place.
Comment by syvanen
The founding fathers of America said exactly the same thing... A standing army is dangerous to a democracy. If America really needed many bodies then we the people would rise up and join the effort... just like in WWII.
Though in this age of technology I would say it is better to be working on that technology long before you need it rather than trying to create it real fast just to survive against someone else that already has it... i.e. what if the Germans or Japanese got the nuke and we didnt?
March 8th, 2007 at 6:30 pmRoger gives the president's plan a Freidman at post #75.
Dude, if you are so keen to let the Iraqi have a future why don't you check a poll or two of the people and see how long they want the US troops to stay. Please report your findings...
March 8th, 2007 at 6:33 pmExcept that Nazis and Japanese weren trained by the CIA.
Comment by Juan C
Hell... who wasn't? The US military has been in bed with nearly every country or group who has ever attacked us... Karma.
March 8th, 2007 at 6:33 pmWe would have been much better off if we had an unready military 4 years back so then we wouldn’t have gotten into that mess in the first place.
Comment by syvanen — March 8, 2007 @ 6:25 pm
Well said...
Yet we spend half of our yearly national budget on keeping a standing Army. When I think of what we could be doing with that money instead, it makes me sick.
March 8th, 2007 at 6:36 pmWell making frankenstein was bad
Comment by Gerald Gibson Jr
And vampires, lycanthropes, ghouls, zombies, wraiths, wailing banshees...etc (yeah, I played Dungeons & Dragons in high school)
(though maybe neccessary to give the USSR their own vietnam)…
I dont think this statement should be in a progressive site. At least if one cares about human life.
but that doesnt mean you dont put the monster down.
which is hardly what is going on, right now; or before or somewhere in the near future.
but that doesnt mean you dont put the monster down.
March 8th, 2007 at 6:37 pmi.e. what if the Germans or Japanese got the nuke and we didnt?
Comment by Gerald Gibson Jr
Maybe you will be flooding Japan with good cars.
March 8th, 2007 at 6:38 pmBluedog49,
This is the same as me saying "Vote for me and everybody will get ice cream." Look at her voting record and don't leave out the part of my post that says "That’s without mentioning that she is a part of the Carlyle Group with Bill CLinton, George W Bush."
Hillary is a warmonger just like Bush. She makes a hell of a lot more money off of the military industrial complex than she ever will as a Senator or President.
March 8th, 2007 at 6:39 pmCreeps have been ginning up stories about her for 15 years now and most of you idiots have completely bought into the scam. As Hillary-haters, you award the conservative and mainstream corporate media creeps who have been lying in your faces for years about her.
--- Bluedog49
Sorry, I actually liked Hillary. I do not like her voting record and bill sponsorship in the Senate.
She is responsible for her voting record.
Take a look at it.
Calling me or spudge an idiot for our opinion only means that you are the idiot.
This "don't critique a Democrat because it is playing into conservative hands" stuff is total b*llshit.
I will tell it like it is on any candidate, whether they have a D or R next to their name.
Hillary's voting record speaks volumes.
March 8th, 2007 at 6:39 pmHell… who wasn’t? The US military has been in bed with nearly every country or group who has ever attacked us… Karma.
Comment by unbelievable
No more, no less.
March 8th, 2007 at 6:39 pm(yeah, I played Dungeons & Dragons in high school)
Comment by Juan C
I did to...
(though maybe neccessary to give the USSR their own vietnam)…
I dont think this statement should be in a progressive site. At least if one cares about human life.
Comment by Juan C
Ever see what the USSR was doing to the Afghanis? Far worse than what we have done.
but that doesnt mean you dont put the monster down.
which is hardly what is going on, right now; or before or somewhere in the near future.
Comment by Juan C
Nope. Right now we are just feeding the rightwingers egos.
March 8th, 2007 at 6:44 pmExcept that Nazis and Japanese weren trained by the CIA.
Comment by Juan C
Ummm. the CIA was formed in 1947, AFTER WWII.
March 8th, 2007 at 6:45 pmThis “don’t critique a Democrat because it is playing into conservative hands†stuff is total b*llshit.
I will tell it like it is on any candidate, whether they have a D or R next to their name.
Comment by Wayne — March 8, 2007 @ 6:39 pm
Me too... And it comes with the consequences that people on your own side will attack you for it on occasion. But, I think, like you, that it's what made this country what it is today. Sadly, it's no longer that country. People have drawn lines in the sand and if you dare cross them or point them out, you're suddenly eligible to be attacked or insulted for it. Sad really...
