ThinkFast: June 7, 2007
ThinkFast: June 7, 2007
“Vice President Cheney told Justice Department officials that he disagreed with their objections to a secret surveillance program during a high-level White House meeting in March 2004,” former Justice official James Comey revealed yesterday, indicating that “Cheney and his aides were more closely involved than previously known in a fierce internal battle over the legality of the warrantless surveillance program.”
“Sen. Ted Stevens, the longest-serving Republican in the Senate, disclosed in an interview that the FBI asked him to preserve records as part of a widening investigation into Alaskan political corruption that has touched his son and ensnared one of his closest political confidants and financial backers.”
“Los Angeles residents were urged on Wednesday to take shorter showers, reduce lawn sprinklers and stop throwing trash in toilets in a bid to cut water usage by 10 percent” in the driest year “since rainfall records began 130 years ago.”
“Federal prosecutors are investigating the Kuwaiti company building the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad, probing allegations that foreign employees were brought to work on the massive project against their will and prevented from leaving the country.” Former employees say they were told “they were being sent to Dubai, only to wind up in Iraq instead.”
“In what many view as a near deal-killer” to the immigration reform bill, the Senate voted last last night to pass a controversial amendment to sunset guest-worker provisions in the measure. The deal is reportedly “on life support heading into today’s expected vote to close off debate.”
Kenneth Krieg, the Pentagon’s acquisition chief, resigned Wednesday, “the latest in a recent string of high-level departures from the department.”
“Six human rights groups on Wednesday released a list of 39 people they believe have been secretly imprisoned by the United States and whose whereabouts are unknown, calling on the Bush administration to abandon such detentions.”
“Justice Department investigators looking into former Rep. Jim Kolbe’s (R-AZ) relationships with House pages found no wrongdoing and have closed their inquiry, Mr. Kolbe says.”
Global warming is “threatening cultural landmarks from Canada to Antarctica, the World Monuments Fund said Wednesday.” New Orleans’ historic neighborhoods, “the Church of the Holy Nativity under Palestinian control in Bethlehem, cultural heritage sites in Iraq and Machu Picchu Historic Sanctuary in Peru are among the top 100 most endangered sites.
And finally: Pols kicking Paris while she’s down. While arguing with a witness about soldier protection at a House Armed Services Committee hearing yesterday, Rep. Neil Abercrombie (D-HI), buoyed his point with a harsh reference to the recently jailed celebrity heiress. “It is not an issue of contending with networks, who when they finish their discussion of the active protection system or the body armor, went on to their ads for erectile dysfunction or a murder or whether or not some celebrity slut was going to jail.”
What did we miss? Let us know in the comments section.
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Two words:
Crest Whitestrips
:P
June 7th, 2007 at 9:12 amSen. Ted Stevens, the longest-serving Republican in the Senate, disclosed in an interview that the FBI asked him to preserve records as part of a widening investigation into Alaskan political corruption that has touched his son and ensnared one of his closest political confidants and financial backers.
Bye, Ted.
For shame, rasing your son to be as corrupt as yourself.
June 7th, 2007 at 9:15 amLos Angeles residents were urged on Wednesday to take shorter showers, reduce lawn sprinklers and stop throwing trash in toilets in a bid to cut water usage by 10 percent†in the driest year “since rainfall records began 130 years ago.
Yay! Conservation!
Um, who throws trash in their toilet? Anyone….?
Weird…
June 7th, 2007 at 9:17 amSix human rights groups on Wednesday released a list of 39 people they believe have been secretly imprisoned by the United States and whose whereabouts are unknown, calling on the Bush administration to abandon such detentions.
Now we’re “disappearing” people.
Disgusting.
June 7th, 2007 at 9:20 amcaption : Close-Up of Evil
June 7th, 2007 at 9:20 amHey! TP commenters!!
WAKE UP!!
There’s an echo in here….
June 7th, 2007 at 9:21 amFrom the article:
Well, that much is true. The entire “war on terror” is mythological.
Oh yes, like the guys who were going to blow up the Sears building, but had no explosives, weapons, or ties to terrorist groups. Or maybe the guys who were going to blow up the Holland tunnel…again, without explosives or weapons. Or maybe the folks who were going to brew up TATP in an airplane restroom to blow up the airplane…never mind that this scheme is flatly impossible. Or perhaps the people who were going to storm Fort Dix in a pizza delivery car. Or maybe the guys who were going to blow up JFK Airport by throwing a match at a jet fuel line…
There’s more, but I think you get the point. We’re not falling for it anymore, Paul. It’s just a shadow play, and the performance is beginning to get tiresome.
June 7th, 2007 at 9:21 amJustice Department investigators looking into former Rep. Jim Kolbe’s (R-AZ) relationships with House pages found no wrongdoing and have closed their inquiry, Mr. Kolbe says.
I’d wait for confirmation from the DoJ, but it is Gonzo’s DoJ, so nevermind.
June 7th, 2007 at 9:23 amSorry, Kay. :D
June 7th, 2007 at 9:23 amImpeachment does not mean that a high level elected or appointed official has to be accused or indicted for a felony. The impeachment process will begin the process of asking the questions. It could be all kinds of problems, such as politicizing the DoJ, or maladministration of the DoJ, or being so out of touch that the administrator does not know why a group of high level appointees were thrown out. Answers to these questions could certainly throw light on the current and past actions of this WH administration.
“Impeachment is off the table” means that Pelosi (impeachment begins in the House) is still living in fear instilled by the 12 years prior to 06. Impeachment may not be adopted, but we need the process to be acknowledged. Once the egregious lawbreaking is shown as clearly as possible, given the current secrecy, even the rethugs may have second thoughts of support.
June 7th, 2007 at 9:24 amCyclone Gonu is now taking lives and causing damage of all places the Mideast.
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=3247758&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312
This will reduce the amount of available oil in the world and trigger a price hike. I kid you not this one is pretty big too and one news person was quoted as saying, “In all my years I have never seen anything like this!”
June 7th, 2007 at 9:24 amHey! TP commenters!!
WAKE UP!!
There’s an echo in here….
Comment by Zooey
HEY! Not so loud! When do you sleep anyway? People probably think you live on BOTH coasts. Is there two of you?
June 7th, 2007 at 9:28 amOn the California story: we need a big project to build desalinization plants on the California coast, so they can get the water they need without dessicating the mountain states to their east. It would be good for California cities, good for California farmers, good for the other states, good for the country, good for the environment, and good for Mexico.
Fighting over water – it’s the 21st century, and we’re the richest country in the world!
June 7th, 2007 at 9:29 amTwo words:
Crest Whitestrips
Comment by Zooey — June 7, 2007 @ 9:12 am
Hilarious… But I don’t think they get out stains from human blood :D
By the way, TP, that photo hurt my eyes. Thanks.
June 7th, 2007 at 9:29 amGlobal warming is “threatening cultural landmarks from Canada to Antarctica
Well, at least it’s good to know that when all the destruction wrought by this sudden, violent climate change is finally complete (not to mention the worldwide famines and plagues), the climate might be better for humanity…
…isn’t that right, Mr. Griffin?
June 7th, 2007 at 9:29 amWhat kind of coffee do you drink in the morning, Zooey? You may want to cut back on the extra shots.
June 7th, 2007 at 9:32 amThe landmark U.S. law to fight water pollution will now apply only to bodies of water large enough for boats to use, and their adjacent wetlands, and will not automatically protect streams, the U.S. government said on Tuesday.
And thats not just any boat, but rather only ones big enough for Commerce.
June 7th, 2007 at 9:32 amLink to Article
Um, who throws trash in their toilet? Anyone….?
Comment by Zooey — June 7, 2007 @ 9:17 am
I never cease to be surprised by the stupid things humans do… Who would look at their toilet and think “Hmmm… I bet I could fit an empty milk jug down there…”? Baffling…
June 7th, 2007 at 9:32 am“Los Angeles residents were urged on Wednesday to take shorter showers, reduce lawn sprinklers and stop throwing trash in toilets in a bid to cut water usage by 10 percent†in the driest year “since rainfall records began 130 years ago.â€
No wonder the (big R) Governator of California is ignoring GW Bush policies and leading his own ones. NO one with a minimum CI (Gosh, I’m speaking of Arnie too here!) can deny it.
“Federal prosecutors are investigating the Kuwaiti company building the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad, probing allegations that foreign employees were brought to work on the massive project against their will and prevented from leaving the country.†Former employees say they were told “they were being sent to Dubai, only to wind up in Iraq instead.â€
To the greater glory of Pharaoh Chimpyamon.
