“I lost my son to a war I oppose.”
“I lost my son to a war I oppose.”
Andrew Bacevich, a professor of international relations at Boston University, writes about the recent loss of his son in Iraq:
What exactly is a father’s duty when his son is sent into harm’s way? Among the many ways to answer that question, mine was this one: As my son was doing his utmost to be a good soldier, I strove to be a good citizen. [...]
I hoped that [my anti-war] efforts might produce a political climate conducive to change. I genuinely believed that if the people spoke, our leaders in Washington would listen and respond. This, I can now see, was an illusion. [...]
I know that my son did his best to serve our country. Through my own opposition to a profoundly misguided war, I thought I was doing the same. In fact, while he was giving his all, I was doing nothing. In this way, I failed him.
Read his full op-ed.
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I feel for his loss of his son and shame on the Bush Regime.
May 27th, 2007 at 11:29 amHeartbreaking, absolutely devastating. My heartfelt condolences to the Bacevich family.
Please read the whole op-ed piece.
May 27th, 2007 at 11:38 amFor those of you who won’t read this piece it is a hit piece on Democrats and the system, and a well-deserved one.
The majority has spoken, the Democrats could have ended it through funding, and it’s back to square one. Period. The Democrats caved because they think it will help them retain power. Even in the face of overwhelming opposition to the war.
May 27th, 2007 at 11:46 amOf interest in the linked article: Sen. Kerry and Sen. Kennedy evaded Professor Bacevich’s entreaty to end the US fiasco occupation of Iraq.
America cannot survive if even so-called liberal Senators do not have the guts to stand-up to Bush to end his vile debacle in Iraq. Senate is completely controlled by the “Military Industrial Complex” CEOs now.
May 27th, 2007 at 11:47 amJustin Raimondo fires on all cylinders on the same case:
http://antiwar.com/justin/?articleid=11007
May 27th, 2007 at 11:47 amBacevich is ex-military and widely known for his latest book.
The article should include this…
The New American Militarism: How Americans Are Seduced by War
May 27th, 2007 at 11:48 amIn fact, I find it peculiar that the WaPo didn’t mention this…
May 27th, 2007 at 11:49 amPlease read the whole op-ed piece.
Comment by Zooey — May 27, 2007 @ 11:38 am
Not only that, I am printing it and carrying it with me. I had this conversation with my husband the other day. I feel that I have not done enough to try to assist our troops in returning to this country alive. I have attended a couple of protests and b*tch on blogs such as this. I have even talked a few of my seniors out of joining the army and marines.
No more. I know there will be rallys in DC this summer. I plan on being there. I am joining moveon.org to assist them in the fight against this unjust and illegal war. I am going to do anything and everything one individual can do. I have lost so much in the past year, but thankfully I have not lost my child nor any of my former students. I intend to keep it that way!
May 27th, 2007 at 11:55 am“Money buys access and influence. Money greases the process that will yield a new president in 2008. When it comes to Iraq, money ensures that the concerns of big business, big oil, bellicose evangelicals and Middle East allies gain a hearing. By comparison, the lives of US soldiers figure as an afterthought.” (Professor Bacevich in post article.)
May 27th, 2007 at 12:00 pmFor those of you who won’t read this piece it is a hit piece on Democrats and the system, and a well-deserved one.
Comment by LandSurveyor
You forgot the father and his agonizing grief — the main point, of course. Read Jules’ comment at #8.
May 27th, 2007 at 12:01 pmIf my child went into the military I would say are you sure , do you want a job where you are to kill people and destroy their property come on son , get a real job I dont want to see you in harms way for anybody or anything
but then I guess not all parents think like this
May 27th, 2007 at 12:03 pmIf my child went into the military I would say are you sure , do you want a job where you are to kill people and destroy their property come on son , get a real job I dont want to see you in harms way for anybody or anything
but then I guess not all parents think like this
Comment by Tobey Tall — May 27, 2007 @ 12:03 pm
The military is a real job……How dare you make a blanket statement as such???
May 27th, 2007 at 12:09 pmTobey – I agree with lizzie. I spent 6 years in the Air Force and it was a very real job. I am proud of my service to and for my country. What galls me is Bush actually believes he served this country. He has ruined it!
May 27th, 2007 at 12:16 pm#12
May 27th, 2007 at 12:18 pmA better term may have been “a more traditional job”. I doubt seriously Tobey was disrespecting the military in any way.
This is the old discussion. Im anti-military, becuz I believe that in the world there should be more hospitals, more schools, more teachers, less weapons, and less propaganda favoring war. But then again I dont find appealing any war-crap nonsense like US citizens are used to.
Those soldiers dying in Iraq should be there in their countries, having a good education, living with their families and not dying for rich people´s reasons.
May 27th, 2007 at 12:26 pm“To whom do Kennedy, Kerry and Lynch listen? We know the answer: to the same people who have the ear of George W. Bush and Karl Rove — namely, wealthy individuals and institutions.” (Professor Bacevich in the Post article.)
May 27th, 2007 at 12:28 pmget a real job I dont want to see you in harms way for anybody or anything
Wow a little less hate crime soldier there. That’s fine though, the country needs people who let daddy tell them what to do and when to do it. Not every one is cut out for the life of a soldier.
Of course I suppose I wasn’t as easily manipulated by my parents. While neither of them served, they let me make my own choices and stood by me. Shame your kid hasn’t demonstrated enough responsibility for their father to trust them and believe in them, ah well though, not for everybody.
do you want a job where you are to kill people and destroy their property
My whole time in I never destroyed anyones property. I did run a couple medivac missions to Bedouins who had illnesses and accidents. I responded to a woman being stoned that we were unable to stop though (Political thing and ugly Americans getting involved in their culture and stuff). We did resupply local areas that were hit by mudslides and unpassable by vehicle.
Of course I could have gotten a “real job”, but then again I’m not one of those people at work that always say “I wanted to go in, or I took the test, but….”
May 27th, 2007 at 12:29 pmI agree with Mr. Bacevich. Democrats are just as beholden to special interests as Republicans. I think the article above this one where congressional leaders are expected to resign if they cannot have those “special perks”…is related. I say good riddance to bad rubbish. We don’t elect politicians to get personal wealth…we elect them to govern for us. Presently, this is not happening and it’s a tragedy and destroying our country.
May 27th, 2007 at 12:30 pmWhat does “serve your country” mean in today’s world as far as the United States goes? The military and it’sn role in empire. This is “serving your country”? How? How does this occupation and this slaughterhouse in Iraq, this complete and utter chaos, with the loss of hundreds of thousands of lives and–well you know the rest–missing limbs at the age of twenty–missing brains and missing eyes and fingers.
How is this worth the greatest scam ever perpetrated upon the American people and it’s young, by drumming it into their head that they are “serving their country”?
Doesn’t serve me and doesn’t serve this country as I know this country.
May 27th, 2007 at 12:34 pmBut I still support the democrats :-) I just think I will be looking at new blood this next time around. I think perhaps, two terms, and then they gotta go would be wise rule.
May 27th, 2007 at 12:35 pmWhat does “serve your country†mean in today’s world as far as the United States goes?
If you join today, you will be serving when the other political party takes over in 2 years. A soldier serves for the country, not for either party. It’s vets like me who can choose a side.
You can’t say soldiers are killers who destroy property until a Democrat gets in office, then they are protectors of freedom. If your president sends you to Haiti, Egypt, Panama, Iraq you go, just like that. You can’t pick and choose which ones are worth going to. Because regardless of how much we can sit back here and armchair quarterback, we don’t have all the data.
May 27th, 2007 at 12:40 pm#20 and 21…
As over 70% now knows…we have failed leadership. The current “occupants of the WH thought this would be easy and they were wrong. Now they just continue to make wrong decisions over and over. Paying with our young peoples lives. It makes me sick. I agree with Tundra…you don’t get to pick and choose after you raise your hand. Fortunately for me, in the 21 years I served there was at least “competent” leadership. Chimpy and shooter aren’t even qualified to be a dog catcher (sorry to dis all the dog catchers out there).
May 27th, 2007 at 12:50 pmThe Democrats caved because they think it will help them retain power. Even in the face of overwhelming opposition to the war.
Comment by LandSurveyor — May 27, 2007 @ 11:46 am
Possible, but I would like to tweek this a bit, because the 180 degree turnaround was a bit odd. So what happened?
The Dems and Repubs entered a deal with a secret timeline for withdrawal (I must admit, they accepted this too easily because of your argument). This supposedly would appease the people that thought we shouls not give our enemy a “date for failure” that they wouls rally behind.
