ThinkFast: March 19, 2007
18: The percentage of Iraqis that have confidence in U.S.-led coalition troops as the war enters its fifth year today. Six in 10 Iraqis say their lives are going badly, and only one-third expect things to improve in the next year. Nearly 90 percent “say they live in fear that the violence ravaging their country will strike themselves and the people with whom they live.”
Almost two years before the FBI publicly admitted this month that “it had ignored its own rules when demanding telephone and financial records about private citizens, a top official in that program warned the bureau about widespread lapses.”
Former U.S. Attorney David Iglesias, who was fired “after Republican complaints that he neglected to prosecute voter fraud,” had been “heralded for his expertise in that area by the Justice Department, which twice selected him to train other federal prosecutors to pursue election crimes.”
Last week, the White House pressured the Office of Management and Budget to withhold earmark data from the public. OMB Director Rob Portman said privately last week: “My hands are tied” due to directives from the White House. Sen. Tom Coburn (R-OK) remarked, “I think the American people should be very disappointed.”
A new twist on the “illegal immigration hunts” sponsored by right-wing college groups: A Boise State University student group is “promoting a speech about immigration with a ‘food stamp drawing’ that requires climbing through a hole in a fence and offering fake identification for a shot at winning dinner at a local Mexican restaurant.”
“Censorship issues return front and center to Congress today” when the House oversight committee resumes its inquiry into reported Bush administration interference in federal climate science,” featuring testimony by infamous Bush official turned Exxon lobbyist Philip Cooney.
The military is ill-prepared to fight a major ground conflict elsewhere. “We have a strategy right now that is outstripping the means to execute it,” Army Chief of Staff Peter Schoomaker told Congress last week. Describing the situation as “stark,” Army Vice Chief of Staff Richard Cody added, “The readiness continues to decline of our next-to-deploy forces.”
The White House has declared its opposition to a bill that would give Washington, DC its first full seat in the House of Representatives, “saying it is unconstitutional, and a key Senate supporter said such concerns could kill the measure.”
And finally: The long-awaited Simpsons movie debut this summer will reveal what state the family’s fictitious Springfield residence is a part of. But Rep. Peter DeFazio (D-OR) already knows. “I think they live just down the street from me, actually,” he said. “I live in Springfield.”
What did we miss? Let us know in the comments section.
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Time for us all to learn the ugly truth about earmarks - the sycophantic OMB is on the hot seat this week. Let it fly! Let the ugly truth be known so we can comprehend it, learn from it, and move beyond it all. The longer this administration remains in power, the more the scandals and the greater the ruin….Bush’s administration is “tainted” by the multitude of scandals so perhaps it’s best that we have two more years for all of the ugly truths to be outed. By then, he will thoroughly deserve the moniker as “the worst president ever in the history of this country” - it will undisputed by then. Besides, this man’s administration will surely TANK any Republican ever hoping to enter political office by then….so I say…..DON’T IMPEACH - Impeachment is the easy way out for this gang of mercenaries….Impeachment is far too good for criminals who deserve to be brought to justice and do jail time.
And, let’s open WIDE this “illegal wiretapping” a full two years before FBI admitted to breaking their own rules with regard to our constitutional rights….
Let’s put bets on which political enemies were wiretapped, shall we?
March 19th, 2007 at 9:15 amBush is effectively “stripping our military” each day which will render this country absolutely impotent to adress any national crisis in the future. This marauding must stop.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:16 amThe military is ill-prepared to fight a major ground conflict elsewhere. “We have a strategy right now that is outstripping the means to execute it,†Army Chief of Staff Peter Schoomaker told Congress last week. Describing the situation as “stark,†Army Vice Chief of Staff Richard Cody added, “The readiness continues to decline of our next-to-deploy forces.â€
We’ll never have a general draft in this country again, as such a draft will require the ruling elite to take measures to ensure they and their progeny don’t have to fight. The economic draft we currently have in effect works much better for them in this regard, as the elite are excluded by default.
Given the above, we can expect the economy to deteriorate further as the neocons remain in power, in order to provide more disenfranchised youths with no other option than to sign up to be more meat for the grinder.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:18 amThere is good news though. Today is the fourth anniversary of the Iraq War.
Cheney finally got his flowers.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:20 amComment by DoVoyeur — March 19, 2007 @ 9:17 am
Two things, DoVoyeur:
One, did you have a point in mind behind posting that revolting exchange between Chimpy and Al-Mahdi? If so, please elucidate.
Two, the link to your reprehensible ‘voyeur’ site shouldn’t even be posted once, let alone twice. Take your link-whoring elsewhere.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:23 amDoVoyeur: Oversimplification has never been attributed to you, that’s certain! Maybe you should simply just post the url to make it easier on posters to comprehend what you are trying to say?
March 19th, 2007 at 9:26 amTrip Master: I’m sitting here chuckling to myself because I haven’t seen this amount of nonsense posted on these threads ever! I’m scratching my head regarding what DeVoyeur is trying to say & what language he is speaking because it certainly isn’t English. It’s confounding and pretty comical.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:28 amSen. Tom Coburn (R-OK) remarked, “I think the American people should be very disappointed.â€
This is true of EVERYTHING that has been done by the Bush White House in the past six years.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:29 amAha! I get it now….DeVoyeur is a “link whore” - that makes perfect sense. We’ll just scroll past these ridiculous nonsensical ramblings now and ignore them. Clearly, they make no logical sense and are not written coherently or articulately enough to understand.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:30 amComment by DoVoyeur — March 19, 2007 @ 9:17 am
This one is definitely living in Mom’s basement.
Beat it, freak.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:31 amA new twist on the ‘illegal immigration hunts†sponsored by right-wing college groups
Why do I get the feeling that this is being orchestrated? Could it be just a coincidence that college Republicans all around the country are suddenly coming up with these anti-immigrant games? It doesn’t surprise me that they’re a bunch of flaming racists, but why are they all coming out of the closet at once? Are they trying to recruit neo-Nazis?
March 19th, 2007 at 9:31 amRegarding the House seat for D.C. I’ll have to agree with the White House’s interpretation on this. The Constitution does not provide a mechanism for giving a seat to D.C., nor to the Territories, for that matter.
If D.C. wants a seat, there will have to be an Amendment passed.
Either that, or redefine the land set aside for the Federal Government to just that which sits underneath Federal Buildings and parks and returning the rest of the land to Maryland, which can then create a Congressional District (or two) out of it.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:32 amveritas,
David Walker, the Comptroller General…
…is (and HAS been) doing a Richard Clark (remember him?)…
…on a budgetary doomsday…
…the deficit is out of control…
…he was out last week saying the next major candidates (and new Pres.)…
…MUST place the budget as one of the top 3 priorities…
…personally I believe he’s being kind about it…
…I think we’re damn near broke…
March 19th, 2007 at 9:34 amToday is the 4th anniversary of this horrendous war and the Prez invites the Gators to the WH in order to pretend that everything is going so swimmingly that he can “hang out with Champions”. What a transparent charade!
