ThinkFast: April 3, 2007
ThinkFast: April 3, 2007
“They were just making fun of us and paid this visit just for their own interests,” said Jaafar Moussa Thamir, a merchant in the Shorja market visited by Sens. John McCain (R-AZ) and Lindsey Graham’s (R-SC) congressional delegation. “Do they think that when they come and speak few Arabic words in a very bad manner it will make us love them?”
In the “latest evidence of stepped up sectarian and insurgent killings outside Baghdad,” a “truck bomber carrying food supplies killed eight Iraqi schoolgirls and a baby in the northern oil city of Kirkuk on Monday as suspected Sunni militants executed 21 Shiite workers north of Baghdad.”
The Justice Department has notified Italia Federici that she is a target of the ongoing Abramoff investigation. Federici is the former girlfriend of Stephen Griles, the most senior Bush official thus far convicted in the Abramoff probe. Federici offered Abramoff access to high-level Bush administration officials in return for money.
“Despite repeated requests from a House committee chairman and government investigators, the Pentagon has failed to hand over its official assessments of the readiness of US-trained Iraqi security units to take over key functions from the US military.”
“His job on the line, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales shelved plans for a family vacation and began prepping yesterday for a showdown with senators over the firings of federal prosecutors.”
Meghan O’Sullivan, President Bush’s “top day-to-day adviser on Iraq,” who has “played a key behind-the-scenes role in implementing Bush’s controversial Iraq policies over the past four years, will leave later this spring.” O’Sullivan, 37, was known for her “steady optimism over the eventual outcome in Iraq.”
Lawmakers are calling for the resignation of NASA’s Inspector General, who “created a hostile and dysfunctional workplace…and compromised his independence by appearing to be close to former NASA administrator Sean O’Keefe.”
“The world needs at least 4 million health care professionals, the director-general of the World Health Organization said Tuesday.” The crisis is “most severe in sub-Saharan Africa, which accounts for 24% of the global burden of diseases but has only 3% of the health workforce.”
And finally: You, too, can now dress down Bill O’Reilly. Or dress him up. Cartoon Doll Emporium has released an interactive O’Reilly dress-up doll (falafel not included).
What did we miss? Let us know in the comments section.
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What did we miss? Let us know in the comments section.
You seem to have missed ‘Operation Bite‘ again.
Only three more days…
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:07 am“His job on the line, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales shelved plans for a family vacation and began prepping yesterday for a showdown with senators over the firings of federal prosecutors.â€
Don’t worry, Alberto. After this is over, you’ll have a nice, long vacation…15 to 20, I’m thinking.
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:09 am“Prepping” to Gonzales MAY mean that he finally reads something; that is, if he can read at all.
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:10 amAnyone wonder why we will have no health care personnel soon? When you have Big Insurance (people with a high school education or a basic college degree) running medicine with no medical background or training, it’s a prescription for disaster. And this health care “disaster” is right around the corner for all of us. Why would any young person choose to become a doctor and have his practice of medicine dictated by some bureaucratic dolt sitting on some phone line looking at a chart to see if this patient will be “allowed” to have the surgery he/she needs? That is not what the practice of medicine is or should be all about.
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:13 amThank you for the link to red ice creations, most excellent
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:13 amSimian Sojourner-san………
Comment by TripMaster Monkey — April 3, 2007 @ 9:07 am
In four more days, will you come back here and admit you were wrong when this doesn’t happen? Just asking.
There is no validity to this.
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:13 amI sure hope we get to admit we were wrong in four days time.
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:17 amThe good news is that most of the progressive posters here have the ability and the hutzpah to admit it when we are in error.
hacker bob sez:
I’ll be happy to. I pray that this is wrong.
Frankly, I don’t see how Chimpy would be able to pull this off…there would be rioting in the streets of every city in the nation if he tried this stunt.
I’m just saying that this rumor isn’t going away…on the contrary, it’s gaining momentum. General Ivashov is calling for an emergency session of the United Nations Security Council. Even if “Operation Bite” isn’t real at all, someone is going to a great deal of trouble to make it appear as if it is, which is in itself newsworthy.
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:19 amO’Sullivan apparently knew nothing about Iraq before being appointed Bremer’s deputy at CPA. Her boss the isreal firster hadley admitted as much yesterday.
Four years later she’s pimped as the junta’s leading “expert” on Iraq?
No knowledge, no real experience and a record of abject failure.
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:23 amIs there a professorship at Georgetown waiting for her?
There is no validity to this.
Comment by hacker bob
It’s possible you are right, Robert.
What if you are wrong? What would your reaction be to this action?
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:25 amhacker bob sez:
I’m curious, bob….what makes you so certain? What is your security clearance, anyway?
Don’t you think that our government could make plans you’re not privy to? Just asking.
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:30 amWhat if you are wrong? What would your reaction be to this action?
Comment by Zooey — April 3, 2007 @ 9:25 am
I know I wouldn’t be happy about it to say the least. I do not think we need to do anything like this. We do need to give diplomacy more time, regardless of how many times Iran thumbs their nose at the UN. Iran is trying to build a case for war, we (US and Britain) need to remain calm and NOT let it happen.
TMM,
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:31 amIsn’t it amazing how the ‘net and the blogs are shaping reality?
The 15 sailors held in Iran make a good excuse (for Bush and Blair) to attack.
I saw a news story where Blair says, “The next 2 days will be fairly critical,” in resolving the conflict.