Something everyone should know-the timeline argument is a fraud. No rational intelligence officer would ever say that a timeline diminishes the security of America and the talking point is not worth the paper it is written on. But, junior congressmen took the bait and a deal was worked out using prominent corrupt congressmen to make it happen (including Clinton-still checking on Obama). Also how do you hide something from an enemy that has never been defined?
So there is now a secret timeline for withdrawal, great. Here are the contingencies that make the agreement null and void:
State of emergency (declarable only by the president- which then gives him all powers according to the continuity of government documents)
False flag in or to be blamed on Iran
Increased Al Qaeda/Israeli conflict in Lebenon-even though it is precisely the unchecked iraq war funding that caused Al-Qaeda to be in tripoli.
So now that the dems agreed to a deal with the most deceptive and lying administration in this country’s history, what makes anyone think they will not breach the non-public deal?
If you want to know how many years we are going to go through this BS (tragic for the families and those serving), just do what cheney is doing, following the tried and true timeline:
http://www.landscaper.net/timelin.htm
May 27th, 2007 at 12:54 pmTundra
Doesn’t anyone who signs up have any idea or reasononing. Are you going to excuse every young person who signs up and claims they will be ‘Serving the country” as being stupid and uninformed? Or, perhaps, you will excuse them for being full of hormones and really impulsive or wht?
Please tell me why anyone who signs up over the past five years is “serving the country” and don’t try to avoid the question by obfuscationg—they serve the president, as you seem to imply, is utter and complete bullshit.
It is time to take a realistic and hard look as just what joining the Amican military means in today’s world. Fine, you grow up your children to join to “servie their country” by invading other countries, who are small and you grow them up to believe that they are “serving the country” or “defending our freedoms” when there is no country in the world that has threatened to attack the US.
Good luck, if you have any that will be sent into these wars which will most likely continue. Already we are in a so called “war” which is a fake, not knowing who the enemy is and in reality we have no enemy because we are in the middle of a civil war in Iraq and the commander in chief willingly allowed that to happen.
Do you believe that anyone who signs up is really “serving their country? And if so what excuse do you offer for this complicity?
May 27th, 2007 at 12:59 pmWhat does “serve your country†mean in today’s world as far as the United States goes?
means go out and force American foreign policy down peoples throats until we create so much havoc in the world that the world wants to buy our weapons and kill more people only then with an unstable world are we safe from being found out what our aim was
May 27th, 2007 at 12:59 pmJay Randal at #4
Well said. I made the same observation at Digby’s blog concerning the same topic. One wonders if those representatives would have been so reluctant to try and bring this illegal occupation to an end if their sons and daughters were to return to this country in a flag draped coffin or blinded or severly burned or brain damaged or spending the rest of their lives in a wheelchair or trying to grapple with PTSD later in their lives. This simply reflects the fact that there is little, if any, difference between the two war making parties that currently rule this country.
May 27th, 2007 at 1:00 pmSo there is now a secret timeline for withdrawal, great.
If that was the case, a “secret” deal goes fully against “Transparent” and “Regulated”. That would simply reduce the members of congress who took part in the “Secret” deal to the level of Chimpy.
But I don’t trust any of them anyway.
May 27th, 2007 at 1:03 pmPatrick,
Do happen to live in Colorado?
May 27th, 2007 at 1:13 pmPlease tell me why anyone who signs up over the past five years is “serving the country†and don’t try to avoid the question by obfuscationg—they serve the president, as you seem to imply, is utter and complete bullshit.
Your first statements deserve no response, because they don’t need me to excuse them for anything. They are doing what they feel is right, soooo why do I have to defend them especially by calling them things like misinformed?
Now on to the statement above.
They are serving the country because
1) The congress of the United States, voted to authorize the president to basically do what he wants.
2) This same congress (Representatives of the people here) still haven’t done a damn thing to stop him.
3) Because we don’t govern based on CNN polls or webblogs, a soldier is left to trust in his civilian representatives (Which still haven’t done anything to tell him/her otherwise)
So they are serving the country by doing exactly what was/is asked of them.
May 27th, 2007 at 1:14 pm#23… Great post by Dig Deep. The link provided and the 1970 deliberations in congress are uncanny to present day.
If the dems made a pact with these known liars in the WH… then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell them.
May 27th, 2007 at 1:16 pm#28 Not in CO.
May 27th, 2007 at 1:18 pmCan one possibly imagine the state of affairs if complete public funding of all elections were mandated? Those in elected office would no longer need to spend considerable amounts of time calling potential donors, and selling their souls to obtain the funding necessary to mount a serious campaign in this advertising-driven age. If such a change were to occur, the unemployed part-time fast food worker’s opinion would become just as important as that of the richest corporate mogul, since each would only be able to vote once. Although idealism seems to be hopelessly out of date during these cynical times, perhaps we would do well to reconsider the words of the Robert F. Kennedy — “Some people see things as they are and say why. I dream things that never were and say why not?”
May 27th, 2007 at 1:23 pmTundra
Well put.
May 27th, 2007 at 1:23 pmIt’s the Dlc-ers of the Dem party & most of all the Repukes who have failed his sons and countless other families.
May 27th, 2007 at 1:32 pmYeah,the Bush twins en paying the price of war it’s the ordinary folks like you and I.
“shame on the Bush Regime.
Comment by Jay Randal — May 27, 2007″
Shame? For what? Protecting your sorry liberal *ss!
May 27th, 2007 at 1:32 pmThis is a heartbreaking story that I am sure is repeated in many households across the nation.
A friend’s son enlisted without telling his parents — he just turned 18 and he was attracted by campus recruiters. He was promised a $5000 signing bonus among other things. He received his date to report – then the military postponed his date due to a transportation glitch on their part – when he finally arrived two weeks later, he was told — “too bad, no signing bonus; you were supposed to be here two weeks ago.”
It serves no purpose to say I told you so; this was a hard lesson for this kid to learn. He’s surely going to learn a few more before he is back to civilian life.
May 27th, 2007 at 1:33 pm“The Democrats caved because they think it will help them retain power. Even in the face of overwhelming opposition to the war.
Comment by LandSurveyor — May 27, 2007″
The democrats caved because they don’t have a clue!
May 27th, 2007 at 1:34 pm“I have lost so much in the past year
Comment by Jules — May 27, 2007″
Does that include your guts?
May 27th, 2007 at 1:36 pm“He’s surely going to learn a few more before he is back to civilian life.
Comment by Marie — May 27, 2007″
Like being a man?
May 27th, 2007 at 1:38 pmI send Blessing’s out to this father and all people of the world that have lost a loved one in this madness….
I beg forgivness from all who have lost their loved one’s for the slow reaction of a once great nation and her people to respond to your loses and right the evils of our now corrupt, crippled nation…I have no excuse for the rest of our countries citizen’s, only my own lack of good health to do more than I am presently able..I have and will continue to do all I can to stop this madness and continue daily to help the service person’s returning to heal in body, mind and spirit…A huge task that is breaking my heart daily for indeed they are truly broken.
Think of the lies, killing and distruction that has been brought all over the world with the bigger lie “bringing democracy” to the infamious them, all the while stealing any semblance of democracy and justice to all of our own, and them…
BnF had a great poem about the sparrow yesterday on another thread.
This bush cabal has taken our country to an all time low in history, they and all the enabeler’s in office are no better than the worst dictator’s of the past, in my opinion….I will not vote for any that helped further the genecide by funding and will seek out more enlightend leader’s to serve our country, providing we survive to vote in 2008….Blessings to you all and good by.
May 27th, 2007 at 1:41 pmMichael opines that our fearless leader [who intentionally avoided serving in Vietnam] is protecting us. On the contrary, he is exacerbating national security by inflaming the ire of the terrorists by keeping the troops in Iraq thereby making the “war on terrorism” neverending. As a couple of bumper stickers proclaim, War creates more terrorists while military solutions are problems.
May 27th, 2007 at 1:45 pmmichael
You do more to degenerate your country, your soldiers and your species, then anybody else ever could.
I would call a w*nker but I doubt you have the equipment.
May 27th, 2007 at 1:45 pmComment by Bruce Gorton — May 27, 2007 @ 1:23 pm
Thanks Bruce, I try to not ALWAYS Troll.
michael
May 27th, 2007 at 1:52 pmPersonally I would like to get more information from Marie. If that is truly the way it happened it needs to get corrected as in now. If he signed with a bonus and do to no fault if his own is no longer eligibile, someone needs to fix it. Blowing it off like that’s the way it works is BS.
#30 -If the dems made a pact with these known liars in the WH… then I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell them.
Comment by Patrick — May 27, 2007 @ 1:16 pm
Nice one! I bet if their puppet masters told them to, they would pay higher than the asking price!
