A ’shocking’ account of ‘lawlessness.’
A ’shocking’ account of ‘lawlessness.’
The Washington Post calls former Justice official James Comey’s testimony yesterday “an account of Bush administration lawlessness so shocking it would have been unbelievable coming from a less reputable source.”
The dramatic details should not obscure the bottom line: the administration’s alarming willingness, championed by, among others, Vice President Cheney and his counsel, David Addington, to ignore its own lawyers. Remember, this was a Justice Department that had embraced an expansive view of the president’s inherent constitutional powers, allowing the administration to dispense with following the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. Justice’s conclusions are supposed to be the final word in the executive branch about what is lawful or not, and the administration has emphasized since the warrantless wiretapping story broke that it was being done under the department’s supervision.
Now, it emerges, they were willing to override Justice if need be. That Mr. Gonzales is now in charge of the department he tried to steamroll may be most disturbing of all.
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IMPEACHMENT: Not just for blowjobs anymore!
May 16th, 2007 at 8:10 am“Ignore its own lawyer” does not mean “lawlessness” per se. Remember, they have the ROBERTS Court now.
May 16th, 2007 at 8:10 amDICTATORSHIP
May 16th, 2007 at 8:10 am“Disturbing” for who? The terrorists we are trying to find and kill?
May 16th, 2007 at 8:12 amWith Congress’s approval rating LESS than the President’s, I doubt IMPEACHMENT is on the table.
May 16th, 2007 at 8:13 amJake, thanks for keeping up the “good” name of the Wingnut-jobs.
You’re paid trolling is the most laughable bullsh*t ever. PATHETIC, yet endearingly expected.
“Heckuva job, Jakey-poo”.
May 16th, 2007 at 8:17 amOur resident troll supports a dictatorship.
May 16th, 2007 at 8:17 amThings have reached rock bottom when fred hiatt and donald graham can longer ignore the lawlessness of the bush Department of Injustice. So what do the dems need to impeach gonzo pictures of him strangling a nun?
May 16th, 2007 at 8:18 amI love the smell of IMPEACHMENT early in the morning…
May 16th, 2007 at 8:21 amFor the record, I am not paid to post and the only way I support Bush staying in office after January 20, 2009 is if his duly elected successor(s) are all killed in some catastrophic tragedy.
May 16th, 2007 at 8:21 amklyde:
What “lawlessness”?! Visiting someone in the hospital is illegal now (I thought only if you’re gay)? A good faith argument to enforce the Commander in Chief’s warpowers is not “lawlessness” either. Especially if the ROBERTS Court approved.
May 16th, 2007 at 8:24 amThe Bush administratiion lied about the wire tapping program (again) because they know the American people don’t approve. I wonder just how much presidential power George Bush and Dick Cheney think should be granted under our constitution? It’s worth discussing.
May 16th, 2007 at 8:27 amJake we only need 10 laws.
May 16th, 2007 at 8:29 amBig Brother at last!! Every last one of these criminals who so willingly and flagrantly broke the laws of this country need to be brought to trial and incarcerated according to the law of the land. NO ONE IS ABOVE THE LAW! And, that includes our illustrious law-breaking Pres and Veep as well. Include a host of others: Tenet, Gonzo, Rice, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Perle, et al when it comes to doling out the punishment. Let’s throw the book at all of them in order to fix this democracy as well as the perception of the US internationally. The eyes of the world are upon us – watching to see if we will “police our own” and begin to “walk the talk”; after all, if we are a nation of laws and rules, then let’s throw the book at all of them.
The GOP is history – everyone in it broke the law “because they could”……with a complicit DOJ aiding and abetting and “obstructing the law”, they knew they could get away with anything and everything.
May 16th, 2007 at 8:33 amP.S. I call lying to the american people a “high crime” and an impeachable offense, don’t you? How many lies has Bush told us now? After all, other great men were brought down by a single lie – it’s time to impeach both Cheney & Bush!
May 16th, 2007 at 8:34 amenv:
I’m an American, and I approve of giving Bush the SAME EXACT POWER every wartime President has had to spy on the enemy. I also have no problem letting the ROBERTS Court answer that question.
May 16th, 2007 at 8:35 amthe post is OFF their bird
but then they go OFF the FUH RIGGIN deep end with this BIZARRE statement, emboldens are of course mine on this entire post but check this out;
WHAT THE HELL DOES THAT MEAN?
the PRESIDENT reauthorized the FUCKING program HIMSELF?
AND THE POST CLAIMS THE PROBLEM WAS AVERTED?
JAHEEZUS CUHRYSTE!!!
May 16th, 2007 at 8:36 ambut then they go OFF the FUH RIGGIN deep end with this BIZARRE statement, emboldens are of course mine on this entire post but check this out;
WHAT THE HELL DOES THAT MEAN?
the PRESIDENT reauthorized the program HIMSELF?
AND THE POST CLAIMS THE PROBLEM WAS AVERTED?
JAHEEZUS CUHRYSTE!!!
May 16th, 2007 at 8:36 amJake @ #11. C’mon man, asking someone to sign into law something that is fundmentally against the Constitution and principals of our country while they are in intensive care and probably on a morphine drip after the acting AG said “No, this isn’t Constitutional” is beyond slimey. No one in the right mind would think it is moral or legit behavior. Typically, the spoiled, entitled, rats of the administration cannot understand that the country’s law are more important than their whims (as in the whims of madmen). The best part of the story is that even the sickly AG Ashcroft STILL refused their request because it was so obviously illegal and against the principles of democracy. What did Bush do? Wrote another fuckin’ secret “signing statement” saying that the law doesn’t apply to him, or his people, or anyone else he says. How can you defend that type of behavior? There are only two answers; either you are paid to do it, or you have some sort of cognative disorder.
May 16th, 2007 at 8:36 amI watched Frontline lastnight. They were not hard enough on the Chimp. But if you listen to BushCo and Yoo, the only way we’ll get them to stop spying on us is to take away their war powers.
“If the President does it, it’s not wrong”. That’s what this is about.
May 16th, 2007 at 8:37 amHow long till the Reichstag is burned?
May 16th, 2007 at 8:37 ambut then they go OFF the FUH RIGGIN deep end with this BIZARRE statement, emboldens are of course mine on this entire post but check this out;
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
the PRESIDENT reauthorized the program HIMSELF?
AND THE POST CLAIMS THE PROBLEM WAS AVERTED?
what is wrong with these people?
May 16th, 2007 at 8:37 amFor the record, I don’t know that ANY Bush “lie” has been proven. I don’t know that any law was broken either. I will agree that no one is above the law. For instance, a sitting President cannot be indicted but rather must be impeached first. That’s just the law. He can exercise ALL powers legally invested in the Commander-in-Chief, up to and including nuclear weapons. Of course, that does not mean he can accept bribes and stash the cash in his freezer ; )
As I noted above, though, with Congress’s approval rating LESS than the President’s, I doubt IMPEACHMENT is back on the table because of a hospital visit that was reported in Newsweek a year ago.
May 16th, 2007 at 8:42 ammornin’ all –
now, how long until we
see ANOTHER one of
these, i wonder. . .?
it was the hottest
May 16th, 2007 at 8:46 amsummer of the 1970s’,
as i do recall. . .
Jake:
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
May 16th, 2007 at 8:47 amJake I’ve always been one try to understand the emergency aspect of domestic spying. BUt there are 2 outstanding issues, here.
