ThinkFast: March 19, 2007
ThinkFast: March 19, 2007
18: The percentage of Iraqis that have confidence in U.S.-led coalition troops as the war enters its fifth year today. Six in 10 Iraqis say their lives are going badly, and only one-third expect things to improve in the next year. Nearly 90 percent “say they live in fear that the violence ravaging their country will strike themselves and the people with whom they live.”
Almost two years before the FBI publicly admitted this month that “it had ignored its own rules when demanding telephone and financial records about private citizens, a top official in that program warned the bureau about widespread lapses.”
Former U.S. Attorney David Iglesias, who was fired “after Republican complaints that he neglected to prosecute voter fraud,” had been “heralded for his expertise in that area by the Justice Department, which twice selected him to train other federal prosecutors to pursue election crimes.”
Last week, the White House pressured the Office of Management and Budget to withhold earmark data from the public. OMB Director Rob Portman said privately last week: “My hands are tied” due to directives from the White House. Sen. Tom Coburn (R-OK) remarked, “I think the American people should be very disappointed.”
A new twist on the “illegal immigration hunts” sponsored by right-wing college groups: A Boise State University student group is “promoting a speech about immigration with a ‘food stamp drawing’ that requires climbing through a hole in a fence and offering fake identification for a shot at winning dinner at a local Mexican restaurant.”
“Censorship issues return front and center to Congress today” when the House oversight committee resumes its inquiry into reported Bush administration interference in federal climate science,” featuring testimony by infamous Bush official turned Exxon lobbyist Philip Cooney.
The military is ill-prepared to fight a major ground conflict elsewhere. “We have a strategy right now that is outstripping the means to execute it,” Army Chief of Staff Peter Schoomaker told Congress last week. Describing the situation as “stark,” Army Vice Chief of Staff Richard Cody added, “The readiness continues to decline of our next-to-deploy forces.”
The White House has declared its opposition to a bill that would give Washington, DC its first full seat in the House of Representatives, “saying it is unconstitutional, and a key Senate supporter said such concerns could kill the measure.”
And finally: The long-awaited Simpsons movie debut this summer will reveal what state the family’s fictitious Springfield residence is a part of. But Rep. Peter DeFazio (D-OR) already knows. “I think they live just down the street from me, actually,” he said. “I live in Springfield.”
What did we miss? Let us know in the comments section.
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Time for us all to learn the ugly truth about earmarks – the sycophantic OMB is on the hot seat this week. Let it fly! Let the ugly truth be known so we can comprehend it, learn from it, and move beyond it all. The longer this administration remains in power, the more the scandals and the greater the ruin….Bush’s administration is “tainted” by the multitude of scandals so perhaps it’s best that we have two more years for all of the ugly truths to be outed. By then, he will thoroughly deserve the moniker as “the worst president ever in the history of this country” – it will undisputed by then. Besides, this man’s administration will surely TANK any Republican ever hoping to enter political office by then….so I say…..DON’T IMPEACH – Impeachment is the easy way out for this gang of mercenaries….Impeachment is far too good for criminals who deserve to be brought to justice and do jail time.
And, let’s open WIDE this “illegal wiretapping” a full two years before FBI admitted to breaking their own rules with regard to our constitutional rights….
Let’s put bets on which political enemies were wiretapped, shall we?
March 19th, 2007 at 9:15 amBush is effectively “stripping our military” each day which will render this country absolutely impotent to adress any national crisis in the future. This marauding must stop.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:16 amThe military is ill-prepared to fight a major ground conflict elsewhere. “We have a strategy right now that is outstripping the means to execute it,†Army Chief of Staff Peter Schoomaker told Congress last week. Describing the situation as “stark,†Army Vice Chief of Staff Richard Cody added, “The readiness continues to decline of our next-to-deploy forces.â€
We’ll never have a general draft in this country again, as such a draft will require the ruling elite to take measures to ensure they and their progeny don’t have to fight. The economic draft we currently have in effect works much better for them in this regard, as the elite are excluded by default.
Given the above, we can expect the economy to deteriorate further as the neocons remain in power, in order to provide more disenfranchised youths with no other option than to sign up to be more meat for the grinder.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:18 amThere is good news though. Today is the fourth anniversary of the Iraq War.
Cheney finally got his flowers.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:20 amComment by DoVoyeur — March 19, 2007 @ 9:17 am
Two things, DoVoyeur:
One, did you have a point in mind behind posting that revolting exchange between Chimpy and Al-Mahdi? If so, please elucidate.
Two, the link to your reprehensible ‘voyeur’ site shouldn’t even be posted once, let alone twice. Take your link-whoring elsewhere.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:23 amDoVoyeur: Oversimplification has never been attributed to you, that’s certain! Maybe you should simply just post the url to make it easier on posters to comprehend what you are trying to say?
March 19th, 2007 at 9:26 amTrip Master: I’m sitting here chuckling to myself because I haven’t seen this amount of nonsense posted on these threads ever! I’m scratching my head regarding what DeVoyeur is trying to say & what language he is speaking because it certainly isn’t English. It’s confounding and pretty comical.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:28 amSen. Tom Coburn (R-OK) remarked, “I think the American people should be very disappointed.â€
This is true of EVERYTHING that has been done by the Bush White House in the past six years.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:29 amAha! I get it now….DeVoyeur is a “link whore” – that makes perfect sense. We’ll just scroll past these ridiculous nonsensical ramblings now and ignore them. Clearly, they make no logical sense and are not written coherently or articulately enough to understand.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:30 amComment by DoVoyeur — March 19, 2007 @ 9:17 am
This one is definitely living in Mom’s basement.
Beat it, freak.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:31 amA new twist on the ‘illegal immigration hunts†sponsored by right-wing college groups
Why do I get the feeling that this is being orchestrated? Could it be just a coincidence that college Republicans all around the country are suddenly coming up with these anti-immigrant games? It doesn’t surprise me that they’re a bunch of flaming racists, but why are they all coming out of the closet at once? Are they trying to recruit neo-Nazis?
March 19th, 2007 at 9:31 amRegarding the House seat for D.C. I’ll have to agree with the White House’s interpretation on this. The Constitution does not provide a mechanism for giving a seat to D.C., nor to the Territories, for that matter.
If D.C. wants a seat, there will have to be an Amendment passed.
Either that, or redefine the land set aside for the Federal Government to just that which sits underneath Federal Buildings and parks and returning the rest of the land to Maryland, which can then create a Congressional District (or two) out of it.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:32 amveritas,
David Walker, the Comptroller General…
…is (and HAS been) doing a Richard Clark (remember him?)…
…on a budgetary doomsday…
…the deficit is out of control…
…he was out last week saying the next major candidates (and new Pres.)…
…MUST place the budget as one of the top 3 priorities…
…personally I believe he’s being kind about it…
…I think we’re damn near broke…
March 19th, 2007 at 9:34 amToday is the 4th anniversary of this horrendous war and the Prez invites the Gators to the WH in order to pretend that everything is going so swimmingly that he can “hang out with Champions”. What a transparent charade!
I’m wondering is Dubya will insert himself on one of the Gator collectible “cards” which acccompanied their programs during their championship year now? He did it with his Texas Rangers as though he knew something about sports – hah!
His affinity for game playing was illustrated in that ridiculously juvenile “deck of cards” game he had with the hijackers – appalling!
March 19th, 2007 at 9:34 amNo doubt he will have an official “championship card” made up with his ugly mug on it and insert it in either Chris Leak’s place or Urban Meyer’s place.
Two wrongs make a right.
Comment by Jake
March 19th, 2007 at 9:35 amTwo wrongs make a right.
Comment by Patrick1
March 19th, 2007 at 9:36 amLet’s hope Sen. Leahy does to Big Dick what Big Dick told Leahy to do to himself.
KKKarl, you may not get away with your ‘Lord High Commander & Brains of the Bushlickers’ disappearing act this time.
Wouldn’t it be nice to see this jerkoff actually held accountable for something after 6 years of lies, innuendo & malicious fabrications?
Meanwhile, we have the extraordinary piece of shit, Tom DeLay, on Meet the Press, stating that anyone demonstrating against the war last weekend are not Patriots. Methinks, Bugman does not understand what a true Patriot is.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:37 amWhy is anyone interested in what this insane, corrupt turd thinks?
Remember, the 1st US Attorney fired was investigating Abramhoff.
Comment by chimpeach — March 19, 2007 @ 9:31 am
Actually, they are anti-ILLEGAL immigrant games. Do you think that illegal immigration is not a problem in the US?
I agree their method is stupid, they should include more than hispanics or it comes across as being racist.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:42 amAlmost two years before the FBI publicly admitted this month that “it had ignored its own rules when demanding telephone and financial records about private citizens, a top official in that program warned the bureau about widespread lapses.â€
What the trolls and the 30%ers don’t get is the full application of Bush’s statement, “You’re either with us, or with the enemy.”
If you oppose Bush in any way, you’re with the enemy. Bush doesn’t just want to know if you’re calling bin Laden. He wants to know if you’re calling Cindy Sheehan. He wants to know if you’re part of MoveOn, or the Quakers.
As long as Impeachment remains off the table, everything that is being done is a diversion to keep us placated while those in power keep raking in the money. Libby, Gonzalez, various Generals, they can all be thrown off the bus, much to our delight, as those behind the scenes still pull the strings of the Government.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:42 amWhenever I read a sickening story like the one here about the students at Boise State University, I think back to Tom “Bug Boy” DeLay’s speech at the 2000 Republic Party convention. It was there, from the podium, that Bug Boy declared “We (Repugnicans) are the party of god.”
