Gravel: ‘I Have My Suspicions’ That No Matter Who Is Elected ‘They’re Not Going To Get Out Of Iraq’
Gravel: ‘I Have My Suspicions’ That No Matter Who Is Elected ‘They’re Not Going To Get Out Of Iraq’
Former Sen. Mike Gravel (D-AK) served two terms in the Senate through the 1970s, a period marked by the U.S.’s struggle to end the Vietnam War. In 1971, when military analyst Daniel Ellsberg famously leaked the Pentagon Papers — which documented the “policymaking process that led to our deepening involvement in Vietnam” — Gravel, a war critic, audaciously read the documents into the Congressional Record to ensure that the public would have access to them.
Also in 1971, Gravel, “against the advice of Democratic leaders in the Senate, launched a one-man filibuster to end the peacetime military draft, forcing the administration to cut a deal that allowed the draft to expire in 1973.”
Now, he’s running for President. He told us last weekend that he thought the Iraq redeployment provision attached to the House and Senate supplemental bills is “ridiculous legislation.” “We need to get out now,” Gravel said, adding that he had his “suspicions” that whoever is elected president in 2008 is “not going to get out of Iraq.”
“We are fighting over the ownership of the Titanic. That’s really what’s going on,” he said. “Keep in mind when Nixon got elected — he said I got a plan to end the war. Yeah, it took him four years. And we doubled the number of casualties under his tenure.” Gravel warned, “I suspect we’re going in the same direction.” Watch it:
Gravel also advocated a carbon tax. He said Americans should “keep in mind” that every time they fill up their gas tank, “you’re spending another $4.00 per gallon indirectly by maintaining American troops in 140 countries to stabilize the price of oil.”
Transcript:
GRAVEL: I think it’s ridiculous legislation. Truthfully, truthfully. Here, when they’re talking about getting out of Iraq next year, what about the people that die between now and then when they know they’re going to get out? What about the families of those people that going to get killed between now and then? We need to get out now.
A year from now isn’t going to make it any better. And I have my suspicions that — whether Democrats or Republicans — they’re not going to get out of Iraq, even after the election. I don’t care who’s elected.
We went in there for the control of oil. This was an oil war by George Bush. The Democrats bought into it in the Congress. And you think they’re going to give up this control of oil? I mean, the tragedy is, as national policy, we are fighting over the ownership of the Titanic. That’s really what’s going on. And so there’s no reason why we can’t get out.
But you can see the plan — if the Democrats were the force for ending the war between now and the end of George Bush’s term, what will happen — probably you’ll probably see a spike at the gasoline tank, at the gas station. So the Republicans will be able to point to the Democrats — oh, look what they did, horrible things happened to you, you’re paying more. Well, we ought to pay more.
People don’t know — when you’re at the gas tank next time filling up your car and you see anywhere from $2.50 to $3.50 per gallon, keep in mind that you’re spending another $4.00 per gallon indirectly by maintaining American troops in 140 countries to stabilize the price of oil.
Forget that. What we ought to do is get off of carbon. And I would advocate a carbon tax to address our energy problem and de facto our environmental problem.
Getting out of Iraq. All you need is the will to do it. Stop and think, the games that are being played. And every day you can go and see the faces of the young people who are dying and being maimed.
This is exactly what we through in Vietnam. Keep in mind when Nixon got elected — he said I got a plan to end the war. Yeah, it took him four years. And we doubled the number of casualties under his tenure. I suspect we’re going in the same direction.
And so when people talking about ending the war, I’m not talking about repositioning the troops. Bring them home. We don’t need to be the policeman of the world. We need to provide some leadership in fighting terrorism as a police problem. We need to deal with the drug problem. We need to deal with a whole host of global problems. And they’re done globally. They’re not done by the United States of America all by itself telling the world which way to part their hair. It just is not working. It cannot work. And as a result of that, our country is in serious decline. And we’re not even addressing that problem.
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This has to be the most progressive public person I have read in all my time here. Maybe Im wrong, I dont know his background but he is completely right. As long as the corporations keep running the government, there cant be public participation in the government. So, if corporations decide that US forces stay in Iraq cuz that brings business oportunities (we have all seen how wonderful Iraq has been built again, right?), Dem or Rep president cant change that.
March 31st, 2007 at 12:05 amHe is telling the truth unfortunately. If Sen. Hillary Clinton gets the presidency, then she will not pull the troops out because she thinks like Nixon that she can run the Iraq occupation better than Bush did. She knows ZERO about the military and will screw it up like Nixon did in Vietnam.
March 31st, 2007 at 12:08 amI agree with #2. No Hillary!
March 31st, 2007 at 12:14 amAnd who might get impeached someday? President Hillary Clinton, just like Nixon, for refusing to end a war that the previous president caused. Most Americans want the Iraq Fiasco War ended before Christmas of this year, but the Congress refuses to do it and Hillary will keep it going untill she gets impeached.
March 31st, 2007 at 12:17 amI REMEMBER MIKE GRAVEL—-HE’D MAKE A GREAT PRESIDENT, NOT LIKE THESE LILY-LIVERED PANTYWAISTS SASHAYING OR MINCING AROUND ON THE repugnant-repub SIDE AND THE DEMOCRATIC SIDE—-PLAIN SPEAKING AND FEARLESS!!!!! A GOOD TONIC TO PURGE THE POISON SPREAD IN AMERICA BY CHIMPya and Bushland Uber Allies NAZI-FASCIST CREEPS, ESPECIALLY THE TRAITOR Joe LIE-berman!!!!!
March 31st, 2007 at 12:21 amthank you, Think Progress, for highlighting Sen Gravel — i heard him being interveiwed by The Young Turks a loonnggg time ago when he announced his run for president. i loved what he had to say. no one has given him the time of day — until you did. i hope more hear what he has to say; i think they will like him and want to see/hear what his message is.
March 31st, 2007 at 12:22 amFrom Afghanistan to Iraq: Connecting the Dots with Oil
By Richard W. Behan, AlterNet. Posted February 5, 2007.
In the Caspian Basin and beneath the deserts of Iraq, as many as 783 billion barrels of oil are waiting to be pumped. Anyone controlling that much oil stands a good chance of breaking OPEC’s stranglehold overnight, and any nation seeking to dominate the world would have to go after it.
The long-held suspicions about George Bush’s wars are well-placed. The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq were not prompted by the terrorist attacks in New York and Washington. They were not waged to spread democracy in the Middle East or enhance security at home. They were conceived and planned in secret long before September 11, 2001 and they were undertaken to control petroleum resources.
March 31st, 2007 at 12:48 amSince announcing he was running for the Democratic nomination, Gravel has campaigned almost entirely in New Hampshire.
Through February 2007, opinion polls of contenders for the Democratic nomination have all shown Gravel with a 1% or less support level.
Sorry to say, but “Get out of Iraq now’ isn’t much of a story.
March 31st, 2007 at 12:59 am‘Man bites dog’ now that’s a story.
I like Gravel and I like what he says.
but, just you wait. people who get paid to write and talk about this stuff will knit him a big, stupid looking rhetorical sweater. Every damned time he talks people will chuckle and point out how silly he looks in that sweater. you know, like everybody does about Kucinich.
it’s just a matter of time.
March 31st, 2007 at 1:00 amEvery damned time he talks people will chuckle and point out how silly he looks in that sweater. you know, like everybody does about Kucinich.
it’s just a matter of time.
Comment by cage free brown
At least we don’t have to worry about Rove ever being elected. Heh.
March 31st, 2007 at 1:05 amSomeone needs to to stop Gravel …He’s educating people like teachers would try and do…. Damn TEACHERS… Taking the blinders off of people, enableing them to think on ther own with out the MEDIA telling them what to think….TERRORIST, TERRORIST, THINKING ON YOUR OWN!!!! Whats next!!!……Thinking on your own!!!….
March 31st, 2007 at 1:06 amThis is why it’s vital to get all the candidates on record their plan for Iraq.
March 31st, 2007 at 1:07 amTo leave just one person there,will take 75,000 troops to protect them.
Ray, I remember Mike Gravel, also. He continues to “tell it like it is”. Someone needs to take a step forward and push the no-petrocarbon issue. Mr. President, save our economy!! Hydrogen power now.
March 31st, 2007 at 1:13 amUnfortunately a straight shooter like former Sen. Gravel could never be elected President because the American people are just too damn stupid. This is the type of man the U.S. needs to get out of this mess.
