Muslims believe U.S. seeks to undermine Islam.
By on Apr 24th, 2007 at 12:09 pm
Muslims believe U.S. seeks to undermine Islam.
“More than 70 percent of Egyptians, Pakistanis, Indonesians and Moroccans believe the United States is trying to weaken and divide the Islamic world, a poll released on Tuesday showed. The survey by WorldPublicOpinion.org also showed more than 40 percent thought that was the primary goal of the U.S.-led war on terrorism, while only 12 percent believed Washington’s aim was to protect the United States from attack.”
Full poll results HERE.
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Well the government of Israel desires that and Bush Regime tends to do whatever they desire in the Middle East region.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:12 pmI wonder why they think that.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:14 pmI wonder why they would think that?
“We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity” – Ann Coulter
April 24th, 2007 at 12:15 pmLISTEN,
Islam needs to reject martyrdom. We should not delude ourselves into thinking that the world can tolerate nuclear weapons, in the hands of people who actually think that they will go to paradise just for launching them.
This isn’t a whacko stance in Islam. THey are very clear about this. I know many moderates will attack me, but we must get Islamic moderates to speak out loudly against the doctrine of martyrdom. It is crucial.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:17 pmInteresting.
Yet, there is no question that that Islamic faith seeks to destroy all “infidels,” which includes any person who is not of Muslim faith.
Big difference between a “belief” which is not supported by action, and the jihadists’ fatalistic view of “the rest of the world.”
I ask you: Would you rather be a liberal in our free-thinking Western civilization, or could you could be a liberal in “their” culture before being beheaded for being gay, unmarried, not wearing headscarves, etc.?
Oh, you progressives!! Fight the good fight on behalf of the repressive culture and sharia laws of Islam!!! They are only “misunderstood” and need someone to hold their hand!…
April 24th, 2007 at 12:18 pmCrump…you need to change your pants now.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:20 pm#3,
An idiotic statement. Such misguided thinking while sticking your thumb in your mouth means you turn a blind eye toward the Islamic call to destroy all who are not of their faith. Your type of thinking would get you beheaded in their country, yet only gains a woeful shake of the head in ours. Count your blessings that you live in freedom and can post idiocy without fear of reprisal.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:20 pmYet, there is no question that that Islamic faith seeks to destroy all “infidels,†which includes any person who is not of Muslim faith.
Comment by JT — April 24, 2007 @ 12:18 pm
Thats a lie. I work with two Pakistanis and they say there is nothing in the Islam that encourages that position. Keep up.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:22 pmI know many moderates will attack me, but we must get Islamic moderates to speak out loudly against the doctrine of martyrdom. It is crucial.
Comment by Crump’s Brother
I am sure they will as soon as Christian moderates speak out against people like Robertson ( who calls for assasinations ), Bush ( who hides his Iraq crimes behind christianity ), Dobson, and many others.
Organized religion is one of the root problems of of the world today, whether Christian, Islam, etc, etc.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:25 pm#7 an idiotic statement. Such misguided thinking while sticking your thumb up your ass.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:25 pmwhen there’s groups out there mapping every mosque in the u.s., is it any wonder muslims believe the u.s. is out to destroy islam…?
Mapping Shari’a Project
i used to get cold chills when i read about white supremacy groups… this is worse, much worse… what makes it even worse than white supremacy is that it’s happening right out in the open… these people are budding terrorists, if they are not already…
And, yes, I DO take it personally
April 24th, 2007 at 12:25 pmThis crusade, this war on terrorism is going to take a while.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:27 pm– George W Bush, September 16, 2001
Yet, there is no question that that Islamic faith seeks to destroy all “infidels,†which includes any person who is not of Muslim faith.
Comment by JT — April 24, 2007 @ 12:18 pm
JT, this is a common misconception. Infidels, as they are defined in this context mean Muslims (and only Muslims) who have turned away from the teachings of the Koran.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:27 pmThat’s what happens when a Fanatical Christian leads the greatest (and secular) nation in the world.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:29 pmModerate Muslims should reject extremist actions on the basis of their faith.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:29 pmModerate Christians should reject extremist actions on the basis of their faith. Moderate Jews should reject extremist actions on the basis of their faith.
Muslims are correct. The libs will undermine Islam just like it is attempting to undermine Christianity. This is a solid post TP. Thank you for showing that Muslims like Christians are afraid of the Far left attempting to undermine world religions.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:33 pmJuan,
Believe me I’m on your side. If one wants to be a Muslim, fine. But they must reject martyrdom. It is a principle difference in the philosophies of the big religions.
Further, your Pakistani friends must not be reading the Koran.
Anyone who says that the doctrines of Islam have “nothing to do with terrorism” is just playing a game with words.
“The believers who stay home, apart from those that suffer from a grave impediment are not the equal of those who fight for the cause of God with their goods and their persons. God has given those that fight with their goods and their persons a higher rank than those that stay home. He that leaves his dwelling to fight for God and His apostle and is then taken by death, shall be rewarded by God. The unbelievers are your inveterate enemies.†(Koran 4:95-101)
I’m not sure what that says to you, but that is kinda whacko to me.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:34 pmRoger,
Do you promote martyrdom? I’m not anti-religion per se, but do think that moderates of all religions, must call an end to murder in the name of God. Agreed?
April 24th, 2007 at 12:35 pmPLC,
Well said!
April 24th, 2007 at 12:37 pmMuslims are correct. The libs will undermine Islam just like it is attempting to undermine Christianity. This is a solid post TP. Thank you for showing that Muslims like Christians are afraid of the Far left attempting to undermine world religions.
Comment by Roger_Roger — April 24, 2007 @ 12:33 pm
R2, I’m tempted to chalk up this statement to an attempt at comedy, but since, on balance your posts are heavily weighted to the “bizarre neocon fantasy” rather than the “jocular” I’m skeptical.
On the chance that you’re serious, can you point out where in the article it says that Muslims fear that their faith will be undermined by the “far left”?
The “far left”… where have I heard that ctachphrase before? Fluff O’Reilly much, R2?
April 24th, 2007 at 12:39 pmComment by Crump’s Brother — April 24, 2007 @ 12:34 pm
Please read my post #13.
“The unbelievers are your inveterate enemies.â€
Again, this refers to Muslims who have turned away from the teachings of the Koran, and are therefore no longer considered true Muslims. This DOES NOT refer to Christians, Jews, or any other non-Muslim religion.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:41 pmLooks like that plan of Bush’s back fired too. Now the Middle East are working together against a common enemy name George W. Bush. The Saudi King is talking with Iran. China and Japan are now working together.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:43 pmLooks like Bush has joined alot of strangers together as he as made the United States the outsider and Axis of Evil. With international news coverage I know the Middle East is talking about how our military lied about Pat Tillman and all the White House scandals. Yes and our lost DOJ office where the Attorney General lies under oath and is incompetant. But Gonzo’s sister Theresa is happy her brother keeps his job because as she is a drug dealer with a record as long as the State of California things might not be good if she lost her pass on being arrested. Since the Bush/Gonzales families are such good friends if wonder does Jebs daughter know Theresa Gonzales ? Now Jeb’s daughter is a drug addict and Theresa is a drug supplier oh well you never know.
I’m not sure what that says to you, but that is kinda whacko to me.
Comment by Crump’s Brother
Of course is wacko like all religions IMO. However, how many Christians do you see following the Bible by the letter? Just Daryll, cuz most of them have common sense. The same here. One thing is Muslim and another one is Jihadist which are religious extremists. And, just to close this post, no one has a more powerful martyrdom stance than the US. Throwing bombs for self-defence is probably one of the most pathetic, stupid ideas in World´s History.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:46 pmIt’s not the libs who are trying to undermine Islam, it’s the right wing fascists who are trying to undermine Islam as well as Christianity.