Although now an agnostic, I was confirmed in the Lutheran church in junior high. I dont ever remember the “god” we studied then being as mean and hateful as the “god” the Republic Party supports. These students at Boise State University certainly appear to be headed for some leadership positions in the Republic Party hierarchy in the very near future.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:42 amA new twist on the “illegal immigration hunts†sponsored by right-wing college groups: A Boise State University student group is “promoting a speech about immigration with a ‘food stamp drawing’ that requires climbing through a hole in a fence and offering fake identification for a shot at winning dinner at a local Mexican restaurant.â€
OMG Can I be any more embarassed! This is the university I am attending. I knew we lived ina backwards state, but thought that the university was the one place that more liberal leaning thinking could take place. This makes me want to puke. Not the kind of national attention to be proud of you idiots! AARRRRRGGGG
March 19th, 2007 at 9:44 amHacker Bob, what is it about reinforcing negative stereotypes that you approve of?
March 19th, 2007 at 9:46 amThe White House has declared its opposition to a bill that would give Washington, DC its first full seat in the House of Representatives,
Well, sounds like a good idea to me. Of course, at this point, anything the White House opposes sounds like a good idea…
“saying it is unconstitutional
Oh, now that is RICH. This administration, which, through its ceaseless attacks on the Constitution, has done more damage to this country than any foreign power could ever dream of doing, has the unmitigated gall to oppose something because it is allegedly unconstitutional???
My irony-meter is shooting sparks and igniting the carpet. I’ll be back in a bit.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:47 amWhat the trolls and the 30%ers don’t get is…
Comment by Briseadh na Faire — March 19, 2007 @ 9:42 am
There are a lot of things they don’t get. They share something in common with Bush: an inability to learn. This is the definition of stupidity.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:47 am18: The percentage of Iraqis [...]
well, this information certainly is at odds with a “poll” that exlies put forth yesterday… from the ’sunday times’, no less…
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article1530762.ece
imagine that…
March 19th, 2007 at 9:48 amBluedahlia sez:
I’m so sorry, BD…but consider that you’re in a prime position to protest this idiotic display.
My personal choice would to gather a group of like-minded citizens to dress up as Border Militia members and disrupt the proceedings by tackling the contestants and acting as much like moronic hicks as possible. ^_^
March 19th, 2007 at 9:52 amComment by TheToonGuy — March 19, 2007 @ 9:46 am
What is it about allowing illegal activity that you approve of?
Illegal immigrationis a problem in the US, is it not? It is not just Hispanics (Mexicans) that come to this country illegally. The focus should not ONLY be on hispanics. That is my point. They should be focused on all illegal immigration instead of a select group.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:52 amYeah katy, the timesonline poll indicates that most Iraqis are just fine, prefer the current situation to living under Sadaam, don’t mind a couple of hours of electricity each day, enjoy having their kids miss getting an education because they’re too afraid to let them travel back and forth to school….Hmmmm.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:55 amMy personal choice would to gather a group of like-minded citizens to dress up as Border Militia members and disrupt the proceedings by tackling the contestants and acting as much like moronic hicks as possible. ^_^
Comment by TripMaster Monkey — March 19, 2007 @ 9:52 am
Silence free speech with violent action. That is a really good approach.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:56 amKARACHI, Pakistan (Reuters) — The lawyer of an Islamist militant sentenced to hang in Pakistan for his role in the 2002 murder of U.S. reporter Daniel Pearl said on Monday he would use a top al Qaeda militant’s confession to support an appeal.
British-born Ahmed Omar Saeed Sheikh, or Sheikh Omar, was sentenced to death in 2002 for the kidnapping and murder of the Wall Street Journal reporter, who was abducted while researching a story on Islamic militants.
But Khalid Sheikh Mohammed — the self-proclaimed mastermind of the September 11, 2001, attacks on the United States — said in a confession released by U.S. authorities last week that he killed Pearl.
whats going on here ???????????????
March 19th, 2007 at 9:58 am#21 Ben Dover
March 19th, 2007 at 9:58 amPlease, please do not think that all or even a majority of us students think or believe what a loud and viscious minority of fringe of students do. They do not speak for me or for many there, I know. These same bootsteppers protest “The Vagina Monologues” every year and recently are dictating policy about how to choose speakers that come to the university. (Didn’t like a sold out Al Gore presentation) We live in a red state, so the administration feels obligated to let these pukes have a voice. Completely makes me sick.
GREAT IDEA Tripmaster!!! You should have been here in DC with me Saturday walking up and down in front of the freeper jackals by the Vietnam Vets memorial. I pissed one of them off by saying “Ditto Rush” and he lunged at me – conveniently into the arms of a waiting US Park Police officer.
But you are right. The student at Boise State needs to take it to the streets. Power to the people.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:59 amComment by Bluedahlia — March 19, 2007 @ 9:58 am
Actually, the Constitution allows them to have a voice.
March 19th, 2007 at 9:59 am#34
March 19th, 2007 at 10:02 amDid I state otherwise?
#26, the Times Online poll is simply amazing. 25% of families have had a member murdered, and 33% have had a member kidnapped, and most of them describe life as better than under Saddam? Murdoch’s gang must be getting very desperate, judging from how bold and obvious their lies have become. Do you think Murdoch might be worried about losing his broadcast licenses in the U.S. if the Bush regime is toppled?
March 19th, 2007 at 10:02 am#32. Not at all. My comments were directed at the Hitler youth there who are behaving like sea cucumbers. The specific comment about them being in line for leadership positions in the Republic Party should have shown I was focused on them, not all of you. You go give them hell and don’t back down.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:02 amYes, you did. It is not a matter of the administration feeling obligated, it is a matter that teh administration IS obligated to let the pukes have a voice.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:05 amComment by hacker bob
Was that meant to be an answer to my question? Do you favor or oppose the display of reinforcing negative stereotypes?
March 19th, 2007 at 10:05 am4. Actually as you can see by Bush and Cheney it was possible to keep the ruling elite out of the military even with a draft. In fact people who were upper middle class could many time keep kids out. And intellectual like Bill Clinton would be contacted by their senators to stay out which kind of makes sense. Although it doesn’t make too much sense to send the brightest people into combat certainly they could have contributed in many ways.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:07 amBut people shouldn’t deceive themselves into thinking that the draft equalizes the military because Viet Nam showed that wasn’t so.
You know, I didn’t even know about this until I read about it on TP. I quit reading the student paper here becuase the president of the young republliscums used to be editor and the stories were out of this world biased. I am contacting our cultural center and finding out what kind of protests are being made. I will be there.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:13 amComment by TheToonGuy — March 19, 2007 @ 10:05 am
I oppose reinforcing negative stereotypes. I guess you missed the part where I said their method was stupid.
Now, what is wrong with them speaking out against illegal immigration or having a speaker come talk about the problems of illegal immigration?
And
Do you approve of illegal immigration?
March 19th, 2007 at 10:14 amMr. President, the Congress, the administration — for all the sacrifices, effort, assistance given to help my country.
Comment by DoVoyeur — March 19, 2007 @ 9:17 am
Now Mr. President if you would only do something for the citizens of THIS country we might appreciate you to. How about giving us back our civil liberties, or taking care of our injured soldiers, or looking into why people of Hurricane Katrina are still being hung out to dry. But we understand you’re busy cashing that blank check you got for stealing that oil out from under the Iraqi people and getting those great contracts for your friends, the oil companies.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:14 am#38
March 19th, 2007 at 10:15 amMy mistake, let me re-word it so that I am clearer about my meaning. We live in a red state, so the administration feels obligated to let these pukes dictate policy to them.
Again,
The College Dems should be on the other side of the fence, offering the people that go through the fence a job for shit pay and slave workling conditions, and laughing about how much money they get to take to the bank.
This sh*t cuts both ways.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:17 amshane sez:
Granted, shane. My aim was not to portray a general draft as a solution to the inequalities of American life. It clearly isn’t, as the examples you cited (Clinton, Bush, Cheney, etc.) show.
However, while the draft was on, these people needed to take positive action to ensure they would not have to serve…Bush with his National Guard non-service, Cheney with his deferrments, etc., etc. These actions are on the record, and can be brought up in the future. However, under an ‘all-volunteer’ army (read: economic draft), the elite don’t have to provide even minimal justification for not serving.
In short, the economic draft is harmful not merely because it keeps the elite safe from service (as you pointed out, the elite will always find ways to avoid service)…it is more harmful because it perpetuates the formation of a caste system in this country: the entitled, who run the country from their ivory towers, and the proles, who must do the work of the society, including executing the violent foreign policy of the elite. The really terrible thing about the economic draft is that it institutionalizes such an outlook.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:18 amAre they trying to recruit neo-Nazis?
Comment by chimpeach — March 19, 2007 @ 9:31 am
No doubt they are trying to recruit for those militia groups they so love. I’d bet Rove has his fingerprints on this one too. With all the soldiers in Iraq they’d probably use these militia groups to round people up for that work camp the administration is hiding.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:18 amThere is a fairly easy solution to stopping illegal immigration, and that is to penalize those providing jobs to them so severely, they don’t have a business to run anymore.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:19 amAs the supply of jobs disappears, so will the illegal immigration problem.
Bob, how bout it?
The long-awaited Simpsons movie debut this summer will reveal what state the family’s fictitious Springfield residence is a part of.