March 31st, 2007 at 1:24 amWhat the heck was that?!?!? An honest assessment of the situation? It’s weird when straight talk comes from a man with a microphone and not one with a bogus bus isn’t it?
March 31st, 2007 at 1:28 amWe’re never leaving…..there’s that small matter of privatizing the oilfields for Exxon-Mobil, BP, Shell, etc. They’ll need US troops there to protect the wells and distribution system. That’s the law facing the Iraqi’s today…giving up 80% of their oil wealth to US/British interests.
March 31st, 2007 at 1:33 amI have said this a few times here. We will never leave Iraq. In fact we are going to expand our position there…
http://www.youtube.com/v/Wmce6KmFh6o
This…
http://www.youtube.com/v/4fo3sxhBylw
is the reason why.
March 31st, 2007 at 2:12 amHe is quite correct. We are not leaving Iraq anytime soon. Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid intentionally put forth a bill that Bush will be forced to veto. They will make a public spectacle of Bush’s refusal to work in a bipartisan manner and then throwing their hands up in exasperation they will eventually sign a bill that funds the war. This will further weaken the republican presidency and provide momentum for the 2008 election. It will also leave some wiggle room for Clinton or Obama by not forcing them to leave a record on extending an unpopular war or backing a pull out that could potentially escalate into chaos in the middle east.
March 31st, 2007 at 2:26 amGravel would be correct except for the fact that the USA has no other energy source available. So rather than a civil war in the US the military decided to beat the Russians, Europe and China to the oil and hold it. I would imagine that this…
March 31st, 2007 at 2:33 amhttp://www.usatoday.com/ news/ world/ iraq/ 2006-04-19-us-embassy_x.htm
will be the White House II once done.
People, listen up! I don’t know what you are talking about — and I don’t want to know. I’m keeping my eyes tight except enough to see what I am typing. But I refuse to read your character assassinating mean nastiness.
This is Ann Althouse. And I bring you a message.
—I voted for Clinton twice.
—I voted for Russ Feingold.
—There’s this little thing called “9/11.” Maybe you’ve heard of it???
I will have you know that Garance used tricks on my mind to make me explode like that. I mean, not explode. To make me call her out as a character assassinater, I mean.
Did you know that Barack Obama can infiltrate your mind and take over your thoughts? It’s true. Mark Schmitt said Barack Obama is just like Lex Luthor.
It’s true. See? Right here:
— http://bloggingheads.tv/ video.php?id=192&cid=952&in=42:00
I blogged about Obama’s mind-control powers here:
— http://althouse.blogspot.com/ 2007/ 01/ he-can-enter-your-space-and-organize.html
—Ann Althouse, Professor of Law
March 31st, 2007 at 3:36 amThank you Think Progress for posting this youtube of Mike Gravel.
He is someone I want to know about, follow and support.
I like what he has to say. He probably represents more of the electorate than any of the mainstream candidates.
The only thing lacking so far is the political machine to support him.
March 31st, 2007 at 3:54 am[…] Gravel: ‘I Have My Suspicions’ That No Matter Who Is Elected ‘They’re Not Going To Get Out Of Iraq’ March 31, 2007 Posted by politicalbuzzstaff in Uncategorized. trackback Gravel: ‘I Have My Suspicions’ That No Matter Who Is Elected ‘They’re Not Going To Get Out O… […]
March 31st, 2007 at 7:46 amHe’s got my vote.
March 31st, 2007 at 7:57 amthe world would be a much safer place with democrats in power - The world has had enough of Bush
March 31st, 2007 at 8:15 amWe can rectify our “stupid voter” problem by moving the 29% of hardcore wingers into their own country. May I suggest Texas, which has never been a real part of the U.S.? We can airlift the cool people out and put the brain-damage cases there. America’s voters would suddenly be as smart as any in the world, and the wingers down in Texas would soon kill each other off.
March 31st, 2007 at 8:34 amAnd remember its pull COMBAT troops out
that does not include the Blackwater republican guards also leaving support troops as in the coalition
quite simply pulling combat troops out is a cleverly worded TRICK
Its a complete withdrawal Iraq needs , they need to get their lifes together this was the worst thing ever and Bush should be put in history as a mass murderer
March 31st, 2007 at 8:49 am$4.00 a gal? Is he getting us ready for the price increase? Not that I don’t see it coming.
Unfortunately it’s too late to save anything. If we would have implemented Carter’s plan of conservation and a Manhattan Project for alternative fuels we may have had a chance of saving civilization to some extent. But that ship left the dock a long time ago and since then we’ve only managed only to excellerate the problem by doing just the opposite of what would be needed.
Between population explosion and the depletion of natural resources the changes that are occurring no species of mammal will be able to keep up with. We’re adaptable, but we’re no so adaptable that we will learn how to live with clean air, water and no food.
It’s been a nice run but we blow it.
March 31st, 2007 at 8:49 amElect Kucinich and we will be out of Iraq. He has a proven record of integrity and is the only candidate not owned by the corporate oligarcy.
March 31st, 2007 at 8:57 amI agree completely - THE only candidate running now who will end this debacle in Iraq is KUCINICH. We know Hillary is pro-war so she’s out of the question. The Rethugs will maintain the war for the same reasons & rational Bush is standing firm: His Supreme Ego and his inability to admit he’s made a dire mistake.
Personally, I believe that our next President isn’t even “on the radar screen” yet - the ones already announced will, one way or another, be shot down (Guliani because of Kerick and underworld ties, Hillary because of her pro-war stance, Edwards because of his wife’s medical problems, Romney because he is a Mormon, McCain because he is a liar, Obama because he is still naive and inexperienced) I do believe that Obama would make an excellent Veep, however.
Who will the true “dark horse” be??? I have my suspicions…do you?
March 31st, 2007 at 9:04 amP.S. Of course, some of these candidates have some “factual dirt” which will be unleashed when/if they become “the candidate”, as we all know. Some shouldn’t even be wasting their energy and mucho dinero.
March 31st, 2007 at 9:05 amGravel has gravitas….he’s experienced from Vietnam and knows what’s going on inside of things and the more I read about him, the more I like his candor and honesty about things. Let’s know some more about this guy….
March 31st, 2007 at 9:07 amUnfortunately, the guy is probably right.
All the big money is already being grabbed by candidates who are well connected to the people and organizations/corporations who have money. It is really depressing that the ones we wil get to select from in a primary will certainly be already beholden to interests other than the American People. Of course they all claim and have brainwashed most that their aims/profits etc. are in America’s interest.
The candidates that we will get to choose from will already be in the Industrial-Military complex’ pocket in some way. Hillary is not the one to vote for, but look who has the most money.
Frankly, I don’t see how we get out of this without publicly funded and capmaing length controlled elections.
Anyway, the only way that we will be completely out of Iraq is the same way that eventually we got completely out of Viet Nam (- no it was NOT “Peace with honor” Nixon - it was during Ford’s time): Congress stopped funding the effort.
The bill coming before Bush for war funding actually gives hiim every thing that he wants short term, except for acknowledgement that he is a dictator in all things war and security. For either current Congress bill, if some real or manufactured “were being attacked bt Iran” scenario comes out, he will still get the funding and Congress will ammend any time table language. It’s Gulf of Tonkein” all over - - Congress does not have the fortitude or Democrats the numbers to hold the line in a perceived attack.
Bush just keeps this tantrum/charade going because he wants to be left alone to be dictator and have no oversight over anything he does.
It is really quite depressing. We the people have to stop delegating our responsibilities and figure out a way to break the current power structure and take the country back….but it is a daunting task and needs more concerted effort than any of us who are not already connected to power have time to do. It’s why we tend to back poopulist candidates early - but we are always scared into backing the money men eventually.
March 31st, 2007 at 9:10 am“The Democratic Party is forfeiting the public’s trust with its unrelenting commitment to keep the war going when it obviously has the power to end it…The Democrats have bought the war from an Administration that lied to get us there…If the Democratic Party had told the American people last October, ‘Vote Democratic and we’ll keep the war going through the end of President Bush’s term,’ there would still be a Republican majority in Congress. But the Democrats led the American people to believe that they would end the war.”
-Dennis Kucinich
March 31st, 2007 at 9:11 amWe need to see more names than these people who are running now…Still early to run…
We need candidate who are not party line all the way…
candidates who put America first…
candidates who regain America’s prestige and postion worldwwide…
candidates who know some economics ..
candidates who look after the forgotten middle class,workers.
Candidates who give break to the needy and not the wealthy.
candidates who are not bought by certain groups..who are independent in their decision in war and peace.
