Iraq is ‘facing collapse.’
By on May 17th, 2007 at 9:51 am
Iraq is ‘facing collapse.’
New report by the British think tank Chatham House concludes, “There is not ‘one’ civil war, nor ‘one’ insurgency, but several civil wars and insurgencies between different communities in today’s Iraq. … It is now possible to argue that Iraq is on the verge of being a failed state which faces the distinct possibility of collapse and fragmentation.”
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but wait...
they have democracy!! how can they fail??
May 17th, 2007 at 9:54 amWow America is on the verge of being a failed state too.
Us DUHmerikans do good work don't we!
May 17th, 2007 at 9:55 amYes Iraq is a failed state thanks to the Bush Regime and their toadies in the Congress.
May 17th, 2007 at 9:56 amStay the course.
May 17th, 2007 at 9:59 amWait... That was last year.
Oh, I know!
When they stand up, we'll stand down.
No.. wait...
I got it.
If we don't fight them there, they will follow us home.
Clinton's fault!!
May 17th, 2007 at 10:00 am...could we say the same thing about the state of Democracy in America? ("facing collapse")
Politicians supporting wiretapping, prisoner abuse. Widespread election fraud, Habeas Corpus out the window,The Military Commissions Act virtually saying anyone is an 'enemy combatant',
I see morons and bozos like Romney, Guiliani and McJowls on TV supporting these things. What the hell is happening?
As soon as people realize that this 'war on terror' is a phony war and that we've all been sold a bad sale of goods.
Where is the anger? Today is a great day for The American Revolution II.
May 17th, 2007 at 10:02 amThe result is that the U.S. will, if not already, be caught up in this deadly chaos. "Into the valley of death" rode the 160,000.
May 17th, 2007 at 10:03 amHeckuva job Georgie!
May 17th, 2007 at 10:04 amBut Kay, they WON a battle against abortion! Isn't that all that matters?
May 17th, 2007 at 10:05 amOn the verge? It's already a failed state. As usual the self-appointed experts draw conclusions that anyone who can read a newspaper knew two years ago.
May 17th, 2007 at 10:07 amI'm no think tank but I could figure out Iraq is falling apart. The President and his cronies are unable to see what's this obvious to the entire world.
May 17th, 2007 at 10:08 amObviously Bush and Cheney are unfit to hold any office. And congress could boost it's approval ratings by initiating impeachment today.
Such hypocrites :
The 'do-gooders' who are against Abortion, or more importantly, a woman's choice to do what she wants, are the first to send our men and women into battle to fight for Darth Cheney's oil.
May 17th, 2007 at 10:09 amNo, no... Exley told me that the US pacific project for the ME stabilization would work!
May 17th, 2007 at 10:09 amStupid roadside bombers.
May 17th, 2007 at 10:14 amStupid roadside bombers.
Comment by CompTROLLER V-1 — May 17, 2007 @ 10:14 a
Spoken like an expert on stupid!
May 17th, 2007 at 10:16 amShane
Isn't it better to be a tanked thinker than a think tanker?
May 17th, 2007 at 10:17 amMission Accomplished.
May 17th, 2007 at 10:17 amWhen they talk about collapse, they only refer to Baghdad, within the Green Zone. The rest of Iraq is long gone.
May 17th, 2007 at 10:29 amComment by Can-O-Whoop-Ass
I know, pal, the bombers blowing up innocent women and children couldn't possibly have anything to do with this. Support the troops? My A**! Why don't you go ahead and blame them some more, stupid liberal!
May 17th, 2007 at 10:30 amJuan, you need some new material, dude. I have been saying for almost a year now that the Iraqis have failed to capitalize on the golden opportunity that the U.S.-led coalition gave them when we overthrew Saddam's murderous totalitarian dictatorship. As I said many months ago, "I don’t believe U.S. troops should be kept in the middle of a civil war. The Iraqi people were handed a golden opportunity and gift by the U.S. and Coalition when we deposed Saddam. We gave the Iraqis every opportunity to create a democratic and civilized society following our overthrow of Saddam’s tyrannical rule. Rather than making the most of this opportunity, the Iraqis have instead seemingly chosen to indulge in the violent settling ancient ethnic, religious, and tribal grievances. If that is what they choose to do, the U.S. should withdraw our troops. You can lead the proverbial horse to water, but you cannot make it drink. We have done all we can for the Iraqis. The rest is up to them."