We are NOT SAFER thanks to Bush’s policies and this proves it.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:47 pmFurther, your Pakistani friends must not be reading the Koran.
Comment by Crump’s Brother —
Yeah, that must be it.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:48 pmJT, this is a common misconception. Infidels, as they are defined in this context mean Muslims (and only Muslims) who have turned away from the teachings of the Koran.
Comment by Lily — April 24, 2007 @ 12:27 pm
JT (justifibly timid) and roger rhetoric, why haven’t you responded to this?
April 24th, 2007 at 12:48 pmWhat is the poll about Muslims thinking about Israel?
April 24th, 2007 at 12:51 pmJuan,
Did you read the rest of what I said? I know a lot of self-professed “christians” who haven’t read the bible.
Did that quote from the Koran sit well with you?
April 24th, 2007 at 12:52 pmWhy don’t they ask if they want to stop radical Islam or destroy the religion? Most Americans don’t want to fallow Islam but also don’t want to stop anyone from practicing there religion. Unless it effects the general public. Take the cabby situation at the Minnesota air ports. If you don’t want to carry a fare you because you don’t want to carry something against your religion you move along. Your job isn’t to pass judgment, your job is to drive the person to ware ever they want. And if someone has been drinking that’s the best time for them to use a cab. Only liberals want to destroy religion.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:54 pmRoger, Do you promote martyrdom? I’m not anti-religion per se, but do think that moderates of all religions, must call an end to murder in the name of God. Agreed? Comment by Crump’s Brother — April 24, 2007 @ 12:35 pm
Do you promote martyrdom? Because when the military sends in men to do “suicide missions” (missions they believe they may not make it out of), this is martyrdom. And when they glorify their deaths (Tilman), how exactly is this different again?
And what about that Jesus character, what again did he do? Was that some sort of “suicide-mission” for his religion?
You really need to step back, and judge yourself with the same rules you judge others.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:57 pm#29…Simplistic thinking expressed in mountains of grammatical and spelling errors. You’d better go back to school.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:58 pmOnly liberals want to destroy religion.
Comment by Kevin — April 24, 2007 @ 12:54 pm
Ni I just want our money to say “In Allah we trust”.. Joking aside, I just want ALL religions out of Americas govt.
You can worship frogs for all I care, just keep it out of government.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:59 pmAnd if someone has been drinking that’s the best time for them to use a cab. Only liberals want to destroy religion. Comment by Kevin — April 24, 2007 @ 12:54 pm
Says the waco who wants to destroy Islam, why rationalizing the “why” he wants to destroy Islam!
BHAHAHA, st*pid, ignorant and hypocritical as usual Kevin, you never disappoint son!
Tell me Kevin, is this the same Liberals that believed, and founded a country on the principle of “freedom of (and from) religion”. You forget the founding fathers promoted and wrote about both principles. It’s you wacos that only want YOUR religion to be around, and can’t stand it when someone wants no religion. F*ck*ng m*r*n.
April 24th, 2007 at 12:59 pmIf you don’t want to carry a fare you because you don’t want to carry something against your religion you move along
Comment by KevintheTaxFreeDude — April 24, 2007 @ 12:54 pm
Am I the only one confused by this sentence?
Your job isn’t to pass judgment
really? I don’t recall you posting opposing the pharmacist who refused to dispense Plan B to a concerned wife, or the pharmacists who refused to dispense oral contraception to a college student.
Hyporcrite, much?
April 24th, 2007 at 1:00 pmWhat is the poll about Muslims thinking about Israel?
Comment by Happy Guy — April 24, 2007 @ 12:51 pm
Probably about the same as Israel thinks of Muslims. You’re not very bright are you. Lay off the meth, then happy will wear off, but maybe some of the st*pid will as well, son.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:00 pmDid that quote from the Koran sit well with you?
Comment by Crump’s Brother
I dont care. I ve read Asimov and other fictional books and I dont care about that either. You care too much about what says in religious books. You are like Muslim extremists with Salman Rushdie´s book. Jews say they are the chosen people. Thats fine with me, I couldnt care less about what they think their God told them. Christians say you have to follow Jesus. I wont, I just dont care about that either. I dont care about religion, anyone can believe and do whatever the hell they want as long there is respect. When the time comes that I see a scimitar waving Muslim coming after me, then I will care. Otherwise, I just dont care what says in a religious book.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:01 pmi guess we can chalk up “hearts and minds” as another win.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:02 pmLily
“Again, this refers to Muslims who have turned away from the teachings of the Koran, and are therefore no longer considered true Muslims. This DOES NOT refer to Christians, Jews, or any other non-Muslim religion.â€
After reading the Koran, I cannot find the part that excludes particular non-believers. I apologize if my reading is off. But I still believe I am right about the teachings of that book. I agree that fundamentalism must be tossed aside. But in particular the martyrdom doctrine of Islam must be reconciled.
The Koran seems to say something that can be construed as a prohibition against suicide “do not destroy yourselves†(4:29) But there are huge loopholes.
“Let those who would exchange the life of this world for the hereafter, fight for the cause of God; whoever fights for the cause of God whether he dies or triumphs, We shall richly reward him… The true believers fight for the cause of God, but the infidels fight for the devil. Fight then against the friends of Satan… Say: ‘Trifling are the pleasures of this life. The hereafter is better for those who would keep from evil…†(Koran 4:74-78)
When the above invitations to martyrdom are considered in light of the fact that Islam does not distinguish between religious and civil authority the twin terrors of Koranic literalism spring into view: an the level of the state, a Muslim aspiration for world domination is explicitly enjoined by God; on the level of the individual, the metaphysics of martyrdom provides a rationale for ultimate self sacrifice toward this end. We must combat this.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:03 pmOnly liberals want to destroy religion.
Comment by Kevin
Only religions that have thebood of innocents on their collective hands. Look closely, if your religion has killed or persecuted innocents, your religion is not truely of the God it professes to be.
That is historically true of Islam, Christianity, hinduism, and most of the others.
Look at the Inquisitions of Christianity and tell me Christianity has it’s hands clean of the blood of innocents.
Religion and religios intollerance is one of the roots of todays world’s problems
April 24th, 2007 at 1:04 pmWell thats Bush sussed then – he can be read like a book
April 24th, 2007 at 1:05 pmAfter reading the Koran, I cannot find the part that excludes particular non-believers. I apologize if my reading is off. But I still believe I am right about the teachings of that book. I agree that fundamentalism must be tossed aside. But in particular the martyrdom doctrine of Islam must be reconciled. Comment by Crump’s Brother — April 24, 2007 @ 1:03 pm
Well, maybe it’s because you’re borderline r*t*rded. Jews and Christians are referred to “Children of the Scriptures” along with Muslims. When the discussion of infidels occurs, they are described as those that are not “Children of the Scriptures”.
I know idiots like you need the words “Christian and Jew” reinforced in every sentence before you can “grasp” a concept or an association. Maybe this kind of broken brain is why so few of you ever make any real accomplishments to society – dum bass.
And why are you against martyrdom? Without it Christianity would never have taken over Rome, right son?
April 24th, 2007 at 1:08 pmJuan,
Maybe I missed your gripe then. You seemed upset that I said we need to speak out against the Muslim doctrine of Martyrdom. I feel that it is a real issue that threatens world peace.