1. Evidence suggests that the current administration tries to increase it’s power through these shadow policies and that American safety truly is a side aspect of their intent.
2. Right NOW they say the President’s wartime status gives him these spy powers. But in reality they think the president should just simply flat out have the power to spy on Americans. And evidence suggest they have not been forthright about all of the programs they have in place to data mine (nearly 200 programs).
So tell me, Jake. I know you support Bush and strong safety, etc. But don’t you ever grow tired of hearing half truths? Don’t you ever consider that the joke is on you, too? There are many many many high level intelligence folks who are very shocked and concerned about the Bush administration’s encroachments on civil liberties. And it is flippantly irresponsible for to to wave the flag and hope Roberts makes it all better for you.
May 16th, 2007 at 8:47 am. . .I don’t know that any law was broken either. . .
Comment by Jake — May 16, 2007 @ 8:42 am
try FISA — the program operated
outside the law for two to three
weeks during march and april of 2004.
and the lie was that bush always said
he operated with the DoJ’s approval on
FISA — that was clearly not true during
the two weeks. FISA restrictions were
WILLFULLY ignored by the white house.
there’s your felony, right there, bud.
and it’s gonna’ leave a mark.
May 16th, 2007 at 8:49 amwill.not.feed.trolls.
May 16th, 2007 at 8:50 amThe Bush administration(SIC) lied about the wire tapping program (again) because they know the American people don’t approve. I wonder just how much presidential power George Bush and Dick Cheney think should be granted under our constitution?(SIC) It’s worth discussing.
Comment by env — May 16, 2007 @ 8:27 am
Anyone can argue the points however the President has war powers now and can set aside parts or the entirety of the Constitution during war. We don’t like this but it has been done. At some point we must realize that our conditions could be worse:
Work camps
Martial law
Gun confiscation
Shutting places of worship
No voting at all
Outlawing congress
Draft
Etc…
Could all be done under Executive Order. Bush might just implement all of that? If you were elected President then in fact you would be the commander of the Military. During a war the Military runs the show.
War crushes individuality since groupthink is what the military does best. You are free to express yourself with bullets when the command to fire is ordered during a war. We don’t like the loss of individuality and we don’t want war or violence but this is the situation.
Yes this all SUCKS!
May 16th, 2007 at 8:50 amReally, isn’t it time to just RICO the whole freakin’ lot of them?
May 16th, 2007 at 8:52 amIgnore Jake the troll. He is being paid to spout inanities and to hijack the thread. Don’t give him the satisfaction.
Remember, neither facts nor logic can be absorbed by trolls’ brains. You might as well be arguing with a wall.
May 16th, 2007 at 8:54 amjeff:
It’s not just Roberts, but remember Alito endorsed the same exact policies under Reagan. If it was indeed a good faith argument to enforce the Commander in Chief’s warpowers that EVERY WARTIME PRESIDENT IN HISTORY has had, where are the half-truths? I think the “joke” will be on you if the President is forced to reveal, or impeached for not revealing, how we are spying on the enemy. Do you think trying to enforce the FISA against FDR would have been appropriate? To the extent the FISA enfringes on the warpowers of the President of the United States, there is at least an argument to be made it is un-Constitutional.
May 16th, 2007 at 8:56 amI’ve never been a big Ashcroft fan, especially his singing, but when a man is extremely ill awaiting surgery and has the White House’s top lawyer, Abu G & WH Counsel Card trying to get him to sign something obviously illegal it scares the hell out of me.
WTF?
Jakeoff, you can take your Roberts court & shove it where even Cheney doesn’t go. But, maybe you do.
May 16th, 2007 at 8:57 amAgain, for the record, I am not paid to post here. If jeff does not think I just answered his questions, on topic, I invite him to not reply.
May 16th, 2007 at 8:59 amI am finding it very difficult to believe that some of these trolls really believe what they write. They march in lockstep with their leader, and there is nothing they won’t defend. Absolutely nothing. Would they sanction Bush killing and eating babies on live television. Sometimes I wonder.
Dust of your resumes, trolls, you’ll be pounding the pavement for new work soon.
May 16th, 2007 at 9:01 amFor the record, I am not paid to post and the only way I support Bush staying in office after January 20, 2009 is if his duly elected successor(s) are all killed in some catastrophic tragedy.
Comment by Jake — May 16, 2007 @ 8:21 am
Of course there is ZERO legal basis to Jake’s bizarre idea about Bush staying on as President, since this would be unconstitutional under any circumstances. The chain of succession must be 30 people long. Is Jake really, really stupid, or is he trying to invent new laws for the team?
May 16th, 2007 at 9:04 amThe best thing about being a troll is that you can recycle your comments and rarely, if ever, find anything new to add. Oh, sure, there are always new talking points from the “conservative” network to toss into the mix, but since repetition is the soul of trollery, it looks like you can trollpost and read the Family Circus at the same time.
Now the jake known as troll, I mean troll known as jake is reposting his old crap about “no crime committed” and simply added the new meme: “I doubt impeachment is on the table.”
Since there is nothing new, it’s safe to ignore the jaketroll again.
And again.
May 16th, 2007 at 9:05 amWhat “lawlessness�! Visiting someone in the hospital is illegal now (I thought only if you’re gay)?
Comment by Jake — May 16, 2007 @ 8:24 am
What a freakin’ numbskull this guy is. Jake, Ashcroft was not legally in charge at the time. Card and Gonzales tried to make an end run around acting AG Comey by inducing an incapacitated Ashcroft to take legal action that he was not authorized to take at the time. This is illegal.
Absolutely f*cking stupid beyond all comprehension.
May 16th, 2007 at 9:07 am#1. That is the bumpersticker I have on my car. I am constantly asked by people “where can I get that sticker?”
May 16th, 2007 at 9:08 amJake I really don’t think Zawahiri has any vital info in the data logs. He’s wearing sandals and a robe in a cave somewhere. You and I have infinitely more data in there.
May 16th, 2007 at 9:08 amBut allow me to say it AGAIN. I don’t have a problem with spy programs. I try to give the wartime president the benefit of the doubt. But Bush thinks these powers are tied to his office, not his wartime status. And they arrive at this language via the “we’re always going to be at war” attitude.
Jake it’s the new “If the president does it it’s not illegal”. You guys have missed a fundamental lesson from near history. And you’re wrong.
Data minig is a cheap substitute for catching terrorists, includung the ones who attacked us on 911.
I can’t believe I’m saying this…
Ashcroft was a better AG than Gonzales could ever hope to be!
Suck on that, Jakeoff.
May 16th, 2007 at 9:09 amI thought Jake was on our ignore lists?
May 16th, 2007 at 9:10 amAh, folks, have you noticed that more than half of the comments on this thread are in relation to Jake the Troll? Would it not be more constructive to discuss the issue than to feed the ego of a troll whose purpose is met when more than half the comments are about his baiting questions and statements?
May 16th, 2007 at 9:10 amCorruption, mismanagement and malfeasence, abroad and at home.
Our military, breaking if not, indeed, broken.
The old Fourth Estate, sold out, bought up and neutered.
The violations of the Hatch Act and the loyalty oaths at DOJ – evidence of a willingness to pervert the sacred democratic principles upon which our great nation was founded. The principles at the very core of what it means, Jake, to be an American.
Is this what our young men and women are being maimed and killed to protect and perpetuate, Jake?
