ThinkFast: April 10, 2007
ThinkFast: April 10, 2007
President Bush, the Vice President, Secretary of Defense, and Secretary of State all failed to mention Iraq publicly yesterday on the fourth anniversary of the “liberation” of Baghdad. Instead, “the lead item on the White House Web site, under the heading ‘LATEST NEWS,’ was a photograph of Clifford the Big Red Dog at the annual Easter Egg Roll on the South Lawn.”
MoveOn.org is hosting a “live ‘virtual town hall’ forum about the Iraq war, in what is being billed as the largest and most ambitious experiment yet in harnessing the power of Internet technology to reshape participatory democracy.” Seven Democratic presidential candidates are expected to take part in the event tonight.
Syrian President Bashar al-Assad invited Speaker Nancy Pelosi and others in her delegation that met him in Damascus last week to make a return visit, Rep. Tom Lantos said. “I have every intention of going back,” said Lantos, refusing to back down in the face of heavy criticism from the White House.
“A half-dozen sitting U.S. attorneys also serve as aides to Attorney General Alberto R. Gonzales or are assigned other Washington postings, performing tasks that take them away from regular duties in their districts for months or even years at a time, according to officials and department records.”
The late Jeane Kirkpatrick, “the godmother of the neoconservative movement,” and former U.N. ambassador who John Bolton sought to emulate, acknowledges in a posthumous memoir that the Iraq war was “something of a mistake.“
Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) yesterday said that he would have “taken his tour of an Iraqi market last week even if he hadn’t been accompanied by heavily armed U.S. soldiers.” He added that the only reason he walked through Baghdad’s Shorja market with 100 soldiers, three Blackhawks, and two Apache gunships was because “General Petraeus asked” him to do so.
“Public approval for Congress is at its highest level in a year as Democrats mark 100 days in power and step up their confrontation with President Bush over his handling of the Iraq War, the issue that overshadows all others.”
“Millions of dollars of North Korean funds, frozen for two years amid allegations of money laundering, are to be released,” the Bush administration said. “The chief US nuclear envoy said the release of the funds cleared the way for the North – which in October said it had successfully tested a nuclear weapon – to begin shutting down the reactor later this week.”
“Stem cells will be at the top of the agenda for the U.S. Senate” when it returns from recess today. The Senate will consider a bill to expand federal funding of human embryonic stem cell research. President Bush vetoed a similar bill last year.
And finally: Each year, the Thomas Jefferson Center for the Protection of Free Expression gives out Jefferson Muzzle awards to “the most egregious First Amendment violators.” This year’s winners: the Bush administration (for censoring scientists on climate change) and the Defense Department (for its “investigations of organizations that conducted peaceful anti-war protests”).
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“Rep. Tom Lantos said. “I have every intention of going back,†said Lantos, refusing to back down in the face of heavy criticism from the White House.”
Good for you, Rep. Lantos! Until the White House criticizes the Republican delegation that went to Syria, they are simply engaging in partisan rhetoric.
Then again, that’s the only type of rhetoric in which the current administration is capable of engaging!
April 10th, 2007 at 9:12 amMission Accomplished!
April 10th, 2007 at 9:14 amJeane Kirkpatrick saying the Iraq war was something of a mistake, is like saying the Titanic was in a bit of an accident.
April 10th, 2007 at 9:15 amjeanne kirkpatrick may be a grandmother to the neo-cons, but john bolton can’t hold a candle to her in terms of class… bolton is rude, crude, and socially unacceptable… kirkpatrick qualifies as more of a gutsy lady, regardless of the fact that i disagree with her completely…
And, yes, I DO take it personally
April 10th, 2007 at 9:15 amOur Oil woes keep getting worse. Gas is already up to $3.00 gallon and now…
Iran planning to stop using U.S. dollar to price oil, central bank governor says
Iran is planning to stop using the U.S. dollar to price oil, with less than half of its oil income now paid in the U.S. currency, Iran’s central bank governor said.
“That’s the plan for the future, we are working on that,” Governor Ebrahim Sheibany said in an interview Tuesday when asked if Iran was planning to stop pricing oil in dollars.
In global markets, oil is priced in U.S. dollars per barrel. “More than 50 percent of Iran’s oil income is paid in other currencies. We are reducing the dollar share and asking clients to pay in other currencies,” Sheibany said.
Sheibany said that almost all of Iran’s European clients and some of its Asian customers have accepted making payments in non-dollar currencies. “Even if we get dollars, we directly convert it to other currencies. Japanese don’t mind paying us in yen, for example,” he said.
And now Hugo Chavez is really starting to play hardball…
With President Hugo Chávez setting a May 1 deadline for an ambitious plan to wrest control of several major oil projects from American and European companies, a showdown is looming here over access to some of the most coveted energy resources outside the Middle East.
In September, President Hugo Chávez of Venezuela…stepped up the pressure on the oil companies operating here, warning that they might sell American refineries meant to process Venezuelan crude oil even as they seek new outlets in China and elsewhere around the world.
“Chávez is playing a game of chicken with the largest oil companies in the world,†said Pietro Pitts, an oil analyst “And for the moment he is winning.â€
But this confrontation could easily end up with everyone losing.
