Retired generals blast torture supporters.
Retired generals blast torture supporters.
Days after several conservative presidential candidates received audience applause for endorsing torture, former Marine Corps commandant Gen. Charles Krulak and former U.S. CentCom commander Gen. Joseph Hoar write:
Fear can be a strong motivator. It led Franklin Roosevelt to intern tens of thousands of innocent U.S. citizens during World War II; it led to Joseph McCarthy’s witch hunt, which ruined the lives of hundreds of Americans. And it led the United States to adopt a policy at the highest levels that condoned and even authorized torture of prisoners in our custody. [...]
The American people are understandably fearful about another attack like the one we sustained on Sept. 11, 2001. But it is the duty of the commander in chief to lead the country away from the grip of fear, not into its grasp. Regrettably, at Tuesday night’s presidential debate in South Carolina, several Republican candidates revealed a stunning failure to understand this most basic obligation. [...]
If we forfeit our values by signaling that they are negotiable in situations of grave or imminent danger, we drive those undecideds into the arms of the enemy. This way lies defeat, and we are well down the road to it.
UPDATE: On a different note, Stephen Colbert offers his take last night:
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If we take FEAR away from the Republican candidates, what do they have left? Guiliani was later heard to say, “The Fear, Moe, what happened to the Fear?”
May 17th, 2007 at 11:58 amWhy do highly decorated generals hate America?
May 17th, 2007 at 11:59 amand so do i! every good person should oppose the use of torture in any way possible. Free countries don’t torture, we’re supposed to rise above that type of behavior.
But, out of fear, anger, or lust for war and revenge, people want to use this disgusting method of interrogation. It’s time for that to stop.
plus, there’s not a thing in the Constitution – you know, the law – that allows the government to torture. period.
Some reading:
“Should the US Military be Allowed to use Torture?”
May 17th, 2007 at 12:00 pmhttp://www.populistamerica.com/should_the_u_s__military_be_allowed_to_use_torture
But trolls like torture. Let’s not forget the sadism angle here.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:01 pm…not that trolls aren’t fearful, bedwetting pussies…
May 17th, 2007 at 12:02 pmWhere was this letter posted besides Think Progress?
May 17th, 2007 at 12:03 pmSo when are these courageous retired officers going to raise the Patriot Rebel Forces to fight the Fascist Right?
May 17th, 2007 at 12:03 pm#5 – VerbalKint – I don’t think anyone could’ve said that any better…
May 17th, 2007 at 12:04 pm#5 – Indeed. The Grand Old Pantloaders as I prefer to call them nowadays.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:07 pmWhere was this letter posted besides Think Progress?
Comment by billjpa
Links to Washington Post.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:08 pmIt is scary that the repugs are so willing to torture. Even saying it, is an indication of their warped world view. As one general officer said, the only people who want to torture, like the idea of torture.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:08 pmI don’t want any of them running the country.
I would like to see a debate between these generals and Mr. Giuliani, Mr. Tancredo, and Mr Romney. Perhaps they need to do a speaking tour of South Carolina, judging by the debate audience’s reaction to Giuliani’s comments.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:08 pmRepublicans like Giuliani exist by promoting fear and the need to torture terrorists. Rudy likes to dress in drag, so he is not a macho guy and cannot lead America.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:09 pmVeralkint, have to agree that they seem to enjoy the torture of brown people.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:09 pmWell said. Let’s not let fear rule our reason.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:09 pmInteresting that all the Repub candidates who have not served were the ones backing more torture. McCain, who has served and been tortured, was the one standing alone among the rest of those losers saying that if we torture others it will only put our troops in greater danger.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:09 pmThese guys are 100% correct on this issue. As a South Carolinian and USC graduate I was mortified when I heard the applause Guiliani received. This fear-mongering is wrong, and it is embarrassing and essentially un-American that we should pander to it and otherwise encourage anything less than a morally right and personally strong position in opposition to those that threaten us.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:10 pmThose who will sacrifice thier rights for a security, deserve neither. [Paraphrasing Benjamin Franklin]
A Good warning from a great a man that most of us have forgotten.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:11 pmformer U.S. CentCom commander Gen. Joseph Hoar write:
May 17th, 2007 at 12:11 pmTense alert!
wrote…
whoa, people.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:11 pmThe US government doesn’t torture. We interrogate enhancedly.
HUGE difference. Just look at all the different letters. And there are a lot more of them, too. Not the same at all.
On a more cerious note:
May 17th, 2007 at 12:12 pmI surely hope that those advocating torture would be fine with their kids and spouses being rounded up and subjected to modicum of extreme interrogation techniques.
Crump, don’t give McCain too much credit. I didn’t hear a peep out of him after Bush’s signing statement neutered his bill.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:13 pmWould someone nominate this fine gentleman for Vice President?
May 17th, 2007 at 12:13 pmIs this describing Bush II or what? you be the judge.
