U.S. troops in Iraq no longer ‘true believers.’
By on May 27th, 2007 at 8:55 pm
U.S. troops in Iraq no longer ‘true believers.’
“‘In 2003, 2004, 100 percent of the soldiers wanted to be here, to fight this war,’ said Sergeant First Class David Moore, a self-described ‘conservative Texas Republican’ and platoon sergeant who strongly advocates an American withdrawal. ‘Now, 95 percent of my platoon agrees with me.’”
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Why does the chymp hate these troops?
May 27th, 2007 at 9:03 pmBecause they tell the truth>?
I’ve never been a true believer. This war was wrong from the start. It should never have happened.
May 27th, 2007 at 9:06 pmWhy do the troops hate the troops?
May 27th, 2007 at 9:08 pmOne troll shows up and says anything negative about the troops wanting to leave and I’m going to go postal.
May 27th, 2007 at 9:22 pmThese soldiers know that the Bushies lied the country to war, they know it’s all about geopolitics, they’re carrying out the neocon plan, just doing their duties. Makes me very, very angry. Speaking out is great, what do they have to lose?
May 27th, 2007 at 9:25 pmI hear you shane, just ignore the ignorant cowards.
May 27th, 2007 at 9:26 pmIf Dubya, Cheney, and rest of the crime family had served in war, they would have anticipated this change. They are misusing the troops by making them do multiple rotations. War is not a video game…it is not an ego toy for boy bush, the chief thug of the crime family.
We need to rise up and force Dubya to make a move.
May 27th, 2007 at 9:30 pmI hear you, Shane.
My dad was a letter carrier, so I have a couple of shirts.
Suit Up!
;)
May 27th, 2007 at 9:31 pmMy dad was a letter carrier, so I have a couple of shirts.
Suit Up!
;)
Comment by trueblue
Right on, we’ll get em with mace!
May 27th, 2007 at 9:43 pmShane,
:)
May 27th, 2007 at 9:45 pmI could post up news articles of soldiers saying the opposite, but I’ll let Think Progress brainwash their readers with their cherry-picked truth. However, if you’re going to use this one soldier as The Epitome of Truth, you’re not going to like what else he said:
So if we leave, things will get much worse for the Iraqis. You don’t say. Now the only question is whether anyone who visits this site actually cares about the Iraqis… (The answer to which is no)
May 27th, 2007 at 9:51 pmdream crusher,
First of all – LINK, please.
You trolls never give a link to an actual NEWS story!
Second, they are already in a civil war.
Just because dopey doesn’t admit it doesn’t mean that it’s not true.
May 27th, 2007 at 9:59 pmDreamCrusher
the only question is whether you actually care about the us troops.
May 27th, 2007 at 10:02 pmThat 5% is just another combat hazard that the other 95% have to worry about.
May 27th, 2007 at 10:06 pmThe mission has failed big time.But folks the pathetic figure is Gen. Patreus(sp) who his commanding against his own manual on insurgency.Just for the fact that he,Gen. Patreus wants to wear another star he has supported a policy that runs counter-productive of his own combat philosophy on insurgencies.In the mean time how many more young innocent Americans will die for one man’s ambition ?
May 27th, 2007 at 10:09 pmSo if we leave, things will get much worse for the Iraqis. You don’t say. Now the only question is whether anyone who visits this site actually cares about the Iraqis… (The answer to which is no)
Comment by DreamCrusher
What’s the answer? According to Safstrom, the country will descend into chaos no matter when we leave. Should we stay there indefinitely and keep losing more lives and keep spending 2 billion dollars a week that we don’t have?
I also SERIOUSLY doubt that you care about the Iraqis. I think you’re being VERY disingenuous just to make some propaganda points here.
Personally I hate to see any people suffer, but ultimately I am more loyal to MY country than I am to THEIRS. And I think that our continued presence there will only end up doing more damage to our country in the long run.
The truth of the matter is, that we shouldn’t have invaded Iraq in the first place. This whole sad outcome was very, VERY predictable. Trying to encourage the continuation of this war, merely to try and rectify the heinous mistakes made by the Bush administration is, IMO, criminal and ultimately an impossible task.
Like Colin Powell once said… “You break it, you own it.”
Well, it’s broken alright.
May 27th, 2007 at 10:12 pmA little off topic, but for the first couple of months in Nam, most of us were true believers as well.
May 27th, 2007 at 10:17 pmThe truth has a way of seeping into your soul, and after a while, denial just doesn’t cut it.
I could post up news articles of soldiers saying the opposite, but I’ll let Think Progress brainwash their readers with their cherry-picked truth.
Comment by DreamCrusher
I have no doubt that many soldiers are committed to the war. In fact the article in question even said that many of the YOUNGER recruits were gung ho about their mission.
The question is, what PERCENTAGE of soldiers are still committed to the war and haw many aren’t.
So, come up with some statistic, from a credible source, that contradicts this story or STFU.
However, if you’re going to use this one soldier as The Epitome of Truth, you’re not going to like what else he said:
Comment by DreamCrusher
Yeah, so what? He also said this..
Which you actually quoted but seemed to have ignore.
Dude, your a complete and utter buffoon. Why don’t you head back to the Free Republic where you belong, with all the other buffoons.
May 27th, 2007 at 10:27 pmtrueblue,
The link is in the Think Progress post, genius. If you had any reading comprehension skills, you’d have figured that out, since I quoted from the article Think Progress does, and said so. Durrrrrrrrr.
It’s also interesting that you think you know more about what’s going on in Iraq than a soldier who’s actually there. The only ones who really think that Iraq is in a civil war are the Sunnis, for obvious reasons. But hey, don’t let people actually in Iraq tell you what the truth about Iraq is, I’m sure Think Progress knows more!
robbie,
the only question is whether you actually care about the us troops.
In fact, I care more about the well-being of an entire country of people than a small segment of the American population who are honorably trying to help that country with its problems. Let’s face the facts here – you don’t care about the Iraqis or the US troops, you care about your political posturing in opposing your political enemies. Nice try at deflecting the awful, awful elephant in the room here that you guys don’t give a damn about the Iraqi people.
JPV,
I also SERIOUSLY doubt that you care about the Iraqis. I think you’re being VERY disingenuous just to make some propaganda points here.