I am trying to find out more concerning the presidential candidates and the following:
1. Exposure to corruption
2. Their ability to relate to lower/middle/sub-elite Americans
3. Whether what they say is a variation of a talking point or actual intelligent discourse
4. Whether they have a proven knowkedge of comlex issues like immigration, national security, domestic economic policy, healthcare, and a welfare system
5. Their speeches v. their voting record
6. Their alliances to NGO’s rather than the American people
6. Their consistency in their voting record
7. Below is my preliminary analysis concerning the top candidates including those not officially in the race. Since this is preliminary I will be very unscientific and just give you my opinion on whether I trust them or not using 0 for “I would not let them in my house” and 10 for “I would trust them with sending my children to war” (judge for yourself and respond if you like):
Hillary Clinton 0
Rudy Guiliani 0
Barack Obama 4
Al Gore 5
John McCain 0
John Edwards 3
Mitt Romney 0
Fred Thompson 0
Newt Gingrich 0
Ron Paul 10
Note: The only reason I mention Ron Paul that seems to be in the second tier at the moment is because he is the only one above a 0 in that second tier.
I swore I would never vote for a Republican in my life. Unless Gore, Obama, or Edwards pick up the pace, I may have to break that oath.
May 27th, 2007 at 1:55 pm“if, as seems probable, the effort encounters greater resistance than its architects imagine, our way of life may find itself tested in ways that will make the Vietnam War look like a mere blip in American history.” Andrew J. Bacevich, Los Angeles Times, March 2003 regarding the US Invasion of Iraq.
The man was correct, spoke his mind and his son was lost in this harebrained neocon war anyway.
My condolences to their family.
May 27th, 2007 at 1:57 pmUm, is it me, or does the fact that michael’s homepage points to the most irrational entity on TV in the past 20 years give you a clue as to how futile arguing would be?
May 27th, 2007 at 2:02 pmDavid Sirota (davidsirota dot com) has two searing entries on his blog proving the Democrats tried to DECEIVE us into believing they OPPOSED the Iraq Funding. They must be getting PR advice from Karl Rove.
Here one Democrat is BRAGGING about the HOAX they pulled off on YOU and I.
“But while protesters outside the Capitol condemned what they saw as a capitulation, Democrats inside were remarkably understanding of their speaker’s contortions. Party leaders jury-rigged the votes yesterday to give all Democrats something to brag about…Democrats saw brilliance in the legerdemain. And with such contortions came more appreciation for the efforts Pelosi was making to fund the war in a fashion most palatable to angry Democrats. ‘It was the responsible thing to do, and she’s a responsible speaker,’ said Rep. Anna G. Eshoo (D-Calif.).â€
(if you want to contact Anna Eshoo and let her have it her number is 1-202-225-8890. Apparently she thinks that we independent/liberals are stupid braindead followers like they have on the right. That we can be conned and deceived with an obvious lie like so many Fox/Rush lemmings.)
Sirota continues…And here’s the worst part of it all – Democrats are now bragging about it. Not only have they sent out a Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee fundraising email attempting to confuse voters by claiming with a straight face that they really stood up to President Bush. But most insulting of all, they are actually running to reporters to pat themselves on the back for engineering a procedural pirouette designed to confuse the public.
This is what we’re dealing with folks. A party that runs to the press to brag about the brilliance of using their majority not to end the war, but to create a situation that makes it seem as if they oppose the war, while actually helping Republicans continue it.
**If this doesn’t get your blood boiling I don’t know what will.
May 27th, 2007 at 2:04 pmCoorection to my post #46
Anna Eshoo’s # is 1-202-225-8104 Wash DC
1-650-323-2984 Palo Alto, CA
May 27th, 2007 at 2:13 pmCorrection to my post #47…Correction is spelled Correction. (When I get pissed I type poorly)
May 27th, 2007 at 2:16 pmComment by michael — I was going through the thread and thought great posts, and no troll spew then michael. Michael. Since you are such a stud, and your love for this president extends beyond the bounds of healthy. I would say that you go down tomorrow and sign up to fight this war that you love so much. Why are you not fighting it now? Are you afraid of that don’t ask don’t tell policy?
May 27th, 2007 at 2:19 pm#45 Um, is it me, or does the fact that michael’s homepage points to the most irrational entity on TV in the past 20 years give you a clue as to how futile arguing would be?
WTF? His tiresome one-liners and rhetorical questioning having an intellectual level of a two-year old baboon with bipolar disorder should already have given you a clue.
May 27th, 2007 at 2:20 pmMarie,
I would suggest something like the following. It’s quick to the point, has enough information for them to easily locate the contract. If you mail it all the better.
Dear Congressman/Congresswoman XXXXX
I am writing you regarding (Rank Lastname). It is my understanding that (Rank Lastname) entered into the (Army/Marines/Airforce/Navy/Coast Guard) on (Insert Date). (Rank Lastname) was offered a $5000 Enlistment bonus from the (MEPS Station location). On (Rank Lastname) ship date the (Army/navy/Air Force/Marines/coast guard) was unable to provide travel to (his/her) processing station. Two weeks later (he/She) was able to begin training. Upon arriving for processing (Rank Lastname) was informed that they were no longer eligibile for their enlistment bonus due to no fault of their own.
I am sure if this information is indeed correct that you will be as offended as I am. While I am convinced this is simply a misunderstanding, We cannot have our servicemembers worried about financial concerns during these times. I appreciate anything you can do to assist me in this matter.
Sincerly,
May 27th, 2007 at 2:21 pmMarie (Hippy Protester)
“As a couple of bumper stickers proclaim, War creates more terrorists while military solutions are problems.
Comment by Erroll — May 27, 2007″
Did this war create the muslim terrorists that took over our embassy in Iran in 1979?
Did this war create the muslim terrorists that bombed our embassy in Beirut in 1982?
Did this war create the muslim terrorists blew up the Marine barracks in Beirut in 1983?
Did this war create the muslim terrorists who took over the Achille Lauro in 1985?
Did this war create the muslim terrorists who bombed the disco in Berlin in 1986?
Did this war create the muslim terrorists who blew up Pan Am Flight 103 in 1988?
Did this war create the muslim terrorists who bombed the World Trade Center in 1993?
Did this war create the muslim terrorists who bombed the Air Force housing complex in Saudi Arabia in 1996?
Did this war create the muslim terrorists who blew up our African embassies in 1998?
Did this war create the muslim terrorists who bombed the USS Cole in 2000?
Did this war create the muslim terrorists who brought down the Twin Towers in 2001?
The answer to all these questions is NO! They have been killing us for decades! When are you liberals going to develop enough spine to understand it will NEVER end until all the terrorists are DEAD!
May 27th, 2007 at 2:22 pm“does the fact that michael’s homepage points to the most irrational entity on TV in the past 20 years give you a clue as to how futile arguing would be?
Comment by Dig Deep — May 27, 2007″
The fact is you can’t argue!
May 27th, 2007 at 2:24 pm“I would say that you go down tomorrow and sign up to fight this war that you love so much. Why are you not fighting it now? Are you afraid of that don’t ask don’t tell policy?
Comment by JTitor — May 27, 2007″
I get this from you spineless liberals all the time! I served in the U.S. Navy for 5 years. What have you given for your country?
May 27th, 2007 at 2:26 pmPlease tell me why anyone who signs up over the past five years is “serving the countryâ€
— no name
My son joined the guard to serve his country, and ended up going to Iraq.
He as well as I oppose the war, but his original reasons for joining remain the same. I respect his choice.
My other 2 sons did not join, that was their choice as well
Are you disparging that?
May 27th, 2007 at 2:27 pm“His tiresome one-liners and rhetorical questioning having an intellectual level of a two-year old baboon with bipolar disorder should already have given you a clue.
Comment by El Tonno — May 27, 2007″
This is the typical diatribe I usually get from clueless liberals!
May 27th, 2007 at 2:29 pmMarie,
It’s even better if you have an American Legion or VFW in their district send it out.
May 27th, 2007 at 2:30 pm“Are you disparging that?
Comment by Wayne — May 27, 2007″
Who are you directing that question to?
May 27th, 2007 at 2:31 pmWho are you directing that question to?
Comment by michael
Did you actually read the post or just responding to it without reading?
May 27th, 2007 at 2:33 pm“Did you actually read the post or just responding to it without reading?
Comment by Wayne — May 27, 2007″
I read the post!
May 27th, 2007 at 2:43 pmre#19 no name
Whenever I hear a person being interviewed make that statement “They are serving our country”…
I keep waiting for the interviewer, to ask “How are they serving our country, what do you mean by that?”…
But alas that question never comes!
