Hundreds protest Cheney at BYU.
Hundreds protest Cheney at BYU.
Roughly 300 demonstrators gathered today in conservative Provo, Utah, to protest a commencement speech by Vice President Cheney at Brigham Young University:
Dan Kennelly, a Korean War veteran from Sandy, acknowledged that he and other protesters were outnumbered in Utah County.
“But we’re going to try,” he said. “If someone doesn’t want to listen, that’s fine, but we’ll try.” BYU student and war dissenter Diana Smith said she’s used to being a minority voice at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints school, “but while many may disagree, it is usually respectful,” she said.
That was the general tenor of the streetside – though as in many protests, a few middle fingers were let loose by angry drivers and indignant protesters. One truck driver screamed to the protesters “you’re all traitors!” while several others in this largely Mormon town opted for the more subtle “I’ll be praying for you!”
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For BYU to give this draft-dodging cowardly, evil, corrupt war criminal an honorary degree and speak at their commencement is akin to awarding the Nobel Peace Prize to Adolf Hitler.
April 26th, 2007 at 10:45 pmPraying for you? Arrogant jerks. I’m always amazed at how often those who like to proclaim their Christianity the loudest seem to forget what Jesus said: Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God. I welcome any prayers that come my way, but I think my response would be along the lines of “and I will pray that your eyes are opened.”
April 26th, 2007 at 10:53 pm#2 Cafeteria Christians prefer the Old Testament.
April 26th, 2007 at 10:57 pmAh yes, Utah, where men are men, the sheep are scared, and there’s no such thing as virgin wool. Of course “Big Dick” would be welcome there.
Just out of curiosity, why are the people least likely to be hit by a terrorist attack the ones most convinced the rest of us are out to get them?
April 26th, 2007 at 10:58 pmdick cheney and karl rove are two of the darkest forces on the planet… any organization, university or otherwise, that chooses to associate itself with either one, simply demonstrates an appalling lack of wisdom and perspective on what they have both done to damage the very foundations of the republic they claim to serve… mormons are, as a whole, very ethical people, but they, byu, and the state of utah are completely off the rails with this one…
And, yes, I DO take it personally
April 26th, 2007 at 11:00 pmAh, yes – the old ‘eye for an eye’ Old Testament God – he really is more their kind of God, isn’t he?
April 26th, 2007 at 11:01 pmThis is why I am so sick of self-righteous Christians who flaunt their fake religiosity every chance they get. Maybe we should send them to Iraq if this is such a just war.
April 26th, 2007 at 11:01 pmActually, this protest says something really big (even though it was relatively small). Utah traditionally votes 21-1 in favor of Repubs.
Baby steps folks, baby steps.
April 26th, 2007 at 11:04 pm#6 Only when it comes to the treatment of others. They find Jesus when they want mercy for themselves.
April 26th, 2007 at 11:04 pmI don’t think that I’ll ever understand people, that on the one hand consider themselves religious while simultaneously condoning extreme acts of violence. Could it be that the right hand really doesn’t know what the left is doing, or does such a degree of self-righteousness actually give one permission to be deliberately cruel?
Peace!
April 26th, 2007 at 11:08 pmIs someone supposed to be impressed by having 5 deferrment Cheney posing as a “patriot” and giving anyone a speech?
April 26th, 2007 at 11:09 pmCheney is more like the pharisees than the followers.
April 26th, 2007 at 11:11 pm#12 More like the snake in the Garden.
April 26th, 2007 at 11:16 pmWow the Mitt Romney backers love Cheney. Nice going Dick, stick it to one of your front runners. Nothing could be as damning to a candidate as being close to you and your 10% approval rating.
Keep up the good work.
April 26th, 2007 at 11:21 pmYou know Dick Cheney makes Snidely Whiplash seem honest.
What a foul spot of usuric, money and war-mongering, narcisistic, incestuous slime is he.
Just watched “Smartest Guys is the Room” again. How the hell did he and Bush get re-elected after the political shinagans they pulled in California in helping Enron.
They both need a damned good impeaching.
April 26th, 2007 at 11:26 pmRomney will have a movie this summer to deal with about the mormon massacare of Arkansas wagon trainers. Mabey that’s what he meant about hunting varments. Oh and Orin Hatch is mad about it too.
