‘Surge’ troops facing shortened time at home.
By on Apr 2nd, 2007 at 1:24 pm
‘Surge’ troops facing shortened time at home.
“The Pentagon said on Monday it will send another 9,000 U.S. troops to Iraq, with about half of them returning to combat ahead of schedule, in order to maintain troop levels in its new security crackdown through at least August. Two of the affected Army units, totaling about 4,500 troops, will return to combat short of their promised year at home, reflecting the strain placed on U.S. forces by commitments in Iraq and Afghanistan.”
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The Iraq Fiasco War must end NOW and all the troops returned home to their loving families. Send Bush and Cheney to Iraq to buy rugs > lol.
April 2nd, 2007 at 1:26 pmFamily values all around!!!
April 2nd, 2007 at 1:27 pmWho will be the first troll to say that “they volunteered” or “how do you know they don’t want to go?”
April 2nd, 2007 at 1:29 pmIt wasn’t so long ago that trolls were constantly claiming we had plenty of troops and there were no shortage problems. Whatever happened to that rhetoric?
April 2nd, 2007 at 1:29 pm#
Who will be the first troll to say that “they volunteered†or “how do you know they don’t want to go?â€
Comment by bob (not the hacker) — April 2, 2007 @ 1:29 pm
Jake.
April 2nd, 2007 at 1:30 pmAs the Iraqis stand up, we will stand up taller.
Makes perfect sense, not.
April 2nd, 2007 at 1:35 pmHow do you get 21,000 troops needed for the surge?
Easy! Bring 4,500 home and send them to Iraq again every two months and claim they are fresh troops.
New math courtesy of the BushCo plan for every child left behind.
April 2nd, 2007 at 1:41 pmThe escalation is such a HUGE strategic blunder. All it has done is put more American lives at risk, while just moving the violence out of Bagdad to other areas. Should any of these 4500 troops die on a broken promise that they would be home for a year, think of the morale problem that entire unit will face. The taxes we’re paying to have the military enforce cheap gas prices for Americans will just keep increasing, while prices for alternative energy will decrease with more investment. Why don’t we buy several billion dollars worth of wind turbines instead?
April 2nd, 2007 at 1:45 pmMy republican neighbor across the street son joined the military after the war started for the college money and was told that he wasn’t going to Iraq. I told him that he would and they didn’t think so. Well, he is headed over there in two weeks and is upset because he only wanted the college money and feels betrayed by the recruiter.
I was like “You didn’t think he would be going? You do know there is a troop shortage right now, right? Or have you been believing what Bill O’Rielly has been telling you when you are blasting him as you drive down the street?”
She was like “Wow, you did say that last year did you?” And I said “Yes, I am telling you the truth and Fox “News” is lying to you.”
Guess who isn’t listening to Fox anymore.
Ha ha trolls. I win again.
April 2nd, 2007 at 1:46 pm#3 my vote is for Partick1
April 2nd, 2007 at 1:46 pmSurge’ troops facing shortened time at home.
Good! It’ll give them more time to shop for cheap home furnishings; Lindsey Graham’s shown it’s no big deal, so go out and grab those bargains, shoppers — er soldiers! But avoid the flashing blue light specials – unless you’re looking for damaged goods/fire-sales! [ /sarc]
April 2nd, 2007 at 1:47 pmAccording to his own words, Bush has failed
George W. Bush VFW Speech – August 21, 2000
“The facts are stark and the facts are real. . . Our men and women in uniform love their country more than their comfort. They have never failed us, and we must not fail them. But the best intentions and the highest morale are undermined by back-to-back deployments, poor pay, shortages of spare parts and equipment, and rapidly declining readiness.”
“. . .these are signs of a military in decline and we must do something about it. The reasons are clear. Lack of equipment and material. Undermaning of units. Overdeployment. Not enough time for family. Soldiers who are on food stamps, and soldiers who are poorly housed.â€
http://bushfailed.blogspot.com/
April 2nd, 2007 at 1:50 pmThis sick puppy named “sludge-boy” likens our problems in Iraq to a joke. Keep your “Ha-Ha” references to yourself. This is not a joke or a game. If you think you are so smart, head over there ya self!
April 2nd, 2007 at 1:52 pmComment by Spudge_Boy — April 2, 2007 @ 1:46 pm
Job well done – hopefully the next family will listen before they learn the hard way!
April 2nd, 2007 at 1:53 pmHow many troops do we have protecting us at home?
April 2nd, 2007 at 1:53 pmhead over there ya self!
Comment by Real RedNeck — April 2, 2007 @ 1:52 pm
Ays the PRO WAR activist sitting on his ass typing. We’re all against the war. I don’t want to hear you served already because I’m sure they’ll take you back.
And you folks all for the war, you and your kids should be the first to go! Oh and if you don’t like are jokes about you losers why don’t you take your wimpy selves to one of you intellectual (ha,ha) right wing blogs.
See ya.
April 2nd, 2007 at 1:57 pmYou mean like homeland security, national guard troops? I guess they’re all in Iraq. But the neocons feel safer and that’s what matters to the loser administration.
April 2nd, 2007 at 1:58 pmGood thing their followers are so easy to deceive.
Spudge_Boy
That idiot Real RedNeck got me so riled I started typing like a troll. ha,ha
Got something else to say BigMouth Real RedNeck? Or are you going to the recruiting office now?
April 2nd, 2007 at 2:01 pmComment by shane — April 2, 2007 @ 2:01 pm
Wow, you are awfully explosive for someone that loves peace. What next, are you going to threaten to kick someones butt?
Just an observation.
April 2nd, 2007 at 2:08 pmSad news, indeed.
Anyone of these young Americans that didn’t have PTSD will now have an increased chance of coming home with it; if they come home at all.
Using our military, particularly the National Guard, to shore up a losing effort in the short run will come back to haunt us for a long, long time.
Sad, indeed.
April 2nd, 2007 at 2:11 pmI hate America, which is why I support overthrowing secular governments and occupying their countries until their populations become radical jidahists.
I hate America, which is why I support staying in Iraq and oppose going after bin Laden.
I hate America, which is why I agree with bin Laden that American liberals, with their feminism, cultural diversity, and tolerance for differences, should be subjected to sharia law, or its American equivalent.