May 27th, 2007 at 2:44 pmgreat dialogue — erh, multi-logue, here. . .
if anyone would like to see two
recent photos of the bacevichs — the father,
a handsomely-graying man — and son,
solid, and square-jawed, standing with his
unit, in iraq — i have sourced a pair of
photos, and set them with some of prof.
bacevich’s opinion letter, just this morning.
often, putting a “face” with this tragedy
is deeply meaningful — and it is, here.
so i did just that.
p e a c e
May 27th, 2007 at 2:45 pm“My son joined the guard to serve his country, and ended up going to Iraq.
He as well as I oppose the war”
Why did he join the military?
May 27th, 2007 at 2:46 pmWhy did he join the military?
Comment by michael
It is
FunnyHilarious that you did not even read the quote you pasted.Reading comprehension problem or are you just stoned?
May 27th, 2007 at 2:52 pmsheesh.
Why did he join the military?
Comment by michael — May 27, 2007 @ 2:46 pm
To serve his country, I thought we were all over this once? Ummmm the military is not the same as the Iraq war. I realize how tough that is for some people to realize.
It’s like saying I hate Wal-Mart executives so therefore, I am against the center for missing and exploited children too. (because Wal-Mart postes pictures of the kids in each store)
May 27th, 2007 at 2:52 pmSincerly,
Marie (Hippy Protester)
Comment by Tundra
Tundra,
Was it really necessary to take that shot at Marie?
May 27th, 2007 at 2:56 pmre#55 Wayne
Did you ask yourself:
Is not this Iraq war is a violation of the UN Charter and no different a war crime than when Germany invading Poland?
Do you acknowledge that US soldiers and others in the coalition
who are participating in the Iraq war are war criminals?
Is your son any different from a German soldier that was just following orders also?
If your son is no different, why should he not face charges after the war like the German soldiers did?
Please do not answer, just think about it!
May 27th, 2007 at 2:57 pmre#65 Tundra
What about the 10,000 people in the military who REFUSED to participate in crimes againt humanity by going to Iraq?
Are not they the only members of the miltary who are “really” serving our country?
May 27th, 2007 at 3:00 pmWas it really necessary to take that shot at Marie?
Comment by Zooey — May 27, 2007 @ 2:56 pm
I can’t go through a whole post without some sort of hippy remark in some direction. So my whole attempt to help is wiped clear because of a humorus signature.
Marie always seemed like the type to at least get a little chuckle out of it. If she was offended then I will honestly apologize for it.
May 27th, 2007 at 3:01 pmMichael at #52
Terrorist organizations are located in 60 other countries. Do you propose that the U.S. invade those sixty countries instead of treating terrorism as a police action? Your reasoning, such as it is, is reminiscent of Bill O’Reilly, who stated that he had no interest why the U.S. was attacked, he just wanted to kill them all. As Chalmers Johnson [who is not a liberal] had attempted to point out, apparently to no avail, the actions of the United States overseas has unintended consequences and consequently manifest itself as blowback. As long as the less than benevolent presence of the United States continues to make itself known in the Middle East, then more violence and bloodshed will prove to be a way of life, both in Iraq and Afghanistan.
May 27th, 2007 at 3:02 pm#62 – nolo
Thanks for the pictures. It really does put a face to the tragedy…
May 27th, 2007 at 3:02 pmAre not they the only members of the miltary who are “really†serving our country?
Comment by criticalthinker — May 27, 2007 @ 3:00 pm
Geee Wally, who says they should do any different? Congress? The house? Oh wait you believe they should be in the military following a CNN poll’s thought or whatever blog you happen to like’s ideas?
Right now they are doing exactly what their representatives are asking them to do. Oh wait the news media says something else, they should follow what MSNBC, the daily COS, Fox or Christian Science Monitor says the people want. Good thing that the media is completely impartial always.
No, the 10,000 number you decided to produce are the ones that are not doing what they signed up for (The will of the people as their representatives express), and are going off on their own for what ever cause they choose.
May 27th, 2007 at 3:09 pmPlease do not answer, just think about it!
Comment by criticalthinker
F*ck you and your bullsh*t. And I mean that from the bottom of my heart.
My family and ancestors has proudly served the military since the Revolutionary War.
Little news for you, Bushco is jailing contiencious objectors.
May 27th, 2007 at 3:10 pmThanks for the pictures. It really does put a face to the tragedy…
Comment by Zooey — May 27, 2007 @ 3:02 pm
absolutely — my pleasure.
i am encouraged to know
that it resonated. . .
p e a c e
May 27th, 2007 at 3:10 pmFrankly, I had never heard of Andrew Bacevich or Cindy Sheehan. But now, after they dragged their sons down to the enlistment office and forced them to join the evil military the have become heroes to the anti-American crowd. And these 2 are just lapping up the publicity, on the graves of these young men.
Meanwhile the National Safety Council is estimating 5-600 deaths on American highways over the Memorial Day weekend.
1 or 2 deaths is a tragedy, 5-600 is a statistic.
May 27th, 2007 at 3:10 pmFrankly, I had never heard of Andrew Bacevich or Cindy Sheehan. But now, after they dragged their sons down to the enlistment office and forced them to join the evil military the have become heroes to the anti-American crowd. And these 2 are just lapping up the publicity, on the graves of these young men.
Comment by beefeater
F*ck you, beefeater. I mean that most sincerely — f*ck you.
May 27th, 2007 at 3:16 pm“does the fact that michael’s homepage points to the most irrational entity on TV in the past 20 years give you a clue as to how futile arguing would be?
Comment by Dig Deep — May 27, 2007″
The fact is you can’t argue!
Comment by michael — May 27, 2007 @ 2:24 pm
Thanks for bringing up another technique by irrational people on TV like your godless godess. In this case avoiding the statement one person makes and then accusing that person of the very thing they are guilty of. They also state this hypocritical opinion as fact.
May 27th, 2007 at 3:26 pmre#73 Wayne
If you do not want to be asked questions about such things why would you put it on this forum?
Why do you resort to profanity and name calling when someone asks you a question?
The REALITY is that the Iraq war is a violation of the UN charter and a crime against humanity, and the soldiers who participate are war criminals, and calling me names for pointing it out changes nothing.
I guess coming face to face with ones own HYPOCRISY is hard to swallow, and often brings about the “kill the messenger” emotion.
I am not the one that wrote the UN charter.
I am not a senator nor congressman who approved us joing the UN.
I am not a senator nor congressman who gave Bush the authorization for this war.
I am not the Bush who ordered the soldiers to Iraq.
I am not the one who chose to follow an illegal order and participate in a crime against humanity.
I am just the messenger.
May 27th, 2007 at 3:28 pmHow about this headline?
May 27th, 2007 at 3:29 pm“I lost my son to a car accident I oppose.”
Or “I lost my daughter to cancer, and I’m against that.”
Makes as much sense.
Sophomoric Jr. High writing at best, publicity seeking at worst.
Nobody is upset (my post #47) that the Democrats vote on Iraq Funding was a pre-calculated event to minimize Democratic anger? This is FRONT-PAGE news! The Dems played us all for Dupes!
May 27th, 2007 at 3:32 pmThe REALITY is that the Iraq war is a violation of the UN charter and a crime against humanity
WE THE PEOPLES OF THE UNITED NATIONS DETERMINED
to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, which twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind, and
to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small, and
to establish conditions under which justice and respect for the obligations arising from treaties and other sources of international law can be maintained, and
to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,
AND FOR THESE ENDS
to practice tolerance and live together in peace with one another as good neighbours, and
to unite our strength to maintain international peace and security, and
to ensure, by the acceptance of principles and the institution of methods, that armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest, and
to employ international machinery for the promotion of the economic and social advancement of all peoples,
May 27th, 2007 at 3:34 pmI am just the messenger.
Comment by criticalthinker
Is it difficult for you to comprehend that your comments comparing Wayne’s son to German soldiers and war criminals might be a bit personal?
Please look up this word in the dictionary: TACT
May 27th, 2007 at 3:35 pmNobody is upset (my post #47) that the Democrats vote on Iraq Funding was a pre-calculated event to minimize Democratic anger? This is FRONT-PAGE news! The Dems played us all for Dupes!
Comment by Larry from C
Larry,
Just because no one comments on your post, doesn’t mean no one read it, or that no one agrees with it.
May 27th, 2007 at 3:37 pmThe REALITY is that the Iraq war is a violation of the UN charter and a crime against humanity, and the soldiers who participate are war criminals, and calling me names for pointing it out changes nothing.
— criticalthinker
Well in the REALITY I livein, the U.N. Security Council voted unanimously to extend the U.S.-led forces’ mandate until the end of 2007.
How can you think crtically when ignorant of the facts?