April 26th, 2007 at 11:28 pm10. Comment by jerzen -
It’s called Humanism. There’s a large faction of the “Christian” community that have never read the bible or understand its teachings. They go to Church and get parroted an interpretation of the Bible. Well, there are many different interpretations and all based on humanistic dogma. First, Christianity is based on the New Testament only. The Old Testament would be used for history and empirical relations only, for Gods way in the Old Testament gave way to Jesus teaching of love. There’s no marrying of the two books. Those churches that do take some from one book and some from another are using the teachings for humanistic reasons and miss the point of the New Testament.
April 26th, 2007 at 11:40 pmCURSE L’il Dick…
…and his lineage…
April 26th, 2007 at 11:40 pmOFF TOPIC BUT…
…WE MUST TAKE BACK THE MEDIA!
…MSNBC’s political debate analysts were so ostensibly PRO-Hillary, “centrist”, ESTABLISHMENT…
…anyone who didn’t actually SEE the debate…
…would’ve thought the OTHER Dem candidates were potted plants and fumble-fu*ks…
…ESPECIALLY Obama…
…the WHITE MAN’s media went outof its usually racist way…
…to make Obama the night’s big LOSER and Hillary the night’s big WINNER…
…using none other than that stalwart left wing base teamof:
Bob Shrum and Pat Buchanan…
April 26th, 2007 at 11:41 pm#8, I agree. When conservative Mormons in Utah are protesting Republicans….
April 26th, 2007 at 11:42 pmI know an evangelican freak and he likes to preach. He preaches that we are at a war with Satan and that we need to fight to the death, killing as many “evil” people that he can. This means massive deaths for victory. So just who is this enemy? He says all “arabs” and all “asians”. Or better yet, Anyone who is not a born again freak. It is actually scary to listen to him and know that he actually believes that he is doing “Gods” work.
April 26th, 2007 at 11:42 pmWant to learn more about the unseemly interest of Cheney and Bush in Somalia? Wonder what all the recent fighting in Somalia is about? I give you a little hint: It’s the same stuff that C & B are trying to steal from the Iraqis. Do a google or clusty search for “Conoco Somalia Ltd” … The first hit will give you plenty of info…
Cheers.
April 26th, 2007 at 11:54 pmJust goes to show that even an interesting explanation offers little more that a poor excuse to those who blindly follow. I am not familiar with this “human…….ism” that you speak, but it sounds like a BIG problem. Thanks for responding.
Peace!
April 27th, 2007 at 12:01 amCheney is a mass-murderer and yet people feel they have to pray for those protesting Cheney?
This world is nucking futs!
April 27th, 2007 at 12:02 am#21 is a reply to #17’s reponse to #10.
Thank You!
April 27th, 2007 at 12:05 amComment by jerzen —
Blindly follow is the key. Simply stated these people can be very fu@king dangerous.
April 27th, 2007 at 12:23 ampowcat quit referencing new testament shit, it’s the old book they like…
April 27th, 2007 at 12:25 amIt’s called Humanism. There’s a large faction of the “Christian†community that have never read the bible or understand its teachings. They go to Church and get parroted an interpretation of the Bible. Well, there are many different interpretations and all based on humanistic dogma. First, Christianity is based on the New Testament only. The Old Testament would be used for history and empirical relations only, for Gods way in the Old Testament gave way to Jesus teaching of love. There’s no marrying of the two books. Those churches that do take some from one book and some from another are using the teachings for humanistic reasons and miss the point of the New Testament.
Comment by JTitor — April 26, 2007 @ 11:40 pm
Whoa, that made sense before I sobered up. Not bad though eh?
April 27th, 2007 at 12:57 ampowcat quit referencing new testament shit, it’s the old book they like…
Comment by ForTruth — April 27, 2007 @ 12:25 am
LMAO!!!
April 27th, 2007 at 1:03 amWell, at least some of them are speaking out at the evil bast*rd. Oh, and the invisible dude that you think is out there somewhere, it doesn’t exist, give it up, smart’n up, it’s not gonna help you. How’s those golden plates working for you?
Hating the Repuke Mafia daily
April 27th, 2007 at 1:10 amAh yes, Utah, where men are men, the sheep are scared, and there’s no such thing as virgin wool. Of course “Big Dick†would be welcome there.
Ask me how I know! ;)
April 27th, 2007 at 1:10 amWell, at least some of them are speaking out at the evil bast*rd. Oh, and the invisible dude that you think is out there somewhere, it doesn’t exist, give it up, smart’n up, it’s not gonna help you. How’s those golden plates working for you?