May 17th, 2007 at 10:30 amThere are Iraqi citizens who've said they appreciate U.S. protection. I wouldn't want to leave them behind.
May 17th, 2007 at 10:35 am"You can lead the proverbial horse to water, but you cannot make it drink."
it's because the water isn't clean.
p.s.--dear mike pence, does this mean that indiana is also 'facing collapse'?
May 17th, 2007 at 10:37 amExley, can the bullshit. Just exactly how do you equate the total destruction of the Iraqi infrastructure with a "golden opportunity?"
This is probably the stupidest thing you've said to-date.
Don't bother to reply...you can be sure I won't bother to read it.
May 17th, 2007 at 10:38 amDon't the Iraqis understand that we're destroying their country for their own good?
May 17th, 2007 at 10:42 am#21...........
May 17th, 2007 at 10:42 amYou're going to need a lot more helicopters to pick them off the roofs of the Green Zone than are available.....
Comment by Exley — May 17, 2007 @ 10:30 am
Gosh, you're far better than Jim Carrey in 'Dumb and Dumber'.
May 17th, 2007 at 10:43 amIraq being a failed state is great!
May 17th, 2007 at 10:44 amIt means then Sunni and Shia Jihadists are going to kill each other instead of us!
This is great news!
Let's get US troops out so they can kill each other!
I thought I heard someone say, just a couple of years ago that, "the insurgency, if you will, is in its final throes."
You dont suppose Deadeye Dick was lying to us about that do you?
May 17th, 2007 at 10:44 amEx...I was just messing around. Still, you were and are wrong about a lot of issues. Iraq one of them. The truth will get to you some day.
May 17th, 2007 at 10:45 amIraq was never given any opportunity by Bush Regime. They invaded Iraq and occupied it to control the OIL only. They did not even employ the Iraqis to build anything either.
May 17th, 2007 at 10:46 amGosh, you’re far better than Jim Carrey in ‘Dumb and Dumber’.
Comment by Evil Spaniard
Heh. :D
May 17th, 2007 at 10:46 amYou beat me to it stonehinge. Exley has already admitted the mistakes made in exectuting this military adventure but hasn't swallowed the bitter pill that it wasn't thought out well in the first place.
We initiated a preemptive strike against a third world military. Who thought we wouldn't kick ass. There was no planning for the day after. When the key criteria was faith to Bush instead of clear thinking the peace was lost.
So we didn't like Saddam. It's all agreed he was a bad guy doing bad things. Our government didn't think it through and we all have been paying since.
May 17th, 2007 at 10:49 amSorry, but automatic withdrawal is a recipe for disaster. You have a case for reasonable benchmarks, though. Dems better fund the troops or else the voters will squash them with more ethically-able Republicans in 2008. In 2006, the American people didn't vote for the troops to suffer.
May 17th, 2007 at 10:49 amGosh, you’re far better than Jim Carrey in ‘Dumb and Dumber’.
Comment by Evil Spaniard — May 17, 2007 @ 10:43 am
I cant still believe that the most powerful country in the world holds the most uniformed and misled people in the world. Every single Nicaraguan kid could tell you that Iraq was going to be a huge fiasco and Saddam didnt hold any WMDs. But...I guess it is more important to watch the Mets and its doped players than reading non-US news.
May 17th, 2007 at 10:49 am#28 Juan,
Hey, I have acknowledged for a long time that I was wrong to support the liberation of Iraq. In the months and weeks in the run up to the war, I would debate this with my friends who opposed the invasion. They said there was no way the Iraqis would be able to create a tolerant, civilized, democratic society. I disagreed. They were right. I was wrong. The U.S. is in a worse position now than it was before the war.
May 17th, 2007 at 10:51 amIt's continues to amaze me, but Gregor, Juan and Zooey leave more integrity in their stool than these ignorant trolls bring to this forum.
May 17th, 2007 at 10:53 amZooey,
We are not the ones destroying Iraq. It is the insurgents, Shiite militias, and Al Qaeda who are destroying Iraq and ruining any opportunity the Iraqi people had to create a democratic and tolerant society following their liberation from Saddam.