May 27th, 2007 at 3:38 pmNobody is upset..
— Larry from C
Frankly I have been upset at the Dems since Pelosi brushed Impeachment ( as well as the voters ) “off the table”.
May 27th, 2007 at 3:50 pmre#82 Zooey
How can one be TACTFUL when it comes to talking about crimes against humanity?
A person saying they are anti-war while supporting the troops is no different than a person, saying they are anti-child-pornography while supporting the adults who make it!
I am not a HYPOCRITE and I love my children, but if they commit a crime I expect them to be punished, be that robbery, rape, murder, or war crime.
My kids are not any more special than an Iraqi parent’s children, and I UNLIKE most truly believe it and are willing to say so!
My sense of right and wrong does not change depending upon which “team” I am on.
If one cannot stand being asked a tough questions, then one should not post!
May 27th, 2007 at 3:53 pmzooey — i long ago swore this oath:
i.shall.never.ever.feed.the.trolls.ever.
beefeater is plainly in that category. . .
s m i l e
p e a c e
May 27th, 2007 at 3:55 pm“I get this from you spineless liberals all the time! I served in the U.S. Navy for 5 years. What have you given for your country?”
Comment by michael — May 27, 2007
Michael – I appreciate your service.
And I am being sincere when I ask the following question – I am not trying to bust your balls
here.
If you really think this is the fight for our civilization and that (as per one of your other posts) “all of the terrorists must be killed” – why not re-enlist and do it then?
Why only give five years?
Again, I am asking you this with all due respect.
May 27th, 2007 at 3:55 pmre#84 Wayne
Thinking critically does not mean ignoring the CRIME just because the government PARDONS the criminal!
Attacking a nation that is not in the process of or who has not attacked you is wrong according to the Golden rule and has always been wrong.
The US launched an unprovoked war of agression on the Soverign nation of Iraq in 2003 and it was a violation of the UN charter and a crime against humanity.
To suggest that a later UN resolution could “reverse” that crime, is simply wrong and only happened because the US controls the UN’s purse strings.
This issue is clear and can only be made cloudy if you use HYPOCRISY as the out.
The Germans were wrong to invade Poland, The Japanese were wrong to attach Pearl Harbor, but somehow the US is not wrong to attack Iraq.
You can close your eyes and deny it all you want, the US and coalition soldiers who participated in the invasion of Iraq are war criminals.
Sorry if reality and the truth hurts, but HYPOCRISY is not a valid get out of crimes against humanity jail free card like in Monopoly!
May 27th, 2007 at 4:03 pmHow can one be TACTFUL when it comes to talking about crimes against humanity?
Comment by criticalthinker
How can one NOT be tactful when speaking directly about a fellow human being’s child?
If you want to pose such questions, and they are good and thought provoking questions — use more general terms.
May 27th, 2007 at 4:03 pm46. Comment by Larry from C — I dumped the Democratic party because of this kind of stuff. First, taking impeachment off the table, then total copitualation to this so called President. Edwards, Kucinich, and Paul are the only three candidates from both parties telling the truth. I’m now a proud Independent. There is no two party system. Both parties say one thing and do another.
May 27th, 2007 at 4:05 pmzooey — i long ago swore this oath:
i.shall.never.ever.feed.the.trolls.ever.
beefeater is plainly in that category. . .
s m i l e
p e a c e
Comment by nolo
My nerves are frayed, I need to go back to trollie rehab.
Thanks, nolo.
May 27th, 2007 at 4:05 pmContinuing my post #47 from DavidSirota dot com…
Here’s how egregious the Dems phony pre-planned vote on Iraq Funding was…And read the last line from former Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert (R-IL) !…
From the Washington Post:
“Yesterday’s vote to fund the war through September was a historical rarity: the passage of a bill opposed by the speaker of the House and a majority of the speaker’s party. Two years ago to the day, then-Speaker J. Dennis Hastert (R-Ill.) violated the “Hastert rule†— that only bills supported by a majority of the majority can come up — by bringing up legislation to allow federal funding for stem cell research. The majority of the Republican majority opposed the law. He voted against it, but he knew it would never become law over President Bush’s signature…The North American Free Trade Agreement passed in 1993, over the objections of most Democrats, who were then in the majority. But NAFTA did have the support of then-Speaker Thomas S. Foley (D-Wash.), as well as the Democratic president, Bill Clinton. In contrast, the Iraq funding bill was not only opposed by the majority of House Democrats, it was also ardently opposed by the speaker and even the lawmaker who drafted it, Appropriations Committee Chairman David R. Obey (D-Wis.). And it is destined to become law. ‘To have the chairman and the speaker vote against a bill like this, I’ve never heard of it,’ Hastert said.â€
***Simply put it was decided that Presidential Candidates Barack and Hillary would vote AGAINST the funding for Iraq to shield them from our anger. Same with Pelosi, the Speaker. The majority of House Democrats also voted against it, yet another apparently pre-planned, pre-calculated move to lessen our anger. Do you feel less angry? I don’t!
May 27th, 2007 at 4:08 pm#91 JTitor…I agree 100%. I just sent Kucinich a letter expressing that sentiment.
May 27th, 2007 at 4:09 pmAnt comment by michael — Are you a Neo-Conservative, Paleo-Conservative, Libertarian….?
May 27th, 2007 at 4:11 pmi.shall.never.ever.feed.the.trolls.ever.
beefeater is plainly in that category. . .
s m i l e
p e a c e
Comment by nolo
I wish I had your strength of character, nolo. Alas, I am weak, weak, weak.
May 27th, 2007 at 4:25 pmF*ck you, beefeater. I mean that most sincerely — f*ck you.
Comment by Zooey
I think beefeater is an Ann Coulter wannabe. How much of a loser does that make him/her?
May 27th, 2007 at 4:26 pmComment by Larry from C — There just comes a time that you have to be honest with yourself and say that we have very little true representation in government. I understand why we invaded Iraq. Internal Carlyle Group documents show that we are at an oil production tipping point. With the emergence of China’s consumption of oil growing at a expoential pace, who controls prices and production becomes crucial. If the Shi’a majorities in Iraq and Iran where to have merged at some point in the future, and that was the belief, then the Sunni controlled United Arab Emirates would loose their place at the head of the table. The way to ensure predictability was, and is, to overthrow both governments of Iraq and Iran. This has been my understanding for sometime. Just released from author Greg Palast; Armed Madhouse (which everyone should read), second edition talks about this in detail. This isn’t about terrorism. This is about market stability. This is about the “right” people making money long term.
May 27th, 2007 at 4:28 pm#92
At least you said what everyone else was thinking.
Is beefeater who he is or what he does?
May 27th, 2007 at 4:29 pm—–(UN)criticalthinker
If you thought critically, you would realize that the ones guilty are the ones that ordered and followed illegal orders to perpetrate a war crime.
Such as Torture. Such as dropping White Phospherous on Faluja. Detaining people indefinately without reprieve or address. Did I mention torture?
Equating all soldiers to war criminals is like saying all Americans are guilty of War Crimes because of the Masscre at Wounded Knee. Which ironically my family tree is represented on both sides of that travesty. Since I am a half-breed.
Put blame where blame belongs.
The blame starts at the top, with the original illegal orders, down to those that followed those illegal orders.
To date, no ranking officer has been jailed. Just grunts that were were too stupid to refuse illegal orders. Scapegoats.
Not unlike your broad brushing as all being guilty.
My son will follow lawfull orders and by military code refuse unlawfull orders.
Just as I followed only lawfull orders when I served.
Your posts remind me of a southern backwoods bigot blaming all of his percieved problems on “them damn upity N*$$#@^”.
Critical thinker, indeed……..
May 27th, 2007 at 4:31 pmThere just comes a time that you have to be honest with yourself and say that we have very little true representation in government.
I use to say that and get lambasted for it. All I would hear is well in the repugs yeah, but the Dems, truly represent us. The Dems care and will fight for what’s right.
Is beefeater who he is or what he does?
Comment by Patrick — May 27, 2007 @ 4:29 pm
May 27th, 2007 at 4:34 pmNow, now no need for bigoted anti-gay speech here.
Wayne,
trying to explain lawful and unlawful orders to him is rather futile. As far as he is concerned any American who is even standing in any country other than the U.S is guilty of war crimes.
You can think like that when you have never had to make a sacrifice for others.
May 27th, 2007 at 4:40 pmI use to say that and get lambasted for it. All I would hear is well in the repugs yeah, but the Dems, truly represent us. The Dems care and will fight for what’s right.
Thats why I have been calling for replacing every democrat that refused to block, slow or fillibuster for the last 6 years. They were part of the rubberstamping.
