“The point is, we must learn from mistakes made in the past so that we do not repeat them in the future. You know…Vietnam and all that.”

Well why didn’t you say that in the first place? That makes perfect sense and yes I happen to agree with it.

“Don’t feed me this “don’t live in the past” bullshit. I didn’t suggest living in the past, idiot.”

The hell you didn’t! Read #163 again you twit.

“They will attempt to attack it, drawings or no drawings.”

Yeah but why help them at all? That is the point you and others still don’t get.

That’s a CYA comment stated by someone who almost had their butt kicked by the State Dept.! LOL!

“The fact that the U.S. is successfully building and opening an embassy in Iraq, no matter what the size and despite the conditions in Iraq, should be considered good news in the eyes of the administration.”

I am sure it is. That is not the point here though. The concern is that there is NO good reason to post even conceptual drawings about the U.S. Embassy in Iraq on a web page considering the on going security problems. I will go one better, even if the security situation in Iraq WAS under control, in my opinion, I STILL wouldn’t post the plans. There is most definately relevant information about the design that shouldn’t be seen by everyone. The U.S. public doesn’t even need to see it. This is just common sense so as not to expose the occupants to a potential attack. Why do we need to see a layout of the site? You don’t see site plan layouts of our other embassies that are located in other countries. Why?

Comment by Tracy — June 2, 2007 @ 12:59 pm

Don’t feed me this “don’t live in the past” bullshit. I didn’t suggest living in the past, idiot.

The point is, we must learn from mistakes made in the past so that we do not repeat them in the future. You know…Vietnam and all that. Either you are one perfect bastard and never made a mistake in your life, or either you did yet ignored them and continue to make mistakes to this day.

Let me say it this way: I’m suggesting that it was a mistake to build an embassy that has a physical size larger than the Vatican which will be such an easy target for the enemy.

Comment by Tracy — June 2, 2007 @ 1:04 pm

Here’s the unfortunate truth: IF a member of the enemy can get through our security forces and inflict damage on the embassy, it probably isn’t going to matter to them whether they blow up a cafeteria or George Bush’s private quarters. Just successfully launching an attack on the embassy will be viewed a success by the enemy. They will attempt to attack it, drawings or no drawings.

As for helping out the enemy, George Bush and other members of his administration should have shut their mouths when they said we’d leave Iraq if the Iraqi government asked us to. Number one, Bush had no damn plan to leave Iraq, and number two, announcing to the enemy that we will leave gives them something to look forward to. But damn the Democrats and the war opponents if any of THEM suggest that we leave.

Comment by Tracy — June 2, 2007 @ 1:11 pm

The fact that the U.S. is successfully building and opening an embassy in Iraq, no matter what the size and despite the conditions in Iraq, should be considered good news in the eyes of the administration. What a perfect way for Bush to show the terrorists who the boss is. But I guess that’s not the case.

As for the security issue, these are “conjectural and conceptual in nature” per the company who produced them; you must have overlooked my post on this that quoted a spokesman for the company who designed them.

The fact that the U.S. government is scared shitless over security issues with the embassy should be a sign that things aren’t so swell in Iraq and aren’t improving on a daily basis. We have heard for years now that “we have turned a corner” and “progress is being made” and “the insurgency is in its last throes” and “I see improvement,” yet other than Saddam’s capture & execution, a couple of elections, and the installation of a new government, things are all to hell in Iraq.

As for the press and the good news stories, I’ll let Lara speak for herself (you can find this on crooksandliars.com):

Our own editors back in New York are asking us the same things. They read the same comments. You know, are there positive stories? Can’t you find them? You don’t think that I haven’t been to the U.S. military and the State Department and the embassy and asked them over and over again, let’s see the good stories, show us some of the good things that are going on? Oh, sorry, we can’t take to you that school project, because if you put that on TV, they’re going to be attacked about, the teachers are going to be killed, the children might be victims of attack.