This is ridiculous. Everyone knows they live in the State of Hilarity.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:20 amI agree their method is stupid
Comment by hacker bob — March 19, 2007 @ 9:52 am
Well there’s one legitimate point in your post. Oh and the end doesn’t always justify the means. And by the way immigrants are HUMANS.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:22 am#10 veritas
Aha! I get it now….DeVoyeur is a “link whoreâ€
That was my take on it, too. It’s the equivalent of the spam messages I get that have something topical in the subject line–like it was cut and pasted right out of the middle of a Newsweek article about Iraq– but the body of the message is just another Viagra ad. I won’t bother going to DoVoyeur’s site. I doubt that he’s peddling anything I’d be interested in buying.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:24 amhacker bob sez:
I’m curious, hacker bob…what are the problems of illegal immigration? Really.
You do know that if every illegal immigrant was deported, or even paid minimum wage, our economy would implode, right?
(Note: I am not attempting to defend illegal immigration here…I am merely pointing out that the problem is far more complex than these young Republicans are admitting, leading me to believe that this stunt they’re pulling is just another distraction issue, designed to take our attention away from the truly important issues of the day…issues the young Republicans would rather we not address.)
March 19th, 2007 at 10:24 amMOST Iraqis believe life is better for them now than it was under Saddam Hussein, according to a British opinion poll published today.
The survey of more than 5,000 Iraqis found the majority optimistic despite their suffering in sectarian violence since the American-led invasion four years ago this week.
One in four Iraqis has had a family member murdered, says the poll by Opinion Research Business. In Baghdad, the capital, one in four has had a relative kidnapped and one in three said members of their family had fled abroad. But when asked whether they preferred life under Saddam, the dictator who was executed last December, or under Nouri al-Maliki, the prime minister, most replied that things were better for them today.
Only 27% think there is a civil war in Iraq, compared with 61% who do not, according to the survey carried out last month.
By a majority of two to one, Iraqis believe military operations now under way will disarm all militias. More than half say security will improve after a withdrawal of multinational forces.
Margaret Beckett, the foreign secretary, said the findings pointed to progress. “There is no widespread violence in the four southern provinces and the fact that the picture is more complex than the stereotype usually portrayed is reflected in today’s poll,†she said.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/iraq/article1530762.ece
You can try and BS this all you want. Most Iraqi’s are happier now and most don’t think they are in a Civil War. This article gives me even more confidence that we are in fact doing the right thing. We make this mess and we should clean it up. Even the Iraqi people are confident in us and want us to stay. How could anyone walk away from these people in their time of need when they are asking our help with a problem we caused? Walking away right now would be completely incorrect and heartless IMO.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:28 amHacker Bob,
To forcefully criticize rude, racist, hateful and stupid behavior by college Republicans is NOT suppression of free speech
The government has no right to dictate what may or may not be said. However, we, as citizens, have a responsibility to expose and denounce this sort of anti-social behavior.
It is time for Republicans to say why this behavior is not symptomatic of the Republican party’s overall mindframe.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:28 am#19 hacker bob
Actually, they are anti-ILLEGAL immigrant games. Do you think that illegal immigration is not a problem in the US?
Do you think they’re concerned about anything besides the racial or ethnic attributes of immigrants, legal or illegal? This isn’t about the problems of illegal immigration. It’s about targeting minorities and being able to do it under the cover of “but they’re breaking the law.”
I agree their method is stupid
Then you got the point.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:30 amActually, the Constitution allows them to have a voice.
Comment by hacker bob — March 19, 2007 @ 9:59 am
And it also allows the people who think they are embarrassing, idiotic jackasses to have a voice. You get what you play for.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:32 am#54 Does it matter what there reasons are? Getting rid of illegal immigrants is the primary focus. Who cares what the reason is as there are alot of them. Does it matter if their primary concern is the fact that they deflate pay checks and steal American jobs from the poor or if they simply don’t like other countries illegally crossing our borders in an attempt to take over our country? Either way they are correct to promote the idea of the USA getting rid of them all.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:33 am#30 Silence free speech with violent action. That is a really good approach.
Comment by hacker bob — March 19, 2007 @ 9:56 am
*cough* hate speech *cough*
March 19th, 2007 at 10:34 am#51 RR, the poll is a hoax.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:36 amGood point about not all illegal immigrants being Latinos.
I’m seeing a lot of Eastern Europeans now and I doubt they all have green cards. We now have a serious Russian Mafia problem in this country, as bad as the problem we are having with Latino gangs.
The only way to deal with the immigration issue is to keep it color-blind. This isn’t about specific ethnic groups, this is about enforcing the law and that alone.
Who left our borders wide open since 9-11? Chimpy did.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:36 am#55 Does it matter if their primary concern is the fact that they deflate pay checks and steal American jobs from the poor or if they simply don’t like other countries illegally crossing our borders in an attempt to take over our country?
Ermmm… they don’t steal American jobs. American bosses give they the jobs. And American bosses are very happy deflating the paychecks. Full capitalism, remember? So, again, who is responsible?
March 19th, 2007 at 10:37 amSo RR, do you think it makes sense that most Iraqis are happier, despite the fact that one fourth of them have had a family member killed, and one third have had a family member kidnapped? Doesn’t it bother you that this poll is at complete odds with other polls on this issue?
March 19th, 2007 at 10:37 amI think the new Brit poll is a hoax too. Its own numbers belie the assertion it makes that Iraq is improving. When 25% of Iraqis polled have lost a family member and 33% have family who have fled Iraq, that is not a sign that things are improving.
If this poll is indeed a hoax, I would love to see some proof. The fact that it contradicts all the other polls coming out of Iraq is an indicator that it is a bad poll.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:39 amAmazing how the koolaid drinking Bush/Murdoch supplicants get on their knees to lap up these poll results that have obviously been fabricated by a rightwing propaganda generating organization.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:39 am#57 Just because you want desparetly for the Iraqis to not like us and for the USA to fail doesn’t mean it will happen sir. Why is this poll a Hoax? Please give me detailed information as the polls and the article come from a very good source. You may not want to believe the Iraqi want our help, but they certainly do. They also are stating in droves that they are happier now then before we liberated them. I know, all shockers to this crowd that people value Freedom and Democracy over everything else.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:40 am45. Comment by TripMaster Monkey — March 19, 2007 @ 10:18 am
Great points about getting the elite on record for why they chose not to serve. My concern with the draft is that underpriveleged will have no way to avoid service while the elite will still be sitting out any war.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:40 amThe other thing I believe is that if Bush had the draft we would have many more trips in more arenas than we have now.
Roger_Rhetoric sez:
RR, see my earlier post for today’s reason you are a moron.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:41 amI wonder if hacker bob was among the 2,000 dittoheads who were so vociferous in their opposition to me and 10s of thousands of other peace loving people at the Pentagon on Saturday? My recollection is that we the people were there peacefully. We didn’t yell and scream obsenities at the Bush war supporters. None of us called other “motherfucking traitors” as the Bush war supporters did. If there was violence on Saturday in DC it was from the uneducated sheeple who follow Rush and Faux Noise Network. It wasn’t from those called “traitors” by sea slugs like Bob.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:41 am#41 Bluedahlia
I wonder how many of these college Republicans at Boise State come from farm families in eastern Idaho. The potato farmers have been hiring illegal immigrants for decades, and the nice homes and modern equipment they have are due to the cheap labor of migrant farmworkers from Mexico. It might have even helped pay for those kids’ college education.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:41 am#60 I do think it makes sense. Anyone not living in Freedom and Democracy wants it. It is the most valuable thing is life and death is certainly worth it. How many Americans died to gain out Freedom? Was it worth it? The Iraqis, like all people of the world, understand what it takes and are obviously willing to lay their lives down for the most important thing in the world.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:45 amBob, how bout it?
Comment by RUCerious — March 19, 2007 @ 10:19 am
I am all for it. By all means punish the businesses that hire illegal immigrants. Also punish the landlords that rent to them. If there are no jobs for them and no places for them to live, maybe they will try to come here legally.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:45 amComment by Roger_Roger — March 19, 2007 @ 10:28 am
Reread the article R2dumb2. It states one assertion and gives percentages on a different assertion. If the data is so definitive why didn’t they give all the numbers. Figures don’t lie but liars figure. Of course the fact that the Iraqis are all refugees in England could be a factor. They never said where these statistics were gathers.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:45 amPerhaps they got the data from the Kurds who are not involved apparently.
Gross oversimplification seems to be the best friend of neocons.
shane sez:
Thanx ^_^
Excellent point yourself…I guess that, according to this logic, we will indeed have a general draft, as soon as we reach the point where it no longer matters whether or not the elite are on record as avoiding service (a point I fear we are approaching at breakneck speed). Once we hit that point, only the true ruling elite will be safely exempt from service.
That is true…it’s unreasonable to assume that Chimpy would be any more prudent with a standing army ten times the size it is currently, than he has proved to be with our current ‘volunteer’ army.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:47 am#57 Just because you want desparetly for the Iraqis to not like us and for the USA to fail doesn’t mean it will happen sir.
Nice straw man arguments, loser. What an intellectual wuss.
The poll is obviously a hoax. Its own numbers utterly defy common sense. It is also at odds with all other polls, the numbers in which by and large do make sense. The poll was conducted by a known right wing polling apparatus, and was published in a Rupert Murdoch owned newspaper. Murdoch is a documented propagandist who carries water for the Bush administration, and is a fervent supporter of the war in Iraq. So you figure it out from there, RR.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:49 amAnd it also allows the people who think they are embarrassing, idiotic jackasses to have a voice. You get what you play for.
Comment by shane — March 19, 2007 @ 10:32 am
I am all for the opposition being able to have the opposing view. I do draw the line when it comes to ” tackling the contestants”. That is not simply “having a say”, it is assault.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:50 amWhoa, the 5000 Iraqis polled are not actually IN Iraq?