What comes after “the next 2 days”?
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:32 am“His job on the line, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales shelved plans for a family vacation and began prepping yesterday for a showdown with senators over the firings of federal prosecutors.â€
He must be trying to get his lies straight since the truth does not need to be prepared.
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:33 am“They were just making fun of us and paid this visit just for their own interests,†said Jaafar Moussa Thamir, a merchant in the Shorja market visited by Sens. John McCain (R-AZ) and Lindsey Graham’s (R-SC) congressional delegation. “Do they think that when they come and speak few Arabic words in a very bad manner it will make us love them?â€
Yes sir, they were using you. I’m ashamed of the whole sordid thing.
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:34 amOMG an iraqi telling reality on the ground as it is.Unfortunately iraqi opinions do not count.
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:34 am“Despite repeated requests from a House committee chairman and government investigators, the Pentagon has failed to hand over its official assessments of the readiness of US-trained Iraqi security units to take over key functions from the US military.â€
No more requests, step it up to demands or even subpoenas, if possible.
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:35 amComment by TripMaster Monkey — April 3, 2007 @ 9:30 am
I have a TS/SCI clearance. I work on a Generals staff in a tactical planning and support group. I attend 2 security briefs a day about in theater operations. So, I do not rely on a conspiracy website to get my intel.
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:41 amIsn’t this normal for w and his cronies? Appoint someone totally out of touch with whatever expertise is required. All the person needs is loyalty and optimism for the direction that is predetermined. The appointee will step up and start spinning as wildly as possible. The shaping of Iraq by Gertrude Bell certainly left something to be desired. O’Sullivan can leave with the occupation still in turmoil, but she can say that things are going so well. I have to agree with Klyde that some college sinecure is waiting for her to spread her deep knowledge of Iraq and the ME.
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:45 amSen. Graham’s and Sen. McCain’s publicity stunt in Iraq was vulgar, and they have made the entire US Senate to look foolish, so they must resign
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:46 amfrom the Congress immediately in disgrace.
Marine Opposed to War Ordered Discharged
I found his bootcamp experience very disturbing.
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:49 amHacker Bob, have you broken any security rules by leaking official information?
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:52 amCaption:
“Nyuck, Nyuck , Nyuck”
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:53 am“His job on the line, Attorney General Alberto Gonzales shelved plans for a family vacation and began prepping yesterday for a showdown with senators over the firings of federal prosecutors.â€
Abu Gonzales’ defense: But I came from a poor family. My dad was an alcoholic. Um, I’m Hispanic, why are you discriminating against me? Ok, ok! I’ve covered Geroge W. Bush’s ass for years, so he wouldn’t face criminal charges!! Waaaaah!!
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:55 amThe boy king in 10 minutes! Time to get your barf bags ready.
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:56 amCaption Contest..”Three blind mice”…..
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:58 amComment by trueblue — April 3, 2007 @ 9:49 am
The guy should never have enlisted in the USMC if he was a conscientious objector.
Now, the way the DIs behaved needs to be investigated when it comes to the suicide incident. When I was in bootcamp (1993) we were shown video of US Soldiers being dragged through the streets of Somolia. You know, it’s called CNN. I seriously doubt they showed anything that would not have been shown in the MSM. As for the gunbattle videos, again, nothing you can’t see in the MSM or on the Discovery channel.
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:59 amHacker Bob, have you broken any security rules by leaking official information?
Comment by west virginia hillbilly — April 3, 2007 @ 9:52 am
No, because I have not leaked any info. Now if something was planned and I confirmed it, then I would be leaking.
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:00 am(another) caption:
Daryll, Daryll, and his brother Daryll
(sorry, Daryll………)
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:02 amI don’t wonder what the value an purpose of the highlighting of this detail in that passage was, instead of that of a higher number of people being killed elsewhere.
I think everyone knows and why and what the value of such details is. That they are overtly treated as valuable is revealing none the less though.
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:03 amThe guy should never have enlisted in the USMC if he was a conscientious objector.
He wasn’t his exposure to the Marine culture of death turned him into one.
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:03 amDoes anyone else find it highly ironic that while the Chimp runs around pounding his chest about Iran developing its nuclear capabilities (which it has a right to do), nobody mentions the obvious fact that the only nation to ever use a nuclear weapon on anyone is the United States. And to make matters more ironic, the only country on earth in recent months to make a threat of using nuclear weapons on another country is Israel, our little clone in the middle east.
Given the actions of this country in the last 5 1/2 years, I think the world community should be demanding that the Untied States and Israel do away with their nuclear capabilities. There seems to be a much greater threat of the button being pushed by the man child in the White House than anyone in Iran (who is probably 5-10 years away from having that capability anyway).
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:06 amOne of the Iraqi natives did “complement McCain for leaving the Green Zone, unlike the Iraqi government leaders, so while he’s a fraud, he’s not as much of a fraud as the Iraqi government which should give us great confidence in the future.”
I think we just found McCain’s campaign slogan:
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:11 am“Vote for McCain. He’s not as much of a fraud as the Iraqi government.”
Now if something was planned and I confirmed it, then I would be leaking.
Comment by hacker bob
Then you’d have to change your name to “Leaky Bob.” :D
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:12 am#13 trueblue
The 15 sailors held in Iran make a good excuse (for Bush and Blair) to attack.