I like Bluedog... Am surprised by the general insult. But understand the frustration.... The Right really has tried to get us to divide ourselves on these important issues. Divide and conquer has always been their strategy. We can't play into it.
March 8th, 2007 at 6:53 pmEver see what the USSR was doing to the Afghanis? Far worse than what we have done.
If I was the US I would not enter into the most barbarian things to do to a country competition. I could win. Both superpowers have commited henious crimes. You just cant use some country´s poor people in order to give a lesson. Thats...well, henious.
Ummm. the CIA was formed in 1947, AFTER WWII.
March 8th, 2007 at 6:53 pmComment by Wayne
Officially. Embassies did all the dirty work before.
"This “don’t critique a Democrat because it is playing into conservative hands†stuff is total b*llshit.
I will tell it like it is on any candidate, whether they have a D or R next to their name."
I didn't say I was against critiqing a Democrat. I said I was against bashing Hillary and Hillary-hating. It's very easy to sit there behind your keyboard and complain about the voting record of anyone. The adult perspective is that politics is about compromise, getting elected and working on legislation. As a Senator, she has a constituency. As a Democrat and a woman, she is tarnished as being soft on this and soft on that. I'm not sure why Spudge calls Hillary a "warmonger," but I think it's ridiculous. She didn't start it, whe wants to end it and she wants the troops to get what they need in the process.
I don't see anyone complaining about Kucinich's anti-choice background. I don't see anyone complaining about Edwards voting for the same authorization that Hillary did. I don't see anyone bashing Biden over his support for the bankruptcy bill. Obama's voting record is almost identical to Hillary's and I don't see anyone complaining that he's a "warmonger."
And, as far as "idiot" is concerned, you tell me, smart guy. Is there any republican, anyone at all on that side that you prefer to Hillary? Have you bought into the right wing smear machine that's been working on her for 15 years now? I really don't want to argue with you guys and I don't think you are idiots. I would guess we agree on almost everything. I'm just sick of all the constant Hillary Clinton hate. As far as I'm concerned, she's to the right of some and to the left of many. I'll vote for her in a New York second and with a smile on my face if she's their nominee. I would love to see all the Hillary-bashers on the right crying bitter tears over a strong, willful woman that they don't like in the Whitehouse. I would love to see Bill Clinton as the first First Gentleman, spreading good will throughout the world. I'm voting for the Democrat next year just as I have every election since 1972. If you guys want to help the right-wing slime machine do its dirty work, that's your right, but I will never be on board with anyone who in any way helps republicans get elected, period.
March 8th, 2007 at 6:59 pmI would love to see Bill Clinton as the first First Gentleman, spreading good will throughout the world.
Comment by Bluedog49
Bill Clinton bombed 5 countries. I dont know how can that be spreading good will. My usual boring answer: no matter who gets up there, politicians dont care about people.
March 8th, 2007 at 7:06 pmi.e. what if the Germans or Japanese got the nuke and we didnt?
Comment by Gerald Gibson Jr
Maybe you will be flooding Japan with good cars.
Comment by Juan C
I dont think they would have treated us as well as we did them after the war. The Japanese
March 8th, 2007 at 7:07 pmIf I was the US I would not enter into the most barbarian things to do to a country competition. I could win. Both superpowers have commited henious crimes. You just cant use some country´s poor people in order to give a lesson. Thats…well, henious.
Comment by Juan C
I really cant argue with that... we were helping those people, but I dont think it was for altruistic reasons... I wish America had never done some of the things it did... and that neither did the Russians and many many others... humans really suck sometimes.
March 8th, 2007 at 7:10 pmComment by Bluedog49
You and I and many others here have been virtually screaming our lungs out for these Dems to stand up and do what Jesus did.... tell the truth and dont back down. ON THE FLOOR OF THE SENATE AND HOUSE OF REPRESENTITIVES... they had a forum but no voice... we had a voice but no forum... I blame THEM.
March 8th, 2007 at 7:12 pm#93-unbelievable,
Precisely what I said above. Judge a candidate/person on their record (actions) and not what they say they'll do or what others say they'll do. You then had a seizure and said something totally out of left field about going to court or something.
Ms. Clinton's voting record does not appeal to me. I can cite multiple cases not the least of which are her votes on the patriot act and the Iraq atrocity.
Please cite, with specific references, where you disagree on her voting record and I'll gladly debate that with you. However, it seems to me that you irrationally jumped all over me and are supporting Ms. Clinton just because she is a woman, a democrat, and has the last name of Clinton.