That poll is meaningless then.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:50 am#65 I am willing to take the economic hit to remove illegal aliens from our soil. It is creepy how the left is so eager to fight to allow illegals to keep invading America. Your the party that is supposed to fight for poor Americans. Illegal aliens reduce the average wage and take jobs away from poor Americans. Business’ should be fined heavily for even hiring one and our President/Congress should be doing everything in their power to protect poor Americans. THere is simply no reason (other then the fact both sides get paid tons of money to not do anything about illegal aliens) that they cannot rid this country of this horrid problem. I am for raising the minimum wage, but doing that and forgeting to rid this country of those that take away the jobs and deflate wages illegally is very hypocritical.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:51 amTo forcefully criticize rude, racist, hateful and stupid behavior by college Republicans is NOT suppression of free speech
So, assault is a reasonable solution?
The government has no right to dictate what may or may not be said. However, we, as citizens, have a responsibility to expose and denounce this sort of anti-social behavior.
So, you agree we should not have any hate-crime legislation when it comes to speech then.
It is time for Republicans to say why this behavior is not symptomatic of the Republican party’s overall mindframe.
Comment by Peter — March 19, 2007 @ 10:28 am
It isn’t as far as I know. For SOME Republicans it is, but not all. Not even the majority.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:53 am#66 Chimpeach,
March 19th, 2007 at 10:53 amFunny you mention that. Our biggest and most “famous” Idaho billionaire made his fortune in the potato and agriculture industry. Many here know that him and his empire were built upon destruction of the environment and exploitation of his employees. I think you hit the nail on the head. It is ironic as well.
#60 I do think it makes sense. Anyone not living in Freedom and Democracy wants it.
Comment by Roger_Roger — March 19, 2007 @ 10:45 am
You are a naive idiot, RR. People want food, shelter, and security first. People want to live in a place where they don’t have to fear death every time they leave their house. People want to live in a place where their kids can go outside, can go to school, can play. Freedom means nothing in the chaos that is Iraq.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:54 amWho left our borders wide open since 9-11? Chimpy did.
Comment by Tom3 — March 19, 2007 @ 10:36 am
And there’s a huge illegal Irish immigrant problem in big cities but they look like us so nobody cares.
Bush certainly seems to like his open borders. It helped the Republicans keep minimum wages down and guarantees virtually slave labor to corporate farmers and related industries.
I haven’t seen one illegal immigrant raid on a workplace since Bill Clinton left office. But I’m sure this must in some way be Clinton’s fault too.
March 19th, 2007 at 10:54 am#71 You are calling the poll a fake because Iraqis are happier now even though they have lost loved ones? It makes perfectly good sense to me. They are fighting the most important war of their lives. The war for Democracy and Freedom often times come at a very heavy cost and obviously the Iraqis realize this. If is baffling that this crowd won’t accept that people are willing to accept death to gain their freedom. This story has repeated itself throughout history and America’s freedom came at a heavy cost as well. The Iraqi’s so the chance for freedom and thus accept that some death is part of the process. Do you folks think that Freedom isn’t worth dying for?
March 19th, 2007 at 10:54 amNo, please answer.
Was America’s freedom not worth it because many had to die for it? Many like to jab at the left for being against Democracy and Freedom, but I have never believed that to be truly true. Are you actually going on record as saying the price of Freedom and Democracy isn’t worth it?
March 19th, 2007 at 10:57 am#72 I am all for the opposition being able to have the opposing view. I do draw the line when it comes to †tackling the contestantsâ€. That is not simply “having a sayâ€, it is assault.
Comment by hacker bob — March 19, 2007 @ 10:50 am
So it’s assault when the police “tackles the contestants” if they are behaving peacefully? And, do you consider an assault to apply pepper spray to the ones demonstrating, if they aren’t engaging in any violent activity?
March 19th, 2007 at 10:57 am#77 Often times freedom and Democracy are not gained without a massive struggle. You think America’s Freedom was easy? How many died again so we are free? HOW MANY? Iraq is no different. These people deserve a chance at freedom and death is sadly part of the cost. Anyone that doesn’t believe freedom and Democracy aren’t worth death isn’t American. Your free life is based on many many dead Americans putting their lives down for it. You disgrace everyone who fought for your freedom with statements like that. I certainly don’t take my freedom and democracy lightly and I understand the massively huge cost to get me freedom. How dare you demand others not have that chance and how dare you devalue my own freedom.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:00 am#77 VebalKint,
March 19th, 2007 at 11:01 amI would guess that R2 has not heard about Maslow’s heirarchy of needs. If basic, bottom level survival needs are not met first, one CANNOT procede to the next level of needs. Wanting freedom is pretty high up on a pyramid that is still being built on the ground level.
The Feds raided meat packing plants out here in the West. They dragged off whole families and detained them without rights in Texas.
And the conditions in these family prisons are horrible.
I bet the CEO of Swift burned up the phone lines to the Oval Office complaining about this. Only his plants were raided, not the competitions. Maybe he didn’t give enough money to the Repukes during the last election.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:02 amJust because you want desparetly for the Iraqis to not like us
Comment by Roger_Roger — March 19, 2007 @ 10:40 am
You started your argument with a FALSE ASSERTION. Your theory then would easily be proven false because your hypothesis is incorrect.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:02 amYou want to try again?
Roger the Repuke is an idiot. We cannot give the Iraqis freedom.
And our troops should not die for it.
Iraqis have to figure this out for themselves, and we should get the hell out and let them.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:03 am#79 This post explains a lot about RR. He is absolutely desperate to impose a Bush-spun storyline on the gruesome reality in Iraq. His every post drips with unsupported assumptions about culture and human behavior that reek of a Western superiority complex and a right wing ideology that is breathtaking for both its arrongance and ignorance. RR fits well my definition of stupidity: he is incapable of learning. No wonder he feels an affinity for Bush.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:03 amComment by chimpeach — March 19, 2007 @ 10:41 am
Idaho State Motto: Do as I say not as I do.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:05 amIt is ironic that idiot Repukes like Roger actually think that the Chimpy regime can bring freedom to the world….while they are taking away OUR freedom.
We no longer have the Bill of Rights or Habeus Corpus. The Feds spy on us without warrants and can seize our property and cash based on an accusation…and we have to prove we are innocent to get it back!
The US is NOT exporting freedom. The “School of the Americas”, where our troops teach other countries how to TORTURE people, is proof of this. Our history is one of overthrowing democratically elected governments in Iran, Chile and elsewhere. Overthrowing democracy is not bringing freedom to those countries!!
March 19th, 2007 at 11:05 amYou think America’s Freedom was easy? How many died again so we are free?
I hope you’re not talking about the American Revolution, and somehow comparing it to Iraq>?
The French didn’t invade the colonies to free them from King George.
Geez.
how on earth is what is going on in Iraq the damn definition of Freedom and Democracy?
March 19th, 2007 at 11:05 amMost reports of the “elections” indicated that each tribe voted lockstep for the candidate their tribal chief told them to.
Up your R2DumbToo. Go build your strawman factory someplace else.
Comment by Evil Spaniard — March 19, 2007 @ 10:57 am
Yes, now show me the instances of it happening. Generally, peacefull protesters are not tackeld or pepper sprayed. But sometimes over zealous police do it, I admit.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:07 amThe poll reported in the London Times IS a fake.
It contradicts every other poll I have seen from Iraq, including a brand new one reported by the BBC today.
And if the Times poll is of Iraqi expats, it is definitely a fake.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:07 amWe need ANOTHER revolution to free us from the tyranny of King George the Turd.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:09 amHow many Americans died to gain out Freedom? Comment by Roger_Roger — March 19, 2007 @ 10:45 am
That right R2dumb2-
March 19th, 2007 at 11:10 amAMERICANS fought for their independence and freedoms. That is how revolutions have to be fought so that the outcome is maintained. The PEOPLE have to want changes and make them. The Iraqis were could have gathered together to fight Hussein the way they are now fighting us.
But they didn’t. So Hussein was a fiercer enemy than the United States, that’s why they didn’t fight him?
#84 Tom3,
March 19th, 2007 at 11:13 amHere is a link to an article in my weekly that is very similar. It also addresses the post earlier by someone that stated that it is not all about Mexicans. These are just people who have no jobs, no options in the countries they are from. Corporations and businesses are the ones that keep offering them something better here. That and what used to be a tolerant and diverse country where ideals could be made reality and dreams could come true if you just worked hard enough. Survival is a pretty big motivator. Thiving is the carrot that is just out of reach.
72. Comment by hacker bob — March 19, 2007 @ 10:50 am
Apparently you want to split hairs, or is that something you learned in fundamentalist church where you believe in the literal translation of the Bible and apparently everything else.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:15 amNot one of you is willing to answer my question I see. That is very gutless of you folks. Is a discussion about Freedom and Democracy off limits here or what? You can attack me all you want but it is meaningless if you fail to engage me on the topic. I, alone with most every person on earth, believes that Freedom and Democracy are worth dying for. No, I haven’t forgoten about Maslow’s heirarchy. What you fail to see is that in the most important war of these folks lives, many of those things get wrapped into the war. The few that are fighting to keep freedom and Democracy away from these people attempt to take away security, food, water, etc. in an attempt to dissuade them from continuing the fight. What I don’t understand is how you feel they should stop the fight and accept no freedom and no democracy. #87 Even goes so far as to assume we Americans are different then others. #87 Is assuming the other people in this world are against Freedom which is laughable at best. #87 Are you personally against Democracy and Freedom?
It was never a question as to whether they wanted their freedom. Logic tells us they want it. The question is whether we are helping or hurting them in that struggle at this point. The poll shows they still value and ask for our help.
Again, was the cost of American freedom not worth it? Please answer that as it tells alot.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:16 amWhoa, the 5000 Iraqis polled are not actually IN Iraq?
