‘Massive and systemic violations’ of human rights.
By on Jun 8th, 2007 at 10:47 am
‘Massive and systemic violations’ of human rights.
A Council of Europe investigator says that he has “enough evidence to state” that the CIA operated secret prisons in Poland and Romania. Der Spiegel obtained a copy of the report:
The illegal deportation of suspects by CIA kidnapping teams in Europe amounts to a “massive and systematic violation of human rights,” the report says.
[Dick] Marty, who conducted the investigation on behalf of the Council of Europe, accuses the CIA of having committing a number of transgressions: “We believe we have shown that the CIA committed a whole series of illegal acts in Europe by abducting individuals, detaining them in secret locations and subjecting them to interrogation techniques tantamount to torture.”
UPDATE: Spencer Ackerman has more.
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If Saddam Hussain had ever done anything like this, his country would have been invaded and he would have been thrown out of power.
June 8th, 2007 at 10:52 amUS sued over ‘ghost prisoners’
Six human rights groups are suing the US government seeking more details of 39 people they claim were detained in anti-terror operations, and have since gone ‘missing’.
Amnesty International and the others said they have compiled evidence to show the “ghost detainees” were either in or have been in US custody, Al Jazeera’s John Terrett reports.
The move comes after a US civil rights group last month filed a suit against a subsidiary of aircraft manufacturer Boeing for aiding the CIA in flying the suspects to detention facilities.
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/C319E46E-CA30-4959-B5B3-B8D30CA86B47.htm
June 8th, 2007 at 10:53 amJesus F-ing H. Christ. We’re as bad as the old Soviet Union.
“The terrorists hate us for our freedoms… therefore, if we destroy those freedoms, they won’t have any reason to hate us, since we’ll be just like them… since we’re just like us, and we hate ourselves, maybe they’ll still us us because we hate us… shit, hand me a German beer and let’s go torture some suspects…”
June 8th, 2007 at 10:54 amGeorge Bush: Leper of the Free World.
June 8th, 2007 at 10:54 amI am not surprised, but what are the Democrats in Congress going to do about it? Probably next to nothing.
June 8th, 2007 at 10:55 amAmerica is now worse than saddam Hussein – bit like shooting yourself in the foot
June 8th, 2007 at 10:55 amIf Saddam Hussain had ever done anything like this, his country would have been invaded and he would have been thrown out of power.
Comment by Art
But… but… his country was invaded, and he… was… thrown out of office… but… oh, never mind…
June 8th, 2007 at 10:55 amIn Iraq’s four-year looting frenzy, the allies have become the vandals
British and American collusion in the pillaging of Iraq’s heritage is a scandal that will outlive any passing conflict
THIS A GOOD READ –
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,2098272,00.html
June 8th, 2007 at 10:56 am“America, America, God shed his grace on thee…”
June 8th, 2007 at 10:56 amThen the regime responsible…
…should be brought to justice…
…if not by its own people…
…then the global community…
…unless…
…the world is made up of…
…a bunch of HYPOCRITES…
June 8th, 2007 at 10:57 amA very real by-product of the fake war on terror.
June 8th, 2007 at 10:58 amWho cares what “Europe thinks”? Not Bush, as witness by… well you name it
June 8th, 2007 at 10:58 amAmerica is now worse than saddam Hussein – bit like shooting yourself in the foot
Comment by Tobey Tall
You said it, Tobey.
We have become the “enemy.”
June 8th, 2007 at 11:00 am“illegal deportation of suspects” I think not, Dubya did it and goodness knows he doesn’t do anything illegal, by God he’s the leader of the free world.
Our country is pathetic.
June 8th, 2007 at 11:02 amBut, but but Clinton did it!
June 8th, 2007 at 11:03 amNo wonder the whole world hates us, the propaganda, the lies, the killings, all for our bumper sticker “war on terror”
We have seen the enemy, and he is us. The “city upon a hill” lies in ruins.
June 8th, 2007 at 11:04 amWho said that if Fascism ever came to America it would be called Americanism?
June 8th, 2007 at 11:06 amTrial of CIA agents begins in Italy
Italian intelligence agents and a number of agents from America’s CIA have gone on trial in Italy, in the first trial involving the CIA’s extraordinary rendition programme.
The trial began on Friday, in the absence of all 26 US defendants who stand accused of kidnapping an Egyptian man.
June 8th, 2007 at 11:08 amDubya did it and goodness knows he doesn’t do anything illegal, by God he’s the leader of the free world.
Our country is pathetic.
Comment by Texas Democrat
Hey, if the President did it, it’s not illegal. Just ask John Yoo…
And if he refuses to talk, we just might have to waterboard him until he tells us what we want to know…
June 8th, 2007 at 11:09 amOur country is pathetic because the general population does not care and has gotten to used to being lazy ignorant spoiled people.