I’ve seen and heard a lot of theories lately about this episode and why it took place, from an Iranian perspective and from the UK/US perspective.
Some are saying that the UK violated Iranian waters to try to provoke something that they and the US could respond to. I don’t know. Is Tony Blair that stupid that he hasn’t learned his lesson after being burned by Bush so many times?
Others have said that Iran captured the sailors outside of their territorial waters so that they have hostages to prevent Bush from starting a war. That doesn’t work, either. They could have 5,000 hostages and that wouldn’t stop Bush. He can justify wasting innocent lives for anything and the righties would all back him to the hilt.
What I think happened is that the sailors were testing Iranian defenses. They wanted to see how close to, or how far inside, Iranian waters they could go before Iran took action. The Brits claim that they were 1.7 nautical miles outside of Iranian waters. That’s roughly a stone’s throw. Eventually, the testing would turn to provocation, but I think it’s just testing right now. And, it’s probably happening on land and in the air, too.
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:13 amComment by klyde — April 3, 2007 @ 10:03 am
It was? I didn’t see that anywhere in the article.
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:17 amWhat the h*ll is he doing joining the Marines if he has an aversion to war???
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:19 am#30 No, Kilo, I don’t understand what you mean by value. Maybe I’m just a Dumbocrat. Please spell out more clearly what you are trying to say.
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:23 amZabala said he was troubled during boot camp in 2003 when a fellow recruit committed suicide and a superior used profanities to belittle the recruit. Zabala said he was “abhorred by the blood lust (the superior) seemed to possess,” according to a 2006 court petition for conscientious-objector status.
Another boot camp instructor showed recruits a “motivational clip” showing Iraqi corpses, explosions, gun fights and rockets set to a heavy metal song that included the lyrics, “Let the bodies hit the floor,” the petition said. Zabala said he cried, while other recruits nodded their heads in time with the beat.
If you can read those two paragraphs and come to a different conclusion it is only because you want to.
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:26 amDid you read it, Dale?
It was the blood lust he witnessed during boot camp that changed him.
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:26 amchimpeach,
Interesting ideas re: British sailors.
They’re all scary.
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:27 am:0
And oh yes let’s make sure we investigate those two DIs. Because it is always those individuals never the system.
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:27 amThere is no validity to this.
Comment by hacker bob — April 3, 2007 @ 9:13 am
And you know this how? Really if you had the security clearance to know about these things would you be allowed to post information here.
Please know we will be happy when this information proves to be inaccurate.
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:30 am#40, sure I read it. The article didn’t say that he developed his ‘aversion to killing’ in boot camp. It just said he was “abhorred by the blood lust (the superior) seemed to possess,” no info on how he felt BEFORE boot camp.
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:37 amMcCain visit results is murder of market workers:
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:37 am
Another caption:
My colleague here had his dentures stolen from his bedside last night. We suspect Ned Lamont of committing this foul deed.
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:39 amThe latest massacre of Iraqi children came as 21 Shia market workers were ambushed, bound and shot dead north of the capital.
The victims came from the Baghdad market visited the previous day by John McCain, the US presidential candidate, who said that an American security plan in the capital was starting to show signs of progress.
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:39 am
Dale,
You must have sucked at Reading Comprehension in school.
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:39 ammccain/mcflight. same shit/different day. it like, “look mom, i’m on top of the world.” Men without immagination or intelligence. Incompetence at it best.
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:40 am#39 klyde
I think hacker bob called it right. If someone enlists, they have to be aware that they stand a good chance of being exposed to the horrors of war. That’s the nature of the job.
But, the DI was way over the line trying to make it seem like a thrill ride. I think you can toughen recruits and make them good fighters without trying to get them to think that killing is fun.
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:42 amComment by klyde — April 3, 2007 @ 10:26 am
I am curious. Why did the LCpl file a petition in 2006 for an incident in 2003? Why did it take 3 years for this “change” to happen?
Comment by klyde — April 3, 2007 @ 10:27 am
Umm… it’s the Marine Corps. We do not train using bunnies and rainbows. Yes, there is an environment of harshness and violence in training. You can not go into combat thinking it is going to be easy and that the enemy is going to treat you kindly. But there is also a level of going too far with it. Yes, I would be willing to bet that the DI’s showed something in their “DI Time” that maybe the Recruit Training Regiment didn’t approve.
But I would also be willing to bet that you think these Marines should not be learning Martial Arts, Marksmanship, CQB, Bayonet drills, and such either. After all, they can learn that on the battlefield.
Military bootcamp is a method of sorting out those that can not face the realities of combat. If you can’t hack it in boot, you have no chance on the battlefield. No matter what the DIs did, it is nothing compared to the reality of combat. Not by a long shot.
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:42 am#48, and trueblue, you must’ve done very well at jumping-to-conclusions 101. This guy, before he was given the discharge (which I think was the correct decision, btw) refused to even handle a weapon at his Reserve meetings.
Is it plausible to you that he was just fine with handling weapons, and the thought of going to war BEFORE boot camp; then, after one ‘motivational video’ (his term) and hearing his DI verbally abusing the suicide victim, he couldn’t even touch a weapon?
Maybe, maybe not. But unless you know his state of mind BEFORE boot camp, all you or I can do is guess (yet you’re stating it as fact).
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:44 amComment by shane — April 3, 2007 @ 10:30 am
A little thing about security clearances. If it is false, I can say that openly, if it is true, I can not say a word.