April 27th, 2007 at 1:18 am(Man I’m screwed if I’m wrong about this one!)
Or imagine being able to be magically whisked away to…….Utah! “Hi… I’m in.. Utah..”
April 27th, 2007 at 1:36 amI thought Cheney was only welcomed at prestigious institutions like Regent and Liberty Universities.
April 27th, 2007 at 1:41 amMr. Cheney…..when you die I will explode with glee.
April 27th, 2007 at 2:02 amI’m glad they protested.
April 27th, 2007 at 2:03 amIF TP DOES NOT DO AN ARTICLE ON IMPEACHING CHENEY THEN YOU ARE COMPLICIT IN THE MEDIA BLACKOUT ………
April 27th, 2007 at 5:12 amIF TP DOES NOT DO AN ARTICLE ON IMPEACHING CHENEY THEN YOU ARE COMPLICIT IN THE MEDIA BLACKOUT ………
Comment by Tobey Tall — April 27, 2007 @ 5:12 am
All caps. To Be Tall is getting pissed.
April 27th, 2007 at 8:57 amOne truck driver screamed to the protesters “you’re all traitors!â€
Do these Fox Noise mouth breathers know anything about our Constitutional Rights or do they just think they only apply to those who support these warmongers?
April 27th, 2007 at 9:15 am300 aint sh*t! Nice try, libs!~
April 27th, 2007 at 9:18 ami’m sure cheney will blast democrats and the people as traitors, then go home to watch mrs. cheney knit booties for the little one that’s due.
April 27th, 2007 at 9:33 amCheney was given a loving and thunderous reception from 20,000 cheering fans/graduates at BYU. No doubt it would have been much more if the Marriott center were larger. 100 sadsacks doth not a protest make! Hilarious, though.
Yahoo!! I knew my BYU would come through. Hurrah for Cheney as well. He has more integrity and intelligence in his little finger than all of you sorry little men combined, unfortunately.
Best wishes, though, you may yet learn that it is better to kill the headchoppers before they kill you!
April 27th, 2007 at 9:49 amHow much you wanna bet that truck driver who screamed “traitors!” to the brave protesters supported impeachment of Clinton trying to hide his cheating on his wife?
April 27th, 2007 at 9:50 am#40
Ya, that was a sad display, to see the sheep obey the master. But cut the crap man. BYU college republicans were royally pissed off yesterday, and a couple of weeks ago. In fact, the University police had to watch you guys, and restrain you from coming within 500 yards of the Dems.
Also, the fact that you think that Cheney has integrity, is also really sad. At least some republicans like him because he is a ruthless, greedy, lier, but you sir are plain ignorant.
And as far as the head choppers go, people like you and Cheney are helping bin laden produce more of them.
April 27th, 2007 at 10:59 amOf course Cheney was given a thunderous reception. The state of Utah is a living and breathing theocracy- they do what their spiritual leaders tell them to do. As a former Utahn, a former conservative, and a former Mormon, I can tell you from personal experience that most Mormons are ethical and good people. They are also as naive about the world as a group of people can be. Idealists to the bone, they reject any opinion or fact that disagrees with their core beliefs- even if it’s right in front of their face. Mormons are taught from the cradle to respect and honor their spiritual leaders above all else- I’m not sure why this translates to political leaders, but it does. Because Dick Cheney is a Republican, he must be good. The more the world disparages him, the more Mormons will love him- wasn’t their own leader – Joseph Smith- maligned and hated by the masses? He was persecuted and murdered by a soulless angry mob. Most Mormons refuse to even acknowledge that there are two sides to that story. I’m one of the few that did, and that’s why I’m no longer a true believer.
April 27th, 2007 at 11:15 amMormons will always trust their leaders and give them the benefit of the doubt in every case.
Didn’te hear about BYU Republicans being mad about anything yesterday, so I question your information.
I’m not a man. But Dick Cheney is, and he’s helping to save your sorry, whining, disagreeable back side. Along with the troops, who coincidentally, also have more integrity and intelligence than the lot of you combined.
Pity that you don’t understand the real threat of Islamic terrorism.
April 27th, 2007 at 11:19 am#43: Last time I checked Utah was still part of the U.S. ~ they have elections and everything. (Maybe you didn’t realize that Salt Lake City has not had a republican mayor for decades.) Anyway, recheck your definition of theocracy.