Candidates who look for the support and cooperation of the Congress,not the ones who want to hide just about everything from Congress.
We have a large number of candidatesrunning from both parties…but none of them really worth voting for….I hope more names enter the race…because it is good for America
March 31st, 2007 at 9:17 am#1 And we all know that this government is “corporation-driven” at this point because the war machine profiteering trumps all else.
March 31st, 2007 at 9:21 am#32 Larry….Thanks for the Dennis Kucinich quote! He’s absolutely right and it’s time that some Dems begin distancing themselves from this Congress. As time elapses, this Congress will be getting more egg on their face with their stalling tactics and the subversion of duty to the electorate who mandated the end to this war.
March 31st, 2007 at 9:22 am#33 That’s true. We need some other individuals to announce their candidacy because this early group is spinning out already. Other than Obama and he’s weak on the experience side of things. I still do not see someone strong enough (AND HONEST ENOUGH) to vote for in the slate of current candidates.
March 31st, 2007 at 9:24 amI’m hoping that others interested in running are simply waiting for this group to implode which is happening as things about each of them comes to the fore. The latest, of course, is Guiliani’s ties to organized crime. Frankly, if 911 had never happened where it did, no one would know his name or care who he is. Was this also a plan of the 911 enablers? Could certainly have been.
His HUGE mistake which will cost him the presidency is his affiliation with Bernie Kerrick whom everyone knew from the outset belonged on the set of the Sopranos and definitely NOT head of Homeland Security! Anyone with a brain could easily see that from this guy’s demeanor, swagger and rep.
Besides, when your own son publicly criticizes you as a human being for your dereliction of duty as a parent, that’s also pretty indicting. Guiliani doesn’t have a chance at this point.
Factor in his mistress/wife whom he was screwing while still married and the public sees another “Scarlet Letter”.
March 31st, 2007 at 9:27 amGuiliani, Romney, Gingrich & McCain are non-contenders with all of their baggage.
March 31st, 2007 at 9:29 amDemocrat Comerades - Go to http://www.smirkingchimp.com and read the article “Movement of One or Maybe a Million” and it tells it all. I was wondering what happened to John Conyers and his impeachment movement. Evidently, Pelosi scrubbed it and has thwarted him from moving forward with it.
Perhaps it’s time to encourage a true “anti-war candidate” like Kucinich or Gore?? Perhaps it’s time to save this democracy? Perhaps it’s already too late??
March 31st, 2007 at 9:32 amThis has to be the most progressive public person I have read in all my time here.
Comment by Juan C — March 31, 2007 @ 12:05 am
I just finished reading teh thread and I was thinking pretty much along the same lines. I was also thinking of how the ones like this (and Kucinich) who are saying the reasonable stuff have no shot in hell of getting elected, and how that’s too bad. It’s further proof that whatever America was once meant to be, it no longer is…
I read an article in the summer of 1996, that in the 1900’s, at the end of every Presidential election, the taller of the two candidates won the job. The point of the article was to demostrate that people see height as an equivalent to authority and power. So, that doesn’t bode well for Kucinich.
And, well I think age will be a problem for Gavel. Darwin was right about sexual selection - right down to the way we pick our leaders… Pretty sells. It’s why the neocons are assaulting Edwards and Obama’s good looks. They have no one remotely handsome on tehir end (well, Mitt Romney doesn’t count because you know they won’t elect a - gasp - Mormon… What’s next? Muslims? Atheists? Please… The Catholic Anti Christ Donahue threatened a hotel that was going to display a chocolate Jesus sans loin cloth to the point that they stopped the exhibit out of fear for their own safety… Yes, America is on her death bed when men like Jefferson don’t stand a chance to be President anymore . Sad.).
March 31st, 2007 at 9:40 amWe’re never getting out of Iraq. Technically, we don’t even know who “WE” is…
“To the great satisfaction on the war industry, before Rumsfeld resigned he took the extraordinary step on classifying private contractors as an official part of the US war machine…It defined the “Department’s Total Force†as “its active and reserve military components, its civil servants, and its contractors—constituting its warfighting capability and capacity…This formal designation represented a major triumph for war contractors—conferring on them a legitimacy they had never before enjoyed.”
-Jeremy Scahill author of Blackwater: The Rise of the World’s Most Powerful Mercenary Army
March 31st, 2007 at 9:44 am#39 Veritas: I was wondering what happened to John Conyers and his impeachment movement. Evidently, Pelosi scrubbed it and has thwarted him from moving forward with it.
I heard Pelosi threatened Conyers with removing him as head of the Judiciary committee if he pursued impeachment.
March 31st, 2007 at 9:48 amIts all about the OIL.
Our kids getting killed so Repukes can drive their Hummers.
Hitlery already says the war will go on if she wins.
March 31st, 2007 at 9:48 am“To the extent a population is called upon to go to war, there is resistance, a necessary resistance to prevent wars of self-aggrandizement, foolish wars and in the case of the United States, hegemonic imperialist wars. Private forces are almost a necessity for a United States bent on retaining its declining empire.â€
“When you’re bringing in contractors whom the law doesn’t apply to, the Geneva Conventions, common notions of morality, everything’s thrown out the window…And what it means is that those contractors are really an arm of the Administration and its policies.â€
-Dennis Kucinich
March 31st, 2007 at 9:57 amUnB, I think you can find the same examples in most countries in the world where you have “democracy”.
The vote goes for the most sympathetic guy or woman (rarely). In Mexico we just had 6 years of Vicente Fox´s presidency. He was a colorful, peasant-talking guy which was kind of a lesser CEO of Coke Company: a moron.
But hey, he made us laugh sometimes, so I guess he was going to be a good president. And the same cases can be found almost elsewhere. It´s all about publicity now. Nobody cares about background, proposals, ideas, etc. And, if we care, we care about the personal or the gossip stuff.
March 31st, 2007 at 9:59 am#42 That’s an appalling derelection of duty to the people, if this is accurate. I do recall that Conyers movement was steamrolling and then came to a screeching halt. It was my impression that Pelosi couldn’t personally become involved in impeachment as she would be the one benefitting from it (with Cheney & Bush gone, the Speaker of the House would ascend to the Presidency) but perhaps this is not so. I’ve heard the Democratic nonsense about the time & distraction theory of impeachment but whatever happened to “listening to the people” who have absolutely no faith in the Bush administration of lies and deceit at this point and are beginning to lose faith in this new Congress as well???? And, it’s clear that “cutting our losses” in this illegal, amoral war is NOT what the candidates are espousing. But it makes perfect sense since KUCINICH IS THE ONLY CANDIDATE WHO DID NOT ENABLE THIS WAR TO BEGIN WITH. Obama was not in a position to vote yea or nay….so clearly, it’s a case of these candidates having supreme egos and not being able to admit that they made a critical error in judgment (Hillary, Biden, Edwards, Kerry, McCain) and actually become now “complicit enablers” of this war. They’re hoist on their own pitard at this point in having abrogaded their duty to the people. What we definitely DO NOT need is another war monger, egomaniac in the white house! We’ve had 6 years of this bully and cannot afford to have any more.
March 31st, 2007 at 10:01 amP.S. And the case can be made that Hillary, having been in the white house and up-close-and-personal with all of the things leading up to this war via background, SHOULD HAVE BEEN EVEN MORE AWARE than the others who did not have the benefit of sitting in a position of knowledge for 8 years leading up to this war. Besides, we all know that Hillary was a staunch Republican in her early years and, as far as I can see, still espouses some of their rhetoric and obstinacy.
March 31st, 2007 at 10:03 amTom3, I look at it as our military getting killed and our Treasury being depleted so Exxon/Mobil and Chevron can sell the spoils of that war we paid for in blood and treasure back to us and pick our pockets in the process. We’re being screwed on the front end and on the back end. Mission Accomplished.
Meanwhile, the only “death tax” being levied is on the families of the fallen. Not only do the wealthy not send their children, they don’t want to pay taxes either. They just sit back and watch their oil holdings go up: blood money.
March 31st, 2007 at 10:03 am“Is been virtually impossible to shine a light on this aspect of the war (Blackwater mercenaries) and so when we discuss the war, its scope, its costs, its risks, they have not been part of this whatsoever. This whole shadow force that’s been operating in Iraq, we know almost nothing about. I think it keeps at arm’s length from the American people what this war is all about.â€
—Democratic Representative Jan Schakowsky.
