Bush: If You Judge My Iraq Strategy By The Number Of Violent Attacks, The Terrorists Win
Bush: If You Judge My Iraq Strategy By The Number Of Violent Attacks, The Terrorists Win
In an interview last night on PBS, President Bush complained that people who measure progress in Iraq by how many car bombs and suicide attacks occur are giving a “huge victory” to the enemy by making it more difficult for him to promote the war to the American public.
“If the standard of success is no car bombings or suicide bombings,” Bush said, “we have just handed those who commit suicide bombings a huge victory.” He repeated later that people who “judge the administration’s [escalation] plan” based on such acts of violence “have just given Al Qaida or any other extremist a significant victories [sic].”
Bush said that these images of brutal violence on television are “one of the problems I face in trying to convince the American people” that the war is worthwhile. Watch it:
Another reason President Bush doesn’t want to talk about suicide bombings: they’ve increased 30 percent over the past six weeks despite the escalation, according to U.S. military data.
Transcript:
ROSE: There is no question on their part and on your part that catastrophe worse than it is today is inevitable if there’s not a political solution and if the United States pulls out in the near term.
BUSH: Well, first of all, you said this is a catastrophe worse today. You know, it is….
ROSE: Well, there’s sectarian violence that is of a certain level.
BUSH: It is, but it’s significantly lower than it was a couple of months ago.
ROSE: And is there an acceptable level of violence?
BUSH: Well, that’s the question to the Iraqi people. That’s a fascinating question. I mean, there is an acceptable level of violence in certain societies around the world. And the question is, you know, what is that level? That’s where the experts come in. You know, you and I can’t determine that sitting here in New York, but we can ask people’s advice upon it. David Petraeus is — would have an opinion on that. Ryan Crocker, our ambassador in Iraq. That’s a very interesting way of putting the question. Because all — there is an acceptable level of violence in all societies. Even our own.
ROSE: And where do you…
BUSH: Even though all violence needs to be abhorred — nevertheless, there is, you know, there’s certain violence, levels of violence that people say, well, gosh, I can go about my life, I’ve got…
ROSE: We can’t create zero violence is what you’re saying.
BUSH: Well — and by the way, if the standard of success is no car bombings or suicide bombings, we have just handed those who commit suicide bombings a huge victory. In other words, if you say, you know, I’m going to judge the administration’s plan based upon whether they’re able to have no car bombings in Baghdad. We will have just given — because car bombings are hard to stop, or suicide bombings, very hard to stop.
We have just given Al Qaida or any other extremist a significant victories. And that’s one of the problems I face in trying to convince the American people, one, this is doable. In other words, I wouldn’t have our troops there if I didn’t think this is, one, important; and secondly, achievable.
But I also understand on their TV screens, people are saying horrific bombings, and they’re saying to themselves, is this possible? Can we possibly succeed in the face of this kind of violence? And that’s where this enemy, the enemy of moderation, has got a, you know, they’ve got a powerful tool (inaudible).
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Who you gonna believe?
a. George Bush
b. Your own lying eyes?
(for the 30ish % that continue to choose option “a”, fcuk you very much)
April 25th, 2007 at 11:32 amHow should we measure success Mr. President?
April 25th, 2007 at 11:33 amyeah… uh… george stopped checking in with me about 6 years ago. Remember 9/11? yeah uhm… after that he pretty much crapped himself and hasn’t checked back in…
April 25th, 2007 at 11:34 amThe worst president( dictator) in the history of America….Impeach, jail and seize all assets….Blessings
April 25th, 2007 at 11:35 amIf you criticize the Commander in Chief, the terrorists win.
April 25th, 2007 at 11:37 amBUSH: Well — and by the way, if the standard of success is no car bombings or suicide bombings, we have just handed those who commit suicide bombings a huge victory.
April 25th, 2007 at 11:37 amAnd just what is the Admin’s standard of success?
Patreus: “Look, there’s a man watering the grass!” Mission Accomplished.
“ROSE: And is there an acceptable level of violence?
BUSH: Well, that’s the question to the Iraqi people. That’s a fascinating question. I mean, there is an acceptable level of violence in certain societies around the world.”
How detached is this sociopath? Just over a week after the VT rampage. George, how about if there was one of those a day in America? What that be acceptable? If not acceptable here, why would it be anywhere else in the world? You are a freak.
April 25th, 2007 at 11:38 am#2
Agreed.
No wonder we can’t win the war. We don’t know what we have to do to win!
How many times must we listen to “Mission Accomplished” before it really is accomplished?
April 25th, 2007 at 11:38 amCrump’s Brother
I have asked trolls that very question multiple times without a satisfactory answer. And the politicians with any sense have phrased it as “what are the benchmarks”. The trolls and the President have the same answer: you hate America and want it to fail. Pathetic.
April 25th, 2007 at 11:38 amVV stands for Wrong.
April 25th, 2007 at 11:38 am“…judge the administration’s [escalation] plan†based on such acts of violence “have just given Al Qaida or any other extremist a significant victories [sic].â€
It’s obvious why he said “a significant victories [sic].” He was about to say “a significant victory” and in mid-sentence thought “victories” would sound more dramatic and better for his propaganda. Typical Bushism.
April 25th, 2007 at 11:38 amYes, reality can be a serious distraction when Bush is trying to convince the American people to believe in his fantasy world.
April 25th, 2007 at 11:39 amAnother reason President Bush doesn’t want to talk about suicide bombings: they’ve increased 30 percent over the past six weeks despite the escalation, according to U.S. military data.
Increased despite the escalation, or because of it?
April 25th, 2007 at 11:40 amBush would like to have it both ways. The american people are totally finished with this guy. When the 2004 Ohio treachery is investigated, as it’s purported to be soon, then he will finally have another legacy: The President Who Really Wasn’t President; or The President Who Hacked His own Election.
April 25th, 2007 at 11:42 amIf you judge Bush by the number of living braincells my Koi wins!!!
April 25th, 2007 at 11:42 amb.. b… but clinton… er, uh detroit, um gosh, indiana summer night, doh?
April 25th, 2007 at 11:43 amYou mean feeding the enemy we are at war with consant praise and encouragement is not a good idea? Hmmm? That it actually shows them what they are doing is very successful? Hmmm?
April 25th, 2007 at 11:45 amPresident Bush complained that people who measure progress in Iraq by how many car bombs and suicide attacks occur are giving a “huge victory†to the enemy by making it more difficult for him to promote the war to the American public.
I’m glad it’s at least a little difficult for you, Dear Leader.
April 25th, 2007 at 11:46 amHopefully, it will be become more difficult every single day you are in office.
I’m getting really tired of traitors like Chimpy questioning my patriotism.
April 25th, 2007 at 11:47 amHe has a hard time convincing anyone of anything because he has no credibility and should be impeached for his lies and failed policies that endanger all of us.
April 25th, 2007 at 11:47 amIf you can’t judge how well things are going by how many violent attacks they successfully pull off, how else at this point would you determine anything. How you can you possibly focus on anything else???
April 25th, 2007 at 11:49 amWell, if you take his comment literally…he is telling the truth. If we judge Bush’s strategy by the actual number of attacks, the number of deaths, the destruction, chaos and civil war then absolutely is shows us that terrorism is winning.
The problem here is not that Bush is telling a literal truth. the problem is that Bush is too ignorant to understand what he is actually saying.
April 25th, 2007 at 11:50 amMy football team is undefeated, but I don’t keep track of the score. My quarterback is perfect: of course, I don’t keep track of incompletions or interceptions because if you count those, then he wouldn’t be perfect.
Is this idiot really our president? Maybe there was some accident six years ago and I’m actually in a coma experiencing some sort of nightmare.
April 25th, 2007 at 11:51 amnow, only the ‘inner circle’ of believers is behind the war. they are slowly, but not surely, beginning to realize that it is impossible to militarily prevent, say, car bombings. only political and diplomatic (and economic) solutions can prevent car bombings.
if they had only known this going in (and listened to real liberals)….
April 25th, 2007 at 11:52 amAsk not for whom the Chimp smirks.
He smirks for thee.
April 25th, 2007 at 11:52 amliberalism=mental disorder sez:
Shut the hell up, jackass. No one here is “praising” the “enemy”.
They don’t need our “validation” to know how they’re doing…after all, they’re the ones who are there.