I will work tirelessly to achieve these goals.
April 2nd, 2007 at 2:13 pm#9 Spudge_Boy,
well you did your part… all you can do is speak truth to people and hope they will hear with a mind thats open to logic and rational, critical thought. If they choose to belive the lies and the liars then there is not much hope for them.
I feel sorry for your neighbor’s kid and all, but misinformation is a CHOICE… a choic of the lazy I might add
April 2nd, 2007 at 2:14 pm#21
How many threads are you going to post this drivel in? And under how many other names? It’s old, tired, and asinine. If you want to criticize a troll, have at it. But how about doing so under your own screen name?
April 2nd, 2007 at 2:17 pmThere ain’t no joke about it you piece of sh!t. Real people are really dying for no real reason. Go fu*k yourself.
April 2nd, 2007 at 2:21 pmThe problem is that he had already signed up for the Army before I had moved in, so I couldn’t talk him out of it. When I first moved into the neighborhood, going to his going away party was one of the first things we did.
We are now very good friends who have dinner together all of the time. Real republicans are nothing like the trolls we have on this site. Always keep that in mind. We have the worst of the worst neocons as trolls. Regular everyday republicans listen to the truth when you tell them.
April 2nd, 2007 at 2:24 pmI’m curious about one thing, actually, as I’m not sure if there are any official net guidelines; For what length of time do the trolls have to be wrong before they can officially be not listened to ever again?
April 2nd, 2007 at 2:26 pm#8 The war itself was the single largest blunder ever in the history of this country; next to that, the “surge” will be the second most horrendous blunder in contemporary history. It will prove to be the classic: Two wrongs never made a right – and never will!
April 2nd, 2007 at 2:26 pmWonder how many of these innocent and abused 9,000 will result in domestic genocide and come back in flag-draped coffins?
April 2nd, 2007 at 2:27 pmwow, where’s Jake today?
April 2nd, 2007 at 2:27 pm#29 – I was wondering the same thing because these threads feel less slimey to me – and certainly less littered with detritus and drivel today. What a breath of fresh air!
April 2nd, 2007 at 2:28 pmJake took a new position with the McCain campaign as a speech writer.
April 2nd, 2007 at 2:29 pmRAVEN: McCain’s got more flip-flops than a Big-Lots discount bin!!
Veritas:good to um, read you(?) again! It’s strange, actual intellectual conversation with minimal troll intervention.
April 2nd, 2007 at 2:34 pmHuzzah!
Comment by hacker bob — April 2, 2007 @ 2:08 pm
Who said I love peace? Are you putting words in my mouth now? If there was a cause I felt was worth fighting for I’d be all for sending troops.
Fighting another country’s civil war so the oil companies can make even bigger profits is not something I think our soldiers should be fighting for.
April 2nd, 2007 at 2:34 pmof course, I just countered my very own statement with the ‘Big Lots’ reference…
April 2nd, 2007 at 2:35 pmComment by whiteyfresh — April 2, 2007 @ 2:27 pm
Don’t speak he who shall not be named or he will hear himself not being named and think that we miss his name and will arrive under one of his new names because we’re all on his so named ignore list.
Sorry I was just feeling a little Harry Potterish.
April 2nd, 2007 at 2:39 pmnice one shane!
April 2nd, 2007 at 2:44 pmHey shane have you ever claimed to be a pacifist.
April 2nd, 2007 at 2:44 pmComment by shane — April 2, 2007 @ 2:34 pm
My apologies. I thought you were one of the “peace at any price” types. My mistake.
April 2nd, 2007 at 2:48 pmNevermind shane you already answered the question. Amazing how whenever we fight back right wingers trot out the lie that because we are opposed to this illegal and immoral war of choice we oppose all war all the time or are some sort of peacenik who will not defend ourselves.
April 2nd, 2007 at 2:48 pm#19 Being anti-Iraq war does not necessarily mean being a bend-over at all costs pacifist. If that were so there are a whole heck of a lot more doves in this country than I thought considering the 70% or so that are not so enamored of it. This ain’t no Revolutionary War and Bush certainly ain’t no Washington.
April 2nd, 2007 at 2:51 pmHa ha trolls. I win again.
Comment by Spudge_Boy
Priceless!! LMAO!
Who will be the first troll to say that “they volunteered†or “how do you know they don’t want to go?â€
Comment by bob (not the hacker)
If we could add some gay issue, I could bet all my money to Daryll.
April 2nd, 2007 at 2:51 pm#38 There aren’t many of those around, bob. That is the image the right likes to portray the left as. It is a myth and I would think you would know better.
April 2nd, 2007 at 2:53 pmHey shane have you ever claimed to be a pacifist.
Comment by klyde — April 2, 2007 @ 2:44 pm
No and anybody who reads my posts should know that Trolls make be go ballistic!
April 2nd, 2007 at 2:53 pmComment by klyde — April 2, 2007 @ 2:48 pm
Actually, I thought I had read something shane wrote a while back stateing that she had that view, and I was obviously mistaken. Therefore I apologized like a reasonable person would once they have been corrected.
April 2nd, 2007 at 2:55 pmComment by JPark — April 2, 2007 @ 2:53 pm
There may not be many, but there are some. I had a nice little encounter with a few this weekend. These were the “a$$hole, war criminal” types. And in front of my kids. (No, I played nice, because of the kids)
April 2nd, 2007 at 2:58 pmwhat we have wrought
April 2nd, 2007 at 3:00 pmMy apologies. I thought you were one of the “peace at any price†types. My mistake.
Comment by hacker bob — April 2, 2007 @ 2:48 pm
I’m not but I do respect the “peace at any price types” you refer to and think your comment is derogatory.
April 2nd, 2007 at 3:01 pmyour “apology” was in the queue while i was typing.
April 2nd, 2007 at 3:03 pmThese were the “a$$hole, war criminal†types. And in front of my kids. (No, I played nice, because of the kids)
Comment by hacker bob — April 2, 2007 @ 2:58 pm
Gee you didn’t by any chance take your kids and your marine self to a peace rally did you?
April 2nd, 2007 at 3:04 pm#45 That was rude of them (in front of your kids). An illegal war is an illegal war. That, in fact, makes the perpetrators war criminals. Again, that view doesn’t translate into a pacifist mentality.