March 31st, 2007 at 10:05 amWhat we definitely cannot afford is another presidency which is clouded by the darkness of corruption and the case can be adequately made that those “enablers of this war” should be held personally accountable for their error in judgment which amounted to genocide in Iraq as well as the needless death of now 3,200 of our own military. If the people hold these Congressional Enablers responsible for their aid in this criminal action, then the class action suit BY THE PEOPLE would include all those who voted “yes” for this war. If a “yes voter” happens to be sitting in the white house at the time of this mass “accountability” to the people, then they, too, will share this cloud of corruption which presently shrouds this administration and alienates it from THE PEOPLE.
March 31st, 2007 at 10:07 am#49 This “shadow force” of paid mercenaries is nothing more than Bush “exporting terror” - smoke & mirrors to defraud the public and keep them uninformed about what’s really happening with the consent of and under the auspices of the US military.
March 31st, 2007 at 10:08 amMeanwhile, the only “death tax†being levied is on the families of the fallen. Not only do the wealthy not send their children, they don’t want to pay taxes either. They just sit back and watch their oil holdings go up: blood money.
Comment by trippin
But we all celebrate democracy. Which is nothing more than an evolved feudalism.
March 31st, 2007 at 10:09 amUnB, I think you can find the same examples in most countries in the world where you have “democracyâ€.
Pretty much, as we’ve been saying, why Marx wrote his Manifesto… Because Capitalism in theory does not take into consideration greed and ego…
The vote goes for the most sympathetic guy or woman (rarely). In Mexico we just had 6 years of Vicente Fox´s presidency. He was a colorful, peasant-talking guy which was kind of a lesser CEO of Coke Company: a moron.
So nothing ever came out of the challenge of the last election? The US stopped covering it after the interest in the drama wore off and something new took its place. What ever happened?
But hey, he made us laugh sometimes, so I guess he was going to be a good president. And the same cases can be found almost elsewhere. It´s all about publicity now. Nobody cares about background, proposals, ideas, etc. And, if we care, we care about the personal or the gossip stuff.
Comment by Juan C — March 31, 2007 @ 9:59 am
Yes… True. I was in Europe in 1998 and there were several elections going on. Notably - Germany was electing their Chancellor. There was less about their election and more about the Clinton-Lewinsky affair headlining the papers even there…
March 31st, 2007 at 10:14 amJuanC, I would make a distinction between democracy and capitalism. I would attribute the feudalism to unchecked capitalism: economic Darwinism taken to the limit.
Democracy should function as a check to that feudalism, until the underpinnings of that democracy are eroded by the influence of money from the capitalists seeking deregulation and utter subservience of workers.
Don’t get me wrong, I think capitalism can be a good thing, but only under the guidance of a strong government that tailors it to benefit the public good instead of the few at the very top of the wealth pyramid.
And I would celebrate democracy as capitalism’s best restraint if it ever reflects the will of the people as intended.
March 31st, 2007 at 10:20 amIN other news this morning:
Iranian official: Sailors may be tried
By NASSER KARIMI, Associated Press Writer
1 minute ago
Some observations:
1. this is a heck of a lot faster than the 5 years it took Bush to hold his first Military Commission “trial” at Guantanamo.
2. if the sailors were subjected to “coercive interrogations” who are we to complain?
3. much has been made of the British assertion that the were captured in Iraqi waters. But, were they at all times outside of Iranian waters? Or did the Iranians cross over into Iraqi waters to capture them while in hot pursuit?
4. Iran could use hearsay evidence, including evidence elicited under torture to convict the sailors and they would be merely following Bush’s lead. The sailors’ confessions already publicised would be sufficient to convict them.
5. Iran could use classified evidence to convict the sailors, again by following Bush’s lead.
6. Iran could prevent the sailors from challenging the evidence after conviction, following Bush’s model in his Military Commissions Act.
7. The sailors could be executed following a truncated appeals process.
Bush said the world would be better off if all nations adopted his Military Commissions Act. The above is a real-world example of Bush’s view of a better world.
On the other hand, Iran could claim the moral high ground by treating the sailors humanely and giving them a fair trial, where all evidence is open to the public and the sailors are allowed to challenge the evidence and put on a defense of their own.
And so we are faced with this; do we hope and pray that a Muslim country does not follow the lead of a “Christian” country?
March 31st, 2007 at 10:25 amSorry for the repeat post, I thought the spam filter had eaten the first one.
March 31st, 2007 at 10:26 amI Like Rep. Kucinich, and voted for him in the primary election in 2004, but he cannot be elected president because the corporate press trashes him. American voters are basically being manipulated to caste their ballots for pre-chosen candidates who are beholden to Military Industrial Complex.
March 31st, 2007 at 10:26 amI saw Dennis Kucinich speak last night, along with his wife, in thePacific Northwest. Both he and Mike Gravel have the right idea, to get those troops out of Iraq as soon as possible. Kucinich has also separated himself from the other Democratic candidates regarding health insurance, since the plan involving health care of the other candidates would benefit the insurance companies while Kucinich proposes a single payer system. An advantage that Kucinich has is the addition of his wife Elizabeth, who is not only photogenic but is also intelligent, erudite and charming. If Kucinich or Gravel does not get the nomination, then it would appear that those holding an anti-war position should seriously consider voting for the Green Party candidate.
March 31st, 2007 at 10:34 amSorry for the repeat post, I thought the spam filter had eaten the first one.
Comment by unbelievable — March 31, 2007 @ 10:26 am
Now they are all gone again… Jesus…
March 31st, 2007 at 10:48 amSome shouldn’t even be wasting their energy and mucho dinero.
Comment by veritas — March 31, 2007 @ 9:05 am
At least with Gore (is that who you are referring to) and Edwards we know what dirt they have already. And anything new they bring up can be fought with why didn’t they expose it before.
But the fact is nobody fights dirty like Republicans and in order to not get stuck with another Bush, progressives may need to make some concessions.
March 31st, 2007 at 11:02 amYes, Kucinich is beginning to look like the “dark horse” who will move to the forefront by distancing himself with the “status quo” apparently in Congress and among the other pro-war candidates. Just like in the 1970’s, the Anti-war movement is rapidly expanding and will engulf this presidency just as it did during Nixon’s. It’s becoming clear that this administration and this Congress is definitely NOT IN TOUCH with the pulse of american, once again, and sadly to say.
Perhaps a Kucinich/Gravel ticket may be just the thing???
We now have billions of americans sans health care coverage which means that we’ve reached a “critical mass” proportion with this problem. The candidate who is clearly “anti war” which also means not backpeddling on their mistaken vote to enable this war (clearly eliminating most of the candidates at this point) (One who backpeddles speaks with “forked tongue”)….and who has a health care plan for ALL americans and “legal immigrants” will be the winner by a longshot in 08.
These two issues are THE two most important issues to americans today.
March 31st, 2007 at 11:04 amEdwards did vote “yes” and joins the “enabler list”; however, Gore did not vote so I don’t know what “dirt” to which you refer, Shane. As far as I can tell, Gore is beginning to look like An American Prophet at this point because all he predicted has come to fruition. Gore has clearly achieved ‘rock star status’ with americans and has done more for our international problem of diplomacy and connection than Bush has done in 6 years.
March 31st, 2007 at 11:06 amPulling the South Africans out?
South Africans soldiers in the British Army are facing a tough choice: Stay in their jobs and be labelled as ‘mercenaries’ or quit and go home?
Thats a real blow to the UK
March 31st, 2007 at 11:20 amok number 7… you have the part about the wars right…now connect the last dot
9/11, which was the springboard for all of der shrubenfuherer’s warmongering, was AN INSIDE JOB.
Larry Silverstien made BILLIONS for the destrucction of the WTC, which, according to architects and engineers, would ultimately have COLLAPSED on its OWN WEIGHT because of the way it was constructed and designed. If it falls on its own or is demolished, NO INSURANCE MONEY.
But… if it falls in an attack…ooooowie…BILLIONS of insurance.
LOOK at the number of poele who made BiLLIONs in stock puts
Look at the 13 BILLION given away to the airlines for their cooperation– phony flight manifests anyone?
THE ENTIRE THING WAS A SET UP SO THAT CHENEYBURTON COULD STAGE THEIR WAR AND LOOT THE TREASURY, DESTROY THE ARMY AND THE UNITED STATES WITH IT, PAVING THE WAY FOR THE ONE WORLD GOVERNMENT OF THE NEW WORLD ORDER.
Canada, Mexico and the US are AS WE WRITE THIS being consoidated into one big happy trade zone where bankers and billionaires will finally consign the rest of the human race to work camps and a $1 a day existence.