I understand that you don’t care about religion. I don’t either in as much that it creates real world problems that must be addressed. There is a terrible amount of violence that is being justified through martyrdom. I think we need to address that and quit being kinda touchy feely towards Islam because we are afraid of being labeled intolerant. If people want to call me intolerant because I call for a rejection of martyrdom, then so be it.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:10 pmCrump’s Brother, I’m not trying to be disrespectful, but thry talking to a Koran scholar.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:11 pmCrump’s Brother, The bible is filled with murder, mayhem, rape, incest, slavery, and all sorts of hate for other religions as well. How exactly do you think ALL of those pagan religions of Europe disappeared – by magic?
Christianity actually did to europe and the americas, what you say Islam wants to do – eradicate the other religions.
Just to be clear, I’m not for any belief that ANY religion has a right to tell others what to say or do – but that’s what *ssh*les like you do, every time you spout off on gay rights, or abortion. At that moment, you’re no different than the radical islamists, and I bet if told by your leaders to do so, you’d be just as violent. You know, like the good anti-abortionists that have killed and wounded so many health professionals…
April 24th, 2007 at 1:11 pman the level of the state, a Muslim aspiration for world domination is explicitly enjoined by God; on the level of the individual, the metaphysics of martyrdom provides a rationale for ultimate self sacrifice toward this end. We must combat this.
Comment by Crump’s Brother
Do you know whats the Monroe Doctrine or Destiny Manifest? Yeah, since the beginning of the US, Franklin, Quincy Adams and Jefferson already sought to take over the rest of America. Simon Bolivar already knew that. There are 730+ foreign military bases all over the world run by US personnel. Did you know this?
So, which one wants to take over the world: US or Muslims?
April 24th, 2007 at 1:12 pmValiant,
If want to get into a theological discussion of the absurdity of religion on its face, I’m willing to do that. But don’t drop to personal attacks. I’m actually trying to discuss an issue here. You want to call me an idiot.
I personally reject all monotheism. That’s my personal view.
I find it sad that so many “tolerant liberlas” on this site, stoop to personal attacks. If you don’t like waht I have to say, debate me, or ignore me. But I would ask that you not name call. I would hope that would be beneath the discourse here.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:13 pmBut I still believe I am right about the teachings of that book.
Unless you have taken a Religious Studies course, a Comparative Religion course, or are Muslim yourself I don’t think you have any business saying whether or not the Koran teaches this or that.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:16 pmThe Bush administration has managed to turn the Iraq occupation into a religious struggle against Muslims.
Perhaps they thought an illegal invasion wasn’t ambitious enough, and they are going for something really grand this time.
Like pissing off 1.3 billion people who now perceive the US a religious threat.
Heckuvajob, Georgie!
April 24th, 2007 at 1:16 pmJuan,
I am not trying to argue about world domination. However, I agree with you that we have a imperialist nature which needs to be curtailed. WE AGREE!!!
That does not however us turning a blind eye to real problem of Islamic martyrdom.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:16 pmWell I can certainly understand their worry. To the neocons, “freedom of religion” means you are free to practice any form of Christianity or Judaism, as long as Pat Robertson approves of the denomination, with Catholocism as the one exception.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:17 pmCrump´s Brother:
I have to go, but I think it is hypocrite to judge other religions while Christianity put a dark shroud of ignorance and terror over the “West civilization” 10 centuries. I would encourage you to go to a Mosque and ask the religious leader all your questions. I would like to hear what he said, seriously.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:19 pmPoint of parliamentary procedure, but isn’t the world of Islam already divided? Sunni, Shia? Or am I missing something?
(On a related note, aren’t most religions divided, most having no problem casting aspersions upon the other sects within their religion??)
April 24th, 2007 at 1:20 pmThat does not however us turning a blind eye to real problem of Islamic martyrdom.
Comment by Crump’s Brother
I agree. Let Muslims deal with that problem.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:20 pmLily,
the problem isn’t the scholars. The problem is that many of the readers of that book, take it to mean that paradise awaits them if they become a martyr. They may be wrong. What I’m saying is, we need to push the Koran Scholars, and the other moderate leaders of that faith to work hard to disavow this teaching, or to re-educate the masses that this behavior isn’t acceptable.
In our country, the vast majority of Christian leaders denounce the bombing of abortion clinics, and denounced the Oklahoma City Bombing. And I’m aware that many Mulsims were behind us after 9-11. But those people must help themselves by rejecting this portion of their holy book. Just as many western religions have rejected slave holding, and stoning of children. (Which is condoned in the Bible.)
April 24th, 2007 at 1:21 pmTrekkie,
Would you say the same to a church goer in our country that hasn’t taken a class?
April 24th, 2007 at 1:22 pmJuan C,
don’t insult Simon Bolivar. Typical idiot. Just like Hugo Chavez you want to distort Bolivar’s view of the world in order to justify your communism.
Furthermore, we might have bases around the world….
1)99.9% of our military bases around the world are there with the legitimate permission of the government of that country.
2)We do not use these bases to take over the country in which they are based.
3)If the USA had imperialistic nature, we would have taken over the world already.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:23 pmValiant,
If want to get into a theological discussion of the absurdity of religion on its face, I’m willing to do that. But don’t drop to personal attacks. I’m actually trying to discuss an issue here. You want to call me an idiot.
I personally reject all monotheism. That’s my personal view.
I find it sad that so many “tolerant liberlas†on this site, stoop to personal attacks. If you don’t like waht I have to say, debate me, or ignore me. But I would ask that you not name call. I would hope that would be beneath the discourse here.
Comment by Crump’s Brother — April 24, 2007 @ 1:13 pm
I totally agree with Crump on this point. He’s not posting assinine comments like Jake and R_R do. Debate him, disagree with him. His beliefs are just as valid as ours.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:23 pmThat does not however us turning a blind eye to real problem of Islamic martyrdom.
Comment by Crump’s Brother
I agree. Let Muslims deal with that problem.
Comment by Juan C — April 24, 2007 @ 1:20 pm
I would love for us to do that, but their martyrdom. Has affected us, therefore they have made it our problem.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:23 pmJuan, I am not trying to argue about world domination. However, I agree with you that we have a imperialist nature which needs to be curtailed. WE AGREE!!!
That does not however us turning a blind eye to real problem of Islamic martyrdom.
Comment by Crump’s Brother — April 24, 2007 @ 1:16 pm
All you’re saying is that you dislike their tool of imperialism (martyrdom), from ours (wholesale slaughter using military forces). Why is that exactly again? Is this an Israeli thing for you? Because the dead Lebanese and Palestinians in particular might disagree with your perspective…
April 24th, 2007 at 1:24 pmI would also urge people here to go find out what the average level of education is in most Muslim nations. I would also go read up how the government of these nations love, adore blaming internal problems, poverty, etc etc on the western world, mainly Israel and the United States.
Gregor Samsa, if you honestly believe that it is only now that many Muslims see the USA as a religious enemy, you have been sleeping for decades.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:25 pmTrekkie,
Is one not capable of learning through their own reading? They must have a religious teacher give them a biased slant in order to get it right?
April 24th, 2007 at 1:25 pmI would love for us to do that, but their martyrdom. Has affected us, therefore they have made it our problem. Comment by Valiantthehater — April 24, 2007 @ 1:23 pm
And our constant meddling in their countries, and one sided support of Israel without taking care of the Palestinians unfortunately made us their problem.
You really don’t get causal circumstances, do you dum bass?
We all have to figure out how to live together, but as long as jake*sses like you point your finger at others, you’ll never notice your thumb is pointing back at YOU!