Yes, me, the person who supported removing the horrible dictator of Iraq, the person who’d like to see Iraq emerge a functioning democracy, the person who’d like to see Iraq be given the opportunity to carve out their own destiny free from dictatorship, the person who’d not repeat the mistake we made in Afghanistan in the 1980s by leaving a power vacuum ending up in a sanctuary for religious extremists and al Qaeda – yes, clearly I’m being disingenuous about caring about the Iraqi people.
You, the one who’d rather have Saddam Hussein still there, the one who would have left Iraq in that status quo, the person who’d rather have universal health care than let an Iraqi have his freedom of speech, clearly you’re the one who cares about the Iraqis.
Really? Really? You sure you want to go down that road? Because I’ve already made you look like a fool. Let me know if you want to continue.
Personally I hate to see any people suffer, but ultimately I am more loyal to MY country than I am to THEIRS. And I think that our continued presence there will only end up doing more damage to our country in the long run.
Exactly as I said – you care more about YOUR people than THEIR people because you are a selfish person, and it is this type of egocentric thought that is the reason why the world is so messed up today.
Our non-presence in Afghanistan in the 1980s was the entire reason why the Taliban came to power and gave sanctuary to al Qaeda, which led to the death of 3,000 people in the USA. If you truly want to repeat the mistakes of the past, then sure, we can leave Iraq right now and see the same thing happen there.
The truth of the matter is, that we shouldn’t have invaded Iraq in the first place. This whole sad outcome was very, VERY predictable. Trying to encourage the continuation of this war, merely to try and rectify the heinous mistakes made by the Bush administration is, IMO, criminal and ultimately an impossible task.
Translation: changing the world is hard work, so we should rather say screw it and focus on making things better for ourselves.
Again, the liberals of today are selfish bastards. You care more about health care for Americans than freedom of speech for Iraqis. This is not what being progressive and liberal is supposed to be about, but in this day and age, it is what it has become.
Well, it’s broken alright.
Iraq has been broken for decades, and we’re only now trying to fix it, if you’ll let us.
May 27th, 2007 at 10:28 pmSo if we leave, things will get much worse for the Iraqis. You don’t say. Now the only question is whether anyone who visits this site actually cares about the Iraqis… (The answer to which is no)
Comment by DreamCrusher
No the real question is if you neocons care about the welfare of American soldiers. And that answer is no. You think they are cannon fodder and you and your pathetic heros in the administration use them to further your political agenda and so that you don’t lose face. You people invaded Iraq for no reason and created the vacuum that will create any problems that arise after we leave. And THAT is the reason we can’t leave, because you and your chest thumping ilk are too cowardly to lose face.
May 27th, 2007 at 10:28 pmThe soldiers in Iraq should refuse to fight any longer for Dubya. They should lay down their weapons and not go on any more missions.
May 27th, 2007 at 10:32 pmJPV,
So, come up with some statistic, from a credible source, that contradicts this story or STFU.
In other words, you’ll believe the cherry-picked truth TP has come up with, and if I’m not able to present you with the whole truth (which is impossible since I cannot take a poll of all the military in Iraq), then you’ll just stick to that sliver of the truth because it suits you. How illuminating.
Which you actually quoted but seemed to have ignore.
Obviously you didn’t get the point I was trying to make: making one soldier’s opinion into The Epitome of Truth is the work of propagandists. His opinion does not matter more than anyone else’s, but Think Progress chooses part of his opinion and makes it their Truth. I’m sorry the simple point I was trying to make didn’t make its way into your brain, hopefully now that I’ve spoon-fed it to you, you’ll have comprehended.
Dude, your a complete and utter buffoon. Why don’t you head back to the Free Republic where you belong, with all the other buffoons.
Now, now, settle down, just because you don’t agree with me doesn’t mean you have to call me names and ask me to leave. After all, challenging your own positions is intellectually healthy. We wouldn’t want Think Progress to be an echo chamber, would we? Hmm wait, don’t answer that.
May 27th, 2007 at 10:32 pmThe title is misleading. “Some” US troops are no longer true believers. The IHT article is based on one platoon.
Let’s strive for complete honesty in the future; let the Bushies do the misleading.
May 27th, 2007 at 10:35 pmshane,
No the real question is if you neocons care about the welfare of American soldiers. And that answer is no. You think they are cannon fodder and you and your pathetic heros in the administration use them to further your political agenda and so that you don’t lose face.
If we were in 1944 right now, imagine the discourse between us. Would you use the same arguments? Probably not. Why? Because you probably agreed with that war. The point I’m trying to make is that you are feigning concern over the troops simply because you disagree with the war.
As I said to someone else already, I care more about the well-being of an entire nation of people, Iraq, than I do about a small segment of the American population who are bravely and honorably trying to help those people in Iraq who have had less than all of us for decades. Every soldier who dies in Iraq is doing so for a noble purpose, to give Iraqis the opportunities that all of you take for granted every single day. If you ruin this mission, all of their lives will have been wasted for naught, just like they were in Vietnam.
You people invaded Iraq for no reason and created the vacuum that will create any problems that arise after we leave. And THAT is the reason we can’t leave, because you and your chest thumping ilk are too cowardly to lose face.
For no reason? Ah yes, the democracy, the freedom of speech, freedom from oppression, market freedom, these are not reasons at all! It’s all an illusion!
The reason why we can’t leave has been spelled out by every single expert and everyone who has been to Iraq: if we leave, we will repeat the same mistake as we made in Afghanistan in the 1980s, a mistake which inevitably led to 9/11.
We can make this work, but it will take time. Unfortunately, many of you care more about domestic politics than the well-being of a country of 27 million people.
May 27th, 2007 at 10:39 pmThis guy doesn’t support the troops. He must be a democrat because he’s against the war. Apparently the kool aid wore off and these guys finally see the truth. I could have told them years ago that the war was a waste of lives, money and time. There has never been a sucessful end to getting involved in the middle of a civil war. The President has been using the troops for political purposes and they’ve been fooled by the fake support and empty words he uses.
I’ll bet this Sergeant’s career is over for having a mind of his own. He doesn’t realize that troops aren’t suppose to think, they should just follow orders, die and be greatful for the opportunity.