P.S.: Hi Mistress Z :)
June 7th, 2007 at 9:32 am“Cheney and his aides were more closely involved than previously known in a fierce internal battle over the legality of the warrantless surveillance program.â€
No Shit! Go figure, Cheney influencing justice and politicizing a non-political process.
Impeach the Dick.
Now!
June 7th, 2007 at 9:33 amCaption Contest:
Did I get all the Kitten out of my teeth?
June 7th, 2007 at 9:33 amHEY! Not so loud! When do you sleep anyway? People probably think you live on BOTH coasts. Is there two of you?
Comment by shane
Oh man, planet earth would be so happy if there were two of me!
*gag*
This girl bounces out of bed at 6 a.m., rain or shine, and now I’m headed out to walk the hills of the university.
Back in a bit!
June 7th, 2007 at 9:34 am(fair warning!)
You know, I could have gone all day without seeing that picture, but seeing that the first thing in the morning…?
TP is cruel
June 7th, 2007 at 9:35 amI am so tired of hearing, seeing about Pairtits.
June 7th, 2007 at 9:35 amWe’re not falling for it anymore, Paul. It’s just a shadow play, and the performance is beginning to get tiresome.
Comment by TripMaster Monkey — June 7, 2007 @ 9:21 am
Plus it contradicts their entire fabrications for supporting the Occupation of Iraq. If we’re fighting them over there so we don’t fight them over here, then why, if we’re fighting them iover there, are we also “fighting” them over here?
June 7th, 2007 at 9:36 amBy the way, TP, that photo hurt my eyes. Thanks.
Comment by unbelievable
Damn right! I’m glad I hadn’t eaten, I’d have tossed it!
Toooodles! :P
June 7th, 2007 at 9:36 amFor shame, rasing your son to be as corrupt as yourself.
Comment by Zooey — June 7, 2007 @ 9:15 am
Zooey, there is a reason for the expression, “apples don’t fall far from the tree.”
June 7th, 2007 at 9:37 amZooey, there is a reason for the expression, “apples don’t fall far from the tree.â€
Comment by Marie — June 7, 2007 @ 9:37 am
Or the shorter version, attributed to Newton: “Ouch, da#ned apple…”
June 7th, 2007 at 9:42 amCaption contest:
June 7th, 2007 at 9:42 am
Caption Contest:
Did I get all the Kitten out of my teeth?
Comment by squegeebooo
This is hillarious, too bad it’s probably true.
June 7th, 2007 at 9:44 amComment by TripMaster Monkey
The feasability or impossibility for criminals to actually commit their acts is irrelevant. Criminal intent is the key. For example, just because they’re stupid enough to believe they could enter Fort Dix without encountering a major security detail, it doesn’t preclude them from being tried on their attempted crimes. Evidence of intent is all that’s needed for them to be put away, thankfully. A conviction on attempted murder can carry penalties equal to an actual murder conviction.
You may be right about the Sears debacle, but the arrests in the JFK/Fort Dix plots appear to be entirely justfied. We shouldn’t have to wait for them to be caught in the act before taking them down.
June 7th, 2007 at 9:45 amUm, who throws trash in their toilet? Anyone….?
Comment by Zooey
Happens all the time.. paper towels, feminine napkins, condoms, gum wrappers, cigarette butts, Q-tips, dental floss, test strips, cottonballs, washclothes.
Such is what I learned doing plumbing work.
June 7th, 2007 at 9:45 amAlso in the Post article…
Cheney told Gonzo to block the promotion of a DoJ lawyer who had disagreed with him.
It tell ya, Cheney makes Nixon look like Jesus.
June 7th, 2007 at 9:46 amOn the California story: we need a big project to build desalinization plants on the California coast, so they can get the water they need without dessicating the mountain states to their east. It would be good for California cities, good for California farmers, good for the other states, good for the country, good for the environment, and good for Mexico.
Fighting over water – it’s the 21st century, and we’re the richest country in the world!
Comment by joe — June 7, 2007 @ 9:29 am
Desalinization plants are above sea level so since the gravity of mountains is off the table how will California pump all of those millions of gallons of water into and out of the desalinization plant? The magical ingredient for that is electrical power to operate those pumps. Don’t forget that all of that desalinization equipment needs to be built too. At this point you can draw all the logical conclusions you want. There was a dust bowl before and there will be one again.
June 7th, 2007 at 9:48 amI did find a bigger version of the picture above:
http://people.itu.int/~lapietra/diving/RedSea1998/images/shark.jpg
June 7th, 2007 at 9:48 amSecret renditions are a violation of international law.
But as long as Impeachment is off the table, there is no holding Bush accountable for violating the law. As soon as Pelosi pronounced Impeachment was off the table, Bush knew he would get a free pass on whatever He wanted to do. Thank you Speaker Pelosi, for nothing.
June 7th, 2007 at 9:48 amgood one Evil Spaniard!
June 7th, 2007 at 9:50 amthanks
found another bigger one :
http://www.freakingnews.com/pictures/13500/War–13620.jpg
June 7th, 2007 at 9:52 amHey! TP commenters!!
WAKE UP!!
There’s an echo in here….
Comment by Zooey — June 7, 2007 @ 9:21 am
what are YOU doing up so early???!
getting a head start today? …
oh, and, do those things really work? worth the hassle?
June 7th, 2007 at 9:53 am…
NP, hayzeus, I ever been an admirer of great, soulless predators.
June 7th, 2007 at 9:53 amsorry it didn’t go through
June 7th, 2007 at 9:55 amyegads!! That picture does not go well with breakfast!!
June 7th, 2007 at 9:55 amtry this :
http://theheretik.typepad.com/the_heretik/images/vader_fight_bw_cheney.jpg
June 7th, 2007 at 9:56 amjoe’s particular desalinization proposal requires that the western third of the state drop off into the Pacific, thereby flooding the Central Valley, and he can then go out and rake the salt flats.
June 7th, 2007 at 9:57 amZooey,
You are definitely the early bird in here. Are you battery powered or something? :)
June 7th, 2007 at 9:58 amGlobal warming is “threatening cultural landmarks from Canada to Antarctica, the World Monuments Fund said Wednesday.†New Orleans’ historic neighborhoods, “the Church of the Holy Nativity under Palestinian control in Bethlehem, cultural heritage sites in Iraq and Machu Picchu Historic Sanctuary in Peru are among the top 100 most endangered sites.
This blurb is a little misleading. It makes it sound like Machu Picchu and the Church of Holy Nativity are threatened by climate change. According to the WMF list, New Orleans is threatened by global warming, but the sites in Iraq and Palestine are threatened by conflict and Machu Picchu by increased tourism.
The other sites threatened by global warming specifically are Herschel Island, Canada; Scott’s Hut, Antarctica; Chinguetti Mosque, Mauritania; Sonargaon-Panam City, Bangladesh; and Leh Old Town, Ladakh, India.
June 7th, 2007 at 9:58 amCompTROLLER V-1 sez:
I don’t think you’re quite grasping what I’m trying to insinuate here.
Here…read this. It’s a good primer on what we’re dealing with.
June 7th, 2007 at 10:01 amshane
Glad you appreciated it.
June 7th, 2007 at 10:01 amDon’t forget Pop-Tart Plaza, toasterhead!
June 7th, 2007 at 10:02 amToooodles! :P
Comment by Zooey — June 7, 2007 @ 9:36 am
Ouch! :D
June 7th, 2007 at 10:05 amfreedomrings,
Yes, it would take energy to run the plants. We need to develop cleaner energy technologies, too.
heyzeus,
Why? A third of Saudi Arabia didn’t drop into the sea when they built their desalinization plants.
June 7th, 2007 at 10:05 amI did find a bigger version of the picture above:
Comment by Evil Spaniard — June 7, 2007 @ 9:48 am
LOL
June 7th, 2007 at 10:07 amGeography, joe, geography.
June 7th, 2007 at 10:08 amI did find a bigger version of the picture above:
http://people.itu.int/ ~lapietra/ diving/ RedSea1998/ images/ shark.jpg
Comment by Evil Spaniard
I looks like they retouched this version, the teeth are much whiter, and the grin looks less vicious.
June 7th, 2007 at 10:09 amNP, hayzeus, I ever been an admirer of great, soulless predators.
Comment by Evil Spaniard
Then why aren’t you a Republican? Too smart?
June 7th, 2007 at 10:12 amPols kicking Paris while she’s down.