I would love to be proven wrong, of course, because otherwise your post at #93 is just hypocritical hyperbole.
March 8th, 2007 at 7:13 pmComment by Bluedog49
You couldn't pay me to vote for a Repuke.
But I personally do not like anyone running on the Dem side as of yet. ( see my posts above)
That being said, i would vote for ANY democrat beforeI voted for a republican, even Hillary.
I also will still call it as I see it.
March 8th, 2007 at 7:13 pmThe Japanese
Comment by Gerald Gibson Jr
Japan commited genocide against the Chinese people. I am not saying they are the poor victims. Far from it, but they attacked an US military complex, not a civilian location. Lets put things on perspective. Now, I am in touch with japanese from a buddhist temple near my place. One of them, a karate Shihan (master of masters) told me that after the war, there were complete days without food, they hadnt clothes and they paid costs of war during 30 years. He told me they deserved it for all the harm they had caused. Now, that tells a lot about, I dont know if all of them, but you cant really picture a nowadays japanese warmongering, do you? Just the opposite. I guess that a country needs, sadly, to lose a war or live it right in the streets for it to see that humility instead of a bring ´em on approach would suffice to make progress. How are living standards in Japan or Germany in comparison with the US´s? (Dolphins and whales are, sadly, another story)
March 8th, 2007 at 7:18 pmJuan, whether or not you like it or disagree, Bill Clinton is wildly popular throughout the world. In the last five years, he has done at least as much if not more humanitarian work as Jimmy Carter, who he sees as a model ex-president.
March 8th, 2007 at 7:21 pm#101-Wayne,
That doesn't sound very open minded to me. The logic, if I understand it, is "vote for the best candidate, unless they are in a different political party, and then you should vote for the least bad candidate in your party."
Food for thought: There is no such thing as a "necessary evil" and the lesser of two evils is still EVIL.
Seems to me that you are putting party above country.
March 8th, 2007 at 7:23 pmComment by Juan C
Unlike Christianity, Buddhism and Zen have humility as a central aspect of what they are about. This is probably why the Japanese so easily made the transition. Though not all of them. They still have racist conservatives in that country as well... Humans are animals after all.. we still have some evolving to do.
March 8th, 2007 at 7:27 pm#103-Bluedog49,
So is Michael Jackson.
Not trying to be confrontational, just pointing out how "popularity" is not a gauge of character or righteousness.
March 8th, 2007 at 7:28 pmThat doesn’t sound very open minded to me. The logic, if I understand it, is “vote for the best candidate, unless they are in a different political party, and then you should vote for the least bad candidate in your party.†-- Tuber
After 6 years of Bush and the rubberstampers, no republican will get my vote in 2006. All the rubberstampers are evil in my book.
March 8th, 2007 at 7:30 pmI will haggle and debate over which Dem gets my vote untill after the primaries are over
Comment by Tuber
After what the republicans have let the neocons and christianists get away with the past several years I dont blame Wayne for what he said. It makes sense in the current context. I really like my republican senator Lugar, but I would NOT vote for him to be president after watching him refuse to stand up for what is right the past 6 years.
March 8th, 2007 at 7:30 pmTuber: "Food for thought: There is no such thing as a “necessary evil†and the lesser of two evils is still EVIL."
Tuber, I seem to recall hearing that argument before. When was that? Oh yeah, now I remember, that was in 2000. It's a fine, principled argument. It's result is the world we have today. Over 100,000 Iraqis and over 3200 Americans are dead partly because of it. Will we ever learn?
March 8th, 2007 at 7:34 pmErr--honey--dear Senator Clinton, YOU VOTED TO GIVE AN IDIOT THE AUTHORITY TO DO SO. YOU BOUGHT THE WAR ON TERROR CRAP AND YOU SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER.
To make it worse, dear Senator Clinton, you have blamed it all on his "false intelligence " to you. You have an enormous staff of aides,a nd you have been involved in politics for some fifteen years. Your husband is privvy to intelligence reports---and you still have the nerve to try to pull the wool over our eyes by saying you were "duped"
You are despicable and as bad as the marketing guys who prop up Bush. I will never vote for you--period and cut this crap out. You are DOING NOTHING and you have not done anything for the past six years to rebut the insanity coming out of the Oval Office.
You stink.
March 8th, 2007 at 7:34 pmIn the last five years, he has done at least as much if not more humanitarian work as Jimmy Carter, who he sees as a model ex-president.