April 24th, 2007 at 1:25 pmValiant,
I am not in favor of this war! I never have been. I’m on your side. We need to curtail our military industrial complex so that we can get on with the business of peace.
I am a pacifist. I abhor violence of any kind. When did I justify American imperialism?
April 24th, 2007 at 1:27 pmValiant,
do you know about when the Palestenians started killing Israelis? do you?
April 24th, 2007 at 1:27 pmTrekkie,
Is one not capable of learning through their own reading? They must have a religious teacher give them a biased slant in order to get it right?
Comment by Crump’s Brother — April 24, 2007 @ 1:25 pm
Crump, I would say to your comment that why then do we have Math teachers, history teachers, English teachers, etc, etc. Can we all not learn by our own reading? Obviously there are people that spend more time on a subject and teach it. The same thing goes with religion.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:29 pmValiant,
Please… with the insults. I have debated Jake on here into the ground on here before. I am not for war. I thought that think this war is the worse idea in our countries history. I hope you can understand this, and stop with the personal attacks.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:30 pmValiant,
Please, do you honestly believe that the Muslim nations problem is do to the USA meddling there and our support for Israel?
Just like the problem in Iraq goes centuries back, so does the problem in the Middle East and it has do to little with us meddling.
Sunnis and Shiites have been around for centuries long before the USA was bornn and guess what? they were fighting against each other.
If you look at the current situation in the middle east you will find that what you have is waring tribes that have been at war for centuries, one side always blaming the other and taking things to the extreme.
and our one sided support for Israel is well deserved since in more than one occassion all of the Muslim nations united to massacre all the Jews in Israel. Do tell me, where we supporting Israel in 1948 when all the Muslim nations attacked it and promised to do the surviving Jews from the Nazi Holocoust what Hitler couldn’t do?
I take it your next step will be to deny the Holocoust, right?
April 24th, 2007 at 1:33 pmValiantthehater,
One does need someone to teach to read!!!
But I reject the idea after I learn to read, that someone teach me to interpret what I’m reading. I will grant you however, that in order to come into a good understand of complex religious texts, one should engage others who have read the text as well. To see what other kinds of interpretations exist. Thos kinds of thinga can be helpful. I hope that clears it up.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:34 pmCrump. I apologize. I thought you were claiming that all Muslims believe anyone who is not a Muslim should be killed. As far as martyrdom is concerned, I do believe moderate Muslims are opposed to it. However, the U.S. occupation is turning more and more moderates into extremeists.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:34 pmCrump,
Valiant doesn’t do too much good for your side of the argument in Iraq. He is a very hateful individual and just loves throwing insults. He is not here to change anyone’s mind, he is here to insult and try to feel superior. I would advice you to not waste your time with him.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:35 pmreally? I don’t recall you posting opposing the pharmacist who refused to dispense Plan B to a concerned wife, or the pharmacists who refused to dispense oral contraception to a college student.
Hyporcrite, much?
Comment by DRxJ — April 24, 2007 @ 1:00 pm
Never said the pharmacists were right in that situation. If you are hired to provide a service or product you provide it. If you can’t for religious reasons, you find another job. That’s what’s called personal reasonability.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:35 pmGregor Samsa, if you honestly believe that it is only now that many Muslims see the USA as a religious enemy, you have been sleeping for decades.
Comment by Valiantthehater — April 24, 2007 @ 1:25 pm
Muslim nations have been at odds with the US mainly due to American foreign policy towards the Middle East, and the unconditional support for Israel. That has always been the peeve in Middle Eastern nations.
Actions in the US were not perceived as having the religious goal of undermining Islam itself. Individual nations yes. Not an entire religion. They are perceived that way now.
That you think it is doesn’t make it so.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:35 pmI wish people would cut the “Islamofascist” crap. It’s really no different than saying liberalism is the Great Satan. Clearly there are few here who have even met a Muslim. Even in the Islamic State of Iran it isn’t ruled by 8th century Shari’a law. The literalists are no different than the Christian literalists and they act out of fear that their culture and their lands are being taken.
I highly recommend the writing of Karen Armstrong for anyone who wants to get a fix on Islam. And remember that every nation under threat of attack and subjugation moves to an extreme authoritarian model. It was no surprise that Ahmadinejad defeated the moderate candidate after Bush made his “Axis of Evil” comment.
I’d also check out the writing of Doug Saunders who points out that Muslim are quite capable of embracing liberal democracy when they’re governments aren’t being threatened, bombed, or bribed by the West. And the sticking point for most Muslim moralists is the unresolved Palestinian Question: a 40 year occupation is a disgrace.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:36 pmApparently I need someone to teach me to type as well. :)
April 24th, 2007 at 1:36 pmCrump,
don’t colleges professors interpret for us what we read? we see this all the time in English courses that teach Shakespare, right? we see this all the time in history courses, right? why not religion then?
why do you think we take exams in college and why these are graded from the point of view of the professor? we are graded on his interpretation of whatever subject he is teaching, right?
April 24th, 2007 at 1:38 pmValianttheHater:
These are words of Simón BolÃvar: (I think you know Spanish)
“Los Estados Unidos parecen destinados por la Providencia para plagar América de miserias en nombre de la libertad”
which means: “The US seem to be destined by the Providence to plague with miseries America in the name of freedom”
Change America with Middle East and 200 years later the same thing applies.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:39 pmWould you say the same to a church goer in our country that hasn’t taken a class?
Apparently, you didn’t read my entire comment. I mentioned either taking a class or being a member of the faith. That means your question is irrelevant and immaterial to the matter at hand.
Next!
April 24th, 2007 at 1:39 pmDavid,
I agree with you on all your comments. The literalists are the problem. IN EVERY RELIGION. And maybe the fact that I have spent little time in “Muslim” countries leads me to some ignorance here, but I don’t hear a world wide cry by Muslims, denouncing martyrdom. I may be wrong about that, and I honestly hope that I am.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:40 pmThat you think it is doesn’t make it so.
Comment by Gregor Samsa — April 24, 2007 @ 1:35 pm
oh please, weak argument Gregor. let me throw it back at you……Just because you don’t think so it doesn’t make it so.
c’mon guy.
Muslim nations have been at odds with nations that are not Muslim for centuries!
please do tell what did Spain do in order to be conquered for 400 years by Muslims? what have none Muslim nations do through out history to be conquered by Muslims?
April 24th, 2007 at 1:42 pmValiantthehater,
Agreed. However, I may have to write down the answer that professor is asking for, but does not mean I must agree with their interpretation.
I had a great ‘right-wing’ professor of history. He wrote a book as answer to Zinn’s “people’s history”. My professors was called a “patriot’s history” We disagreed constantly. But he was my favorite prof I ever had. I knew what he expected on his exams. And he respected the fact that I took in what he was saying, but then did some thinking on my own. Your education is what you make of it. Not entirely what is given.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:43 pmJuan C,
can you please cite Simon Bolivar’s word. I do know that Bolivar was smart enough and a great visionary that he forsaw the need for Latin America to unite and create a country like the USA in South America. Unfortunately, the leftist in America during Bolivar’s time were too greedy and too stupid to see that bolivar was right.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:45 pmTrekkie,
I added to my statement later. Do you really think that one must fall under any of your criteria in order to do a critical reading of a text?
So in order to have a discussion about these issues, one have taken a class, or be a muslim? Sorry, but I reject that.
Just because I’m not a doctor, doesn’t mean I can’t discuss the late-term abortion ban does it?