I’m wondering is Dubya will insert himself on one of the Gator collectible “cards” which acccompanied their programs during their championship year now? He did it with his Texas Rangers as though he knew something about sports - hah!
His affinity for game playing was illustrated in that ridiculously juvenile “deck of cards” game he had with the hijackers - appalling!
March 19th, 2007 at 9:34 amNo doubt he will have an official “championship card” made up with his ugly mug on it and insert it in either Chris Leak’s place or Urban Meyer’s place.
Two wrongs make a right.
Comment by Jake
March 19th, 2007 at 9:35 amTwo wrongs make a right.
Comment by Patrick1
March 19th, 2007 at 9:36 amLet’s hope Sen. Leahy does to Big Dick what Big Dick told Leahy to do to himself.
KKKarl, you may not get away with your ‘Lord High Commander & Brains of the Bushlickers’ disappearing act this time.
Wouldn’t it be nice to see this jerkoff actually held accountable for something after 6 years of lies, innuendo & malicious fabrications?
Meanwhile, we have the extraordinary piece of shit, Tom DeLay, on Meet the Press, stating that anyone demonstrating against the war last weekend are not Patriots. Methinks, Bugman does not understand what a true Patriot is.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:37 amWhy is anyone interested in what this insane, corrupt turd thinks?
Remember, the 1st US Attorney fired was investigating Abramhoff.
Comment by chimpeach — March 19, 2007 @ 9:31 am
Actually, they are anti-ILLEGAL immigrant games. Do you think that illegal immigration is not a problem in the US?
I agree their method is stupid, they should include more than hispanics or it comes across as being racist.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:42 amAlmost two years before the FBI publicly admitted this month that “it had ignored its own rules when demanding telephone and financial records about private citizens, a top official in that program warned the bureau about widespread lapses.â€
What the trolls and the 30%ers don’t get is the full application of Bush’s statement, “You’re either with us, or with the enemy.”
If you oppose Bush in any way, you’re with the enemy. Bush doesn’t just want to know if you’re calling bin Laden. He wants to know if you’re calling Cindy Sheehan. He wants to know if you’re part of MoveOn, or the Quakers.
As long as Impeachment remains off the table, everything that is being done is a diversion to keep us placated while those in power keep raking in the money. Libby, Gonzalez, various Generals, they can all be thrown off the bus, much to our delight, as those behind the scenes still pull the strings of the Government.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:42 amWhenever I read a sickening story like the one here about the students at Boise State University, I think back to Tom “Bug Boy” DeLay’s speech at the 2000 Republic Party convention. It was there, from the podium, that Bug Boy declared “We (Repugnicans) are the party of god.”
Although now an agnostic, I was confirmed in the Lutheran church in junior high. I dont ever remember the “god” we studied then being as mean and hateful as the “god” the Republic Party supports. These students at Boise State University certainly appear to be headed for some leadership positions in the Republic Party hierarchy in the very near future.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:42 amA new twist on the “illegal immigration hunts†sponsored by right-wing college groups: A Boise State University student group is “promoting a speech about immigration with a ‘food stamp drawing’ that requires climbing through a hole in a fence and offering fake identification for a shot at winning dinner at a local Mexican restaurant.â€
OMG Can I be any more embarassed! This is the university I am attending. I knew we lived ina backwards state, but thought that the university was the one place that more liberal leaning thinking could take place. This makes me want to puke. Not the kind of national attention to be proud of you idiots! AARRRRRGGGG
March 19th, 2007 at 9:44 amHacker Bob, what is it about reinforcing negative stereotypes that you approve of?
March 19th, 2007 at 9:46 amThe White House has declared its opposition to a bill that would give Washington, DC its first full seat in the House of Representatives,
Well, sounds like a good idea to me. Of course, at this point, anything the White House opposes sounds like a good idea…
“saying it is unconstitutional
Oh, now that is RICH. This administration, which, through its ceaseless attacks on the Constitution, has done more damage to this country than any foreign power could ever dream of doing, has the unmitigated gall to oppose something because it is allegedly unconstitutional???
My irony-meter is shooting sparks and igniting the carpet. I’ll be back in a bit.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:47 amWhat the trolls and the 30%ers don’t get is…
Comment by Briseadh na Faire — March 19, 2007 @ 9:42 am
There are a lot of things they don’t get. They share something in common with Bush: an inability to learn. This is the definition of stupidity.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:47 am18: The percentage of Iraqis […]
well, this information certainly is at odds with a “poll” that exlies put forth yesterday… from the ’sunday times’, no less…
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/ tol/ news/ world/ iraq/ article1530762.ece
imagine that…
March 19th, 2007 at 9:48 amBluedahlia sez:
I’m so sorry, BD…but consider that you’re in a prime position to protest this idiotic display.
My personal choice would to gather a group of like-minded citizens to dress up as Border Militia members and disrupt the proceedings by tackling the contestants and acting as much like moronic hicks as possible. ^_^
March 19th, 2007 at 9:52 amComment by TheToonGuy — March 19, 2007 @ 9:46 am
What is it about allowing illegal activity that you approve of?
Illegal immigrationis a problem in the US, is it not? It is not just Hispanics (Mexicans) that come to this country illegally. The focus should not ONLY be on hispanics. That is my point. They should be focused on all illegal immigration instead of a select group.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:52 amYeah katy, the timesonline poll indicates that most Iraqis are just fine, prefer the current situation to living under Sadaam, don’t mind a couple of hours of electricity each day, enjoy having their kids miss getting an education because they’re too afraid to let them travel back and forth to school….Hmmmm.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:55 amMy personal choice would to gather a group of like-minded citizens to dress up as Border Militia members and disrupt the proceedings by tackling the contestants and acting as much like moronic hicks as possible. ^_^
Comment by TripMaster Monkey — March 19, 2007 @ 9:52 am
Silence free speech with violent action. That is a really good approach.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:56 amKARACHI, Pakistan (Reuters) — The lawyer of an Islamist militant sentenced to hang in Pakistan for his role in the 2002 murder of U.S. reporter Daniel Pearl said on Monday he would use a top al Qaeda militant’s confession to support an appeal.
British-born Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh, or Sheikh Omar, was sentenced to death in 2002 for the kidnapping and murder of the Wall Street Journal reporter, who was abducted while researching a story on Islamic militants.
But Khalid Sheikh Mohammed — the self-proclaimed mastermind of the September 11, 2001, attacks on the United States — said in a confession released by U.S. authorities last week that he killed Pearl.
whats going on here ???????????????