[edit] Used in Hitler’s psychological profile
The phrase was also used in a report prepared during the war by the United States Office of Strategic Services in describing Hitler’s psychological profile:[2]
His primary rules were: never allow the public to cool off; never admit a fault or wrong; never concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives; never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it.[3]
May 17th, 2007 at 12:14 pmYou have to keep in mind the context. The premise of the question was, if several nuclear bombs had already gone off in the US and we knew there were more, would they use torture to determine where the other bombs were. THat’s a pretty extreme situation.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:15 pmI surely hope that those advocating torture would be fine with their kids and spouses being rounded up and subjected to modicum of extreme interrogation techniques.
Comment by RUCerious
No, no. Just the kids & wives of the bad guys.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:15 pmIf torture is so great why don’t we use it on Alberto and Karl? I suspect them of being some of the real enemies of the American people.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:16 pmWe interrogate enhancedly.
HUGE difference.
Comment by Wilco
When my fiancee gets tonight to my place, after not answering my phone calls I will have ready duct tape, ropes, a plastic bag, a chair and 100 liter tank to interrogate her enhancedly.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:17 pmWell said, Gen. Charles Krulak and Gen. Joseph Hoar.
**standing ovation**
May 17th, 2007 at 12:18 pmThey’re spot on. It’s all about fear. It’s why we’re there, and it’s why we can’t leave.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:18 pm“But it is the duty of the commander in chief to lead the country away from the grip of fear, not into its grasp. … If we forfeit our values by signaling that they are negotiable in situations of grave or imminent danger, we drive those undecideds into the arms of the enemy. This way lies defeat, and we are well down the road to it.” Excellent quote.
Move on and heal from 9/11 already!! Horrible, devastating, yes but we have lost to the terrorists if we live in fear and change our entire lives and give up the very liberties they have been said to have attacked and despise…
A more appropriate approach is to continue on with our lives as we once did not giving in to the terror of 6 years ago. Recognize it, learn from it, and heal… We are not a nation of victims as this administration has wanted us to become… We have time and time again shown we are a nation of survivors… It is time we acted like it!!
May 17th, 2007 at 12:19 pmThat Repuke audience cheering torture was just showing their true stripes.
Repukes are fascists.
They believe in torture and treason and dismantling the rule of law.
I hope enough Americans have the guts to stand up to these fascists on Election Day.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:19 pmYou have to keep in mind the context. The premise of the question was, if several nuclear bombs had already gone off in the US and we knew there were more, would they use torture to determine where the other bombs were. THat’s a pretty extreme situation.
Comment by Koe
Torture would most likely provide only misleading information, since the torture victim would say anything to make it stop.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:20 pmWhatever happened to “”the only thing we have to fear is fear itself”"
Bunch of limpwristed pussies
May 17th, 2007 at 12:20 pmThis is SUCH a strawman TP has set up. Giuliani very specifically said in his answer the other night that torture should not be employed. Read the transcript, folks.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:20 pmHis primary rules were: never allow the public to cool off; never admit a fault or wrong; never concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives; never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it.[3]
Comment by lemonv — May 17, 2007 @ 12:14 pm
Perhaps that’s why Vladimir Putin just compared his policies to Hitler’s.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:20 pmWhen my fiancee gets tonight to my place, after not answering my phone calls I will have ready duct tape, ropes, a plastic bag, a chair and 100 liter tank to interrogate her enhancedly.
Comment by Juan C
That’s what I’d do.
/silliness
I think Wilco was being sarcastic. :)
May 17th, 2007 at 12:22 pmWell said Rep = Torture in #31. Let’s move forward.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:23 pmRead the transcript, folks.
Comment by Exley
Link, please.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:23 pmZooey, If you click on the ” received audience applause for endorsing torture” line above in the article, you’ll get the link to the transcript. Here is what Giuliani said:
GIULIANI: In the hypothetical that you gave me, which assumes that we know there is going to be another attack and these people know about it, I would tell the people who had to do the interrogation to use every method they can think of. Shouldn’t be torture, but every method they can think of.
May 17th, 2007 at 12:34 pmI think Wilco was being sarcastic. :)
Comment by Zooey
I think that too. I was just flavoring the comment. :)
May 17th, 2007 at 12:34 pmGens Krulak and Hoar for the Republican nomination! Restore some dignity to that sad shell of a political party…
May 17th, 2007 at 12:39 pmRight on. FDR said that “we have nothing to fear but fear itself.” Bush has used the fear engendered by 911 to overthrow the Constitutional form of government of the United States. In my book, that’s treason. What say you?
May 17th, 2007 at 12:47 pmIt’s too bad those generals are retired already, ‘cuz I’m sure Georgie wants to fire ‘em real badly. “What? You mean I can’t fire them ‘cuz they’re retired? Can I send ‘em to Guantanamo, ‘Berto?”
Just love to see some of these guys (generals) up there in a debate with these tough-talking coward GOP pansies who’d wet themselves if someone gave them a noogie.
May 17th, 2007 at 1:00 pmExley.
The new political correctness is Republican Political Correct Speech. So the term “torture” has now become “enhanced interrogation techniques” so that bloodthirsty nitwits can claim that they don’t support torture, they support “enhanced interrogation techniques”. What the good generals said is that the actions termed “enhanced interrogation techniques” were considered torture when committed by Stalin, Pol Pot and Hitler, but now that the Republican Political Correct Speech code is appled to such actions they are not considered “torture”.