May 27th, 2007 at 10:40 pmThe title is misleading. “Some†US troops are no longer true believers. The IHT article is based on one platoon.
Shhhh, pipe down there son, we don’t want to interrupt the brainwashing process.
May 27th, 2007 at 10:40 pmhey there creamcruiser………..anyone who supported this war in 2002/03 was/is braindead. i assume that includes you,thus your constant and desperate search for reasons why the us must stay.
you’re perched on the brink of insanity at this point,eh?
to save your troubled soul,try asking for forgiveness instead of continuing to spread your bullshit.
May 27th, 2007 at 10:41 pmIraq has been broken for decades, and we’re only now trying to fix it, if you’ll let us.
Comment by DreamCrusher — May 27, 2007 @ 10:28 pm
This long post of your is disingenuous at least but more likely blatant fabrications of politically expedient spin. You neocon trolls are notorious for whining about islaimfascism and all the dangers involved. And now you say that we are in Iraq to help the Iraqis. Well THAT battle has been lost. Four million Iraqis have left the country and more have been uprooted from their homes.
You and your idiot president Bush change your motivation for the Iraqi war daily. So don’t come her telling us today we’re helping Iraqis when next week you will be talking about the dangers of terrorists. The situtation for the people in Iraq gets continuously worse while more terrorist are being created all the time. You and your kind are frankly full of talking points with no substance.
May 27th, 2007 at 10:41 pmDreamCrusher > unless you pay for the occupation of Iraq out of your pocket directly, then zip your yapper. We the people want our tax dollars used in the US and we want Universal Healthcare too. We do not want every dime in America to go to Iraq to help OIL Cartel to steal their crude for profits. Stop twisting things on here for Karl Rove.
May 27th, 2007 at 10:45 pmShorter Dream Crusher:
Why won’t the Iraqis understand that we’re killing them for their own good?
May 27th, 2007 at 10:47 pmFor no reason? Ah yes, the democracy, the freedom of speech, freedom from oppression, market freedom, these are not reasons at all! It’s all an illusion!
The reason why we can’t leave has been spelled out by every single expert and everyone who has been to Iraq: if we leave, we will repeat the same mistake as we made in Afghanistan in the 1980s, a mistake which inevitably led to 9/11.
We can make this work, but it will take time. Unfortunately, many of you care more about domestic politics than the well-being of a country of 27 million people.
Comment by DreamCrusher
Don’t for a minute think you know what I or other posters here think or feel about the Iraqis. I for one feel that we are attracting terrorists like magnets. And that every day innocents are dying for a war we created for oil. And on top of that the administration is doing its utmost to ensure we steal the oil, the only real resource these people have out from under them for the next 30 years. They are already desperate enough to start growing poppies because they have nothing else. You want to help them, sure you do.
May 27th, 2007 at 10:47 pmrobbie,
Thanks for the invective and checking out of the discussion. Let me know when you’ve settled down and would like to have a real frank discussion. Thanks.
shane,
It would appear you have a one-track mind. In other words, it is incomprehensible to you that one could have a whole array of reasons to be in Iraq, and continue to fight there. You seem to only have enough memory in your brain for one thing at a time, so you see “us”, as you put it, “change your motivation for the Iraqi war daily”. The motivation for the Iraq war was an array of reasons, not one at a time. Just because only one of them may be discussed at a time doesn’t mean that the others still do not exist.
Or do you only have one reason for doing things in your life?
Four million Iraqis have left the country and more have been uprooted from their homes.
That seems to be a tad overblown.
The situtation for the people in Iraq gets continuously worse while more terrorist are being created all the time. You and your kind are frankly full of talking points with no substance.
This is also completely wrong and simplistic. Most of the problems in Iraq are in Baghdad. Many other areas of Iraq have been fine for quite some time, and even more are getting better, such as Anbar province where the US military made deals with Sunni militias and got them to focus on al Qaeda.
Your assertion that more terrorists are being created all the time is something you cannot verify nor prove – yet it is beyond any reasonable doubt that we are killing hundreds and thousands of terrorists through our fight in Iraq.
Things inevitably get worse before they get better, whether its surgery or the reformation of a broken country.
I know you, with your probable liberal beliefs, think that things should just be perfect right away and everything in life should be simple and easy, and if not, then it’s not worth it.
Yet that’s why we have people getting high all day instead of getting a job, that’s why we are getting worse and worse in education, because people like you just give up when the going gets tough. You want the easy way, or nothing.
Reforming an Arab country from a dictatorship to a functioning democracy has never been done before in world history, yet you seem to expect it to be easy and done with in 4 years.
Or maybe you just don’t give a damn because your man isn’t president.
May 27th, 2007 at 10:53 pmCraniums of Bush lover trolls are either pumped full of helium or filled with rancid olive oil > lol.
May 27th, 2007 at 10:53 pm“The reason why we can’t leave has been spelled out by every single expert and everyone who has been to Iraq: if we leave, we will repeat the same mistake as we made in Afghanistan in the 1980s, a mistake which inevitably led to 9/11.”
nonsense. first off, we already made the same mistake in afghanistan by dumping that war in nato’s lap and hoping that karzai’s tenuous hold somehow improves [considering this year's record opium crop, that's unlikely]. and last i checked, the u.s. didn’t occupy afghanistan with 150,000 american troops in the ’80s, so that analogy doesn’t fly.
May 27th, 2007 at 10:54 pmJay,
You just proved my point. Thanks. For you liberals it’s all about me, me, me. Gimme gimme gimme. Screw the Iraqis! Me, me, me! Eloquently proven, thanks.
shane,
Don’t for a minute think you know what I or other posters here think or feel about the Iraqis.
I don’t have to, several have already spelled out quite clearly that they care more about health care for themselves than freedom and democracy for Iraqis. Look around you, you’re surrounded by selfish egomaniacs. Don’t say I didn’t warn you.
I for one feel that we are attracting terrorists like magnets.
We are, we are attracting them to Iraq. Isn’t it better to attract them to Iraq, where we have our military, than to our homeland to kill our civilians?