May 17th, 2007 at 10:53 am"Sorry, but automatic withdrawal is a recipe for disaster...In 2006, the American people didn’t vote for the troops to suffer.
Comment by CompTROLLER V-1 — May 17, 2007"
we can't let the troops suffer, therefore they must stay in iraq.
May 17th, 2007 at 10:55 ambrilliant logic.
hey compTROLLer,
where is anyone blaming the troops? You are a coward. you hide behind the troops, you hide behind the dead of 9-11. you and your ilk are scum. may you rot in hell with falwell
May 17th, 2007 at 10:57 am"We are not the ones destroying Iraq."
did you sleep through 'shock and awe'?
May 17th, 2007 at 10:57 amExley > Bush is responsible for igniting the chaos in Iraq. He wanted the OIL so badly that he did not think about what would happen later.
May 17th, 2007 at 10:58 amHiB,
Yo wrote, "Exley has already admitted the mistakes made in exectuting this military adventure but hasn’t swallowed the bitter pill that it wasn’t thought out well in the first place."
Well, then, you have not been reading my posts very closely. I have been saying for months now that this was not well thought out and that innumerable mistakes have been made.
But I disagree with you when you say the military operation was not handled well. Deposing Saddam took less than six weeks with minimal American and civilain casualties. It was the aftermath of the liberation that has been the disaster.
May 17th, 2007 at 10:59 amWe are not the ones destroying Iraq.
Comment by Exley
Oh, come on! Be responsible for something in your life. Your government has starved to death that little country since Gulf war. Dont you look at the news at some point? You bombed a thirld world country, Ex. Yes, a defenseless country. What about WP and clusterbombs...those were from Al-Qaeda, too? Get a grip of reality, stop the we are good, they are bad crap. Be an adult.
May 17th, 2007 at 11:00 amNonsense, Exley. The Shiite militias and "Al Qaeda" were all created exactly for this purpose during the early days of the occupation. If you'd bother to educate yourself with something better than the daily mindfog from Limpballs and The Manne, you'd know better. I'd give you the links, but you won't read them.
May 17th, 2007 at 11:01 amThe U.S. is in a worse position now than it was before the war.
Comment by Exley
There is a concept that must be probably evading you. Respect.
If you want respect, you have to show respect. As a human, as a society and as a state, also. If you go invading countries, you will be in a bad position,no matter how many armed conflicts you win.
Respect people, Ex. Just do that.
May 17th, 2007 at 11:02 amComment by bob (not the hacker)
Heads up: I wasn't talking to you. Hopefully never will. You're comments are vague, tiresome, and rather inconceivable, really.
May 17th, 2007 at 11:03 am"I guess it is more important to watch the Mets..."
Says the man who watches...(shiver)....soccer.
May 17th, 2007 at 11:03 amExley, your assuming the Iraqis ever actually wanted democracy.
History shows they don't want Democracy, Communism or British imperialism.
May 17th, 2007 at 11:05 amRe #20
What do you think would happen if the US Federal government went into one of our states and removed the police, removed the government, destroyed the infrastructure and forced the people to live under constant harrassment without the basic necessities of life for years on end. How long would it take that US state to resemble the situation in Iraq?
Now instead of the US Federal Gov't make it a foreign fighting force that has been seen as meddlesome enemy of our government and way of life.
This was a huge mistake (made worse because we did it on purpose) and we are all going to pay for it with our pocketbooks and with increased insecurity at home for generations. We can go home now or go home later but nothing is going to change except for more dead American soldiers.
The current administration shouldn't be impeached they should be shot for crimes against our country and humanity.
May 17th, 2007 at 11:06 amNice to see you, Juan. Zooey, stay tough. Sorry I haven't posted much but I have a lot of crazy stuff to handle right now. Gotta go.
May 17th, 2007 at 11:06 am#42
Actually, Juan, It was Saddam who starved his own country in the 1990s. Not the United Nations (You seem to forget that it was the United Nations who imposed economic sanctions on Iraq, not simply the United States...Or didn't that vaunted "non-U.S. news" tell you that?)
May 17th, 2007 at 11:07 amJT...bravo!!! Actually, we could use some democracy right here in the old USA.
May 17th, 2007 at 11:08 amSays the man who watches…(shiver)….soccer.