That poll is meaningless then.
Comment by Tom3 — March 19, 2007 @ 10:50 am
Although the poll is obviously meaningless I was pointing out that the article never stated where or from exactly whom the data was gathered.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:17 amRather convenient for the Murdoch bunch.
#90 Of course Iraq is not Free yet or the war would be over and won. They are still very much in the middle of the most important war of their lives. Freedom and Democracy isn’t gained over night. If you feel we need to change policy to help speed up the transition and the victory for freedom, I am all ears. I have even stated that I am game for the idea of leaving Iraq if someone can prove that it will actually be a net gain for the Iraqi people in their struggle for Freedom. The only thing important at this point is providing the Iraqis with the Freedom, Democracy, and Security they deserve. How that is accomplished I don’t care,a s long as it is. I think many people have different views and strategies on how to accomplish this but I hope no one in America is advocating against Democracy and Freedom.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:20 amAnyone that doesn’t believe freedom and Democracy aren’t worth death isn’t American. Comment by Roger_Roger
Of course, the President believes in sacrifice, but when it comes to rolling back a massive tax cut for the wealthy to help pay for the Iraq War, that’s where he draws the line. Bush’s Policy: No sacrifice is too great for freedom, as long as it’s other people who are sacrificing.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:21 amComment by shane — March 19, 2007 @ 11:15 am
Here is the hair I am splitting.
You said that the people that think the groups are “embarrassing, idiotic jackasses” should have a voice too. I agree. What I was disagreeing with is TripMaster Monkey’s opinion that they should start tackleing contestants.
Do you think a violent reaction is the best course of action?
BTW, I don’t attend a fundamentalist church, or any other church for that matter. And I know the the Bible is not literal. But neither of those are the topic.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:22 amI, alone with most every person on earth, believes that Freedom and Democracy are worth dying for
What the hell? I, alone…….with most every person on earth
March 19th, 2007 at 11:27 amBwahahaha
Why don’t you go find some of those people and post your precious thoughts to them?
It is creepy how the left is so eager to fight to allow illegals to keep invading America.
Comment by Roger_Roger — March 19, 2007 @ 10:51 am
Again R2 a fake argument based on a FALSE assertion. How about not speaking to us like we’re all of like mind on every issue and declaring issues to be true which are clearly not the opinions of most here.
Also you say at one point “I’m willing to take the hit…” Well that’s well and good, many of us are. But why are you telling us? Why don’t you contact your White House and congress members and tell them about it.
That’s what Progressives do to get changes made. We discuss here and then go take action.
You argue here, trying to disrupt discussions that might lead to positive changes, and then act like you care about making improvements in illegal immigration. If you in fact wanted to make change you would talk to your like-minded voters and work with them to make change.
I guess what I’m saying is your full of shit.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:28 am#98 Shane, The Times of London poll was of Iraqis living in Iraq:
Results are based on face-to-face interviews amongst a nationally representative sample of 5,019 adults aged 18 years + throughout Iraq.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:30 am•The standard margin of error on the sample size is +1.4%
•The methodology uses multi-stage random probability sampling and covers every one of the eighteen governorates within Iraq.
•Interviews conducted 10th – 22nd February 2007.
“I hope no one in America is advocating against Democracy and Freedom.” Comment by Roger_Roger
I think Democracy and Freedom in Iraq are terrific goals. Of course, what price are we willing to pay? We were told the Iraq War would “pay for itself.” Now it looks like the cost to the American taxpayers will hit $1 trillion. Is that too high a price, given the problems we face at home? If not, is $2 trillion too high? There must be a number where we say: “this no longer is the best way to use our limited resources.” I, for one, would rather have seen this $1,000,000,000,000+ go towards solving our education and health care problems.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:30 amDifferent poll resultshere.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:31 amDeeply, deeply, deeply stupid.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:33 amNow that Exley is here to defend the poll we can be CERTAIN it is a hoax.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:34 amHere are the details of the Times poll:
http://www.opinion.co.uk/Newsroom_details.aspx?NewsId=67
http://www.opinion.co.uk/Documents/FINALTables.pdf
March 19th, 2007 at 11:34 amThanks for the comments TPers. Off to Red University. LOL
March 19th, 2007 at 11:35 am#103 So your saying this crowd, along with the Dems in congress are actively fighting to rid this country of illegals? Seems counter to what TP posts so often as well as what many on this very thread have stated. To me, it is wierd that it is a political issue. I would think all Americans and both parties would realize that we cannot allow illegal aliens to steal the jobs of our por and deflate wages. That helps no American other then “Big Business”. The only winner is Big Business yet TP and many Dems seem to step away from taking any real action to completely stop them.
Personally, we should actively search out and fine (in a huge way) any company hiring even 1 illegal. We should build and guard a wall across the entire Texas/Mexican border and we should actively hunt for any illegal in America. We need new laws as well. When our police pull someone over, they should have the right and the mandate to turn them over to the proper authority to export them out of the country the very first chance we get.
To me, it is wrong and confusing to See Bush want to provide illegals with a pardon for their crime and even let them stay here continuing to take away American jobs. The Dems seem to have no problem with this plan. Furthermore, I see neither party ready to increase the budget to rid this country of the 11 million plus already here. In this regards, neither party seems to care about Americans.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:36 amMore details of the Times poll:
http://www.opinion.co.uk/Documents/Charts.ppt#1
March 19th, 2007 at 11:37 am#106 Well, J-rock, those poll results may be different, but look who conducted the poll: USA Today. We know those left wing moonbats at USAT hate America, and wouldn’t ever give up their sissy liberal lives in defense of FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY. In fact, they hate FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY at USAT!
/sarcasm off
March 19th, 2007 at 11:38 am#105 I personally think in hindsight the Iraq war was wrong. The problem is we broke it so we are responsible to fix it. The $$ cost isn’t the issue at this point as human freedom is worth more then any dollar amount. We created this situation so we shouldn’t leave it broken IMO. If the Iraqi’s see value in us staying and see value in us continuing to help them, who are we to refuse at this point?
March 19th, 2007 at 11:38 amComment by hacker bob — March 19, 2007 @ 11:22 am
Sheesh, hacker bob…looking back through this thread, it seems you’ve certainly gotten a lot of mileage out of my flippant suggestion that protesters should dress up as Border Militia members and tackle the contestants. Never mind that 99% of all college students would view it as all in good fun (especially those who are running an obstacle course that involves crawling through holes in fences)…your first reaction is ’silencing free speech with assault’??? Sad, really.
Well, hacker bob, if you truly have issues with ‘tackling, here’s a few, less ‘violent’ suggestions for the protest:
Are these options sufficiently ‘anti-violent’ for you, bob?
March 19th, 2007 at 11:39 amSo Exley, why does this Murdoch-commissioned “poll” disagree so starkly with other major polls recently taken in Iraq?
Never mind, I think I just answered my own question.
March 19th, 2007 at 11:40 amThe $$ cost isn’t the issue at this point as human freedom is worth more then any dollar amount. Comment by Roger_Roger
So, at this point, we should stay in Iraq until Iraqis have “democracy and freedom” regardless of the cost? That’s certainly a fair position; one with which I disagree (the old “throwing good money after bad” analogy seems appropriate.
However, I wonder why Bush continues to exclude the Iraq War costs from his budgets and why he hasn’t even attempted to pay for the costs of the war but instead is just pushing 100% of the cost into the deficit for future administrations to deal with. If this is such a noble cause, why doesn’t Bush ask us to pay for it?
March 19th, 2007 at 11:47 am#113 VerbalKint
Shamed, I abjectly withdraw my execrable, SP liberal libtard poll results.
;)
March 19th, 2007 at 11:48 am#97 Roger_Roger
This is from that same article about the poll. What do you make of it:
“One question showed the sharp divide in attitudes towards the continued presence of foreign troops in Iraq. Some 53% of Iraqis nationwide agree that the security situation will improve in the weeks after a withdrawal by international forces, while only 26% think it will get worse.”
It sounds to me like the Iraqis don’t agree with you or Bush about the need to stay there. Or how about this:
“Not surprisingly, the divisions in Iraqi society were reflected in statistics — Sunnis were more likely to back the previous Ba’athist regime (51%) while the Shi’ites (66%) preferred the Maliki government.”
A slim majority of Sunnis prefer the Saddam regime to the present one. The Shiites, as expected, prefer the Shiite-led government. And here’s an interesting question and set of results:
“President George Bush has announced he will be sending 20,000+ troops to Iraq in the coming months. Why do you think he is doing this?”
To bring security and stability back to Iraq – 33%
To attack neighboring countries (e.g. Iran, Syria) – 22%
To take out the al-Maliki government – 9%
To increase their troops and take control of Iraq – 5%
Don’t know/Refused – 18%
You should take a look at the entire poll results and the methodology before you start celebrating any kind of a victory over ‘glum’ reporting.
Opinion Research Business Iraq poll results – PDF
March 19th, 2007 at 12:04 pm#116, Well, VerbalKint,
The shallow, smart-aleck response would be to say that USA TODAY, ABC News, the British Broadcasting Corp. and ARD are, of course, members of the liberal media and have created a phony poll….But, as I said, to dismiss the poll so easily would be as shallow as your dismissal of the Times poll for the sole reason that it appears in a Murdoch-owned paper.
As I said yesterday, when I posted the Times of London poll on another thread, I am skeptical that any poll coming out of Iraq these days can ascertain a truly accurate picture of Iraqi attitudes. I think there are germs of truth in both polls.
I would, however, also suggest that it is quite possible that you underestimate just how horrific life in Iraq was under Saddam Hussein.