April 2nd, 2007 at 3:05 pmComment by shane — April 2, 2007 @ 3:01 pm
Wow, what is so derogatory? Which comment in particular?
April 2nd, 2007 at 3:06 pmI’m not but I do respect the “peace at any price types†you refer to and think your comment is derogatory.
Comment by shane
Exactly, shane.
Bob, whats wrong with wanting peace at all price? I can describe myself as that type, becuz I would fight like a vicious dog in order to obtain it.
You may think that peaceful people dont know how to defend themselves. Oriental civilizations learned a long time ago that the ultimate goal of a warrior was peace, not victory. And they knew how to kick some ass.
April 2nd, 2007 at 3:06 pmGee you didn’t by any chance take your kids and your marine self to a peace rally did you?
Comment by shane — April 2, 2007 @ 3:04 pm
No, I was actually at a Mall trying to shop with my kids. No uniform on, but a USMC jacket.
Besides, would it matter if I was at a peace rally? Are they entitled to more respect than I am? Or my kids?
April 2nd, 2007 at 3:10 pmhttp://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/suicide_bombing_study;_ylt=AmP4ugkgBN6X2xBZXtn40iQDW7oF
My post @ 46 should have had this link. TP apparently ate it
April 2nd, 2007 at 3:13 pm#53 Besides, would it matter if I was at a peace rally? Are they entitled to more respect than I am? Or my kids?
That would depend on what you were doing at a peace rally. If you had taken them to one and heckled the protesters I would say you were the one putting your children in that situation.
April 2nd, 2007 at 3:16 pmComment by Juan C
Remeber that many of the “peace at any price” types do not practice what they preach. I am sorry to say it, but peace at any price includes the cost of human lives.
You say you would “fight like a vicious dog in order to obtain it”.
Would you kill for peace?
Oriental civilizations learned a long time ago that the ultimate goal of a warrior was peace, not victory.
This is the basis for BushidÅ. How did the Samuri gain peace for his nation? By taking up arms and waging war.
April 2nd, 2007 at 3:17 pmComment by JPark — April 2, 2007 @ 3:16 pm
But what if I was just there, observing. It does happen. Not often. But it does.
April 2nd, 2007 at 3:19 pmHow about war as a last resort, rather than peace at any cost?
April 2nd, 2007 at 3:23 pm#56 If you were there observing why would there be an altercation? I really don’t see a scenario where a complete stranger at a rally would single you out.
April 2nd, 2007 at 3:23 pmJPark,
I’ve been away from military life for over 20 years, but I can spot a military man no matter what he’s wearing.
If I were inclined to do something like your scenario, it would be easy.
April 2nd, 2007 at 3:29 pmThis is the basis for BushidÅ. How did the Samuri gain peace for his nation? By taking up arms and waging war.
Comment by hacker bob
In the Bushido there is not a word about war. It is the code of the Samurai: Rectitude, Courage, Benevolence, Respect, Honor, Honesty and Loyalty.
There is not a word about waging war.
And yes, given the cirumstances, I would kill for peace, but not just because my government told me that, I would do it because I am convinced. I cant be tolerant against intolerance.
April 2nd, 2007 at 3:31 pmHow about war as a last resort, rather than peace at any cost?
Comment by Zooey — April 2, 2007 @ 3:23 pm
This is how it should be. But there will always be a segment of society that will continue to say “We have not exausted every avenue”. There comes a time that you must put down the olive branch and pick up the sword.
#56 If you were there observing why would there be an altercation? I really don’t see a scenario where a complete stranger at a rally would single you out.
Comment by JPark — April 2, 2007 @ 3:23 pm
It has happened. Remember, not everyone is as enlightened as you. Especially young, under educated people.
April 2nd, 2007 at 3:34 pmRepublican Price Of Freedom.
There’s an old saying about freedom not being free.
I find it fascinating how a group of people, the Republicans, are MORE than willing to pursue a war as long as everyone else pays for it.
Draft – Won’t hear of that. That puts everyone on equal footing to serve their country. Just let the minorities and those poor folks put their lives on the line, we have more important things to do.
Taxes – Cut, cut, cut. We don’t want to actually pay for this war. We’ll wait until the Democrats get into power and just complain about them raising taxes. Just forget about our drunk sailor spending habits of the last six years.
Support the troops – Well hell yes. I’ve got my yellow sticker on the back of my humvee, next to the W ‘04 sticker.
3-4 tours in Iraq/Afghanistan – No problem. Those folks all volunteered for the service, they knew what they were getting into.
Injured or killed troops – Cut the money to the VA, those folks have served their usefulness, we don’t need to waste our hard earned tax dollars supporting those loafers.
Service to the US – Hell, we pay our taxes to support all those ingrates, what more do you want from us.
April 2nd, 2007 at 3:35 pm#59 There are plenty of veterans involved in most peace rallies. I am still not sure why he would be singled out unless he intended to cause a commotion.
April 2nd, 2007 at 3:38 pm#61 How did they know your views on the war?
April 2nd, 2007 at 3:38 pmThere is not a word about waging war
What was the duty of the Samurai? The Bushido is the code by which he lived his life AND performed his duty.
I would kill for peace
Then how are you any differnt than me. The only difference I see is our individual realities.
April 2nd, 2007 at 3:39 pmDraft – Won’t hear of that. That puts everyone on equal footing to serve their country. Just let the minorities and those poor folks put their lives on the line, we have more important things to do
Sorry, this portion is incorrect. The majority of the Armed Services are white and middle class. Try looking up the actual demographics.
April 2nd, 2007 at 3:41 pm#61 How did they know your views on the war?
Comment by JPark — April 2, 2007 @ 3:38 pm
I was judged by my occupation, not my beliefs. By virtue of wearing a USMC jacket in a military town, it was pretty easy to tell who I worked for.
Infact, my opinion was never asked, nor was it offered. This was not an organized protest that I would have been informed about and chosen to stay away from. It was a gathering of young people that are anti-military/anti-war. Had it been an organized (published) thing, I would have stayed away.
April 2nd, 2007 at 3:46 pmThen how are you any differnt than me. The only difference I see is our individual realities.
Comment by hacker bob
I would kill when Im threatened to death. You kill by orders.