So, if something was planned, I would have to be quiet about it. If something was not planned, I can say “nothing is planned”. I have revealed nothing as there is nothing to reveal.
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:44 am#50, too true, I don’t think any gunny would WANT someone in his company who thinks killing is ‘fun’.
And yes, it sounds like the DI *was* over the line.
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:45 amComment by chimpeach — April 3, 2007 @ 10:42 am
DING DING DING!!!
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:46 am#53, true, but just by saying that ‘nothing is planned’, you’re still giving away information that could potentially be used. If something is NOFORN, even if that info is a lack of a plan, you’re not really supposed to talk about it.
But I’m sure you know all of this. So to the others (assuming that Bob isn’t trying to discuss classified info), if he says that nothing is planned, well, you can’t really believe him :-)
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:48 amThen answer me this, hacker bob,
Are we planning to go into Iran at any time in the future?
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:49 amSobering remark by that merchant in Iraq.
Visit: http://OsiSpeaks.com or http://Osispeaks.org
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:49 amComment by trueblue — April 3, 2007 @ 10:49 am
I can honestly say that I have seen NOTHING at all indicating that we are planning to go to war with Iran in the near future. If there is someting at a higher level, we ain’t been told about it yet.
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:55 amThanks for answering, hacker bob.
I feel a little better.
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:58 am#34 Zooey
Heh – I read that while I was listening to ‘The Last Saskatchewan Pirate’ by the ‘Arrogant Worms’ (Canadian band). The lyrics of the song include a reference to ‘Mounty Bob’ who became ‘Salty Bob’ when he swapped sides.
April 3rd, 2007 at 11:03 amDale you too seem to be assuming what thhe man’s mindset was prior to boot camp. Seems like your commment about joining the mairnes while having an aversion to war is a judgmment on his state of mind prior to joining.
I can tell you from first hand experience that before you join your mind is one way and after you go through basic and AIT your thinking changes, and then should you ever see a body you develop still more changes mentally, and if the body is someone you know it is another change. I know from first hand experience. One trooper in my unit dies when he hotrodded a 113 and flipped it over on himself killing him instantly. It was quite the mess cleaning it up enough to ship to the arsenal for repairs. The other incident was a young man in my unit who shot himself in the head 30 feet away from me on the range at wildfliken (sp?) These incidents really affected some people and changed their outlook on the military. It did not help that our top had some bad things to say about each of them. Sadly I was not affected at all by either incident. The sight of death really did not bother me at the time, even when it was someone I knew. Things have changed since then. My only point here is that things can change and change very fast when these people are exposed to things they thought they could handle but had not one clue about it till they actually had an incident.
April 3rd, 2007 at 11:06 amhacker write the kid and ask him. Your bullshit question does not change that he joined the marines and after being exposed to it’s culture of death he chose to file for CO status.
chimpeach: That “he signed up what did he expect” doesn’t wash. He was 19-20 when he joined the marine reserve. A quick google search will turn up tons of quotes from young people who joined the RC never believing that they would be called to war. You and I don’t know what the recruiter told him but I know recruiters blow all kinds of smoke to make mission.
And the DIs, they are not the issue. The system that lets them operate the way they do is. But no one ever wants to look at that.
I have a question for everyone who is castigating the young man. Is it better for him to file for CO status and get out or would you rather he stay in and become a combat refusal or worse yet deploy with his unit and then be completely ineffective on the battlefield where his comrades lives might hinge on his actions? And why would the marines want to hold on to someone who refuses to fight, are they that desperate for numbers?
April 3rd, 2007 at 11:09 amSorry Bob I disagree, Boot Camp is not a way to get recruits acclimated to the realities of war. Nothing in boot camp even remotely approaches war. What do you get at every training session? A safety briefing. How many targets shoot back at you? How many guys next to you are there one minute and gone the next? Nope Boot camp is about getting recruits to hop when told to hop and to teach them how to hop unquestioningly while giving them the knowledge to use the tools necessary to hop. The only pressure is having the DI standing over you with a stop watch yelling at you to get moving Yadda yadda yadda. Any recruit will tell you that when they leave boot camp and reach their regular unit things are 100% different.
April 3rd, 2007 at 11:13 amOk – in all seriousness (sp?) – can a US President order an attack on another nation without approval by congress? What if the country in question was attacked by a ‘friendly’ country – say the UK or Israel – and retailiated against US forces in the region – is that a suitable justification?
Does that leave the US (and it’s allies) stuck in a war which a single person (the US President) decided to enter?
I only ask because I live in a country which is an ally of the US, has various military and trading treaties with the US and that there has been a fair bit of talk recently (mostly based on a single report in the Russian media) that an attack is planned for the 6th of April. The recent ultimatum by the UK (48 hours to resolve the situation) happens to tie in with the same date. Talk of an attack against Iran has been in the US media well before this anyway.
Is this scenario even remotely possible?
April 3rd, 2007 at 11:13 amComment by klyde — April 3, 2007 @ 11:09 am
Klyde, trust me, I would much rather he file for CO status. I am just curious as to why it took him so long to do it. If he is truly a CO, then by all means discharge him. He does need to be aware he will receive no benefits since he did not complete his contract. And the fact that he joined the Marine Corps. I mean really, we are not an organization known to be soft and tender. Anyone that joins the USMC should have the expectation that at sometime they will have to go to war. Anything else is just foolish.