The biggest energy companies could be squeezed out of the most promising oil patch in the Western Hemisphere.
The implications are potentially stark for the United States, which imports 60 percent of its oil.
“We are on a collision course with Chávez over oil,†said Michael J. Economides, an oil consultant in Houston. “Chávez poses a much bigger threat to America’s energy security than Saddam Hussein ever did.â€
April 10th, 2007 at 9:20 am#4 – Ms. Kilpatrick had some interesting things to say about the war in Iraq:
” The administration’s failure involved several issues, but the core concern is that they did not seem to have methodically completed the due diligence required for reasoned policy-making because they failed to address the aftermath of the invasion. This, of course, is reflected by the violence, sectarian unrest, ethnic vengeance and bloodshed we see in Iraq today.”
I wonder why she took so long to wake up and open her eyes to the reality of Pres. Bush’s failed war?
One can only assume that when she’s been wrong for so long that it takes a while to confront your own failings as well as those of all the neo-con-lemmings. (Yes, USpace, we’re talking about you.)
April 10th, 2007 at 9:21 ambon anniversaire
April 6-8, 2007 — The CIA’s Counter-Proliferation Division (CPD) and British intelligence have evidence that then-Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney lost three nuclear weapons in 1991. This was later used as a pretext to create the phony Niger yellowcake uranium story in the event the nukes showed up in Iraqi hands…..
http://waynemadsenreport.com/
April 10th, 2007 at 9:21 amIf Saint McCain felt so strongly that the walk would have been perfectly safe, he should have insisted on going alone. He knew that the truth of his walk would come out and make his statements ridiculous. He lies and lies with no real consequences.
How can anyone continue to support him after he said, in effect, that he makes “mistatements” all of the time and he doesn’t care. The way the SCLM (in Eric Alterman’s words) keep talking about his straight talk is unbelievable. I guess that the SCLM are too buddy-buddy to see him with other than rose-colored glasses.
April 10th, 2007 at 9:22 amHere is the second pussy neo-con (Ford the first) to have to speak from the grave in order NOT to be on the business end of KKKarl ROve’s machiavellian pnaczi whip.
If there are those in Congress who feel that the WHOLE administration should not be impeached, then we should impeach those individuals.
TAKE NO PRISONERS!
Arrest, try, hang.
April 10th, 2007 at 9:23 amcute couple, they’ve got the same egg-sucking hound grin…..
April 10th, 2007 at 9:28 am“Public approval for Congress is at its highest level in a year as Democrats mark 100 days in power and step up their confrontation with President Bush over his handling of the Iraq War, the issue that overshadows all others.â€
The public must have gotten the impression that Democrats in Congress were starting to listen to them. They must have thought that the Dems were willing to confront the president and force him to be the one who cuts off funding for the troops with his veto pen. It must have seemed like Reid and Pelosi were moving in the right direction and taking some bold steps.
Thank God we have Carl Levin to put those silly notions to rest. Way to go, Levin, you groveling little wimp! Way to listen to the voters.
April 10th, 2007 at 9:29 amSpeaker Nancy Pelosi must of made a great impression that the Syria President is inviting the delegation back.
THREE CHEERS FOR THE SPEAKER NANCY PELOSI!!!!! RIGHT ON!!!!!!
We need to fund the Stem cells Reseach. The congress needs to over ride old Bushies veto.
Maybe McCain should of walked that Iraq market without protection so they could of kidnapped him. The guy is a old nut.
April 10th, 2007 at 9:29 amHow many more Republican bastards are supporting this lying failure of a President and his ruinous policies because they’re as cowardly as Kirkpatric who could only bring herself to a half assed admission of guilt from the grave.
April 10th, 2007 at 9:34 am#10 – “Maybe McCain should of walked that Iraq market without protection so they could of kidnapped him.” Comment by Mary Poplins — April 10, 2007 @ 9:29 am
MP, the only thing neo-con failures hate more than being caught telling their many lies is actually having to take responsibility for their tired lies.
It would have been the penultimate irony had Sen. McCain been abducted during his Iraqi market stroll.
April 10th, 2007 at 9:36 amClifford the Big Red Dog….
looks gay to me, someone call Jerry Falwell
April 10th, 2007 at 9:38 am#5 I got the impression that she knew all along that this war was poorly concieved, planned and executed but that she was being a loyal player and not criticising. Being a reaganite you can easily see where that comes from with their say nothing bad about a fellow republican mantra. She is no better than anyone else who felt the same way but kept silent out of loyalty. Loyalty to the party is once gain being shown as bad for America. Because if all of these loyal people had voiced their misgivings at the time, perhaps the mess might not be so bad today.
April 10th, 2007 at 9:40 amcaption:
Laura : “Watch where you put that hand, Cliffie!”
April 10th, 2007 at 9:42 amClifford the Big Red Dog….
looks gay to me, someone call Jerry Falwell
Comment by Anderson
Ugh, just look at that big pink bag he’s carrying…..oh, that’s Pickles, sorry.