Coming soon to a neighborhodd near you…but first… WWII… to be launched by mid April in Iran. Large parts of the United States will be destroyed by nuclear warheads (provided by the U.S. of course), martial law will be declared and 30 million americans will be whisked into the concentration camps that have been built by Helliburton.
March 31st, 2007 at 11:26 amComment by veritas — March 31, 2007 @ 11:06 am
I am talking about the Rovian “fakedirt” like Swift Boating Republicans will dig up. Gore is clearly the most immune and my personal choice.
March 31st, 2007 at 11:28 amSecond time:
So nothing ever came out of the challenge of the last election?
There is probably more awareness in the general population about political issues, but still we are light years from US or Europe political culture. We just dont care. While are you shocked about a lying government, corruption, etc, we just take that for a fact. We are probably the lest naive people in the world, but our governments trust on our laziness to perpetuate themselves in power.
What ever happened?
Comment by unbelievable
The usual thing: Nothing. We are dead men/women walking in Latinamerica.
Democracy should function as a check to that feudalism, until the underpinnings of that democracy are eroded by the influence of money from the capitalists seeking deregulation and utter subservience of workers.
Comment by trippin
Exactly.
Don’t get me wrong, I think capitalism can be a good thing,
I do not. Proof? 4 billion poor people in the world and growing.
but only under the guidance of a strong government that tailors it to benefit the public good instead of the few at the very top of the wealth pyramid.
the problem with that argument is that there are NOT governments in the world anymore. The world, the political decisions, the economic system is ruled by corporations. Governments are but the police and a facade of those corporations. It is really evident. Free trade is a myth. There cant be trade when corporations just exchange products and services between themselves.
Now, a democracy means people participating in the government´s decisions. When was the last time you did that? When you only push a button every four years, it cant be called democracy. What governments dont want, because it disrupts corporations plans, is the involvement of people in government affairs. Involvement of people means socialism. When was the last time you heard the word socialism in a good way in your country?
I agree with your post, trippin.
March 31st, 2007 at 11:40 amSo nothing ever came out of the challenge of the last election?
There is probably more awareness in the general population about political issues, but still we are light years from US or Europe political culture. We just dont care. While are you shocked about a lying government, corruption, etc, we just take that for a fact. We are probably the lest naive people in the world, but our governments trust on our laziness to perpetuate themselves in power.
What ever happened?
March 31st, 2007 at 11:47 amComment by unbelievable
The usual thing: Nothing. We are dead men/women walking in Latinamerica.
Democracy should function as a check to that feudalism, until the underpinnings of that democracy are eroded by the influence of money from the capitalists seeking deregulation and utter subservience of workers.
March 31st, 2007 at 12:01 pmComment by trippin
Exactly.
Sorry, for the repetition.
March 31st, 2007 at 12:03 pmThere is probably more awareness in the general population about political issues, but still we are light years from US or Europe political culture. We just dont care.
I wouldn’t aim to be like us… :)
While are you shocked about a lying government, corruption, etc, we just take that for a fact. We are probably the lest naive people in the world, but our governments trust on our laziness to perpetuate themselves in power.
I don’t think it’s the lying that shocks us - we know that’s to be expected to some degree - it’s the fact that NOTHING is EVER the truth and all the worse stuff they are doing - wars, torture, raping We The People.
So why is your culture so content to tolerate it? It’s becoming our problem too, because rather than fight many just come here illegally and the middle class is the one who has to carry them in terms of health care and education. I’d be more inclinded to sympathize if I saw Mexicans doing something in Mexico or, if they cannot, at leats coming here legally so they can contribute to the systems that they enjoy.
I know this isn’t where our conversation started… so back to that… You’re there by choice. Why do you stay and tolerate it considering how politically aware and active you are? I don’t understand that.
The usual thing: Nothing. We are dead men/women walking in Latinamerica.
Comment by Juan C — March 31, 2007 @ 11:47 am
That’s too bad, it seems like the people were actually pissed off enough to make something happen, and I hoped they would as an epiphany to all people who are run by corrupt regimes.
March 31st, 2007 at 12:20 pmEasy fix? Don’t elect Hillary. Ever. Isn’t that what he’s implying? I think he is.
March 31st, 2007 at 12:44 pmI agree with him. If the Democrats have any plans to get totally out of Iraq, they would be defunding the Disneyland-style Embassy that is being built and also defund all the permanent military bases being built there. I am a Democrat and I am worried that they all plan on staying there to guard the oil. The only candidate for President who says “get out now and stay out” is Dennis Kusinich. I really wish the media would give him more press time. He is a legitimate candidate even though he isn’t as good looking as the other candidates. But, then, that may not be the reason. Guiliani and McCain are about as unattractive as any man can be and they are given press. I guess the press is just plain scared of Kusinich.
March 31st, 2007 at 12:52 pmYou’re there by choice. Why do you stay and tolerate it considering how politically aware and active you are? I don’t understand that.
Comment by unbelievable
I dont tolerate it just because I stay here. Where do I have to go in order to not tolerate it? I stay here and criticize everything I see. There is a lot of discomfort, but not activism, which is a further step towards people participation. Now, who says I am aware of anything? ;)
South America has far more political culture than Mexico, thats why they had dictatorships, because there was no other way to stop the people other than torturing thousands. The same in Central America. People organized against corrupt governments and foreign corporatios (well, they were slaves), and suddenly you have Negroponte training dead squads. The level of repression in any country is a good indicator of how well the people involve in government affairs. Governments just cant allow it.
I know, illegal migration is a sensitive issue for US citizens. I think I would think the same as you, given the case. But these people have been under opression since Columbus. While NorthAmerican indians were almost exterminated, Spanish conquerers mixed with them and, after killing millions, let the rest to live in order to work as slaves. Now, try to explain about legal papers to a guy whose family is starving to death. It is not a simple issue, of course.
March 31st, 2007 at 1:08 pmPeople,
March 31st, 2007 at 1:15 pmClearly few of you understand the gravity of our situation in the USA. Once we started to import more than 50% of our energy we were finished as a nation of power and hope. It does not matter how much a gallon of fuel costs what does matter is obtaining that gallon of fuel. Each day the demand for energy rises but at the same time the supply stays the same or falls.
This creates a shortfall and till present 3rd world populations paid the burden by living in harsh poverty. Many in Africa have been starved to death so that both Dems and Repubs in the USA could have plastic, medicine, SUVs, 5,0000 sq. ft. homes and HDTV. It became necessary to create an enemy that happens to be located at all the functioning wells around the globe called “TERRORISTSâ€.
Hitler had the same position as the USA does. He lacked the resources needed to bring his population out of deep poverty. His population was mostly unemployed and the basic reason was the same as WWI and that was OIL too. A country that has the will but does not have the resources is forced to acquire those resources by any means necessary or the result is civil war and mass starvation.
Without enough oil we will have a civil war in the US. When Bush mentions fighting terrorists abroad he is actually saying that loosing the oil is not an option since it would cause the US to enter a “Super Depression†like the one Germany was in during the twenties and thirties. He (Bush) is forced to choose between survival and death for the US as a whole.
Should Bush be impeached the central issue will still remain and preventing the impending depression will only be possible through massive population reductions around the globe. Should the global population drop by 70 to 90% it may be possible for the remaining population to withstand the alternative to all of this; that alternative is EXTINCTION.
There would not have ever been 6.5 billion humans on the Earth if not for fossil fuel. If the fuel is removed then the systems depending on that fuel will all collapse. We will not be able to make the materials to build the machines that move the materials, etc. The government here will be forced to protect itself through Marshall Law.
OPEC is presently shifting to the Euro Dollar and this is enough to DESTROY America. We are about to see material shortages of all things (all things depend on oil) since we require energy that we do not possess. For the record I’m not talking about morals here. I’m talking about survival of the fittest and the smartest and so are they (repubs and dems) only they can’t just come out and say it!
I dont tolerate it just because I stay here. Where do I have to go in order to not tolerate it? I stay here and criticize everything I see. There is a lot of discomfort, but not activism, which is a further step towards people participation. Now, who says I am aware of anything? ;)
I meant, why do you live there… Didn’t you say you aren’t a citizen, or was I confusing what you said? I’m just thinking that when things get that bad here, I wouldn’t stay here, and I’m from here :)
South America has far more political culture than Mexico, thats why they had dictatorships, because there was no other way to stop the people other than torturing thousands. The same in Central America. People organized against corrupt governments and foreign corporatios (well, they were slaves), and suddenly you have Negroponte training dead squads. The level of repression in any country is a good indicator of how well the people involve in government affairs. Governments just cant allow it.