Which raises an interesting question…if you’re so concerned about achieving “victory” in Chimpy’s “war”, why are you wasting time here? I’m sure the recruiters would love to sign you up.
April 25th, 2007 at 11:53 amcan anyone actually understand what he’s trying to say? bush and his wife have a really hard time making sound and provable claims.
April 25th, 2007 at 11:53 amHow are the attacks and bombings not relevant? The escalation is supposed to “put down sectarian violence and bring security to the people of Baghdad.”
CBS News: Violence suggests Iraq ’surge’ is failing:
April 25th, 2007 at 11:54 am
The boy-king might like to take a few of Laura’s Xanax. He needs to calm down a bit, face reality.
April 25th, 2007 at 11:54 amThe Iraqi govt. is not releasing figures of civilian casualties but Georgie says violent attacks are irrelevant.
Bush, Cheney, Giuliani and McCain, with Lieberman behind them. The gang of five who deny reality because their egos are blinding them.
BUSH: If you question anything about me, Laura, Dick, TurdBlossom or Barney, the terrorists win.
#2: Don’t you know? Success means winning!
April 25th, 2007 at 11:55 amLaura Bush couldn’t agree more:
April 25th, 2007 at 11:56 am“Many parts of Iraq are stable now. But, of course, what we see on television is the one bombing a day that discourages everybody.” (February 2007)
I think Pres Bush needs to learn what’s meant by a Pyrrhic Victory. “One more mission accomplished like Iraq and we’ll be undone.”
April 25th, 2007 at 11:56 amOrwellian doublespeak- we’re living it.
“It Can’t Happen Here”- Sinclair Lewis, 193 (7)?
be prepared to be scared
April 25th, 2007 at 11:56 amI’m getting really tired of traitors like Chimpy questioning my patriotism.
Comment by TripMaster Monkey
Exactly.
April 25th, 2007 at 11:56 amOh, that poor misunderstood genius. It’s our fault we don’t see the brilliance of his policies.
April 25th, 2007 at 11:57 amThe lastest Associated Press report on Iraq notes, “A suicide bomber breached Baghdad’s heavy security presence again Thursday, killing a dozen people in a mostly Shiite district a day after more than 230 people died in one of the war’s deadliest episodes of violence.”
Bush, the sociopath, says a certain amount is acceptable.
He has truly crossed into the land of oblivion.
How long will it take before the repugs condemn the “liberal press” for reporting the news?
April 25th, 2007 at 11:57 amYou mean feeding the enemy we are at war with consant praise and encouragement is not a good idea? Hmmm? That it actually shows them what they are doing is very successful? Hmmm?
Comment by liberalism=mental disorder
For one who claims to dislike the right as much as you dislike the left, you certainly do sound like a loyal lock-step wingnut. Congrats!
April 25th, 2007 at 11:58 amIs TP saying that we should in fact retreat from Iraq because the terrorists are increasing their attacks? Wouldn’t that be against logic? Your basically saying that if the enemy attacks us we should retreat. As a former military soldier, we are trained that if the enemy attacks, you attack back. You keep attacking until the enemy is dead or you decide that the enemy is better then you and you declare a loss and retreat. Is TP declaring the enemy has won and we should retreat?
April 25th, 2007 at 11:58 amThereby confirming what everybody already knows, that this war is a perpetual Imperial conflict, where the only “strategy” is to kill as many people as possible (our “enemies”) at a safe distance from US shores.
How this is supposed to make us more secure I really fail to understand.
In fact, such methods virtually guarantee more attacks on the US, by stirring up such hatred against us that it is only a matter of time before somebody gets through with a big attack here at home.
My guess that will come by some inexplicable co-incidence, right about the time that Bush and Cheney are impeached and removed from office.
Talk about a “vast right wing conspiracy”.
April 25th, 2007 at 11:58 amHEY TROLLs!!!!!!!!!
How can YOU, with your obviously limited mental capacity even stoop to
defending anything this shit-for brains retard says?
April 25th, 2007 at 11:58 amWould someone please give this guy a blow job, so we can impeach him!?!
April 25th, 2007 at 12:04 pmLoser Loser, you should retreat because you lost….again.
Why is it the ‘Most Powerful Military in the World” can’t win anything?
Hint: It’s not cause you didn’t stay long enough or kill enough teenagers….
You can’t win fake conflicts based on lies or wars with ever shifting rationales that no one but the oil men and neocons can get behind…
April 25th, 2007 at 12:04 pm“No one suffers more than their President and I do.†— Laura Bush on Iraq
April 25th, 2007 at 12:04 pmBushworld: Tails I win – Heads you lose. If the # of attacks go up, stay the same, or go down – my strategery is winning.
April 25th, 2007 at 12:05 pmFor one who claims to dislike the right as much as you dislike the left, you certainly do sound like a loyal lock-step wingnut. Congrats!
Comment by Zooey
Believe me there are plenty of things I can complain about with the president, I can list them if you want. However, I believe he is right in this case, terrorists blow things up to make statements and get media coverage, which we give plenty of. I’m not saying we shouldn’t report the truth, but there is a fine line.
April 25th, 2007 at 12:05 pm“we have just handed those who commit suicide bombings a huge victory.â€
I know what he is trying to say but think about how stupid that line is. How can you hand suicide bombers a huge victory – THEY’RE DEAD!!!
April 25th, 2007 at 12:06 pmMr. Bush’s problem is not the brutality of war, Americans already knew about that. It’s not the images of war and the way it brutalizes victor and vanquished alike. If he hadn’t been drunk until he was forty, he might have seen tv images of Vietnam while he wasn’t doing his duty for the TANG.
Mr. Bush’s problem is that people don’t believe him any more, and have had it with his incompetence.
Since George refuses to attend even a single military funeral from among the more than 3300 who have died in his wars, reasonable people assume he’s still running away from the consequences of his actions. A glance at his resume would suggest that that’s nothing new. It’s standard operating procedure.
April 25th, 2007 at 12:08 pmImpeach Cheney.
April 25th, 2007 at 12:08 pmliberalism=mental disorder,
I could care less what the “terrorists” think – why do you?
April 25th, 2007 at 12:08 pmBushworld:
April 25th, 2007 at 12:09 pmFacts and Reality = Bad for America.
Zooey! Howdy. Any classes today?
April 25th, 2007 at 12:10 pmWhich raises an interesting question…if you’re so concerned about achieving “victory†in Chimpy’s “warâ€, why are you wasting time here? I’m sure the recruiters would love to sign you up.
Comment by TripMaster Monkey
I don’t think they want a 52 year old.
April 25th, 2007 at 12:11 pmliberalism=mental disorder,
I could care less what the “terrorists†think – why do you?
Comment by Robert
Because it inspires them to do more bombings.
April 25th, 2007 at 12:12 pmOne of the primary motives of terrorism is to get governments to overreact, such as invading and occupying Iraq… Way to go W – you did exactly what Al Queda wanted you to do!
April 25th, 2007 at 12:12 pmBushLoving is a mental disorder,
If you think not reporting the factual news will stop terrorists, I’ve got an arch in St Louis I’d like to seel you.
April 25th, 2007 at 12:14 pmIt’s “I COULDN’T care less.”
April 25th, 2007 at 12:14 pmChimpylovers have a mental disorder.
April 25th, 2007 at 12:15 pmmental midget -
perhaps its the continued illegal occupation of their land that inspires them to do more bombings.
April 25th, 2007 at 12:16 pmBecause it inspires them to do more bombings.
Comment by liberalism=mental disorder
Must I drag out the Reagan bat again? I’d have thought beating you silly with it yesterday would have been enough. You must be a masochist.
April 25th, 2007 at 12:18 pmmental midget -
perhaps its the continued illegal occupation of their land that inspires them to do more bombings.
Comment by Lupeyg2
Sure, if we left today peace would reign in the Middle East.
April 25th, 2007 at 12:19 pmEvery time I listen to Bush, I get dumber and dumber. erer
April 25th, 2007 at 12:19 pmI’m not saying we shouldn’t report the truth, but there is a fine line.
Comment by liberalism=mental disorder
Weasel words.
April 25th, 2007 at 12:20 pmI find it hard to believe any of this stuff,Like why do his generals follow him?
April 25th, 2007 at 12:20 pmAs a vet I find holes in almost all of the tactics used.
Why do they attack only one house and leave others knowing they have iraqi strong holds?
It’s another vietnam,Sure there will be more car bombs , Why not?