:-D
April 10th, 2007 at 9:43 amEach year, the Thomas Jefferson Center for the Protection of Free Expression gives out Jefferson Muzzle awards to “the most egregious First Amendment violators.†This year’s winners: the Bush administration (for censoring scientists on climate change) and the Defense Department (for its “investigations of organizations that conducted peaceful anti-war protestsâ€).
I wonder if this is the first time our own government has taken these awards?
April 10th, 2007 at 9:44 amZooey,
Check here for a complete listing of all Jefferson Muzzle award recipients.
April 10th, 2007 at 9:53 amCaption
Laura thinking to herself:
It’s really hard to stand near black people and smile, good thing I dropped a hit of acid this morning look at my perma-grin.
April 10th, 2007 at 9:53 amCHIMPya, FRANKENCheney, Gates, and Rice have NOTHING WORTHWHILE TO SAY ABOUT Iraq—-NOW CLIFFORD THE BIG RED DOG(tm) IS ANOTHER MATTER ALTOGETHER, A SUBJECT OF MONUMENTAL IMPORTANCE AND NATIONAL COVERAGE, BESIDES WHICH, THE GUY IN CLIFFORD’S COSTUME HAS HIS HAND UP Laura’s…..
THAT’S WHAT I’M TALKING ABOUT!!!!! RESHAPING {PARTICIPATORY DEMOCRACY—-YEAH!!!!! A VIRTUAL TOWN HALL FORUM IS AN EXCELLENT IDEA INDEED!!!!!
NANCY AND TOM ARE GOING BACK, THE white house and Elliott Abrams HAVE ROTTEN EGG ON THEIR SAPPY FACES, AND SWIFT-BOAT-SHIT-SMEARS ARE A THING OF THE PAST AND GARBAGE TO BE TOSSED OUT WITH THE neo-CON-men and Bushland Uber Allies’ FASCIST-NAZI SCUM!!!!!
WHICH SHOWS THAT GONZOales IS SO DUMB AND INEPT, IT TAKES SIX FLUNKEYS TO HELP HIM SHARPEN PENCILS BECAUSE HE IS SO CRANIALLY CHALLENGED THAT EVEN THAT SIMPLE TASK, SO SIMPLE EVEN A CAVEMAN COULD DO IT, IS A MAJOR HURDLE FOR Alberto VO5!!!!!
Jeane Kirkpatrick, BY THE WAY, IS IN A NEW LINE OF BUSINESS–PUSHING UP DAISIES AND WORM FARMING—WE SHOULD HELP OTHER neo-CON-men LIKE Bolton, Abrams, Perle, WolfFARTWhizz, Kristol, JOIN HER IN HER ENDEAVORS—SIX FEET UNDER GROUND!!!!! WELL, Jeane, “something of a mistake” WOULD CERTAINLY QUALIFY AS THE UNDERSTATEMENT OF THE CENTURY, NICHT WAHR?????
McPAIN BEGGED Petraeus FOR ALL THIS COVER AND PLEADED WITH HIM NOT TO LET HIM WALK WITH ONLY 50 ARMED-TO-THE-TEETH SOLDIERS, ONE BLACKHAWK AND ONE APACHE GUNSHIP—WHAT A “MAN”, WHAT A “BRAVE FELLOW”, WHAT A F*CKING JOKE!!!!!
YES SIREE BOB!!!! SINCE DEMOCRATS TOOK OVER, THE EVIL MIASMA OF repugnant-repub LACK OF OVERSIGHT AND RUBBER-STAMPING CHIMPya’s AGENDA IS AT AN END, AND HEARING, INVESTIGATIONS AND CRIMINAL GRAND JURIES ARE ON THEIR WAY AS WELL—HAH HAH HAH HAH HAH!!!!! HAH!
CARROT INSTEAD OF THE STICK FOR THE north korean ASS? SEEMS TO BE MORE EFFECTIVE THAN THREATS, BULLYING AND BLUSTERING RETHORIC, NICHT WAHR, Bushland Uber Allies? PLUS THER FACT THAT YA ARE OVEREXTENDED IN Iraq AND CANNOT HANDLE CONFLICTS POSSIBLY ARISING IN Iran and North Korea SIMULTANEOUSLY!!!!!
STEM CELLS—CHIMPya NEEDS A LOT OF THEM TO GROW NEW BRAIN CELLS, Karl FAT-F*CK Rove IS UST ABOUT BURNT-OUT OR SOON WILL BE FROM MANY INVESTIGATIONS INTO HIS DASTARDLY DOINGS!!!!!
WITHOUT A DOUBT, CHIMPya and Bushland Uber Allies AND the defense dept. ARE THE NUMBER ONE MALEFACTORS IN THIS CATEGORY, WHICH ISN’T SAYING MUCH OR ANYTHING GOOD ABOUT THEIR HIGH WAR CRIMES AND VIOLATIONS OF DEMOCRATIC PROCESSES!!!!!
April 10th, 2007 at 9:54 amCheck here for a complete listing of all Jefferson Muzzle award recipients.
Comment by TripMaster Monkey
Thanks, TMM! I bookmarked the site to read later. :)
April 10th, 2007 at 9:59 amLikewise, thanks, interesting stuff………
April 10th, 2007 at 10:00 amRaymond Funamoto,
Dude, don’t hold back, tell us how you REALLY feel! :D
April 10th, 2007 at 10:00 amStem cells, How about some more research on cord-blood. That way no one can argue an ethical delima about it.