May 16th, 2007 at 9:10 amComment by VerbalKint — May 16, 2007 @ 9:01 am
This is not pro Bush or anti Bush it is simply a FACT that…
If you were elected President Kint, and the nation went to war the ENTIRE Constitution could be set aside by Executive order…
May 16th, 2007 at 9:11 am
I don’t know that any law was broken either.
omment by Jake — May 16, 2007 @ 8:42 am
Well, Jake, you have amply demonstrated that you don’t know the first thing about the law. You have some of the most bizarre constitutional theories I have ever heard. Based on the extraordinary statements you have made here, I seriously doubt that you even understand the underlying premise of laws, i.e the rule of law.
May 16th, 2007 at 9:11 amThe Bushies don’t care about the law. They have proven it time and time again. Bush doesn’t like a law…so he does a signing statement saying he doesn’t have to follow the law. Someone is not with the program, they “resign” and he puts in someone who is with the program. This administration has become a dictatorship and Bush has turned our government into a wholly owned subsidiary of the Republic party and it’s corporate allies.
We are in deep shit folks. Here’s hoping we can survive another 18 months of this.
May 16th, 2007 at 9:16 am“With Congress’s approval rating LESS than the President’s…”
Uh, Jake, you can and do read, don’t you? or perhaps it’s time to have your meds adjusted, because you would appear to be HALLUCINATING.
May 16th, 2007 at 9:17 am“…Gonzales and Card at Ashcroft’s bedside…”
Don’t overlook the fact that Karl Rove sent them…Imagine a man barely conscious and unable to think being asked to overule his Deputy AG. Even though Ashcroft was in an entirely limited cognitive zone he knew better than to embroil himself in something he was clueless about.
GWBush is an awful man to call a spouse for permission for his lackeys to see him. I suppose the only reason Mrs. Ashcroft did so, was that she beleived it would imperil her husband’s job if she failed to give permission.
Ashcroft however understand the enormity and resign after he re-gained his health. He understood nothing was worth losing his life or his integrity for, as he only had God to answer to.
I may not agree with his religious principles entirely but one thing is for certain, he has a moral compass that allows him to have far greater integrity than the bunch of Regents grads he hired into the DOJ.
This is such a sad story and it is unbelievable how it will not receive news coverage…other than Olberman.
May 16th, 2007 at 9:19 amGive it up, Jake. Seriously. And get some help why you are at it. Join a club. Meet some people. Go to church. Develop a personal belief system rooted in morals and ethics. Honor justice.
May 16th, 2007 at 9:20 amAnyone besides me notice that Mr. President goes missing whenever Jake shows up?
I still wish that people would stop feeding the trolls. There have been threads I don’t even read when it becomes a contest between the resident troll and someone else to see who can have the last word. I know it is hard not to respond to the trolls but I bet if we all do it, they will get bored and go away.
May 16th, 2007 at 9:21 am“Personnel is policy”, as the Heritage Foundation says:
http://www.heritage.org/Research/GovernmentReform/BG1403.cfm
The neoconservative radicals, corporatists and royalists in the Bush administration took the concept and ran with it. The placement of loyalists in (high and low) places and the lack of an effective opposition have allowed them to treat U.S. laws as opinions that can be ignored.
May 16th, 2007 at 9:21 amSaywho,
Forgive my ignorance but what war powers allow the president to set aside the constitution. And what war? The war on terror? If we are prepared to set aside the constitution because of the so called “war on terror” then we must be prepared to null the constitution for ever because there will never be an end to the war on terror. The war against Iraq? Congress never declared war on Iraq. Iraq is the closest example of a classic war between two countries when compared to the “war on terror”. However, we will never be over that war either because we went there for regime change. Where is that gov’t’s surrender ceromony or treaty? There is a new gov’t but no surrender ceromony. Which leads to another point. Didn’t congress authorize the president to use force to disarm Saddam Hussien? Well he’s disarmed and beheaded for that matter. What authority does the president have to wage war against Iraq now. So. It is one big confused mess this so called war and I, for one, have problems throwing the constitution out the window for it.
May 16th, 2007 at 9:22 amWhy are you so shocked?
May 16th, 2007 at 9:28 amThis is a government gone amuk
env they believe the pres’s rights as defender trumps law.
May 16th, 2007 at 9:29 amDuring Watergate (before my time) how far did the investigation go before Nixon said “hmm, maybe I should resign…?” I don’t see any sign that Bush is capable of showing the same concern for either his reputation or the stability of the country, but are we nearing the same point yet?
May 16th, 2007 at 9:40 am“For the record, I don’t know that ANY Bush “lie†has been proven.”
jake the war-record jacking liar
That is what IMPEACHMENT is for, moron. There is plenty of evidence that strongly suggests that serious lies were told to get us into the iraq occupation. If bush has done nothing wrong, let him defend himself and clear his name in the constitutionly sactioned manner. It’s only fair. for him and for the country.
May 16th, 2007 at 9:44 amFor the record Jake “Major operations in Iraq are over” was and is a lie.
May 16th, 2007 at 9:51 amComment by env — May 16, 2007 @ 9:22 am
What war powers…
The 109th green lighted the invasion of Afghanistan & Iraq by vote to empower the President.
The 109th Congress green lighted the Patriot Act and that puts conditions on the Constitution.
Presidents have and can use EXECUTIVE ORDERS like the example I gave.
Read this part… I don’t like it! That is to say that in fact I hate all of this.
http://www.disastercenter.com/laworder/laworder.htm
http://www.mindfully.org/Reform/2004/FEMA-Concentration-Camps3sep04.htm
You and others rush to shoot the messenger rather than seeing the truth. The nation is at war and in fact it could be much worse. Now we are seeing the economy crumble and the day may come that Executive Order will place us under martial law. Do you in some warped way think that I want to go to a camp with you? What is important is that we understand the reality of the situation.
The reality is that everything is pointing to violence and death. We may in fact be seeing a race war in the US as we slip into depression. When your unemployment runs out all that you can do is join the army and fight in Iraq. That is what is at stake here! That is the gravity of the situation!
May 16th, 2007 at 9:52 amDM I have no doubt that BushCo would fight impeachment proceedings using presidential war powers as their reason.
May 16th, 2007 at 9:55 amThey are pretty clear that Bush’s war powers makes him a dictator.
Yes, in case anyone hasn’t noticed yet . . .
May 16th, 2007 at 10:02 amthe people of the United States are George Bush’s enemies.
He shows it constantly and acts accordingly.
We don’t like the loss of individuality and we don’t want war or violence but this is the situation.
I call bullshit. You DO love this situation. The evidence is the decades’ long history during which you and your ilk have done everything you can to get us there and keep us there permanently. You are an authoritarian and you yearn for the long-promised police state the right wing has been trying to bring about in this country since at least the 40s. That is the America you want, and it’s the one you and your Cheney administration are rapidly bringing about. So justify it however you want, but kindly spare us the sanctimonious lie that you think it’s a regrettable necessity. You can tell yourself whatever lies you need to keep that cognitive dissonance at bay, but it’s b.s. and you know it.
May 16th, 2007 at 10:03 amShocking? NOT! We all knew Gonzo is a Bushie and Bush is the Decider in Chief and Cheney the Decider. Laws be damned. It’s really comes down to whatever they want to do to line the pockets of their cronies.
May 16th, 2007 at 10:17 amThis bunch of Repugnicunts is looking more and more like a bad version of The Godfather. They need to be taken down, ‘08 may be too late.