I’m still expecting to see real Communism rise, because I think Marx was precient that the corruption from Capitalism would be its inevitable collapse. It seems that thing are more likely to go that direction in a country (or countries) where people are starving and murdered, and not yet in places (like here) where they aren’t. But, I suppose doing nothing and tolerating it is also an alternative… Not one I’d expect from an animal that has evolved into a predator - especially with numbers on their side - but I think religion has to factor in, which Marx didn’t fully consider since he was an Atheist…. It’s just interesting (disturbing) to see what people will tolerate… I think I just have a much lower threshold :), so I don’t understand.
I know, illegal migration is a sensitive issue for US citizens. I think I would think the same as you, given the case. But these people have been under opression since Columbus. While NorthAmerican indians were almost exterminated, Spanish conquerers mixed with them and, after killing millions, let the rest to live in order to work as slaves. Now, try to explain about legal papers to a guy whose family is starving to death. It is not a simple issue, of course.
Comment by Juan C — March 31, 2007 @ 1:08 pm
I do agree, and think it’s why the rich elistists should be accountable (even though I know that they won’t be, because they can afford to fight it, even if assistance would ultimately be cheaper and more moral)… It was their quest for gold, after all, that expanded the European Empires west, and turned the Americas into what they are today. Also why I vilify Columbus - he was the savage…
I still think the ultimate root of our problems is our excessive population, and the feuds over natural resources that that has created - therefore needing ‘defense’ and leaders in control of defenses (who are almost never good people because they crave the power and control over others). If we could just stop the human virus from spreading further, and keep populations down to sustainable levels, a lot of this wouldn’t even exist…
The world has changed sooooo much in the last twenty years, I don’t even recognized it some days.
March 31st, 2007 at 1:28 pmSo unbelievable, are you saying that there should be population control? A cure to exterminate the human virus?
March 31st, 2007 at 1:57 pmIt’s just interesting (disturbing) to see what people will tolerate… I think I just have a much lower threshold :), so I don’t understand.
Comment by unbelievable
I think you are right on the spot. Church´s job is to keep people under a passive stance against unjustices, and to protest against what they see as a threat to their ruling power. People in Argentina are not as tolerant against government issues as Mexicans.
I still think the ultimate root of our problems is our excessive population, and the feuds over natural resources that that has created
Comment by unbelievable
I dont agree. I think we have better living standards now (in general) than 1000 years ago, when we were 10 times less than we are now. Feuds over natural resources have existed since the beginning of humankind. I dont think it has much to do with overpopulation but with profits.
March 31st, 2007 at 2:00 pm#76 I dont agree. I think we have better living standards now (in general) than 1000 years ago, when we were 10 times less than we are now. Feuds over natural resources have existed since the beginning of humankind. I dont think it has much to do with overpopulation but with profits.
So, what you are suggesting is that in this case the issue is not overpopulation but is lack of resources? That creates an issue since abundant resources always create overpopulation 100% of the time. When resources become more scarce then die-off always occurs.
March 31st, 2007 at 2:13 pmWhen resources become more scarce then die-off always occurs.
Comment by Saywho
This not an animal behavior. Animal behavior and environment is well related by a mathematical formula called the Lotka-Volterra equation that models hunter and prey interaction in time. This is a simplistic point of view. Humans are more complex. No wolf will breed sheeps and sell them to other wolves making profit out of it. We do. We have a numerous population, we have enough resources. The problem, again, is no production or extraction of resources; the problem is distribution but not because there is a lot of hands, but because those few hands have the largest share of resources.
March 31st, 2007 at 2:23 pmI don’t know why the post ###s all changed in my last post #76 is not correct. Aparently I was pointing to post #81
March 31st, 2007 at 2:24 pmhttp://dieoff.org/
March 31st, 2007 at 2:28 pmComment by Juan C
March 31st, 2007 at 2:34 pmI wish it would be as you suggest, however it is not the case. Humans depend on resources. Hence if you don’t have something to burn in the winter you will be frozen food.
Hence if you don’t have something to burn in the winter you will be frozen food.
Comment by Saywho
I really dont know how that applies as a counterexample of my statement.
March 31st, 2007 at 2:42 pmI really dont know how that applies as a counterexample of my statement.
Comment by Juan C
It does not apply as a counter to your example since your example is flawed. Your example is not an example but a statement that you made that is not accurate at all. Humans are no different than deer or bison. The rules of the Earth system apply to us as well as the worms. We are not capable of making anything; that is to say we cannot pull energy out of a hat. We can turn heat to electricity at a loss. We can turn oil into an expanding gas at a loss. If we eat a majority of the food today we will have starvation tomorrow.
Our reality is this…
http://dieoff.org/
and this…
http://dieoff.org/page125.htm
and this…
http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/
More to the point, should you and I meet and we are both hungry I will do my best to kill you and eat you before you do the same to me. Our nations will fall. Look back at Greece and Rome, etc. They at the time did not conglomerate upon the entire globe as we do now. So when the society breaks down now the costs are even greater.
March 31st, 2007 at 3:02 pmThere are 11 fundamental laws of physics. None of those can be (at least until now) broken. The Lotka-Volterra, for example, is not a fundamental law, of course.
Yes, of course, at the end, all gradients will fade, thats what the second law of thermodynamics (the only non balance law) tells us among other things. That means at the end we will all die. So? I still dont understand.
Some of the problems is that there are a lack of resource availability in some places, while in other you have huge amounts of those sources for very few people. Example? 4.5% of total population consumes 25% of global exergy (not energy): the US.
Again, it is all distribution, as just as you would kill me for a piece of bread, governments send to kill people for their pieces of bread in order to eat them or sell them and make profit so they can continue sending people to kill other people for more bread. Nowadays, there is a special vicious country that does that. Im sure you know which one is.
March 31st, 2007 at 3:30 pmSo unbelievable, are you saying that there should be population control?
More like food control. Populations will rise to meet the amount of food this is being produced - and we make as much food as can feed 7 billion people…
A cure to exterminate the human virus?
Comment by Troll Basher — March 31, 2007 @ 1:57 pm
Not ‘exterminate’ - natural reduce. This can be done without killing anyone. The solution is to slowly reduce the food supply, and naturally, the birth rate won’t surpass or equal the death rate, so that the population adjusts itself via a natural death rate that exceeds the natural birth rate. Will take time to reduce the quantity of people, but if you want to keep in humane (as opposed to the inhumane ways of population control through starvation, disease and war).
March 31st, 2007 at 3:37 pmI think you are right on the spot. Church´s job is to keep people under a passive stance against unjustices, and to protest against what they see as a threat to their ruling power. People in Argentina are not as tolerant against government issues as Mexicans.
Which surprises me why people cling to religion…
I dont agree. I think we have better living standards now (in general) than 1000 years ago, when we were 10 times less than we are now.
Technology advancements are the cause of that - in Industrialized nations. They’ve managed to allow the population to explode. However, it’s not the same in places where people don’t have access to clean water, are being devoured by rampant diseases and are killing one another to reduce competition (see most of Africa).
Feuds over natural resources have existed since the beginning of humankind. I dont think it has much to do with overpopulation but with profits.
Comment by Juan C — March 31, 2007 @ 2:00 pm
I think it’s pretty much a math equation.
All the water in the world at the time of human emergence is all the water there still is and all the water we will have (grossed out my students because they caught on that what they drink was once pee… :). It’s limited. Only 5% of it is potable, and a large portion of that is either in icebergs or clouds. Mathematically, considering that we share the planet with other species, the amount of humans that is sustainable is about 250,000.
Now, if 250,000 people can have adequate potable water, think of what happens when you divide the amount of adequate water per person by 28,000,000 (the number of times 250,000 goes into 7 billion)… See what I mean? At some point, when the reesources are limited, and the population exceeds sustainability, competition for those limited resources will escalate. It’s why the most toxic creature on the planet are in the ocean (there’s more competition due to longevity of life).
March 31st, 2007 at 3:47 pmComment by Juan C — March 31, 2007 @ 3:30 pm
March 31st, 2007 at 3:47 pmLook Juan,
I don’t want to eat people but I intend to survive. I have the intent and drive to survive but that is no guarantee that I will survive. You said that die-off applied to animals since humans were the exception since we are smart or special. Now you want to interject thermodynamics into the mix. Then you want to talk about energy distribution….