Good morning TMM
April 10th, 2007 at 10:00 am5 posts this am. None of them have showed up???
April 10th, 2007 at 10:01 amgood morning starshine,
April 10th, 2007 at 10:04 amthe earth says hellooooooo…
you twinkle aboooove us…
April 10th, 2007 at 10:04 amwe twinkle beelow..
Raymond,
Please refrain, please, from the constant caps.
Thanks, ever so.
April 10th, 2007 at 10:06 amIf the kids in Iraq could only see the kids on the South Lawn.
April 10th, 2007 at 10:07 amChildren in Lebanon get killed and maimed when they pick up the brightly colored American made trinkets…………
April 10th, 2007 at 10:10 am#
Stem cells, How about some more research on cord-blood. That way no one can argue an ethical delima about it.
Good morning TMM
Comment by hacker bob — April 10, 2007 @ 10:00 am
Sure bob, the only ethic problem involved here is the GOP doesn’t want to fund universities, so that private corporations can make all the discoveries, and rape the consumer for it’s patents.
The right needs to DROP any discussion about ethics until they gain some.
April 10th, 2007 at 10:11 amas sung by Leonard Nemoy.
April 10th, 2007 at 10:12 amWhat’s up ev’rybody?
Comment by Xbox360Fan
If more study is put into things like cord-blood and placenta tissue as a way to harvest stem-cells, it takes away any debate about embryos. Therefore the right has no room to NOT fund university research. After all, they would be doing it on what is currently considered medical waste, not human embryos.
April 10th, 2007 at 10:16 amAfghani child:”When I lose a family member, America gives me a cupcake! I have 7 cupcakes!!!Thanks America!”
a cookie to whoever can tell me who I very poorly paraphrased here..
April 10th, 2007 at 10:18 amor is it whom…..?
April 10th, 2007 at 10:18 amGas is already up to $3.00 gallon and now…
Iran planning to stop using U.S. dollar to price oil, central bank governor says
Iran is planning to stop using the U.S. dollar to price oil, with less than half of its oil income now paid in the U.S. currency, Iran’s central bank governor said.
“That’s the plan for the future, we are working on that,” Governor Ebrahim Sheibany said in an interview Tuesday when asked if Iran was planning to stop pricing oil in dollars.
In global markets, oil is priced in U.S. dollars per barrel. “More than 50 percent of Iran’s oil income is paid in other currencies. We are reducing the dollar share and asking clients to pay in other currencies,” Sheibany said.
Sheibany said that almost all of Iran’s European clients and some of its Asian customers have accepted making payments in non-dollar currencies. “Even if we get dollars, we directly convert it to other currencies. Japanese don’t mind paying us in yen, for example,” he said.
And now Hugo Chavez is really starting to play hardball…
With President Hugo Chávez setting a May 1 deadline for an ambitious plan to wrest control of several major oil projects from American and European companies, a showdown is looming here over access to some of the most coveted energy resources outside the Middle East.
In September, President Hugo Chávez of Venezuela…stepped up the pressure on the oil companies operating here, warning that they might sell American refineries meant to process Venezuelan crude oil even as they seek new outlets in China and elsewhere around the world.
“Chávez is playing a game of chicken with the largest oil companies in the world,†said Pietro Pitts, an oil analyst “And for the moment he is winning.â€
But this confrontation could easily end up with everyone losing.
The biggest energy companies could be squeezed out of the most promising oil patch in the Western Hemisphere.
The implications are potentially stark for the United States, which imports 60 percent of its oil.
“We are on a collision course with Chávez over oil,†said Michael J. Economides, an oil consultant in Houston. “Chávez poses a much bigger threat to America’s energy security than Saddam Hussein ever did.â€
April 10th, 2007 at 10:20 amThinkProgress needs to tell us about these meetings and things earlier – The Virtual Town Hall Meetings are Tonight, at 7. The notice is far too soon, I can’t go simply because I wasn’t told soon enough.
April 10th, 2007 at 10:20 amLarry from C, I think, has the most pertinent news in this entire post. This is the thing driving what’s on the news right now. One of the reasons for going into Iraq was that Saddam Hussein was also in the process of turning away from the dollar. Iran has been changing over for the past two years. Now we are stuck in Iraq and it’s getting worse by the day.
http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/04/airforce_greenzoneattacks_070407/
April 10th, 2007 at 10:24 amOfficials: Attacks on Green Zone increasing
ThinkProgress needs to tell us about these meetings and things earlier – The Virtual Town Hall Meetings are Tonight, at 7. The notice is far too soon, I can’t go simply because I wasn’t told soon enough.
Comment by Xbot
Are you being funny, Xbot? Go where? Heh.
April 10th, 2007 at 10:30 ama cookie to whoever can tell me who I very poorly paraphrased here..
Comment by whiteyfresh
No idea, whitey. I hope it’s a comedian, and not an actual Afghani child, because that would be just too horrible.
Off to classes! Have a great day!