BTW anyone feeding the trolls is almost as bad as they are. Their whole purpose is to disrupt threads. It takes feedback to do that, even Jake will get tired of his mental masturbation when no one pays attention to him.
May 16th, 2007 at 10:20 amNo. 61, Fools on the Hill:
I believe you are soo right.
May 16th, 2007 at 10:22 amI think they’ve show it to be true from the start.
And after this whole fiasco, instead of naming Comey as AG, someone with a conscience and a brain, W gives the job to Gonzo, someone who has neither.
May 16th, 2007 at 10:30 amHe and Cheney deserve each other. We deserve neither.
but kindly spare us the sanctimonious lie that you think it’s a regrettable necessity. You can tell yourself whatever lies you need to keep that cognitive dissonance at bay, but it’s b.s. and you know it.
Comment by DrBB — May 16, 2007 @ 10:03 am
I can see you are directing your hostility at me but you have no basis in fact to make the claims you did in your post. I never said it was a “regrettable necessity” nor did I imply that is was something that “I desire”. You made those assertions and simply making broad assertions does not make facts. Bush can in fact use EXECUTIVE ORDERS and place the entire nation under martial law, just like you could if you were the Commander In Chief. What do you think the title “COMMANDER†means you DAFT idiot? Bush, when he was elected, became the COMMANDER of the US Army. Once war powers are enacted he (TCIC) can pretty much do as he pleases.
Don’t resent me for stating what should be obvious to you. When I said that, “I DON’T LIKE IT†I was stating as a fact that, “I DON’T LIKE IT!â€
May 16th, 2007 at 10:31 amIs Jake really, really stupid, or is he trying to invent new laws for the team?
Comment by VerbalKint — May 16, 2007 @ 9:04 am
YES and YES!
May 16th, 2007 at 10:35 amComment by DrBB — May 16, 2007 @ 10:03 am
Well said and 100% accurate.
May 16th, 2007 at 10:42 amHey Jake the Fake you are just as Stupid today as every other day, jakeass.
What fake story you make up today, instead of Korean war vet, how about jedi knight, or maybe fireman, or maybe police officer?
You are a scum sucking subhuman knuckle dragging bottom feeding trailer trash, FY
Hating Jack the Fake (RNC paid troll)
May 16th, 2007 at 10:53 amAnd lets not forget Valiant Douche Bag, you suck too
The nation is at war
No, we are not. We are an occupying force in two nations where we are not at war with their governments.
The “war against global terror” is not a war either in any sense that conveys war powers. It’s a real and important conflict, but it isn’t a war.
Now we are seeing the economy crumble
If it is crumbling, it’s because of stupid leadership that is flushing our treasury down the drain in support of an unnecessary occupation in a country split by civil war.
and the day may come that Executive Order will place us under martial law.
And that’s the day we stop playing nice and we take back our country, by people power or by force, as needed.
This government can’t tie it’s shoes, much less control an angry and uncooperative nation. There is only one possible final outcome of a Dubya-Darth Martial Law Plan – decapitation of the regime, followed by restoration of the Constitution and the rule of law they have been pissing on for 6.5 years now.
May 16th, 2007 at 11:12 amComment by gorn by any other name — May 16, 2007 @ 11:12 am
Your entire post there is at best wishful thinking gorn. The “Iraq War Powers Repeal Act of 2006″ (didn’t pass) says all you need to know in its title. To REPEAL something is to take back and WAR POWERS are the object to be taken back regarding THE IRAQ WAR!
So that one point alone strikes down your post. I would agree that in a classical sense that this is not a WAR like WW2 or the Revolutionary War. Regardless, you on that point are WRONG and so then is your whole basis for posting.
Your statement about the economy is false. The cause for the economic issues dated back to Clinton establishing Free Trade with China and allowing China to bankroll the USA. Bush made that worse by buying our love with that check that we all got that was supposed to be a refund of the surplus…Remember? Nixon eliminated the Gold Standard and left us with a “Fiat Currency” based on ENERGY. Then the Lower 48 went into terminal decline. The billions that we are “spending” on this “war” don’t exist and never will.
We are out of energy so all bets are off!
The party is OVER!
May 16th, 2007 at 11:34 amYour entire post there is at best wishful thinking gorn. The “Iraq War Powers Repeal Act of 2006″ (didn’t pass) says all you need to know in its title. To REPEAL something is to take back and WAR POWERS are the object to be taken back regarding THE IRAQ WAR!
The Iraq war was against the then-extant Hussein regime. That regime was quickly eliminated and the leader captured and hanged. We installed a government in Iraq. We are not at war with that government. At present, we merely occupy the country and stand between factions in a civil war.
We are not at war. To say otherwise is to propagate a content-free meme like a good stooge of the regime.
Your statement about the economy is false. The cause for the economic issues dated back to Clinton establishing Free Trade with China and allowing China to bankroll the USA.
More nonsense. We wouldn’t have need to be bankrolled by China if the current regime was not shipping our treasury into the black hole of the Democratic Republic of Haliburton (AKA Iraq). Nice try to blame Clinton on the fiscal insanity of Republicans who not only have overseen the largest rape of our economy in history for the past six years, but also controlled the Congress, and thus the purse strings, during the preceding six Clinton years. Get a grip.
Then the Lower 48 went into terminal decline. The billions that we are “spending†on this “war†don’t exist and never will.
On that point, I agree.
We are out of energy so all bets are off!
If we took the same amount of money that has been flushed down the Iraq drain, and instead used it for solar energy, we could have installed solar panels on 15-30 million US homes, thus taking them all off the Middle East tit and immediately transforming the economic engine that drives 95% of the world’s problems. Plug-in hybrids vehicles used by those homeowners would mean the sun would be driving the cars. The sun represents an essentially infinite source of clean and safe energy, the vast bulk of which is currently wasted.
Don’t tell me we’re out of energy and all bets are off. We have all the energy we need. We simply lack the will as a people to force the oil-soaked aristocracy to embark on the necessary infrastructure implementation. We smile while they waste time on flawed bandages such as ethanol, while the practical answers wait to be tapped. If we cared, we could embark on a 20-year plan to completely remove ourselves from ME Oil dependence, and the work of the first few years would be enough to stick a permanent knife in the back of the extremists who threaten our future.
But no, we lack the visionary leadership to take a strategic view. We put people in charge who think strategy means neverending warfare to protect the status quo. The neocons who like to think they are great strategic thinkers want to reshape the middle east to protect our oil. That isn’t a strategy. It is a tactical path to insanity that in the end solves nothing of long term importance.
The [Repubublican] party is OVER!
There, I fixed that for you.
May 16th, 2007 at 12:02 pmHow much evidence of a growing dictatorship is necessary for the news media, and the general public, to realize that there is a cancer in the White House and it must be excised.
Bush&Co were appointed into office in 2000, were re-elected in 2004 through concerted lies, a complicit media, and a complacent public.
Now it is becoming increasingly undeniable that there is something terribly rotten stinking up the place, but it is going to take media coverage, educating the public, and relentless perseverance to end this nightmare.
May 16th, 2007 at 12:17 pm“With Congress’s approval rating LESS than the President’s, I doubt IMPEACHMENT is on the table.
Comment by Jake ”
Right, as if congressional approval ratings had a bearing on this political process, cf clinton impeachment…
May 16th, 2007 at 12:19 pmComment by gorn by any other name — May 16, 2007 @ 12:02 pm
You sound smart but the facts are not on your side. War Powers were issued and no repeal has been issued so the War is On. So then you were saying something but I just parted company with your post and your need to be right.