Is beefeater who he is or what he does?-Comment by Patrick
Since I suspect he also posts as pedophile MAF54, probably what he does. Heh.
Now, now no need for bigoted anti-gay speech here.
Comment by Tundra
lmao
May 27th, 2007 at 4:45 pmNolo, Zoey, Jaun c., Shane, Patrick, Et al:
Get. Your. Own. Blog. And. Moderate. All. Of. The. Trolls. Out.
It’s all fun and games until someone gets their little feeling hurt. “My nerves are frayed”, poor baby!
May 27th, 2007 at 4:52 pmYou can close your eyes and deny it all you want, the US and coalition soldiers who participated in the invasion of Iraq are war criminals.
Sorry if reality and the truth hurts, but HYPOCRISY is not a valid get out of crimes against humanity jail free card like in Monopoly!
Comment by criticalthinker — May 27, 2007 @ 4:03
OK, criticalthinker, answer this.
How many of the soldiers (that you brand as war criminals) had access to enough of the intel that the government used to approve the invasion of Iraq to make a decision on whether or not they were participating in an illegal invasion?
Also, using your (lack of) logic, every person that signed the AUMFI is a war criminal. Every person in the congress that has continually authorized additional funding (I think we are up to 8 supplementals now) for the war in Iraq is a war criminal.
Why are you continuing to support a party that, by your reasoning, is complicit in crimes against humanity and full of war criminals?
May 27th, 2007 at 5:13 pmComment by hacker bob
critical thinker, he is not.
May 27th, 2007 at 5:18 pm#98…I have my copy of Armed Madhouse sitting on the table right next to me…preaching to the choir here!
May 27th, 2007 at 5:23 pmI think criticalthinker has a valid point. There is too much emotion involved in this issue…therefore cant be debated rationally.
May 27th, 2007 at 5:36 pmComment by Wayne
> Well in the REALITY I livein, the U.N. Security Council voted unanimously to
> extend the U.S.-led forces’ mandate until the end of 2007.
> How can you think crtically when ignorant of the facts?
Very good Wayne. Makes me look up things, refresh memories. So…
the word is fig leaf for USUK. “But officer, it was just a little r*pe, the b*tch asked for it. And she liked it.” “Ok, but don’t do it again, otherwise I shall have to use … er … stern words.”
Links:
The Resolution Text. Pretty optimistic, ne?
http://www.folketinget.dk/samling/20061/umdel/UPN/Bilag/22/330201.PDF
UN Role In Post War Iraq:
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/unindex.htm
The UN, sadly in the usual tool scenario. Or maybe it’s Stockholm Syndrome:
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/occupation/report/introduction.pdf
The Strange Postwar Role of the Security Council and the UN
Having overwhelmingly rejected the use of force, the Security Council sharply reversed course after the invasion. Keen to avoid further tension with Washington and persuaded that no alternative options were available, Council members agreed to several resolutions that conceded legality to the occupation and provided it with financing from Iraq’s oil revenue. Resolution 1483 of May 22, 2003 recognized the US and the UK as “occupying authorities,†an effort to insure compliance with international humanitarian law. At the same time, the resolution also gave the Coalition the right to sell Iraqi oil, to take billions
of dollars from the UN’s Oil for Food accounts and to spend as they saw fit for “purposes benefiting the Iraqi people.†The Council’s anti-war majority was hopeful that, as the resolution insisted, the UN would play a “vital role†in Iraq, eventually taking over real responsibility. But this was self-deception. The Coalition had no intention of ceding authority to the United Nations and left only the most marginal role to it.
Sergio Veira de Mello, the UN’s Special Representative in Baghdad, tried to stake out an independent function for the UN, but the US-led administration gave him little room for maneuver, rejecting his proposals for broad consultation with Iraqis of all political persuasions. The “vital role†foreseen by the Security Council never materialized. On August 19, 2003, a truck bomb destroyed UN headquarters in Baghdad, killing Veira de Mello and thirteen members of his staff. Thereafter, the organization drastically reduced its presence in the country.
Yet in October 2003, the Security Council took another fateful step with Resolution 1511. In exchange for promises that a political process would soon lead to elections and a turnover of authority to Iraqis, the Council gave an official UN mandate to the occupation, making the Coalition a UN “multinational force.†The US and the UK afterwards stepped up their claims that they were acting on behalf of the UN and that the UN has provided legal authorization for what they do. Since that time, despite the many violations of international law by the Coalition, the Council has twice renewed the mandate.26 But it has never exercised any meaningful oversight of the MNF nor has it ever had a frank and full discussion of the Iraq matter. A few ambassadors, like Juan Gabriel Valdes of Chile and Adolfo Aguilar Zinser of Mexico, tried to press the issue early on, but Washington forced their governments to recall them, making it very clear that no dissent would be tolerated.27 As other ambassadors have reported ruefully, not
May 27th, 2007 at 5:40 pmeven questions are permitted when Washington presents its periodic reports.28
Very good Wayne. Makes me look up things, refresh memories. So…
the word is fig leaf for USUK —- El Tonno
I do not agree with the war in the least, and did not agree with the (fig leaf) UN resolution. Iraq was started under false pretenses.
I disagreed with the broad brush (UN)criticalthinker was using to paint all soldiers ( and very personally my own son currently serving ) as war criminals.
May 27th, 2007 at 5:51 pmI am not raising my two smart, beautiful sons to adulthood only to see them get maimed/killed in a war for the MIC/oil companies/elite; over MY DEAD BODY would they sign up for or be drafted into this rich man’s folly. Beware the mothers in this country… :-)
May 27th, 2007 at 6:00 pmBeware the mothers in this country… :-)
Comment by Laurie
If we only had more mothers in congress…..
=)
May 27th, 2007 at 6:08 pmComment by Larry from C — America has come to a cross roads. Your are starting to see more and more people from all political affiliations coming together under one common cause. That cause is far more important from my perspective then the war in Iraq. The loss of our constitution and civil liberties has caused my paradigm to shift greatly in the last couple of years. This move by the Neo-Conservatives (hibred Straussian-Trotskyism-Machiavellian approach to governance), has caused a ripple effect in the body politic. People are waking up and seeing a dictatorship coming. It’s our job to stop it. We are one terrorist attack away from a police state.
May 27th, 2007 at 6:13 pmWayne:
> I disagreed with the broad brush (UN)criticalthinker was using to paint all
> soldiers ( and very personally my own son currently serving ) as war criminals.
Yeah, I’m not for that characterization either.
Bad things are happening though. Who was it said “There was nothing more dangerous in Vietnam than an 18-year old with a shotgun” Oliver Stone I think…
May 27th, 2007 at 6:28 pm“I am not raising my two smart, beautiful sons to adulthood only to see them get maimed/killed in a war ”
Comment by Laurie — May 27, 2007 @ 6:00 pm
Of course not. You are going to control and smother those 2 boys all of their lives. NEVER will they do ANYTHING without mommy’s approval. Then, if they do grow up, they’ll be “worthless” husbands that “don’t do anything to help raise their own sons†and some poor women will have to do it all by herself. And don’t think she won’t be bitter about it.
May 27th, 2007 at 6:37 pm#113 JTitor, Unfortunately it looks like America is going to go through a very rough period of time. And by rough I mean some of the worst predictions made here and at other free-speech sites (Marshall Law, Innocent People herded away to detention camps, free speech overtly restricted, massive numerous fake terrorist attacks, our own military used as a police force here on our soil). Will it last 2, 3 or more generations? The only questions are how bad will it be and how long will it last?
The shame is that this situation was avoidable. Many saw it coming just as we see a car crash happen in slow motion. But with the media bought and owned and too few people seeking out accurate information on the internet it just didn’t happen rapidly enough to prevent.
May 27th, 2007 at 6:42 pmComment by beefeater — May 27, 2007 @ 6:37 pm
Project much?
May 27th, 2007 at 6:42 pmI find the trolls on this thread repulsive in their comments. They are the perennial cowards, the armchair warriors, and they are likely outside today waving their flags in the local parade, falsely believing that because they support this corrupt and warmongering administration, they are good citizens.
Thanks, Zooey at #66.
To the best of my knowledge the case of which I wrote is being pursued. The red tape, passing the buck and stonewalling, has begun.
May 27th, 2007 at 6:43 pmIf we only had more mothers in congress…..
Yes. Compared to the record of the rich, white men who have had the greater control for the past two hundred years, they could only do better.
May 27th, 2007 at 6:47 pmThe trolls will be quick to point out some women (like K.B. HUtchinson, who comes immediately to mind) or men (Kucinich and Feingold come to mind) don’t fit my generalization – I don’t deny there would be exceptions — but in the whole, the leadership of the congress could use a different perspective.