April 10th, 2007 at 10:33 amBy DEB RIECHMANN, Associated Press Writer 5 minutes ago
WASHINGTON -
President Bush will invite Democrats to the White House to discuss their standoff over a war-funding bill, but he will not budge from his opposition to troop-withdrawal deadlines in
Iraq, the administration said Tuesday.
Sounds like the prez is planning to take the Dem’s out to the woodshed.
April 10th, 2007 at 10:42 am#39, Chavez is Nationalizing his oil. This is making the neo-cons & big oil very upset. They tried to overthrow Chavez so they could put in a president they can control. But Chavez outsmarted them and survived. Now Chavez is determined not to become a puppet of America. Its fascinating watching it unfold.
April 10th, 2007 at 10:45 amThe United States has mortgaged itself to a world which will soon consider our money worthless.
April 10th, 2007 at 11:27 amThe price of a gallon of gasoline will be meaningless when a bushel of corn costs $50.00…………..
For more on Kirkpatrick and Bush, see:
April 10th, 2007 at 11:39 am“Jeane Kirkpatrick and the Death of the Bush Doctrine.”
United States Has Become Sparta
Tueday 10th of April 2007
by Jay Randal
Sparta: city in the S. Peloponnesus, Greece, a powerful military city and state in ancient Laconia. Spartan: like or characteristic of the Spartans; warlike, severe. Warlike: fit for, fond of, or ready for war; threatening.
The birthplace of Democracy was ancient Athens: a city-state renowned for its grand ideas of governance, artistic culture, and non-warring peaceful population. The Athenians believed in diplomacy and not warfare.
Spartans were the opposites of the Athenians, so they believed that warfare was the only solution, and their society was solely based on militarism and their entire government treasury was used for war expenditures.
Sparta conquered peaceful Athens, but eventually the Spartans were annihilated in their wars of aggression, and nothing remains of their warlike civilization, but the memories of their warmongering linger in history.
The United States was born on the ideals of Athenian democracy, but the Spartan warmongering has taken control in DC and treasury used for war expenditures.
(Jay Randal, political activist and writer in Georgia, USA.)
April 10th, 2007 at 12:26 pmComment by Jay Randal — April 10, 2007 @ 12:26 pm
But without Sparta, Athens would not have survived the Greco-Persian War (see:Battle of Thermopylae and Battle of Plataea).
You must have both.
April 10th, 2007 at 12:33 pmhacker bob > lol I am not surprised you bring up Thermopylae and the story of 300 Spartans fighting to the death against thousands of Persians. GOPers love that story, but remember all 300 Spartans were slain. Sparta died as a civilization because they were all killed in the end.
April 10th, 2007 at 12:40 pmLarry from C, Im sure you know this but it´s worth repeating.
Venezuela gives US cheap oil deal
Talk about a class slap!!
April 10th, 2007 at 12:44 pmA woman who knew all Dante once, now bears children to a dunce.
April 10th, 2007 at 1:45 pmComment by Jay Randal — April 10, 2007 @ 12:40 pm
And Athens (and the democracy, eventually the Republic) survived because of the sacrifice of the Spartans.
The reason it stands out to me is not because of a GOP stance or as an anti-Persian stance. It is because Thermopylae is a classic study of a small force holding back a larger force through superior planning. Tactics 101
April 10th, 2007 at 2:10 pm“We are on a collision course with Chávez over oil,†said Michael J. Economides, an oil consultant in Houston. “Chávez poses a much bigger threat to America’s energy security than Saddam Hussein ever did.â€
Comment by Larry from C #5
…and do you want to know something Larry?
…I hope Chavez is one of the catalysts that sees to it that the criminal Bushites…
…and right wing fascist regimes around the world…
…are disgraced, and DESTROYED…
…”conservatism” should be synonymous with Naziism…
…and ALL right wingers looked upon as economic and militaristic terrorists…
…Chavez (and all of the left leaning INDIGENOUS governments throughout SA)…
…have EVERY right to foment a BACKLASH against the yanqui gringoes…
…who have pilfered and economically RAPED those countries’ natural resources…
…pitting the wealthy against the poor in order to oppress the poor…
…for hundreds of years…
…GO Hugo, and show them NO MERCY!
April 10th, 2007 at 3:24 pmBob do you know anything about the actual battle of Thermopylae other than the cartoon version presented in the movie 300? Thermopylae was not about planning or tactics from the Spartan side. Thermopylae is probably the most classic example of using terrain to hold off a superior enemy. The Spartan Phalanx and their Greek allies were able to fill the gap between the steep sided right flank and the ocean they did not need a whole lot of room to maneuver while on the defensive with Thoth flanks anchored by terrain. The Persians prior to the flanking move, despite the size of their army, were never able to bring any more men to the fight than the Greeks had on their side of the line. This was all due to terrain and getting to that piece of terrain before the Persians. Once they occupied that particular pass they were able to accomplish their goal of holding up the Persian advance. They never had a chance to defeat the Persians outright. However I’ll bet they did think they could defeat the Persians mentally which they did. If there is any lesson on planning in this particular fight, it is the failed logistics on the Persian side of the line. If the army was as large as some historians put it (500,000 – 10,000,000 when taking all elements into account), it was much to large to keep supplied in the field. Persia was always destined to lose this war because of the unsustainability of keeping that large army in the field.