Now when I say the party is over I’m not talking about politics or political parties. I happen to be a Dem for what that is worth. What I am talking about is that the days of cheap oil are OVER. You would know that if you read any of my posts. All the words you can type can’t change this FACT….
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/2470
The rapid depletion of Ghawar marks the end of the industrial revolution & cheap energy.
May 16th, 2007 at 12:19 pmPlug-in hybrids vehicles used by those homeowners would mean the sun would be driving the cars. The sun represents an essentially infinite source of clean and safe energy, the vast bulk of which is currently wasted.
Comment by gorn by any other name — May 16, 2007 @ 12:02 pm
Where do batteries, solar cells, fuel cells and wind mills come from Gorn??
May 16th, 2007 at 12:24 pmWhere do batteries, solar cells, fuel cells and wind mills come from Gorn??
There is a very important distinction to be made between power generation and material fabrication. Both are legitimate issues but power generation is by far the major issue with regard to ME dependency.
May 16th, 2007 at 12:33 pmWar Powers were issued and no repeal has been issued so the War is On.
You can continue to repeat your talking point as much as you want, but it doesn’t change the fact that we have no declared war against any existing government. I really don’t think that’s a debatable point.
I happen to be a Dem for what that is worth.
And just to continue the irony, I’m NOT a Dem.
May 16th, 2007 at 12:36 pmComment by gorn by any other name — May 16, 2007 @ 12:33 pm
Batteries and all of the devices we use come from MINES! As time has passed we burned up forrests and then we burned the forrests and coal then we burned the forrests, coal and oil then we burned the forrests, coal, oil and split the atom.
Gorn, trees and vegitation covering the ground are in fact solar cells. Over timeall living things are broken down and after millions of years there is oil, natural gas and coal. It is clear that fossil fuel is simply another solar cell of sorts.
As I was stating, we didn’t switch from one energy source to another. We in fact included new higher EROEI sources along with the original FIRE from burning wood.
Look at this….
http://www.theoildrum.com/node/2470
and now stop kidding yourself. We can’t deep mine gallium, silver, uranium and the like without all of the energy we now use. What you want is FREE ENERGY (like perpetual motion) and that like your post is nothing but wishful thinking.
I asked about where those things come from to make a point to you that this in fact is the nature of depletion. We have used up more than 1/2 the world’s oil and now it will take more energy (oil, NG, coal) to recover what we can. Like it or not there is an EROEI issue and once we reach 1 to 1 we are FINISHED.
Our food alone is a good indicator to REALITY (a place you know nothing about). In the past we were able to feed ourselves with a positive EROEI but over the years the harsh reality is that we must burn 20,000 calories of fossil energy to be able to EAT ONE STINKING CALORIE worth of food energy! No OIL = No Food for 6.7BILLION
This is the reality of the law of diminishing returns. You are in a FOG and I can not help you out so you are on your own!
PAX
May 16th, 2007 at 12:52 pmWhy is everyone feeding the ego of this Jake character? Ignore him. He’s an idiot.
May 16th, 2007 at 12:55 pmsaywho,
please address the question: Are we at war with Iraq? Or are we at war with factions trying to overthrow Iraq? If the latter question is answered yes then it seems to me we are aiding a country thats smack dab in the middle of a civil war. Did congress authorize the president to make war on Iraqi gov’t’s adversaries or is authorization reqired? Once again. It seems we are willing (or some of us ) to throw civil liberties out the windows because the president says we are at war.
May 16th, 2007 at 12:57 pmWhat do you think the title “COMMANDER†means you DAFT idiot? Bush, when he was elected, became the COMMANDER of the US Army. Once war powers are enacted he (TCIC) can pretty much do as he pleases.
Ah yes, the giveaway. He became CIC of the armed forces. Not the country. But you and your authoritarian ilk can’t make the distinction. I stand by what I said, because you prove it everytime you open your mouth.
May 16th, 2007 at 1:19 pmGorn, trees and vegitation covering the ground are in fact solar cells. Over timeall living things are broken down and after millions of years there is oil, natural gas and coal. It is clear that fossil fuel is simply another solar cell of sorts.
No kidding. Don’t you think it’s time we took our clue from nature about where to find the most direct source of energy, the one that is infinitely available rather than the indirect one that takes massive effort or massive time to renew?
As I said, fabrication and generation are two different things. Eliminating, or vastly curbing, the generation requirement reduces the fabrication impact to a workable and ultimately renewable level.
I’m not saying there aren’t logistical issues with solar power. But in the big picture, the logistics of maintaining the status quo are far worse.
May 16th, 2007 at 1:27 pmAt some point we must realize that our conditions could be worse:
Work camps
Martial law
Gun confiscation
Shutting places of worship
No voting at all
Outlawing congress
Draft
Etc…
Could all be done under Executive Order.
Saywho’s wish list.
May 16th, 2007 at 1:29 pmplease address the question: Are we at war with Iraq? Or are we at war with factions trying to overthrow Iraq? If the latter question is answered yes then it seems to me we are aiding a country that’s(SIC) smack dab in the middle of a civil war. Did congress authorize the president to make war on Iraqi gov’t’s adversaries or is authorization reqired?(SIC) Once again. It seems we are willing (or some of us ) to throw civil liberties out the windows because the president says we are at war.
Comment by env — May 16, 2007 @ 12:57 pm
None of it matters. It’s whatever you say and think it is. You know for a fact that the 109th Congress gave Bush war powers. Congress charged him with a mission to eliminate any WMD, get Saddam, secure the oil, build bases, torture combatants, squeeze Iran, build a pipe in Afghanistan and he seems to be doing all of that. The main issue w/ the “Axis of Evil” is that they started a shift to the Euro Dollar and going to Iraq is a public beating that the neighbors of Iraq are made to see to keep them in line. This is why congress doesn’t end this.
Honestly, do you think that Gorn is right in the opinion that we have “plenty of energy”? All the facts say the opposite. The MILITARY has always been in charge of the USA, it is when we war that we see it in action. Regardless, resources around the globe are STRATEGIG strategic and valuable in many ways. Oil, water, passage, slaves, food, gold are the true reasons for war. War makes up for the violation by civilization that denies natural selection as part of the normal human response.
Kill or be killed is part of natural selection not a standard part of what we know as civilization. We are not even slaves since the more fitting description would be sheep!
Directly to your question we are at war till the war powers are repealed or Bush says he is done with them. Currently we are fighting against an insurgency from what we are being told. I believe we are actually fighting against Iraq’s own “patriots” who detest us in all ways since we invaded their home.
Now do I have any facts to support that claim… No
Do I have any facts that PROOVE that the GOVERNMENT had something to do with 9-11 in a LIHOP or MIHOP way… No
Can Presidents use martial law if they feel it is necessary… Yes
Can we slip into a depression… Yes
The party is OVER
May 16th, 2007 at 1:35 pmWhat you want is FREE ENERGY (like perpetual motion) and that like your post is nothing but wishful thinking.
Imagine all those silly plants who seem to think they have found a way to harness the energy of the sun, but we brilliant humans can’t. So the vegetation in the ground is superior to the vegetation in the White House.
Look, I know this hurts your case, but we do have a perpetual energy system (in this case, I’ll accept the remaining age of the sun to be close enough to perpetual) up in the sky.