Even the USA Today/ABC poll you cite shows only a 7% difference between those who says life was better before Saddam was deposed and those who say life is worse now. (”In the USA TODAY/ABC News Poll, Iraqis by 43%-36% said life was better than before the invasion.”)
March 19th, 2007 at 12:04 pmThe US is NOT exporting freedom. [...] Overthrowing democracy is not bringing freedom to those countries!!
Comment by Tom3
The thing is the ignorant mass of people which has been indoctrinated with a heavy dose of nationalistic propaganda, believe just the opposite. They will believe anything their government throw at them. For example 9/11. Whatever the government says must be the explanation for what happened. Yep.
March 19th, 2007 at 12:04 pmAnd here is Juan, right of cue, with his “9/11 was an inside job by the Mossad (or CIA) (Lockheed Martin)(or whoever…Juan has been quite clear about what he truly believes)” conspiracy theory.
March 19th, 2007 at 12:10 pmPeople want food, shelter, and security first. People want to live in a place where they don’t have to fear death every time they leave their house. People want to live in a place where their kids can go outside, can go to school, can play. Freedom means nothing in the chaos that is Iraq.
Comment by VerbalKint — March 19, 2007 @ 10:54 am
very good points…
March 19th, 2007 at 12:13 pmironic that it is all those things that have USofAmericans so complacant about their own freedoms and liberties…
they can’t see what is really happening because they are still able to drive down to the mall and watch the teevee and eat to obesity………….etc.
…
Exley, there’s ample evidence that tears the administration’s “official” 9/11 conspiracy theory to shreds. If you want to dispute Juan’s conclusions regarding 9/11, kindly do it with facts and evidence, rather than with your usual insults and invective.
March 19th, 2007 at 12:15 pm#116, Well, VerbalKint,
Even the USA Today/ABC poll you cite [...]
Comment by Exley
Hey, bitch.
That was MY citation.
Get your moonbats straight.
:-P
March 19th, 2007 at 12:15 pm#118
Sorry to be repetitious with the links to the poll. I was busy reading the thing while Exley was posting the links. I would bear in mind that sampling across the country and averaging, even if they break down by “rural” and “urban” areas, can dilute the results.
March 19th, 2007 at 12:16 pmThe Bush WH is clearly relying on semantics for its position that, “The House of Representatives shall be composed of Members chosen every second Year by the People of the several States…”. I’d like to see them try to remove the representatives and senators of Kentucky, Virginia, Pennsylvania and Massachusetts, which are commonwealths and not states. There is no mention in the constitution of commonwealths.
March 19th, 2007 at 12:16 pmExley, what is your own estimate of Iraqi civilian casualties since the Bush gang unleashed chaos?
I put it at half a million.
I think you underestimate how bad it really is in Iraq.
By the way, polls aside, claiming that we are “less bad” than Saddam isn’t much to crow about.
March 19th, 2007 at 12:16 pm“I think you underestimate how bad it really is in Iraq.”
Quite the opposite, VerbalKint. I am quite certain that Al Qaeda and the “insurgents” and Shiite militias (both terrorists) have made life a living hell in much of Iraq.
March 19th, 2007 at 12:21 pmJuan has been quite clear about what he truly believes
Comment by Exley
Please, tell me who I think pulled that out?
I know it must hurt you. This event is the sole reason of your pain. But that pain should bring the best of you, not the worst. Again, you should demand your government, you know, the people you pay for serving you, to bring all the responsible people to justice. Have you done that? Are you patriotic enough besides mumbling God Bless America every time your faith begins to crumble? No, you believe your government after Bush himself opposed!!! to an investigation of the events. Incredible. BTW, you are a New Yorker, have you seen the BBC live broadcast video of the 9/11 sucess, where they informed that WTC 7 has fallen, 7 minutes before it actually falls? You must recognize the building. Remember, the only thing worse than not knowing the truth, is knowing the truth.
March 19th, 2007 at 12:24 pmAgain, was the cost of American freedom not worth it? Please answer that as it tells alot.
Comment by Roger_Roger — March 19, 2007 @ 11:16 am
Yes it was worth the cost to AMERICANS for American freedoms. Then wouldn’t the cost of another terrorist attack be worth it to maintain rights to privacy and habeus corpus.
And if freedom is what we are fighting for why are we not in Sub Saharan Africa where many more atrocities occur than in Iraq. Because there is no oil there and oil contracts is why we are in Iraq.
And had Spain and France needed oil during the revolutionary war they would have been here fighting for what we had against England. But because we were fighting for freedom nobody helped us fight. And precisely because our ancestors died for these freedoms, why are you not indignant that these rights have been taken away?
March 19th, 2007 at 12:27 pmJuan has been quite clear about what he truly believes
Whoops…I dropped a word there. That was supposed to be “Juan has NEVER been quite clear about what he truly believes.”
Sorry about that. Now that we have cleared that up, please tell us. Juan. Who do you think was responsible for the 9/11 attacks and what was their motive?
March 19th, 2007 at 12:29 pmOften times freedom and Democracy are not gained without a massive struggle
How dare you demand others not have that chance and how dare you devalue my own freedom.
Comment by Roger_Roger — March 19, 2007 @ 11:00 am
Where’s your indignation over the Administration’s devaluing your freedom.
Blah, blah, blah bullshit.
The brave soldiers who fought to give you your freedom here did not do it so some spoiled rich kid and his cronies could take it all away from Americans today. THAT doesn’t piss you off though.
FreedomS here were won with a BANG by the AMERICAN PEOPLE and they are GOING OUT WITH THE WHIMPER OF NEOCON SISSIES LIKE YOU.
March 19th, 2007 at 12:33 pmWho do you think was responsible for the 9/11 attacks and what was their motive?
Comment by Exley
Nevermind me. Im not a US citizen. Tell me, buddy, do you think that the official explanation is free of doubts? There are people here as american as you are that believe the 9/11 commission report is faulty in several ways. Why would they do that? And Im asking you for real, adult answers, not some recycled propaganda.
March 19th, 2007 at 12:37 pmWhat I was disagreeing with is TripMaster Monkey’s opinion that they should start tackleing contestants.
Comment by hacker bob — March 19, 2007 @ 11:22 am
hb – you can beat a dead horse but you can’t make it run. What tmm was doing was thinking aloud not really tackling anybody. Now you people don’t want us to be able to think, or speak, or make jokes that some dim wit might take literally.
With all the real issues available to discuss this is what you choose to hang onto. Pathetic.
March 19th, 2007 at 12:39 pmYou are avoiding the question, Juan. You have made the accusation. I am asking you your perspective and analysis of 9/11. I have made my views quite clear. I believe it was the work of Al Qaeda and I accept much of the 9/11 Commission Report. Now it’s your turn.
March 19th, 2007 at 12:41 pmRoger, I certainly hope that when you have passed on, you can see your children pissing on your grave for supporting this fiasco that is bankrupting this nation. They’re gonna get stuck with the bill.
March 19th, 2007 at 12:41 pmComment by Exley — March 19, 2007 @ 11:30 am
Really because I didn’t see any of those statistics in the article as it was presented here. Or did you just make that shit up. Oh I know, you called Rove and he dug up the criteria that was used in the poll.
So your saying the pollsters went outside the green zone, into the war zone, and asked questions of people who were under attack and couldn’t get even water for their children.
Sure you are. Because water and food aren’t important as long as you have freedom, right.
March 19th, 2007 at 12:44 pm#121 Those poll numbers seem to be perfectly in line. The Iraqis from the other poll currently believe the troop surge and the American presense will disarm all the militias and bring stability. The next poll you sited shows they believe that the American forces should leave once the job is done as it will create even more stability. These things make perfect sense to most of us. We have a country of people that believe we should finish the job and then leave. Of course they want a foreign force out of their country once the job is completed. Who wouldn’t?
Futhermore, showing that 66% prefer the new government speaks alot as that is the majority of the population. You don’t believe the Sunnis and the Shiites are 50% of the population each do you? That poll is in line with the poll showing that most Iraqi’s believe the new government and the current situation is better then the evil dictatorship they were once under.
Remember this:
“By a majority of two to one, Iraqis believe military operations now under way will disarm all militias.” This shows they still have faith in the American forces to secure their country and help them on the road to freedom and democracy.
Furthermore:
Margaret Beckett, the foreign secretary, said the findings pointed to progress. “There is no widespread violence in the four southern provinces and the fact that the picture is more complex than the stereotype usually portrayed is reflected in today’s poll,†she said.†Once again showing the validity of the polls in question. Much of Iraq is very much a violence free place where democracy and Freedom is becoming common place. They are simply asking we stay and complete to job so freedom and Democracy can become common place through out the country. I don’t understand why this is something we can argue about. We have a situation (a mess) we created and we have the people affected asking us for a bit more help in their journey for freedom. Who are we to deny them our assistance at this point? How could anyone deny them that, walk away, and potentially watch as these special people fail in their war for the freedom they so much deserve. I get the feeling that you, along with many on this site, don’t value freedom and Democracy like most people of the world do which is odd. These things are very much worth dying for.
March 19th, 2007 at 12:46 pm#135 Please explain how I am not living in a Free democracy today. I hope your not simply talking about the Patriot Act as I disagree with it as well and think it is high time the Dem controlled congress change it to better reflect our freedom. Outside of that, I don’t see how anyone could attempt to say we aren’t free as we are in the most free country in the world.
March 19th, 2007 at 12:48 pmBecause water and food aren’t important as long as you have freedom, right.
Comment by shane
Ha. I remember one post of Exley where he said that now Iraqis were having cell phones and stuff…you know, what you really need to live a happy life. Amazing the concept of progress some people have.