April 24th, 2007 at 1:46 pmValiantthehater, Gregor Samsa is absolutely right when he says, “Muslim nations have been at odds with the US mainly due to American foreign policy towards the Middle East, and the unconditional support for Israel. That has always been the peeve in Middle Eastern nations.” Study the hustory a little more.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:49 pmAnd by the way, how do you feel about the wall Israel is building, with financial support from the U.S?
Juan C,
here is a paragraph from where you took the quote. As you can see Bolivar also bashed the new countries created in the Americas. he wasn’t just bashing the USA. try to be honest guy and I will take you a lot more serious.
“No sé que decir a Vd. sobre esta idea, que encierra en sà mil inconvenientes. Vd. debe conocer que, por mi parte, no habrÃa ninguno, determinado como estoy a dejar el mando en este próximo congreso, mas ¿quién podrá mitigar la ambición de nuestros jefes y el temor de la desigualdad en el bajo pueblo? ¿No cree Vd. que la Inglaterra sentirÃa celos por la elección que se hiciera en un Borbón? ¿Cuánto no se opondrÃan todos los nuevos estados americanos, y los Estados Unidos que parecen destinados por la Providencia para plagar la América de miserias a nombre de la Libertad? Me parece que ya veo una conjuración general contra esta pobre Colombia, ya demasiado envidiada de cuantas repúblicas tiene la América. Todas las prensas se pondrÃan en movimiento llamando a una nueva cruzada contra los cómplices de traición a la libertad, de adictos a los Borbones y de violadores del sistema americano. Por el Sur encenderÃan los peruanos la llama de la discordia; por el Istmo los de Guatemala y Méjico, y por las Antillas los americanos y los liberales de todas partes. No se quedarÃa Santo Domingo en inacción y llamarÃa a sus hermanos para hacer causa común contra un prÃncipe de Francia. Todos se convertirÃan en enemigos sin que la Europa hiciera nada por sostenernos, porque no merece el Nuevo Mundo los gastos de una Santa Alianza; a lo menos, tenemos motivo para juzgar asÃ, por la indiferencia con que se nos ha visto emprender y luchar por la emancipación de la mitad del mundo, que bien pronto será la fuente más productiva de las prosperidades europeas.”
http://www.simon-bolivar.org/bolivar/catta_a_campbell.html
April 24th, 2007 at 1:49 pmLily,
spot on!!
April 24th, 2007 at 1:50 pmGregor, get ready for anti-semitic accusations. I recently read of a right-wing talking point that suggests any liberal comment comdemning Israel’s actions should automatically be labelled anti-semitic.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:51 pmMuslim nations have been at odds with nations that are not Muslim for centuries!
Comment by Valiantthehater — April 24, 2007 @ 1:42 pm
Duh.
We are not talking about other nations, or about what happened in Europe 600 years ago. We are talking about the US now, and how its current actions are perceived in the Muslim world.
please do tell what did Spain do in order to be conquered for 400 years by Muslims? what have none Muslim nations do through out history to be conquered by Muslims?
First of all, Spain didn’t exist 1300 years ago. What is nowadays Spain was then a collection of independent kingdoms, even with their own language -many of which are still spoken today.
Second, the American occupation of Iraq cannot be justified by what the Caliphs did in Spain centuries ago.
From WWI on, it is the Europeans who have conquered Muslims nations, split them into more manageable pieces, and exploit their natural resources.
That conquest and occupation was not seen as being religious in nature. Even Bin Laden’s complaints about the US presence in Saudi Arabia (even with their religious tone) had more to do with feeling occupied than with the US trying to undermine Islam itself.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:53 pmLily,
the wall is necessary! in the neighborhoods that the wall has seperated Palestine from Israel terrorist attacks from Palestine are pretty much non existant.
do you think it s ok for Palestinians to indiscrimintaly kill Israeli men, women and children?
sorry, Gregor is 100% wrong in his statement. Muslim nations have hated Israel since the second they heard the United Nation was going to give Israelis back their land in the 1940s. Do tell, what had Israel done to the Muslim nations in 1948? Muslim nations united and tried to massacre all Jews in Israel and they tried to conquer this land. I mean you do believe int eh United Nations, right? The United Nations created Israel and placed it where it is today, right? I mean you leftist always talk about international law, why don’t you agree with this international law?
April 24th, 2007 at 1:54 pmWell, d’oh! Of course we seek to undermine islam. I mean WTF?
–
April 24th, 2007 at 1:57 pmmatthews.frank@gmail.com
As you can see Bolivar also bashed the new countries created in the Americas. he wasn’t just bashing the USA. try to be honest guy and I will take you a lot more serious.
Comment by Valiantthehater — April 24, 2007 @ 1:49 pm
What a weak cop-out.
You are essentially agreeing with Juan C that Bolivar did, indeed, bash the US even as you try to disagree.
That Bolivar also managed to have harsh words for other countries takes nothing away from Juan C’s argument that Bolivar saw the US as “destined by Providence to plague the Americas with misery in the name of freedom”. Absolutely nothing.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:57 pmFrom WWI on, it is the Europeans who have conquered Muslims nations, split them into more manageable pieces, and exploit their natural resources.
Comment by Gregor Samsa — April 24, 2007 @ 1:53 pm
so why are you blaminig the USA for the sins of Europeans? do tell, how many Muslim nations has the USA conquered and split? do tell.
and no duh wasn’t around 1300 years ago, but the kingdoms did unite and that is how they defeated the Moros in Spain.
the fact is that Muslims have hated anyone that is not a Muslim for centuries, whether it was un Catalan, an Italian, a Greek, an Englishman, an American.
this is just an excuse from the Muslims to justify their hate towards the western world.
April 24th, 2007 at 1:58 pmLily,
don’t stereotype people. I believe that Israel has done horrific things, they have had terrorist groups as evil as Al Qaeda, but it doesn’t justify what Syria and Iran want to do to Israel today.
furthermore, if you look back at history, Jews have been in Palestine since long before Jesus Christ was born. Even after the Diaspora Jews went back and resettled in what today is Israel. You might want to check your history since you will find out that one of the first terrorist attacks by Palestinians, by Muslims on Jews living in moder day Israel took place in the 1920s. Do tell me, was Israel around back in the 1920s? NO! did the USA back Israel in the 1920s? NO! obviously the attacks were not isolated, they continued through out the 20s, 30s, and obviously until today.
so once again, Gregor is 100% wrong.
April 24th, 2007 at 2:01 pmLily: Ah yes, the anti-semitic liberals are out in force again. Thank you for proving us right again.
–
April 24th, 2007 at 2:03 pmmatthews.frank@gmail.com
Lily,
the wall is necessary!
Comment by Valiantthehater
Ethnic cleansing is all right with you? It’s because of this type of attitude that Muslims hate us.
April 24th, 2007 at 2:03 pmValiant, who am I stereotyping?
April 24th, 2007 at 2:05 pmGregor,
Juan Cs translation of Bolivar’s words spoken in Spanish are weak at best. He translated Bolivar’s word literally and you can’t do that.
Regardless, Bolivar in his old age, he wrote this letter days if not months before he died, was very disappointed that his vision of “La Gran Colombia” had not been accomplished, not because of his lack of trying, but rather because his enemies in S. America didn’t want it and the left wingers were too greedy to united under one flag and one nation.
Colombia, just so you know, is called Colombia because it is the only country that never got out of La Gran Colombia. That is why if you look at some countries in Latin America their flags are very similar.
April 24th, 2007 at 2:07 pmLily,
Ethnic cleansing? where is this happening? how is Israel doing this?