They know that it is only one in every ten places with them in it is hit.
They can regroup and start anew.
I see Bush as a child who never grew up and considers this country his sandbox.
There will never be a mission acomplished as long as the country will not unite(iraq).
The whole is no better than it’s parts.
We are wasting lives and money on a people that do not care.
Bush and Clinton families have run this country for over 20 years with very little inmprovement,It’s time for a change for the better .
Zooey! Howdy. Any classes today?
Comment by whiteyfresh
I’m good, whitey. How’s your head? Feeling any better?
Geology & lab today, which works almost the whole frickin’ day. Oy.
April 25th, 2007 at 12:21 pmOnly two weeks until finals, and then summer!
Bush and his friends have been denying we’re losing this war for years. Has it had changed anything? Has it discouraged the bombings?
April 25th, 2007 at 12:22 pmMust I drag out the Reagan bat again? I’d have thought beating you silly with it yesterday would have been enough. You must be a masochist.
Comment by barfly
You must change events when you look back on them. Said beating never took place.
April 25th, 2007 at 12:23 pmWeasel words.
Comment by Zooey
Profound statement. Come on you can do much better than that.
April 25th, 2007 at 12:23 pm“Bush said that these images of brutal violence on television are “one of the problems I face in trying to convince the American people†that the war is worthwhile.”
What are the problems he faces convincing the Iraqi people that the war is worthwhile?
April 25th, 2007 at 12:24 pmBush says that George Washington was a terrorist, because he fought against foreign (British) occupation back in 1776. Bush says that Ben Franklin was a terrorist was a terrorist because he fought against foreign (British) occupation back in 1776. Bush says that our American resistance to British colonial rule and occupation from 1776 to 1783 was terrorism…
April 25th, 2007 at 12:25 pmThank you very much, Mr. President, for that lovely bit of wisdom…
“perhaps its the continued illegal occupation of their land that inspires them to do more bombings.”
and the lack of water, electricity, a banking system, etc.
April 25th, 2007 at 12:26 pmmental midget said:
Sure, if we left today peace would reign in the Middle East.
Not in the entire middle east, but it would in Iraq since we “liberated” them. The only way they would terrorize themselves is if they hated their own freedom….right? Wasn’t that the plan the whole time – let them taste freedom and they’ll completely change their whole way of life and follow good Christian values?
Sorry, it’s hard for me to keep this all straight since liberation was #18 on the list of “Why the f*ck are we in Iraq?”.
April 25th, 2007 at 12:26 pmgeorge the idiot is his own worst enemy – here we go with the daily blame game
April 25th, 2007 at 12:28 pmChimpy is an idiot and this quote proves it.
April 25th, 2007 at 12:28 pmWe have a new enemy: the enemy of moderation? So, the more car bombings and suicide bombings means we’re making progress?
Is anyone getting motion sick because of the Bush Spin?
April 25th, 2007 at 12:29 pmSure, if we left today peace would reign in the Middle East.
Comment by liberalism=mental disorder
Similar things were said about Vietnam. We left, and the sky didn’t fall. The Domino theory fell, and you guys have been looking for something equally scary ever since.
And anyone who cares to look at yesterday’s thread will clearly see you getting you ass whipped, repeatedly, Mr. No Historical Perspective.
April 25th, 2007 at 12:30 pmProfound statement. Come on you can do much better than that.
Comment by liberalism=mental disorder
Yes, I can, but I’m pressed for time, so I used simple and powerful words that are easy to understand.
April 25th, 2007 at 12:30 pmbush: “PAY NO ATTENTION TO THAT MAN BEHIND THE CURTAIN!!!!”
April 25th, 2007 at 12:32 pm.
There are a lot of crooks that would like you to invest your money into their companies without looking at the financial statements also. Just how stupid does Bush think Americans are?
Of course the real enemy for Bush are the Democrats and I’m hoping they win on 08.
April 25th, 2007 at 12:33 pmNot in the entire middle east, but it would in Iraq since we “liberated†them. The only way they would terrorize themselves is if they hated their own freedom….right? Wasn’t that the plan the whole time – let them taste freedom and they’ll completely change their whole way of life and follow good Christian values?
Sorry, it’s hard for me to keep this all straight since liberation was #18 on the list of “Why the f*ck are we in Iraq?â€.
Comment by Lupeyg2
All the sectarian violence has been going on for hundreds of years. Saddam kept one group under his thumb now they want a piece of the pie. It is our job to try and keep them from killing eachother now and at the same time keep Al Qaeda at bay while all this happens.
April 25th, 2007 at 12:34 pm#73 -and how, the spin and stench from the bush/ cheney locker room is eveywhere
April 25th, 2007 at 12:37 pmSimilar things were said about Vietnam. We left, and the sky didn’t fall. The Domino theory fell, and you guys have been looking for something equally scary ever since.
And anyone who cares to look at yesterday’s thread will clearly see you getting you ass whipped, repeatedly, Mr. No Historical Perspective.
Comment by barfly
This is not the same as Vietnam, you certainly have a knack for over-simplifying. Aside from people whining about how horrible this war is back home how is this the same as Vietnam. I am interested in your take on it.
Please people look in yesterday’s thread to find out barfly is talking out of his/her ass.
April 25th, 2007 at 12:38 pm“It is our job to try and keep them from killing each other”
No it isn’t, dumbass.
April 25th, 2007 at 12:38 pmMental midget said:
It is our job to try and keep them from killing eachother now and at the same time keep Al Qaeda at bay while all this happens.
So when you say “our job” you don’t actually mean YOUR job right? What you really meant are those that signed up for the services to serve their country and then were thrown into an endless war that no longer has any meaningful justification except to save face for the Presidunce.
Besides that, it isn’t “our job”. It’s the job of the FREE and DEMOCRATIC Iraqi people to control THEIR OWN COUNTRY.
April 25th, 2007 at 12:39 pmBush family values is oil,Anyone ever look at the Iraqi back door to see if oil is leaving the country in unmarked ships?
April 25th, 2007 at 12:44 pmYou know Black Gold(TEXAS TEA).
Maybe they just haven’t got their quota yet.
The war will end when the coffers are full(reserve tanks for Bush investors).
“No one suffers more than their President and I do.â€
what she really should say :
“No one suffers more than the have-less and the have-less-less”
April 25th, 2007 at 12:45 pmSo when you say “our job†you don’t actually mean YOUR job right? What you really meant are those that signed up for the services to serve their country and then were thrown into an endless war that no longer has any meaningful justification except to save face for the Presidunce.
Besides that, it isn’t “our jobâ€. It’s the job of the FREE and DEMOCRATIC Iraqi people to control THEIR OWN COUNTRY.
Comment by Lupeyg2
Glad to see that you care so much about Iraqi people. Let them all die? Nice.
April 25th, 2007 at 12:46 pmi can’t wait for the “if the oil companies don’t get those huge contracts for iraqi oil, the terrorists win”
April 25th, 2007 at 12:46 pmDubya, you don’t get it: You have always been a failure and now you are a miserable failure. Deal with it.
April 25th, 2007 at 12:48 pmA Vet sez:
Chimpy doesn’t need to actually take the oil to benefit from controlling it. As you said, the Bush family business is oil. They have plenty of their own oil to sell, and so can profit in the short run merely from keeping the Iraqi oil under the sand, where it benefits nobody.
April 25th, 2007 at 12:48 pmcommit him.
April 25th, 2007 at 12:51 pm“Glad to see that you care so much about Iraqi people. Let them all die? Nice.”
your concern is 600,000 iraqis too late. [not to mention the more than 1 million displaced iraqis.]
April 25th, 2007 at 12:53 pmmental midget who can’t read and likes to put words in your mouth said:
Glad to see that you care so much about Iraqi people. Let them all die? Nice.
I’m glad to see that you countered what I was saying (sarcasm) and inferred that I wish for all Iraqis to die – essentially twisting and spinning what I said. That certainly is very NeoCon of you. And with that, I see that we have come to that point in our “debate” where you have run out of anything useful to say and are going to begin the personal digs.
Go recharge your talking points so that I can systematically and exhaustively crush them in front of your eyes.
April 25th, 2007 at 12:54 pmThe trolls ability to say truly stupid things, right in keeping with their Dear Leader, never decreases in spite of pesky trifles like “facts” and “reality”
April 25th, 2007 at 12:54 pmthe only thing lamer than dubbie and his crooked-cracker cosa nostra of soft fleshy white guys are the jibbering loons that pop up here to defend them and insult decent people who actually care about their country as much or more than their paychecks and their paybacks.