I have nothing against those that can not complete the training. But anytime someone waits 3 years to file a complaint about something, it makes me suspicious.
As for the DIs and how they operate. Do you know the amount of restrictions that are placed on DIs these days? It is not like the WWII and Viet Nam days. Training has changed a lot. And it is not like you see in Hollywood movies. Some DIs go overboard. Keep in mind, that no matter the amount of regulation you have, there will always be someone that goes overboard.
How would you propose the system should work? You have the complaints, but do you have any answers?
April 3rd, 2007 at 11:24 amOh yea what kind of depraved mind equates basic combat training with: deriding a young man who committed suicide and slide shows of dead Iraqis set to “Bodies?”
April 3rd, 2007 at 11:26 am#62, yes, as I stated in #52, none of us knows what his state of mind was before joining. Which is what I pointed out originally; the comment was made It was the blood lust he witnessed during boot camp that changed him, I said that there was no info on how he felt BEFORE boot camp..
I was accused of having sucked at Reading Comprehension, so I responded But unless you know his state of mind BEFORE boot camp, all you or I can do is guess (yet you’re stating it as fact).
I think I made it pretty clear that all any of us can do is guess at his prior state of mind.
And yes, I went through boot camp also, I saw training accidents, and I saw someone attempt suicide (though not succeed), so I know how outlooks can change. This guy came from a military family though… which would’ve given him a better inkling of military life (and death) than your average enlistee.
April 3rd, 2007 at 11:28 am#67, Klyde, I don’t think anyone here has tried to make excuses for the DI’s.
April 3rd, 2007 at 11:30 amComment by Mark — April 3, 2007 @ 11:13 am
Mark, I am a Marine. I never said acclimated to combat, infact, I said that nothing they teach you compares to combat. But you need to learn to use the tools. You are a/were in the military, so you understand “violence of action” and desensitization. Those are things that are started in boot. You have to be taught a mindset, how to deliver a hit, and how to take one. I hate to say it, but you have to be taught to de-humanize the enemy and to think of him as a “dummy”. I know, it sucks, but that is how it is done.
April 3rd, 2007 at 11:32 amOh yea what kind of depraved mind equates basic combat training with: deriding a young man who committed suicide and slide shows of dead Iraqis set to “Bodies?â€
Comment by Klyde — April 3, 2007 @ 11:26 am
Again, that is the DIs, not the system. I personally hold individuals accountable for their action.
April 3rd, 2007 at 11:33 amI never said they were. Someone early in the thread said the DIs need to be investigated. I said the DIs don’t operate in a vacumn. If marine basic training companies are anything like Army companies the DIs report to a 1SG and a company commander. I would be hard pressed to believe that they did not know about the “Bodies” slide show and to a lesser extent the insults leveled at the trainee who committed suicide. Of course the DIs being at the bottom of the hill people closer to the top want any shit to roll down on them and that it stay there.
April 3rd, 2007 at 11:38 am#70 meet #51 Military bootcamp is a method of sorting out those that can not face the realities of combat. – Hacker Bob
Boot camp does nothing to sort out those who can’t face the realities of combat. Because nothing in boot camp remotely resembles combat. Boot camp sorts those who can accept orders and act unquestioningly from those who can’t.
April 3rd, 2007 at 11:40 amAgain, that is the DIs, not the system. I personally hold individuals accountable for their action.
The story mentioned nothing about basic combat training. The young man specifically singled out the the DIs actions. You equated their actions with combat training when you bought it up.
April 3rd, 2007 at 11:41 amThis guy came from a military family though… which would’ve given him a better inkling of military life (and death) than your average enlistee.
Comment by Dale
Oh, please, nothing in any boot camp prepares you to a military death or near death experience. Why do you think soldiers return from wars with so many psychological problems if they were trained to endure that? Human psyche cant stand wars, cant accept the fact of killing another human being and feel nothing about it, unless you are pathological (which in turn you will have other problems, there is nothig for free).
I remember the case of an argentinian soldier who killed a Brit during the Malvinas conflict, and come on, that thing lasted 71 days, 1,000 dead soldiers, there wasnt a war at all. But he remembered vividly the moment he sprayed him with the machine gun, he couldnt sleep, he couldnt have a job, etc. He went to the psychologist who told him to write the dead Brit a letter. The letter was heartbreaking.
April 3rd, 2007 at 11:52 amComment by Mark — April 3, 2007 @ 11:40 am
Mark, if you can not handle bootcamp, are you going to be effective in combat. Marine boot and Army boot may be different (actually quite different) but that is for most people the first high stress environment most kids encounter.
April 3rd, 2007 at 11:56 amDearest Juan,
Why do you think soldiers return from wars with so many psychological problems
I realize this may come as a shock but a majority of them learn to cope and continue on with life.
Human psyche cant stand wars, cant accept the fact of killing another human being and feel nothing about it
April 3rd, 2007 at 12:36 pmPossibly yours, most likely many people, but saying that all Human Psyche can’t handle it is wrong. Believe it or not some people who have been in such situations have justified it to themselves and come to terms with it.