Comment by Exley
The most popular sport in the world, thank you. ;)
You reply nothing to the other part of the post.
May 17th, 2007 at 11:08 amHeads up: I wasn’t talking to you. Hopefully never will. You’re comments are vague, tiresome, and rather inconceivable, really.
Comment by CompTROLLER V-1
Blog meet CompTROLLER, CompTROLLER meet a Blog.
Psst. This is not a chat with private messages.
May 17th, 2007 at 11:09 amJT8D-15A,
No, I would say I "assumed" (past tense) that the Iraqis wanted democracy. Most civilized people do.
However, you are correct. Given how they have acted since the overthrow of Saddam -- slaughtering eachother over absurb religious and ethnic differences -- it now seems clear they do not want democracy. They simply want to indulge in these ancient feuds. Sad.
May 17th, 2007 at 11:09 amI've been reading that the military is planning for a mass casualty event in Iraq. It could happen.
Imagine 100,000 armed Iraqis swarming over the Green Zone and inundating it. Our troops couldn't possibly kill them all.
If these warring factions in Iraq ever declare a truce with each other and join together to fight the invaders, our troops are in deep sh*t.
We may already have had a 300-dead mass casualty event in Iraq last october at Camp Falcon that may be covered up by the Pentagon. A Congressman is demanding an investigation.
May 17th, 2007 at 11:11 am#14 / #19 ~ "Roadside bombs" as most people will interpret it refers to the IEDs on the corridor from Baghdad to Kuwait. That hasn't been a factor in restoring peace. We take our lumps occasionally, but it hasn't kept anyone from getting into Baghdad, k?
The problem is with the people themselves.
Let's say we have Rush Limbaugh, Sandra Bernhardt, Bill O'Reilly, Moby, Henry Rollins, Al Gore, and Chuck Norris all living in a huge, luxurious apartment owned by Jesse Ventura. One day Jesse runs afoul of the Property management Association and skips town, leaving the normally contentions but restrained residents without the forceful peacekeeping talents of The Body.
How long before Al Gore and Bill O'Reilly are at each others' throat? Who keeps Rush Limbaugh from hoarding all the twinkies? What stops Chuck from kicking everyone in the head? Will someone tell Moby to turn down the music? Rollins hasn't said anything yet... but the weaker members of the herd are making sure he's well-fed.
The solution thusfar has been for the Association to send in Richard Mancuso, but tell him to stay in the kitchen and practice his Dr. Phil imitation. Meanwhile, Sandra Bernhardt wants a private bedroom, and the neighbors across the hall are taunting Mancuso.
In this scenario, your roadside bombs are tacks left anonymously on the toilet seat by one of the tenants. Painful and distracting, but not exactly the biggest problem.
May 17th, 2007 at 11:11 amNice to see you, Juan. Zooey, stay tough. Sorry I haven’t posted much but I have a lot of crazy stuff to handle right now. Gotta go.
Comment by stonehinge
Hope you get here more often.
Ex, you must have forgotten the UNESCO award recieved by Saddam for having his living standards better than any other arab country before the invasion to Kuwait. I dont defend him. Im posting facts.
BTW, I dont just watch soccer. I play it.
May 17th, 2007 at 11:12 amSaddam starved his own people -Exley
Meanwhile Chevron, where Condi was employed, was buying Oil from Saddam above the set price.
Sanctions don't work very well that way Exley.
May 17th, 2007 at 11:15 amBTW, Chuck Norris is an asshole.
He's a Christo-Fascist supporting putting a Christo-Fascist Bible class in public schools.
It's not a good Bible class, its Christo-Fascist Dominionist propaganda.
May 17th, 2007 at 11:15 amWe 'gave' the Iraqis nothing. We imposed, death, destruction and chaos. We went to war with Iraq based on the claim they were about to attack us. That was a lie.
We did not go into to 'free' 'liberate' or 'bring democracy' to it. All those reasons came long after the claims of emanate threat were exposed for the lies they were.
Remember the words of Donald Rumsfeld as the entire nation was being looted, 'free people are free to do bad things' which totally ignored UN international treaties that say, those who invade a nation are responsible to maintain order within the nation they have invaded. We did not do that.
We have hamstrung the Iraqi government by making laws they cannot supercede. The have no real say in their own government. Our laws reign supreme when it comes to commerce, contractors and military.