April 25th, 2007 at 12:54 pmShorter GWB: if you keep pointing out that we’ve lost the war, we’ve lost the war! So don’t point it out!
W as Wile E. Coyote running in mid-air.
Roger^2, you’ve pointed out something important: ‘When the enemy attacks, you attack back.” You’re still looking at this like a battlefield war. It isn’t. It’s an occupation. The enemy has no massed forces, no positions, no support lines, no tanks or planes or robot drones. There’s no front to advance on, no military targets to destroy, no field of battle. Very possibly a lot of these bombings are not even co-ordinated–just small groups acting on their own initiative. And the masterminds behind it all? They’re sitting in the Iraqi Parliament.
What are the Right’s recommendations? “Win.”"Attack the enemy.” Advice that is so ignorant of the conditions on the ground that it’s laughable.
We liberals, progressives and Democrats have a concrete tactical proposal: pull back. Redeploy over the horizon in Kuwait. Give our troops a rest.
Military history is full of campaigns in which generals avoided engagements, steered around opposing forces, to get to more important objectives. Napoleon avoided battles. Patton pulled out of fights.
If, instead, you insist that honor demands to attack the enemy where they’re strongest, where you have no advantage, and just throw men and materiel as if they’re scrip–well then you’re the French General Staff and you’re creating trench warfare in World War I.
If you don’t like that metaphor, then we’re bottled up in Iraq the way Napoleon III was in Sedan in 1870. He hhad managed to take his huge, able and courageous army and lead them into a position where their strength was useless. ottled up in Sedan, Napoleon III (another clueless scion of a more able ancestor) ended up surrendering over 100,000 men along with himself.
Roger, do you know why the French lost the battle of Sedan? Because nobody could say no to the emperor. It was unthinkable. And so the French Empire was destroyed, and the German Empire began–a path which led to Hitler and the Holocaust.
We’re saying no to the emperor, Roger.
April 25th, 2007 at 12:55 pmyour concern is 600,000 iraqis too late. [not to mention the more than 1 million displaced iraqis.]
Comment by pgw
How many Iraqis died at the hands of Saddam? Did you care about them? Bringing a country from a strong dicatatorship takes a little while especially when sectarian hatred is so strong there. Look at how many people died in our civil war. Democracy and peace does not happen overnight. Our continued prescense there will make a much better country in the long run.
April 25th, 2007 at 12:59 pmThe war was wrong and uncalled for back then and it is even more wrong and uncalled for now, Dubya, you stupid dunce.
April 25th, 2007 at 1:00 pmI’m glad to see that you countered what I was saying (sarcasm) and inferred that I wish for all Iraqis to die – essentially twisting and spinning what I said. That certainly is very NeoCon of you. And with that, I see that we have come to that point in our “debate†where you have run out of anything useful to say and are going to begin the personal digs.
Go recharge your talking points so that I can systematically and exhaustively crush them in front of your eyes.
Comment by Lupeyg2
You said: “Iraqi people to control THEIR OWN COUNTRY”
Nothing to spin there, if they all kill themselves who cares it’s not your problem.
April 25th, 2007 at 1:01 pm“Our continued prescense there will make a much better country in the long run.”
unforunately, the iraqis don’t agree with that.
April 25th, 2007 at 1:04 pmYou ask how this compares with nam?
April 25th, 2007 at 1:05 pmIt is well documented that Johnson ordered air strikes and then stopped them allowing CHARLEY TO REBUILD THE TRAIL and use any means of transport to get supplies through while under the watchful eyes of a hands tied command.
Bush is using the same tactics,GIVING SO MUCH ROPE AND THEN YANKING IT TIGHT AROUND THE HANDS OF THE COMMANDERS.
A probable solution to car bombs is to relocate people who are within a minimal distance and destroy all objects within 1 to 2 km from the main
headquarters thus leaving no place to hide the cars or bombs before trouble starts.
Or move the governing body to a safer location.
Put detecting devices on all roads entering cities at proper intervals.
Fire upon anyone not using main highways trying to enter the area
without proper clearance.
Open a desroy zone like korea.
As Jon Stewart put it: “the insurgents are so damn emboldenable!!!”
@*!#?@$*! Shrub, you infantile, poor dolt.
I wonder if trolls are afraid of clowns too.
April 25th, 2007 at 1:06 pmmental midget -
to liken this to our civil war is like comparing George Bush to George Washington. That sh*t just doesn’t fly.
You’re right – democracy and peace doesn’t happen overnight, but it also doesn’t happen by bombing a country into the stone age, setting up a makeshift government, and then occupying this now “free” country. I wish neocons could get that through their head
America is free because we wanted it and fought against our oppressors to obtain it. Iraq is free because and outside power thought it should be and tried to make it so. It’s like Karl Rove trying to fit into Jeff Gannon’s panties…just because he wants them to fit doesn’t make it so.
April 25th, 2007 at 1:07 pmfor the ‘doin it for the iraqis’ talking point crowd, there have been over 1,000,000 iraqis displaced due to the invasion and, since the 2003 invasion, the US has taken in 466 Iraqi refugees.
April 25th, 2007 at 1:10 pmmental midget said:
Nothing to spin there, if they all kill themselves who cares it’s not your problem.
Fine then…maybe you’re right. If they all kill themselves it isn’t my problem. It isn’t my country. And, it isn’t my business. Right now, they have the opportunity to make the country their own free democracy. It’s time for that opportunity to either sink or swim. We will help them, but by providing financial support to rebuild and guidance….NOT BY OCCUPATION.
April 25th, 2007 at 1:11 pmA probable solution to car bombs is to relocate people who are within a minimal distance and destroy all objects within 1 to 2 km from the main
headquarters thus leaving no place to hide the cars or bombs before trouble starts.
Or move the governing body to a safer location.
Put detecting devices on all roads entering cities at proper intervals.
Fire upon anyone not using main highways trying to enter the area
without proper clearance.
Open a desroy zone like korea.
Comment by A Vet
I agree with all those as possible solutions. Those would be much more productive than “all is lost and we should just leave” statements.
April 25th, 2007 at 1:11 pmTENSION RELIEVER
JUST CLICK ON THE “FISTS” TO RELIEVE SOME OF YOUR FRUSTRATION.
http://www.toddalbert.com/files/images/bushsmack.swf
April 25th, 2007 at 1:13 pmBush family values is oil,Anyone ever look at the Iraqi back door to see if oil is leaving the country in unmarked ships?
You know Black Gold(TEXAS TEA).
In truth, that’s this administration’s yardstick for “victory”. They are pushing like hell to get the oil privatization bills ratified in the Iraqi Congress. That will give Big Oil access to those fields and guarantee them 80% of the profits. There is no other reason why they are willing to sustain their commitment US blood and treasure to this unwinnable conflict.
Bush1 gave us “Morning in America by keeping us firmly tied to cheap ME oil (which made the family quite wealthy in the process). Bush2 is presiding over “Evening in America” as he mortgages our future to keep us firmly on an oil-based energy economy.
April 25th, 2007 at 1:14 pmto liken this to our civil war is like comparing George Bush to George Washington. That sh*t just doesn’t fly.
You’re right – democracy and peace doesn’t happen overnight, but it also doesn’t happen by bombing a country into the stone age, setting up a makeshift government, and then occupying this now “free†country. I wish neocons could get that through their head
America is free because we wanted it and fought against our oppressors to obtain it. Iraq is free because and outside power thought it should be and tried to make it so. It’s like Karl Rove trying to fit into Jeff Gannon’s panties…just because he wants them to fit doesn’t make it so.
Comment by Lupeyg2
So you think that we should have allowed Saddam to kill all the Shias and Kurds he wanted to because the country doesn’t fit with democracy?
April 25th, 2007 at 1:14 pmFine then…maybe you’re right. If they all kill themselves it isn’t my problem. It isn’t my country. And, it isn’t my business. Right now, they have the opportunity to make the country their own free democracy. It’s time for that opportunity to either sink or swim. We will help them, but by providing financial support to rebuild and guidance….NOT BY OCCUPATION.
Comment by Lupeyg2
Sink or swim, thanks for finally bringing your real perspective to this.