Comment by Bluedog49
If you kill a guy becuz you are protecting your life or someone you care for, I wouldnt say a thing (not that I am someone anybody should respond to, just saying...) But if you seat in a fancy office calmly and decide that it is ok to bomb an aspirin factory, killing civilians, i.e. commiting murder and you are not brought to justice for this, nor even talked about it and just, as usual, disregard those deaths as collateral damage, then it doesnt matter how many good things you do afterwards, cuz you havent met justice. Imagine that one of those deaths, was a member of your family, would you just say: well, he has done good things now.?
I agree with you, he is a nice, charming, smart man...but he is still a murderer. If we are going to be progressives, we shouldnt just say: well, thats what we have. No, a human being is not just a human being, a human being is a project towards perfection (sorry if this sounds a little metaphysical), we should honor the fact that we have the greatest survival weapon in all this planet history: the brain. We should be better and we should ask for the betterment of everything in all senses.
March 8th, 2007 at 7:35 pmTuber: "Not trying to be confrontational, just pointing out how “popularity†is not a gauge of character or righteousness."
That's right, but we're talking about the position of "First Gentleman." And, I'm not trying to be confrontational either, but we don't know about Clinton's "righteousness." We can only guess based on the skewed view we have gotten of him in the press. As far as character goes, he came from a disfunctional family on the wrong side of the tracks and rose to the most powerful position in the nation on the basis of his talent alone and without the benefit of any family ties or special help of any kind. He's a distinctly American success story.
And, by the way, I absolutely hate the fact that I'm sitting here defending the Clintons on a left-wing site. It just blows my mind.
March 8th, 2007 at 7:42 pmpatchwork: "You are despicable and as bad as the marketing guys who prop up Bush. I will never vote for you–period and cut this crap out. You are DOING NOTHING and you have not done anything for the past six years to rebut the insanity coming out of the Oval Office.
You stink."
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Anyone who thinks a Clinton and a Bush are equivalent is simply a fool and a tool.
March 8th, 2007 at 7:45 pmJuan, I hate to break it to you, but under your set of rules, almost every U.S. president in history is a "murderer."
March 8th, 2007 at 7:48 pmAnd, by the way, I absolutely hate the fact that I’m sitting here defending the Clintons on a left-wing site. It just blows my mind.
Comment by Bluedog49
Well the tied is turning and the republicans have shown us what happens to people when they put loyalty and party before REASON. Clinton could have stood every single day on the senate floor demanding PROOF that we are not murdering Iraqis. She didnt.
March 8th, 2007 at 7:49 pmJuan, I hate to break it to you, but under your set of rules, almost every U.S. president in history is a “murderer.â€
Comment by Bluedog49
Jaun seems to be a purest so I think he will agree with you on this one.
March 8th, 2007 at 7:50 pmGerald, I will not apologize for believing that Hillary Clinton would make a good president. And, as far as party before reason is concerned, what would you call Green Party members who went to the polls believing that there was no difference between Gore and Bush? Maybe you would call them principled. I would call them fools. I would call them partially responsible for the fact that we are in Iraq today.
March 8th, 2007 at 7:53 pmAnd, by the way, fellow travelers, please notice that while you have been bashing the Clintons and bashing me for defending them, the right-wing slimeballs have been sitting out. They're just sitting hunched over their monitors reading and laughing. They don't need to do anything. Many of you are doing their work for them. Sorry, but that's how I feel about it.
March 8th, 2007 at 7:56 pmerr 2006 should have been 2008
March 8th, 2007 at 7:59 pmWhat would you call Green Party members who went to the polls believing that there was no difference between Gore and Bush?
Comment by Bluedog49
I called them fools. I said that Nader may be a very good person, but the people Bush represent are much worse than nader is good.
However at this time I hope my choice will be between Gore (or any other person I think will move America towards greatness) and some republican. If it is hillary and some republican I will vote for her with as much enthusiasm as I did for Kerry. Hillary (like Kerry) seem to damn interested in playing the game like everyone else. Constantly saying words that can be interpreted 10 different ways so they can later say they are on the side of who ever is currently more popular. If a war is popular but wrong I want to vote for someone that SAYS SO LOUDLY WITHOUT FEAR FOR THEIR JOB OR SHAME BECAUSE THEY GET BOOED.
I want to be proud of my vote this time just as I was in 2000.
March 8th, 2007 at 8:01 pm"Mr. President, show me the spot that is undeniably American territory, upon which we were attacked by Mexicans."