March 19th, 2007 at 9:58 am#21 Ben Dover
March 19th, 2007 at 9:58 amPlease, please do not think that all or even a majority of us students think or believe what a loud and viscious minority of fringe of students do. They do not speak for me or for many there, I know. These same bootsteppers protest “The Vagina Monologues” every year and recently are dictating policy about how to choose speakers that come to the university. (Didn’t like a sold out Al Gore presentation) We live in a red state, so the administration feels obligated to let these pukes have a voice. Completely makes me sick.
GREAT IDEA Tripmaster!!! You should have been here in DC with me Saturday walking up and down in front of the freeper jackals by the Vietnam Vets memorial. I pissed one of them off by saying “Ditto Rush” and he lunged at me - conveniently into the arms of a waiting US Park Police officer.
But you are right. The student at Boise State needs to take it to the streets. Power to the people.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:59 amComment by Bluedahlia — March 19, 2007 @ 9:58 am
Actually, the Constitution allows them to have a voice.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:59 am#34
March 19th, 2007 at 10:02 amDid I state otherwise?
#26, the Times Online poll is simply amazing. 25% of families have had a member murdered, and 33% have had a member kidnapped, and most of them describe life as better than under Saddam? Murdoch’s gang must be getting very desperate, judging from how bold and obvious their lies have become. Do you think Murdoch might be worried about losing his broadcast licenses in the U.S. if the Bush regime is toppled?
March 19th, 2007 at 10:02 am#32. Not at all. My comments were directed at the Hitler youth there who are behaving like sea cucumbers. The specific comment about them being in line for leadership positions in the Republic Party should have shown I was focused on them, not all of you. You go give them hell and don’t back down.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:02 amYes, you did. It is not a matter of the administration feeling obligated, it is a matter that teh administration IS obligated to let the pukes have a voice.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:05 amComment by hacker bob
Was that meant to be an answer to my question? Do you favor or oppose the display of reinforcing negative stereotypes?
March 19th, 2007 at 10:05 am4. Actually as you can see by Bush and Cheney it was possible to keep the ruling elite out of the military even with a draft. In fact people who were upper middle class could many time keep kids out. And intellectual like Bill Clinton would be contacted by their senators to stay out which kind of makes sense. Although it doesn’t make too much sense to send the brightest people into combat certainly they could have contributed in many ways.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:07 amBut people shouldn’t deceive themselves into thinking that the draft equalizes the military because Viet Nam showed that wasn’t so.
You know, I didn’t even know about this until I read about it on TP. I quit reading the student paper here becuase the president of the young republliscums used to be editor and the stories were out of this world biased. I am contacting our cultural center and finding out what kind of protests are being made. I will be there.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:13 amComment by TheToonGuy — March 19, 2007 @ 10:05 am
I oppose reinforcing negative stereotypes. I guess you missed the part where I said their method was stupid.
Now, what is wrong with them speaking out against illegal immigration or having a speaker come talk about the problems of illegal immigration?
And
Do you approve of illegal immigration?
March 19th, 2007 at 10:14 amMr. President, the Congress, the administration — for all the sacrifices, effort, assistance given to help my country.
Comment by DoVoyeur — March 19, 2007 @ 9:17 am
Now Mr. President if you would only do something for the citizens of THIS country we might appreciate you to. How about giving us back our civil liberties, or taking care of our injured soldiers, or looking into why people of Hurricane Katrina are still being hung out to dry. But we understand you’re busy cashing that blank check you got for stealing that oil out from under the Iraqi people and getting those great contracts for your friends, the oil companies.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:14 am#38
March 19th, 2007 at 10:15 amMy mistake, let me re-word it so that I am clearer about my meaning. We live in a red state, so the administration feels obligated to let these pukes dictate policy to them.
Again,
The College Dems should be on the other side of the fence, offering the people that go through the fence a job for shit pay and slave workling conditions, and laughing about how much money they get to take to the bank.
This sh*t cuts both ways.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:17 amshane sez:
Granted, shane. My aim was not to portray a general draft as a solution to the inequalities of American life. It clearly isn’t, as the examples you cited (Clinton, Bush, Cheney, etc.) show.
However, while the draft was on, these people needed to take positive action to ensure they would not have to serve…Bush with his National Guard non-service, Cheney with his deferrments, etc., etc. These actions are on the record, and can be brought up in the future. However, under an ‘all-volunteer’ army (read: economic draft), the elite don’t have to provide even minimal justification for not serving.
In short, the economic draft is harmful not merely because it keeps the elite safe from service (as you pointed out, the elite will always find ways to avoid service)…it is more harmful because it perpetuates the formation of a caste system in this country: the entitled, who run the country from their ivory towers, and the proles, who must do the work of the society, including executing the violent foreign policy of the elite. The really terrible thing about the economic draft is that it institutionalizes such an outlook.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:18 amAre they trying to recruit neo-Nazis?
Comment by chimpeach — March 19, 2007 @ 9:31 am
No doubt they are trying to recruit for those militia groups they so love. I’d bet Rove has his fingerprints on this one too. With all the soldiers in Iraq they’d probably use these militia groups to round people up for that work camp the administration is hiding.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:18 amThere is a fairly easy solution to stopping illegal immigration, and that is to penalize those providing jobs to them so severely, they don’t have a business to run anymore.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:19 amAs the supply of jobs disappears, so will the illegal immigration problem.
Bob, how bout it?
The long-awaited Simpsons movie debut this summer will reveal what state the family’s fictitious Springfield residence is a part of.
This is ridiculous. Everyone knows they live in the State of Hilarity.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:20 amI agree their method is stupid
Comment by hacker bob — March 19, 2007 @ 9:52 am
Well there’s one legitimate point in your post. Oh and the end doesn’t always justify the means. And by the way immigrants are HUMANS.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:22 am#10 veritas
Aha! I get it now….DeVoyeur is a “link whoreâ€
That was my take on it, too. It’s the equivalent of the spam messages I get that have something topical in the subject line–like it was cut and pasted right out of the middle of a Newsweek article about Iraq– but the body of the message is just another Viagra ad. I won’t bother going to DoVoyeur’s site. I doubt that he’s peddling anything I’d be interested in buying.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:24 amhacker bob sez:
I’m curious, hacker bob…what are the problems of illegal immigration? Really.
You do know that if every illegal immigrant was deported, or even paid minimum wage, our economy would implode, right?
(Note: I am not attempting to defend illegal immigration here…I am merely pointing out that the problem is far more complex than these young Republicans are admitting, leading me to believe that this stunt they’re pulling is just another distraction issue, designed to take our attention away from the truly important issues of the day…issues the young Republicans would rather we not address.)
March 19th, 2007 at 10:24 amMOST Iraqis believe life is better for them now than it was under Saddam Hussein, according to a British opinion poll published today.
The survey of more than 5,000 Iraqis found the majority optimistic despite their suffering in sectarian violence since the American-led invasion four years ago this week.