It is perpetual. It is not free, nor have I suggested otherwise. Harnessing it requires both intellect and raw materials. The raw materials required are far closer to finite (in terms of need) than the raw materials needed to maintain the status quo.
Our food alone is a good indicator to REALITY (a place you know nothing about).
No need to go all ad hominem. Never did I say that a strategic solar plan would solve all of our problems on this planet. What I said was that it was a strategic plan to gut the source of our foreign policy problem – ME oil dependency. Are you going to explain why I am wrong on that point?
This is the reality of the law of diminishing returns. You are in a FOG and I can not help you out so you are on your own!
More ad hominem. Look, you are totally missing the point in your desire to be all apocalyptic. I outlined a strategic approach to addressing our core national security problem. You want to talk about, what, the unsustainability of human population growth?
Different subject. Maybe Stephen Hawking is correct that the only solution (itself ultimately temporary) is to find a way to colonize other planets. Hey, that’s a strategic discussion for another day.
How about answering to my point, before you give up all hope and jump out a window.
May 16th, 2007 at 1:42 pmDirectly to your question we are at war till the war powers are repealed or Bush says he is done with them.
… or until the government we are fighting is gone… or until Congress cuts off funding… or until Bush is impeached…
You have a way of putting things in black or white terms and ignoring alternatives.
You still haven’t answered to the point of how we can be at war against a government that no longer exists.
May 16th, 2007 at 1:45 pmComment by gorn by any other name — May 16, 2007 @ 1:27 pm
Well Gorn, I have to tell you that frankly, going on and on like this with you is pointless. You believe one thing (whatever that is) and I believe we are in OVERSHOOT. I believe that no matter what we do or what you state there is no way out of this conundrum. So I just assume that ceasing this wasted dialogue with you is for the best. I have no quarrel with you or bone to pick so do me one favor though and just skip my posts OK?
May 16th, 2007 at 1:48 pmI’m out of here for awhile, saywho, but I’ll check back later to see if you’ve answered anything or are just repeating same-o same-o.
May 16th, 2007 at 1:48 pmI believe that no matter what we do or what you state there is no way out of this conundrum.
Sure there is. Answer to the points put in front of you and avoid going off on tangents.
I have no quarrel with you or bone to pick so do me one favor though and just skip my posts OK?
I have not quarrel with you either, but I can’t promise to skip your post if it’s in front of my face. If I see something that strikes me as stupid or narrow-minded, I reserve the right to call you out on it. You certainly are not required to respond.
Out for now…
May 16th, 2007 at 1:51 pmDirectly to your question we are at war till the war powers are repealed or Bush says he is done with them.
… or until the government we are fighting is gone… or until Congress cuts off funding… or until Bush is impeached…
You have a way of putting things in black or white terms and ignoring alternatives.
You still haven’t answered to the point of how we can be at war against a government that no longer exists.
Comment by gorn by any other name — May 16, 2007 @ 1:45 pm
Read what I wrote and then read what you wrote and then realize that there are only the 2 ways i suggested.
Congress must repeal the war powers issued or Bush says it is over.
Impeachment is just more repeal in respect to the war powers. He does not seem to be getting impeached so that point is moot. Should we ever run out of people to shoot in Iraq then I guess that would end the war or start another but that is still the same as Bush says it is over. I don’t think congress can cut off the funding for too long since then Bush could have the whole body arrested as traitors even still that is still the same as a repeal.
So, I guess your main point in this post is that you have the need to be right! You said in yet another post that the Sun/Earth system is perpetual. The only thing perpetual here is the amount of nonsense that you post (though it only feels that way). The Sun converts matter into energy. If we don’t get enough we die and if we get too much we die. Regardless the Sun has a fate too if you will.
We are DEPENDANT on the daily energy (from the Sun) to simply keep on keepin’ on. We are dependent on the stored energy (wood/oil/coal/NG) for everything else like fertilizer, mining, desalinization, transportation, synthetic rubber, steel, etc. This is now the end of the industrial age and the only place to go after that is back to the Stone Age!
Like this…
http://dieoff.org/Olduvai.gif
PAX
May 16th, 2007 at 2:16 pmCongress must repeal the war powers issued or Bush says it is over.
You keep saying the same thing but fail to address the point. We are not at declared war against the government of Iraq. Period.
What we do have is an authorization for the use of force, which states as follows:
SEC. 1. SHORT TITLE.
This joint resolution may be cited as the “Authorization for the Use of Military Force Against Iraq”.
SEC. 2. SUPPORT FOR UNITED STATES DIPLOMATIC EFFORTS
The Congress of the United States supports the efforts by the President to–
(a) strictly enforce through the United Nations Security Council all relevant Security Council resolutions applicable to Iraq and encourages him in those efforts; and
(b) obtain prompt and decisive action by the Security Council to ensure that Iraq abandons its strategy of delay, evasion and noncompliance and promptly and strictly complies with all relevant Security Council resolutions.
SEC. 3. AUTHORIZATION FOR USE OF UNITED STATES ARMED FORCES.
(a) AUTHORIZATION. The President is authorized to use the Armed Forces of the United States as he determines to be necessary and appropriate in order to
(1) defend the national security of the United States against the continuing threat posed by Iraq; and
(2) enforce all relevant United Nations Security Council Resolutions regarding Iraq.
Inasmuch as there is no thread posed by Iraq, and Security Council Resolutions are no longer at issue, there is no authorization for continued hostilities.
I grant you that the Congress seems to be too impotent to use its lawful powers to stop Bush, but that is beside the point. You are wrong. We are not at war with the government of Iraq. Period.
So, I guess your main point in this post is that you have the need to be right!
No, my main point is the one I’ve repeated multiple times but you choose to ignore. The fact that I am either right or wrong is not at all material to my point. Why do you find the need to go ad hominem? I’m pretty sure I haven’t done that to you, at least not directly.
You said in yet another post that the Sun/Earth system is perpetual.
Actually, I was pretty careful to say that I was considering it perpetual for the sake of practical discussion, guessing (correctly) that you would try to be literal about the eventual death of the sun, billions of years in the future.
“The only thing perpetual here is the amount of nonsense that you post”
Ah, and more ad hominem. The last resort of the desperate.
You again avoid my point, which is to consider a strategic approach to ending our “Islamo-Terrorism” problem by take a full circle approach to eliminating our ME oil dependency.
But this hurts your apocalyptic world view, doesn’t it? Don’t worry, we’re all gonna die eventually and even if we manage not to blow up our planet or drain away all of its resources until we starve and freeze to death, the earth still will be incinerating by an exploding sun in some billions of years hence. So, whoa is us, it’s all over, we’re doomed, etc., etc.
May 16th, 2007 at 2:40 pmAnother waste of time with GORN session!
You keep saying the same thing but fail to address the point. We are not at declared war against the government of Iraq. Period.
I never said we are at war w/ Iraq (at least I don’t remember saying that). I said we will never leave Iraq. It happens that we are fighting a war IN Iraq.
No, my main point is the one I’ve repeated multiple times but you choose to ignore. The fact that I am either right or wrong is not at all material to my point. Why do you find the need to go ad hominem? I’m pretty sure I haven’t done that to you, at least not directly.
Here you don’t even state what that point you are attempting to make over and over. I can guess and summarize your basic points to be that:
1y) You say, “There is plenty of energy.”
1m) I stated my view that the party is OVER several times with even links to substantive collaboration.
2y) You say, “There is no war!â€
2m) I say the one Bush is fighting with congressional approval.