April 2nd, 2007 at 3:49 pmYou kill by orders.
Comment by Juan C — April 2, 2007 @ 3:49 pm
No, I have never fired on someone that was not a real and legitimate threat to me. So, again, it is a matter of our individual realities.
April 2nd, 2007 at 3:54 pmWhen I was in the military in 1991 85% of the 4/5 Field Artillery was African-American And I do mean inner city folks. Poor and in need of a direction in life. You must be hanging around too many Air Force people. They I would agree are mostly white and they don’t work nearly as hard as the other branches.
April 2nd, 2007 at 3:57 pmAhhh, now it comes out. You are confusing anti-war with anti-military. I will bet money that the folks you were confronted by were anti-military and probably are very misinformed about the “war” in Iraq.
Anti-war and anti-military are two completely different things.
April 2nd, 2007 at 4:00 pmNo, I have never fired on someone that was not a real and legitimate threat to me. So, again, it is a matter of our individual realities.
Comment by hacker bob
If I go to your place with a gun, check on your kids room, check your room, check the kitchen, the bathroom and you appeared with a gun and I kill you, I cant just say: hey, he was threatening me, I had to kill him. Do you understand the difference?
April 2nd, 2007 at 4:01 pm#70.
All I know is that when I was in the Air Force ‘67 to ‘71, the VAST majority of enlisted were white.
Let’s see. If you enlisted in the Air Force you were likely to stay out of Vietnam. If you got drafted, you most certainly were going to Vietnam.
The average education in my office of enlisted people, 3 years of college. Guess how many had lost their student deferments?
Guess how many UPPER CLASS white were in the Air Force? Yep, all of those following GWB in the Air National Guard.
April 2nd, 2007 at 4:04 pmSpudge
Since you were in the Army, here is the FY05 Demo. breakdown from the Army G1.
April 2nd, 2007 at 4:10 pmits not college money its BLOOD MONEY to join an army thats main job is to kill people and destroy property
no two ways about it Blood Money
April 2nd, 2007 at 4:14 pmSorry if this comes through a second time.
Hacker Bob,
Try looking at the Army’s website
For FY 2005, enlisted
White – 58.2%
Black – 23.4%
Hispanic – 11.5%
Population of the US, Wikipedia
White – 74.7%
Black – 12.1%
Hispanic – Numbers not available as a unique group
Yeah, whites are more as a total number, but it’s not even close to their proportion of the US population.
Your argument about middle class is just as valid.
Now YOU try looking up the numbers.
And please don’t try citing numbers from the Heritage Foundation to me. Those numbers are the most manipulated numbers, from a group with rather strong biases. Sort of like Rush.
April 2nd, 2007 at 4:15 pm#74 The demographics show that Blacks enlist at a much higher proportion than whites respective to population and it shows nothing about class.
April 2nd, 2007 at 4:19 pmTobey Tall,
Blood money . . .
Question for you.
The US gives you many freedoms and many opportunities that others can only dream about.
JFK once said “Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.”
I don’t feel that everyone has to serve in the military. That’s not reasonable.
So what have YOU done to pay your country back for your freedoms and opportunities?
April 2nd, 2007 at 4:23 pmWhat it shows is a goverment that manipulates the population to acheive its goal.
In Europe and Canada , Tax payers bare most of the costs for the poor so they can have a better life.
Charity begins at home
April 2nd, 2007 at 4:28 pmComment by Dogjudge — April 2, 2007 @ 4:15 pm
I wouldn’t usse the Heritage numbers. I know they are slanted. I posted the ones from the Army G1.
Is 58.2% still a majority?
So, my statement is correct. You are worng. A majority of the Army is white, not minority.
April 2nd, 2007 at 4:29 pm#80 Wow, that is mighty disingenuous.
April 2nd, 2007 at 4:32 pmsorry mate im not American and Im not brainwashed into even seeing your way of thinking
I have freedom already
I owe my country nothing and it owes me nothing
I would only Kill occupational forces through terrorism IF MY COUNTRY WA INVADED ……. ( if I Have to and I dont and I have no worries that way)
I would never kill for money in Foreign lands – You only create more enemies
April 2nd, 2007 at 4:38 pm#80.
Yeah, the whites are just overwhelming the Army as enlisted personnel.
74.7% contributing 58.2% is REAL fair. My original statement said nothing about the majority of troops being a minority.
So you want to extend this statistics discussion a little further and start telling me about all of the UPPER and MIDDLE class minority families that offset all of the UPPER and MIDDLE class whites that aren’t enlisting?
If you want we can go back to the Civil War days. We’ll just let the rich pay for the poor to take their place in the military.
Oh, I’m sorry. We’re doing that now. We just manipulate the story a bit and call them volunteers.
BTW, I am white. It’s just that nonsense such as you are spouting is as transparent as you have made it.
Just like 1% who are saying that they are paying their fair share and we need to cut their taxes more.
April 2nd, 2007 at 4:38 pmSo, my statement is correct. You are worng. A majority of the Army is white, not minority.
Comment by hacker bob
It’s not that simple, Robert. You’re not looking at the difference in the percentages.
April 2nd, 2007 at 4:39 pmJFK once said “Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.â€
Thats Bullshit its the other way round thats the BIG problem
You pay Taxes for your country It Owes YOU big time ,
April 2nd, 2007 at 4:40 pmNow hacker bob, answer the question about class.
You also ignored my statement about anti-war vs anti-military.
And for the question is 58.2% still a majority, I have to say, ask the Bush cabal who has had a minority of 28% for a very long time and still continues to do what the minority wants, not the 72% majority. SO, in Bush’s reality, no 58.2% is not a majority.
Sorry, I had to.
P.S. Tobey Tall is not an American Dogjudge.
April 2nd, 2007 at 4:42 pmComment by JPark — April 2, 2007 @ 4:32 pm
Anytime you can show me that 58% is not a majority, I will listen.
I was VERY clear in my initial statement that a majority was white, not minorities. People do not want to believe that. They want to make it into a thing of minorities being under represented. Well, the military does not “target” recruit.We do not aim for a certain percentage of white/black/other. At least not on the Enlisted side. We jsut look for who is qualified per the MPPM.
April 2nd, 2007 at 4:42 pmRefer to post #86.