One in four Iraqis has had a family member murdered, says the poll by Opinion Research Business. In Baghdad, the capital, one in four has had a relative kidnapped and one in three said members of their family had fled abroad. But when asked whether they preferred life under Saddam, the dictator who was executed last December, or under Nouri al-Maliki, the prime minister, most replied that things were better for them today.
Only 27% think there is a civil war in Iraq, compared with 61% who do not, according to the survey carried out last month.
By a majority of two to one, Iraqis believe military operations now under way will disarm all militias. More than half say security will improve after a withdrawal of multinational forces.
Margaret Beckett, the foreign secretary, said the findings pointed to progress. “There is no widespread violence in the four southern provinces and the fact that the picture is more complex than the stereotype usually portrayed is reflected in today’s poll,†she said.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/ tol/ news/ world/ iraq/ article1530762.ece
You can try and BS this all you want. Most Iraqi’s are happier now and most don’t think they are in a Civil War. This article gives me even more confidence that we are in fact doing the right thing. We make this mess and we should clean it up. Even the Iraqi people are confident in us and want us to stay. How could anyone walk away from these people in their time of need when they are asking our help with a problem we caused? Walking away right now would be completely incorrect and heartless IMO.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:28 amHacker Bob,
To forcefully criticize rude, racist, hateful and stupid behavior by college Republicans is NOT suppression of free speech
The government has no right to dictate what may or may not be said. However, we, as citizens, have a responsibility to expose and denounce this sort of anti-social behavior.
It is time for Republicans to say why this behavior is not symptomatic of the Republican party’s overall mindframe.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:28 am#19 hacker bob
Actually, they are anti-ILLEGAL immigrant games. Do you think that illegal immigration is not a problem in the US?
Do you think they’re concerned about anything besides the racial or ethnic attributes of immigrants, legal or illegal? This isn’t about the problems of illegal immigration. It’s about targeting minorities and being able to do it under the cover of “but they’re breaking the law.”
I agree their method is stupid
Then you got the point.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:30 amActually, the Constitution allows them to have a voice.
Comment by hacker bob — March 19, 2007 @ 9:59 am
And it also allows the people who think they are embarrassing, idiotic jackasses to have a voice. You get what you play for.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:32 am#54 Does it matter what there reasons are? Getting rid of illegal immigrants is the primary focus. Who cares what the reason is as there are alot of them. Does it matter if their primary concern is the fact that they deflate pay checks and steal American jobs from the poor or if they simply don’t like other countries illegally crossing our borders in an attempt to take over our country? Either way they are correct to promote the idea of the USA getting rid of them all.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:33 am#30 Silence free speech with violent action. That is a really good approach.
Comment by hacker bob — March 19, 2007 @ 9:56 am
*cough* hate speech *cough*
March 19th, 2007 at 10:34 am#51 RR, the poll is a hoax.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:36 amGood point about not all illegal immigrants being Latinos.
I’m seeing a lot of Eastern Europeans now and I doubt they all have green cards. We now have a serious Russian Mafia problem in this country, as bad as the problem we are having with Latino gangs.
The only way to deal with the immigration issue is to keep it color-blind. This isn’t about specific ethnic groups, this is about enforcing the law and that alone.
Who left our borders wide open since 9-11? Chimpy did.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:36 am#55 Does it matter if their primary concern is the fact that they deflate pay checks and steal American jobs from the poor or if they simply don’t like other countries illegally crossing our borders in an attempt to take over our country?
Ermmm… they don’t steal American jobs. American bosses give they the jobs. And American bosses are very happy deflating the paychecks. Full capitalism, remember? So, again, who is responsible?
March 19th, 2007 at 10:37 amSo RR, do you think it makes sense that most Iraqis are happier, despite the fact that one fourth of them have had a family member killed, and one third have had a family member kidnapped? Doesn’t it bother you that this poll is at complete odds with other polls on this issue?
March 19th, 2007 at 10:37 amI think the new Brit poll is a hoax too. Its own numbers belie the assertion it makes that Iraq is improving. When 25% of Iraqis polled have lost a family member and 33% have family who have fled Iraq, that is not a sign that things are improving.
If this poll is indeed a hoax, I would love to see some proof. The fact that it contradicts all the other polls coming out of Iraq is an indicator that it is a bad poll.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:39 amAmazing how the koolaid drinking Bush/Murdoch supplicants get on their knees to lap up these poll results that have obviously been fabricated by a rightwing propaganda generating organization.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:39 am#57 Just because you want desparetly for the Iraqis to not like us and for the USA to fail doesn’t mean it will happen sir. Why is this poll a Hoax? Please give me detailed information as the polls and the article come from a very good source. You may not want to believe the Iraqi want our help, but they certainly do. They also are stating in droves that they are happier now then before we liberated them. I know, all shockers to this crowd that people value Freedom and Democracy over everything else.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:40 am45. Comment by TripMaster Monkey — March 19, 2007 @ 10:18 am
Great points about getting the elite on record for why they chose not to serve. My concern with the draft is that underpriveleged will have no way to avoid service while the elite will still be sitting out any war.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:40 amThe other thing I believe is that if Bush had the draft we would have many more trips in more arenas than we have now.
Roger_Rhetoric sez:
RR, see my earlier post for today’s reason you are a moron.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:41 amI wonder if hacker bob was among the 2,000 dittoheads who were so vociferous in their opposition to me and 10s of thousands of other peace loving people at the Pentagon on Saturday? My recollection is that we the people were there peacefully. We didn’t yell and scream obsenities at the Bush war supporters. None of us called other “motherfucking traitors” as the Bush war supporters did. If there was violence on Saturday in DC it was from the uneducated sheeple who follow Rush and Faux Noise Network. It wasn’t from those called “traitors” by sea slugs like Bob.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:41 am#41 Bluedahlia
I wonder how many of these college Republicans at Boise State come from farm families in eastern Idaho. The potato farmers have been hiring illegal immigrants for decades, and the nice homes and modern equipment they have are due to the cheap labor of migrant farmworkers from Mexico. It might have even helped pay for those kids’ college education.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:41 am#60 I do think it makes sense. Anyone not living in Freedom and Democracy wants it. It is the most valuable thing is life and death is certainly worth it. How many Americans died to gain out Freedom? Was it worth it? The Iraqis, like all people of the world, understand what it takes and are obviously willing to lay their lives down for the most important thing in the world.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:45 amBob, how bout it?
Comment by RUCerious — March 19, 2007 @ 10:19 am
I am all for it. By all means punish the businesses that hire illegal immigrants. Also punish the landlords that rent to them. If there are no jobs for them and no places for them to live, maybe they will try to come here legally.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:45 amComment by Roger_Roger — March 19, 2007 @ 10:28 am
Reread the article R2dumb2. It states one assertion and gives percentages on a different assertion. If the data is so definitive why didn’t they give all the numbers. Figures don’t lie but liars figure. Of course the fact that the Iraqis are all refugees in England could be a factor. They never said where these statistics were gathers.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:45 amPerhaps they got the data from the Kurds who are not involved apparently.