Bush's goal is a failed state. With a failed state there is unlimited money to be made.
May 17th, 2007 at 11:15 am"You reply nothing to the other part of the post."
Well, I think the other postings contain replies to the points you made.
And yes, it is Al Qaeda, the Shiite militias, and the "insurgents" who are destroying Iraq. They are the ones setting off car bombs in marketplaces, universities, and mosques. It is they who are attacking and destroying rebuilding projects in Iraq. It is they who are dumping the bodies of their kidnap victims in the middle of the street for all to see as part of a terror campaign.
Ever since liberation, the U.S. has been attempting to rebuild Iraq and help them create a democratic society. Unfortunately, Al Qaeda and the "insurgents" have done all they can to stymie and defeat those efforts.
May 17th, 2007 at 11:16 am"BTW, I dont just watch soccer. I play it."
Impressive...I mean, it is an incredibly boring and dumb sport. But it does require some serious athleticism. I'll give you that.
May 17th, 2007 at 11:17 am"Sanctions don’t work very well that way Exley."
I agree. Actually, I have never been a big supporter of the use of economic sanctions against any country. I believe they wind up hurting the people far more than the governments.
May 17th, 2007 at 11:19 amTom3 > eventually the Iraqis will probably swarm into the Green Zone and kill everybody inside. If US Senators like McCain are there at the time, then they will be slain too. Bush is responsible for all the mayhem and destruction in Iraq.
May 17th, 2007 at 11:20 amOk, Ex. I guess you have it all figured out.
May 17th, 2007 at 11:22 amIsn’t it better to be a tanked thinker than a think tanker?
Comment by PatrioticLiberalChristian(PLC) — May 17, 2007 @ 10:17 am
Only after noon! :~)
May 17th, 2007 at 11:32 amStupid roadside bombers.
Comment by CompTROLLER V-1 — May 17, 2007 @ 10:14 a
There wasn't a single case of car bombs or roadside bombs until we invaded.
May 17th, 2007 at 11:34 amThink Progress: Show some nads and produce one plan of how to improve the situation in Iraq. Cut and run is not an option.............oh yeah, it might be to you guys. I forgot what website I was on. That would surely solve all problems. Think Progress = Neville Chamberlain. Congratulations......loved by everyone.....lol.
May 17th, 2007 at 11:35 amEric > go join the military to fight in Iraq or shut the hell up!
May 17th, 2007 at 11:40 amThink Progress: Show some nads and produce one plan of how to improve the situation in Iraq. Cut and run is not an option. Comment by Eric
Stay the course? Turn a corner? Thats a plan? You recall why Bush Sr. cut and ran don't you?
May 17th, 2007 at 11:45 amWhat is your plan Eric? Drop some more bombs? Shock and Awe? Torture? Did any of those work? Million dollar missiles? Huh? 4 years of stay the course? Did it work in Vietnam?
May 17th, 2007 at 11:48 amEric
Getting out of Iraq would improve the situation there - definitely for our troops, probably for our status with the rest of the world, and maybe even for the actual chaos in the country itself.
How about you having some nads and tell us how the continued occupation has benefits worth the cost? And don't say things are going well there now that you have indicated that improvement is required.
May 17th, 2007 at 11:49 amI would debate this with my friends who opposed the invasion. They said there was no way the Iraqis would be able to create a tolerant, civilized, democratic society.
Comment by Exley — May 17, 2007 @ 10:51 am
Well Exley perhaps they could see by talking to you how hard it is for some people to be tolerant, civilized and democratic.
May 17th, 2007 at 11:54 amI wasn’t talking to you. Hopefully never will. You’re comments are vague, tiresome, and rather inconceivable, really.
Comment by CompTROLLER V-1 — May 17, 2007 @ 11:03 am
And so you DO understand how we feel about your posts. So feel free to leave at any time.
May 17th, 2007 at 11:57 amImpressive…I mean, it is an incredibly boring and dumb sport. But it does require some serious athleticism. I’ll give you that.
Comment by Exley — May 17, 2007 @ 11:17 am
Just because you don't understand it doesn't make it boring. I'm sure you think opera and jazz are also boring.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:00 pmZooey,
We are not the ones destroying Iraq. It is the insurgents, Shiite militias, and Al Qaeda who are destroying Iraq and ruining any opportunity the Iraqi people had to create a democratic and tolerant society following their liberation from Saddam.