LOOK AT THE PHOTO ACCOMPANYING THIS POST OF “THE UNHOLY THREE”—McPAIN, “RAT-FACE”Graham, and LIE-berman, A MORE DISGUSTING ARRAY OF IN-HUMAN SCUM I HAVE EVER HAD THE MISFORTUNE TO LOOK ASKANCE AT!!!!! ‘NEVER HAVE I SEEN SUCH VENOMOUS SERPENTS IN A FIRST-CLASS PHOTO-OP!!!!!” GETTING BACK TO THE COMMENTARY AT HAND, MERCHANT MR. THAMIR IS SPOT ON, RIGHT ON THE MONEY IN HIS ASSESSMENT OF THE ANTICS OF McPAIN AND RAT-FACE Graham—-WHO THE F*CK DO THESE JOKERS THINK THEY ARE, COMING AROUND AND LORDING IT OVER THE POPULACE AND SPEAKING DOWN TO THEM LIKE TWO DUTCH UNCLES? $5 FOR FIVE RUGS? THE RUG MERCHANT SHOULD HAVE GIVEN RAT-FACE Graham FIVE FINGERS CURLED IN A FIST RIGHT IN THAT LITTLE TWERP’S FACE AND KNOCKED OUT HIS RAT-TEETH FROM HIS PRIDE-SWOLLEN LITTLE HEAD AND GIVEN McPAIN MORE OF THE SAME!!!!! HAH!!!!!
DEATH TAKES NO HOLIDAY IN Iraq—-AS A MATTER OF FACT, Prince Sirki(DEATH) IS NOW ASKING FOR OVERTIME AND COMPLAINING ABOUT SWEAT-SHOP CONDITIONS BECAUSE HE GETS NO REST FROM THE INSURGENTS WHO ARE BUSY LITTLE BEAVERS BUSILY SETTING OFF BOMBS, OFTEN INCLUDING THEMSELVES AS EXTRA EXPLODED BAGGAGE TO BE CLAIMED BY DEATH!!!!!
THE MOTTO OF Bushland Uber Allies—-”NO MONEY, NO HONEY”—–Italia Federici—PIMPESSE DELUXE!!!!!
THE PENTAGRAM-pentagon IS ENTRENCHED IN ITS BUNKER, READY FOR ALL ASSULTS, AND LIKE HITLER, THESE NAZI-FASCISTS HAVE A LUGER STUCK IN THEIR MOUTHS, READY TO BLOW THEIR OWN BRAINS OUT—-WHAT BRAINS? THEY DON’T HAVE ANY—-WELL, OK, SHIT THEN!!!!!
Alberto VO5 GONZOales HAD ALSO BETTER BE READY FOR A LONG OPEN-ENDED STAY AT HIS FAVOURITE PRISON OF CHOICE—-GITMO! PERHAPS GONZO COULD TAKE HIS FAMILY FOR A VACATION THERE—HOT AND COLD RUNNING RATS AND LOTS AND LOTS OF BLAZING NIGHTMARISH SUNSHINE!!!!!! HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH!!!!! HAH!
Meghan O’Sullivan AND HER CRIMINALLY IMBECILIC POLLYANNA FOOLISH OPTIMISM—-LEAVING AT LAST? GOOD RIDDANCE TO BAD RUBBISH—Meghan ME LASS, COULDYA TAKE THE DIVILL MONKEY-BOY CHIMPya AND FRANKENCheney ALONG WIT’ YA WHEN YA LEAVE, NOW THERE’S A BONNY LASS!!!!! AND MAY DEWER’S SEVEN WHIST HOUNDS OF HELL SIT ON THE SPOOL OF YER BREASTS AND BARK IN AT YER SOUL-CASES!!!!!
Sean O’Keefe, YA FILTHY OIRISH BASTID, TAKE YE BLASTID TOADY THE NASA INSPECTOR GENERAL WITH YE, AND MAY YE BOTH BE ALWAYS DEFEATED IN EVERY ENGAGEMENT YE BOTH TAKE PART IN, AND IN EVERY ASSEMBLY YE ATTEND, MAY YE BOTH BE SPAT UPON AND REVILED, BY THE NAME OF THE ALMIGHTY AND ST. PADRAIG AS WELL!!!!!
AND THERE ARE LESS HEALTH CARE PROFESSIONALS BECAUSE OF THE UNFOSTERING CLIMATE FOR ADVANCEMENT WITHIN THE HEALTH CARE INDUSTRY, i.e., THE PRIMARY PROBLEM BEING GLOBALIZATION OF THE LABOUR MARKET THAT HAS DIRECTLY BEEN THE CAUSE OF THE “SHORTAGE OF HEALTH CARE PROFESSIONALS, DOCTORS AND NURSES. THOUSANDS OF DOCTORS, NURSES AND PHARMACISTS FROM DEVELOPING COUNTRIES THAT NEED THEM THERE HAVE EMIGRATED FROM THE POOR COUNTRY OF THEIR BIRTH TO WEALTHIER WESTERN NATIONS(U.S., U.K., ETC.) WITH AGEING POPULATIONS IN SEARCH OF BETTER-PAYING AND BETTER-PAID JOBS—A TREND THAT MANY HEALTH EXPERTS CONSIDER A CRIPPLING BRAIN AND SKILL DRAIN FOR THEIR HOME COUNTRIES.”(QUOTED FROM Kohn Gui Qing, “Developing world has acute shortage of health workers-WHO” 03 April 2007 10:50:40 GMT, REUTERS)
THIS Bill O’LIE-lly DOLL ALSO HAS A PULL-STRING WHICH WHEN PULLED, MAKES Bill-O SAY SUCH POIGNANT PHRASES AS “I HATE Keith Olbermann!!!!!” “The Spin DOESN’T STOP Here,” “SHUT UP Al Franken You Pipsqueak!” “I Am A CULTURE WARRIOR–GET THAT F*CKING COCKROACH OUT OF HERE—YEEEEEEE—-I HATE COCKROACHES!!!”