April 25th, 2007 at 1:16 pm“So you think that we should have allowed Saddam to kill all the Shias and Kurds he wanted”
you mean like in the ’80s? where did saddam get his weapons from then?
April 25th, 2007 at 1:19 pmYou just don’t get it mental midget
The occupation ISN’T WORKING. Your stay the course attitude is getting more and more Iraqis and coalition servicemen killed. We can help them FIRST AND FOREMOST by getting our troops out of there. Again, you’re putting words into my mouth and twisting them…until you learn to debate the facts with facts, you’ll never convince me that your way of thinking is correct, justifiable, or even human.
April 25th, 2007 at 1:21 pmyou mean like in the ’80s? where did saddam get his weapons from then?
Comment by pgw
So we don’t believe in learning from mistakes? You didn’t answer my question, would it have been better to keep Saddam in power where he killed thousands and thousands of Shias and Kurds?
April 25th, 2007 at 1:22 pmGrasping . . . at . . . straws.
April 25th, 2007 at 1:23 pmBe a real brush clearing man and go down with your ship georgie.
mental midget said:
So you think that we should have allowed Saddam to kill all the Shias and Kurds he wanted to because the country doesn’t fit with democracy?
Perhaps if we didn’t intervene they would have saw the oppression and rose up against the dictator, making “freedom” their own possibility.
April 25th, 2007 at 1:23 pmMan, we’d be winning this football game, if the damn scorekeeper didn’t keep counting the other team’s touchdowns.
April 25th, 2007 at 1:25 pmA Vet:
April 25th, 2007 at 1:26 pmwe’ve already blown up objects and built a perimeter. It’s called the Green Zone. And it’s being breached regularly.
Baghdad is a major city. And the enemy is inside the city. They don’t need supply lines from elsewhere. The cars, the explosives (thanks to Al-Qaqaa) and the people are already there.
And ‘proper clearance’? How do you do that in a city of hundreds of thousands of people?
It’s Vietnam, my friend, but it’s Dienbienphu.
The terrorist won the day you took office punk.
Hating the Repuke Mafia daily
April 25th, 2007 at 1:28 pm“How many Iraqis died at the hands of Saddam? Did you care about them?”
You know, Mental Disorder, the lesson most of us have learned is that the only way a stable Iraq can exist is by a strong, maybe ruthless, authoritarian keeping the major factions apart. Hussein was a brutal, totalitarian dictator, no question. But even the anti-Hussein people in Iraq now realize that freedom’s not worth much when your infrastructure is blown to bits and everyone is killing themselves. If you look back to what Hussein did in the 80’s (before DS1), he had built the most progressive secular society in the ME where the Iraqi people had the highest per capita incomes (excluding the mini-state of Kuwait). You really need to start thinking outside the RNC box.
April 25th, 2007 at 1:30 pm“You didn’t answer my question, would it have been better to keep Saddam in power where he killed thousands and thousands of Shias and Kurds?”
that’s got nothing to do with how poorly the bush administration has handled the post-invasion/occupation period, and how he keeps using his patented slogan-as-strategy plan for iraq while american [and iraqi civilian] casualties increase. and concerning “So we don’t believe in learning from mistakes?”—this administration does not learn from mistakes because it is too afraid to admit any mistakes. maybe if they found someone to be their ‘mistake czar’, that would change.
April 25th, 2007 at 1:32 pmPerhaps if we didn’t intervene they would have saw the oppression and rose up against the dictator, making “freedom†their own possibility.
Comment by Lupeyg2
Perhaps, but most likely it would have gone on for a hundred more years will millions dead.
April 25th, 2007 at 1:33 pmBasically, this crowd feels that Democracy and Freedom is not something the people of this world want. Us Americans are always going to fail because people infact prefer dictatorships and s o c i a l i s t regimes over freedom and democracy. If you right, we stand no chance of winning this war and we further stand no chance of continuing the dream of America. I have always believed that the mass majority want freedom and democracy at all costs. I understand that this crowd isn’t really a huge fan of democracy and freedom but I always figured you to be in the minority. Maybe I am wrong.
April 25th, 2007 at 1:33 pmOkay Junior, how ’bout we judge your Iraq strategy simply by the way you and your good friends lied to gain the approval to implement your ’strategy’ ? . . . ya POS
April 25th, 2007 at 1:33 pmI remember a basic rule about lifesaving, which states that under no circumstances should the would-be rescuer allow him or herself to be dragged down by the drowning victim. If this starts to happen, the rescuer is supposed to disengage by any means, even if the end result is the death of the victim.
It’s time for the rescuing U.S. military to disengage from Iraq.
April 25th, 2007 at 1:34 pmthat’s got nothing to do with how poorly the bush administration has handled the post-invasion/occupation period, and how he keeps using his patented slogan-as-strategy plan for iraq while american [and iraqi civilian] casualties increase. and concerning “So we don’t believe in learning from mistakes?â€â€”this administration does not learn from mistakes because it is too afraid to admit any mistakes. maybe if they found someone to be their ‘mistake czar’, that would change.
Comment by pgw
I agree it has been handled poorly from a stategy standpoint, but you still didn’t answer my question.
April 25th, 2007 at 1:34 pmwingnuts and trolls can’t have it both ways:
If we’re fightin em there so we don’t have to fight em here, and that’s working cuz there aint been no terrist attacks since 9-11 (cept for right wing white supremists, who are freedom fighters, dang it).
then the same measuring stick has to be applied over there. If there are more attacks there then we’re not winning. duh.
April 25th, 2007 at 1:35 pmYou know, Mental Disorder, the lesson most of us have learned is that the only way a stable Iraq can exist is by a strong, maybe ruthless, authoritarian keeping the major factions apart. Hussein was a brutal, totalitarian dictator, no question. But even the anti-Hussein people in Iraq now realize that freedom’s not worth much when your infrastructure is blown to bits and everyone is killing themselves. If you look back to what Hussein did in the 80’s (before DS1), he had built the most progressive secular society in the ME where the Iraqi people had the highest per capita incomes (excluding the mini-state of Kuwait). You really need to start thinking outside the RNC box.
Comment by Innocent Bystander
And if they were Shias or Kurds-who cares? He didn’t keep the functions apart, he killed and wiped out thousand upon thousands that weren’t in line with his side.
April 25th, 2007 at 1:37 pm“I understand that this crowd isn’t really a huge fan of democracy and freedom but I always figured you to be in the minority. Maybe I am wrong.”
‘your crowd’ did a great job in iran in the ’50s and chile in the ’70s.
April 25th, 2007 at 1:38 pm“I agree it has been handled poorly from a stategy standpoint, but you still didn’t answer my question.”
i’ll answer it when my time machine gets fixed and we can go back to 2003, where your [yet another] false choice would be relevant.
April 25th, 2007 at 1:42 pmThe Charlie Rose website relaunched today, and his full archive of interviews is available for free. The bush interview is here: http://www.charlierose.com/shows/2007/4/24/1/a-conversation-with-the-president-of-the-united-states
April 25th, 2007 at 1:45 pmi’ll answer it when my time machine gets fixed and we can go back to 2003, where your [yet another] false choice would be relevant.
Comment by pgw
typical
April 25th, 2007 at 1:46 pmDo you know what I love about mental midget – his ability to feign care for the Iraqi people – the ones that died at the hands of Hussein. It doesn’t matter that the ones alive now are in a devastating situation because of us – their wishes that we leave doesn’t matter to him. I didn’t hear a cry to depose Saddam before there was a false WMD case made against him. So, wouldn’t it be George Sr.’s fault that Iraqis died in the late 80’s and 90’s since Saddam was in power and he had a chance to depose him the first time.
You get my Troll Oscar vote.
April 25th, 2007 at 1:49 pmlmd
Here’s a question for you: “Would you rather have Saddam Hussein killing Iraqi people or a never-ending occupation of Iraq killing both Iraqi people and U.S. citizens?”
April 25th, 2007 at 1:52 pm“typical
Comment by liberalism=mental disorder”
i know, right? you pay good money for a time machine, you expect it to last.
April 25th, 2007 at 1:52 pmDo you know what I love about mental midget – his ability to feign care for the Iraqi people – the ones that died at the hands of Hussein. It doesn’t matter that the ones alive now are in a devastating situation because of us – their wishes that we leave doesn’t matter to him. I didn’t hear a cry to depose Saddam before there was a false WMD case made against him. So, wouldn’t it be George Sr.’s fault that Iraqis died in the late 80’s and 90’s since Saddam was in power and he had a chance to depose him the first time.