And when all else fails ~ bash mormons. In fact, mormons are taught to respect and honor TRUTH above all else. Mormons as a whole are a highly educated people and have made great contributions to society.
Perhaps you should consider the fact that your own personal problems with faith – of lack therof – are of no particular interest and cannot elevate the debate.
April 27th, 2007 at 12:07 pmWarm welcome for Cheney
20,000 cheer him repeatedly; he hails Y. accomplishments
By Tad Walch
Deseret Morning News
PROVO — A month of controversy over the decision to invite Vice President Dick Cheney to speak at Brigham Young University’s commencement ended Thursday with more than 20,000 BYU graduates and their families, along with faculty and staff, soaking Cheney in applause.
April 27th, 2007 at 12:16 pmPraying for you? Arrogant jerks. I’m always amazed at how often those who like to proclaim their Christianity the loudest seem to forget what Jesus said: Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God. I welcome any prayers that come my way, but I think my response would be along the lines of “and I will pray that your eyes are opened.â€
Comment by powkat
AMEN SISTER!
#3, JPark and #6, Powkat
The Old Testament, you say? The vengeful God has another side, but naturally, His words are not welcome:
Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, says the Lord God, and not rather that they should turn from their ways and live? – Ezekiel 18:23
Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. – Isaiah 1:18
April 27th, 2007 at 1:01 pmRepeat…Question to Hillary, Barack and John:
“If you don’t support Dennis Kucinich’s articles of impeachment against Dick Cheney for lying us into the Iraq War thats killed 700,000+ please name a circumstance or situation that’d compel you to defend the Constitution”
April 27th, 2007 at 2:31 pmTo Larry from C ~ Are you living on planet earth? Do you think you can just make up your own reality?
You can have your own opinion, but you can’t have you own facts.
April 27th, 2007 at 2:52 pm#45
My reference to Utah being a theocracy revolves around the willingness of the Church as a whole to toe the conservative line and give passes to Republican excess and ineptitude. Without a doubt, there is no other geographical region of the U.S. where a religious body has as much control over politics as does the LDS church. A theocracy in the normal sense? nope- but a theocracy nonetheless.
And when all else fails ~ bash mormons. In fact, mormons are taught to respect and honor TRUTH above all else. Mormons as a whole are a highly educated people and have made great contributions to society.
Why do Mormons knee-jerk to the “poor, persecuted” martyr any time anyone questions them? Every time I have ever been even the slightest bit critical, I get a shotgun load of anger and insult- usually regarding my “faith, or lack thereof”, as well as describing it as a “personal problem” like I’m tortured by it or something. Sorry to disappoint you, but I don’t give it a second thought. I only brought it into the debate to bolster my credibility. I’ve been on both sides of the Mormon/non-Mormon, Republican/Democrat, Conservative/Liberal and Utahn/former-Utahn fence… that makes me uniquely qualified to make an observation on this issue.
I agree- There are many intelligent and educated Mormons, I never questioned that. My best friends are staunch LDS members. But it’s my opinion that your faith blinds you to simple realities. Most of Utah (primarily Mormons) support Bush without question. You yourself came to this liberal blog to defend the honor and integrity of a proven liar. You sing his praises while at the same time, refuse to acknowledge that it’s even possible that this inept, corrupt, bumbling administration has made a single mistake in the last 6 years. You refuse to hold them accountable for their actions.
April 27th, 2007 at 3:13 pmHow can such intelligent and honorable people be so blind to fact and willing to excuse the sad performance of their own leaders? I surely don’t understand it.
At least 100 good sons and daughters of Helaman had the wherewithal and courage to stand up and speak truth to power in this protest. The rest of you should take some notes…
Dennis Kucinich’s Dept. of Peace initiative alone makes his Presidency more valuable and interesting then all his competitors combined….
from kucinich.us:
We must change the metaphor of our society from one of war to one of peace. The Department of Defense now requires in excess of $400 billion for its activities. A Department of Peace can be an effective counterbalance, redirecting our national energies towards nonviolent intervention, mediation, and conflict resolution on all matters of human security.
…We have a problem with violence in our own society, and we need to look at it and address it in a structured way. Domestically, the Department of Peace would address violence in the home, spousal abuse, child abuse, gangs, and police-community relations conflicts, and would work with individuals and groups to achieve changes in attitudes that examine the mythologies of cherished world views, such as “violence is inevitable” or “war is inevitable.” Thus, it will help with the discovery of new selves and new paths toward peaceful consensus.