April 3rd, 2007 at 12:40 pm“OPINE, You SWINE, OPINE” and “I Clean Out Master Roger Ailes’ ANUS With My Tongue EACH MORNING,” ETC. ETC.
Tundra:
Whatever makes me you feel better.
April 3rd, 2007 at 12:54 pmPossibly yours, most likely many people, but saying that all Human Psyche can’t handle it is wrong. Believe it or not some people who have been in such situations have justified it to themselves and come to terms with it.
Comment by Tundra
And others sit by the side of the road, with crude hand-drawn signs, pleading for money. In San Diego, the armed forces have a yearly “stand-down,” where vets can come for a hot meal, shower, haircut, and someone to tell their troubles to; and it’s always filled to capacity with homeless vets, who haven’t done as well psychologically. The guy who went joy-riding in a tank here a few years ago was one who didn’t. He dealt with his feelings by getting loaded. That some come to terms with their service is one side of the coin …
April 3rd, 2007 at 12:57 pmAnd Tundra, please correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t the phenomenon of “going postal” happen because of the high number of vets in the Postal system?
April 3rd, 2007 at 12:59 pmThat some come to terms with their service is one side of the coin
Well the original side that was displayed was “No Human ever can come to terms with killing someone else”
“Everyone who returns from war is screwed up for life”
I was simply displaying the other side of the coin.
April 3rd, 2007 at 1:01 pmAnd Tundra, please correct me if I’m wrong, but didn’t the phenomenon of “going postal†happen because of the high number of vets in the Postal system?
Comment by barfly — April 3, 2007 @ 12:59 pm
Researchers have found that the homicide rates per 100,000 workers at postal facilities were lower than at other workplaces. In major industries, the highest rate of 2.1 homicides per 100,000 workers was in retail. The next highest rate of 1.66 was in public administration, which includes police officers. The homicide rate for postal workers was 0.26 per 100,000. The most dangerous occupation: taxi driving, with a homicide rate of 31.54 per 100,000 workers.
April 3rd, 2007 at 1:06 pmEveryone who returns from war is screwed up for lifeâ€
I was simply displaying the other side of the coin.
Comment by Tundra
Even I wouldn’t go that far, as it presupposes that all will be exposed to the same horrors; but some will be rear echelon (like Kuwait) and not be shown the daily tragedies (and victories) of war. But for combat troops, its a different story. Each soldier has an individual tipping-point, and when reached, there is no going back. I’ve never been in war, but I have been in jobs which required me to take life, and I’ve never been able to desensitize myself to it. Or to say that it hadn’t changed me.
April 3rd, 2007 at 1:11 pmComment by Tundra — April 3, 2007 @ 1:06 pm
I’d like a link to the study, please. And this was going on for decades, so if things have changed, it’s because they’ve put programs in place to deal with the situation, which would account for your stats, if they are more recent (last decade).
April 3rd, 2007 at 1:15 pmUSPS employs 750,000 workers, including 235,985 veterans and 47,937 employees with disabilities.
A nice high percentage of vets are there though.
Even I wouldn’t go that far, as it presupposes that all will be exposed to the same horrors; but some will be rear echelon (like Kuwait) and not be shown the daily tragedies (and victories) of war. But for combat troops, its a different story.
I regularly go through the DD-214’s at the Legion post, many people there have confirmed kills listed. The guy with the most is one of the nicest most giving people I have ever met in my life. Lives each day to it’s fullest and helps whenever he can.
Everyone handles things differently, one of the problems with the current system is they are trying to have everyone follow the same steps for psychological evaluation. The military has a steps and processes for everything, but combat related stress is handled differently in each person. Evaluation cannot be done in a fast food ask this question, record that answer, have 5 counceling sessions type manner.
April 3rd, 2007 at 1:23 pmIran is trying to build a case for war, we (US and Britain) need to remain calm and NOT let it happen.
Comment by hacker bob — April 3, 2007 @ 9:31 am
Another sad case of someone living in Bass-Ackwards land…
April 3rd, 2007 at 1:29 pmWhy on earth would they have confirmed killls listed on their DD-214? It is not anything that was ever asked or recorded when I was in. In Fact mine does not have a box for it. Interesting that the ones you see somehow make allowances for the kill count.
April 3rd, 2007 at 1:30 pmI’d like a link to the study, please. And this was going on for decades, so if things have changed, it’s because they’ve put programs in place to deal with the situation, which would account for your stats, if they are more recent (last decade).
Here is one that covers 1980 through 1989 (When the high profile ones were listed)
http://www.cdc.gov/mmwR/preview/mmwrhtml/00032345.htm
April 3rd, 2007 at 1:30 pmComment by Mark — April 3, 2007 @ 1:30 pm
I have never seen a DD-214 with that either. The only thing I can think of would be if it was someone in the STA community.
April 3rd, 2007 at 1:59 pmTundra, if you will read the study closely, it doesn’t disprove the assertion that postal workers’ deaths were attributable largely to the veterans in the postal system. It doesn’t say anything about the number of servicemen in the Postal service.