Comment by Exley — May 17, 2007 @ 10:53 am
We invaded a country for no good reason, other than the fact that they are sitting on "our" oil.
They didn't ask us for help deposing Saddam.
They didn't ask us to liberate them.
They didn't ask us to impose democracy on them.
They didn't ask us to teach them our version of tolerance.
Al Qaeda was not there.
The insurgents didn't exist.
But they are both there now! Why? Because the various factions are taking advantage of the chaos and destruction WE created.
Stop with your Dream World illusions.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:02 pmNice to see you, Juan. Zooey, stay tough. Sorry I haven’t posted much but I have a lot of crazy stuff to handle right now. Gotta go.
Comment by stonehinge
Take care, stonehinge.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:03 pmShow some nads and produce one plan of how to improve the situation in Iraq.
Comment by Eric — May 17, 2007 @ 11:35 am
Well impeach Bush and Cheney, install Pelosi, and once Bush can't veto resonable funding we follow timelines and benchmarks and try NOT to get into a war with Iran.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:03 pmImpressive…I mean, it is an incredibly boring and dumb sport. But it does require some serious athleticism. I’ll give you that.
Comment by Exley
Baseball is almost as boring as golf.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:04 pm"Baseball is almost as boring as golf."
How...DARE...you??!!!
Zooey, you and I have had our occasional differences in the past. But you have crossed the line, madam!!!!
May 17th, 2007 at 12:10 pmHeckuva job dumbfu(k chymp.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:10 pmToday, while petting his favorite British poodle, the chymp stated that history will judge him, he doesn't give a shittle about what people think today.
His vision is that years from now the ME will be a garden of freedom and democracy because of his noble efforts.
He is fu(king certifiably out of his mind.
"But they are both there now! Why? Because the various factions are taking advantage of the chaos and destruction WE created."
I don't 100% disagree with you there, Zooey. In fact, there is not much one can disagree with there. The question is now is how do we go about making the situation better?
May 17th, 2007 at 12:15 pm#67 ~ Ok, since you're a provocative idiot and incapable of coming up with any other plan than "keep killing people," I'll do it for you.
- Immediately call for the evacuation of all contractors and foreign citizens inside Iraq. Declare the end of their protection in 30 days.
- Redeploy all military personnel to Kuwait. Continue troop rotations in Kuwait, but do not enter Iraq.
- Transfer the oversight role of the Iraqi government to a Triad composed of representatives from Turkey, Iran, and Saudi Arabia. Pay the balance of all contracts forward to a UN fund to distribute reconstruction money only on unanimous request from the Triad.
- Declare US involvement in Iraq at an end. Apologize for improperly addressing all of the conflicts in Iraq, in favor of focusing on the largest perceived danger. Recommit the US to working to create peace in Iraq - through the UN. Make substantial donations to any internationally recognized organization that is actively working to improve the living conditions of Iraqi citizens.
Gee, that wasn't so hard. Looks structured, feels repentant, removes troops from immediate danger, and hands over responsibility to the people with the most to lose, while not entirely removing our military presence from the theater.
Is it perfect? No. But it would have been a whole lot easier if we'd planned for this before we started destroying the country.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:17 pmThe question is now is how do we go about making the situation better?
Comment by Exley
Get your troops out of harm´s way.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:19 pmThink Progress: Show some nads and produce one plan of how to improve the situation in Iraq. Cut and run is not an option
Comment by Ericthederilict — May 17, 2007 @ 11:35 am
Do you mean "cut and run", as in your post?
If not, please explain, in detail, why it is not an option, or are you just spouting to be heard (seen)?
I have a solution for the Iraqi crisis that our dear leaders have us so involved. Required Taxation!
That's right, 10% on taxable income from everyone.
Not only would the soldiers get the equipment and safety they so desperately need, but it would also drastically decrease our record deficit.
(Point to ponder: Why is the military not required to have United States made products? Is the military outsourcing, also?)