Gross oversimplification seems to be the best friend of neocons.
shane sez:
Thanx ^_^
Excellent point yourself…I guess that, according to this logic, we will indeed have a general draft, as soon as we reach the point where it no longer matters whether or not the elite are on record as avoiding service (a point I fear we are approaching at breakneck speed). Once we hit that point, only the true ruling elite will be safely exempt from service.
That is true…it’s unreasonable to assume that Chimpy would be any more prudent with a standing army ten times the size it is currently, than he has proved to be with our current ‘volunteer’ army.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:47 am#57 Just because you want desparetly for the Iraqis to not like us and for the USA to fail doesn’t mean it will happen sir.
Nice straw man arguments, loser. What an intellectual wuss.
The poll is obviously a hoax. Its own numbers utterly defy common sense. It is also at odds with all other polls, the numbers in which by and large do make sense. The poll was conducted by a known right wing polling apparatus, and was published in a Rupert Murdoch owned newspaper. Murdoch is a documented propagandist who carries water for the Bush administration, and is a fervent supporter of the war in Iraq. So you figure it out from there, RR.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:49 amAnd it also allows the people who think they are embarrassing, idiotic jackasses to have a voice. You get what you play for.
Comment by shane — March 19, 2007 @ 10:32 am
I am all for the opposition being able to have the opposing view. I do draw the line when it comes to ” tackling the contestants”. That is not simply “having a say”, it is assault.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:50 amWhoa, the 5000 Iraqis polled are not actually IN Iraq?
That poll is meaningless then.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:50 am#65 I am willing to take the economic hit to remove illegal aliens from our soil. It is creepy how the left is so eager to fight to allow illegals to keep invading America. Your the party that is supposed to fight for poor Americans. Illegal aliens reduce the average wage and take jobs away from poor Americans. Business’ should be fined heavily for even hiring one and our President/Congress should be doing everything in their power to protect poor Americans. THere is simply no reason (other then the fact both sides get paid tons of money to not do anything about illegal aliens) that they cannot rid this country of this horrid problem. I am for raising the minimum wage, but doing that and forgeting to rid this country of those that take away the jobs and deflate wages illegally is very hypocritical.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:51 amTo forcefully criticize rude, racist, hateful and stupid behavior by college Republicans is NOT suppression of free speech
So, assault is a reasonable solution?
The government has no right to dictate what may or may not be said. However, we, as citizens, have a responsibility to expose and denounce this sort of anti-social behavior.
So, you agree we should not have any hate-crime legislation when it comes to speech then.
It is time for Republicans to say why this behavior is not symptomatic of the Republican party’s overall mindframe.
Comment by Peter — March 19, 2007 @ 10:28 am
It isn’t as far as I know. For SOME Republicans it is, but not all. Not even the majority.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:53 am#66 Chimpeach,
March 19th, 2007 at 10:53 amFunny you mention that. Our biggest and most “famous” Idaho billionaire made his fortune in the potato and agriculture industry. Many here know that him and his empire were built upon destruction of the environment and exploitation of his employees. I think you hit the nail on the head. It is ironic as well.
#60 I do think it makes sense. Anyone not living in Freedom and Democracy wants it.
Comment by Roger_Roger — March 19, 2007 @ 10:45 am
You are a naive idiot, RR. People want food, shelter, and security first. People want to live in a place where they don’t have to fear death every time they leave their house. People want to live in a place where their kids can go outside, can go to school, can play. Freedom means nothing in the chaos that is Iraq.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:54 amWho left our borders wide open since 9-11? Chimpy did.
Comment by Tom3 — March 19, 2007 @ 10:36 am
And there’s a huge illegal Irish immigrant problem in big cities but they look like us so nobody cares.
Bush certainly seems to like his open borders. It helped the Republicans keep minimum wages down and guarantees virtually slave labor to corporate farmers and related industries.
I haven’t seen one illegal immigrant raid on a workplace since Bill Clinton left office. But I’m sure this must in some way be Clinton’s fault too.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:54 am#71 You are calling the poll a fake because Iraqis are happier now even though they have lost loved ones? It makes perfectly good sense to me. They are fighting the most important war of their lives. The war for Democracy and Freedom often times come at a very heavy cost and obviously the Iraqis realize this. If is baffling that this crowd won’t accept that people are willing to accept death to gain their freedom. This story has repeated itself throughout history and America’s freedom came at a heavy cost as well. The Iraqi’s so the chance for freedom and thus accept that some death is part of the process. Do you folks think that Freedom isn’t worth dying for?
March 19th, 2007 at 10:54 amNo, please answer.
Was America’s freedom not worth it because many had to die for it? Many like to jab at the left for being against Democracy and Freedom, but I have never believed that to be truly true. Are you actually going on record as saying the price of Freedom and Democracy isn’t worth it?
March 19th, 2007 at 10:57 am#72 I am all for the opposition being able to have the opposing view. I do draw the line when it comes to †tackling the contestantsâ€. That is not simply “having a sayâ€, it is assault.
Comment by hacker bob — March 19, 2007 @ 10:50 am
So it’s assault when the police “tackles the contestants” if they are behaving peacefully? And, do you consider an assault to apply pepper spray to the ones demonstrating, if they aren’t engaging in any violent activity?
March 19th, 2007 at 10:57 am#77 Often times freedom and Democracy are not gained without a massive struggle. You think America’s Freedom was easy? How many died again so we are free? HOW MANY? Iraq is no different. These people deserve a chance at freedom and death is sadly part of the cost. Anyone that doesn’t believe freedom and Democracy aren’t worth death isn’t American. Your free life is based on many many dead Americans putting their lives down for it. You disgrace everyone who fought for your freedom with statements like that. I certainly don’t take my freedom and democracy lightly and I understand the massively huge cost to get me freedom. How dare you demand others not have that chance and how dare you devalue my own freedom.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:00 am#77 VebalKint,
March 19th, 2007 at 11:01 amI would guess that R2 has not heard about Maslow’s heirarchy of needs. If basic, bottom level survival needs are not met first, one CANNOT procede to the next level of needs. Wanting freedom is pretty high up on a pyramid that is still being built on the ground level.
The Feds raided meat packing plants out here in the West. They dragged off whole families and detained them without rights in Texas.
And the conditions in these family prisons are horrible.
I bet the CEO of Swift burned up the phone lines to the Oval Office complaining about this. Only his plants were raided, not the competitions. Maybe he didn’t give enough money to the Repukes during the last election.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:02 amJust because you want desparetly for the Iraqis to not like us
Comment by Roger_Roger — March 19, 2007 @ 10:40 am
You started your argument with a FALSE ASSERTION. Your theory then would easily be proven false because your hypothesis is incorrect.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:02 amYou want to try again?