And that every day innocents are dying for a war we created for oil. And on top of that the administration is doing its utmost to ensure we steal the oil, the only real resource these people have out from under them for the next 30 years. They are already desperate enough to start growing poppies because they have nothing else. You want to help them, sure you do.
Now this is very interesting. You claim we are stealing their oil. Yet we have not stolen a single drop. What the invasion of Iraq changes is that, instead of Saddam Hussein milking the oil of Iraq for his personal benefit, the people of Iraq are now selling their own oil for their own benefit. Instead of Saddam Hussein giving oil deals for political favors from France, China, and Russia, Iraq is selling oil to the highest bidder on the international market, and investing that oil money into their country for the Iraqi people.
So you’re essentially arguing for the right of a dictator to maintain the oil wealth of a country for himself rather than have the people being able to sell their oil for their own benefit.
How progressive is that??
May 27th, 2007 at 10:59 pmFor Bush, War is like taking a bath. In the begging the water is hot but as time goes by it turns cold. I don’t want to confuse him any more than he is.
May 27th, 2007 at 11:00 pmLOL see how DreamFool twists facts > Iraq’s oil is being stolen, but he claims the profits are being invested for common Iraqis. Dream just proved he is a paid GOPer troll, so ignore him.
May 27th, 2007 at 11:09 pmJay,
Ah yes, Ann Coulter calls Muslims ragheads, and thus everyone who agreed to the invasion of Iraq are equally guilty. That’s a mighty slippery slope you’ve started on there, I wouldn’t want to smear you with some retarded thing a liberal has said…
I won’t because I’m not a ridiculous smear merchant uninterested in real debate as you are. Instead of debating, you smear.
May 27th, 2007 at 11:10 pm“That seems to be a tad overblown.”
you’re right. according to the u.n., it’s only 1.9 million iraqis who have been displaced.
May 27th, 2007 at 11:15 pmDream > you are worthless nobody being paid to post on here, so cut the crap. Nobody on here wastes their time debating a paid GOPer troll.
May 27th, 2007 at 11:15 pmHey DreamCrusher, how’s that surge working?
Any better than shock ‘n awe?
Any better than being greeted as liberators?
Got any WMD’s?
Seem OBL lately?
Problem is, the right has already F*CKED this war six ways from Sunday and lied to everyone and stabbed everyone in the back who ever stood up for them so badly – especially those we honor tomorrow – that there’s nothing left to say. You’re all used up.
At this point it doesn’t matter if you cure cancer, you have no credibility. You’ve entrenched us in a civil war and spent out the treasury, and no one really wants to listen to more of your insanity.
May 27th, 2007 at 11:20 pmThe dreamcreamer seems to think that there’s something noble in imposing democracy by force. Let me just edit one little thing to make it more credible.
“Reforming an Arab country from a dictatorship to a functioning democracy has never been done before in world history, yet you seem to expect it to be easy and done with in 400 years.”
May 27th, 2007 at 11:21 pmIn other words, you’ll believe the cherry-picked truth TP has come up with, and if I’m not able to present you with the whole truth (which is impossible since I cannot take a poll of all the military in Iraq), then you’ll just stick to that sliver of the truth because it suits you. How illuminating.
Comment by DreamCrusher
Nice dodge. Still waiting for you to post some stats from a credible source.
Obviously you didn’t get the point I was trying to make: making one soldier’s opinion into The Epitome of Truth is the work of propagandists. His opinion does not matter more than anyone else’s, but Think Progress chooses part of his opinion and makes it their Truth. I’m sorry the simple point I was trying to make didn’t make its way into your brain, hopefully now that I’ve spoon-fed it to you, you’ll have comprehended.
Comment by DreamCrusher
I read the whole article. Did you? The point that TP was trying to make seemed pretty consistent throughout the article. I seriously don’t see this as a case of cherry picking.
Yes, me, the person who supported removing the horrible dictator of Iraq, the person who’d like to see Iraq emerge a functioning democracy, the person who’d like to see Iraq be given the opportunity to carve out their own destiny free from dictatorship, the person who’d not repeat the mistake we made in Afghanistan in the 1980s by leaving a power vacuum ending up in a sanctuary for religious extremists and al Qaeda – yes, clearly I’m being disingenuous about caring about the Iraqi people.
Comment by DreamCrusher
You can NOT force “democracy on a people. It doesn’t work that way. Ultimately, thanks to the British and French intentionally dividing the region up into groups of warring tribes, for the sake of some cynical geopolitical strategy, I firmly believe that the country can only work under a dictator. I don’t like it but I do believe that it’s a fact.
You, the one who’d rather have Saddam Hussein still there, the one who would have left Iraq in that status quo, the person who’d rather have universal health care than let an Iraqi have his freedom of speech, clearly you’re the one who cares about the Iraqis.
Comment by DreamCrusher
Iraq had the most advanced health care in the Arab world, until OUR sanctions destroyed that system, that is. And being that it was a SECULAR state, and not an Islamic one, women had far more freedom and opportunities than in other Arab countries. Our invasion has brought back the suppression of women.
Am I saying that Iraq didn’t have human rights problems? Of course not. But they also weren’t the worst offenders in that regard. One of our allies, Turkey, has a record of far greater human rights abuses than Iraq. Why don’t we invade them too?
Exactly as I said – you care more about YOUR people than THEIR people because you are a selfish person, and it is this type of egocentric thought that is the reason why the world is so messed up today.
Comment by DreamCrusher
Errrr… correct me if I’m wrong here, but didn’t the original rationale for invading Iraq, have something to do with WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION that the administration claimed would be used against us? Now how in the hell is that not also a selfish reason for the invasion?
The ever shifting reason that buffoons like you use for the invasion, has now evolved into the idea of spreading democracy and freedom, only because the original rationale has proven to be either erroneous or fabricated.
Give me a break.
Again, the liberals of today are selfish bastards. You care more about health care for Americans than freedom of speech for Iraqis. This is not what being progressive and liberal is supposed to be about, but in this day and age, it is what it has become.