-Abraham Lincoln
Things may come to those who wait, but only the things left by those who hustle. --- Abraham Lincoln
March 8th, 2007 at 8:06 pmJuan, I hate to break it to you, but under your set of rules, almost every U.S. president in history is a “murderer.â€
Comment by Bluedog49
Precisely, but lets not stop at that, most of presidents, kings, emperors, leaders, etc in most countries, most of the time since we stop being nomads.
Juan seems to be a purest so I think he will agree with you on this one.
March 8th, 2007 at 8:07 pmComment by Gerald Gibson Jr
Im not a purist in the dreamer sense. I think we should have better aspirations as an species, dont you? I wont settle for less, I owe it to the ones who are about to come.
Many of you are doing their work for them. Sorry, but that’s how I feel about it.
Comment by Bluedog49
I wont get involved in the Dem or Rep discussion, I just want to say that I just read a civilized and passionate discussion with different POVs and ideas. That must really hurt any troll around.
March 8th, 2007 at 8:09 pmJuan seems to be a purest so I think he will agree with you on this one.
Comment by Gerald Gibson Jr
Im not a purist in the dreamer sense. I think we should have better aspirations as an species, dont you? I wont settle for less, I owe it to the ones who are about to come.
Comment by Juan C
Not like a dreamer... like a Jesus... he (Jesus) could have rebeled against the Romans like many of his fellows did... resistance through violence. He choose a different way.... if only the Jews and the Romans could turn to the other cheek they could be brothers and THEN the Jews would be free...
Humans were not ready for it then and they still are not now... but I would never say people like you Juan are wrong... because you are not... we humans just are not ready for that TRUTH yet...
March 8th, 2007 at 8:13 pmwe humans just are not ready for that TRUTH yet…
Comment by Gerald Gibson Jr
I agree and I am not a Jesus in any sense!! Ha ha!! I am an average guy who wants better for everybody, thats all. Dont you think it is not worth fighting for a better world, Gerald? And, no, I dont get my ideas from Dungeons and Dragons... :)
March 8th, 2007 at 8:18 pmDont you think it is not worth fighting for a better world, Gerald?
Comment by Juan C
That is why I have been pouring my thoughts out on the Internet these past 6 years. I have donated money I could not afford to political campaigns. And I dont shy away from preaching Jesus and Zen even if it makes me sound like a religious freak or a dork. Jesus DIED in a horrible way for the TRUTH ... he did not back down and did not look out for his own long term career. I only wish I knew how to make a silver bullet. In the mean time I try to be a realist... which to me means I can support things that I would think is evil in a Jesus only world. Things that America has done like fire bombing the Japanese and Germans city afte city after city... it was evil... but Jesus wasnt able to change the world so I wont pretend like he did. Maybe some day.... maybe... if we dont destroy ourselves first.
March 8th, 2007 at 8:24 pm#118-Bluedog49,
I respectfully disagree. I would rather have a civil discussion about candidates that focuses on merits like what is going on here right now rather than the insulting and polarized "debates" where you either attack or support someone not based upon your actual feelings and thoughts, but on party loyalties.
In my eyes that's the way it should be and it's also why the trolls are hiding right now because they do not know how to discuss things in such a context text, they are just attack mutts.
It is my feeling that we need to get the right people in government and not just the ones who are wearing the favored "label" at the moment. And I know that keeping an open and non-judgmental mind (much easier said than done) is always beneficial.
March 8th, 2007 at 8:27 pmAnd, by the way, fellow travelers, please notice that while you have been bashing the Clintons and bashing me for defending them, the right-wing slimeballs have been sitting out. --- bluedog49
I call Clinton on her Senate record, and you called me an idiot, rather than looking at her record to debate.
Fine, you like Clinton, that is your choice. If I choose Edwards ( as an example), that is my choice.
I just happen to be someone with a very strange hobby of reading every bill passed by Congress and reviewing who voted for it.
March 8th, 2007 at 8:37 pmWhat I judge CongressCritters by is what they vote for. What they say half the time is BS, and that is both Ds and Rs (especially Rs) LOL
Their voting records show what they actually support.
Bluedog49,
I have said it twice already, so here it is in caps and bolded, so that you understand why I called Hillary a warmonger.
CARLYLE GROUP
March 8th, 2007 at 8:37 pmCARLYLE GROUP
Comment by Spudge_Boy
Yeah, that bothers me alot.
March 8th, 2007 at 8:46 pmThe same group that owns the Bush Family. The Saudi Royals own a controling interest.