3) Simply put if I say day you say night, if I say black you say white… to the point that I said maybe we should agree to disagree.
Actually, I was pretty careful to say that I was considering it perpetual for the sake of practical discussion, guessing (correctly) that you would try to be literal about the eventual death of the sun, billions of years in the future.
I’m literal about the fact that you don’t know what you’re talking about and you’re a classic case of a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. There is no SAKE when you attempt to mince words. The Sun converts matter and releases many kinds of radiation. You want to approach that as perpetual but then your point can not be made since it is not perpetual.
The law of diminishing return applies to the Sun as well as the Earth and all of us on it! You can’t debate this so then you do the Gorn thing and try to turn it around. It would have been better for you to drop the whole thing since you are the one that wanted to pretend it was perpetual. That assumes that I wanted to play some sort of idiotic game with you!
If you brought up Thermodynamics we would end up at the same place since:
First Law of Thermodynamics: Energy can be changed from one form to another, but it cannot be created or destroyed. (WE CAN NOT GET AHEAD)
The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that “in all energy exchanges, if no energy enters or leaves the system, the potential energy of the state will always be less than that of the initial state.” This is also commonly referred to as entropy.(WE CAN’T BREAK EVEN)
You again avoid my point, which is to consider a strategic approach to ending our “Islamo-Terrorism†problem by take a full circle approach to eliminating our ME oil dependency.
This is your great point? This is it simply declaring peace and ending our fossil dependency! Wow, that is so Fin cool how you thought that up (you didn’t though). So then I think I posted someplace that the alternative idea is not a true alternative to fossil fuel since all of the alternatives require OIL/WOODCOAL/NG. Then in countless other posts on many threads I explained that alternatives that have a NEGATIVE EROEI are not even alternatives. Beyond that alternatives that require mining are often net energy losers.
My world view is not of death but one of survival. So many threads and I’m sticking with the main problem we all have, it’s not depleted resources but in fact the issue is what is depleting those resources Gorn?
YOU!
May 16th, 2007 at 3:42 pmAnother waste of time with GORN session!
Perhaps you should take your own advice and skip my posts.
I said we will never leave Iraq. It happens that we are fighting a war IN Iraq.
Um, no, this isn’t what you said. What you said was that “War Powers were issued and no repeal has been issued so the War is On.” Yet the authorization that was granted did not cover the current action.
We are not “fighting a war IN Iraq”. There is a war in Iraq, but it’s not ours, unless we declare war against one side or the other, or both, in which case we either align ourselves with the government there in their civil war, or declare war against it. None of that has happened. Congress did not authorize any such thing. I’m sorry if you have trouble with this fact.
Simply put if I say day you say night, if I say black you say white… to the point that I said maybe we should agree to disagree.
If that makes you feel better, that’s fine. But the next time I trip over a post of yours where you make some claim that Congress has approved the current action, I’m going to call you on it again.
I’m literal about the fact that you don’t know what you’re talking about and you’re a classic case of a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. There is no SAKE when you attempt to mince words. The Sun converts matter and releases many kinds of radiation. You want to approach that as perpetual but then your point can not be made since it is not perpetual.
Here you are just being intentionally dense (and again ad hominem) in order to try to “win”. The sun is, for our practical purposes, an endless source of energy.
Then you want to appeal to the law of thermodynamics? Give me a break. I’m not talking about literal perpetuity and you f*cking well know it. I’ve stated so clearly. I’m talking about pragmatics. The f*cking sun will be radiating energy onto earth for at least 3 billion years after your body has been recycled 10 million times. Chew on that factoid for five seconds.
The Second Law of Thermodynamics states that “in all energy exchanges, if no energy enters or leaves the system, the potential energy of the state will always be less than that of the initial state.†This is also commonly referred to as entropy.(WE CAN’T BREAK EVEN)
Yes, Einstein, we can’t break even. We don’t NEED to f*cking break even, don’t you get that? We could (and do) waste 99.99% of the energy emanating from the sun and it will still continue to radiate for the next 4 billion years or more. Whether or not we waste some of the energy in the process of harnessing part of the energy makes no difference. Unlike fossil fuels, our use of this source has no detrimental impact on the source itself. Indeed, we are ALREADY deriving 100% of our energy from the sun but we are doing it indirectly, so therefore inefficiently.
This is your great point? This is it simply declaring peace and ending our fossil dependency!
Well, aren’t you the smug, condescending $hitbag. Yes, Mr. Doom and Gloom, my point is that significantly curtailing our fossil fuel dependence will dramatically alter the geopolitical process that currently has us in the throes of a battle between theocratic lunatics.
It’s not an original concept (what is??), but my question to you is: what are we doing about it? NOT A DAMNED THING. Our government is doing nothing of stragetic importance in any of its activity. It’s all tactical dressed up as strategy. A strategy must address core problems, while tactics address symptoms. All of the bombs in the world will not address the core problem.
And it is equally true that if we do nothing but sit in huts and eat bugs and $hit berries, we are still not breaking even in the energy game. Some is always lost. And we will all die and eventually the world will end. What exactly is the point of your fatalistic drivel? If it’s all so hopeless, why are you wasting energy powering up your computer? Just kill yourself and be done with it. Oooops – that burns energy too.
My world view is not of death but one of survival.
Show otherwise. What exactly are you advocating? Does it have ANY practical application at all, or are you in a “fog” and “dreaming”, etc.?
So many threads and I’m sticking with the main problem we all have, it’s not depleted resources but in fact the issue is what is depleting those resources
You and Ted Kazinski, I guess.
May 16th, 2007 at 4:56 pmthe issue is what is depleting those resources Gorn?
YOU!
Yes, I deplete resources. So do you. If you believe your own twaddle, disconnect your computer and go live in a shack in Montana. Even so, you will still consume.
I do what I can reasonably do. I drive a hybrid. I telecommute a lot. I don’t have an ostentatious lifestyle. When I am able, I will install solar panels on my home and become a net contributor to the power grid. I will switch to a plug-in hybrid and so avoid fossil fuels in normal driving situations.
If everyone did that, in time we would effectively disarm the ME, removing the venom from the snake if not the fangs.
But yes, I will continue to consume, and there will be a net loss of energy due to physical laws, and entropy will continue unabated. The world will eventually end. And the same is true no matter what you do.
May 16th, 2007 at 5:03 pmWell, aren’t you the smug, condescending $hitbag
This is a clear example of the definition of the ad hominem phrase you toss about Gorn! Now I have not resorted to profanity like you have and these posts are proving that you are not emotionally sound enough to logically debate me.
Clearly I have been more respectful of you then you of me. Normally people come to an understanding about issues. You would learn from me and I would learn from you. After many years in the nuclear energy industry I realized that we have nothing but compounding problems. None of them have real solutions and frankly future generations may just be doomed from the waste from the nuclear industry.
Again, I’m being civil about this but I don’t agree with your points nor have you demonstrated any system or method to take the global population back to a lower EROEI while providing homes, food, clothing, etc. The point is that as the energy shrinks so must the population.
Clearly I wrote “My world view is not of death but one of survival. So many threads and I’m sticking with the main problem we all have, it’s not depleted resources but in fact the issue is what is depleting those resources Gorn? ….. YOU” so your manipulation with, “You and Ted Kazinski(SIC), I guess” is a clue that you Gorn are creating propaganda.