March 19th, 2007 at 12:49 pm“they deflate pay checks and steal American jobs from the poor”
Comment by Roger_Roger — March 19, 2007 @ 10:33 am
Roger, you never disappoint. Anytime I need a laugh I stop by and look for your screed, thanks again my friend – and I’m only half way down the thread. So illegal immigrants force employers to pay lower wages and hire them over american applicants eh? How does that work? You’re right, something needs to be done about this – we can’t continue to allow law abiding businesses to be intimidated like this and forced into illegal activity can we?
March 19th, 2007 at 12:50 pm#139, “Really because I didn’t see any of those statistics in the article as it was presented here. Or did you just make that shit up. Oh I know, you called Rove and he dug up the criteria that was used in the poll.”
Actually, I simply Googled the name of the polling firm, went to their Web site, and found their press release on the poll, which contained the specifics of the poll and the methodology employed.
It really wasn’t that difficult.
March 19th, 2007 at 12:51 pmComment by VerbalKint — March 19, 2007 @ 11:38 am
Those liberals who neocons think CONTROL the media are a dangerous bunch – they even want to give the Bill of Rights back to the people of America. The horror.
Now R2dumb2 flip flopped away from the Iraqi freedom he’s singlehandedly working for back to illegal immigration he’s working on so dilligently.
March 19th, 2007 at 12:51 pmHe’ll get right back to work as soon as he gets off his knees under Rove’s desk. He’ll return momentarily.
and we have the people affected asking us for a bit more help in their journey for freedom.
Comment by Roger_Roger
This is the kind of moronic statements that I complain so much about. Who talks like this? Journey for freedom? What the hell is that? Get your US forces out of that country, they will figure out how to live after 5,000 years of civilization, you fast food citizen. What a racist.
March 19th, 2007 at 12:53 pm“Ha. I remember one post of Exley where he said that now Iraqis were having cell phones and stuff…you know, what you really need to live a happy life.”
Well, you are misremembering or lying, Juan. I never wrote any such thing. I sincerely hope you are simply confusing me with someone else, Juan, and not being deliberately misleading. While we rarely agree on anything, I have always found you to be honest.
Again, I never posted any such comment. If you have any evidence I did, please provide it.
March 19th, 2007 at 12:54 pmOutside of that, I don’t see how anyone could attempt to say we aren’t free as we are in the most free country in the world.
Comment by Roger_Roger
New Orleans. Tell that people they have freedom. They probably dont have houses or food, but they have freedom. Yep, Switzerland must be so envy of your freedom.
March 19th, 2007 at 12:55 pmJuan has been quite clear about what he truly believes
Comment by Exley — March 19, 2007 @ 12:10 pm
As you are quite clear about your intentions and what you truly believe.
March 19th, 2007 at 12:59 pmYou’re like a bald baboon with your ass hanging out.
So don’t feign modesty here.
Again, I never posted any such comment. If you have any evidence I did, please provide it.
Comment by Exley
It was a long time ago. You were talking about the good things that US had brought to that evil doing hellhole. You mentioned cell phones and stuff. Im positive. Im not as skilled as you to find older posts. If Im wrong I apologize. I know you are pretty strict when it comes to sources and formality, which by the way you should use that feature of yours when it comes to explain why all the rubble from the WTC was so fastly removed and sold it to China.
March 19th, 2007 at 1:01 pmComment by Exley — March 19, 2007 @ 12:10 pm
Okay exley – where are the air traffic tapes talking about 4 jets being off course. Where are those tapes, why have we never heard them. And where were the fighter jets that should have been scrambled when 4 jets were clearly off course, Least of all the one heading into Pentagon air space. Why don’t you find a link and we’ll all listen to what the air traffic controllers were saying and who decided to do nothing.
March 19th, 2007 at 1:02 pmI believe that Cheney was conveniently in his bunker and had sent the jets out of the area to play war games.
But since you know all truths why don’t you tell us what happened.
“You mentioned cell phones and stuff.”
Nope. Not me.
“If Im wrong I apologize.”
I accept your apology.
As for WTC wreckage, and why it was removed so quickly — Was the city supposed to keep the fiery wreckage of two of the biggest skyscrapers in the world that contained the bodies of 3,000 innocent people in place there indefinitely????
March 19th, 2007 at 1:09 pmWas the city supposed to keep the fiery wreckage of two of the biggest skyscrapers in the world that contained the bodies of 3,000 innocent people in place there indefinitely????
Comment by Exley
just until it was analyzed. Crime scene investigation 101. Come on!
March 19th, 2007 at 1:13 pmComment by Roger_Roger — March 19, 2007 @ 12:48 pm
Are we free when we hold a presidential election and a candidate wins the poplular and what we now know the electoral vote and yet he did not get to serve as president. And shockingly this all hinged on the votes in a state where his brother is governor and then on a largely republican appointed Supreme Court that involved itself in an unprecedented action.
March 19th, 2007 at 1:14 pmAnd I am talking about the Patriot Act and the already admitted abuses of such.
But as long as you’re posting here against us I guess your freedom is guaranteed.
#152, Shane wrote: “since you know all truths why don’t you tell us what happened.”
I have already said I accept the findings of the 9/11 Commission. So, if you want to know what I believe happened, you may read the Commission’s Report.
I am not one who is claiming that parties other than Al Qaeda perpetrated the 9/11 attacks. That is Juan’s and your claim. Accordlingly, I have simply asked who you believe carried out the attacks and why.
March 19th, 2007 at 1:14 pmHa. I remember one post of Exley where he said that now Iraqis were having cell phones and stuff…you know, what you really need to live a happy life. Amazing the concept of progress some people have.
Comment by Juan C — March 19, 2007 @ 12:49 pm
They’d have to have cell phones since I’m sure the phone lines were disabled when the power lines quit working.
Thing is they have cell phones but nowhere to charge them. Not a problem though because there’s nobody to call for help anyway.
March 19th, 2007 at 1:18 pmExley sez:
Well, as long as we’re chatting about it…
Exley, the wreckage of WTC buildings I, II, and VII was a crime scene. Disruption of this crime scene before a full investigation could be completed was a criminal act. Building VII, (which I notice you failed to mention) allegedly underwent a controlled collapse, visually indistinguishable from a controlled demolition, due to fire damage alone. Don’t you think that the rubble of this building at least merited serious investigation? (BTW, no one died in WTC VII’s collapse, so that specious argument is out).
Also, I can’t help but notice you specifically said ‘firey wreckage’. Perhaps you could then explain why there was molten steel pooled at the bases of the buildings’ elevator shafts, seeing as how the fires that burned in these buildings were far too cool to melt steel.
March 19th, 2007 at 1:19 pmmmmm…my post was eaten, by the “I dont want any conversation about 9/11″ TP policy. Progress, yeah.
My personal favorite about the official explanations about 9/11 is that the bodies of the Pentangon Crash “evaporated”. Good Lord (and Im an atheist).
March 19th, 2007 at 1:21 pmWas the city supposed to keep[...]there indefinitely????
Comment by Exley — March 19, 2007 @ 1:09 pm
obviously, there was no actual hurry… huh…
March 19th, 2007 at 1:21 pmexcept to destroy evidence…
Exley sez:
Actually, the 9/11 Commission report doesn’t even try to explain the collapse of WTC VII…but I can see how that may have eluded your notice, seeing as how you seem to be completely unaware that three WTC buildings collapsed on 9/11…
March 19th, 2007 at 1:22 pmI am not one who is claiming that parties other than Al Qaeda perpetrated the 9/11 attacks. That is Juan’s and your claim. Accordlingly, I have simply asked who you believe carried out the attacks and why.
Comment by Exley — March 19, 2007 @ 1:14 pm
And when I hear the air traffic controller’s tapes and find out why jets weren’t scrambled I’ll be able to make a judgment on the report you so firmly believe in.
March 19th, 2007 at 1:24 pmExley sez:
It’s not our responsibility to speculate as to the true identity of the perpetrators. All we need do is point out the gaping holes in the government’s argument, to prove that the government’s account of events is a lie.
March 19th, 2007 at 1:25 pmGee if demolition on the area had been postponed until proper investigations were finished perhaps the myriad of health problems that workers are suffering from now could have been avoiced.
But we since don’t get proper equipment to soldiers in Iraq I guess we were training for that at the disaster site.
March 19th, 2007 at 1:29 pmI have simply asked who you believe carried out the attacks and why.
Comment by Exley
Who: The government of the US.
Why: A lot of reasons, but principally for invading the second oil reservoir in the planet, while keeping US population under a permanent state of fear which is still effective until this day, as we see.
Dont shudder, Ex. It has happened before. Northwoods and the Sinking of the Maine. You are aliving in a terrorist state. What are you going to do about it?
March 19th, 2007 at 1:35 pmBTW, I live in a terrorist state too. If you have 60% of your population in poverty, you are a terrorist state, you dont need bombs to terrorize.
March 19th, 2007 at 1:45 pmTPM,
“It’s not our responsibility to speculate as to the true identity of the perpetrators.”
In other words, you have posited a theory that someone or some group perpetrated 9/11 and yet you offer no possible suspects or possible motive and offer as your only “proof” that WTC 7 collapsed after being bombarded with debris for the collapse of not one but two of the largest buildings in the world….
That’s some case you’ve present, TPM.
March 19th, 2007 at 1:46 pm#165, Okay, Juan…Let’s take a look at your theory….If the U.S. government wanted to perpetrate 9/11 in order to justify an invasion of Iraq, why didn’t it simply create a cover story that the attacks were directlty perpetrated by agents of Saddam Hussein’s intelligence apparatus? Why create this round-about conspiracy you propose by which the government says that Al Qaeda, based in Afghanistan, perpetrated the act? If the U.S. government wanted to invade Iraq with the backing and sympathy of the whole world (as we had when we invaded Afghanistan), wouldn’t the better plot been to have set up Saddam directly?