April 24th, 2007 at 2:08 pmLily,
please, do you live your life according to who likes you or doesn’t like you?
sorry, the Muslims that hate us will hate us regardless of what we do or don’t do.
there is NO ethnic cleansing going on.
do you approve of Palestinians and Muslims teaching their children how to kill Jews? do you agree with Palestinans using children programing to teach them to hate anyone that is not a Muslim? to teach them how to use an Ak-47?
April 24th, 2007 at 2:10 pmso why are you blaminig the USA for the sins of Europeans?
Comment by Valiantthehater — April 24, 2007 @ 1:58 pm
No. It was historical reference. Don’t by so hyperbolic.
do tell, how many Muslim nations has the USA conquered and split? do tell.
Well, now that you mention it: Iraq is under American occupation and there is talk of splitting it in three.
Maybe now you will understand why the idea will probably not sit well in Iraq.
and no duh wasn’t around 1300 years ago, but the kingdoms did unite and that is how they defeated the Moros in Spain.
No. Total Spanish unification happened only after the Muslims were finally out of Spain.
And fact remains that Spain couldn’t have done nothing to warrant an occupation because Spain didn’t exist back then -so you still got your facts wrong.
the fact is that Muslims have hated anyone that is not a Muslim for centuries, whether it was un Catalan, an Italian, a Greek, an Englishman, an American.
Not true. I have had Muslim classmates, coworkers, friends all my life and they didn’t hate me.
What is in the Koran is just as loony as what’s in, say, the Book of Mormon, or even the Bible itself where killing of non-believers is condoned.
this is just an excuse from the Muslims to justify their hate towards the western world.
Muslims don’t hate the Western world. They hate being occupied, just like any other nation would.
And Muslims are in the Western world. There are sizable Muslim minorities in Bulgaria, Croatia, Russia, Serbia, France. Not to mention the looming acceptance of Turkey in the EU, and its membership in NATO -two of the ultimate good ole Western boys clubs.
April 24th, 2007 at 2:11 pmValiant, read this.
http://www.truthdig.com/dig/item/20060725_israels_wall/P900/
I don’t really expect you to. You’re too narrow minded, and ignorant.
Back in a few hours.
April 24th, 2007 at 2:15 pmGregor,
once again, what Muslim nation has the United States conquered and occupied?
and do you not know the history of Iraq? who united Iraq? the League of Nations! and England.
they grabbed the Kurds, the Sunnis and the Shiites in Iraq and united them. You are taking snipits of history and twisting them to fit your flawed arguments and logic.
True there are millions upon millions of Muslims that do not hate Westerners, but I dare you to do this, ask your Muslim friend whether or not you are going to Heaven. Ask them if women can enter Heaven. Ask them if you are considered an infidel according to the Koran, according to their religion.
Whether you like it or not, admit it or not, today it is the extremists that have control of many Muslim nations, it doesn’t mean that most Muslim hate us, but the few that do are in power.
and about Spain, sorry, the kingdoms united to fight los Moros. Yes they made it a legal unification after the Moros were pushed out of Spain, but the Spanish kingdoms, their militaries united long before the Moros left Spain.
April 24th, 2007 at 2:17 pmso once again, Gregor is 100% wrong.
Comment by Valiantthehater — April 24, 2007 @ 2:01 pm
While I am not sure what exactly you are talking about, I will point out Jews and Muslims lived peacefully side by side in moder-day Israel or centuries.
Sure, there might have been Muslim-on-Jewish murders (oand viceversa) but there was no Muslim-Jewish war until after the creation of Israel.
He translated Bolivar’s word literally and you can’t do that.
Comment by Valiantthehater — April 24, 2007 @ 2:07 pm
Well, are you going to take literary liberties with Bolivar’s words now?
Are you going to pass off what you think he wanted to say, as what he actually said?
How rich…
April 24th, 2007 at 2:19 pmSo in order to have a discussion about these issues, one have taken a class, or be a muslim? Sorry, but I reject that.
When you pontificate as if you know more than people who are experts on the subject…then yeah, I think you’re out of line.
But the again, I think that about a lot of people who go on and on about subjects in which they claim to know more than people who have spent years studying. Makes me a pain-in-the-a** at parties…
April 24th, 2007 at 2:20 pmGregor Samsa,
wait, were you or one of your liberal friends not talking about them interpreting religion and religious texts, Bible, Koran, etc as they wish?
bolivar is not around to explain his words, so why wouldn’t I interpret them as I wish and according to the life he lead?
wow!
furthermore, since you it looks like you don’t speak another language, let me teach something about translating from one language to another. You can’t just translate the words since most likely than not you lose the meaning, you also have to go further than that. The individual words may be translated, but the meaning of the sentence, paragraph is lost since a literal translation was done.
and wrong, Muslims and Jews did not live in peace untl the creation of Israel, please!!!
learn some history guy. Was Israel around in the 1920s? NO! so do tell why were the Muslims in Palestine carrying terrorist attacks against Jews? it wasn’t just isolated incidents, it was much like today.
Muslims have been terrorizing Jews long before the creation of Israel.
April 24th, 2007 at 2:28 pmonce again, what Muslim nation has the United States conquered and occupied?
Comment by Valiantthehater — April 24, 2007 @ 2:17 pm
I already answered your question.
and do you not know the history of Iraq? who united Iraq? the League of Nations! and England.
Uh, no.
England carved Iraq out of the spoils of the Ottoman empire after WWI. What is modern-day Iraq was unified before that; under Ottoman rule, of course.
You are taking snipits of history and twisting them to fit your flawed arguments and logic.
You may want to check that particular part of Iraq’s history. You an start here.
And it’s “snippets”.
True there are millions upon millions of Muslims that do not hate Westerners, but I dare you to do this, ask your Muslim friend whether or not you are going to Heaven.
I don’t believe in Heaven, so I am going to Hell (which I also don’t believe in) regardless of the religion of the person I ask this question to. All my Christian friends and relatives think I am doomed.
It doesn’t worry me in the least whether or nor they think I will ascend to Heaven.
it doesn’t mean that most Muslim hate us, but the few that do are in power.
You mentioned Muslims, without any caveat.
and about Spain, sorry, the kingdoms united to fight los Moros.
No. Only Castille and Aragon did unite as one kingdom before Muslims were out of Spain.
Other kingdoms remained independent even after that. Check the kings of Leon here, and the history of Navarre here.
Note how Navarre was conquered by Castille in the 1500s
Yes they made it a legal unification after the Moros were pushed out of Spain, but the Spanish kingdoms, their militaries united long before the Moros left Spain.
They were not “united”. They fought together.
In fact, Castille had to conquer some of the other kingdoms in order to unify Spain. See my response above.
April 24th, 2007 at 2:33 pmComment by Valiantthehater — April 24, 2007 @ 2:28 pm
I am fluent -and fully literate- in three languages, thanks for the explanation on how to translate.
Regarding Bolivar’s words: Their meaning is clear. He may have had harsh words for other nations, but that doesn’t take anything away from what he said about the US.
At any rate, you still haven’t offered an alternate explanation as to what he meant. You only have said he also bashed other countries; in essence, agreeing with Juan C’s point.
April 24th, 2007 at 2:37 pmGregor,
please, please, please do not use wikipedia, it isn’t exactly the most reliable source around. Remember your two year old can edit all of its contents.
regardless, the Spanish kingdoms did unite to fight Los Moros and drive them out of Spain.
hmmm…..no, Iraq was first united with the help of Lawrence of Arabia, which has been so famously depicted in a movie by the same name. This happened in the 1920s guy.
April 24th, 2007 at 2:48 pmGregor,
and you didn’t answer my question, you just claimed to be using hyperbole.