We need to have mandatory civil service in this country after high school for ALL Americans. They should be focused on DIPLOMACY rather than violence. We need armed forces but we desperately need diplomatic/peace keeping forces and each and every American has to contribute. With a force like that we could solve many of the problems we face at home and in the world. Americans are far too disconnected from this war and that is because they are not expected to SERVE their country in any way unless they volunteer for the service.
May 27th, 2007 at 6:47 pmLaurie,
Once your boys are men, they will make their own decisions. If they decide they will join the armed forces there is not one thing you can do about it. All you can do is raise them to believe in Peace and diplomacy and hope. I know, I have 3 sons, all are grown men and make their own choices.
May 27th, 2007 at 6:53 pmPray for Peace.
“What exactly is a father’s duty when his son is sent into harm’s way?”
You be a man and stand up for what you believe in… you know… like your son did. Oh, and you should also realize that your’s is just one voice that has united with many others, yet still your group is not loud enough to influence policy in the way in which you would like. Don’t be discouraged, but don’t expect more than is reasonable.
May 27th, 2007 at 6:56 pmComment by Ginko — May 27, 2007 @ 6:53 pm
Just what we need, someone named Ginko to lecture we mothers on the glaringly obvious.
May 27th, 2007 at 6:58 pmDon’t be discouraged, but don’t expect more than is reasonable.
Comment by Mr. President
You’re not a parent, are you Mr P?
Of course, you’re allowed to voice your opinion, but I don’t think you’re qualified to lecture on the duties of a parent.
And….that was a rhetorical question.
May 27th, 2007 at 7:01 pmOnce your boys are men, they will make their own decisions. If they decide they will join the armed forces there is not one thing you can do about it.
Comment by Ginko
Exactly. I think it is the duty of a father to teach their kids to do critical thinking. Every day we are bombed by ads, movies, TV series and merchandising in general, that there is a good side and there is a bad side. And we are always on the good side.
War propaganda uses this channels to turn something awfully wrong and absurd, which is war into a romantic and a fair event (for more depicting info, review every war scene Hollywood made), becuz we dont want wars but the bad side always push us to one, and we are not cowards, are we? If war is so necessary, why we dont see Presidents in the frontlines, like old war generals, or why jihadist leaders dont blow themselves up if killing infidels is so important?
We live in a world where human life is irrelevant if it gets in the way of trade and power. Patriotism is but a justification for atrocious things and the tool that the ruling class uses in order to keep its profits up and poor people down. Think, always think by yourself. Fear and consumption would take us nowhere.
May 27th, 2007 at 7:05 pm#120 Ginko…sounds like you support Dennis Kucinich’s Department of Peace. I consider it perhaps the greatest new idea in government in a long long time.
May 27th, 2007 at 7:10 pmWe live in a world where human life is irrelevant if it gets in the way of trade and power. Patriotism is but a justification for atrocious things and the tool that the ruling class uses in order to keep its profits up and poor people down. Think, always think by yourself. Fear and consumption would take us nowhere.
Comment by Juan C
Well said, Juan.
Thank you.
May 27th, 2007 at 7:13 pmThank you.
Comment by Zooey
And after reading your post I was going to apologize for thinking like a parent not being one. I was speaking like a son, of course.
And no, Thank you, Zoo.
May 27th, 2007 at 7:20 pmComment by Zooey — May 27, 2007 @ 7:01 pm
Actually, my advice to him was that he should not be discouraged. You know, on account of what he said:
“I know that my son did his best to serve our country. Through my own opposition to a profoundly misguided war, I thought I was doing the same. In fact, while he was giving his all, I was doing nothing. In this way, I failed him.”
My post told him not give up, because his voice was just one in many of a growing number of dissenting Americans, and that eventually if that groups numbers were large enough, policy would, in fact, be changed and he would not have failed.
But, no, I do not have the privilage of being a father. So I guess I had no business posting here.
My bad.
May 27th, 2007 at 7:33 pmAnd after reading your post I was going to apologize for thinking like a parent not being one. I was speaking like a son, of course.
And no, Thank you, Zoo.
Comment by Juan C
I know you were, Juan, you are very compassionate. :)
May 27th, 2007 at 7:37 pmBut, no, I do not have the privilage of being a father. So I guess I had no business posting here.
My bad.
Comment by Mr. President
Read my comment to you, and stop being stupid.
May 27th, 2007 at 7:45 pmZooey,
My comment was in response to Laurie saying how she didn’t want her boys to go to war. Obviously what I said wasn’t “glaringly obvious” to her considering her comment.
May 27th, 2007 at 7:49 pmmichael.
In reading your posts one thing is crystal clear. You are a racist.
There are a whole lot more Muslims in this world than you seem aware of. A very small fraction of them are Jihadist/Fundamentalists. The vast majority are not. Neocons are no different than Jihadists.
May 27th, 2007 at 8:29 pmmichael,
and one more thing. If you actually believe that invading Iraq in ANY WAY has reduced the threat of terrorism to the US you are dim indeed.
All Bush’s war has done is INCREASED terriosm and hatred towards the US while at the same time devastating an entire country of people and causing the loss of countless lives in the name of “Democracy”You 28%ers are such a dumb lot of folks you fell for his whole line of BS and you STILL BELIEVE IT. You know nothing at all if you believe Saddam Hussein had anything whatsoever to do with bin Laden or Al Queda or 9/11. The last he would have done is join forces with bin Laden.
May 27th, 2007 at 8:54 pmGinko You misguided Demwit this Bushes war has stopped the every two year Terrorist Attacks that we witnessed during the good old Clinton years . Perhaps you forgot or did not learn about the Embassy Hostage Crisis during the Carter Years after he did nothing as the Shaw of Iran was over thrown . What about the bombings of the Embassy and U.N. Peacekeeping Force ( U.S.Marines ) in Beirut Lebannon. I guess it was Bushes War then too . what about the world trade center in 93 , the two other embassies in africa , the USS Cole . What about the Bombings in Teheti , the comuter trains in Spain , the London Subway , I know Bushes War then too. our Presence in the Middle East is not Needed to produce terrorist . your the reason they exist . you are alive . Soldiers have been dying so that you can live and Spout your Liberal Bullshit . You should be thankful this weekend .I think most of all you should be thankful that we do not have a president fighting on the side of the Muslins , where by the way we still have a peacekeeping force protecting the Albanians like the ones who were going to kill at Fort Dix. Guess thats Bush’s Fault too.
May 27th, 2007 at 9:36 pmThere is Good News though only 26% of the Muslims in this Country think that Suicide Bombings are Cool when Defending your Religion
: )
when is the last time any of you people sent any money to a Service Support Group like Soldiers Angels or The U.S.O. ? Just as I thought . You Profess to Support the Troops but You Don’t . Wink
May 27th, 2007 at 9:45 pmHey Ginko
May 27th, 2007 at 9:53 pmI thought you were going to Badhdad to broker Peace Deal with the Terrorist ? Hey Demwit , when was the last time you saw a neocon sawing off a screaming head on Youtube ? you speak such silly nonsense . Now get that Ticket to Baghdad International so I can watch your head roll around on the floor on Youtube, after you find peace on their terms.
“My nerves are frayedâ€, poor baby!
Comment by beefeater — May 27, 2007 @ 4:52 pm
You don’t have any nerve. But I just saw Borat and am thinking of you, wink, wink.
May 27th, 2007 at 9:57 pmComment by Laurie — May 27, 2007 @ 6:00 pm
Of course not. You are going to control and smother those 2 boys all of their lives. NEVER will they do ANYTHING without mommy’s approval. Then, if they do grow up, they’ll be “worthless†husbands that “don’t do anything to help raise their own sons†and some poor women will have to do it all by herself. And don’t think she won’t be bitter about it.
Comment by beefeater
Laurie, take solace in knowing your sons will grow up to be nothing like beefeater. Look at how little he understands of the mother/child bond. Because you choose not to raise sons who glorify war he suggests they will not make good husbands and fathers.
May 27th, 2007 at 10:09 pmAs the mother of a little girl I can tell you that I’d prefer she marry a man raised like your sons than bible thumping, war mongers like beefeater. I would guess he’s divorced with a bitter exwife and children who prefer not to spend time with him and that he doesn’t contribute financially to any of them.
Hey Shane
May 27th, 2007 at 10:18 pmHave you any idea where all those Blond Haired Blue eyed Albanian Muslims came from ? The Muslims killed all the Men like the ones Laurie wants her daughters to marry raped the women and raised their children muslim . this has been going on for Centuries . our turn will come in time.
Just as I thought . You Profess to Support the Troops but You Don’t . Wink
Comment by radical1a — May 27, 2007 @ 9:45 pm
Why aren’t YOU fighting in Iraq big talker?