April 2nd, 2007 at 4:44 pmSo, from the way this is worded, I take it you are a recruiter?
April 2nd, 2007 at 4:45 pm#84 Not to mention his actual statement was:
Sorry, this portion is incorrect. The majority of the Armed Services are white and middle class. Try looking up the actual demographics
Leaving out that blacks serve at a much higher rate than whites, he has yet to back up his claim that they are middle class.
April 2nd, 2007 at 4:46 pmComment by Spudge_Boy — April 2, 2007 @ 4:45 pm
I was a recruiter from 2000-2003.
BTW, I am looking for an un-biased source for the economic demo. breakdown.
April 2nd, 2007 at 4:49 pmLeaving out that blacks serve at a much higher rate than whites, he has yet to back up his claim that they are middle class.
Comment by JPark
I don’t know how the “middle class” status could be verified.
April 2nd, 2007 at 4:50 pm#87 Fine, 58% IS a majority though you refuse to acknowledge that blacks enlist more than double that of whites relative to to their population. If the population were equal blacks would far outnumber whites. Now, onto the middle class claim that you have dropped from your argument since you made the comment?
April 2nd, 2007 at 4:52 pmGood luck finding that. The military doesn’t want anybody to know that. They focus on skin color and not class.
April 2nd, 2007 at 4:53 pm#87
Hacker Bob,
“They want to make it into a thing of minorities being under represented.”
You actually meant minorities being over represented not under represented.
All this shows is one of two things.
You either don’t understand statistics and the meaning of numbers, or that you are trying to manipulate numbers to make your position appear better than what it truly is.
We can get numbers to prove anything we want.
If you truly feel that whites are contributing their FAIR portion to protecting this country, I have some swamp land I’d like to sell you.
I also have a friend who can give you some numbers. He just retired from the Pentagon. This colonel was in charge of recruiting.
April 2nd, 2007 at 4:54 pmI owe my country nothing and it owes me nothing
Comment by Tobey Tall
Exactly!!!
April 2nd, 2007 at 4:55 pmBy the way, I crunched the numbers and if blacks and whites had equal population at the rates with which they currently enlist blacks would make up 71.43% of army enlisted.
April 2nd, 2007 at 5:10 pm“The majority of the Armed Services are white and middle class. Try looking up the actual demographics.
Comment by hacker bob — April 2, 2007 @ 3:41 pm”
Sorry if this has been said, but this is a case of lies, damned lies and statistics (I’m not calling you a liar hacker bob). There may well be a simple majority of anglo soldiers (and marines) but how do the persentages compare to the overall demographics of the country? How do the demographics shake out as to the kinds of jobs that people have? The level of danger that individuals are in on a day to day viewpoint?
Here’s a link to a GAO webpage that deals with this issue:
http://www.gao.gov/docsearch/abstract.php?rptno=GAO-05-952
It’s interesting that the article says that the Military hasn’t kept records of socioeconomic status since 1999 so we don’t know where the men and women are coming from. I do know a lot of people who are either out or heading in for college money. That really sucks. Pell grants and scholarships have been replaced by loans to a large degree and that drives many students from working class backgrounds to choose either foregoing college, going into deep debt (over 20,000 grand in a lot of cases) or joining up to pay for college. Look at the ads you see on tv almost all reference money for college, preparing for the future. These kids are gambling with their lives, literally.
Sorry for the long post, but this really breaks my heart.
Over the past decade, the Active Component met its overall recruiting goals more frequently than has the Reserve Component. GAO found that a combination of personal, demographic, family, and societal factors, as well as the availability of economic and educational incentives, influence youths’ decision to join or not to join the military. DOD reports that over half of today’s youth are not qualified to serve because they cannot meet the military’s entry standards for health, education, aptitude, or other requirements. DOD has not collected information on a recruit’s socioeconomic status since 1999.
April 2nd, 2007 at 5:17 pm#98
Please don’t tell this to Hacker Bob.
He just wants to delude himself into thinking that it doesn’t make any difference.
As long as it’s a warm body, that’s fine. As long as they are covered by the MPPM, that’s fine.
Don’t make me think past the tip of my nose and look at the reality of what’s going on.
Thankfully, this type of tunnel vision has been recognized a long time ago, and people don’t accept it any more.
April 2nd, 2007 at 5:22 pmThose that engineered this war…the Shock and Awe designers…wanted a nice quick war to showcase their weaponry, and make lots of $$$$ on it, and the oily grand prize. Well…it didn’t exactly work out that way….but I’m pretty sure they’re not the ones paying the price now.
April 2nd, 2007 at 5:30 pmComment by bob (not the hacker) — April 2, 2007 @ 5:17 pm
Thanks Bob.
So, Dogjudge, are you saying that recruiters should turn down qualified applicants because we have too many of one or the other racial category?
April 2nd, 2007 at 5:41 pmJFK once said “Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.â€
This is good if I were an ant or a termite , But im not
I owe my country nothing and it owes me nothing
April 2nd, 2007 at 5:46 pmNo, that’s not what I’m saying.
Someone volunteers and you sign them up. That’s what you’re supposed to do.
At the same time, please don’t rationalize that situations are different than what they really are.
By the logic you are using, if 49% of those enlisting were minorities don’t tell me that the representation of whites is just what it should be.
As I mentioned, were parsing this in different terms, but the white, upper class in this country is paying their way to avoid contributing to the freedoms and benefits that this country is giving them. A draft wouldn’t avoid all of these inequities, but it would make the playing field a lot more equal.
April 2nd, 2007 at 5:57 pmTobey Tall.
Are you just trying to get someone to argue your inane point?
Just think if everyone in your country felt the same way as you.
Rather childish attitude.
April 2nd, 2007 at 5:59 pmto join the Swiss army certainly would be good creative job and not even college money as schooling is paid for at goverment level to improve your countries prospects in the world and important for your country
But joining the American military is nothing but blood money
April 2nd, 2007 at 6:01 pmRather childish attitude – Ha the thing is im a free thinker
Dogjudge you sound like a robot
JFK once said “Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country.â€
The most pathetic Quote Ive heard
no wonder America is in such a sorry state
your country aint doing Zilch for its people except making things worse
April 2nd, 2007 at 6:08 pm#102 No, you target poorer neighborhoods. I don’t see recruiters in Brookfield or Greenfield high schools. They sure as heck make an appearance in the downtown Milwaukee schools. Sure, it makes sense because those with fewer options are more likely to enlist but don’t tell me you don’t target because that is a blatant lie. Be honest about targetting minorities.