….Congressman Kucinich is the 2003 recipient of the Gandhi Peace Award. Former recipients include Eleanor Roosevelt, Cesar Chavez, A.J. Muste, Dr. Linus Pauling, Dorothy Day, Sen. Wayne Morse and Marian Wright Edelman.
April 27th, 2007 at 3:15 pmDomestically, the Department of Peace would address violence in the home, spousal abuse, child abuse, gangs, and police-community relations conflicts, and would work with individuals and groups to achieve changes in attitudes that examine the mythologies of cherished world views, such as “violence is inevitable†or “war is inevitable.†Thus, it will help with the discovery of new selves and new paths toward peaceful consensus.
Comment by Larry from C — April 27, 2007 @ 3:15 pm
“…Cream colored ponies and crisp apple streudels
Doorbells and sleigh bells and schnitzel with noodles
Wild geese that fly with the moon on their wings
These are a few of my favorite things”
“If you aren’t a liberal at 20, you don’t have a heart. If you’re still a liberal at 40, you don’t have a brain.”
I’d like to hide and watch Kucinich discuss his view with a few gang members.
April 27th, 2007 at 4:07 pmI agree. Think Progress MUST do a segment (or several) on the evidence against Cheney. I am a Christian and am appalled that Jesus words against so many of the “elect” being deceived by pure evil is coming to pass.
Jesus called himself The Truth and for so many Christians to be taken in by sweet sounding lies that mean the horrific death of millions of people including Americans is beyond my comprehension.
Pray for the truth to be spoken and known by all.
April 27th, 2007 at 4:34 pm#52…“If you aren’t a liberal at 20, you don’t have a heart. If you’re still a liberal at 40, you don’t have a brain.â€
Let me help you a bit.
Dennis Kucinich’s Dept. of Peace is almost certainly inspired from his association with Dr. John Hagelin, world famous Quantum Physicist, former Natural Law Presidential Candidate and President of the Peace Government. Dr. John Hagelin is flat out the most intelligent man to EVER run for President.
from lightstreamers.com…
Dr. John Hagelin is widely respected on Capitol Hill for his visionary leadership, including his efforts to promote a peaceful solution to war and terrorism. For over 20 years, the world-renowned quantum physicist has brought his message of a scientifically proven approach for resolving conflict to government leaders in Washington, D.C., and has always received a polite response—but with little action. Now, suddenly, after September 11 and with the fear of terrorist reprisals following the U.S. military campaign in Afghanistan, U.S. Congressional leaders are responding very differently to Dr. Hagelin’s message.
Dr. John Hagelin’s comprehensive proposal to prevent terrorism through a peaceful, scientifically validated approach is being welcomed with remarkable enthusiasm and with growing bipartisan support to put the plan into place.
The innovative proposal, validated by more than 50 replications and 19 studies published in leading peer-reviewed scientific journals, targets the acute ethnic, political, and religious tensions that fuel violence, terrorism, and social conflict.
“It is a direct technological application of the most advanced discoveries in the fields of quantum mechanics, neuroscience, and human consciousness, and is supported by hundreds of scientists who have examined the technology and its associated research,†Dr. Hagelin said.
Yes, I’m an independent and between the ages of 20-40. I hope to retain an open mind to all issues well into my later years. I don’t subscribe to any ideology other than listen, read and learn.
April 27th, 2007 at 4:55 pmHow nice!
I suppose half of the students at BYU are related to the Osmonds.
I’m sure Cheney is a big fan of the Osmond family.
No doubt his favorite song is: ‘ONE BAD APPLE.’
John
April 27th, 2007 at 5:02 pm#50 What control does the LDS church have over politics in Utah??? The church doesn’t dictate to anyone how to think, feel or vote. And you, being a former mormon KNOW this to be true. Is it a crime for like minded people to vote the same way? Your implication is that Utah mormon conservatives are just a bunch of sheep who cannot think for themselves.
Well, let’s look at it the other way. I live in Portland, OR and almost everyone here votes the socialist line. I doubt if you think they are all of bunch of sheep.
In your heart you Bush and Cheney are not really liars and that they have honestly done the best they can for America. The intelligence from EVERY government showed Saddam was developing WMD. President Clinton on down ~ just name anyone, even the corrupt UN, were convinced. There was no lying, and you cannot prove that there was. As a matter of fact there has been a substantila amount of WMD found in Iraq. Anyone who truly believes that Saddam was not moving in that direction is not paying attention and has trouble coming to logical conclusions.