So you see Thermopylae is a study in the use of terrain, Much Like Gettysburg and Waterloo as well as Kaserine Pass and Dien Bin Phu (poor use of terrain)
Also Sparta did not die out because of Thermopylae or Plataea (sp?) Sparta dies out because it was not equipped to deal with the changing world around them. Sparta was only able to deal with the world at war and the use of force. Combine that with their small size as a country and their relative lack of commerce and they were never going to make a go of it as a power for very long.
By the way there were far more than 300 Spartans there. There were several thousand other Greeks along with a couple/few thousand conscripts the Spartans brought with them in addition to the several thousand Spartan slaves who fought and died beside their masters. When it came time for the last stand the other Greeks were released and went back to their home cities
April 10th, 2007 at 3:29 pmI want what Laura’s having… she always looks so stoned like she’s smoked the most giggly happy weed.
April 10th, 2007 at 4:10 pmComment by Mark — April 10, 2007 @ 3:29 pm
Mark,
You are accurate in you assessment of Thermopylae and how the battle (historically) went down. Knowing and using terrain is part of tactical planning. It is pretty much “shaping the battlespace”. When you have a smaller force you have to use things like terrain as strategic assets in your planning. The Spartans did not “accidentally” fight at the pass at Thermopylae. Those chose that as the place to make the stand. That is why they also left a contingent of Phocians on the pass that went around the other side of the mountain.
After the Persians suffered 2 days of losses at Thermopylae, Xerxes (sp?), the Persian ruler, had found the second pass by a Greek traitor. After he launching a large force down the second pass, the Phocians feeling they were out numbered and doomed, returned to their home to defend them. This allowed the Persian force to pass almost unopposed and close with the Spartan on two fronts. This division of the Spartan (and 1000 Greeks/Thespians that remained) resulted in the phalanx failing and forced the Spartans to fight man on man. They were overwhelmed by the shear numbers. As a side, it is said that once the Spartan King, Leonidas, fell in battle his men fought back no less than 5 attempts by the Persians to recover the body. Xerxes wanted his head as a trophy and the Spartans could not allow that to happen while they still drew breath.
At the same time the logistics of the Persian force were over extended. Again, the result of planning. Poor planning. Never move the teeth of the army farther than the tail can support it, as it were.
Oh. Let’s not forget the damage done to the Persian navy and supply ships at Artemision.
Another interesting side note about the battle. It was the first semblance of a “Unified Greece” forming. Up until this point, Greece was functioning as independent City-States. This was the first time they fought as Greeks instead of Athenians, Thespians, Spartans, etc.
So, did I get it right?
As for the reason Sparta fell, that was not me that said it was because the Spartans fell at Thermopylae. I agree with you that they died out because they could not handle the changes. All I said was that in a society like ancient Greece, or the modern US, you need both Athens and Sparta. Diplomats and Military Force.
BTW, I haven’t seen the movie “300â€. Ya’ see, there are these things called books. I am rather fond of them.
April 10th, 2007 at 9:46 pmAs for the reason Sparta fell, that was not me that said it was because the Spartans fell at Thermopylae. I agree with you that they died out because they could not handle the changes. All I said was that in a society like ancient Greece, or the modern US, you need both Athens and Sparta. Diplomats and Military Force.
BTW, I haven’t seen the movie “300â€. Ya’ see, there are these things called books. I am rather fond of them.
Comment by hacker bob — April 10, 2007 @ 9:46 pm
The problem is that people like you think that your dedicate *warrior* classes are required. You might want to review your history more carefully, because in the subsequent attack from Persia that occurred, it was the bravery of the *athenians* amateur soldiers that fought to protect their homeland that defeated the Persians. The *soldiers* from Sparta acted like weiners and cowards in comparison.
Your false premise (as is always the case) is that ordinary men and women won’t fight to protect themselves. Iraq disproves this theory, as did Athens. The case for the *professional* military is tenuous as best. But it makes great propaganda for wide eyed soldiers like yourself that don’t know that Spartans were mostly gay in their lifestyles and not exactly who one would think CONS wished to emulate.
April 10th, 2007 at 10:03 pmBTW, I haven’t seen the movie “300â€. Ya’ see, there are these things called books. I am rather fond of them.Comment by hacker bob — April 10, 2007 @ 9:46 pm
Then read sometime about how the Spartans survived on the back of slavery (the Helots), and never worked for themselves thanks to their enslaved fellow greeks. Also read about how that *freedom* they fought for only accounted for their tribe, and not the enslaved greeks of their empire. Also read about how their entire history was filled with vile acts of brutality, dishonesty, treachery and cowardice.
It’s easy to see how they are such a role model for Republicans.
April 10th, 2007 at 10:06 pmOh and Bob. The reason the Spartans finally fell, is they attacked a neighboring city state, and effectively *trained* their military how to fight back to the point where they finally lost. Sound anything like what’s happening in Iraq?
Rome fell from the same situation. They lost their competitive military and tactical edge to an enemy that figured out how to make them bleed.
There’s an old expression you should really remember when you think about “empire”, son. “Those that live by the sword, die by the sword”.