April 2nd, 2007 at 6:08 pm“peace at any price types†you refer to and think your comment is derogatory.
Gee hacker bob I think this was pretty easy to figure out. If you were trying.
April 2nd, 2007 at 6:09 pmNo it isn’t.
You know I put up with a lot of your anti-American crap, because you are on the money for the most part. But now you are implying that my military service was the same as that of a Blackwater mercenary. I signed up to defend my country. Not college money, not anything else.
Just give it a fu*king rest already.
April 2nd, 2007 at 6:10 pmBesides, would it matter if I was at a peace rally? Are they entitled to more respect than I am? Or my kids?
Comment by hacker bob — April 2, 2007 @ 3:10 pm
Well this is a progressive site you come to with your conservative agenda. So one could assume you might use the same type of provocation to irritate protestors at a peace rally.
An if you’re as low as the rest of the trolls around here, not that I’m saying you are, you might take your kids so that you could complain about the behavior of those you provoked.
April 2nd, 2007 at 6:13 pmJust think if everyone in your country felt the same way as you.
Rather childish attitude.
Comment by Dogjudge
I guess its the contrary. While I dont agree with Tobey´s remarks about american casualties, I think he represents the population which is NOT indoctrinated with war and chauvinistic propaganda. If you cite JFK, I can say that he was as war mongering as almost any other president of the US. Even Thomas Jefferson took the Manifest Destiny as a rule. You have been taught that your freedoms were won thanks to the US troops.
Now, can you provide some examples of the freedoms you won when you invaded Hawaii, Puerto Rico, Cuba, Panama, Vietnam, Granada, Korea, Japan, Philippines, East Timor, NIcaragua, etc, etc, etc?
April 2nd, 2007 at 6:19 pmAnti-war and anti-military are two completely different things.
Comment by Spudge_Boy — April 2, 2007 @ 4:00 pm
Since we only have hacker bob’s outlook on the incident I wouldn’t rush to judgement on how the young people were expressing themselves. Perhaps they were just young thugs who were in the mood to aggravate somebody, like our trolls do. Or maybe they’re unhappy with all the money being spent on the war since taxes aren’t being paid for it now.
April 2nd, 2007 at 6:22 pmOr perhaps hacker bob was just being oversensitive.
Who knows.
shane, I am not commenting on the kids or hacker bobs experience. I am directly commenting on hacker bob putting anti-war and anti-military in the same group. Those are two completely seperate, wholly independent groups.
I served in the military, just like my father and my grand father before me. I am not anti-military.
I am 100% against the Iraq “war” I am anti-war Iraq war. But, I am 100% for the war in Afghanistan. I am pro-war in that instance.
But, in no instance am I anti-military.
April 2nd, 2007 at 6:30 pmSpudge - I signed up to defend my country.
From what , America is part of the UN which does not allow invasions of its 197 members , Tibet was never a member of the UN that was Tibets downfall to China
When Kuwait was invaded UN gave the authority to attack – Fair game
the UN does NOT get involved in Countries Internal disputes
Nobody is going to invade America ( Ever ) unless Bush or some other Neocon makes it happen
Armies are there to stop revolutions really ????? Unless its an American Army
April 2nd, 2007 at 6:30 pm#112 I am not sure how you can equate serving your country with the awful and destructive decisions of the government. So, it is either the extreme right view that all war is good and we have a right to invade anybody we want or it is the extreme left view that we should not have an army and we should shower any invading force with flowers and love? We have to have a military, just like every other country on earth AND we have to hold our government responsible for using the armed forces for disgusting reasons. I don’t see why people waste their time demonizing soldiers when they should be more concerned with the policies.
April 2nd, 2007 at 6:34 pm#115 From what , America is part of the UN which does not allow invasions of its 197 members , Tibet was never a member of the UN that was Tibets downfall to China
What??? Without Nato, the UN couldn’t stop tribal pygmies from the deepest jungles of Africa from taking over anything they wanted to. And you are high if you think the UN would have done anything to China.
April 2nd, 2007 at 6:36 pmI don’t see why people waste their time demonizing soldiers when they should be more concerned with the policies.
Comment by JPark
I completely agree. I dont attack soldiers either. As any other example, soldiers are the lowest economic class looking for a better life. You cant demonize that, of course. Now, people (governments) who take advantage of that in order to get profits, that we should condemn. Agreed.
Now, after 200+ years of US you had to defend from who, exactly?
April 2nd, 2007 at 6:38 pm#118 You think if we didn’t have a military we wouldn’t have been attacked?
April 2nd, 2007 at 6:41 pmAnd that would be your opinion, which you are welcome to and I have no problem with you feeling that way. It is when you fire off the “blood money” comments that you are offensive. But, maybe you are trying to be offensive, which is up to you also, but if you keep it up, it will be up to me to treat you like a troll.
April 2nd, 2007 at 6:45 pmthe UN could do nothing to China , Tibet never recognised the UN that was Tibets downfall , How can the Un protect Tibet when it was never a member ???????
Tribal pigmies would be an Internal dispute therefore the UN has no power just like Yugoslavia
No one will ever invade America – But America is slowly destroying the UN
April 2nd, 2007 at 6:47 pm“blood money†comments that you are offensive
I think you are taking it personally when Im talking Generally
April 2nd, 2007 at 6:50 pmYou think if we didn’t have a military we wouldn’t have been attacked?
Comment by JPark
Ha ha. Smart question.
The only possible answer: we will never know.
Still you havent answered the fundamental question. You have invaded and occupied 200 countries since the US was formed (without mentioning the genocide against natives), yet you think US forces are for defense? Come on. Maybe if you say, american corporate defense, I would agree. Im trying to reach your most progressive part, the one that has left all nationalism aside and consider human beings as citizens of the world.
April 2nd, 2007 at 6:50 pm#123 Actually, I have invaded and occupied exactly 0 countries. I get your point. The troops haven’t been used in a positive way. You seem to be thinking that because I find a military necessary that I approve of the things that have been done with it. However, if we didn’t have a military we wouldn’t be here and while that may be fine with you across the pond it is not fine with me.