Roger the Repuke is an idiot. We cannot give the Iraqis freedom.
And our troops should not die for it.
Iraqis have to figure this out for themselves, and we should get the hell out and let them.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:03 am#79 This post explains a lot about RR. He is absolutely desperate to impose a Bush-spun storyline on the gruesome reality in Iraq. His every post drips with unsupported assumptions about culture and human behavior that reek of a Western superiority complex and a right wing ideology that is breathtaking for both its arrongance and ignorance. RR fits well my definition of stupidity: he is incapable of learning. No wonder he feels an affinity for Bush.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:03 amComment by chimpeach — March 19, 2007 @ 10:41 am
Idaho State Motto: Do as I say not as I do.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:05 amIt is ironic that idiot Repukes like Roger actually think that the Chimpy regime can bring freedom to the world….while they are taking away OUR freedom.
We no longer have the Bill of Rights or Habeus Corpus. The Feds spy on us without warrants and can seize our property and cash based on an accusation…and we have to prove we are innocent to get it back!
The US is NOT exporting freedom. The “School of the Americas”, where our troops teach other countries how to TORTURE people, is proof of this. Our history is one of overthrowing democratically elected governments in Iran, Chile and elsewhere. Overthrowing democracy is not bringing freedom to those countries!!
March 19th, 2007 at 11:05 amYou think America’s Freedom was easy? How many died again so we are free?
I hope you’re not talking about the American Revolution, and somehow comparing it to Iraq>?
The French didn’t invade the colonies to free them from King George.
Geez.
how on earth is what is going on in Iraq the damn definition of Freedom and Democracy?
March 19th, 2007 at 11:05 amMost reports of the “elections” indicated that each tribe voted lockstep for the candidate their tribal chief told them to.
Up your R2DumbToo. Go build your strawman factory someplace else.
Comment by Evil Spaniard — March 19, 2007 @ 10:57 am
Yes, now show me the instances of it happening. Generally, peacefull protesters are not tackeld or pepper sprayed. But sometimes over zealous police do it, I admit.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:07 amThe poll reported in the London Times IS a fake.
It contradicts every other poll I have seen from Iraq, including a brand new one reported by the BBC today.
And if the Times poll is of Iraqi expats, it is definitely a fake.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:07 amWe need ANOTHER revolution to free us from the tyranny of King George the Turd.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:09 amHow many Americans died to gain out Freedom? Comment by Roger_Roger — March 19, 2007 @ 10:45 am
That right R2dumb2-
March 19th, 2007 at 11:10 amAMERICANS fought for their independence and freedoms. That is how revolutions have to be fought so that the outcome is maintained. The PEOPLE have to want changes and make them. The Iraqis were could have gathered together to fight Hussein the way they are now fighting us.
But they didn’t. So Hussein was a fiercer enemy than the United States, that’s why they didn’t fight him?
#84 Tom3,
March 19th, 2007 at 11:13 amHere is a link to an article in my weekly that is very similar. It also addresses the post earlier by someone that stated that it is not all about Mexicans. These are just people who have no jobs, no options in the countries they are from. Corporations and businesses are the ones that keep offering them something better here. That and what used to be a tolerant and diverse country where ideals could be made reality and dreams could come true if you just worked hard enough. Survival is a pretty big motivator. Thiving is the carrot that is just out of reach.
72. Comment by hacker bob — March 19, 2007 @ 10:50 am
Apparently you want to split hairs, or is that something you learned in fundamentalist church where you believe in the literal translation of the Bible and apparently everything else.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:15 amNot one of you is willing to answer my question I see. That is very gutless of you folks. Is a discussion about Freedom and Democracy off limits here or what? You can attack me all you want but it is meaningless if you fail to engage me on the topic. I, alone with most every person on earth, believes that Freedom and Democracy are worth dying for. No, I haven’t forgoten about Maslow’s heirarchy. What you fail to see is that in the most important war of these folks lives, many of those things get wrapped into the war. The few that are fighting to keep freedom and Democracy away from these people attempt to take away security, food, water, etc. in an attempt to dissuade them from continuing the fight. What I don’t understand is how you feel they should stop the fight and accept no freedom and no democracy. #87 Even goes so far as to assume we Americans are different then others. #87 Is assuming the other people in this world are against Freedom which is laughable at best. #87 Are you personally against Democracy and Freedom?
It was never a question as to whether they wanted their freedom. Logic tells us they want it. The question is whether we are helping or hurting them in that struggle at this point. The poll shows they still value and ask for our help.
Again, was the cost of American freedom not worth it? Please answer that as it tells alot.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:16 amWhoa, the 5000 Iraqis polled are not actually IN Iraq?
That poll is meaningless then.
Comment by Tom3 — March 19, 2007 @ 10:50 am
Although the poll is obviously meaningless I was pointing out that the article never stated where or from exactly whom the data was gathered.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:17 amRather convenient for the Murdoch bunch.
#90 Of course Iraq is not Free yet or the war would be over and won. They are still very much in the middle of the most important war of their lives. Freedom and Democracy isn’t gained over night. If you feel we need to change policy to help speed up the transition and the victory for freedom, I am all ears. I have even stated that I am game for the idea of leaving Iraq if someone can prove that it will actually be a net gain for the Iraqi people in their struggle for Freedom. The only thing important at this point is providing the Iraqis with the Freedom, Democracy, and Security they deserve. How that is accomplished I don’t care,a s long as it is. I think many people have different views and strategies on how to accomplish this but I hope no one in America is advocating against Democracy and Freedom.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:20 amAnyone that doesn’t believe freedom and Democracy aren’t worth death isn’t American. Comment by Roger_Roger
Of course, the President believes in sacrifice, but when it comes to rolling back a massive tax cut for the wealthy to help pay for the Iraq War, that’s where he draws the line. Bush’s Policy: No sacrifice is too great for freedom, as long as it’s other people who are sacrificing.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:21 amComment by shane — March 19, 2007 @ 11:15 am
Here is the hair I am splitting.
You said that the people that think the groups are “embarrassing, idiotic jackasses” should have a voice too. I agree. What I was disagreeing with is TripMaster Monkey’s opinion that they should start tackleing contestants.
Do you think a violent reaction is the best course of action?
BTW, I don’t attend a fundamentalist church, or any other church for that matter. And I know the the Bible is not literal. But neither of those are the topic.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:22 amI, alone with most every person on earth, believes that Freedom and Democracy are worth dying for
What the hell? I, alone…….with most every person on earth
March 19th, 2007 at 11:27 amBwahahaha
Why don’t you go find some of those people and post your precious thoughts to them?