None of that matters Juan. Peak oil is here and no matter what percentage you have today there will be less available tomorrow. The basic point is that just as energy can be looked at as a bell curve, so can the population. 6.5 billion Humans will not be able to go back in time to “Little House on the Prairie”. Our population will return to the corresponding energy level that we are in. So, since our energy will be depleted we will be forced back to the time of Olduvai George and all that it encompasses.
Juan,
I do agree that the food that exists in the world , which would feed everyone who needs it, is not getting where it should due to Corporate Greed…
That the reason there are fat people is because they have eaten someone else’d food… Which is possible, because the Corporations stand to make more $ off selling it to them…
March 31st, 2007 at 3:49 pmJuan,
‘The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight’ by Thom Hartmann does a great job in explaining the problems with our excessive population in contrast to the limited amount of sunlight (energy) we are “allocated” by its daily amount of nuclear fusion.
Also ‘Ishmael’ by Daniel Quinn, which will explain more about the dangers of our culture on this reality that we face.
I just realized that I haven’t read a non-fiction book in years, and don’t really want to…. Reality is so much more interesting…. :)
March 31st, 2007 at 3:58 pmSo, since our energy will be depleted we will be forced back to the time of Olduvai George and all that it encompasses.
Comment by Saywho — March 31, 2007 @ 3:47 pm
We do have the ability to gradually do this (”Ishmael” explains) - but we won’t, so I agree that when we run out of ancient sunlight, we will be forced to live off of what is given daily by the sun, the wind, the Earth, and that the massive die-off as a result will be horrible, because nature only produces a fraction of what oil does.
Sadly, I think we will live to see it…
March 31st, 2007 at 4:02 pmThat the reason there are fat people is because they have eaten someone else’d food…
Comment by unbelievable
Ha ha! I agree.
It’s limited. Only 5% of it is potable, and a large portion of that is either in icebergs or clouds. Mathematically, considering that we share the planet with other species, the amount of humans that is sustainable is about 250,000.
But there are desalination techniques so thats not a problem. The problem is that governments will rather invest in some fancy chopper than in a solar still plant that can produce 200 m³/day.
So, since our energy will be depleted we will be forced back to the time of Olduvai George and all that it encompasses.
Comment by Saywho
But thats a lie. Energy cant be depleted. It is conserved, right? Thats why I said exergy. Exergy can be depleted. What we consume is exergy, not energy. Now, in other sense, that is also a lie. You think oil is the only energy resource or carrier. The only sustainable energy source is solar energy. We can have the greatest energy levels per capita and pollute very little if actions are taken towards renewable energy sources. Governments will hold this back cause the biggest corporations GM, Exxon, etc, depend on people consuming oil. So, dont worry, after oil, hydrogen will come. Its already here, in fact.
So, I agree that overpopulation is not a good way to respect our environment and ourselves. But I think that when people throw this argument, other people can think, well, yeah, those africans are reproducing like rabbits and look how miserable conditions they have. or look at those latinos, having growth population so fast, when in fact, the reason, for example, of 3 and a half billion people without access to potable water, is not the lack of water.
March 31st, 2007 at 4:20 pmI just realized that I haven’t read a non-fiction book in years, and don’t really want to…. Reality is so much more interesting…. :)
Comment by unbelievable
I just finished a book of Chomsky. You dont know how bad I want to read Cinderella again. :D
March 31st, 2007 at 4:25 pmBut there are desalination techniques so thats not a problem. The problem is that governments will rather invest in some fancy chopper than in a solar still plant that can produce 200 m³/day.
Good point… But if we were willing to do that, we’d be doing it now, and we aren’t… Because they won’t be around to see it… Sad they care so little for their offspring living in their messes…
when in fact, the reason, for example, of 3 and a half billion people without access to potable water, is not the lack of water.
Comment by Juan C — March 31, 2007 @ 4:20 pm
But it is, because those theoretical desalination plants don’t exist… And therefore we have to do the math off the potable water that exists rather than the potable water that could exist.
I just finished a book of Chomsky. You dont know how bad I want to read Cinderella again. :D
Comment by Juan C — March 31, 2007 @ 4:25 pm
LOL
Which one? I have about 4 of his books that I’ve started but never finished. I’m reading some Biology and Atheism stuff now.
March 31st, 2007 at 4:33 pmComment by unbelievable — March 31, 2007 @ 4:02 pm
I’m not attacking you or Juan. I don’t think that Juan has thought this through since he mentions Lotka-Volterra and that is about the relationship of predator and prey. Humans are on top of the food chain but still part of the chain.
The issue in a land of plenty is how many women to have sex with. The issue in a land of diminishing returns is wondering if Juan’s liver will taste better if is at room temperature or body temperature?
The questions are about carrying capacity, energy availability and starvation. Yes the USA consumes more energy than the rest of the world and creates nothing but waste in the process. This is done on purpose rather than by mistake. Regardless the energy is depleted and the shell game is over. Now we get to the dirty game of kill or be killed.
Oil has allowed the entire world to generate 6.5 BILLION people. All of that energy has allowed for a super rapid expansion of this population and an increase in energy demand. Crops depend on both NG and OIL. We will not be able to grow food for 6.5 billion people let alone a fraction of that should NG or OIL go into decline. Topsoil has been long depleted and now must be fertilized using the current methods since non organic methods fail to meet the demands.
Carrying capacity talks about available water. Forget salt water as that requires energy to de-salinify. Forget about drought since that water is gone. Forget about ground pollution. Now talk about how much water each living thing holds out of the system while living and to that add daily consumption. There is less and less available potable water each and every day. If 1 BILLION people are KILLED the 5.5 billion remaining get about 10 BILLION gallons of water to divide (10 gallons per person); they also receive an additional 1 BILLION gallons of water since that is the amount necessary for 1 human per day.
Should we talk about crops we are in for a pounding here. The USA intends to plant GM corn to be harvested for ethanol. If you eat it like the lab rats you will get cancer.
March 31st, 2007 at 4:41 pmBut thats a lie. Energy cant be depleted. It is conserved, right? Thats why I said exergy. Exergy can be depleted. What we consume is exergy, not energy. Now, in other sense, that is also a lie. You think oil is the only energy resource or carrier. The only sustainable energy source is solar energy. We can have the greatest energy levels per capita and pollute very little if actions are taken towards renewable energy sources. Governments will hold this back cause the biggest corporations GM, Exxon, etc, depend on people consuming oil. So, dont worry, after oil, hydrogen will come. Its already here, in fact.
Comment by Juan C — March 31, 2007 @ 4:20 pm
Wrong, wrong and wrong!
You are talking about thermodynamics and thermodynamics states that a sealed system (like even the Earth), “over time, differences in temperature, pressure, and density tend to even out in a physical system which is isolated from the outside world. Entropy is a measure of how far along this evening-out process has progressed.”
Now when I talk about energy for the purposes of this discussion we are talking about oil. Others like coal and NG are included with OIL. There are other types of energy sources available and by all rights I should say “DEPLETED ENERGY SOURCES” however the source that allowed humans to attain 6.5 BILLION and counting head is OIL. Once oil is burned the energy is released and at a loss in efficiency. The waste gasses will not be oil again in any timeframe that will be useful to the current population.
Hydrogen is found bound to oxygen. Offhand I don’t know the amount of calories needed to free the hydrogen but I can tell you that more energy is needed to free the hydrogen (comes from OIL) than is gained from the work (thermodynamics makes this clear since you cannot even break even).
Solar energy is another energy transfer with a loss but the Sun is pretty reliable. The issues with solar are similar to hydrogen, solar panels are MADE and this requires more total energy then the return over a given units functional life(more than that are the gallium and silver requirements both needing to be mined and are finite).
Regardless, thermodynamics is a fact and our population is proof that we humans need more energy to support our life systems than the sun can provide. We have “overshot” the Earth’s carrying capacity. You can rig the numbers all you want Juan. By the way I posted decent links some posts back and you would learn a great deal by reading them.
March 31st, 2007 at 5:14 pmI’m not attacking you or Juan.
I didn’t think you were… I’m not one for sugar-coating stuff myself…
I don’t think that Juan has thought this through since he mentions Lotka-Volterra and that is about the relationship of predator and prey. Humans are on top of the food chain but still part of the chain.
I don’t know Lotka-Volterra, so unlike the trolls, I don’t interject in subjects I don’t know or understand.
The issue in a land of plenty is how many women to have sex with. The issue in a land of diminishing returns is wondering if Juan’s liver will taste better if is at room temperature or body temperature?