These are decent men who are being trashed daily because they stand up for what is right. And, I repeat, THEY ARE SAVING EVERY ONE OF YOUR SORRY BACKSIDES along with the dedicated troops who WANT to do the job in Iraq.
Unfortunately, you are being duped by the liberal press and, ironically, are the ones blindly following your leaders!
The democrats are all about POWER (Harry Reid admitted it) and will sacrifice their own Country, if necessary, to obtain it. It’s shameful and disgusting, not to mention treacherous.
PS you sound a little confused about your identity.
April 27th, 2007 at 6:22 pm#50 Funny you should mention Helaman – do you believe the B of Mormon or not? Sounds like you are not sure . . .
If so, I think you are missing the point. The sons of Helaman were not about “speaking truth to power” (which is a meaningless catchphrase popular with the left right now), but about FIGHTING FOR WHAT IS RIGHT, FAITH, COURAGE, and BROTHERLY LOVE. THEY FOUGHT IN A JUST WAR, for heaven sake!
The parallel to our modern day US military is deliciously irresistable. They are just like our men and women fighting in Iraq ~ willing to give their very blood for freedom’s cause, because they know its the right thing to do.
April 27th, 2007 at 6:36 pmPam; I don’t see you willing to give your very blood for freedom’s cause. That would be the right thing to do. So get to it girlie, run down to your nearest recruiter and enlist ASAP.
April 27th, 2007 at 7:23 pmOne truck driver screamed to the protesters “you’re all traitors!†while several others in this largely Mormon town opted for the more subtle “I’ll be praying for you!â€
Traitors of what? America was founded on the desent of the leaders! Speaking out against obvious wrongs! Your going to pray for me? Why not try to do something a little more evolved and discuss and debate – instead of some primative monkey pity-insult. You’ll all lose in any kind of debate in seconds, that’s why your blind as bats, swimming in the blood of others like the murderous psychopaths you are, and are lowered to the stupid of our society, ignorantly name calling. And i’m not insulting you, young ones, it’s called the truth…unlike calling us traitors or “praying for us”. You need to pray to God for a brain and eyes.
April 27th, 2007 at 8:02 pmDennis Kucinich’s Dept. of Peace is almost certainly inspired from his association with Dr. John Hagelin, world famous Quantum Physicist, former Natural Law Presidential Candidate and President of the Peace Government. Dr. John Hagelin is flat out the most intelligent man to EVER run for President.
Comment by Larry from C — April 27, 2007 @ 4:55 pm
Larry say it ain’t so. Please please tell me Kucinich isn’t a follower of the Transcendental Meditation, Maharishi Yogi following nutcase? They’ve gotten someone that high up? This is not good, not good at all. You’re just trying to put one over on me right?
April 27th, 2007 at 8:21 pmAre you joking, upright left? I would have thought that’s exactly why your side likes Kucinich?
April 28th, 2007 at 12:05 am#58
Well, I hate to say it, but being a Zoobie and living in Happy Valley for a few years is hardly enough to give you any true understanding about the politics of Utah. If that’s the sum of your Utah experience, I can practically guarantee that I know more about it than you do.
You are hopelessly naive if you think that the Church doesn’t have any sway over its members’ political beliefs. Why do you think there’s not even the tiniest whiff of legalized gambling in Utah? Where else in the U.S. can a church seize a public street and “buy” it from the state in an manner that is borderline un-constitutional? Why is it that Utah legislators consult the brethren before passing any laws regarding alcohol or any number of issues they feel the Church might disagree with and no one even bats an eye? This stuff is reported in Utah newspapers all the time.
I hate to say this as well, but the Church “dictates” to it’s members constantly. Not always officially, meaning from the Brethren, but local bishops and members do it all the time. Fast and testimony meeting is a great place for people to stump and exhort each other to toe the Republican line. I couldn’t count how many times political issues were brought up in my time there and the unmistakable position that the Church has taken even if it is officially unspoken.
Your point about all Oregonians voting the same way is irrelevant. Oregon isn’t dominated by a local religious body. Apples and oranges.