And did you happen to miss this caveat?
The findings in this report are subject to at least three limitations (3). First, because the NTOF surveillance system is based only on data from death certificates, occupational injury deaths are undercounted; on average, death certificate-based surveillance systems capture approximately 81% of occupational injury deaths (7). Second, previous studies have demonstrated 60%- 76% agreement between industry and occupation information listed on death certificates and actual employment status at the time of death (3), which could be a source of misclassification. Third, death certificates provide only limited data about the circumstances of traumatic fatalities.
It doesn’t deal with the percentages of postal workers who were former vets. Do you have anything else?
April 3rd, 2007 at 2:58 pmThe white boy floppy jowl club.
April 3rd, 2007 at 4:56 pmHacker Bob, have you broken any security rules by leaking official information?
Comment by west virginia hillbilly — April 3, 2007 @ 9:52 am
No, because I have not leaked any info. Now if something was planned and I confirmed it, then I would be leaking.
Comment by hacker bob — April 3, 2007 @ 10:00 am
Now I’m calling you out. I’m retired military (retire in ‘94 after 22 years). The last 6 years I carried an TS/SCI. You might want to refresh yourself on OPSEC/COMSEC regs. If you carry an SCI you can NOT even HINT at any info you have. Hell even unclassifed info like training schedules will be protected at ALL times. THis is especially true if you have an SCI…held to much higher standards.
“I work on a Generals staff in a tactical planning and support group. I attend 2 security briefs a day about in theater operations. So, I do not rely on a conspiracy website to get my intel.” Your are violating the regs simply by acknowleging you attend the briefings, let alone IMPLYING that no such thing is discussed. So either you’re lying, or you better “check your six”.
April 3rd, 2007 at 5:31 pmOther TPers, sorry for the length of the last post, don’t get riled often but breaching security procedure and protocol kind of does that to me.
April 3rd, 2007 at 5:33 pmComment by John M, USAF, RET — April 3, 2007 @ 5:33 pm
I have not given any information that is not available via NIPRNET or public (.mil)
April 3rd, 2007 at 6:26 pm“Do they think that when they come and speak few Arabic words in a very bad manner it will make us love them?â€
Does Gingrich know about this???
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:14 pmHacker
“Your are violating the regs simply by acknowleging you attend the briefings,…”
Again, might want to check the regs. Unless they’ve changed drastically since my retirement (1994), we were taught, rather emphatically, not to even acknowledge we’d been in said briefings! If the regs have changed, then I apologize, but check them! I don’t care if the info to which you were referring is widely available, posting that you were in briefings (with the implication that no such thing as an Iran invasion was talked about) isn’t a great idea. If you worked for me I have you on the carpet so fast……
Lastly, I hope you are right. My time covered Nam to Desert Storm, Dubya broke our military, we’re not even ready for anything that big.
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:20 pmI have one simple problem with the current situation – why after four years into a conflict are we less ready than when we entered that conflict. Even in Korea and Nam, the military left the conflict in better shape than when it entered it.Our strategic forces are being neutered. Our tachtical forces are being stripped to the bone.
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:50 pmThe United States entered both WWI and WWII as a paper tiger and exited each as a world power.
Our veterans and wounded are not being cared for.
What has happened to America?
tachtical s/b tactical in my post #98
April 3rd, 2007 at 9:53 pmIn the “latest evidence of stepped up sectarian and insurgent killings outside Baghdad,†a “truck bomber carrying food supplies killed eight Iraqi schoolgirls and a baby in the northern oil city of Kirkuk on Monday as suspected Sunni militants executed 21 Shiite workers north of Baghdad.â€
This is a sin in the fullest meaning of that term. And that’s what we, the American people, allowed to happen. It’s time to stop this travesty. Tell your Senators and Representatives…cut off the funding RIGHT NOW!!! Bring our troops home. We can’t stop this nightmare we started. Iraq’s neighbors in the region have a better shot at bringing about some end to the bloodshed…even Iran. The innocent children of Iraq have suffered enough! END THIS NOW!!!
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:02 pmI regularly go through the DD-214’s at the Legion post, many people there have confirmed kills listed. The guy with the most is one of the nicest most giving people I have ever met in my life. Lives each day to it’s fullest and helps whenever he can.
Comment by Tundra — April 3, 2007 @ 1:23 pm
This also defines the Kansas City serial killer that finally got busted not too long ago. Upstanding citizen, active in his church. Jeez..perfect look at a sociopath. NORMAL people cannot kill other people and continue to be NORMAL.
#
Ok – in all seriousness (sp?) – can a US President order an attack on another nation without approval by congress? What if the country in question was attacked by a ‘friendly’ country – say the UK or Israel – and retailiated against US forces in the region – is that a suitable justification?
Does that leave the US (and it’s allies) stuck in a war which a single person (the US President) decided to enter?
I only ask because I live in a country which is an ally of the US, has various military and trading treaties with the US and that there has been a fair bit of talk recently (mostly based on a single report in the Russian media) that an attack is planned for the 6th of April. The recent ultimatum by the UK (48 hours to resolve the situation) happens to tie in with the same date. Talk of an attack against Iran has been in the US media well before this anyway.
Is this scenario even remotely possible?
Comment by ghost — April 3, 2007 @ 11:13 am
Yes.
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:31 pm[...] You make the call. Personally, I have a hard time deciding. [...]
April 4th, 2007 at 5:11 am