April 10th, 2007 at 10:11 pmVVGFU,
We were talking about a single battle, not ancient Greek society as a whole. I also never said that ordinary men and women would not fight to protect themselves. Again, we are talking about a single battle.
Are you talking about the brave Athenians that were evacuated from their city before the Persian invasion of Athens? I believe the only ones that remained behind because they refused to leave the temples. They were subsequently killed by Xerxes when he burned Athens.
Read about the straight of strait of Salamine, where half the Persian fleet was sank. Then read about the Battle of Plataea where a combined Greek force defeated the Persians.
It was not the Athenian citizen acting in the role of citizen that defeated the Persians. It was a combined force of Greeks that were acting as a military that defeated the Persians. No single city-state could do it alone.
Yes, we have all read how conquering forces used the conquered as slaves. That was extremely popular back then. Greeks/Spartans were not the only ones to do it. At that time it was a common military practice.
Pederasty and homosexuality were also common occurrences throughout ancient Greece, not just Sparta.
And the chief cause for the fall of Sparta seems to be more of a case of apathy and isolationism on behalf of the Spartans more than anything. The death nail would seem more to be their refusal to join the League of Greeks. This eventually led to Athens, Corinth, Argos, and Thebes (backed by the Persians) forming an alliance against Sparta thus weakening it. Without their alliances, they lost strength. Again, an illustration of the need for smart diplomats and not just a military force.
No military force is unbeatable. I never claimed that. You have to know how to make a force bleed, and it is usually a slow bleed that kills the fastest. But diplomacy alone does not always work. Diplomacy should always be the first course, but sometimes you have to take the plow share and turn it into a sword.
If you do not agree with my opinion that both diplomats and a military force are important to maintain a society, fine. Sparta died by it’s refusal to be diplomatic. Athens would not have survived if it was not for a (pan-Greek) military.
April 10th, 2007 at 11:35 pmWe were talking about a single battle, not ancient Greek society as a whole. I also never said that ordinary men and women would not fight to protect themselves. Again, we are talking about a single battle. Comment by hacker bob — April 10, 2007 @ 11:35 pm
How is knowing that a particular battle is worth leaving the same as fighting to protect oneself? That’s a rather illogical leap.
Are you talking about the brave Athenians that were evacuated from their city before the Persian invasion of Athens? I believe the only ones that remained behind because they refused to leave the temples. They were subsequently killed by Xerxes when he burned Athens. Comment by hacker bob — April 10, 2007 @ 11:35 pm
I’m talking about ALL of the athenians that fought the armies of Xerces. They decided to abandon the city to avoid high civilian casualties, yet when it came time to engage the enemy as a coalition, it was these same athenians that stood their ground, while the Spartans didn’t care because it wasn’t their land.
Read about the straight of strait of Salamine, where half the Persian fleet was sank. Then read about the Battle of Plataea where a combined Greek force defeated the Persians. Comment by hacker bob — April 10, 2007 @ 11:35 pm
Nice of you to lecture me about what I should read, but so far you’re the one demonstrating an ignorance of the period? Sank by whom? The athenians.
It was not the Athenian citizen acting in the role of citizen that defeated the Persians. It was a combined force of Greeks that were acting as a military that defeated the Persians. No single city-state could do it alone. Comment by hacker bob — April 10, 2007 @ 11:35 pm
Yet it is the Athenians that are credited with sinking the Persian fleet, and standing their ground against the Persian troops.
Yes, we have all read how conquering forces used the conquered as slaves. That was extremely popular back then. Greeks/Spartans were not the only ones to do it. At that time it was a common military practice. Comment by hacker bob — April 10, 2007 @ 11:35 pm
Yes, but it was the Spartans that enslaved their fellow greeks. This was NOT a standard practice in the Greek world.
Pederasty and homosexuality were also common occurrences throughout ancient Greece, not just Sparta. Comment by hacker bob — April 10, 2007 @ 11:35 pm
Yes, but in Sparta it was the norm. It was in fact the standard relationship, with wives being purely for the purpose of procreation. Dig deeper son.
And the chief cause for the fall of Sparta seems to be more of a case of apathy and isolationism on behalf of the Spartans more than anything. The death nail would seem more to be their refusal to join the League of Greeks. Comment by hacker bob — April 10, 2007 @ 11:35 pm
Yes, the superiority, and go it alone attitude. Sound familiar with the anti-UN rhetoric from your fellow CONS?
This eventually led to Athens, Corinth, Argos, and Thebes (backed by the Persians) forming an alliance against Sparta thus weakening it. Comment by hacker bob — April 10, 2007 @ 11:35 pm
Are you referring to the Peloponnesian War? Because it was Sparta that received aid from Persia, and sold out their fellow Greeks. The heroes you idolize, are the ones that went to Persia for help. Here’s a little guide to help correct your ignorance.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peloponnesian_War
Without their alliances, they lost strength. Again, an illustration of the need for smart diplomats and not just a military force. Comment by hacker bob — April 10, 2007 @ 11:35 pm
You mean
No military force is unbeatable. I never claimed that. You have to know how to make a force bleed, and it is usually a slow bleed that kills the fastest. But diplomacy alone does not always work. Diplomacy should always be the first course, but sometimes you have to take the plow share and turn it into a sword. Comment by hacker bob — April 10, 2007 @ 11:35 pm
The problem is that idolizing a society that fixated on war is the wrong message. The Athenians are a better model for the US. We aren’t a militaristic society, and we aren’t a dictatorship, as sparta was. So by only understanding why the athens empire grew, and avoiding the failures that made them collapse. Like the go it alone and attitude and screw our allies attitude that this administration has exhibited.