Comment by DreamCrusher
Got news for you buddy boy. I consider my self a traditional conservative. That being the case, I adhere to traditional conservative values such as fiscal responsibility, non intervention and small government. The current breed of “conservatives†are the antithesis of that ideology, thereby IMO, making them in fact “liberalsâ€. Liberal in spending, liberal in foreign meddling and liberal in the expansion of government. This is so because they are actually not even conservatives but are instead neo-conservatives. Read up on the history of the neo-conservative movement. The originators were all LIBERALS and IMO still are. Remember, all the wars, in the earlier part of the century were started by DEMOCRATS not Republicans.
You’re obviously just too plain ignorant to even understand the subtleties of any of these concepts. People like YOU are the real problem destroying this country.
May 27th, 2007 at 11:29 pmIt would appear you have a one-track mind. In other words, it is incomprehensible to you that one could have a whole array of reasons to be in Iraq, and continue to fight there. You seem to only have enough memory in your brain for one thing at a time, so you see “usâ€, as you put it, “change your motivation for the Iraqi war dailyâ€. The motivation for the Iraq war was an array of reasons, not one at a time. Just because only one of them may be discussed at a time doesn’t mean that the others still do not exist.
Or do you only have one reason for doing things in your life?
Comment by DreamCrusher
Aw, man you are funny!
It’s SELFISH for us to want to end the war.
But it was NOT SELFISH for use to invade Iraq in order to better OUR security and safety.
Go back to Karl and get some fresh new talking points buffoon, ’cause these contradictory and hypocritical ones just won’t fly anymore!
Idiot… LOL!
May 27th, 2007 at 11:35 pmJPV is kickin’ ass tonight!
May 27th, 2007 at 11:40 pmWHY DO REPUBLICANS HATE AMERICA?
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Sessions_GOP_will_be_ready_by_0527.html
May 27th, 2007 at 11:41 pm
JPV is kickin’ ass tonight!
Comment by Zooey
Thanks for the vote of confidence, but quite frankly it’s like stealing candy from a baby. LOL!
These neocons have painted themselves into a corner, with their ever changing contradictory rationals, and quite frankly “it don’t wash no more”.
May 27th, 2007 at 11:44 pmJPV,
Very true. Keep up the excellent work!
May 27th, 2007 at 11:47 pmBreath of fresh air in here now with Dream silent > lol.
May 27th, 2007 at 11:52 pmExcept here…
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/05/25/senate-intel-report-2/#comment-3824678
May 28th, 2007 at 12:25 amIf this story is true I absolutely agree with these guys. This is sort of repost but it still works for me.
May 28th, 2007 at 12:56 amI would be one of the 70 some percent that think we are going about this conflict all wrong. I think Bush has pissed down his leg every bit as much as Truman did in Korea, Kennedy did with the Bay of Pigs, Johnson and Nixon did in Viet Nam, Carter did with the Iranians and Clinton did in Serbia. If you’re going to pull a gun, then shoot to kill. If a decision is made to use military force then use it till the job is done and then leave. Have the courage of your convictions, kick the crap out of the opposition and let the cards fall were they may. The United States hasn’t finished the job since FDR approved of and Truman dropped the nuclear bomb on Japan.
When I came back to the world from Nam I protested the war. I was in the streets, not because I thought the idea was wrong but because I was sick of the pussy footing around.
Politics and indecision, on both sides, are killing our soldiers, and it does make me sick.
Speaking of true believers:
New museum says dinosaurs were on Noah’s Ark
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070526/us_nm/usa_museum_dc;_ylt=Aq3F2NkDKZfAl.HySSd20yRH2ocA
May 28th, 2007 at 1:15 amFaire > Ark was not big enough to hold dinosaurs, so most Christians claim that they drowned because Noah left them behind > lol.
May 28th, 2007 at 1:20 amWHY DOES GEORGE BUSH HATE AMERICA SO MUCH THAT HE WANT TO APPEASE THE TERRORISTS???
http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/05/28/iran.us.talks/index.html
Answer that one Neo-con fools.
LOL!!!
May 28th, 2007 at 5:14 amJPV,
Nice dodge. Still waiting for you to post some stats from a credible source.
As I said, there exists no poll of every soldier in Iraq, thus I cannot give you one. Apparently you believe it’s fine to make stuff up when the full truth is unavailable.
I read the whole article. Did you? The point that TP was trying to make seemed pretty consistent throughout the article. I seriously don’t see this as a case of cherry picking.
Yes, I did read the whole article, the article takes a couple soldiers’ opinions on things, and then Think Progress presents it as if it is the opinions of “US troops”. How can you defend such dishonesty?
You can NOT force “democracy on a people. It doesn’t work that way. Ultimately, thanks to the British and French intentionally dividing the region up into groups of warring tribes, for the sake of some cynical geopolitical strategy, I firmly believe that the country can only work under a dictator. I don’t like it but I do believe that it’s a fact.
No, it never worked in Japan, South Korea, Germany, etc, etc. It’s all a mirage. Who was forcing over 10 million Iraqis to the polls back in December 2005? Who was forcing millions of Afghanis to the polls? No one. They want democracy, and participated in democracy. No one was forcing them to do anything – we just set up an opportunity for them to have democracy, and they embraced it.
It’s good that you have aired out your bigot view that the Muslims cannot work with democracy. How progressive of you.
Iraq had the most advanced health care in the Arab world, until OUR sanctions destroyed that system, that is. And being that it was a SECULAR state, and not an Islamic one, women had far more freedom and opportunities than in other Arab countries. Our invasion has brought back the suppression of women.
Iraq had the most advanced health care system in the Arab world? I’m not sure how you gauge that, since I don’t think Saddam Hussein’s government was a good source to use for, well, anything. Our sanctions did not destroy their health care system, they destroyed their military, and Saddam punished his people for the sanctions.
Yes, Iraq was a secular state, and still is, although religious people have more influence now because clerics are now actually able to freely practice their religion, and people are freely able to go on pilgrimages. What will happen to the role of women in Iraqi society is still left to be seen, but at least they will not be raped and murdered by Saddam Hussein’s thugs anymore. If you have beef with Muslim culture, fine, but dictators have a much worse effect on the entire population.
Am I saying that Iraq didn’t have human rights problems? Of course not. But they also weren’t the worst offenders in that regard. One of our allies, Turkey, has a record of far greater human rights abuses than Iraq. Why don’t we invade them too?