I grew up in Utah as an ultra-conservative Mormon. I lived and breathed those beliefs for over 30 years. I understand the LDS Church better than most Mormons do. I served my mission in Mormon dominated Idaho and dealt with wards and stakes by the score. I exhorted its members to preach the word and saw first hand all of its inner politics. I have friends and family who attended BYU- even dated a couple of girls there and saw first hand how close-minded and judgmental that place is. I had an un-shakeable testimony and a huge judgmental streak of my own that ran more towards Church members than non-members. I was sick and tired of seeing 70 year olds ask questions about stuff they should have learned in Primary. Listening to excuse after excuse as to why they couldn’t do their home teaching that month or watching people sleep through Sacrament meeting and screw around in Sunday school when they should have been learning. Most had never even read the BoM cover to cover, let alone the Bible. And even fewer knew jot or tittle about Church History. I saw a bunch of sheep then- I see a bunch of sheep now. “Living off the light of another’s testimony” if you will. They follow the crowd- it’s much easier than thinking for yourself.
As far as knowing “in my heart” about Bush and Cheney’s goodness, well I don’t make decisions based on a vague emotional response from some invisible “Spirit” like I used to. Instead I “Study it out” in my mind and use facts on which to base my decisions.
Dick Cheney continues to state that Saddam had a working relationship with Al-Queda, contrary to ALL evidence proving that line false. Every time he says it, it’s another lie he’s told. He keeps saying that the insurgency is “In its last throes” and that Saddam had wmd’s irregardless of what the facts and everyone around him has stated. So, logically, the only conclusions that one can come to is that he’s either A- a liar, or B- an idiot. I don’t like either of those qualities in my leaders and neither should you. Close to 300 good Zoobies risked ridicule and the contempt of their peers to state their opinion on Dick Cheney’s integrity. They have rational and reasonable complaints, and I applaud them for their courage.
I’m sure that the good folks at BYU will welcome them back into the fold as soon as they shut up, repent and do their home and visiting teaching.
btw I don’t blindly follow ANYONE anymore- I didn’t bust my way out of 30 years worth of “following the Prophet” only to turn around and blindly follow someone else.
April 28th, 2007 at 4:13 amThe Democrats are barely better than the Republicans in my estimation. I only support them because they have legitimacy, and they care more about average Americans than Republicans do- if in word only. Almost all of our politicans are bought and sold to the highest K-street bidder. Perhaps both conservative and liberal grassroots should start working together to reform the system rather than waste time trading barbs over the issue of the day.
Are you joking, upright left? I would have thought that’s exactly why your side likes Kucinich?
Comment by Jake — April 28, 2007 @ 12:05 am
Upright left is an oxymoron.
April 28th, 2007 at 9:37 amI am a liberal Mormon — the only kind there would be if Mormons understood the teachings of Joseph Smith and Jesus Christ. I have been one all my life and grew up in Utah when it was irrationally Republican. I had to defend my beliefs every day. I remain loyal to the Church and active in it.
I have to say, though, that knowing that my church sponsored a speech by and an honorary degree to one of the most evil men in the world turned my stomach and filled me with a deep sadness. Utah has joined the polarization of America and leads the way for the evil team. I will stay with the Church, but my donations to BYU are over.
This whole shenanigan was inexcusable, and seeing Gordon B. Hinckley sitting behind Cheney on the dais made me sick. So much for the Church’s “impartiality” in politics. The Mormon church in Utah has clearly lost its way, and Utah has moved from irrational conservatism to rabid conservatism. I can never go home.
May 1st, 2007 at 11:56 pmHi “Croaker” (if you read this, I’m a little for the discussion)
I’m a LDS from Europe and I just wanted to say you’re spot on just about all the politics in the discussion above. It’s scary to see how ignorant the people of UTAH is of how the world works, yet perhaps we can’t blame all of it on them. They are brought up in an environment without any real political discussion or credible media coverage.
And as for the WMD. The rest of the world, outside the US, KNEW that there were no WMD, though we couldn’t ultimately prove it. The US administration faked evidence and presented it to UN as facts. The bad guys won the discussion because of the lies and started the war (though they had already decided to start it according to leaked documents).
If only an even half descent media coverage in UTAH would have existed, perhaps the LSD people could understand this … and all the other things that are so evident to the rest of the world, including a baffled Christian world community
And in regards to the spirit … I know it exists, because I have felt it, stronger than any feeling my body could produce. It is important as you say (and as the Book of Mormon clearly states) to study things out in your mind. The spirit can confirm the truth of it though, if you want it to.
Thanks for standing up for the truth about the war and the present US gov.
Marcus (LSD member, London)
May 4th, 2007 at 7:32 am