It is creepy how the left is so eager to fight to allow illegals to keep invading America.
Comment by Roger_Roger — March 19, 2007 @ 10:51 am
Again R2 a fake argument based on a FALSE assertion. How about not speaking to us like we’re all of like mind on every issue and declaring issues to be true which are clearly not the opinions of most here.
Also you say at one point “I’m willing to take the hit…” Well that’s well and good, many of us are. But why are you telling us? Why don’t you contact your White House and congress members and tell them about it.
That’s what Progressives do to get changes made. We discuss here and then go take action.
You argue here, trying to disrupt discussions that might lead to positive changes, and then act like you care about making improvements in illegal immigration. If you in fact wanted to make change you would talk to your like-minded voters and work with them to make change.
I guess what I’m saying is your full of shit.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:28 am#98 Shane, The Times of London poll was of Iraqis living in Iraq:
Results are based on face-to-face interviews amongst a nationally representative sample of 5,019 adults aged 18 years + throughout Iraq.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:30 am•The standard margin of error on the sample size is +1.4%
•The methodology uses multi-stage random probability sampling and covers every one of the eighteen governorates within Iraq.
•Interviews conducted 10th – 22nd February 2007.
“I hope no one in America is advocating against Democracy and Freedom.” Comment by Roger_Roger
I think Democracy and Freedom in Iraq are terrific goals. Of course, what price are we willing to pay? We were told the Iraq War would “pay for itself.” Now it looks like the cost to the American taxpayers will hit $1 trillion. Is that too high a price, given the problems we face at home? If not, is $2 trillion too high? There must be a number where we say: “this no longer is the best way to use our limited resources.” I, for one, would rather have seen this $1,000,000,000,000+ go towards solving our education and health care problems.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:30 amDifferent poll resultshere.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:31 amDeeply, deeply, deeply stupid.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:33 amNow that Exley is here to defend the poll we can be CERTAIN it is a hoax.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:34 amHere are the details of the Times poll:
http://www.opinion.co.uk/ Newsroom_details.aspx?NewsId=67
http://www.opinion.co.uk/Documents/FINALTables.pdf
March 19th, 2007 at 11:34 amThanks for the comments TPers. Off to Red University. LOL
March 19th, 2007 at 11:35 am#103 So your saying this crowd, along with the Dems in congress are actively fighting to rid this country of illegals? Seems counter to what TP posts so often as well as what many on this very thread have stated. To me, it is wierd that it is a political issue. I would think all Americans and both parties would realize that we cannot allow illegal aliens to steal the jobs of our por and deflate wages. That helps no American other then “Big Business”. The only winner is Big Business yet TP and many Dems seem to step away from taking any real action to completely stop them.
Personally, we should actively search out and fine (in a huge way) any company hiring even 1 illegal. We should build and guard a wall across the entire Texas/Mexican border and we should actively hunt for any illegal in America. We need new laws as well. When our police pull someone over, they should have the right and the mandate to turn them over to the proper authority to export them out of the country the very first chance we get.
To me, it is wrong and confusing to See Bush want to provide illegals with a pardon for their crime and even let them stay here continuing to take away American jobs. The Dems seem to have no problem with this plan. Furthermore, I see neither party ready to increase the budget to rid this country of the 11 million plus already here. In this regards, neither party seems to care about Americans.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:36 amMore details of the Times poll:
http://www.opinion.co.uk/Documents/Charts.ppt#1
March 19th, 2007 at 11:37 am#106 Well, J-rock, those poll results may be different, but look who conducted the poll: USA Today. We know those left wing moonbats at USAT hate America, and wouldn’t ever give up their sissy liberal lives in defense of FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY. In fact, they hate FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY at USAT!
/sarcasm off
March 19th, 2007 at 11:38 am#105 I personally think in hindsight the Iraq war was wrong. The problem is we broke it so we are responsible to fix it. The $$ cost isn’t the issue at this point as human freedom is worth more then any dollar amount. We created this situation so we shouldn’t leave it broken IMO. If the Iraqi’s see value in us staying and see value in us continuing to help them, who are we to refuse at this point?
March 19th, 2007 at 11:38 amComment by hacker bob — March 19, 2007 @ 11:22 am
Sheesh, hacker bob…looking back through this thread, it seems you’ve certainly gotten a lot of mileage out of my flippant suggestion that protesters should dress up as Border Militia members and tackle the contestants. Never mind that 99% of all college students would view it as all in good fun (especially those who are running an obstacle course that involves crawling through holes in fences)…your first reaction is ’silencing free speech with assault’??? Sad, really.
Well, hacker bob, if you truly have issues with ‘tackling, here’s a few, less ‘violent’ suggestions for the protest:
Are these options sufficiently ‘anti-violent’ for you, bob?
March 19th, 2007 at 11:39 amSo Exley, why does this Murdoch-commissioned “poll” disagree so starkly with other major polls recently taken in Iraq?
Never mind, I think I just answered my own question.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:40 amThe $$ cost isn’t the issue at this point as human freedom is worth more then any dollar amount. Comment by Roger_Roger
So, at this point, we should stay in Iraq until Iraqis have “democracy and freedom” regardless of the cost? That’s certainly a fair position; one with which I disagree (the old “throwing good money after bad” analogy seems appropriate.
However, I wonder why Bush continues to exclude the Iraq War costs from his budgets and why he hasn’t even attempted to pay for the costs of the war but instead is just pushing 100% of the cost into the deficit for future administrations to deal with. If this is such a noble cause, why doesn’t Bush ask us to pay for it?
March 19th, 2007 at 11:47 am#113 VerbalKint
Shamed, I abjectly withdraw my execrable, SP liberal libtard poll results.
;)
March 19th, 2007 at 11:48 am#97 Roger_Roger
This is from that same article about the poll. What do you make of it:
“One question showed the sharp divide in attitudes towards the continued presence of foreign troops in Iraq. Some 53% of Iraqis nationwide agree that the security situation will improve in the weeks after a withdrawal by international forces, while only 26% think it will get worse.”
It sounds to me like the Iraqis don’t agree with you or Bush about the need to stay there. Or how about this:
“Not surprisingly, the divisions in Iraqi society were reflected in statistics — Sunnis were more likely to back the previous Ba’athist regime (51%) while the Shi’ites (66%) preferred the Maliki government.”
A slim majority of Sunnis prefer the Saddam regime to the present one. The Shiites, as expected, prefer the Shiite-led government. And here’s an interesting question and set of results:
“President George Bush has announced he will be sending 20,000+ troops to Iraq in the coming months. Why do you think he is doing this?”
To bring security and stability back to Iraq - 33%
To attack neighboring countries (e.g. Iran, Syria) - 22%
To take out the al-Maliki government - 9%
To increase their troops and take control of Iraq - 5%
Don’t know/Refused - 18%
You should take a look at the entire poll results and the methodology before you start celebrating any kind of a victory over ‘glum’ reporting.