April 2nd, 2007 at 7:03 pm#122 You stated that “joining the American military is nothing but blood money”. That directly pertains to Spudge as he was in the military. That is personal. It is in no way general. It is aimed at anybody that has ever joined the American military.
April 2nd, 2007 at 7:05 pm#121 I didn’t say an internal dispute. If they decided to invade another country the UN could always scold them. But if it is not backed up by force it is rather toothless.
the UN could do nothing to China , Tibet never recognised the UN that was Tibets downfall , How can the Un protect Tibet when it was never a member ???????
China IS a member, however and there are international laws. That is why the Iraq war is illegal. Because we are bound by treaties. The UN did nothing because it was fat and happy with all of its member states (yes, especially the US) not wanting to upset a huge trading partner.
April 2nd, 2007 at 7:11 pmActually, I have invaded and occupied exactly 0 countries. I get your point. The troops haven’t been used in a positive way.
Comment by JPark
That really doesnt matter. Check all your index approvals at the beginning of almost every US military intervention and, in any case they show that the majority agree with that intervention. Again, this is nothing new: short, meaningless victories always reinforce the chavinistic feeling in any country. Just ask the Germans.
However, if we didn’t have a military we wouldn’t be here and while that may be fine with you across the pond it is not fine with me.
April 2nd, 2007 at 7:12 pmComment by JPark
mmm, make that across the Rio Bravo. And if you say: hey, Im ok with millions of natives killed, millions of civilians dead in foreign lands for everything but the defense of my freedoms, then what makes me you different from trolls?
You are right.
When you say:
And I have joined the military. I take it fu*king personally.
April 2nd, 2007 at 7:17 pmApologies Spudge dont mean to offend you ……..
April 2nd, 2007 at 7:22 pm#127 That really doesnt matter. Check all your index approvals at the beginning of almost every US military intervention and, in any case they show that the majority agree with that intervention. Again, this is nothing new: short, meaningless victories always reinforce the chavinistic feeling in any country. Just ask the Germans.
However, if you checked my index approvals they would be awfully similar to yours. And yes, I am disturbed by my government and many of the people. I used to think something like WWII Germany couldn’t happen here but I have my doubts now. But you are talking to people who try to change the government in a positive way. I don’t see how you can be so condescending to those who are trying to be part of the solution.
mmm, make that across the Rio Bravo. And if you say: hey, Im ok with millions of natives killed, millions of civilians dead in foreign lands for everything but the defense of my freedoms, then what makes me you different from trolls?
Nice strawman. Knock it down all you want. If you want to attack people, make sure it is someone that deserves it.
April 2nd, 2007 at 7:25 pmWOW, disappear for a couple hours and look what I missed.
I think we all agree that the purpose of a military is supposed to be defensive, not offensive. We can all look at how the US military has been used by both Republicans and Democrats for reasons it was not intended. We can all hate the current war for our own reasons. But that is a decision made by the administration, not the soldiers. Do not demonize them. They are doing the best they can in a bad situation.
Just because someone joins the military does not mean that they doing it for “blood money”. Most of us, Spudge and I for example, did not join in order to go kill people. We joined to serve and protect our country. Yes, that includes the “National Interest” which we all know tends to lean toward the economic interests of our country.
April 2nd, 2007 at 7:37 pmApologies Spudge I did not mean to offend you …….sorry.
Im Not anti America – I just have not seen eye to eye with American Foreign policies for many many years – democrat or Neocon
I met a fantastic American guy the other day in Scotland – unfortunately I meet more Jakes than nice guys
I try to remember the nice ones as representives of your country
April 2nd, 2007 at 7:42 pmI dont know if this went through:
I don’t see how you can be so condescending to those who are trying to be part of the solution.
Comment by JPark
I am confronting ideas. I think thats what discussions are made of, and learning, too. I dont see whats wrong with that. Should we all agree in all matters? That would be boring.
If you want to attack people, make sure it is someone that deserves it.
Comment by JPark
Why are you so sensitive? Did I attack you? I posed a valid question. You said, it doesnt matter what happened, Im just grateful to be here. And I ask, why is that different than saying invade everybody as long as I am secure. Can you answer it in good terms?
April 2nd, 2007 at 7:44 pmGood enough for me. Apology accepted.
And if you met me in Scotland, I am Scottish, I would toss back a few pints and bash the neocons with you until the sun came up.
I will get to go there someday.
April 2nd, 2007 at 7:48 pm#133 Wow, Juan. I said it doesnt matter what happened, Im just grateful to be here. ?
Your prejudices won’t allow you to understand my point of view, will they?
April 2nd, 2007 at 7:48 pmJust because someone joins the military does not mean that they doing it for “blood moneyâ€. Most of us, Spudge and I for example, did not join in order to go kill people. We joined to serve and protect our country. Yes, that includes the “National Interest†which we all know tends to lean toward the economic interests of our country.
I agree well worded – I would not think people join the military for just killing for the sake of, and in different times joining the military could be a worthwhile job
April 2nd, 2007 at 7:50 pm#127 And if you say: hey, Im ok with millions of natives killed, millions of civilians dead in foreign lands for everything but the defense of my freedoms, then what makes me you different from trolls?
You actually consider this a valid argument? It was an attack since I said nothing remotely of the sort. It was a strawman.
April 2nd, 2007 at 7:50 pm#136 and in different times joining the military could be a worthwhile job
Most did not join with the intention of getting between Bush and his Oedipal bloodfest. Most are not happy with their 3rd tour of duty. Most are not happy doing a job they weren’t trained for. Many are against the war.
April 2nd, 2007 at 7:54 pmSpudge_Boy
I will get to go there someday. Your more than welcome to stay at mine
just ask for a Bill in Forres
April 2nd, 2007 at 7:59 pmThis surge is only about buying time to secure contracts for the big oil company rip- offs. All Iraqi people, all us troops are only sacrificial. Contracts should be signed by September and we can magically pull 50% of our troops. It is l insanity by Cheney/Bushco.
April 2nd, 2007 at 8:00 pmWm
Again:
And I went:
hey, Im ok with millions of natives killed, millions of civilians dead in foreign lands for everything but the defense of my freedoms, then what makes me you different from trolls?