Of course, the rightwing chickenhawks would have a complete hissy fit regarding taxation, and would vote "no", and thus pave the way for our soldiers to come home, preventing any more children growing up fatherless (or motherless) due to this poorly planned, hastily lead "confrontation....occupation"
See, it's a win/win situation for all.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:20 pm#83, Juan
Yeah, That is great for our troops. But what about the innocent Iraqis over there who will be left behind to deal with the sectarian violence? Do we just desert them? When we left SE Asia in the early 1970s, it was wonderful for our troops, but those left behind had to deal with the horror of the communists in Vietnam and the Khmer Rogue in Cambodia. Millions were killed. That can't be allowed to happen in Iraq.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:24 pmThat can’t be allowed to happen in Iraq.
Comment by Exley
What? That thousands die? Already happening. Your troops are not making any difference.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:35 pm#83, Juan
Yeah, That is great for our troops. But what about the innocent Iraqis over there who will be left behind to deal with the sectarian violence? Do we just desert them? When we left SE Asia in the early 1970s, it was wonderful for our troops, but those left behind had to deal with the horror of the communists in Vietnam and the Khmer Rogue in Cambodia. Millions were killed. That can’t be allowed to happen in Iraq.
Comment by Exley — May 17, 2007 @ 12:24 pm
I agree that many people will suffer when we pull our troops out of Iraq. But given that for the 4 years we have been there the situation has not improved, how will pulling out now be any different than pulling out in another 4 years or however long we wait? People are going to die and it will be terrible and it will be completely our fault. All we are currently doing is postponing the inevitable.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:35 pmThe Iraqi people were handed a golden opportunity and gift by the U.S. and Coalition when we deposed Saddam.
A power vacuum is not a gift.
You can lead the proverbial horse to water, but you cannot make it drink.
Funny you should mention water - we're still having problems leading more than one-fourth of the proverbial Iraqis to water. If I was them, I wouldn't want to drink it either, what with only 49 out of 136 water and sanitation projects having been completed.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:51 pm#82
I don't think most of your ideas are very realistic. While I agree that "keep killing people" is not a strategy, "immediate withdrawal" is simply impossible, and even if it were possible I think it would actually make world opinion of our country worse than it is now.
- Redeploy all military personnel to Kuwait. Continue troop rotations in Kuwait, but do not enter Iraq.
Most estimates I've read say this would take 8-10 months. That's how long it would take for an"immediate withdrawal" of more than 250,000 military personnel and contractors and all the vehicles and equipment. It's not political, it's a physical reality.
- Transfer the oversight role of the Iraqi government to a Triad composed of representatives from Turkey, Iran, and Saudi Arabia. Pay the balance of all contracts forward to a UN fund to distribute reconstruction money only on unanimous request from the Triad.
This would put the future of Iraq in the hands of the two countries that are fighting a proxy war with each other through Shia and Sunnis in Iraq, plus a third party that would really like to take care of its Kurdish problem. I think that might not be such a good idea. I agree that all three of these countries - and Syria - need to be at the table in determining the future of Iraq, but they should not be the controllers of the country.
- Declare US involvement in Iraq at an end. Apologize for improperly addressing all of the conflicts in Iraq, in favor of focusing on the largest perceived danger. Recommit the US to working to create peace in Iraq - through the UN. Make substantial donations to any internationally recognized organization that is actively working to improve the living conditions of Iraqi citizens.
With you on the apologies and the increased UN involvement, but I don't think US involvement should end entirely. This is not a problem we can throw money at. It needs to be a truly multinational effort, with a lot of involvement by Iraq's neighbors. The root of most problems is political, and the US still has an important role as a neutral facilitator. We - and more importantly the Iraqi leaders - need to be talking to the Jaysh el-Mahdi and the other organizations and keeping them involved as legitimate political movements.
May 17th, 2007 at 1:17 pmOoh, Zooey, now you have really pissed off Exley! Are you scared?
May 17th, 2007 at 1:23 pmAnd BTW, I totally agree, baseball is incredibly boring (not as bad as golf, which is the lowest mark).
Soccer rules!
Or "futbol" as Juan C probably knows it as...
May 17th, 2007 at 1:23 pmOoh, Zooey, now you have really pissed off Exley! Are you scared?
And BTW, I totally agree, baseball is incredibly boring (not as bad as golf, which is the lowest mark).
Soccer rules!