You get my Troll Oscar vote.
Comment by Lupeyg2
It is also interesting that you seem to care about Iraqis dying now, but at the same time you never cared that Saddam killed many. You also would not care at all if the murders at his hands were continuing. Interesting that in trying to point out a hypocrisy in me you actually exposed your own hypocrisy. Congrats, that takes skill.
April 25th, 2007 at 1:53 pmmental midget – you’re hopeless.
April 25th, 2007 at 1:57 pmNo Rog, it’s not US democracy the rest of the world hates, it’s W-style “democracy”, the one that trashes long-established Consitutional protections against an evil, overbearing Govt that, because it considers the US people terrorist sympathizers, insists on spying on any and all purely domestic communications
Torture and extraordinary rendition are NOT “democracy in action”, they’re the actions of clearly incompetent idiots and cowards
But hey Rog, you just keep telling yourself that the public still backs W and the GOP, and pay no attention to that electoral Little Big Horn both were subjected to on November 7, 2006
And certainly, pay no attention to an even worse political massacre coming in 2008 if the US is still bogged down in the Iraq quagmire
April 25th, 2007 at 1:58 pmHere’s a question for you: “Would you rather have Saddam Hussein killing Iraqi people or a never-ending occupation of Iraq killing both Iraqi people and U.S. citizens?â€
Comment by PatrioticLiberalChristian(PLC)
I would rather have Saddam than a never ending occupation that kills both Iraqis and U.S. citizens. However, I don’t see this as never ending. If executed properly, I think that it could end within 2 years. I’ll take a 6 year occupation over Saddam and his sons killing people for many generations.
April 25th, 2007 at 2:00 pmmental midget – you’re hopeless.
Comment by Lupeyg2
Keep coming back with insults, it’s all you have.
April 25th, 2007 at 2:01 pmIt is also interesting that you seem to care about Iraqis dying now, but at the same time you never cared that Saddam killed many. You also would not care at all if the murders at his hands were continuing. Interesting that in trying to point out a hypocrisy in me you actually exposed your own hypocrisy. Congrats, that takes skill. Comment by liberalism=mental disorder — April 25, 2007 @ 1:53 pm
Which hypocrisy is it again? The one where you cons have no problems with killing a half million Iraqis, but say you care about Iraqi lives?
You know, the most common symptom of children that go ballistic, is their belief that power=destruction=masculinity. It’s a false belief, but hey, it’s a mental illness. When you’re done projecting, child, go see a therapist, and see who’s “mentally-ill”. Ok, little one?
April 25th, 2007 at 2:01 pm“If executed properly, I think that it could end within 2 years.”
and if wishes were ponies…
April 25th, 2007 at 2:06 pmthe track record of this administration almost guarantees it won’t
be “executed properly.” for example, they, literally, did not execute saddam properly.
Which hypocrisy is it again? The one where you cons have no problems with killing a half million Iraqis, but say you care about Iraqi lives?
You know, the most common symptom of children that go ballistic, is their belief that power=destruction=masculinity. It’s a false belief, but hey, it’s a mental illness. When you’re done projecting, child, go see a therapist, and see who’s “mentally-illâ€. Ok, little one?
Comment by ValiantVenusGrewFromUranus
We are not the ones killing all the Iraqis. We are not ones with car bombs and suicide bombs. I do care about Iraq lives, which I doubt you do. However, I understand that there is age old sectarian war going on that if we leave will result in thousands more deaths than if we stay and help secure the country. I understand that a country does not make the transition from evil dictator to democracy overnight. The left’s thought that we are killing all these Iraqis just shows why my name rings true.
April 25th, 2007 at 2:09 pmand if wishes were ponies…
the track record of this administration almost guarantees it won’t
be “executed properly.†for example, they, literally, did not execute saddam properly.
Comment by pgw
Which is why strategy suggestions should be coming from the left instead of get out we lost statements. I agree Bush has handled it poorly from the beginning, but I also see how important success is there.
April 25th, 2007 at 2:10 pm#135 So you believe the middle east doesn’t like Democracy because of the illegal wire tap program in the USA? I think you are giving them more credit then they deserve. Do these people honestly follow US politics that much to even know about the wire tap program? Or were you jsut ranting about how you don’t like democracy?
If you think I would disagree with you about your points, your wrong. I am completely against the wire tap program and all forms of torture. While those things happen, they don’t define democracy in any way shape or form sir (but you know that as well). Maybe you should try a different strategy to persuade me and other Americans that democracy is bad.
April 25th, 2007 at 2:15 pmI would rather have Saddam than a never ending occupation that kills both Iraqis and U.S. citizens.
April 25th, 2007 at 2:16 pmOK, here we agree.
However, I don’t see this as never ending.
Here we disagree. There is nothing in the history of this occupation that
suggests a future “success”.
If executed properly, I think that it could end within 2 years.
It hasn’t been executed properly and the consequences are geometric,
not arithmatic. It could have ended two years ago when Saddam was
out of power. Nothing in strategy or policy is changing.
I’ll take a 6 year occupation over Saddam and his sons killing people for many generations.
Saddam was not killing anyone else once the U.S. and U.N. got involved.
Here we disagree. There is nothing in the history of this occupation that
suggests a future “successâ€.
I believe more troops is a good start. I also believe troops need more latitude with the rules of engagement. They have little chance being handcuffed from the start. As far as history of the occupation, there have been successes-Saddam is out, a government has been elected. Success can happen.
It hasn’t been executed properly and the consequences are geometric,
not arithmatic. It could have ended two years ago when Saddam was
out of power. Nothing in strategy or policy is changing.
Policy has changed, people have been fired new hired, more troops have been sent. A lot has changed.
I’ll take a 6 year occupation over Saddam and his sons killing people for many generations.
Saddam was not killing anyone else once the U.S. and U.N. got involved
By involved what do you mean? Are you saying that since sanctions were set and inspections were occuring he didn’t do any killings?
April 25th, 2007 at 2:23 pmWe are not the ones killing all the Iraqis. We are not ones with car bombs and suicide bombs. Comment by liberalism=mental disorder — April 25, 2007 @ 2:09 pm
We aren’t? So the dropped bombs, gun fire, and other weapons fired from the US military doesn’t kill “the Iraqis”?
I do care about Iraq lives, which I doubt you do. Comment by liberalism=mental disorder — April 25, 2007 @ 2:09 pm
You care about Iraq lives? Since when? Your fellow conservatives on this blog (valiant venus comes to mind) prefers that they all be bombed and get it over with. You really need to coordinate your opinions better – you seem schizoid as republicans right now.
If you care about Iraq lives, why don’t you care about all of the other people around the world that are dying under dictators? Or are only lives that sit on big pools of oil what you’re interested in – for political reasons?
However, I understand that there is age old sectarian war going on that if we leave will result in thousands more deaths than if we stay and help secure the country. Comment by liberalism=mental disorder — April 25, 2007 @ 2:09 pm
How do you think the US would have felt, if the French or English had decided to come/stay and oversee our Civil War? You’re an idiot.
I understand that a country does not make the transition from evil dictator to democracy overnight. Comment by liberalism=mental disorder — April 25, 2007 @ 2:09 pm
Yeah, we know. That’s why we’re all looking forward to the 2008 elections.
The left’s thought that we are killing all these Iraqis just shows why my name rings true. Comment by liberalism=mental disorder — April 25, 2007 @ 2:09 pm
Who said ALL? It was you that claimed that weren’t killing ANY Iraqis. You’re projecting again waco!
April 25th, 2007 at 2:26 pmit seems that anything we do, the terrorists win.
April 25th, 2007 at 2:27 pmI understand that a country does not make the transition from evil dictator to democracy overnight. The left’s thought that we are killing all these Iraqis just shows why my name rings true.
Comment by liberalism=mental disorder
Your name ought to be “do as I say, not as I do;” Reagan armed both sides of the Iran/Iraq war, and conservatives didn’t offer a peep of protest. You guys propped him up for decades, and the blood of the Iraqis is also on your collective hands. Never forget that; history won’t. Oh, I forgot; being a conservative means you’re not to keen on history …
April 25th, 2007 at 2:31 pmI believe more troops is a good start. I also believe troops need more latitude with the rules of engagement. They have little chance being handcuffed from the start. As far as history of the occupation, there have been successes-Saddam is out, a government has been elected. Success can happen.