Speaking the spoiled rich kid, looks like they have let her out after serving only 3 days of her sentence, according to CNN.
June 7th, 2007 at 10:12 amGuess being filthy rich does give you a different “Justice” in this country after all. =P
#31 – “Evidence of intent is all that’s needed for them to be put away, thankfully.” Comment by CompTROLLER V-1 — June 7, 2007 @ 9:45 am
Too bad that logic cannot be used to indict the Bush Administration for wanting to murder the US Constitution. OK, maybe not “murder”, but they do want to hamstring, neuter, and gut it!
June 7th, 2007 at 10:12 amtry this :
http://theheretik.typepad.com/ the_heretik/ images/ vader_fight_bw_cheney.jpg
Comment by Kay
Thanks Kay, now I am nauseous.
June 7th, 2007 at 10:14 amCaption Contest:
Did I get all the Kitten out of my teeth?
Comment by squegeebooo — June 7, 2007 @ 9:33 am
L O L … excellent… maybe the best one ever…
June 7th, 2007 at 10:15 amHere…read this. It’s a good primer on what we’re dealing with.
Comment by TripMaster Monkey — June 7, 2007 @ 10:01 am
ScumTROLLER V-1 is only allowed to read directives from the RNC stamped Approved by Karl Rove personally.
June 7th, 2007 at 10:17 amWhat kind of coffee do you drink in the morning, Zooey? You may want to cut back on the extra shots.
Comment by gummitch
Ew, nasty stuff — never touch it. :)
June 7th, 2007 at 10:17 amYes, it would take energy to run the plants. We need to develop cleaner energy technologies, too.
heyzeus,
Why? A third of Saudi Arabia didn’t drop into the sea when they built their desalinization plants.
Comment by joe — June 7, 2007 @ 10:05 am
Hi Joe,
Saudi Arabia has these things called “oil wells” and they burn this magic substance to create motion in electric plants that power their entire nation. California does not have the electrical power to spare. You live there so you must remember the rolling blackouts? You want to do desalinization and you also say that, “We need to develop cleaner energy technologies, too.”
Now you have put your cart before the horse. You can’t do desalinization unless you have the energy. Honestly Joe, there is no replacement for oil and you must face the facts that irrigation will ultimately fail since what you are doing is spending oil energy to pump water that you don’t naturally have.
June 7th, 2007 at 10:17 amP.S.: Hi Mistress Z :)
Comment by Evil Spaniard
Hello, Senor Evil. I hope life is treating you well. :)
June 7th, 2007 at 10:18 amNP, hayzeus, I ever been an admirer of great, soulless predators.
Comment by Evil Spaniard
Then why aren’t you a Republican? Too smart?
Comment by shane — June 7, 2007 @ 10:12 am
Well, admiring them doesn’t mean that I envy their nutsized brain, or being a mouthbreather :D
June 7th, 2007 at 10:18 amTrip,
With all due respect, many of the recent arrests itself weren’t “fake terror.” While you’ve got a case on the administration milking slogans, exploiting terror for business, pushing arrests of some innocent people to perpetuate their false claims, I don’t mind the CIA/FBI making some mistakes before they get it right, as long as they’re really trying to protect us and no go after personal and business interests.
Your link is a good read, though. I’m still viewing it.
June 7th, 2007 at 10:19 amDid I get all the Kitten out of my teeth?
Comment by squegeebooo
Fantastic!
June 7th, 2007 at 10:19 amZooey, there is a reason for the expression, “apples don’t fall far from the tree.â€
Comment by Marie — June 7, 2007 @ 9:37 am
Or the shorter version, attributed to Newton: “Ouch, da#ned apple…â€
Comment by Evil Spaniard — June 7, 2007 @ 9:42 am
Mmmmm, apple for breakfast….. :D
June 7th, 2007 at 10:21 am… California does not have the electrical power to spare. …
Comment by freedomrings — June 7, 2007 @ 10:17 am
but they’ve got plenty of shoreline…
ever hear of tidal energy? they should be scrambling for that…
plenty of wind there also…
why does everything have to be connected to OIL?
June 7th, 2007 at 10:22 amit doesn’t, really… time to think ALTERNATIVE ENERGY…
past time, but hopefully not too late…
…
freedomrings sez:
There’s always solar desalinization.
Last I checked, California gets quite a bit of sun…
Just sayin’…
June 7th, 2007 at 10:22 amHappens all the time.. paper towels, feminine napkins, condoms, gum wrappers, cigarette butts, Q-tips, dental floss, test strips, cottonballs, washclothes.
Such is what I learned doing plumbing work.
Comment by Stella Octangula
Gross. I guess that’s why plumbers get the big bucks, right?
I bet you don’t chew your nails…..
June 7th, 2007 at 10:24 amAbout energy in California to desalinize: as far as I know, the thing that California has in excess is sun. Maybe photovoltaic panels in every home and some photovoltaic pannel fields would help, if not offset the energy cost.
June 7th, 2007 at 10:25 amComment by shane
You should look at that manual of how to reduce verbally attacking people within an inch of their life because you simply don’t like what they have to say, child beater.
And before you cite any of my comments as a “contradiction,” you’ll find those comments merely a response to your spewing insults. Now, go read some stalinist blogs and cite them here as a “credible source.” Your DNC manual must be somewhere.
June 7th, 2007 at 10:26 amWell enough, Mrs Z, at least I’m alive and that means something :D
June 7th, 2007 at 10:28 amwhat are YOU doing up so early???!
getting a head start today? …
oh, and, do those things really work? worth the hassle?
…
Comment by katy
I’m always up this early! I’m just usually not on TP that early — I got a late start on my walk.
The whitestrips do work. I haven’t used them, but the kids at school do. I practically had to wear my shades in class, their teeth were so white.
Heh. They overdo it, and I think it looks like they’re wearing dentures. Shhhhh…..
June 7th, 2007 at 10:28 amYou are definitely the early bird in here. Are you battery powered or something? :)
Comment by Crump’s Brother
Heh. I’m solar powered. :-)
June 7th, 2007 at 10:31 amCompTROLLER V-1 sez:
Really, CT? Which ones? What evidence do you have that these particular terror plots, as opposed to others, are 100% genuine?
For the record, swooping in and arresting people who were merely talking about committing a terrorist act, when they clearly lack the the resources, intelligence, and expertise to make the concept a reality, and then touting that as a “successfully foiled terrorist attack” is “fake terror”. If the conspirators are completely unable to make good on their alleged “threats”, we haven’t been “saved” from anything.
This administration has given us no reason to trust them and every reason to distrust them. Application of a little critical thought into the subjects of these “foiled terror plots”, as well as the unfoiled terror plot that started this whole mess, is essential to understanding how we’ve got to the point where we are now, and how we’re going to turn away from the cliff.
June 7th, 2007 at 10:32 amFrom living in SoCal, I would say that solar is the way to go, since the sun is relentless down there. If it gets any hotter it could spell trouble. When I was down there, the grid was stressed about as far as it could go. They had some brownouts and blackouts for a short period of time. Nothing like the Enron stuff, but when it is 112º with no AC, it is pretty miserable.
June 7th, 2007 at 10:33 amThanks to Comey’s testimony, the american people are finally finding the real “devil in the details” whose name is Cheney.
June 7th, 2007 at 10:35 amZooey
The whitestrips do work. I haven’t used them, but the kids at school do. I practically had to wear my shades in class, their teeth were so white.
So Kids are our future, meaning:
June 7th, 2007 at 10:35 am“The Future’s So Bright I Gotta Wear Shades”
P.S. Crest Whitestrips won’t do the job this guy so desperately needs! He needs pure bleach to make those teeth pearly white. Personally, since I believe that one’s inside contributes to one’s external, it’s simply all of the toxic soot of his amorality finally outing him.
June 7th, 2007 at 10:36 amYou should look at that manual of how to reduce verbally attacking people within an inch of their life because you simply don’t like what they have to say, child beater.
Comment by CompTROLLER V-1 — June 7, 2007 @ 10:26 am
Calling me a child beater again. I told you yesterday you’re confusing me with your mother. We don’t all beat our children. Although in your case I can see why your mother had trouble stopping herself but she needed to anyway. Talk to her about it because I’m not a therapist.
Of course I don’t come to a progressive blog to hear neocon propaganda. And if you don’t like being dissed maybe you should go to a neocon site.
June 7th, 2007 at 10:39 amWell enough, Mrs Z, at least I’m alive and that means something :D
Comment by Evil Spaniard
It’s pretty much the only thing. :-D
June 7th, 2007 at 10:41 amSo Kids are our future, meaning:
“The Future’s So Bright I Gotta Wear Shadesâ€
Comment by squegeebooo
You got it, babes. You’re teeth must be so purty….