Guess what. If Al Qaeda is currently using any of these tactics on OUR troops at this moment, we’d consider it torture.
Remember when Republicans used to get outraged over “situational ethics”?
-GSD
May 17th, 2007 at 1:02 pmExley,
The problem is in the hypothetical. It’s just not a possible hypothetical. It exists in fiction only.
“which assumes that we know there is going to be another attack and these people know about it,”
How in the world would we know, that they know? If we knew that they knew, (I’m already sounding like Rumsfeld, sorry) we would probably have all the information we needed.
The best method for getting information in these situations is to induce Stockholm Syndrome. You must make your captives sympathize with you and they will open up.
May 17th, 2007 at 1:04 pmColbert for President!!!
May 17th, 2007 at 1:24 pmComment by Exley — May 17, 2007 @ 12:34 pm
And then this exchange — did you “forget” this part?
HUME: Water boarding?
GIULIANI: I would say every method they could think of, and I would support them in doing that because I have seen — [applause] — I have seen what can happen when you make a mistake about this and I don’t want to see another 3,000 people dead in New York or any place else.
May 17th, 2007 at 1:38 pmExley,
Guliani is playing the middle as best he can. Now, I WILL agree, he did not commit the egregious act of condoning torture that Romney did, and yet the single implausible thing is that he (Guliani) DID NOT outright condemn torture. For ANY individual that applauded this man for his subversion of our laws and morals, should be tortured!!! It is easy to speak of war, and not be in one! I have seen death, and been a part of it. I don’t know of any individual who would think that it is an enjoyable event?
The mere existence of atrocities that are being committed, in Guantanamo, is a stain on our Democracy, and all we do is create more enemies We learn nothing credible, because of coerced confessions and the fact that we have no methods of checks that can be attributed to any concrete event that would make this acceptable by TRUE Americans. No matter how you slice it, the REPUBLICAN party has become a NAZI party.
The hate-filled, bigoted, anti-democratic principles spoken by these men make me ashamed of where America has fallen. Someone asked, “Why do these Generals hate America?†THAT statement could not be more asinine, because THEY (like me) would have happily died for this country, because we believe in our DEMOCRACY and the principles for which it was founded.
We believe in the oath of the Constitution and took GREAT PRIDE in donning the uniform that says we will defend her honor against anyone who seeks to tarnish her image. We have cried, bled, sweat, and sacrificed to ensure that this is a fact of principle vs. rhetoric. The flag was not just a symbol but a rallying cry for many battles and wars. But in each, America defended herself and always ensured that our enemies felt our wrath, both swiftly and decisively! This is not a war, but a horrible mistake that is compounded daily by DUMBYA!
However, this atmosphere of polarization from those individuals who THINK they know versus those who have a clue would tell you that, MANY soldiers would vote for a REPUBLICAN 9 out of 10 times. But, just as in the days of NIXON, this party has subverted our thinking and our liberties in the name of autocracy. And for that reason, these MEN OF HONOR are speaking out. This now has killed the morale of the soldiers and they (politicians) will be content with listening to the few, and discarding the majority!
May 17th, 2007 at 2:10 pmIraqVet – I think the “Why do highly decorated Generals hate America?” statement by KRank was tongue-in-cheek. I think s/he was mocking the neocon knee-jerk response when rational, thoughtful, experienced people say anything against the Nazi, uh, I mean Bush, administration.
May 17th, 2007 at 3:23 pmThanks SavageDem…
My concern is about those who served being disgraced, and NOT those who showed COWARDICE in taking deferrments and hiding behind daddy’s money!!!
I apologize for that oversight, but will always challenge those who try to disgrace those who made the sacrifice (i. e. THE REPUBLICAN CONGRESS)…
May 17th, 2007 at 3:50 pm#45 GSD:
May 17th, 2007 at 4:30 pmRemember when Republicans used to get outraged over “situational ethics�
I do remember that, vividly, and it’s the biggest part of what makes me want to slap R’s now….that was one of their tired old saws back in the reign of WI, and help link their underhanded and tragically ineffective foreign policies to their yokelbilly biblethumper voting base – WI’s downfall: not yokely enough, so WII addressed that, and crooked dealings overseas were allowed to resume, all thanks to a downright byzantine application of situational ethics and moral relativism, which suggests a new nickname for Exley, who has worked so hard to accumulate so many of them – “the Byzantine Bullshitter”
May 17th, 2007 at 5:01 pmMemo to Mitt Romney:
I hate to break it to your Gitmo-loving a**, but nobody at election time is going to vote for the Donny Osmond Neocon vote. Got it?!!
May 17th, 2007 at 10:36 pmDoes anyone else feel like Bush and Co. are living a Star Wars episode?. Who is Luke and the Jedi?
May 18th, 2007 at 9:35 amWhat if we send our future treason defendants (sitting cabinet members) to an outsourced questioning camp run in Jakarta or Cuba. just to see how the whole plan of how they were going to do away with the constitution came about.
May 18th, 2007 at 12:26 pm