Do you also believe in the tooth fairy? “More troops” = more American casualties. “More latitude in rules of engagement,”= more innocents killed, which breeds more terrorists. Christ, read a history book.
April 25th, 2007 at 2:34 pmI know all you trolls love this ‘you hate democracy!” tactic, but democracy was not the reason we went in there–it wasn’t even the reason we pretended to go in.
April 25th, 2007 at 2:34 pmBut even if this were what the administration was after, how did they expect to achieve it?
How many fluent speakers of arabic did the Baker-Hamilton commission find in the American Embassy in Baghdad?
Six.
How are we supposed to teach a nation anything with only six people who speak their language?
They sent in, instead of Experts wit experience in nation-building, College Republican campaign workers and the children of conservative pundits.
We peopled their streets with young heavily-armed soldiers who did not know the language, let alone be familliar with the local culture and social organization.
It’s like trying to police Chicago with Mongolians.
And who did we send to Iraq to set up a native force?
Bernard Kerik.
Mobbed-up, corrupt-to-his-eyeballs Bernard Kerik. Who slept all day and took a plane back to the US without even telling his staff.
And we filled their country with Blackwater mercenaries who were answerable to absolutely no one: not subject to the UCMJ, not under the command of the military commander in Iraq, not monitored by anyone.
How did we ‘teach’ them? ‘Guide’ them to democracy?
We filled their country with ingenues and incompetents. We didn’t restore power, or clean water, or hospitals–to say nothing of security.
I’ll agree with John Bolton: If we had toppled Saddam, thrown them a copy of the Federalist Papers, and left after three weeks, Iraq would be farther along the road to democracy than it is today.
The Iraqis are adults. If they needed help in being ‘taught democracy’ they could have looked up the relevant documents online. They needed to be ‘guided’ to democracy by Simone Ledeen and Bernie Kerik?
Some free advice,guys: don’t talk about ‘promoting democracy’. The Bush Adinistration screwed that up worse than they did the military part.
I believe more troops is a good start. I also believe troops need more latitude with the rules of engagement. Comment by liberalism=mental disorder — April 25, 2007 @ 2:23 pm
Too little, too late.
They have little chance being handcuffed from the start. Comment by liberalism=mental disorder — April 25, 2007 @ 2:23 pm
B*llsh*t. What *latitude* do you expect? They’ve been able to murder, torture, raid and destroy anything they wanted – lying jake*ss. What’s wrong, they were being SADDAM enough for you in their behavior? Do you think we should be gassing them as well?
As far as history of the occupation, there have been successes-Saddam is out, a government has been elected. Success can happen. Comment by liberalism=mental disorder — April 25, 2007 @ 2:23 pm
The country is more of a mess now, than before Saddam was removed, election or no election. There is more religious and minority persecution now, as well as persecution of women. We know have an active Al Qaeda movement there, where there wasn’t one before. What successes are there again? Oh yeah, we now control the oil. You’re great proof that Conservatism is a mental illness.
It hasn’t been executed properly and the consequences are geometric, not arithmatic. It could have ended two years ago when Saddam was out of power. Nothing in strategy or policy is changing. Comment by liberalism=mental disorder — April 25, 2007 @ 2:23 pm
You’re also r*t*rded. Geometric is an arithmetic term – idiot.
Policy has changed, people have been fired new hired, more troops have been sent. A lot has changed. Comment by liberalism=mental disorder — April 25, 2007 @ 2:23 pm
B*llsh*t. This is the 6th surge, and the same kind of *sslickers are in charge, that have always been in charge.
I’ll take a 6 year occupation over Saddam and his sons killing people for many generations. Comment by liberalism=mental disorder — April 25, 2007 @ 2:23 pm
So you prefer to get the killing all over with in 4 years, instead of generationally? You do realize that before we invaded, Iraq was the only secular country in the middle east – right? You also realize that when compared to Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, in general Saddam was no worse than them, and in many ways better – right?
Saddam was not killing anyone else once the U.S. and U.N. got involved Comment by liberalism=mental disorder — April 25, 2007 @ 2:23 pm
No, instead, we’re the ones now killing. Nice work.
By involved what do you mean? Are you saying that since sanctions were set and inspections were occuring he didn’t do any killings? Comment by liberalism=mental disorder — April 25, 2007 @ 2:23 pm
Are you saying that if we hadn’t invaded, Saddam would have killed the now estimated 600,000 dead?
I was no fan of Saddam, but just think. If Ronald RAYGUN and the rest of the Bush’cos hadn’t sold him the advanced weaponry they did, he wouldn’t have been able to kill and destroy so many of his own people.
Conservatism is a mental disorder.
April 25th, 2007 at 2:34 pm“I’ll take a 6 year occupation over Saddam and his sons killing people for many generations.”
Aided and abetted every step of the way by republicans …
April 25th, 2007 at 2:37 pmSo, George Bush doesn’t want to have “success” measured by one of the obviously key measures as to how successful his Iraq strategy is. It’s kinda like saying that the win-loss record of a baseball team is no measure of how successful their season is.
April 25th, 2007 at 3:04 pm#145 I personally care about all the people of the world. I think it is ashame that we are not fighting for the freedom and Democracy every person in every country deserves. Places like Darfur need our intervention yesterday. Those situations upset me much more then Iraq. At least in Iraq we put an effort towards the fight for freedom and democracy. We do nothing in Iran, North Korea, Darfur, plus many many other countries around the globe while millions suffer under dictators and S o c i a l i s t regimes. Personally, the people of Iraq should be the only concern at this point in the Iraq war. We should only do and plan what will provide the very best chance for democracy, freedom, and peace in that country. If you can prove to me that pulling out our troops will somehow create a Democracy and not a terrorist state, I am all ears. Folks like me fight and argue that we should stay in Iraq because we feel it provides the very best chance for the Iraqi people in the future.
I will back whatever plan creates the best chance for the Iraqi’s to gain the Democracy and freedom they deserve. I don’t care if its a Dem plan or a Repug plan. Bush has done a horrible job and he has mismanaged this war from the start. It is ashame that currently he is the only one that has even laid out a plan that stands any chance of providing the Iraqi people a chance at democracy. The Dem leadership have yet to produce such a plan which is sad since I would trust them much more then Bush at this point. Currently, they appear to be acting very selfish as their “plan” only focus’ on what is best for America. They don’t seem to care that America created this mess as they don’t seem to have much interest in fixing it. Furthermore, not even the Dems can honestly think that if American troops leave, it would create the best chance for democracy in Iraq.
I udnerstand their motives. Leaving Iraq is probably in the best interest of the USA today. It is debatable if leaving is actually bad for our future but that is a different arguement. Either way, leaving now is in no one in the best interest of the Iraq people. Not even the Dems can believe that.
We have to accept that if we leave, all the progress they have currently made is gone. All women’s rights would stop. The schools we built them would stop. The terrorist would take over. In the end, the Iraqi’s would have no chance at democracy and freedom. I am currently not prepared to accept that decision. To me, that choice would be yet one more immoral action by the USA ( the first immoral action was going to war with Iraq in the first place). Maybe leaving Iraq and dooming its people is ok with you. I understand that to some extent as it is in the best interest of the USA. It is just in the worst possible interest of the Iraqi’s.
April 25th, 2007 at 3:07 pmWe aren’t? So the dropped bombs, gun fire, and other weapons fired from the US military doesn’t kill “the Iraqis�
Yes we have killed Iraqis. Allow me to explain, you said that we have killed half a million Iraqis. We both know that is not true, we have not killed the vast majority. They are done by car bombs and suicide bombs.
You care about Iraq lives? Since when? Your fellow conservatives on this blog (valiant venus comes to mind) prefers that they all be bombed and get it over with. You really need to coordinate your opinions better – you seem schizoid as republicans right now.
If you care about Iraq lives, why don’t you care about all of the other people around the world that are dying under dictators? Or are only lives that sit on big pools of oil what you’re interested in – for political reasons?
I cannot speak for other posters here. So I don’t understand your point. As for caring about places ran by other dictators, I certainly do care about the people there. With that being said, we cannot handle every situation at the same time. We cannot handle it all at once.
How do you think the US would have felt, if the French or English had decided to come/stay and oversee our Civil War? You’re an idiot.