I am still waiting, give me a number, 0 through infinity, whch Muslim nations has the United States conquered.
you made this claim in an earlier post, now name the Muslim nations that the USA has conquered.
April 24th, 2007 at 2:50 pmGregor,
furthermore, who cares whether you believe in Heaven or not. Heaven doesn’t exist according to whether you believe in it or not.
and we weren’t talking about the existance of Heaven, but rather what Muslims believe. Once again, I dare you to ask your Muslim friends whether or not according to their religion you will go to Heaven. It doesn’t matter whether you behave or not, but rather it is based on whether you are Muslim or not.
Furthermore, ask you Muslim friends if women can enter their Heaven.
why are you afraid of the answers?
April 24th, 2007 at 2:53 pmplease, please, please do not use wikipedia, it isn’t exactly the most reliable source around. Remember your two year old can edit all of its contents.
Comment by Valiantthehater — April 24, 2007 @ 2:48 pm
You can start there. It’s got plenty of references.
regardless, the Spanish kingdoms did unite to fight Los Moros and drive them out of Spain.
Regardless, they were not united in the sense you wanted to give it. Lest we forget, Spain didn’t exist back then so you still got your facts wrong.
hmmm…..no, Iraq was first united with the help of Lawrence of Arabia, which has been so famously depicted in a movie by the same name. This happened in the 1920s guy.
Er… You are not citing a movie as your historical reference, are you?
Again, England carved Mesopotamia out of the spoils of the Ottoman Empire after WWI. Iraq didn’t even exist before that, and they were granted independence by the British crown in the 1930s.
There is a gap of about a decade in your account.
April 24th, 2007 at 2:58 pmyou made this claim in an earlier post, now name the Muslim nations that the USA has conquered.
Comment by Valiantthehater — April 24, 2007 @ 2:50 pm
I didn’t make any such claim. I mentioned Europe for historical reference which you misconstrued as me blaming the US.
Go back and re-read my (and your) posts.
Heaven doesn’t exist according to whether you believe in it or not.
Comment by Valiantthehater — April 24, 2007 @ 2:53 pm
Your question only makes sense if I believe in Heaven.
And you are right. Heaven doesn’t exist regardless of whether you want to believe in it or not.
Once again, I dare you to ask your Muslim friends whether or not according to their religion you will go to Heaven.
And the answer I gave you is that all religious persons I may ask this question to will give me the same answer because I am not a follower of any religion.
why are you afraid of the answers?
What are you talking about? All religious people have already told me I am not going to Heaven, not just the Muslims.
Which is just as well, because there is no Heaven.
April 24th, 2007 at 3:04 pmGregor,
are you kidding me, do you not know that there is a Biography of Lawrence of Arabia, that there are countless books written about him and what he did in Iraq? wow!!!
Not united in the sense I wanted to give it? do tell, how do you know what sense I ment? where you in my head? did you read my thoughts? please! don’t even try it. You put meaning into my posts where no meaning exists! try again.
and once again, I would urge you to read Lawrence of Arabia books, and his great accomplishments in united the arab tribes in Iraq!
Iraq as we know it today did not exist under the Ottoman Empire as you are trying ot make it seem. Iraq as we know it today began in the 1920s thanks to Lawrence of Arabia, England and the League of Nations.
I would urge you to close down wikipedia and pick up a real book.
you aren’t sounding too smart or too educated, but you are certainly assuming a lot of things.
April 24th, 2007 at 3:08 pmGregor,
Heaven’s existance doesn’t rely on whether you believe it exists or not. You don’t need to believe in Heaven in order for it to exist. Understood? It is there, whether you believe in it or not.
and you refuse to answer the question of how women are though of by Muslims….
do tell, do Muslims regard women as human beings, as equals? do they?
can they enter what Muslim calls Heaven?
and as a Roman Catholic, I can tell you that you may or may not go to Heaven. Only God knows. You don’t need to believe in a religion in order to enter Heaven or go to Hell.
April 24th, 2007 at 3:12 pmValiantthehater
It is there, whether you believe in it or not.
Interesting assertion. You seem to be very sure of this. What makes you so sure?
April 24th, 2007 at 3:16 pmGregor,
let us talk modern times in Spain. Do you think it is right for Muslims in Spain to be calling on the Roman Catholic Church to give up one of their Churches because during the 400 year occupation of the Spanish Kingdoms it was built as a Muslim site to pray?
Islam as you know, says that once you conquer a land it belongs to Muslims whether they stay or not. Did you know that? of course not. Thus according to the Muslims, all of Spain and many parts of South Western Europe still is part of Muslim countries. Today, they are asking for territories and buildings to be given back to them.
do you agree with this?
April 24th, 2007 at 3:16 pmBoy, Valiantthehater is one twisted revisionist. I quote:
sorry, Gregor is 100% wrong in his statement. Muslim nations have hated Israel since the second they heard the United Nation was going to give Israelis back their land in the 1940s. Do tell, what had Israel done to the Muslim nations in 1948? Muslim nations united and tried to massacre all Jews in Israel and they tried to conquer this land. I mean you do believe int eh United Nations, right? The United Nations created Israel and placed it where it is today, right?
First, the British made contradictory promises during World War One. They promised the Arabs independence and they promised the Zionists a Jewish homeland. At the end of the war, the British betrayed the Arabs (see Lawrence of Arabia’s Seven Pillars of Wisdom) and occupied Palestine –that’s what it was called.
As the governing authority, the British then began encouraging Jewish immigration and offering public land to Jewish settlers. The Palestinians were understandably upset as they were not even consulted and had no control over their own land and its dispossession. (BTW, the slogan “A land without people for a people without land” is a lie.)
How could the UN ‘give back’ the land of the Israelis? Israel had ceased to exist 2000 years before. Shall we see if the UN will give back the USA to the First Nations of America? Perhaps one could convince the UN to give back Britain to the Britons and take it away from those WASPs.
Finally, what’s all this nonsense about scary Muslim states. Israel is a Jewish state. Why? What’s with the throwback to the 17th century? Shouldn’t Israel be a secular state? Why shouldn’t Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza not be reunited into a secular state?
Israel exists. That’s a fact. And both Syria and Iran have periodically expressed interest in recognizing that fact. But Israel cannot occupy the West Bank and Gaza forever, keeping the Palestinians in what is more or less bantustans or concentration camps. If Israel cannot get along with the people who were there before the Balfour Declaration, then Israel is a failed state.
April 24th, 2007 at 3:17 pmCrump,
I will have to admit it is a leap of Faith, but it is one of those things that I am just 100% sure about. Kind of like I am 100% sure my wife loves me. You know.
But just as I know that my wife loves me because of her actions and me “studyinig” her actions. I have studied the Catholic Faith and its theology and the Great Doctors of the Church. While there is plenty that you must make a leap of Faith to believe in, there are many things that can be believed through simple human logic.
but we must all understand that God, Heaven, Hell, Satan, etc do not rely upon us believing in them in order for them to exist.
Now, I believe that Gregor, and others have the right to not believe in Heaven, Hell, God, Satan, and just like the Church teaches, it doesn’t mean that they will go to Hell. At the end, only God knows and only God can judge your soul and what you were really thinking and why you thought that way.
I know that Gregor will be shocked when he dies and his soul goes to either Heaven or Hell.
April 24th, 2007 at 3:26 pmValiantthehater,
Isn’t it also possible, that you will be shocked to find that when you die, there is no heaven or hell?
April 24th, 2007 at 3:32 pmFunny, the Prime Minister of Pakistan from 1988 to 1990 was woman. The prime minister of Turkey from 1993 to 1996 was a woman. The Prime Minister of Bangladesh from 1996 to 2001 was a woman.