(p.s. Your theory that the U.S. deliberately blew up the Maine enjoys no historical or factual basis).
March 19th, 2007 at 1:53 pmExley sez:
Wrong. I have posited no such thing. I am merely challenging the government’s account of events. I don’t need to provide an alternate theory to show that the government-sponsored theory is bogus. Your assertion that I do displays a serious deficiency of rational thought on your part.
WTC 5 and 6 took a much heavier bombardment, but remained standing, despite their relatively less robust construction.
And who said that was the ‘only’ evidence? Oh…right…it was you.
(BTW, you still haven’t addressed the issue of the molten steel found in the elevator shafts yet…)
March 19th, 2007 at 1:58 pm#150 You are going to use people that stayed in an area against the demand of government as an example that the Federal government took away our freedom? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA. So we are free to demand the government provide handouts so we can continue to not leave an area a hurricane is coming for? I guess we are actually free to demand anything we want as this is a very free country. Luckily, we are also free to tell them to get bent. The Katrina situation, if anything, shows us once again to not have faith in government beuracracy’s both State and Federal. As if most of us needed to relearn that lesson again. Either way, a failed government beuracracy doesn’t even kinda show someone taking away our freedom. It simply shows that we need to limit government because it mostly doesn’t work and it mostly fails us when we need it. Suprise suprise.
March 19th, 2007 at 2:00 pmHave to go, Ex. Later. But thanks for the discussion.
March 19th, 2007 at 2:03 pmTPM, It is my understanding (and I am sure you will challenge me on this) that the fires generated by the burning jet fuel was indeed hot enough to melt metall. It was that heat that melted the outer frame of the towers enough to cause them to buckle leading to the towers collapse.
March 19th, 2007 at 2:05 pm#171, Later, Juan….I do hope, though, you respond to my posting #168 when you return.
March 19th, 2007 at 2:08 pmComment by Exley — March 19, 2007 @ 1:53 pm
The chatter about a terrorist attack was loud and frequent and yet nobody did one thing in 9 months to try and prevent it. And on the day it occurred the President and VP wre safely tucked away. And the fighter jets had been sent away.
Exley, where are the air traffic controller tapes. Why weren’t jet’s scrambled. How long were those planes off course. While the government didn’t initiate the attacks the also did nothing to stop them.
And the first order of business they undertook was to whisk the Bin Ladin family out of the country.
If it walks like a duck, and sounds like a duck its a duck einstein.
March 19th, 2007 at 2:13 pmExley sez:
Indeed, Exley, I will.
First of all, do you know what jet fuel is?
It’s kerosene, Exley. Plain, pure kerosene, not substantially different from the kerosene used in your average space heater. Like space heaters, aircraft jet engines will do very unfortunate things when filled with more energetic, lower flash-point fuels, like gasoline.
Second, please read this letter sent by Kevin Ryan of Underwriters Laboratories to Frank Gayle of the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST). Kevin was summarily fired five days after sending this letter.
March 19th, 2007 at 2:17 pmComment by Roger_Roger — March 19, 2007 @ 2:00 pm
Tell me R2dumb how you leave a hurrican when you have no money, no credit card, and as is true in many cities no car or no gas. How do you leave. How far could you walk if you were 80 years old. No it wasn’t the fault of a government that didn’t enforce the levees or send buses to evacuate or help once the levees broke. Its the fault of the poor and elderly that were left to die.
March 19th, 2007 at 2:23 pmYou can’t get any more neocon than that.
And since your party is intent on obliterating the middle class to make the upper class wealthier how does your administration making so many more people poor square with democracy of action as in the ability to move away from another disaster.
That’s what you think democracy is, make them poorer, leave them unprotected, and don’t help them. That way they won’t be alive to vote against you. Some great and free country you neocons have created.
But YOU HAVE YOUR TAX BREAKS so life is good.
Asswipe.
Yes, TPM, I have seen Mr. Ryan being interviewed regarding his letter. He seems to discount or ignore how the structural damage to the to towers caused by the impact of a commercial airliner could have contributed ti the collapse. But I am not an engineer or a metallurgist. On the other hand, there are numerous experts who disagree with Ryan and contend the impact of the aircraft, the amount of jet fuel, the burning of materials inside the building (desks, carpet, computers, paper, etc.) were sufficient to cause the towers to collapse.
Have you seen Nova’s “How The Towers Fell” and “Building on Ground Zero?” They seem to answer many of your questions and concerns regarding the collapse of the WTC towers.
Here is a good Web site related to those programs:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/
If you look, right there on the homepage, there is a portion that deals with some of the conspiracy theories related to the collapse.
March 19th, 2007 at 2:34 pmExley sez:
Tell us, Exley…how exactly does the crash of an airliner into a steel-framed structure alter the melting point of the structural steel?
March 19th, 2007 at 2:48 pmTPM, I didn’t say that now, did I?
Now, I will await your reaction to the information I have provided.
March 19th, 2007 at 2:52 pmExley sez:
Well, you certainly seem to have, since you seem to think: airliner crash + subsequent jet fuel fire = molten steel found in elevator shafts weeks after the collapse.
March 19th, 2007 at 2:55 pm#177 You obviously didn’t read my post. I clearly stated that Katrina once again proved that our Government beuracracy failed us. I was simply responding that the failure of a government beuracracy doesn’t in any way show Bush taking away our freedom, it simply shows that government fails.
We certainly can disagree on who should support the elderly and the poor however. The only failure of our government is a lack of education on how to save for retirement, bad situations, and proper insurance planning. That is our governments failure indeed as our schools are filled with worthless class when we should provide economics courses throughout highschool. The fact that some elderly in the country fail to save for retirement is not our governments fault in the sense we owe them something. This is where family comes into play and it should be the responsibility of there families to help them, not a strangers pocket. IN fact, Wisconsin now has a law that mandates the children pay for their parents long term care situations when they are old if the parents can’t pay themselves. This is how it should be. It is also not our governments fault that people failed to properly insure their homes, cars, and other valuable items either. If my house burns down by accident or because of nature, should government be there the next day with a check to fully reimburse me and put me up for 1-2 years? Are you cool with that? Guess I don’t need insurance anymore and I guess I can defund my retirement plan as big government can take care of me. Why should I have some responsibility in my own welfare? That is governments job alone! Now some were properly insured and the companies have refused to pay so I hope those folks are suing them as they should. Again, these are personal individual matters, not government issues.
Furthermore, are you trying to suggest all these people that got stranded in New Orleans were in fact attempting to leave 3-4 days before the storm hit? I have read no stories or articles discussing that. In fact, it shows just the opossite. Most (not all just most) even stated that they didn’t listen to the government and took it to themselves to not leave. Ignorance is no excuse in my world. Failing to listen to our governments warnings can be life threatening. Assuming that our government will bail you out instantly when you fail to listen in the first place would be your second error. In the end, government still could have done a better job helping the ignornant out but it doesn’t show them taking away our freedom. It simply teaches us the lesson that we need to be responsible for ourselves, save for our own retirement and health benefits, and properly insure ourselves against lose.
March 19th, 2007 at 3:10 pmTPM, As I said, I am not a structural engineer nor a metallurgist (Neither, I assume, are you…If I am wrong about that, I stand corrected).
What I was trying to say (perhaps unclearly) was that while Ryan seems to be saying that the heat caused by a jet fuel fire (He does not address the ancillary materials also being burned (carpets, desks, computers, aluminum from the aircraft)) would be insufficient to cause the metal to melt or soften enough to cause the towers to collapse, he does not address the idea that the structural damage to the metal frame of the building could mean that the building’s support was so warped by the impact that structural failure could occur when the metal reached temperatures lowers than would be necessary to cause the building collapse if its structural integrity were intact.
I don’t know if that is any clearer. It is (I admit) a convuluted way of trying to explain myself, but perhaps I got my point across.
March 19th, 2007 at 3:18 pmComment by Exley — March 19, 2007 @ 3:18 pm
Exley, all I can say to you at this point is that you really need to do some more research on the subject. Ryan does not address the ancillary components because addressing them is unnecessary. Nothing within that building could have burned hot enough to significantly weaken even unprotected steel, especially in the ridiculously short time between the impact and the collapse. All three WTC collapsed in exactly the same manner – straight down, at speeds virtually identical to that of free-fall, despite the radically different damage each jetliner did to its respective tower, and despite the fact that no jetliner impacted WTC7.
And after all this, we still have the problem of molten steel pooling in the elevator shafts weeks after the collapse.
And all of this is just one small facet of the myriad of inconsistencies, irregularities, absurdities, and impossibilities we bore witness to on 9/11.
March 19th, 2007 at 3:47 pmAll three WTC collapsed in exactly the same manner – straight down, at speeds virtually identical to that of free-fall, despite the radically different damage each jetliner did to its respective tower, and despite the fact that no jetliner impacted WTC7.
Actually, TPM, there is dispute about that. Some say the collapse of WTC 7 took more than 30 seconds based on seismic readings. That is considerably longer than the time it tool Towers 1 & 2 to fall. Like I said, take a look at the Nova Web site. It may address many of your questions.
March 19th, 2007 at 5:09 pmAnd there’s a huge illegal Irish immigrant problem in big cities but they look like us so nobody cares..
Comment by shane — March 19, 2007 @ 10:54 am
You’re bullshitting me? Illegal Irish imigrants? And here I thought that Ireland was doing well economically as a member of the EU!
Are they from the North or the South?
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