June 7th, 2007 at 10:43 amP.S. Crest Whitestrips won’t do the job this guy so desperately needs! He needs pure bleach to make those teeth pearly white. Personally, since I believe that one’s inside contributes to one’s external, it’s simply all of the toxic soot of his amorality finally outing him.
Comment by veritas
Yep. The only thing that would help that smile is a combat boot.
June 7th, 2007 at 10:44 amCalling me a child beater again. I told you yesterday you’re confusing me with your mother. We don’t all beat our children. Although in your case I can see why your mother had trouble stopping herself but she needed to anyway. Talk to her about it because I’m not a therapist.
Comment by shane
As we all know, the best way to raise children is to lock them in a closet, and feed them flat foods through the crack under the door. Then, when the child turns 18, there is a highly technical evaluation involving bright lights, pointing and laughing, etc., after which the decision is made whether or not to seal up the crack.
Some parents simply do not get that crack sealed quickly enough.
June 7th, 2007 at 10:49 amBad parenting — what can I say?
This administration has given us no reason to trust them and every reason to distrust them. Application of a little critical thought into the subjects of these “foiled terror plotsâ€, as well as the unfoiled terror plot that started this whole mess, is essential to understanding how we’ve got to the point where we are now, and how we’re going to turn away from the cliff.
Comment by TripMaster Monkey
Thanks for the link it was indeed informative. I guess there are no “new ideas”.
As you can see CT chose to skim the link and rush back to call me a child beater instead. I guess he can relate to the administration since he trumps up fake charges of terrorism to make his argument too.
June 7th, 2007 at 10:51 amComment by shane
Of course, I didn’t mention you were a therapist. I said you were a child beater. I mean, “children are meant to be seen, not heard.” WOW. That caught me off guard. It’s kind of hard of believe that a fully grown woman with children would be using her computer to hurl insults at people, you know, setting that good example. No dissent, just one voice, I see. Good lesson. At least I have the youth-in-transition excuse. I know I won’t be doing that once I get the parenting responsibilty. That’s called family values.
“Dissing” people shouldn’t include shouting tons of foul language. You’ve probably broken TP rules on here numerous times, but got off easy. You shouldn’t harass people then tell them to “go to a neocon site,” or in other words, to get-lost without forming a response to your hate language.
June 7th, 2007 at 10:52 amAh yes, building the Crusader Castle with slave labor. All those who are surprised, raise your hands.
June 7th, 2007 at 10:53 amHmm. No hands raised…
Heh. I’m solar powered. :-)
Comment by Zooey
Maybe you need to cut back on the number of panels.
June 7th, 2007 at 10:53 amYep. The only thing that would help that smile is a combat boot.
Comment by Zooey
Or a bottle of liquid plumber.
June 7th, 2007 at 10:55 amCT,
“Children are meant to be seen, not heard,†is clearly a sarcastic statement.
Rent some Monty Python, and pay attention.
June 7th, 2007 at 10:57 amMaybe you need to cut back on the number of panels.
Comment by shane
They are heavy…..and make a really stupid-looking hat…..
June 7th, 2007 at 10:58 amComment by katy — June 7, 2007 @ 10:22 am
Comment by TripMaster Monkey — June 7, 2007 @ 10:22 am
Comment by Evil Spaniard — June 7, 2007 @ 10:25 am
The three of you have decided that wind, wave and solar will work. So, one of you quickly open a gallium mine and silver mine to make those solar cells. You will need a factory that uses a great deal of electricity to make heat. There are emissions too but the EPA is pretty lax at the moment.
The second person could start a wind turbine factory. You will need to mine copper and that stuff requires a substantial amount of energy to smelt. Copper is now a precious metal so it is harder to find.
The third can work on wave generators. If you like water then this will be a fun project. These flots you will need to build require plastic. You will also need metals that can resist salt and need endless replacement parts. Now if you burn the oil needed to make all of that synthetic stuff you can have electricity or you can burn that oil to make all of the synthetic stuff that will be dashed to bits during storms and simply fail over time.
All three of these require OIL to do! No oil> No plastic or copper mine or gallium mine. You can hope to coat-tail off the existing grid but over time the process will break down. All of these gizzmos you want don’t grow on trees. They are a result of the direct use of fossil fuel, hence the word Petro-Chemical.
Rather than going to blows over this since you say that it can be done than go on and do it! Invest your money and get the projects going! Prove me wrong if you can. Don’t blurt out that these alternatives can work. Simply put them to work and make it happen. I realize the reality of the situation and so that is why I understand the denial inherent at the end of the industrial era. Mass production is the child of fossil fuel.
Look at how the space shuttle works. Those engines are full of chemicals that are the product of oil use. Those tiles are baked in ovens that use fossil fuel. Those wires (miles of them) are the result of a mining system that uses fossil fuel at every point.
I would love it if you could prove me wrong since I have the same problems that you all have. Without mass production I will not be able to replace my hard drive when it ultimately fails and then I will not be able to read about your success at generating power for desalinization.
Don’t forget that you will need billions of $$ so the investors will want to see a plan. You will not be the first to try this. In the end it will come down to a ratio called energy returned on energy invested. A positive or top heavy ratio is profitable while the reverse ratio or larger denominator shows a loss.
You have speculation at this time. Your first step is to draw a plan. Then you must prove your plan based on science and mathematical reasoning. Once you obtain a good plan you must get investors. I’m sure desert states and countries will contribute to your plan since they must irrigate to grow food! At the moment those nations use oil even though they would rather sell the oil they must use it at a loss to eat.
Again, if you have a plan the US Department of Energy would love to hear it! By all means skip this discussion and tell them about it.
June 7th, 2007 at 11:01 amComment by TripMaster
That’s right, Trip. Suspects in genuine talks of a terrorist plot should be brought in for questioning, etc. The intricate nature of each plot – on paper, e-mail, whatever – makes a strong circumstantial case. I don’t want to see them building a bomb in my backyard and have to be the one to call 911. Criminal intent has great bearing.
In my opinion, your contentions through the prism of academic speak make you appear to be soft on terror. Sure, you’re would like to root out corruption, but I think you would like to make the burden of proof to impossible to prove. Nobody should have to write stringent, left-leaning academic papers in order to nail criminals. I mean, hey, how many colleges in this country even embrace military history? Not many, because the race/class history sections snuff them out.
Please, I would like to remain safe, so don’t take your resume` to the CIA/FBI/Pentagon.
June 7th, 2007 at 11:02 amRUCerious sez:
NOTHING this administration does surprises me any longer. This is the administration that has embraced torture, rendered undesirables to secret prisons on foreign soil, and successfully rescinded habeas corpus in a clear violation of the Constitution.
At this point, I wouldn’t be surprised to see Chimpy there with an Egyptian headdress on, overseeing the operation while Cheney, Rove, and Gonzo work the whips…
June 7th, 2007 at 11:03 amComment by Zooey
I don’t care where it came from. Maybe in your generation, you find that statement to be laughable. I don’t have to pay attention to your loony instruction, so back off.
June 7th, 2007 at 11:04 am#65 CompTROLLER V-1
With all due respect, many of the recent arrests itself weren’t “fake terror.†While you’ve got a case on the administration milking slogans, exploiting terror for business, pushing arrests of some innocent people to perpetuate their false claims, I don’t mind the CIA/FBI making some mistakes before they get it right, as long as they’re really trying to protect us and no go after personal and business interests.
Here’s the thing about those arrests. The plotting and funding and transportation in some of these so-called attempts was largely provided by the FBI’s informant. So much assistance was given to these ‘conspirators’ that without it their ‘crimes’ would have amounted to nothing more than incoherent grumbling about the U.S. or the administration. And, even with the goading and ample help of a paid informant, the plots were ridiculously far-fetched and even impossible to execute. The JFK plot was simply not going to work. Jet fuel doesn’t ignite that way in real life. Only in the movies.
I’m sure that, if the FBI is going to continue to operate this way, trying to trump up a sensational headline-grabbing terrorist plot that fizzles down to nothing within a day or two, they can always find some mentally unstable derelicts that they can egg on. But, then again, isn’t that a waste of resources when there are real terrorist plots brewing?
June 7th, 2007 at 11:06 amseriously, though dude — this
June 7th, 2007 at 11:08 amguy is sh!t-scary, as zooey
(or someone, here, once
opined — quite cogently. . .)