May 27th, 2007 at 10:20 pm116. Comment by Larry from C — It really depends on how excellerated their timeline is? Many things they didn’t anticipate, and the infrastructure isn’t in place. We are looking at 1 to 3 years max. Have you seen the new chipping program that the Mason’s have introduced? Google: Freemasons Child Identification Program (CHIP). But it’s free, so it’s ok. The real conservatives like Ron Paul, and libertarians have been the most vocal.
The liberals trust their party far too much to not see it has been partially compromised, and has fallen in lock step with the boot-lickers. Another thing that makes me laugh regarding the troll’s that spew their love for Neo-Con idiocy. Neo-Cons are followers of GWF Hegel, which Marx based “The Communist Manifesto”, Hegel’s philosophical doctrine of; thesis, antithesis, and synthesis. Then the Neo-Con love daddy Leo Strauss put it all together in a e-a-s-y to understand philosophy that even Paul Wolfoditz could understand. Figure this one out: The Owl of Minerva holds the key.
May 27th, 2007 at 10:22 pmWhy blame Edward Kennedy? I can understand blaming John Kerry, who voted for the war before he opposed it. But Kennedy? How is Kennedy beholden to the “military industrial complex’s” War in Iraq? Facts please.
And how does the author propose to override a presidential veto? The Republicans votes aren’t there.
May 27th, 2007 at 10:51 pm#142 – It appears JTitor’s name was hijacked by radical1a.
May 27th, 2007 at 10:56 pmHello Shane the Demwit , because I already served before you were born I am 51 and a lot wiser than you . I have lived through what I wrote about .
May 27th, 2007 at 11:12 pmLaurie, take solace in knowing your sons will grow up to be nothing like beefeater. Look at how little he understands of the mother/child bond. Because you choose not to raise sons who glorify war he suggests they will not make good husbands and fathers.
Comment by shane — May 27, 2007 @ 10:09 pm
Actually I was quoting someone else, that’s what those “†thingies are for. It’s from this little exchange.
Don’t send a women to do a mans job.
May 27th, 2007 at 11:20 pmComment by beefeater
F*ck you, lame-assed eater.
I’m getting tired of the misogyny going on around here, so zip it.
This is from a woman who took up the slack for a man who taught his children NOTHING. You got it — I’ve been a “man’s job†all of my sons’ lives.
STFU.
Comment by ????? — May 22, 2007 @ 10:44 pm
The Meek Shall Inherit the Earth in 3×6 Foot Plots , R.H. Heinlein , U.S. Navy Veteran , Author and Democrat , but you people in no way resemble a Democrat of that day and time
May 27th, 2007 at 11:24 pmradicallydumb
hard to believe you could live over 50 years and still be as dumb as a rock. A typical Bush supporter, dumber than dirt.
May 27th, 2007 at 11:25 pmGoodnight Demwits sleep well knowing our military personnel are dying for you , the ungrateful .
May 27th, 2007 at 11:29 pmComment by beefeater — May 27, 2007 @ 11:20 pm
Can’t come up with your own stuff, beaneater? You are inadequate and creepy.
Get a life, loser.
May 27th, 2007 at 11:31 pmHey Ginko you could go take a big hairy dump and scoop your brains out of the toilet and eat them : )
May 27th, 2007 at 11:33 pmGoodnight Demwits sleep well knowing our military personnel are dying for you , the ungrateful .
Comment by radical1a
Sorry, nobody is dying for me. I havent given anyone that stupid mission. Just like Im no guilty of Jesus crucifixion. So, I will pass the indoctrination. Thats not for me, thanks anyway.
May 27th, 2007 at 11:42 pmIt’s so easy to blame others such as the Dems for this invasion. The mirror shows who’s at fault. Bush was voted in by the people and it’s up to the people to take him out. As each elected officials has a vote and there are still alot of paid GOP to make sure Bush’s policies get passed. We have soldiers that need the money and Bush is stealing some of it. We the American people are solely responsible for what is happening to blame others is being a coward and a fool. The American people put Bush in office and the American people can take him out.
May 28th, 2007 at 12:01 amComment by michael — May 27, 2007 @ 2:22 pm
Did this war create the muslim terrorists that took over our embassy in Iran in 1979?
Nope the CIA killing their democratically elected president did. Then the CIA controlled Sha killing and torturing and useing false flag terrorism really pissed off Iran.
Did this war create the muslim terrorists that bombed our embassy in Beirut in 1982?
Nope that was more CIA controlled terrorism to keep the Israeli/Arab tension at all time highs. Also the illegal settlements as released from Isael intelligence assisted in the tension.
Did this war create the muslim terrorists blew up the Marine barracks in Beirut in 1983?
Well we kicked the shit out of them after ‘82 so they might have just been looking for some breathing room.
Did this war create the muslim terrorists who took over the Achille Lauro in 1985?
No those were some real badasses, funded and created by US foreign policy.
Did this war create the muslim terrorists who bombed the disco in Berlin in 1986?
There is no verdict on who did this, looks much more like false flag terrorism than some Islamic mastermind that was a simple cab driver with flimsy links at best. For more, go here.
Did this war create the muslim terrorists who blew up Pan Am Flight 103 in 1988?
This also has not been resolved as to who did it, for more info go here.
Did this war create the muslim terrorists who bombed the World Trade Center in 1993?
Nope, the FBI used them as scapegoats. Head of FBI in NY is on court evidence talking to the set up guy. 1993 was an inside job no doubt about that, way too much evidence to defend that one.
Did this war create the muslim terrorists who bombed the Air Force housing complex in Saudi Arabia in 1996?
Do you do any research at all??? Read the many articles pointing to a CIA/FBI cover/up like this one.
Did this war create the muslim terrorists who blew up our African embassies in 1998?
Definitely CAI/ISI with Al Qaeda scapegoats.
Did this war create the muslim terrorists who bombed the USS Cole in 2000?
Same as prior one-CIA / ISI
Did this war create the muslim terrorists who brought down the Twin Towers in 2001?
This war had nothing to do with the building being blown up and CHeney giving stand down orders so the missle could hit the pentagon. Or Guiliani removing all the evidence, or anyone who questioned the BS story getting military grade anthrax, or worse. You still think it was Bush’s coke mule, Mohammed Atta?
The answer to all these questions is NO! They have been killing us for decades! When are you liberals going to develop enough spine to understand it will NEVER end until all the terrorists are DEAD!
You obviously have no concept of what terrorism is, what US foreign policy is, what the issues are that face the various factions within the arab population, or what a spine is. For you to be too lazy to do one ounce of research shows you are a gutless spineless cowardly jellyfish that rather spew off talking points that read a book so that you can help bring our kids home. You are the weak and the feeble. You represent the traitorous treasonous, inept, and destructive ignorant force that is (as GWB would say) “aiding the terrorists.â€
May 28th, 2007 at 3:45 amMarie,
first off I would like to apologize about the hippy protester signature, I felt that it was a harmless jab. Obviousy I was mistaken and offer my sincere apology. As for the rest of my posts in that matter I was genuine. Believe it or not a simple letter to a congressman/congresswoman is usually a quick resolution to such circumstances.
I feel the one thing I have been consistant on is my concern for individuals who have choosen to serve this country. I feel a better avenue than allowing the red tape to continue is getting veteran groups involved. While we may be a bunch of mangy, loudmouth bast@dges, for the most part we are a group that will grab hold of an issue such as that and stand tall till it is resolved.
May 28th, 2007 at 4:06 amAll those who have children in this war are actually helping sponsoring US state terrorism ????? Karma might get you back
Find your children a proper job – that dont involve Killing as a job description
May 28th, 2007 at 8:51 amWhat a heatbreaking quandary in the Bacevich family. Andrew writes so eloquently against the Iraq fiasco but his son, l following in his military footsteps, feels compelled to participate and is killed. Could there be any greater pain for an American hero than such loss of his son..
May 28th, 2007 at 12:42 pmMicheal/beefeater/assorted morons:
You are basically wimps in love with machismo: Fake masculinity aimed at overcompenating for
A man is defined by what he creates, not what he destroys, and all you are incapable of creating anything.
May 28th, 2007 at 2:08 pmThe military is a real job……How dare you make a blanket statement as such???
Comment by lizzy
A job that entails killing people and destroying their property!!! Moron!
May 29th, 2007 at 7:27 pmThe answer to all these questions is NO! They have been killing us for decades! When are you liberals going to develop enough spine to understand it will NEVER end until all the terrorists are DEAD!
Comment by michael
The only person I REALLY want to see dead, is YOU!!!!!
May 29th, 2007 at 7:37 pm