Ah yes, I remember when Turkey gassed entire towns of people. I remember all the hundreds of thousands the Turks killed when the people rose up against the government. I remember when Turkey drained marshlands and displaced hundreds of thousands.
Oh wait, no I don’t, that’s what Saddam Hussein did, you god damn idiot.
Errrr… correct me if I’m wrong here, but didn’t the original rationale for invading Iraq, have something to do with WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION that the administration claimed would be used against us? Now how in the hell is that not also a selfish reason for the invasion?
WMDs were one of the reasons, yes, but the concern wasn’t primarily for the United States being hit with them, but for them being used against Iraq’s neighbors and “US interests”. There wasn’t a sole rationale for invading Iraq, there was an array of reasons why we went in there. Of course the US had some selfish reasons to invade, but the result of the invasion was also to benefit the Iraqi people.
The United States had a self-interest in making things better for the Iraqi people. When you make things better for others, you often get something back in return.
The ever shifting reason that buffoons like you use for the invasion, has now evolved into the idea of spreading democracy and freedom, only because the original rationale has proven to be either erroneous or fabricated.
Again, why could there only be ONE reason for the invasion? Does your brain only comprehend one idea at a time? There were MANY reasons for the invasion of Iraq, not just one.
Bush stated to the UN on September 12, 2002 that spreading democracy to Iraq was a stated goal of the United States, which was also a part of the Iraq Liberation Act passed in 1998 and signed by Clinton. Along with that reason, were the reasons about WMDs, about support of terrorism, and geopolitical reasons such as getting another ally in the Middle East which we could rely on for more oil so that we could stop being so reliant on Saudi Arabia, a country that is a huge problem for us.
There were many, many reasons for why we invaded Iraq, and the fact that you cannot comprehend this and can only comprehend one rationale at a time shows that you are in fact intellectually inferior or dishonest. You pick.
Got news for you buddy boy. I consider my self a traditional conservative. That being the case, I adhere to traditional conservative values such as fiscal responsibility, non intervention and small government. The current breed of “conservatives†are the antithesis of that ideology, thereby IMO, making them in fact “liberalsâ€. Liberal in spending, liberal in foreign meddling and liberal in the expansion of government. This is so because they are actually not even conservatives but are instead neo-conservatives. Read up on the history of the neo-conservative movement. The originators were all LIBERALS and IMO still are. Remember, all the wars, in the earlier part of the century were started by DEMOCRATS not Republicans.
I’m perfectly aware of that, which is why I pointed out that it is incredibly odd how non-liberal liberals are acting today, precisely because of what you have just said. Liberals today have completely lost their way, simply because they are obsessed with hating the Bush administration.
You’re obviously just too plain ignorant to even understand the subtleties of any of these concepts. People like YOU are the real problem destroying this country.
If you actually read what I said, you’d see that I not only understood this concept, but warned YOU of it. Liberals today are not acting like liberals should, that is the delicious irony of this whole Iraq war.
Liberals today are against spreading democracy, against spreading freedom, against intervening against dictatorship, against spreading better human rights to other nations. What happened to the good old days of the Kennedys?
That’s why you have left-wingers like Christopher Hitchens supporting the war, because he’s sticking to the real liberal ideals of spreading freedom and democracy. That’s why you had the liberal Kouchner in France supporting the removal of Saddam Hussein, which recently got him a spot in Sarkozy’s cabinet – and the Socialist Party kicked him out for it!!
This war has made fools out of all the partisans, while us non-partisan moderates sit and laugh and make fun of everyone.
May 28th, 2007 at 6:15 amWhen those soldiers come back, we’ll use them to round up the Republicans. It’s obvious we have to get these degenerates out of our country stat.
May 28th, 2007 at 6:42 amAs I said, there exists no poll of every soldier in Iraq, thus I cannot give you one. Apparently you believe it’s fine to make stuff up when the full truth is unavailable.
Comment by DreamCrusher
Yeah well I took the majority of the information from a Wikipedia article THAT YOU YOURSELF POSTED!
Your hypocrisy is simply MIND NUMBING!
Yes, I did read the whole article, the article takes a couple soldiers’ opinions on things, and then Think Progress presents it as if it is the opinions of “US troopsâ€. How can you defend such dishonesty?
Comment by DreamCrusher
Well, I agree that it’s hard to extrapolate this story to the totality of the military. TP linked to the original article, they weren’t hiding anything, so I guess that people can make their own minds up can’t they?
They want democracy, and participated in democracy. No one was forcing them to do anything – we just set up an opportunity for them to have democracy, and they embraced it.
It’s good that you have aired out your bigot view that the Muslims cannot work with democracy. How progressive of you.
Comment by DreamCrusher
Apparently a desire for Democracy doesn’t translate into stability now, does it?
And once again, I’m neither a Liberal nor a “Progressiveâ€. I consider myself a Conservative. Anyway, my intent is not to be bigoted but I’m merely stating historical fact. As I said, I wish it wasn’t so.
Iraq had the most advanced health care system in the Arab world? I’m not sure how you gauge that, since I don’t think Saddam Hussein’s government was a good source to use for, well, anything. Our sanctions did not destroy their health care system, they destroyed their military, and Saddam punished his people for the sanctions.
Comment by DreamCrusher
Try doing some research before you go making such misinformed claims…
http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/meast/9907/12/iraq.sanctions/
Ah yes, I remember when Turkey gassed entire towns of people. I remember all the hundreds of thousands the Turks killed when the people rose up against the government. I remember when Turkey drained marshlands and displaced hundreds of thousands.
Comment by DreamCrusher
Are you talking about the Turkish genocide of hundreds of thousands of Armenians?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_Genocide
How about some more recent abuses…
http://www.amnesty.org/ailib/intcam/turkey/turkfoc.htm#Torture
Of course the US had some selfish reasons to invade, but the result of the invasion was also to benefit the Iraqi people.
Comment by DreamCrusher
Then stop accusing others of being selfish when you disagree with their opinions.
The United States had a self-interest in making things better for the Iraqi people. When you make things better for others, you often get something back in return.
Comment by DreamCrusher
Very sophisticated analysis of foreign relations there. LOL!