Comment by CompTROLLER V-1 — June 7, 2007 @ 10:52 am
Listen kid, back in the 50s children were told not to be disrespectful of adults and to not interrupt adult conversations. And you and your faux president threads have disrupted entire threads too many times to mention, so don’t lecture me on TP etiquette.
And here’s a lesson you apparently haven’t learned, people will treat you the way you act. And your “youth in transition” excuse is just that and it doesn’t justify your verbal assaults against any poster who disagrees with the neocon agenda.
And telling a child to take a time out is not child beating in any community. Apparently you only received corporal punishment and don’t understand the difference. I suggest you take a parenting class before you even consider the possibility.
June 7th, 2007 at 11:09 amComment by freedomrings — June 7, 2007 @ 11:01 am
Clearly, you need to do a little more homework on the subject of solar desalinization.
Here’s a few links to get you started:
June 7th, 2007 at 11:10 am
Did I miss something or has there been nothing on this site about Bush stoking up Cold War tensions with Russia?
And what about that so-called missile shield that Bush is trying to install in all those European countries?
June 7th, 2007 at 11:10 amI don’t care where it came from. Maybe in your generation, you find that statement to be laughable. I don’t have to pay attention to your loony instruction, so back off.
Comment by CompTROLLER V-1
Act like a child, get treated like a child….
Makes no difference to me. Run along…
June 7th, 2007 at 11:10 amComment by freedomrings — June 7, 2007 @ 11:01 am
very good points, all… maybe… i’m no engineer or chemist…
but, what? are you saying, “forget about it”?
let the oil industry continue to quash ideas and development?
what happens WHEN that oil runs out, with no alternatives?
why do oil people think that alternatives cannot be supplemental?
June 7th, 2007 at 11:20 am(or rather, oil supplementing the alternatives)…
why is it so difficult to invision the possibilities and benefits
that could be created when alternative energies are used?
why is that so scary?
…
Comment by shane
Again, you consider dissent a “disruption.” Even the left states that dissent should be healthy and tolerable. Go the whole way, why don’t you? Your mind is on backwards. Properly consider the pattern of discussion here.
And to discredit your lousy claim, you people come after me first. I normally don’t insult any poster here individually the first time around. So yes, my youth-in-transition excuse stands.
You’re making things up as you go along. And if you don’t like Mr. President, he’s here for some comedy and even some legitimate discourse. You can feel free to ignore him instead of delivering personal jabs.
Finally, find a quote anywhere in which I stated that assigning “time-out” is tantamount to child abuse? You actually brought that up AFTER you made the “children mean to be seen, not heard” remark. My comments were based on your quote. So to do a 180, stop projecting. Oh, and stop distorting.
June 7th, 2007 at 11:21 amComment by Zooey
Run along? You need an ego boost today, dictator?
You can run along – to hell.
Do you act like your child?
June 7th, 2007 at 11:24 amWell it looks like the Double Standards in the United States of Feminism continue:
The Ameriskank known as Paris Hilton has been released from jail.
Screw the USA. Women are never held accountable due to Feminist bullshit and they literally get away with murder because of the Pussy Pass. Men, dont get married!
June 7th, 2007 at 11:29 amkaty, I don’t think ‘forget about it’ was the message. I think it was, don’t hang about waiting for technology to solve the problem, because for 100 years, everything we have done has ben predicated on the prospect of cheap, unlimited energy from fossil fuels. There’s no downside to alternative fuels relative to the literal return of the Dark Ages.
The real vision comes in looking around and seing that cheap, unlimited fossil fuel energy created what you see and without it, a whole heck of a lot will change.
A data point: the hydrogen economy. Optimists point to H2 as the fuel of the future. Sure, no carbon, clean burns and leaves water behind, cars can use it, so can fuel cells. Well where do you get H2 naturally? Nowhere. You have to pull it out of water or reform it from natural gas. H2 is a dreadfully inefficient and dangerous form of stored energy (think Hindenburg). And because it is so small, H2 molecules leak out of places a lot easier than liquids like gasoline and nat gas – so existing pipelines and distribution points are no good for H2……..
It took us over a hundred years to get into this mess……
June 7th, 2007 at 11:30 amCompTROLLER V-1 sez:
…and you’ve missed my point entirely.
No one is disputing that such individuals (assuming, of course, that they actually do exist…an assumption that is not entirely warranted) need to be interrupted before they have a chance to turn concept into reality. But touting these unrealistic idiots as “foiled terrorists” and using them as continued justification for the erosion of our civil liberties and the transformation of America into a police state is unacceptable. Period.
Again, I just want to point out that we’re giving the administration the extreme benefit of the doubt by accepting that these alleged “terrorists” actually exist and managed to put together their laughable “terror plots” without any aid or prodding from the very administration that benefits so greatly from their existence.
And there it is. And you were doing so well, too, CT.
Please, reread the link I provided. There is an enemy….but it’s not what you think it is.
Reminds me of an important proverb:
We’re repeating the past right now, CT. The loop is 68 years in length, and began in 2001. Do the math, and share with us what you find.
I understand your desire to remain safe. What you need to understand is that your blind loyalty to an administration that has systematically dismantled everything this country stands for does not make you safe.
I’ll leave you with the words of the from the good pastor Martin Niemoller:
(P.S.: It’s “resumé”.)
June 7th, 2007 at 11:31 amClearly, you need to do a little more homework on the subject of solar desalinization.
Here’s a few links to get you started:
Linky 1
As for your argument concerning fossil fuels, while I don’t dispute your conclusions, I do dispute the relevance. I thought we were talking about desalinization. Setting the goal at developing an effective desalinization solution that doesn’t involve petrochemicals at any point is unreasonable.
Linky 2
Comment by TripMaster Monkey — June 7, 2007 @ 11:10 am
Link #1 points to a process of removing salt from water. It does not include a method to pump water since sea water needs to be pumped to the plant and then out of the plant. Link #2 is more of the same. Since I have done my homework I realize that you need to get the water from the ocean to the users and that is the entire issue. The natural method of delivery is via river! Rivers flow to the ocean not the other way and so you need a refresher course on the basic laws of nature. Here is one to ponder for the remainder of the day.
“Water goes in one direction on the Earth and that direction is?â€
1) Up
2) South
3) West
4) Down
For it to go down it must be up at some point? If that up is vapor that collects in the form of ice on the tops of mountains then we don’t even need to desalinize sea water.
California would need to import more oil to create more electrical power. Thusly, your cart is before your horse! Once again simply build the plants, pump the water and prove me wrong!
June 7th, 2007 at 11:33 amfreedomrings, you are jeopardizing the possibility of a sensible conversation with your tone.
June 7th, 2007 at 11:38 amfreedomrings
Since I have done my homework I realize that you need to get the water from the ocean to the users and that is the entire issue.
Build your Desalination plant below sea level, dig a canal from the sea to the plant. Put some wheels in the canal to generate energy as the water flows down the canal from the sea to the plant. Now you have power, and it doesn’t require any energy to bring the seawater to the plant.
TADA!!
June 7th, 2007 at 11:41 amComment by jonny
PARIS HILTON GOT OUT OF JAIL!?!? ALREADY!?!
June 7th, 2007 at 11:41 amCompTROLLER V-1
Do you act like your child?
“Growing old is inevitable, growing up is an option.”
Words to live by, as told to me by an 80 year old woman watching my exuberance waiting in line to go see a kids movie when I was 21ish.
June 7th, 2007 at 11:45 am#101 Margaret ~
June 7th, 2007 at 11:46 amGood point.
This shit came out of nowhere.
If I had time this morning I’d like to research the effective distance of Iranian missiles, the distance from Iran to Bulgaria, or anywhere in Europe.
This is a total load of crap, which Putin is correctly calling the chymp out on.
Chymp’s response? Screeching, chest thumping and picking lice out of LauraBlowupDoll’s hair.
OK to add to my data point on H2…..
…. if it is so damn hard to find and store and transport……why not?
…. generate it from solar or wind power or wave locally and store it locally for use in a fuel cell which powers the house and your electric car.
Good idea? http://www.hydrogenics.com/our.business.asp
Or generate interest and support for the use of localized fuel cells for power by using natural gas reformed H2 (sure these fuel cells use nat gas, but they more efficient than an equivalent CC generator).
Ah-nold had these fellas on his podium recently. http://www.bloomenergy.com/
June 7th, 2007 at 11:46 amOh man, it stripped out my desalination comment.
freedomrings
I realize that you need to get the water from the ocean to the users and that is the entire issue.