Opinion Research Business Iraq poll results - PDF
March 19th, 2007 at 12:04 pm#116, Well, VerbalKint,
The shallow, smart-aleck response would be to say that USA TODAY, ABC News, the British Broadcasting Corp. and ARD are, of course, members of the liberal media and have created a phony poll….But, as I said, to dismiss the poll so easily would be as shallow as your dismissal of the Times poll for the sole reason that it appears in a Murdoch-owned paper.
As I said yesterday, when I posted the Times of London poll on another thread, I am skeptical that any poll coming out of Iraq these days can ascertain a truly accurate picture of Iraqi attitudes. I think there are germs of truth in both polls.
I would, however, also suggest that it is quite possible that you underestimate just how horrific life in Iraq was under Saddam Hussein.
Even the USA Today/ABC poll you cite shows only a 7% difference between those who says life was better before Saddam was deposed and those who say life is worse now. (”In the USA TODAY/ABC News Poll, Iraqis by 43%-36% said life was better than before the invasion.”)
March 19th, 2007 at 12:04 pmThe US is NOT exporting freedom. […] Overthrowing democracy is not bringing freedom to those countries!!
Comment by Tom3
The thing is the ignorant mass of people which has been indoctrinated with a heavy dose of nationalistic propaganda, believe just the opposite. They will believe anything their government throw at them. For example 9/11. Whatever the government says must be the explanation for what happened. Yep.
March 19th, 2007 at 12:04 pmAnd here is Juan, right of cue, with his “9/11 was an inside job by the Mossad (or CIA) (Lockheed Martin)(or whoever…Juan has been quite clear about what he truly believes)” conspiracy theory.
March 19th, 2007 at 12:10 pmPeople want food, shelter, and security first. People want to live in a place where they don’t have to fear death every time they leave their house. People want to live in a place where their kids can go outside, can go to school, can play. Freedom means nothing in the chaos that is Iraq.
Comment by VerbalKint — March 19, 2007 @ 10:54 am
very good points…
March 19th, 2007 at 12:13 pmironic that it is all those things that have USofAmericans so complacant about their own freedoms and liberties…
they can’t see what is really happening because they are still able to drive down to the mall and watch the teevee and eat to obesity………….etc.
…
Exley, there’s ample evidence that tears the administration’s “official” 9/11 conspiracy theory to shreds. If you want to dispute Juan’s conclusions regarding 9/11, kindly do it with facts and evidence, rather than with your usual insults and invective.
March 19th, 2007 at 12:15 pm#116, Well, VerbalKint,
Even the USA Today/ABC poll you cite […]
Comment by Exley
Hey, bitch.
That was MY citation.
Get your moonbats straight.
:-P
March 19th, 2007 at 12:15 pm#118
Sorry to be repetitious with the links to the poll. I was busy reading the thing while Exley was posting the links. I would bear in mind that sampling across the country and averaging, even if they break down by “rural” and “urban” areas, can dilute the results.
March 19th, 2007 at 12:16 pmThe Bush WH is clearly relying on semantics for its position that, “The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States…”. I’d like to see them try to remove the representatives and senators of Kentucky, Virginia, Pennsylvania and Massachusetts, which are commonwealths and not states. There is no mention in the constitution of commonwealths.
March 19th, 2007 at 12:16 pmExley, what is your own estimate of Iraqi civilian casualties since the Bush gang unleashed chaos?
I put it at half a million.
I think you underestimate how bad it really is in Iraq.
By the way, polls aside, claiming that we are “less bad” than Saddam isn’t much to crow about.
March 19th, 2007 at 12:16 pm“I think you underestimate how bad it really is in Iraq.”
Quite the opposite, VerbalKint. I am quite certain that Al Qaeda and the “insurgents” and Shiite militias (both terrorists) have made life a living hell in much of Iraq.
March 19th, 2007 at 12:21 pmJuan has been quite clear about what he truly believes
Comment by Exley
Please, tell me who I think pulled that out?
I know it must hurt you. This event is the sole reason of your pain. But that pain should bring the best of you, not the worst. Again, you should demand your government, you know, the people you pay for serving you, to bring all the responsible people to justice. Have you done that? Are you patriotic enough besides mumbling God Bless America every time your faith begins to crumble? No, you believe your government after Bush himself opposed!!! to an investigation of the events. Incredible. BTW, you are a New Yorker, have you seen the BBC live broadcast video of the 9/11 sucess, where they informed that WTC 7 has fallen, 7 minutes before it actually falls? You must recognize the building. Remember, the only thing worse than not knowing the truth, is knowing the truth.
March 19th, 2007 at 12:24 pmAgain, was the cost of American freedom not worth it? Please answer that as it tells alot.
Comment by Roger_Roger — March 19, 2007 @ 11:16 am
Yes it was worth the cost to AMERICANS for American freedoms. Then wouldn’t the cost of another terrorist attack be worth it to maintain rights to privacy and habeus corpus.
And if freedom is what we are fighting for why are we not in Sub Saharan Africa where many more atrocities occur than in Iraq. Because there is no oil there and oil contracts is why we are in Iraq.
And had Spain and France needed oil during the revolutionary war they would have been here fighting for what we had against England. But because we were fighting for freedom nobody helped us fight. And precisely because our ancestors died for these freedoms, why are you not indignant that these rights have been taken away?
March 19th, 2007 at 12:27 pmJuan has been quite clear about what he truly believes
Whoops…I dropped a word there. That was supposed to be “Juan has NEVER been quite clear about what he truly believes.”
Sorry about that. Now that we have cleared that up, please tell us. Juan. Who do you think was responsible for the 9/11 attacks and what was their motive?
March 19th, 2007 at 12:29 pmOften times freedom and Democracy are not gained without a massive struggle
How dare you demand others not have that chance and how dare you devalue my own freedom.
Comment by Roger_Roger — March 19, 2007 @ 11:00 am
Where’s your indignation over the Administration’s devaluing your freedom.
Blah, blah, blah bullshit.
The brave soldiers who fought to give you your freedom here did not do it so some spoiled rich kid and his cronies could take it all away from Americans today. THAT doesn’t piss you off though.
FreedomS here were won with a BANG by the AMERICAN PEOPLE and they are GOING OUT WITH THE WHIMPER OF NEOCON SISSIES LIKE YOU.
March 19th, 2007 at 12:33 pmWho do you think was responsible for the 9/11 attacks and what was their motive?
Comment by Exley
Nevermind me. Im not a US citizen. Tell me, buddy, do you think that the official explanation is free of doubts? There are people here as american as you are that believe the 9/11 commission report is faulty in several ways. Why would they do that? And Im asking you for real, adult answers, not some recycled propaganda.
March 19th, 2007 at 12:37 pm