Well your comparison there falls quite a bit short of making sense. The Iraqi people are free under Saddam because of us, it is our responsibilty to them to try and control the situation the best we can. The French and English had nothing to do with our civil war. You don’t make any sense.
Who said ALL? It was you that claimed that weren’t killing ANY Iraqis. You’re projecting again waco!
Actually you said: “The one where you cons have no problems with killing a half million Iraqis” We “cons’ have not killed half a million Iraqis. I apologize if my statement was not clear. I know that we have killed Iraqis, but no where near the majority. And again with the projecting comment? Why is stating my opinion projecting? You have a hard time making sense.
April 25th, 2007 at 3:21 pmMaybe the reason you can’t convince Americans that the war in Iraq is worthwhile is because it’s NOT! IDIOT!!!!!!
April 25th, 2007 at 3:22 pm“I understand that to some extent as it is in the best interest of the USA. It is just in the worst possible interest of the Iraqi’s.”
the iraqis disagree with you.
April 25th, 2007 at 3:24 pmp.s.–speaking of “the best interest of the USA”, remember the democracy we exported in the form of the shah and pinochet? how bout central america in the ’80s? where’d that john negroponte go to?
Too little, too late.
I disagree, it’s never too late to rethink plans.
B*llsh*t. What *latitude* do you expect? They’ve been able to murder, torture, raid and destroy anything they wanted – lying jake*ss. What’s wrong, they were being SADDAM enough for you in their behavior? Do you think we should be gassing them as well?
Your ignorance is quite appalling. They have rules of engagement that they must follow but the people trying to kill them don’t care about. There have been a few wackos go to far, but to say it is happening all the time is negligent.
The country is more of a mess now, than before Saddam was removed, election or no election. There is more religious and minority persecution now, as well as persecution of women. We know have an active Al Qaeda movement there, where there wasn’t one before. What successes are there again? Oh yeah, we now control the oil. You’re great proof that Conservatism is a mental illness.
So you are for dictators that gas and kill it’s own citizens. As for the mental illness line, can’t you at least be original?
So you prefer to get the killing all over with in 4 years, instead of generationally? You do realize that before we invaded, Iraq was the only secular country in the middle east – right? You also realize that when compared to Pakistan or Saudi Arabia, in general Saddam was no worse than them, and in many ways better – right?
When in 4 years the deaths are 1/1000 of what they would be in a generation yes. I do know that Saudi and Pakistan have their problems, but to compare them to what Saddam has done is pittiful. You have no credibility-not that your previous comments gave you any.
No, instead, we’re the ones now killing. Nice work.
Again, we are not the ones doing most of the killing. We are working on fixing the situation, I guess you would have been okay with Saddam continuing to kill with no end in sight?
Are you saying that if we hadn’t invaded, Saddam would have killed the now estimated 600,000 dead?
Maybe not in the same time frame-but overall the number of deaths from us going there will pale in comparison to what would have been handed out under Saddam’s reign. You have heard of the mass graves right?
April 25th, 2007 at 3:30 pmI declare that poster ValiantVenusGrewFromUranus to be the is the poster child for Liberalism=Mental Disorder. 1000 years of therapy could not help this one. Lock him/her up complete with the rubber room and straight jacket.
April 25th, 2007 at 3:32 pmWell mental disorder it is because you are a total moron, such a moron that you will and can never understand what a moron you are, reading your posts are just sick logic, you are a subhuman piece of scum, you only post sick repuke talking points and avoid all logic or facts, and that is why people attack you, because you deserve it.
Now go hump your blowup sex doll sitting next to you and get off the keyboard, you are embarassing yourself enough here today.
Hating scum like mental disease daily
April 25th, 2007 at 4:07 pmBased upon my “flowers and candy” “strategy”,
the insurgents and Iraqi people have ALSO WON.
I fvcked up BAD.
But don’t worry, that MONICA GOODLING’S gonna set EVERYTHING good…
Heh heh heh….
April 25th, 2007 at 4:12 pmMr. Bush
MURDEROUS WAR CRIMINAL
COWARDLY TRAITOR TO THE USA (TM-BushCrimeCo)
Hopefully, it will be become more difficult every single day you are in office.
Comment by Zooey #18
…and out of office…
…may his days be filled with pain and his nights tragedy and trauma…
…may he (THEY) NEVER know peace…
…and may his (THEIR) reservation(s) in hell…
…be non-refundable…
April 25th, 2007 at 4:14 pmConservatism is a mental disorder.
Comment by ValiantVenusGrewFromUranus #15
…conned’self-servingism…
…is TREASON!
April 25th, 2007 at 4:19 pmBUSH: Even though all violence needs to be abhorred — nevertheless, there is, you know, there’s certain violence, levels of violence that people say, well, gosh, I can go about my life, I’ve got…
…God…
…if you’re listening…
April 25th, 2007 at 4:20 pmDid someone drop this man on his head as a baby?
April 25th, 2007 at 4:49 pmWell mental disorder it is because you are a total moron, such a moron that you will and can never understand what a moron you are, reading your posts are just sick logic, you are a subhuman piece of scum, you only post sick repuke talking points and avoid all logic or facts, and that is why people attack you, because you deserve it.
Now go hump your blowup sex doll sitting next to you and get off the keyboard, you are embarassing yourself enough here today.
Hating scum like mental disease daily
Comment by Buck Fush
Wow, I always heard that the left are the civilized ones.
April 25th, 2007 at 4:52 pmConservatism is a mental disorder.
Comment by ValiantVenusGrewFromUranus #15
…conned’self-servingism…
…is TREASON!
Comment by big papa
Why do you make all the extra lines with … before them, it is very annoying to read?
April 25th, 2007 at 4:53 pmIt’s pretty clear to me that we will draw down the troop level when and only when the oil contracts are locked down in the way the Bush family deems acceptable, when the disgustingly huge and pretentious american embassy is complete, when the military bases for our troops are all finished, when Haliburton is safely settled in Dubai, and when the ‘proper’ government is settled in as well.
April 25th, 2007 at 4:59 pmKeep thumbing yer nose Dumbya, we’re waiting for you…
Kucinich: ‘Impeachment may well be the only remedy which remains to stop a war of aggression against Iran’
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Kucinich_Impeachment_may_well_be_only_0315.html
April 25th, 2007 at 5:19 pm
“#
it seems that anything we do, the terrorists win.
Comment by pete — April 25, 2007 @ 2:27 pm”
Kind of makes you wonder about that corporate bin-Ladin/Bush relationship at Carlyle Group. “You guys keep us quagmired in Iraq while we steal the US Treasury blind. If they try to leave, we’ll accuse them of treason over here. ” We ought to have the US completely cleaned out in 15 years or so.
April 25th, 2007 at 5:39 pmmental midget; I see that you are not in any hurry to get your ass in the army in order to save the Iraqis from themselves.
April 25th, 2007 at 6:32 pmThe “terrorists” are in truth LIBERATION FIGHTERS trying to free their country from foreign occupation. I pray they succeed.
April 25th, 2007 at 6:35 pmDid the interviewer actually give His Travesty a pass on his answer? How is the war worthwhile, Mr. President? Mr. President, can you tell us precisely why you think our continued occupation of Iraq is beneficial to America? How does it strengthen America’s position at home and abroad?
Ask the questions, then let his answers confirm that he has no clue. This a Yale graduate? Bush’s tutorial fees must have been astronomical, or did he simply pay a lot for cheat sheets? This is your standard cardboard cutout Republican stooge. One positive aspect is that Bush has actually set the standard for the GOP’s self destruct in 08.
April 25th, 2007 at 7:27 pmQuaark…Uncle Ho, Uncle Ho… Quaarkk…Dick laughed when they read that to him….Quaark….
April 25th, 2007 at 9:17 pmhasn’t America had enough of being blackmailed by this sadistic group of con-people?
April 25th, 2007 at 9:49 pmReminds me of the Simpsons quote:
“Oh, everything looks bad if you remember it.”
April 26th, 2007 at 9:17 am…..and this botched lobotomy patient is the President of the USA… my God its still so hard to believe that he got a second term
April 26th, 2007 at 11:03 amHey George W Stupid!
It’s your f###### incompetence and the blatant stupidity of all your moronic, s###-for-brains, coward supporters that emboldens the enemy!
Suck my click!
April 26th, 2007 at 12:03 pm