Blair is going to work for them after he leaves office.
How fscked up is that?
The Carlyle Group is the largest weapons dealer in the world.
http://www.carlyle.com/eng/index.html
Funny how they says things like this on their front page...
Our mission is to be the premier global private equity firm, leveraging the insight of Carlyle's team of investment professionals to generate extraordinary returns across a range of investment choices, while maintaining our good name and the good name of our investors.
March 8th, 2007 at 8:50 pmCarlyle:
Collin Powell
George H W Bush
George W Bush
Bill Clinton
Hillary Clinton
A big fat stinking slimy pile of purple crap.
March 8th, 2007 at 9:02 pmWatch Tony Blair join John Major in the Euro operations of the Carlyle Group....
March 8th, 2007 at 9:04 pmThese comments are so funny. People didn't vote for Al Gore when he ran for President and have voted to keep GW for two terms now even Al would get a good laugh at this comment
Al Gore would Kick ass ……….. I trust Al Gore
Americans voted twice for an idiot and liar now all this talk about who qualifies for President. Well we've had 6 years and counting yet Americans never look for qualification until Bush destroyed the United States values.
March 8th, 2007 at 9:25 pmBush did a good job at dumbing down Americans, look for the same to follow. Maybe when 200,000 troops are killed in the Iraq civil war people will ask the Dictator to end this maddness or maybe not.
When you grow up and come to the sad realization that there are some people in this world who hate you and want you dead, you might see some benefit of defense and weapons contractors. Then again, you might look really great in tie-dye and good at putting daisies in rifles. (That is one thing about the anti-war crowd that amuses me....all the old, paunchy hippies trying to re-capture their wasted youth.)
Hillary loathed the military when her husband was in office - and service members knew it. She is trying desperately to grow a set so as to come across as a Democrat Margaret Thatcher or Gold Meir. Psssst....Hillary, most of us know you have more stomach for the fight than Bill, but that's not what your Party wants.
March 8th, 2007 at 9:29 pmWhenever a rightwinger talks about hippies I think of cartman from south park ... what a egotistical dumbass. Do hippies even exist anymore?
March 8th, 2007 at 9:34 pmYeah Haggie, you're one to talk about wasted youth....
March 8th, 2007 at 9:34 pmdefense and weapons contractors dont need to sell weapons to foreign companies... let people build their own death machines.
March 8th, 2007 at 9:36 pmTo Wayne: You are definitely not an idiot. I'm sorry if I called you an idiot. I value a debate on Hillary's voting record. As a matter of fact, at this time, John Edwards is my favorite candidate because he is talking about working people and how they're getting screwed. I also like Bill Richardson. But, honestly, I tend to be a very pragmatic guy and I want someone who can win the office, whoever that is. On Hillary's electability, I start with the assumption that when righties say "we want Hillary," they are just sandbagging. I don't believe a word conservatives say these days. I think that they are actually very afraid of Hillary Clinton. Any Dem will be slimed -- after all, that's all they've got. They simply cannot win on the issues. I believe that Hillary has been innoculated by the years of sliming. I don't think they can come up with anything new on her and all the old stuff is very tired. How many times can an imbecile like MA say "Hillary hates the troops" before people's eyes glaze over. The reason I believe the right is afraid of Clinton is that people will naturally be reminded of Bill Clinton's presidency and how astoundingly competent he was compared to this a-hole. People have had enough of this incompetent, mediocre frat-boy and his posing ways. Hillary Clinton exudes competence. She's smart. She's tough. Edwards is also smart and tough. In fact, every single Dem on the run these days is smart and tough compared to this silly product of aristocracy. I apologize to all my fellow lefties here at this site for my anger over Hillary-bashing. I apologize to the hard lefties here who think Hillary is the devil. I know about the Carlyle Group and I agree that it is troubling. I just want the Dems to take about 10 more seats in the Senate and take over the Whitehouse, that's all. However they do it is fine with me. Today, the Democratic party is our only legitimate chance to press forward a marginally progressive agenda. Kucinich is not going to be elected. Nader is not going to be elected. If we don't want another Repub in the whitehouse, it's going to have to be one of these Democrats. Maybe Al Gore will decide to run. I'd happily support him if he did, just like I did in 2000.
March 8th, 2007 at 9:59 pmWell at least Hillary is honest about her military service - beats making up a fantasy life where you are a dashing Naval officer, married a bluff Marine Colonel....