I’m perfectly aware of that, which is why I pointed out that it is incredibly odd how non-liberal liberals are acting today, precisely because of what you have just said. Liberals today have completely lost their way, simply because they are obsessed with hating the Bush administration.
Comment by DreamCrusher
Yeah, well in my mind BOTH parties have lost their way.
Liberals today are against spreading democracy, against spreading freedom, against intervening against dictatorship, against spreading better human rights to other nations. What happened to the good old days of the Kennedys?
Comment by DreamCrusher
The same can be said of the Republican party. Republicans no longer behave like Republicans either. It’s almost as if they have changed polarity or something.
Liberals today are against spreading democracy, against spreading freedom, against intervening against dictatorship, against spreading better human rights to other nations. What happened to the good old days of the Kennedys?
Comment by DreamCrusher
I think the reason for this is that most people are rightly skeptical of the rationalizations for this war. It certainly seems to smack of imperialism more so then spreading democracy. There are numerous countries in the world, were human rights abuses continue, that could use some intervention. Why only this one then?
May 28th, 2007 at 7:05 amDream Crusher….I hate to crush your fantasies, but you seem to buy into the neocon bullshit without any questions:
1. We are not in Iraq to bring democracy (not even bushit is laying out that line of crap any longer). WE are there on behalf of the neocon imperialists who want to TAKE the oil and privatize their industry.
2. WE are no doing any “good” for the Iraqui people, as we have destroyed their country, precipitated a civil war, caused terrorists to move in, and killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqui men, women and children (CIVILIANS).
3. AS a Vietnam veteran, all I can tell you is that you do not win” hearts and minds” by killing civilians. It just makes more enemies or “terrorists” as you would call them. (Actually, it is the American occupiers who are the real terrorists).
4. My grandchildren will be paying for the deficit you and other bushies and neocons are leaving for them because you refuse to tax to pay for this WAR which is NEVER going to be “won”, even if some madman insists on keeping the troops there for the next forty years (or until the last drop of Iraqui oil is extracted). Do you think this is just?
I could go on, but I really don’t think that any facts or logic will sway you from your craziness.
May 28th, 2007 at 8:31 amThere never was any neocon-inspired desire to “win” in Iraq, only take oil. If Bush and neocons wanted victory in Iraq would they have really put Rumsfeld, Perle, and Bremer in charge while taking advice from Libby and Rove? The “war on terror” was was used to divide America and will always be viewed by the Bush Administration as a re-election campaign.
May 28th, 2007 at 8:45 amThe pivotal moment came, he says, this past February when soldiers killed a man setting a roadside bomb. When they searched the bomber’s body, they found identification showing him to be a sergeant in the Iraqi Army.
May 28th, 2007 at 8:50 amThe classic problem of a Guerilla War….How do you defeat an Invisible Enemy? (Hint: NOT by rounding up citizens en masse and humiliating them in Abu Ghraib).
The classic solution?
May 28th, 2007 at 8:59 am
Speaking of true believers:
New museum says dinosaurs were on Noah’s Ark
Comment by Briseadh na Faire
**snort**
That’s just too sad…..and frickin’ ignorant.
May 28th, 2007 at 9:57 amWelcome to the thinking half of the nation Sergeant Moore. Now just say those words you owe us, “I was wrong and I should not be allowed to vote again. Clearly I am easily duped”
May 28th, 2007 at 10:38 am“Speaking out is great, what do they have to lose?”
Their lives. Please don’t forget Pat Tillman. I don’t think it was a coincidence that Pat Tillman died by “friendly fire” shortly after he and his family started speaking out against the “war”.
May 28th, 2007 at 11:43 am“I could post up news articles of soldiers saying the opposite, but I’ll let Think Progress brainwash their readers with their cherry-picked truth.”
Our truth is “cherry picking”, but your truth would be the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Right….
I am getting really sick and tired of people saying that we can’t leave because if we do things will get worse. I really don’t see how things could get any worse than they are right now. I actually think that things will get better once we leave. The first thing the Iraqi’s will do is to throw out all foreign fighters (including al Quaena) They don’t like foreigners in their country any more than they like us. Then after they have cleared the foreigners out of their country, they will be forced to come to some agreement as to how to run the country (or divide it into regional countries). As long as we are there to prop up the corrupt regime that is the Iraqi government, things will never change. The Iraqi’s will continue to stand behind the Americans allowing them to do the fighting for them.
One last thought. When is the last time you heard anything about how many Iraqi soldiers there are to fight their own “war”? There should be a hundred thousand or more by now if you believe what the Bush Crime Family has been telling us (at least until they stopped telling us anything at all).
May 28th, 2007 at 11:50 amDream Crusher;
They are already leaving to do the dirty work we helped and gave them the opportunity to learn. Thanks to the Neo-Cons and their blind supportors like you, who hang onto their misguided beliefs without question, we do have a serious problem brewing. Ironically the Oil and control of the Mid-East the Neo-Cons sought will likely bring down the economy and culture of the US. The likely out come of the Iraq adventure is reduced oil supplies for the US and then a failing of the foundations of this country already under attack by the Administation.
Fighting them there
so we can fight them everywhere:
The Iraq war, which for years has drawn militants from around the world, is beginning to export fighters and the tactics they have honed in the insurgency to neighboring countries and beyond, according to American, European and Middle Eastern government officials and interviews with militant leaders in Lebanon, Jordan and London.
Some of the fighters appear to be leaving as part of the waves of Iraqi refugees crossing borders that government officials acknowledge they struggle to control. But others are dispatched from Iraq for specific missions. […]
Estimating the number of fighters leaving Iraq is at least as difficult as it has been to count foreign militants joining the insurgency. But early signs of an exodus are clear, and officials in the United States and the Middle East say the potential for veterans of the insurgency to spread far beyond Iraq is significant.
May 28th, 2007 at 12:07 pmSoldiers whose lives are at risk 24/7 and their ever-changing mission is not clear to them; their friend in daylight is their enemy tonight; the president is obviously a moron who keep extending their tours….
May 28th, 2007 at 1:02 pmThis is an extremely sad and sorry state of affairs thanks to the AWOL pilot, Commander Codpiece, our Chimp-in-chief.
I agree with this platoon leader. Our platoon has the same makeup. In fact, there are talks in quite a few platoons about us refusing the illegal orders. Call it mutiny or call it what you want. The US Army is tired of dying while being lied to.