So now Gorn as I started to say at the top of the thread:
The President can declare martial law by Executive Order. The nation in fact is in a war today. You insist that there is no war etc. I just don’t see how we have a debate at all. You can twist the facts like Bush does but bush has the war powers. If you put your energy spent hashing this out to better use you would write the Senators that voted against the Feingold Bill today. More proof that your claim is simply foolish!
PAX
May 16th, 2007 at 5:42 pmThis is a clear example of the definition of the ad hominem phrase you toss about Gorn!
Sure, you pushed me enough that I slapped back. When you attack without warrant, it’s ad hominem. When you smack someone who’s been attacking you, it’s self defense.
Clearly I have been more respectful of you then you of me.
More evidence of delusion. You read “attack” in my original posts, but there was no personal attack, just a challenge to your point. Your responses, however, quickly devolved into personal attacks. That’s the truth. Go back and review the thread, if you have the stomach.
Here’s your first post to me:
As can be seen, you started with an ad hominem attack (”your entire post is at best wishful thinking”) and then you stated the outright falsehood that the failure of the repeal act somehow means that the previous authorization had given carte blanche to the President to do whatever he wants. The previous authorization did not authorize anything other than eliminating the thread of the then-current Iraq government and enforcing WMD resolutions.
Why are you running away from what is plainly evident in the text of this thread?
The President can declare martial law by Executive Order.
Nice red herring, but if you had stuck to this statement, we wouldn’t be arguing. I didn’t say anything about that point at all. NOTHING. I will send you a crisp $100 bill if you can show where I made any comment about Bush’s ability to issue Executive Orders.
You insist that there is no war etc.
Don’t tell me what I said. Clearly there is a war. Clearly we are caught in it. But we are not AT WAR, we did not DECLARE WAR, and Congress did not authorize the current action.
You can twist the facts like Bush
Oh, hey, you can insult my mother, you can insult my intelligence, but dear god don’t compare me to Bush. That’s below the belt. I’m gonna have to look you up and give you a good ol’ fashioned ass-whuppin for that crack.
May 16th, 2007 at 6:02 pmIf everyone did that, in time we would effectively disarm the ME, removing the venom from the snake if not the fangs.
What a fantastic point that shows who the SMUG one is. I’m sure if you followed that whole chain of thought you would have included carbon taxation. In the same breath you attempt to imply that we should all do what you do and the world will improve. You fail to account for the millions upon millions of working class poor who can’t get hybrids since they lack cash, sufficient income, and credit or are strapped with high energy bills and mortgages.
Then like I asked before where do all of the batteries and windings come from? Making these millions upon millions of cars takes a toll on oil reserves since a large part of all cars is plastic. Aluminum is the light weight metal from the sea but it isn’t produced with a (+) EROEI. Where does the energy to destroy all of the old cars come from? Where does food for 6.7B come from Gorn with no oil?
May 16th, 2007 at 6:18 pmDon’t tell me what I said. Clearly there is a war. Clearly we are caught in it. But we are not AT WAR, we did not DECLARE WAR, and Congress did not authorize the current action
Don’t tell me not to tell you! Now you think you can tell me what to do. You’re like the rest of the communists out there! Next you will try to force me to pay a carbon tax!
We are at war and since Bush has war powers he can lay them down or congress can repeal them.
May 16th, 2007 at 6:34 pmIn the same breath you attempt to imply that we should all do what you do and the world will improve.
On this particular point, absolutely. If I didn’t feel it was the right thing to do, why would I be doing it? The mind boggles at your grade school rhetoric.
You fail to account for the millions upon millions of working class poor who can’t get hybrids since they lack cash, sufficient income, and credit or are strapped with high energy bills and mortgages.
I guess you missed this:
As seems to be your habit, you are wrong yet again.
Then like I asked before where do all of the batteries and windings come from? Making these millions upon millions of cars takes a toll on oil reserves since a large part of all cars is plastic.
No kidding. Wow, you’re clever. Did you miss where I intentionally chose to focus on *generation* and not *fabrication*, even while ackowledging the resource and environmental legitimacy of the issue?
What, are we supposed to solve 100% of the problems in a TP thread?
The main issue at hand is how to solve the ME fanaticism problem which is specifically fueled (excuse the pun) by oil consumption primarily for power generation – electricity, cars, trucks, industrial automation, etc. Take a chunk out of that problem and it will be enough to shift the geopolitical equation.
I didn’t say anything about making us all instantly green.
What the hell is your problem, anyway? I must have really shattered your cherished dogma or something.
May 16th, 2007 at 7:15 pmDon’t tell me not to tell you! Now you think you can tell me what to do. You’re like the rest of the communists out there! Next you will try to force me to pay a carbon tax!
Oh man, what a comic. You’ve really gone over the edge.
Matter of fact, I’m mostly a libertarian, so put that in your commie-pipe and smoke it.
What a tool.
We are at war and since Bush has war powers he can lay them down or congress can repeal them.
Yeah, okay. Sit in the corner and talk to yourself. Good boy.
May 16th, 2007 at 7:18 pmYou fail to account for the millions upon millions of working class poor who can’t get hybrids since they lack cash, sufficient income, and credit or are strapped with high energy bills and mortgages.
By the way, if the millions upon millions of non-poor would stop being such dumb overconsuming ba$tards driving around in their tanks, the working poor wouldn’t have to do anything different than what they do now, so don’t give me that lame excuse. For the cost of one of these tank SUVs you could buy a hybrid and bank a bunch of cash.
I drive the SoCal freeways every day (in the HOV lane, middle finger to the rest of ya) and see thousands of late model gas sucking tanks.
As I said waaaaaaaayyyyy back up above, we don’t lack the money (obviously we’re willing to spend it on war) and we don’t lack the technology. We lack the will.
You tired of being smacked yet? Here’s a hint (again) – follow your own advice and stop reading my posts.
May 16th, 2007 at 7:23 pmHere’s your first post to me:
Your entire post there is at best wishful thinking gorn. The “Iraq War Powers Repeal Act of 2006″ (didn’t pass) says all you need to know in its title. To REPEAL something is to take back and WAR POWERS are the object to be taken back regarding THE IRAQ WAR!
As can be seen, you started with an ad hominem attack (â€your entire post is at best wishful thinkingâ€) and then you stated the outright falsehood that the failure of the repeal act somehow means that the previous authorization had given carte blanche to the President to do whatever he wants.
Comment by gorn by any other name — May 16, 2007 @ 7:23 pm
That was not ad hominem at all! The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that the character, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases) have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or the quality of the argument being made).
I posted an opinion that your post was wishful thinking at best then proceeded to explain why. If I used curses or attacked your character but never explained my point then that may be ad hominem however you are wrong again.
Now you claim that my assertion that you are nothing but a communist is in error. You report that you are mostly a libertarian.
Well that comment was from the California Libertarian site and so then based on that I see that you are intolerant of others and must always try to win even petty points. If I had to consider a label for that then your label would be an anal retentive know it all. South Park (cartoon) did an episode recently about Smug Californians Driving Hybrid Cars who enjoy the smell of their own farts. Now I understand what they were getting at on that EP.
Here…
http://www.southparkx.net/episodes/1002-smug-alert
Click “Stream (Watch Now)”
The party is OVER
May 16th, 2007 at 11:10 pmWell that comment was from the California Libertarian site and so then based on that I see that you are intolerant of others and must always try to win even petty points.
You’re a f*cking idiot.
May 17th, 2007 at 1:31 am