How many women have been president of the United States?
Seems many people here have a clue about the difference between a religion, which is embraced by over a billion people in almost every country in the world, and the cultural restrictions and bias unique to different countries, regions and people’s.
Many people on this thread can’t seem to grasp that sexism and bigotry (evne insitutionallized ones) which are prevalent in many places in the Islamic world are not based on the religion, but long-standing cultural custom. Such inequality would exist where the culture religion Christianity, or Buddhism, etc.
The level of ignorance on display in this thread is nothing short of amazing.
April 24th, 2007 at 3:33 pmWell, after reading the posts, it seems we have reached a consensus that:
1. Muslims view all others as infidels, who in turn must be destroyed. This point is irrefutable and those who have not researched this issue should not attempt to chime in with half-baked truths (alas, but you probably will anyway…). I will state this again so you understand, if you are not Muslim, you are an infidel. No debate.
2. Christianity did cause havoc centuries ago, but when a purported Christian causes havoc today, he is soundly denounced by other (true) Christians and there is no fear of irrational escalation of violence (unlike Muslims who think a person creating a cartoon in the name of free speech earns you a ticket straight to Hell).
3. Muslims do not condemn acts of atrocity committed today in the name of their religion. See my point in #2 above. Indeed, they glorify mothers who leave their children behind while they strap a bomb under their dress and blow up other children.
4. Muslims do not believe in equal protection or due process of the laws. Before you chide this point, think VERY carefully. It is irrefutable that if you are not a Muslim, your ability to own property, vote, go out in public without being fully covered, get a divorce, seek custody of your children, embrace a different religion, embrace a person of the same sex, engage in free speech (as we do now), etc., will not be guaranteed as a basic human right and may well earn you a ticket to their beloved headchopper.
5. Any person who thinks that Muslims believe in a form of co-existence with the rest of the world may continue to believe so, even to the point where they are carted off to be killed, or otherwise destroyed in the name of (silly) “martyrdom.”
April 24th, 2007 at 3:34 pmCrump,
No, it isn’t possible, because I know there is a Heaven, a Hell, a God, a Satan, Angels, etc, etc, etc.
there is no doubt in my mind.
April 24th, 2007 at 3:34 pmValiantthehater, you really have a twisted revisionist view of history. And you don’t know squat about Muslim history.
April 24th, 2007 at 3:42 pmValiantthehater,
While I respect your ‘beliefs’ you must understand that you don’t ‘know’! You believe. You have a very strong belief, but it is a belief based on stories that you have been told. That’s ok, but it’s not that same as having actual evidence which would, at the very least, make heaven a probability. It is only myth. No different in it’s truth than Odin or Zeus.
April 24th, 2007 at 3:45 pmCrump,
oh no, it goes beyond being told a story! please. Have you ever studied theology? my beliefs about Heaven, Hell, etc as a young boy were based on stories, but as I grew older and went to college and beyond. I have studied theology, and through human logic, going way beyond logic, I have come to the conclusion and know that God, Heaven, Hell, Satan exist.
You know, not attacking you, but most people that haven’t studied theology say what you say. Also most people that studied religion only until high school or only until the end of junior high say what you just said.
think about this, if you only studied science, history, math, etc until the end of junior high, would you not say that these are for children, myths taught to us when we were young?
furthermore, human logic, studying, reading, etc, leads you to believe in a God, Heaven, etc.
there is a reason why great scientist like Einstein, Newton, etc all came to the conclusion that there was a God.
and just like when you study science, math, history, etc and you know there is more to it than what you know, theology is the same way.
sorry, not myths guy, not even close to Zeus, Odin, etc, etc.
April 24th, 2007 at 3:49 pmValiantthehater,
This is a good conversation. Newton had to say he was a God fearing man or he would have been executed, so debating that is probably pretty pointless.
I must defend Einstein here though. He was not a Christian. Many have made this claim, but it isn’t true. His own words make it so.
“It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie, which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but expressed it clearly.â€
April 24th, 2007 at 4:12 pm“You’re doin’ a heckuva job, Karen Hughes!” ….Chimpy
April 24th, 2007 at 5:28 pmare you kidding me, do you not know that there is a Biography of Lawrence of Arabia, that there are countless books written about him and what he did in Iraq? wow!!!
Comment by Valiantthehater — April 24, 2007 @ 3:08 pm
What are you talking about?
I asked if you were actually taking a movie as a historical reference. In other words, do you think the movie is 100% accurate? Do you think you can use the movie to make a point about Iraq’s history? (remember that it’s a movie and parts are fictionalized)
And you think my Wikipedia references are shaky? What a joke.
Iraq as we know it today did not exist under the Ottoman Empire as you are trying ot make it seem.
I didn’t make anything seem anything at all. You are a bad case of poor reading comprehension.
What I said was “what is modern-day Iraq was unified before that; under Ottoman rule, of course.”
In other words, although the territories that make up moder-day Iraq were under the Ottoman Empire’s jurisdiction, the country now-known as Iraq didn’t exist.
Iraq as we know it today began in the 1920s thanks to Lawrence of Arabia, England and the League of Nations.
Iraq was granted independence by the English crown in the 1930s. The League of Nations intervened at the end of WWI to give England mandate over what is now Iraq, Iran, Afghanistan, etc.
I would urge you to close down wikipedia and pick up a real book.
You could follow your own advise and pick up a book instead of watching a romanticized account of T.E. Lawrence’s life.
you aren’t sounding too smart or too educated, but you are certainly assuming a lot of things.
Well, at least I know how to spell “snippets”.
Heaven’s existance doesn’t rely on whether you believe it exists or not. You don’t need to believe in Heaven in order for it to exist. Understood? It is there, whether you believe in it or not.
Comment by Valiantthehater — April 24, 2007 @ 3:12 pm
Lots of assumption in one short paragraph.
The belief in the after life is just that: A belief.
Understood? A belief.
and you refuse to answer the question of how women are though of by Muslims [...] can they enter what Muslim calls Heaven?
Because it’s a silly question. Of course women can enter the Islamic version of Heaven. Fatima will be there to greet them, and they will be led by her.
And of course you will say that that is not true.
You don’t need to believe in a religion in order to enter Heaven or go to Hell.
Comment by Valiantthehater — April 24, 2007 @ 3:12 pm
Yes, you do. You need to have been baptized. You also need to have accepted Christ as the Messiah in order to gain access to the Christian version of Heaven.
That’s part of the Catholic Church’s catechism.
Bottom line: You need to accept the basic tenets of a religion in order to qualify for access to that particular religion’s version of Heaven.
April 24th, 2007 at 6:08 pmComment by Valiantthehater — April 24, 2007 @ 3:16 pm
::sigh::
Yes, theHater, I want every loony religious group to get away with whatever loony claim they may come up with.
/sarcasm off
Keep asking hyperbolic questions like that and I will stop responding in a civilised manner.
April 24th, 2007 at 6:11 pmI have come to the conclusion and know that God, Heaven, Hell, Satan exist.
Comment by Valiantthehater — April 24, 2007 @ 3:49 pm
You must have done a lot of research, wacko. You are a Christian Jihadist.
Newton had to say he was a God fearing man or he would have been executed, so debating that is probably pretty pointless.
Comment by Crump’s Brother — April 24, 2007 @ 4:12 pm
I think you mean Galileo. Newton was never under that threat.
April 24th, 2007 at 7:13 pmOh, I think the Muslims themselves are doing a pretty good job of undermining Islam.
April 25th, 2007 at 1:25 am