May 28th, 2007 at 2:14 pmu.s. forces are havng to do more multi-tasking than they would have expected. they have to be traffic cops, mediators, public relations specialists, drill seargents, ordinance / bomb detectors experts, emergency first responders, first aid technicians, chaplain, counselor, and other areas when all some of them ever asked to be was “soldier.”
May 28th, 2007 at 2:53 pmangryvietnamvet,
1. We are not in Iraq to bring democracy (not even bushit is laying out that line of crap any longer). WE are there on behalf of the neocon imperialists who want to TAKE the oil and privatize their industry.
Yet we haven’t “taken” any oil from Iraq. We have bought lots of oil from Iraq, like we did before the war. Only now, the oil goes to the democratically elected government of Iraq, and not Saddam Hussein. Whether or not the US actually went to Iraq to bring democracy, democracy is what they got.
What’s the difference between South Korea and North Korea? Well, one is democratic and one is not. You see anything else that goes hand in hand with that? Which one of those countries does the USA sell goods to? Which of those countries do American companies make most money in? You starting to see the bigger picture now?
2. WE are no doing any “good†for the Iraqui people, as we have destroyed their country, precipitated a civil war, caused terrorists to move in, and killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqui men, women and children (CIVILIANS).
That’s not what Iraqis themselves think, but of course you think your opinions matter more than theirs, in typical anti-war egomaniac fashion. Iraq has been destroyed ever since the Iran-Iraq war, a civil war (if you want to call it that) would have broken out in Iraq regardless when Saddam was taken out of power, whether we were involved or not, and we have most certainly not killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqis. I doubt your claim of being a vet with you saying such things.
3. AS a Vietnam veteran, all I can tell you is that you do not win†hearts and minds†by killing civilians. It just makes more enemies or “terrorists†as you would call them. (Actually, it is the American occupiers who are the real terrorists).
Yeah, you’re a Vietnam vet, right. Snort. Most of the civilians are being killed by the terrorists and the insurgents, not by American military, but you don’t care about the truth, you care about smearing the troops you would otherwise pretend to support.
Yet another person who proves the lie that liberals support the troops. Empty talk is what it is.
4. My grandchildren will be paying for the deficit you and other bushies and neocons are leaving for them because you refuse to tax to pay for this WAR which is NEVER going to be “wonâ€, even if some madman insists on keeping the troops there for the next forty years (or until the last drop of Iraqui oil is extracted). Do you think this is just?
After drawing down the tax levels, the government has actually taken in more tax revenue, because lower taxes spur more economic growth, and more people are inclined to pay their fair share of the taxes.
You’re right that the budget is a mess, but that was the case before the war, and that would be the case without the war.
I could go on, but I really don’t think that any facts or logic will sway you from your craziness.
Yes, logic such as “our troops are terrorists” is pretty solid. LOL!
I don’t believe for a second that you’re a Vietnam vet, because a Vietnam vet would not slander the troops like you do.
May 28th, 2007 at 5:16 pmBush co never gave a damn for the iraqi people. That is a fact. He said so himself – cause he wanted to be a “war” president and then cram all his right-wing b.s. down the throat of the vast majorify of the American people. Cheney wanted to shutdown the spigot in Iraw so that the price will be driven up all the while his former company raking in billions in no-bid contracts. The could care less about the iraqis or our onw people for that matter. It is obvious to all but whores like the paid trolls that visti this site. Most iraqis will tell you – things were bad under Saddam – but it is far worst now.
Besides Saddam was a bastard -but he was allright by us as along as he was our bastard.
Depending on whose numbers you believe Bush said “something like 30K innocent” iraqis killed – others put the number at over 600K. You are a fool if you think our daisycutters and white phosphouorous and stressed out over-extended soldiers have not killed in the thousands. The cost of the war is approaching TRILLIONS and it will have to be paid back by future generations at great sacrifice. Giving tax cuts to the rich is not going to do squat about the debt – that is just right wing greedy talk justifying tax cuts in a time of war – something never done through human history.
If you are being bombed and your house is being raided in the middle of the night you do not look to see whether it is a U.S soldier or not before deciding to be terrorized. That is an idiots logic.
May 28th, 2007 at 8:34 pmWhy is it that when U.S. withdrawal from Iraq is mentioned–especially by those who think even greater chaos will follow–it’s always in the context of a worlview where the U.S. and the forces in Iraq, however described, are the only actors?–It seems to reflect the notion of the U.S. as the lone cowboy on the world stage, which this administration has so successfully hypnotized people into accepting. But “going it alone” has never been an optimal survival strategy in the long run. It’s time to give the lie to the notion that military action can be effective in bringing us any long-term security, and in fact only operates against that outcome. It’s time this country starts to see ourselves as members of a world community and learns how to ask for help from other countries without feeling as if our dignity is somehow compromised by doing so.
May 28th, 2007 at 8:50 pmThere’s nothing wrong with asking other countries to help us get out of Iraq by providing some measure of security for Iraq while we do so, perhaps under the aegis of the U.N., and after involving Iraq’s neighbors in discussions to the point where they are buying into whatever plan emerges. And we have to commit ourselves to providing resources to help rebuild what we have destroyed. These steps will also to some extent defuse the growing power of jihadist groups currently using our activities in Iraq to swell their own ranks. These are the things we need to do to responsibly disengage from Iraq.
US troops are in iraq to kill people and to be killed.
alquaeda are the secrec services
hamas is controled by israel
fatah is also controled by israel
all parties in america are controle by thezionists international bankers, that even whan to kll the jews just like every body else.
Theier aim is to create the worst aberration possibe.
wake up
This is a mind control program just like, comunism vs fascism. The international bankers own US Russia, Israel, Iran, China, they just want the people to kill each other
The international bankers control the world for 3000 years, we are just cadle for them.
liberty and peace is the hegelian dialect
they use the words peace to kll people.
we have to take conscious of the reality, and dont aloe them to kll the people we love and the people we would love.
June 8th, 2007 at 10:45 amsince they own the media, the revolution will not be televised, we have to do it by owerselves.
June 8th, 2007 at 10:48 am