Oh, sorry, we can’t show this reconstruction project because then that’s going to expose it to sabotage. And the last time we had journalists down here, the plant was attacked.

Of all the media outlets that should be flooding us with the good news stories, Fox News should be leading the charge. The front page of their web site should have at least one good news story a week. Along with the Bush administration, people on Fox have been bitching and whining that the press isn’t reporting the good stuff. OK, Fox, where are they? I once saw an interview on CNN of a soldier who was involved in getting Baby Noor to the U.S. for a life changing operation. He was talking about the positive aspects of this event, and said there were “thousands” of good stories in Iraq just like it.

“Considering the plan had no site information….or seem to have much information about the actual floor plans, no. ”

This is too much! The site has multiple tower cranes on it right now. It’s not like they couldn’t know where the site is!

“Now tell me specifically how this information can be used for the purposes of evil.”

Knowing that layout of the buildings on the site could be used to plan an attack…don’t you think? Again, you are out there….and I mean WAY out there.

“In my experience with better firms every thing was high quality because the technology caters to it.”

Which firms would those be? Please provide a link or two to these master plans that are so much better that those color ones of the U.S. Embassy.

“My high school students could create that conceptual master plan in two days”

Yeah right! You are full of crap. If so please post something that one of your highschool students did that comes close.

“They are good viz models.”

The rendering aren’t very realistic.

“It’s not Thom Mayne’s people on Triforma…”

Microstation? Please! All of our modeling is done in Form Z and rendering in 3D Studio Max. I have worked with the add-on package of Triforma to Microstation and it’s lame comparatively speaking to Form Z.

“But a conceptual master plan? They could get more info just by driving to the site…”

I agree, but does it or could it help them in any way? That’s the point here.

“I don’t know. Ask the boogeyman in your closet tonight…”

You don’t know? I see why you would never be put in charge of the security of a building.

“I don’t see floor plans.”

Why would they need to see floor plan? A layout of the complex is far more important to them than a floor plan layout of a particular building.

“I maintain that you are being paranoid about this.”

I maintain you know nothing about military tatics.

“Then why not be upset about THAT?”

Because, unlike you and many others here, I like to stay on topic. This thread had to do with why the State Dept. took down the master plans of the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad for security concerns. Again I still don’t see why you think it’s OK.

“You called me a conspiracy theorist for suggesting it.”

Because you had no real evidence to back it up other than the fact that the prices were going down before the election and back up after, which BTW they are only recently going up quickly.

“The graph on the average gas prices website shows otherwise. Go look at it again.”

Which graph are are you looking at?

“You speed freak!”

If you are that slow….oh well.

“Well, posting these photos obviously assists the enemy, per Tracy. I believe that rises to the level of treason”

I don’t think the did it with the INTENT of helping al Qaeda. I just with they would have exercised some discretion.

“What is the FUNDAMENTAL equation used to solve static mechanics problems?”

There isn’t just one.

What is the FUNDAMENTAL equation used to solve dynamic mechanics problems?

There isn’t just one.

Yes I took three algebra based statics classes in college. A long time ago. Yes I know what a moment frame is. Yes I know that you can use X-bracing or K-bracing to get your diaphram action to resist lateral loads like wind. Yes we did shear diagrams and calculated how much moment a load puts on a connection. Yes we had to calculate sizes of steel columns, based on their section modulus. Yes I know what drilled piers and spread footing are. To answer your question, yes I am an architect, and we contract out our structural design work to structral engineers as well as HVAC and plumbing work to out MEP engineers.

“For a project like this, which is most likely confidential in nature, the posting of images or information about it would only happen with the written consent of the client”

That’s a great question! Anyone out there know if the State Dept. gave permission to the firm to post pictures of such a security sensitive project?

“Then you agree with the State Dept’s refusal to let the press report the good news stories, thinking that the enemy will use the info to their advantage”

If you are thinking that this is one of those “good news” story that included showing the world that layout of the embassy then see below my next comment. Why do we need to see the layout and pictures of this embassy when all it does is help our enemies?