I never think about sex with women… Ugh :)
I’m a realist. Used to be optimistic realist, but the longer I’m a thinker who rejects cultural fairytales, the harder it is to be more than just a realist. And reality shows that in an indifferent universe, the only way you’re eating Juan’s liver is if you’re genetically superior to him, and there isn’t some other corresponding event that disables you prior to trying :)
I hope neither of you will have to find out. Mostly because, as a woman, I’m probably both slower and smaller than both of you, and I’d rather keep my liver where it is… : )
The questions are about carrying capacity, energy availability and starvation. Yes the USA consumes more energy than the rest of the world and creates nothing but waste in the process. This is done on purpose rather than by mistake. Regardless the energy is depleted and the shell game is over. Now we get to the dirty game of kill or be killed.
I don’t disgaree… I just wonder the real date for this occurance, as we can’t seem to get a straight answer out of anyone…
Oil has allowed the entire world to generate 6.5 BILLION people. All of that energy has allowed for a super rapid expansion of this population and an increase in energy demand. Crops depend on both NG and OIL. We will not be able to grow food for 6.5 billion people let alone a fraction of that should NG or OIL go into decline. Topsoil has been long depleted and now must be fertilized using the current methods since non organic methods fail to meet the demands.
I completely agree, and think I said something to this effect in my reply to Juan that referenced Thom Hartmann.
Carrying capacity talks about available water. Forget salt water as that requires energy to de-salinify. Forget about drought since that water is gone. Forget about ground pollution. Now talk about how much water each living thing holds out of the system while living and to that add daily consumption. There is less and less available potable water each and every day. If 1 BILLION people are KILLED the 5.5 billion remaining get about 10 BILLION gallons of water to divide (10 gallons per person); they also receive an additional 1 BILLION gallons of water since that is the amount necessary for 1 human per day.
Not to mention, theer are already water wars…
And, Florida has drained its aquafer - so it can be done. They are reportedly replacing it with raw sewage, hoping that nature will do it’s work - not considering all the pharmaceutical contaminants from the high geriatric population that exists there….
Should we talk about crops we are in for a pounding here. The USA intends to plant GM corn to be harvested for ethanol. If you eat it like the lab rats you will get cancer.
Comment by Saywho — March 31, 2007 @ 4:41 pm
I just planted vegetables… I’m learning to grow my own food. I think I might need to know how… :)
While, the frogs in the pot are ignoring the warning signs…
March 31st, 2007 at 6:30 pmComment by unbelievable — March 31, 2007 @ 6:30
I was not implying that women sleep with women and no I did not realize that you are female. So with that realization then the question in a land of plenty for you would be I hope he can get me pregnant if not maybe that guy can. I’m pointing out that our priorities can change depending on conditions.
I used Juan’s liver as an example but as it stands our survival instincts adjust according to the conditions of our environment. The Chinese use fetuses to make topical creams and enjoy eating them as well. If we were to become so hungry then cannibalism is a possibility.
Regardless here in the US there is no immunity to hard times. Should we see shortages now these will only confirm “peak oil” as a reality. Ramping up alternatives like a “new industrial era” or “Industrial Revolution II” is at best more of the same and will expend whatever remains.
So, the solution to our situation is pretty drastic. The US intends to take the oil from the sand dwellers and reduce the global population by killing anyone given the title “Terrorist”. If we withdraw (not going to happen) we will lose billions of barrels of oil and our economy would crash. If that happens we may be feeding off the dead before too long.
March 31st, 2007 at 7:10 pmMIKE GRAVEL IS OFFERING US AN REAL ALTERNATIVE. THIS ELECTION DOES NOT HAVE TO BE ABOUT THE SPECIAL INTERESTS, AND THE LOBBYISTS AND THE MILITARY INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX.
WE CAN MAKE A REAL DIFFERENCE BY VOTING FOR MIKE GRAVEL FOR PRESIDENT.
March 31st, 2007 at 9:24 pmI hear a general consensus that we should remover our troops from Iraq ASAP. What does everyone think will happen if we pull out without a stable government in Iraq? (I’m really not interested in why its Bush’s fault we are in this mess, that is obvious or how it will be worse if we stay…in real terms, what will happen if we pull out?)
March 31st, 2007 at 9:36 pmKDH, it is my opinion only, the same event’s will happen now as they will a year from now or two year’s from now…A bit more of civil war and then Iraq will stabalize…Just like Nam..We can not be the ocupier and thieves of their oil and we must get out and then beg for forgivness, send fund’s and let them do the rebuilding…Bush’s war has created a huge mess and we need to get out before more of our’s and their’s are killed by our hand’s and us being there….Bushco caused the distruction of their country and the longer we stay the worse it will get…..Blessings..Peace
March 31st, 2007 at 10:01 pmGravel should be impeached…..he’s against our troops and pro- terroist!!
March 31st, 2007 at 11:15 pm#28 We know Hillary is pro-war so she’s out of the question
Nope, she’s more pro-Israel than pro-war which means she’s a puppet of AIPAC. Therefore, she is an insincere, treacherous candidate whose allegiance is not to American interests but to a foreign nation. She’s a traitor.
March 31st, 2007 at 11:30 pmYou are talking about thermodynamics and thermodynamics states that a sealed system (like even the Earth),
Comment by Saywho
Ok, maybe I came as a smart ass. Thats not my intention.
But the Earth is an open system, of course. At day, Sun radiates energy while at night the Earth radiates IR radiation to the background radiation of the universe. If this wasnt the case, is very likeable that the Earth wouldnt support life, why? Because the entropy generated in this radiation exchange can be moved out precisely by the IR. Otherwise we would just pile up entropy until everything faded.
Yeah, of course, hydrogen is bonded to oxygen and carbon, and it is a high energy intense process to break this bonds. But, as one professor told me about reforestation and its cost: Within some time, reforestation wont be extraordinarily expensive, but mandatory. The same here. We do it or our kids suffer.
April 1st, 2007 at 1:07 am“He told us last weekend that he thought the Iraq redeployment provision attached to the House and Senate supplemental bills is “ridiculous legislation.†“We need to get out now”"
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“Gravel also advocated a carbon tax. He said Americans should “keep in mind†that every time they fill up their gas tank, “you’re spending another $4.00 per gallon indirectly by maintaining American troops in 140 countries to stabilize the price of oil.—
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Sounds like the man has an impressive track record, common sense, a spine AND a brain. More than can be said for either of the two Dem frontrunner hotshots. Neither Hillary nor Obama seems to have a friggin’ clue about environmental sustainability, how systemic a problem it is or how immediately and extensively it needs to be dealt with. This guy has a real good chance of getting my vote.
April 1st, 2007 at 1:51 am“what will happen if we pull out?”
-KDH
We will FIND OUT what happens when we get the hell out of Iraq and ASK the Iraqis what kind of non-military assistance they want and need, with a commitment to accomodate those *requests* accordingly, appropriately, as much as is reasonable and possible. It’s common sense, man!
Other than that, what will happen is a helluva lot of American taxpayers’ money, resources, time, energy and attention will be freed up to focus on cleaning up the mess on our own turf. Effecting every living thing on earth as our American mess does, we’ve got good and plenty more productive and useful things to busy ourselves with ‘at home’ than having our military play ’security’ for criminally insane corporate executives’ and corrupt politicians’ rackets abroad.
April 1st, 2007 at 2:26 amMike Gravel is far and away the most principled and intelligent Democrat running, and the establishment is terrified that his honesty will be heard. In fact, CNN has colluded with Hearst Corp. to ban him from the New Hampshire debate and when he is mentioned at all by the mainstream media gatekeepers, it is to be mocked by pro-oligarchy hatchetmen like David Broder, who again today in his column disparaged the very idea that Gravel could be considered presidential material.
April 1st, 2007 at 10:22 amI will be supporting Gravel in the Iowa Caucus, and I implore everyone who is interested in ending this war of aggression for oil and rethinking the future of the U.S.A. to consider voting for a candidate of character and integrity like Mike Gravel and rejecting those who merely prove adept at slavishly jumping through corporate special interest hoops in their lust for money and power.
Comment by Jeff H Iowa — April 1, 2007 @ 10:22 am
Great post!! Can you keep us up to date here at TP concerning the facts on the ground out there? Gravel is on point with me!! Post all the info you can get. We can then use that info to make a difference. Thanks.
April 1st, 2007 at 3:43 pmGravel has my vote. He speaks the truth. Thank you for interviewing him!
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