March 8th, 2007 at 10:12 pmI apologize --- Bluedog49
NP
It's all good, man
Actually It was nice to debate someone with brains for a change ;)
The trolls are sorely lacking double digit IQs these days. heh
March 8th, 2007 at 10:38 pmHave to side with Wayne on this one...I watch voting record's and keep track...Yes while in office Bill and Hillery were the best...Have not liked Hillery's voting record of late and don't care much for the chummy bush/ clinton stuff I have been seeing...Looking at several of the candidates and one look's outstanding to me will probably not get the nod that's Kucenich(sp) other's I still have to see more and check out their record's....Blessings
March 8th, 2007 at 10:49 pmThe Carlyle Group...
...architects of...
...The New World Order...
...you can let them convince you that you're a conspiracy theorist if you want to...
...before you know it...
...we'll all be on plantations...
March 8th, 2007 at 10:51 pmPrecisely what I said above. Judge a candidate/person on their record (actions) and not what they say they’ll do or what others say they’ll do.
That's not what you said. You stated an opinion and didn't offer any substantiation. It's that kind of third grade ad hominem commentary that makes your side look irrational and emotional - even when, on occasion, we happen to agree with you.
You then had a seizure and said something totally out of left field about going to court or something.
You have seizures (e.g. this post), I debate and debunk. I don't have to have tantrums, because, unlike you, I possess a triple digit IQ and critical thinking skills...
I was criticizing your approach, but as usual, you read something more into it - which is rather desperate considering I said one sentence about your debating skills and nothing about Hillary...
Ms. Clinton’s voting record does not appeal to me. I can cite multiple cases not the least of which are her votes on the patriot act and the Iraq atrocity.
I don't think Clinton is the best person for the job. I have no idea why you are trying to sell me on that concept. I've never stated otherwise. I'm a Gore fan. Then, if he doesn't run, Obama.
Please cite, with specific references, where you disagree on her voting record and I’ll gladly debate that with you. However, it seems to me that you irrationally jumped all over me and are supporting Ms. Clinton just because she is a woman, a democrat, and has the last name of Clinton.
You seriously have me confused with someone else... I commented about your lack of the ability to make a valid argument. That was it.
I would love to be proven wrong, of course, because otherwise your post at #93 is just hypocritical hyperbole.
Comment by Tuber — March 8, 2007 @ 7:13 pm
No, my post is valid. Your debating skills are atrocious. It has nothing to do with Clinton's viablity. In this case, it is all about you... And why you embarrass thinking Americans that you live here.
Take a deep breath... And unclench.
March 8th, 2007 at 10:52 pmSenator Clinton HAS WON THE CHURCH BINGO JAMBOREE!!!! BINGO BINGO BINGO!!!!! SHE WINS THE FLOAT!!!!! CHIMPya/Cheney GET THE GOAT(to eat also--"My Pet Goat", that is!)!!!!!
March 8th, 2007 at 11:11 pmOne of the consequences of a Hillary yes vote, for the Millitary Commisions act of 2006
This is just a short list.
A full synopsys would be way too long.
Obama voted NO, BTW.
- Allows military commissions to try any offense committed by an “unlawful enemy combatant,†which is defined as a non-US citizen who “purposefully and materially supported hostilities against the U.S. or its co-belligerents who is not a lawful enemy combatant (including a person who is part of the Taliban, al Qaeda, or associated forces)†and is not affiliated with any legal army, militia, or government organization (Sec 948a, 948d)
- Includes the following crimes committed by unlawful enemy combatants as “triable†by the military commissions: terrorism, attacking civilians or protected property, rape, intentionally mistreating a dead body, sexual assault or abuse, taking hostages, torture, murder in violation of the law of war, spying, and wrongfully aiding the enemy (Sec 950v(b))
- Prohibits an enemy combatent from invoking the Geneva Convention (including the writ of habeas corpus) as a source of their rights (Sec 5(a))
- States that no court has jurisdiction to consider an application of habeas corpus from any alien detainee (Sec 950j(b)), (Sec 7)
- Prohibits the use of statements obtained through torture in trial, except when the statement was received prior to the enactment of the Detainee Treatment Act of 2005 and a judge deems it admissible, or the confession was received using methods not defined as torture under the Detainee Treatment Act (Sec 948r)
- States that the President has the right to interpret and apply the Geneva Convention (Sec 6(a)(3))
- Allows classified information to be used as evidence and prohibits the disclosure of classified information in the trials if it would be detrimental to national security (Sec 949(d)(f)(1))
- Allows evidence seized without a search warrant or other authorization to be used during the trial (Sec 949(a)(b)(2)(b))
- Allows hearsay evidence as long as the adverse party is informed of it with sufficient time to produce evidence (Sec 949(a)(b)(2)(E))
http://votesmart.org/ ( a nice resource )
March 8th, 2007 at 11:18 pm#145 Too bad she didn't hit BINGO 4 years ago.