Build the plant below sea level, build a canal, put wheel powered generators along the canal to generate energy as the water passes. This way you get clean water, and an extra energy source.
June 7th, 2007 at 11:49 amNevermind, she was released because of an unspecified medical condition, and will fulfill the remainder of her sentence through home confinement. Still not sure if that’s fair, though. For now, I guess it’s ok.
June 7th, 2007 at 11:49 amFreedomrings,
My only thought, would be one of short term spending vs long term gain. I am have looked at tidal energy, and I don’t know how feasible it would be compared to other forms of alternate energy especially given how corrosive salt water can be.
My belief, is that there would be a short effort to produce the materials for say solar panels or wind farms. The gains would be in the long term, when those collectors are in place, and producing energy. It would at that point be a maintenance issue, not a continual issue. The problem with coal plants, or oil powered plants is they require a continual source of coal or oil. A solar farm, or wind farm once constructed would not only produce power for future projects, but would also use a clean renewable resource to draw power from.
Would it be necessary to invest in such projects? Yes, would it be necessary to import oil, or coal, yes, but the eventual goal would be the ability to move away from fossil fuels.
June 7th, 2007 at 11:53 amThanks for replying RUCerious! Do you think that maybe these “missile defense sites” are just an excuse to put another U.S. base in another country?
June 7th, 2007 at 11:53 amLOL nice pic Dicky Cheney > you need to pick the baby fragments out of your teeth.
June 7th, 2007 at 11:53 amGlobal warming has been eradicated thanks to the leaders at the G8 conference.
HEILIGENDAMM, Germany (Reuters) – World leaders meeting in Germany have agreed to pursue “substantial” cuts in greenhouse gases, Chancellor Angela Merkel said on Thursday.
ADVERTISEMENT
Group of Eight (G8) powers … did refer to the goal of some countries of cutting emissions by 50 percent by 2050.
Since man-made emissions are responsible for, oh about .11% of emissions, this should take that down to .055. Except when you factor in population growth and expanding economies. But that’s just being picky.
Phew. Planet saving is hard work. But it can be done.
LMAO
June 7th, 2007 at 11:54 amvery good points, all… maybe… i’m no engineer or chemist…
but, what? are you saying, “forget about it�
let the oil industry continue to quash ideas and development?
what happens WHEN that oil runs out, with no alternatives?
why do oil people think that alternatives cannot be supplemental?
(or rather, oil supplementing the alternatives)…
why is it so difficult to invision the possibilities and benefits
that could be created when alternative energies are used?
why is that so scary?
…
Comment by katy — June 7, 2007 @ 11:20 am
I’m not an “oil person†and I wish alternatives would be the solution to the biggest problem of all time. You mentioned the occupation of “chemist†and you do realize that we are not talking about chemistry? There is a geological component along with a physical component. It is a fact that all of the pumps, pipes, concrete, and goods needed to implement these alternatives require energy to mine, process, manufacture and distribute.
Solar cells and panels are fantastic but require oil to make and there is no way around that fact. So if I have to burn oil to make your alternative to then make electricity I might as well just make the electricity from burning the oil. We then wind up burning more oil to create the same electricity. I personally believe that we must all “conserve†the remaining energy for things like food production and distribution.
I want conservation while you want to have your cake and eat it too! I want more things turned off and you want to add more devices and machinery. I want medium and light rail for transportation while you want to continue driving your own car. We depend on 85million barrels of oil a day and if that falls people suffer. This is what you need to come to terms with katy. The industrial age began with a revolution. There is a beginning and so then there is also a climax or an end. You must decide where humanity is on this timeline. Industrialization started so we are not at the beginning any longer. We seem to be having problems feeding industry with energy so odds are that we are no longer in the middle. The last available location for the industrial timeline is “at the end!â€
The end!
June 7th, 2007 at 11:57 am#116 Margaret, probably, just another notch in “Amerika’s Destiny” belt for the chymp (lyingMOFO)…
June 7th, 2007 at 11:59 ammaybe these “missile defense sites†are just an excuse to put another U.S. base in another country?
Comment by margaret
At the G-8 summit, Putin has just proposed that the US missile defense sites go into Central Asia, Azerbyjan (sp) to be precise.
The US response was : “Interesting thought…”
I smell a humungous rat here…
June 7th, 2007 at 12:04 pma) this has been part of a greater scam all along (George and Vladimirs sabre rattling)
b) the Chinese are not going to like this at all, which may be the whole point…
c) George may be just stupid enough to plunk himself down in the middle of Russia and China, thinking he is the peacemaker, until the bear and the dragon tear him into little tiny pieces.
CompTROLLER V-1 sez:
…and you’ve missed my point entirely.
No one is disputing that such individuals (assuming, of course, that they actually do exist…an assumption that is not entirely warranted) need to be interrupted before they have a chance to turn concept into reality. But touting these unrealistic idiots as “foiled terrorists” and using them as continued justification for the erosion of our civil liberties and the transformation of America into a police state is unacceptable. Period.
Again, I just want to point out that we’re giving the administration the extreme benefit of the doubt by accepting that these alleged “terrorists” actually exist and managed to put together their laughable “terror plots” without any aid or prodding from the very administration that benefits so greatly from their existence.
And there it is. And you were doing so well, too, CT.
Please, reread the link I provided. There is an enemy….but it’s not what you think it is.
Reminds me of an important proverb:
We’re repeating the past right now, CT. The loop is 68 years in length, and began in 2001. Do the math, and share with us what you find.
I understand your desire to remain safe. What you need to understand is that your blind loyalty to an administration that has systematically dismantled everything this country stands for does not make you safe. Google “Pastor Martin Niemoller” to see a good argument against blind loyalty.
(P.S.: It’s “resumé”.)
June 7th, 2007 at 12:22 pmNooooo! Not you too!!!!!
June 7th, 2007 at 12:46 pmYou can run along – to hell.
Do you act like your child?
Comment by CompTROLLER V-1
Yer funny.
June 7th, 2007 at 1:04 pmNooooo! Not you too!!!!!
Comment by Briseadh na Faire
Sends a chill up the spine, doesn’t it? :D
June 7th, 2007 at 1:05 pmooh, all my comments are back now!! Hooray. So there, my words which became not words, are now words again.
June 7th, 2007 at 1:06 pmheyzeus said – “I smell a humungous rat here…
Do do I. Putin capitulated way too easily.
June 7th, 2007 at 1:27 pmmuckdog, either put up your source for your ridiculous statement about man-made emissions: “Since man-made emissions are responsible for, oh about .11% of emissions, this should take that down to .055. ”
Or STFU and apply for the Roger Rabbit school of gasoline price forecasting:
June 7th, 2007 at 1:40 pm“Most are also getting out of Oil right now as it looks to be heading back down to around $40 per barrel and around $1.15 per gallon for gas by spring 2007″ – Roger Rabbit, September 2006
freedomrings, you are jeopardizing the possibility of a sensible conversation with your tone.
Comment by TerrytheTurtle — June 7, 2007 @ 11:38 am
So my typing has a tone to it? Relax. Nothing is being jeopardized Terry. Green people buy cars made the same old way with additional components all made in Japan. The boad ride over was on the same old ship that brought over all of the rest of the garbage we don’t even need. They are going to drive on those synthetic tires on those oil roads to the same old places. When they get there they are going to report to their friends that they are helping to reduce pollution.
If they stayed home and told stories in the dark then they would be reducing emmissions.
June 7th, 2007 at 1:44 pm“The founder of a Republican environmental organization was charged Wednesday with tax evasion and obstruction of justice as part of the continuing federal criminal investigation into lobbying practices in the Jack Abramoff corruption scandal,” Richard A. Serrano reports for the LA Times.
The article continues, “Italia Federici, president of the Council of Republicans for Environmental Advocacy, allegedly failed to pay more than $77,000 in federal income taxes from 2001 to 2003. She was also cited for making ‘false and fictitious’ statements before the Senate Indian Affairs Committee in 2005, which was investigating Abramoff’s representation of Native American tribes.”
The paper reports that “a hearing on the case has been set for Friday.”
June 7th, 2007 at 1:50 pm#93 Comment by katy — June 7, 2007 @ 10:22 am
Comment by TripMaster Monkey — June 7, 2007 @ 10:22 am
Comment by Evil Spaniard — June 7, 2007 @ 10:25 am
The three of you have decided that wind, wave and solar will work. So, one of you quickly open a gallium mine and silver mine to make those solar cells. You will need a factory that uses a great deal of electricity to make heat. There are emissions too but the EPA is pretty lax at the moment.