If you do not agree with my opinion that both diplomats and a military force are important to maintain a society, fine. Sparta died by it’s refusal to be diplomatic. Athens would not have survived if it was not for a (pan-Greek) military. Comment by hacker bob — April 10, 2007 @ 11:35 pm
Greece survived because it first allied with, defended, but eventually it usurped and effectively took over much of Greece. For a while this worked, but it also because the source of its failure over time. That’s also why it lost its empire, because it took those countries for granted, and basically screwed them. This is by the way a similar tract that Sparta took – they also fell because they screwed their ‘allies’. You know, like our pissing at France, EU., etc., over the last 6 years.
Funny, but you CONS never get the importance of understanding what makes an empire succeed and fail.
April 11th, 2007 at 1:35 amIt is because Thermopylae is a classic study of a small force holding back a larger force through superior planning. Tactics 101
Comment by hacker bob
your talking about the insurgents right? or do you think theres more than 150,000 of them in iraq?
honestly, the entire analogy is completely and utterly retarded.
if america were anything like sparta it woudlnt have such a snivelling pussy
for a “king”
if anything, americans are the new persians… the mostly nationalist iraqi insurgents seem alot more willing to die for for thier country (or even to sacrifice ANYTHING for it) than Dick, Dumbya, or 90 percent of you armchair chickenhawks do. Sorry, but I dont consider throwing away other peoples lives and other peoples money to be “sacrifice”.
The battles of ancient times were a totally different thing altogether.. back then a king was supposed to be a man, to fight with his armies…..these days the world is run almost entirely by a bunch of snivelling little cowards who have done everything in thier possible to avoid personally experiencing the bloodshed they so ethusiastically promote. Furthermore, sniveling punks like Bush and Cheney have such a hegemonic web of support and are so insulated from reality that they can f#ck everything up and still not suffer the consequenes. Dumbya’s place in history is more akin to a kid playing a video game than anything resembling someone who fights and sacrifices for the things he beleives in..
April 11th, 2007 at 1:43 amVVGFU,
I’m talking about ALL of the athenians that fought the armies of Xerces. They decided to abandon the city to avoid high civilian casualties, yet when it came time to engage the enemy as a coalition, it was these same athenians that stood their ground, while the Spartans didn’t care because it wasn’t their land.
Yet it is the Athenians that are credited with sinking the Persian fleet, and standing their ground against the Persian troops.
Are you speaking of Plataea? Where Athens provided 8,000 soldiers, and Sparta (the unconcerned party) Provided 10,000? Or Salamis, where Athens provided half the ships for the battle? I never said that Sparta did it alone. Athens may have had the Naval force, and Sparta (leading the pan-Greek force) had the land forces.
Are you referring to the Peloponnesian War? Because it was Sparta that received aid from Persia, and sold out their fellow Greeks. The heroes you idolize, are the ones that went to Persia for help. Here’s a little guide to help correct your ignorance.
Actually, I was talking about the Corinthian War. Here’s a little guide to help your ignorance. And recognizing the contribution of Sparta is not “idolizing” them.
The problem is that idolizing a society that fixated on war is the wrong message. The Athenians are a better model for the US. We aren’t a militaristic society, and we aren’t a dictatorship, as sparta was. So by only understanding why the athens empire grew, and avoiding the failures that made them collapse. Like the go it alone and attitude and screw our allies attitude that this administration has exhibited.
Again, it is not about idolizing anyone. It is about recognizing the contributions to the greater good. As I stated before, diplomacy should ALWAYS be the first course. But diplomacy does not always work. Sometime you have to use military force. Without a military force to back it, diplomacy often fails. You end up selling yourself to appease your foes.
Greece survived because it first allied with, defended, but eventually it usurped and effectively took over much of Greece. .
I take it you mean “Athens survived because it first allied,[...]
Athens survived because it used both diplomacy and military force. Part of the diplomacy was aligning with Sparta during the Persian Wars. Athens was smart enough to know that they could not do it alone. They needed a force that was more experienced.
For a while this worked, but it also because the source of its failure over time. That’s also why it lost its empire, because it took those countries for granted, and basically screwed them. This is by the way a similar tract that Sparta took – they also fell because they screwed their ‘allies’.
Exactly.
Funny, but you CONS never get the importance of understanding what makes an empire succeed and fail.
Umm.. Actually, I don’t think we should be having imperial ambitions. I think we should be more focused on the US and our territories as they stand now. We need to clean up our own messes before we go creating more elsewhere.
April 11th, 2007 at 9:15 amComment by Chocolate Jesus — April 11, 2007 @ 1:43 am
Dude, I am not the one that said the US was becoming Sparta.
April 11th, 2007 at 10:30 am