This is not an argument. This is a question. Probably a not nice one, but still it is a valid question. So far, your military have specialized in attacking other countries and, looking at Katrina, I wouldnt say the military did a great job (of course, due to the inefficiency of its leaders). So, my question is a valid one.
According to you, you wouldnt be here, if it wasnt for your military; I said what your military has done since the beginning and knowing that you know what your military has done (you said you didnt agree with those actions), I ask you, then whats different, in that line of reasoning, in comparison with someone saying, yeah, invade every country, otherwise we wouldnt be here.
It is a valid, not insulting question. My point is that justification of wrong doings in the past are no different than justification of wrong doings at present time. Can you see that before you jump on me?
April 2nd, 2007 at 8:01 pmThis is not an argument. This is a question. Probably a not nice one, but still it is a valid question. So far, your military have specialized in attacking other countries and, looking at Katrina, I wouldnt say the military did a great job (of course, due to the inefficiency of its leaders). So, my question is a valid one.
No, it isn’t valid. I don’t support US aggression so your question is misplaced and I do what I can (which isn’t a whole) lot to change it. What would you have me do? Move somewhere else? Apologize to every Native American I meet? For the last time. I support the defense of the US with a military…not any attack, invasion, bombing, black ops that don’t have anything to do with directly defending us.
It is a valid, not insulting question. My point is that justification of wrong doings in the past are no different than justification of wrong doings at present time. Can you see that before you jump on me?
Yes, it is insulting because I have nothing to do with the wrong doings in the past, nor in the present and I don’t see where you come off thinking that I have to answer for everything my government has done or is doing. Do you take blame for everything done by your countries government?
April 2nd, 2007 at 8:09 pmDo you take blame for everything done by your countries government?
Comment by JPark
Of course.
April 2nd, 2007 at 8:16 pm#143 Yet you are here scolding me about my government. If you are Mexican your country has your share of problems.
April 2nd, 2007 at 8:23 pmOk, I am sorry about wiping out the Native Americans, I am sorry about slavery, I am sorry about Texas (really, we shouldn’t have bothered), I am sorry about all of the southwest, I am sorry for the whole seizing the Philipines from Spain, sorry about Nicaragua (several times over), sorry about Haiti (again several times over), sorry about Korea and Vietnam, sorry about installing the Shah, sorry about Cambodia, sorry about…oh, screw it, sorry about everything my country has done. I should have done something.
April 2nd, 2007 at 8:35 pm#29
I can’t say for sure, but there’s a “Jake” over at newshounds the last couple of days. He just showed up….about the same time he quit posting all the time here. Obviously I don’t know it for certain, but it sounds like Jake (w/o the “ignore” list–just giving it time). I hope it is Jake, I would hate to think there were two of them out there.
April 2nd, 2007 at 9:11 pmDo you take blame for everything done by your countries government?
Comment by JPark
Of course.
Comment by Juan C #143
Juan, J Park
If an individual sits idly by and does not seek to fight injustice…
…then THAT individual is guilty of “supporting” said injustice…
…if an individual allows members of his/her family or others in his/her sphere of influence…
…to espouse (in his/her presence) ignorant thoughts, attitudes, and philosophies…
…and does not actively and vehemently denounce such ignorance…
…then he/she “supports” it…
…going along to get along…
…is HYPOCRISY, pure and simple…
…the TRUTH is not “fair and balanced”…
…and it WILL set one free…
April 2nd, 2007 at 9:31 pmI should have done something.
Comment by JPark
I live in Mexico but Im from Argentina. I cant vote here nor do I vote in Mexico. I am democracy outcast. However, I dont believe in democracy either. We have democracy here, but 60 million people are poor, I would like somebody tell a poor woman with two kids selling chewing gum under a bridge: What do you worry about? You live in a democracy.
This has nothing to do with our discussion just some personal background.
I dont think the problem is doing something or not, I think we should be aware of what we have done to others. Just that. Thats the only way to progress, in my opinion. I dont know why are you so defensive if you didnt promote or support any of the things you mentioned.
…the TRUTH is not “fair and balancedâ€â€¦
…and it WILL set one free…
Comment by big papa
Im working on that, big papa. Believe me.
April 2nd, 2007 at 9:52 pmOVEREXTEND AND OVERUTILIZE THE TROOPS—-A GREAT FORMULA FOR TROOP BURNOUT AND GREATER CASULTIES FROM UNWARINESS COMPOUNDED BY EXHAUSTION—GOOD GOING, CHIMPya AND “SMART” GENERALS IN COMMAND OF THE FLAWED STRATEGY!!!!! THIS IS CRIMINAL AND ILLEGAL TREATMENT OF OUR BRAVE SERVICE PERSONNEL AND SHOULD BE PUNISHED BY MAKING THESE TRANSGRESSORS, i.e., CHIMPya, FRANKENCheney, Rove, Bartlett, Rice, McPAIN, Graham, all the repugnant-repub rightwing crank fudge-pachyderms WHO CONTINUE TO SUPPORT THIS CRIMINAL INVASION OF Iraq’s SOVERIGN TERRITORY, ALL OF Bushland Uber Allies PUT ON UNIFORMS AND FIGHT FOR THEIR MISTAKEN BELIEFS AND SEE HOW THEY LIKE IT—-THEY WOULDN’T LAST THIRTY SECONDS OUT THERE!!!!!
April 2nd, 2007 at 11:12 pmOn the news Monday night, it was reported that some ofthese troops will be on their FIFTH tour of duty in Iraq! Holy crap!
April 2nd, 2007 at 11:28 pm#148 I dont think the problem is doing something or not, I think we should be aware of what we have done to others.
I am fully aware of the misdeeds of the US. But I knew them before you got on your pedestal.
April 3rd, 2007 at 2:10 amBut I knew them before you got on your pedestal.
Comment by JPark
I live in Latinamerica, there are no pedestals here but holes.
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:38 amHot Garden Fountain Freak
Although i totally disagree with you, i still appreciate you\’re post. (but you\’re wrong here :) )
March 20th, 2008 at 11:03 pmJack
Man, your mind fascinates me. Thanks again for sharing.
April 3rd, 2008 at 6:36 am