March 8th, 2007 at 11:54 pmWhen you grow up and come to the sad realization that there are some people in this world who hate you and want you dead, you might see some benefit of defense and weapons contractors.Comment by valiant venus — March 8, 2007 @ 9:29 pm
How do you propose we handle animals like *you* that are inside our country and want us dead?
Then again, you might look really great in tie-dye and good at putting daisies in rifles. (That is one thing about the anti-war crowd that amuses me….all the old, paunchy hippies trying to re-capture their wasted youth.) Comment by valiant venus — March 8, 2007 @ 9:29 pm
Yeah, because the world just goes around murdering the Amish. While we're on wasting youth, why have you wasted yours sounding like a constipated old st*pid fcuk?
Hillary loathed the military when her husband was in office - and service members knew it. Comment by valiant venus — March 8, 2007 @ 9:29 pm
What they *knew* and what is *reality* are two different things, when someone is a st*pid c*nt like yourself.
She is trying desperately to grow a set so as to come across as a Democrat Margaret Thatcher or Gold Meir. Psssst….Hillary, most of us know you have more stomach for the fight than Bill, but that’s not what your Party wants. Comment by valiant venus — March 8, 2007 @ 9:29 pm
Most of us know that you have a big pile of cow sh*t in your stomach, you grazing bovine. fcuk off, and join the army in Iraq or Israel, or STFU you st*pid c*w.
March 8th, 2007 at 11:56 pm"....where you are a dashing Naval officer, married a bluff Marine Colonel…." Comment by TerrytheTurtle
You sound a little jealous, Turtle. Probably the closest you ever got to a tank or a cockpit is your shell. (No, I wasn't dashing....but the buff Prince Valiant is.)
March 9th, 2007 at 12:05 amSo valiant venus, a *oranimal like yourself must just salivate over seeing how many people have 'died' from terrorism since Bush's fiasco.
http://static.crooksandliars.com/2007/03/mj-attackgraph.jpg
You sicko terrorist types are just murdering nuts.
March 9th, 2007 at 12:43 amWho is this 'GrewFromUranus' dildo ?
March 9th, 2007 at 1:11 amA dildo grew from your anus ? is this a Matt Sanchez joke ?
March 9th, 2007 at 3:32 am#105 Comment by Juan C
Unlike Christianity, Buddhism and Zen have humility as a central aspect of what they are about. This is probably why the Japanese so easily made the transition. Though not all of them. They still have racist conservatives in that country as well… Humans are animals after all.. we still have some evolving to do.
Comment by Gerald Gibson Jr — March 8, 2007 @ 7:27 pm
Actually, the most predominant religion in Japan is shintoism, an animist one. The components of State Shintoism (the ones that organized religion around a self-proclaimed godly Emperor) have been stripped out from religion, thus giving it a more familiar character, more like the shintoism previous to the XIX century...
March 9th, 2007 at 8:13 amHillary should know about revisionist history. and yes, I am a progressive, female Democrat.
Hillary has always been driven (why else stay in a marriage of convenience with the old hound dog?) and ruthless - she has turned into Rove in an ugly pantsuit - her campaign for Senate in NY was vicious, nasty, and out -swiftboated the swiftys. She has turned into a premier vote whore - she'll say anything except "I was wrong"
I hope the first female president is someone I will be proud to vote for for more than her chromosomes.
March 9th, 2007 at 1:02 pmComment by Evil Spaniard
Yes a friend of mine is married to a Japanese woman. They worship their ancestors (Shintoism)...sort of... but the center of Zen study in the world is in Japan. Zen comes from Buddhism.
March 9th, 2007 at 1:37 pmMAYBE it's because during the CLINTON years, the number of military personnel and equipment dropped to the lowest per capita level in our nations history!
March 9th, 2007 at 2:06 pm#151 - "Who is this ‘GrewFromUranus’ dildo ?" Comment by James R.
Jason (his real name) is an unfortunate vulgarian who is stricken with digital Tourette's syndrome. He has the inability to "argue" unless he is particularly crude. TP generously allows him an outlet for his angst....and most people wisely ignore him.
March 9th, 2007 at 4:31 pm