Comment by SKdeA
Yeah, I'm whelmed by his indignation. *yawn*
You like how he completely skipped over my comment to him at #75?
May 17th, 2007 at 1:31 pm$92,
No, I didn't, Zooey....See posting #81 at 12:15 pm.
May 17th, 2007 at 1:44 pmSorry, I missed it.
I don’t 100% disagree with you there, Zooey. In fact, there is not much one can disagree with there. The question is now is how do we go about making the situation better?
Comment by Exley — May 17, 2007 @ 12:15 pm
By apologizing, getting the f*ck out of there, and by setting up a "Marshall Plan" to repair the damage we've done. That's a good start.
May 17th, 2007 at 2:19 pmZooey,
Yeah, but any type of Marshall Plan-type reconstruction NOW wouldn't work...American-led or financed reconstruction projects would be (and are) a constant target of insurgents and Al Qaeda. The rebuilding can only happen after the violence ends.
May 17th, 2007 at 2:44 pm#89 ~ A few edits on the logistics, granted. 90 days, six months, whatever. There's more of a rush to set a date than meet a date.
As far as declaring the end of involvement, the declaration is important. Whether we intend to not use any military force? That's why we retreated to Kuwait and are rotating out, not going home altogether. If we need to build permanent bases, do it in Kuwait.
The Triad-Iraq Government deal basically separates out the money from the thieves, and any expense requires the three to play nice. The can't exercise any control unless they're unanimous, and all the bad behavior is based on punishing someone at the table (sunni, shia, kurd). I think it would work. Maybe it wouldn't. But it gets us off the hook, and puts the problem in the hands of her neighbors.
May 17th, 2007 at 3:21 pmPlenty of 'glue' in that flypaper.
The 'blame Iraqi gov't' LIE is OK for politics. But with 130,000 mercenaries in country, with a total legal waiver, there are in fact SIX major factions in Iraq: Sunni, Shia, Kurd, CENTCOM, Al Qaeda, and mercs.
The last two are completely uncontrolled by law. BOTH have been deployed to Iraq by George Bush.
May 17th, 2007 at 3:26 pmBefore Bushco invaded Iraq, Al-Qaqaa held 184 metric tons of HMX, the primary high-explosive used in nuclear weapons, along with 200 tons of other high-explosives.
“The munitions at Al Qaqaa were at most around 0.06 percent of the total.â€
“David Kay, the former chief US weapons inspector said that looting was so bad during the fall of 2003 that Iraqis were going in at night individually and in trucks. “There were just not enough boots on the ground, and the military didn’t give it a high enough priority to stop the looting. Tens of thousands of tons of ammunition were being looted, and that is what is fueling the insurgency.â€7
“The Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) confirmed Kay’s account and in a 9 November 2003 DIA report, noted the vast majority of explosives and ordnance used in anti- coalition improvised explosive devices have come from pilfered Iraqi ammunition stockpiles and prewar established caches.â€
“US military commanders in autumn 2003 estimated that Iraqi military sites contained 650,000 to one 1,000,000 tons of various types of munitions and that Al Qaqaa was one of 130 known weapon and ammunition storage sites in Iraq.â€
http://www.strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pdffiles/ksil72.pdf
“What if the Al Qaeda members infiltrated across the borders of Iraq the way they are in Afghanistan? Then the question wouldn't be, Is Saddam Hussein going to share these weapons with the terrorist group? The terrorist groups would have an enhanced ability to just walk in there and get them.â€
— VP Al Gore, September 2002
http://www.commonwealthclub.org/archive/02/02-09gore-speech.html
May 17th, 2007 at 3:41 pm(Wordpress [?] has some funny ideas of linearity. Sorry for the double-posting)
May 17th, 2007 at 3:44 pm"It is now possible to argue that Iraq is on the verge of being a failed state which faces the distinct possibility of collapse and fragmentation.â€
Iraq has been a failed state for decades.
May 17th, 2007 at 4:09 pmZooey,
Yeah, but any type of Marshall Plan-type reconstruction NOW wouldn’t work…American-led or financed reconstruction projects would be (and are) a constant target of insurgents and Al Qaeda. The rebuilding can only happen after the violence ends.
Comment by Exley
We have to start somewhere, Exley. We have to make it as right as we'll ever be able to make it.
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