“This is what they told CBS News reporter Lara Logan.”

She actually asked that question? Wow, another moron reporter! Next thing you know she will probably be asking why she can’t show how the U.S. military is upgrading that armor on the humvees!

“Then you admit that Lieberman’s and McCain’s and Graham’s recent strolls down the streets of Baghdad to show us how great things are are pure bullshit. ”

Absolutely! however do you thinks it helps or hinders our enemies to show our leaders dumping on our troops and the situation?

“Tracy, are you worrying your pretty little head over security breaches of our brand new embassy?”

I never said that I was worried about a security breech. I just rightly thought that it did absolutely no good to let our enemies see a layout of our new embassy in Baghdad. Don’t you agree? If not, why?

I got a better idea for you….how about focusing on today. Doesn’t do you a damn bit of good to live in the past.

Comment by Tracy — June 1, 2007 @ 1:13 am

Oh really?

“The actual information that was up there was purely conjectural and conceptual in nature,” said Louis Berger spokesman Jeffrey Willis. “Google Earth could give you a better snapshot of what the site looks like on the ground.”

But I suppose you, Tracy, know a hell of a lot more than the company who produced the drawings.

(You can find the above quote at cnn.com)

Dam right Tracy. Right next to the Bowling Alley and between the Multiplex, the Adventure Theme Park and the Food Court. Right next to the pantry where they stock the caviar.

Enjoy.

Considering the plan had no site information, was not very detailed, gave no information to anything logistical such as street information, utilities, or seem to have much information about the actual floor plans, no.

Now tell me specifically how this information can be used for the purposes of evil.

How much will it deviate? I don’t work for the firm or know the clients, so it’s hard to speculate other than you knowing that clients are always changing things…

Those color master plans aren’t “conceptual” in the least. Conceptual is a hand sketch or an abstract diagramatical plan.

Maybe in your firm. In my experience with better firms every thing was high quality because the technology caters to it. My high school students could create that conceptual master plan in two days.

Those renderings weren’t even close to being photo quality!

Apparently they are to lay people who call them such. They are good viz models. It’s not Thom Mayne’s people on Triforma – but I’ve met Thom Mayne and he wouldn’t whore himself out to a project like this.

And you know little about military tatics and planning. You don’t think that al Qaeda could use those master plans to plot ways to attack it?

THOSE plans? No. If they had posted CDs, or even DD floor plans, sure, I’d agree with you. But a conceptual master plan? They could get more info just by driving to the site…

Here is question: Do you think that al Qaeda or the insurgents in Iraq have used Google Earth to plan any of their attacks?

I don’t know. Ask the boogeyman in your closet tonight…

How could you not side with the State Dept. on getting those plans removed from Berger Devine Yaeger’s web site? The 3D stuff maybe but not the plans.

I don’t see floor plans. If there were floor plans that are DD level, then that was stupid. But these images above? I maintain that you are being paranoid about this.

What I don’t get is why you’re foaming at the mouth over a few sketches and ignoring the real threats – to Americans on American soil – not just a few elties living next to the oil (hint:the border issues…).

That has nothing to do with my integrity. I too think that the complex is far too expensive and expansive. I absolutely understand how the Iraqi people will look at this complex just like something Saddam would build. I agree it’s overkill.

Then why not be upset about THAT? About them getting a pool complex while your neighbors in New Orleans are still living in pools – stagnant ones at that? I don’t understand your priorties.

I never said it wasn’t possible.

You called me a conspiracy theorist for suggesting it. That’s denial. But you’re owning up now, as much as you ever will, so I’ll let it go if you will.

I said it wasn’t true base on the fact the gas prices are on the rise in the same pattern they have been doing for years now. BTW everytime one of those idiots like Waxman launches an investigation into “price gouging” by the oil companies it exonerates them.
Comment by Tracy — June 1, 2007 @ 1:13 am

The graph on the average gas prices website shows otherwise. Go look at it again.