Tsk, tsk, tsk, how dishonest of you. First, there exists already technology that doesn’t need gallium or silver, or other dangerous components. Second, as the article in wikipedia, topic “photovoltaic” shows, the energy needed to produce the solar panels is recovered in 1 to 2 years, while the panels have a life of 30 years. Looks as if the panels are a real option. And you assume that the “factory” that produces the electricity to produce the panels would need combustibles, thus having emissions. What about dams and hydroelectric power, for example? I see, you totally forgot it. Totally understandable, coming from a citizen of the country with one of the biggest dams in the world, the Hoover Dam.
The second person could start a wind turbine factory. You will need to mine copper and that stuff requires a substantial amount of energy to smelt. Copper is now a precious metal so it is harder to find.
Because oil will last forever, isn’t?
The third can work on wave generators. If you like water then this will be a fun project. These flots you will need to build require plastic. You will also need metals that can resist salt and need endless replacement parts. Now if you burn the oil needed to make all of that synthetic stuff you can have electricity or you can burn that oil to make all of the synthetic stuff that will be dashed to bits during storms and simply fail over time.
All that rust and decay due to the salty water and storms has never stopped us from making ships, isn’t? And, as far as I think, nowadays the sinking of a ship is an exception. And, it’s a matter of priorities the use of the adequate materials. And, as I demonstrated before, the return of investment can easily offset the initial cost of energy.
All three of these require OIL to do! No oil> No plastic or copper mine or gallium mine. You can hope to coat-tail off the existing grid but over time the process will break down. All of these gizzmos you want don’t grow on trees. They are a result of the direct use of fossil fuel, hence the word Petro-Chemical.
AS I’ve demonstrated, there is no need of DIRECT use of fossil fuel, and the energy spent can be recovered in not a long time.
Rather than going to blows over this since you say that it can be done than go on and do it! Invest your money and get the projects going! Prove me wrong if you can. Don’t blurt out that these alternatives can work. Simply put them to work and make it happen. I realize the reality of the situation and so that is why I understand the denial inherent at the end of the industrial era. Mass production is the child of fossil fuel.
So you will commit suicide when the last drop of oil is spent? Frankly, what a pessimistic understanding of the world.
Look at how the space shuttle works. Those engines are full of chemicals that are the product of oil use. Those tiles are baked in ovens that use fossil fuel. Those wires (miles of them) are the result of a mining system that uses fossil fuel at every point.
And?
I would love it if you could prove me wrong since I have the same problems that you all have. Without mass production I will not be able to replace my hard drive when it ultimately fails and then I will not be able to read about your success at generating power for desalinization.
I also loved the movie Mad Max.
Don’t forget that you will need billions of $$ so the investors will want to see a plan. You will not be the first to try this. In the end it will come down to a ratio called energy returned on energy invested. A positive or top heavy ratio is profitable while the reverse ratio or larger denominator shows a loss.
Like this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photovoltaic
A key indicator of environmental performance is the ratio of electricity generated divided by the energy required to build and maintain the equipment. Of course, little is gained if it takes as much energy to produce the modules as they produce in their lifetimes. This ratio is called the energy return on investment (EROI) This should not be confused with the economic return on investment, which varies according to local energy prices, subsidies available and metering techniques. A related concept is the energy pay-back time, i.e. the time required to produce an amount of energy as great as what was consumed during production.
Crystalline silicon PV systems presently have energy pay-back times of 1.5-2 years for South-European locations and 2.7-3.5 years for Middle-European locations. For silicon technology clear prospects for a reduction of energy input exist, and an energy pay-back of 1 year may be possible within a few years. Thin film technologies now have energy pay-back times in the range of 1-1.5 years (S.Europe).[38] With lifetimes of such systems of at least 30 years, the EROI is in the range of 10 to 30.
I see high efficiency where you see apocalypse.
You have speculation at this time. Your first step is to draw a plan. Then you must prove your plan based on science and mathematical reasoning. Once you obtain a good plan you must get investors. I’m sure desert states and countries will contribute to your plan since they must irrigate to grow food! At the moment those nations use oil even though they would rather sell the oil they must use it at a loss to eat.
I presented you facts. And is a fact also that your country doesn’t invest more in solar energy, because your GOP doesn’t want. If your government doesn’t firestart it, making cheaper and even more feasible, private investors and initiatives will act too late.
Again, if you have a plan the US Department of Energy would love to hear it! By all means skip this discussion and tell them about it.
Comment by freedomrings — June 7, 2007 @ 11:01 am
As far as the helm of the US Department of Energy is controlled by the actual GOP, denier of alternative sources of energy, I doubt it will do anything meaningful.
freedomrings, you’re lulled by the “free market capitalism” concept. The private sector will not act until they get better benefits than with the oil, and in the present moment, with the (artificially) overinflated price of oil, it’s too hard without public involvement.
June 7th, 2007 at 1:51 pmOr STFU and apply for the Roger Rabbit school of gasoline price forecasting:
“Most are also getting out of Oil right now as it looks to be heading back down to around $40 per barrel and around $1.15 per gallon for gas by spring 2007″ – Roger Rabbit, September 2006
Comment by TerrytheTurtle — June 7, 2007 @ 1:40 pm
I get chastised by you for my tone and then you tell this guy to STFU?? Yes, his price forecast is wrong but your STFU comment is simply an attack on your part. Sure, you would feel like a fool explaining simple supply and demand but the issue is that you feel the need to tell me to watch my keys but then you go and tell him to STFU.
You are hypocrisy in motion and should follow your own advice Terry. You could also simply put up a retraction or apology. I’ll ct this here in order to conserve energy!
June 7th, 2007 at 1:53 pmAnd to discredit your lousy claim, you people come after me first. I normally don’t insult any poster here individually the first time around. So yes, my youth-in-transition excuse stands.
You’re making things up as you go along. And if you don’t like Mr. President, he’s here for some comedy and even some legitimate discourse. You can feel free to ignore him instead of delivering personal jabs.
Finally, find a quote anywhere in which I stated that assigning “time-out†is tantamount to child abuse? You actually brought that up AFTER you made the “children mean to be seen, not heard†remark. My comments were based on your quote. So to do a 180, stop projecting. Oh, and stop distorting.
Comment by CompTROLLER V-1 — June 7, 2007 @ 11:21 am
Here’s your comments from yesterday. And you started with me, for the record.
Comment by shane
Butt kisser. I think you need a job yourself.
…..ohhhhh…Nico! Yer so kewl….hehe. Employ me away…yay.
Comment by CompTROLLER V-1 — June 6, 2007 @ 8:35 pm
So, Trippy, what’s your point of repeating my statement that I was in H.S. during the Iraq invasion/9-11 attacks? Where are you trying to get at?
Fart a little, old man.
Comment by CompTROLLER V-1 — June 6, 2007 @ 8:56 pm
Shut up ScumTROLLER, children are to be seen and not heard. Go sit in the corner and don’t speak until you’re spoken to. Now go.
Comment by shane
I’m referring you to CPS. You must feel good setting a timetable to beat your own children.
The right opposes timetables. The left uses one to medicate their children excessively.
Hunger for that power, Shane!
Comment by CompTROLLER V-1
And for talking back to you I’m being accused of beating childred and your referring me to CPS. And your pissed off. Those are serious charges you’re making. The kind where children get pulled out of their homes because somebody like you makes up bald faced lies. And you’re pissed. Too effing bad.
June 7th, 2007 at 1:59 pmfreedomrings, you are jeopardizing the possibility of a sensible conversation with your tone.
Comment by TerrytheTurtle — June 7, 2007 @ 11:38 am
Well TtT, it’s obvious you have children. Only a parent picks up on that tone. Oh, and probably teachers.
June 7th, 2007 at 2:01 pmNooooo! Not you too!!!!!
Comment by Briseadh na Faire
Sends a chill up the spine, doesn’t it? :D
Comment by Zooey
If you start copying vv too much were going to have to send you to TP rehab.
June 7th, 2007 at 2:04 pm“I get chastised by you for my tone and then you tell this guy to STFU?? ”
Yeah, its a fair catch, freedomrings. My apologies for firing off on muckdog as it pertains to your posts. If you follow muckdog he/she/it adds nothing to the debate, ever – they’ve more than earned the STFU for past behavior – I guess I fit the response to the troll muckdog and cut the abuse straight away.
Your posts were good reading and before the discussion went south, I thought a gentle comment would help. Apologies again.
June 7th, 2007 at 2:32 pmThat’s cut TO the abuse
June 7th, 2007 at 2:33 pmfreedomrings, you’re lulled by the “free market capitalism†concept. The private sector will not act until they get better benefits than with the oil, and in the present moment, with the (artificially) overinflated price of oil, it’s too hard without public involvement.
Comment by Evil Spaniard — June 7, 2007 @ 1:51 pm
I think you need to read my post again. I gave them my blessings and suggested that they get on the ball and build that desalinization plant full stop. I disagree with enough of your conclusions to disregard what you have written entirely. Join them and build that desalinization plant in California and put your money where your mouth is. It will be another Flosby Flop in the grand scheme of human events.
Your basic idea is to use oil energy to create other solar products. Oil represents ancient sunlight stored in a liquid or in a solid like coal. If you search Google for “solar cell EROEI” you will see that there is much FUD.
My point is not to argue with you since I will never agree with you. You assume you can keep on going and simply change your energy sources. This isn’t the open practice of conservation on your part. It is the active process of using the remaining fossil resources to make devices rather than rationing the remaining oil.
PV info for you to see that deep and strip mines are needed. Items like gold are rare and others are difficult to extract. You need billions of photovoltaic cells to come close to the energy value of oil and as you make them the raw materials will get more energy intensive to obtain. Refining some of these is difficult and many create waste that is dangerous to the environment.
Cu = Copper is fundamental to anything done with electricity
Ag= Silver and can be used in PVs
Au= Gold and can be used in PVs
Al= Aluminum is strip mined in huge scales as bauxite and is used in making PVs
Ga= Gallium is an elemental metal that is like mercury at room temperature. Gallium is used in PVs
In= Indium when pure metal gives a high-pitched “scream” when bent and is used in PVs
S= Sulfur is one of the few elements that is readily available and can be used in PVs
Se= Selenium is available from the copper mining process. It is an element that can be used in PVs
Te= Tellurium is a crystalline element and its extraction is complex and it is found in copper mining.
Possible photovoltaic combinations are:
June 7th, 2007 at 2:50 pmCu, Ag, Au (most efficient) or Al, Ga, In or S, Se, Te (least efficient)
If you start copying vv too much were going to have to send you to TP rehab.
Comment by shane
If they have massage, I’m packed….
June 7th, 2007 at 2:54 pmfreedomrings said: “Oil represents ancient sunlight stored in a liquid or in a solid like coal.” Is that true? I’ve always been told that oil is the result of organic material being compressed for millions of years.
June 7th, 2007 at 3:00 pmComment by margaret — June 7, 2007 @ 3:00 pm
You’re both right, margaret. Oil is the result of organic material being compressed for millions of years, but the energy in oil comes from the solar power that was originally captured by that organic matter, just as when you burn a piece of wood, you’re liberating the stored solar energy that that wood captured and stored during its lifetime.
June 7th, 2007 at 3:16 pmTerry, I’ve already posted my source for the “global warming” emissions produced by man.
Most here just ignore them, because it goes against their religion.
Because lets face it, global warming is a cult at this point.
June 7th, 2007 at 3:20 pmComment by margaret — June 7, 2007 @ 3:00 pm
The operative word you stated is ORGANIC. No sun > no life > no oil
June 7th, 2007 at 3:22 pmIn a way all living things are solar cells. Oil is liquid sun and can be thought of as a battery. Once you burn it you release the energy within. Once it is gone it is gone. The oil is thought to be the result of a mass extinction here on Earth. When tested sometimes various fossils are found in and around the oil and the name Fossil Fuel was coined.
Comment by margaret — June 7, 2007 @ 3:00 pm
I should also point out that there are 2 concurrent theories about the nature of oil. One side insists that oil is the product of sun, organics, heat, pressure and time. The other side insists that oil is abiotic and is a naturally occurring component of the Earth and is always being manufactured.
June 7th, 2007 at 3:32 pmfreedomrings sez:
Don’t forget geothermal power. It’s the one power source that can’t be traced directly back to the sun.
June 7th, 2007 at 3:35 pmComment by freedomrings — June 7, 2007 @ 3:32 pm
There’s really no reason to mention the abiotic theory here, FR. In addition to it being pretty groundless, the fact that rejuvenation of oil reserves by either method is measurable only in geological time means that regardless of the generation method, for the purpose of human time scales, oil is a limited, nonrenewable resource.
June 7th, 2007 at 3:44 pm“Terry, I’ve already posted my source for the “global warming†emissions produced by man.” – go ahead, indulge me.
Or perhaps you can help us understand the huge leap in CO2 PPM we notice in the atmosphere after 1750?
June 7th, 2007 at 3:48 pmThere’s really no reason to mention the abiotic theory here, FR. In addition to it being pretty groundless, the fact that rejuvenation of oil reserves by either method is measurable only in geological time means that regardless of the generation method, for the purpose of human time scales, oil is a limited, nonrenewable resource.
Comment by TripMaster Monkey — June 7, 2007 @ 3:44 pm
I was not aware that you are a censor or moderator Mr. Monkey. Thank you for being a Socialist and telling me what it is OK to talk about. I would comment on geothermal but since you are not only the resident expert but are in fact the TP censor/moderator I will just stick to finger painting till you tell me that that is not allowed.
Since I brought up the whole liquid sun thing and since I brought up the whole conservation thing my posting about these topics is not baseless chatter but instead dynamic information. Margaret might not know something or be unclear about something I said? If abiotic theory happens to be correct then the coined name “fossil fuel” is completely wrong!
Since you are the head person here I hope we can talk about my hobby of catching Pokémon instead?
June 7th, 2007 at 3:58 pmThere’s really no reason to mention the abiotic theory here, FR. In addition to it being pretty groundless, the fact that rejuvenation of oil reserves by either method is measurable only in geological time means that regardless of the generation method, for the purpose of human time scales, oil is a limited, nonrenewable resource.
Comment by TripMaster Monkey — June 7, 2007 @ 3:44 pm
Since you are the head person here I hope we can talk about my hobby of catching Pokémon instead?
June 7th, 2007 at 4:48 pmmuckdog got nothing – tosser.
June 7th, 2007 at 9:12 pmfreedom rings, your argument amounts to “transitioning to better energy technologies will require fossiel fuels.” No kidding. Do you know what else requires fossil fuels? Running our society on fossil fuels! Yours is completely circular logic – you might as well tell me that investing in stocks is a bad way to make money, because it costs money to invest.
Also, as far as pumping water, you do know that most of California’s water supply needs to be pumped over the Rocky Mountains, right?
June 7th, 2007 at 10:13 pmWell it looks like the Double Standards in the United States of Feminism continue:
The Ameriskank known as Paris Hilton has been released from jail.
Screw the USA. Women are never held accountable due to Feminist bullshit and they literally get away with murder because of the Pussy Pass. Men, dont get married!
Comment by jonny
Poor little misogynist thinks only women get out of jail just because super rich-bitch Paris is released in three days! Have you ever looked up the number of women actually incarcerated for years, jonny-boy? Do you think poor women get out so easily? And, BTW, even super-rich Martha Stewart served a full sentence.
June 7th, 2007 at 11:06 pmDo you resent your Daddy for marrying your Mommy? Or maybe they never married, eh? But don’t worry, boy; nobody is likely to want to marry you. Now please find a nice boyfriend and leave this site to adults.
your argument amounts to “transitioning to better energy technologies will require fossiel fuels.†No kidding. Do you know what else requires fossil fuels? Running our society on fossil fuels! Yours is completely circular logic – you might as well tell me that investing in stocks is a bad way to make money, because it costs money to invest.
Also, as far as pumping water, you do know that most of California’s water supply needs to be pumped over the Rocky Mountains, right?
Comment by joe — June 7, 2007 @ 10:13 pm
Exactly we will burn the remaining oil to produce the devices that will fail to create enough energy to sustain our society. The industrial age will close and your plan will starve billions in the world. We must conserve the remaining oil by a combination of actions. Rationing, no private automobiles, light rail, community food centers, 10 hour work days, composting everything organic including people, etc.
We must severely limit industrialization of any kind if we are to advert our extinction. You want to build a bunch of machines and sacrifice the remaining oil so you can avoid any personal change.
Now here is the skinny on California’s water via Arnold…
Wow, only $6,000,000,000,000.00! Smart people move away from forming deserts as they are deserted for a reason. California as is, is unable to meet its energy demands. Desalinization will require more electricity and importing more oil, natural gas and coal.
June 8th, 2007 at 12:02 am