June 8th, 2007 at 11:10 amNo trolls defending this one, I see…
June 8th, 2007 at 11:12 amI love the phrase “tantamount to torture”. It’s not really torture but it’s kind of like torture. Well, we think it’s kind of like torture but we’re not really sure. But hey, we’re the Council of Europe and you should believe what we say about the CIA because… well, because we’re from Europe dammit!
Hilarious! I bet a Frenchman is in charge of this band of idiot apologists.
I’m sure the CIA is just randomly abducting perfectly innocent people and torturing them. Right.
June 8th, 2007 at 11:12 amI’d like to recommend a couple of old movies.
June 8th, 2007 at 11:15 amFrank Capra’s Meet John Doe. The subplot about the America First type movement is pretty amazing.
Alfred Hitchcock’s Saboteur. Wait for the Ritzy society party run by Nazi sympathizers.
Kiss of the Spider Woman.
And Missing with Jack Lemmon and Sissy Spacek.
Most trolls come onto TP in the afternoon and evening now. They do not bother with the morning threads.
June 8th, 2007 at 11:15 amMore overt hypocrisy? Pray tell!
June 8th, 2007 at 11:16 amAmericans are actually terrorists?? Now who would guess??
June 8th, 2007 at 11:16 amThis is the epitome of circular thinking: Bush’s administration keeps trumping up the “war on terror” as their “fear card” to control the people; Bush’s administration’s own CIA are the true “terrorists” kidnapping foreigners on their own soil. Now doesn’t that just take the cake? It’s Bush’s “self-fulfilling prophesy” isn’t it?
June 8th, 2007 at 11:18 amI am not surprised, but what are the Democrats in Congress going to do about it? Probably next to nothing.
Comment by Jay Randal — June 8, 2007 @ 10:55 am
Under what circumstances could this be a suprise. There is nothing reported here which wasn’t already known. This story amounts to nothing more that the EU finding out what the rest of the world already did.
There is also no “probably” about it. The US has a law specifically prohibiting rendition of detainees to countries where they will be tortured. That is the sole purpose of the extraordinary renditions program and this fact is known to all.
It was violated under Clinton and the Republican controlled congress did nothing. It has been violated under Bush and the Democrat controlled congress will do nothing.
Unless someone is waiting to see how a Perot presidency with an independant congress will handle this the question is pretty much settled.
June 8th, 2007 at 11:18 amMisinformed are we?,
Right you are and as someone who is a news junky and stays well informed I am regularly battered around by my ignorant family and friends. They are without exception “Christian Conservatives” and cannot bear to see reality. It does not bode well for this country.
June 8th, 2007 at 11:19 am“I’m sure the CIA is just randomly abducting perfectly innocent people and torturing them. Right.
Comment by Cynicon Implant — June 8, 2007 @ 11:12 am”
I guess YOU have missed the news stories of MANY innocent people being renditioned, torchered and then released because the CIA determined they had the wrong person.
It does not matter what is going on….. The CIA SHOULD NOT BE TORCHERING!
WE ARE NOT IN A REAL WAR!!!!!
We are in a OCCUPATION by FALSE information to the American public.
Like Sadam did not let the weapons inspectors in before the war! WRONG!!!! They were on the ground and being given FULL access to any and all areas for their work by Sadam. Bush told them to get out because he was going to start bombing.
Why do YOU HATE America CI?????
YOU are NOT a real American, because Americans believe in Truth, and Justice…… Not Lies and Torcher!!!!
June 8th, 2007 at 11:19 amJay Randall: It’s because their robotic brains are not given the GOP “talking points” until mid morning….then it takes time for their new software to program their hardware.
June 8th, 2007 at 11:19 amThose poor misunderstood Islamo Fascists.
June 8th, 2007 at 11:20 amOk…so now what? Are they simply going to do what the Dems in Congress do and go, “Tsk, tsk”, while shaking their heads slowly and then shrug and say, “Ah well…what can one do?” Or will they take action? Personally, I’d like to see Poland and Romania threatened with ejection from the EU and ALL government members who aided and abetted these crimes fired and charged at the Hague.
June 8th, 2007 at 11:21 amTexas Dem: Blind faith is the programming; delusion is their form of reality. After all, when their entire being is based on some vague, diaphenous “diety” up there in the sky, how can they also be grounded in reality? besides, having a “punishing god” allows them to judge and inflict due punishment on those whom they deem the “sinners” – as well, conversely, when they sin themselves, they ask for forgiveness and just as easily and reaily “absolve” their own wrongdoing. With blind faith and a religion of “convenience”, they can be both God and whipping boy.
June 8th, 2007 at 11:22 amCould congress look into this and find out exactly who knew what, and when they knew it?
June 8th, 2007 at 11:23 amIt IS impeachment time, yes it is, put it back on the fu(king table Nancy.
“They are without exception “Christian Conservatives†and cannot bear to see reality. It does not bode well for this country.
Comment by Texas Democrat — June 8, 2007 @ 11:19 am”
I agree……
The problem with Christians is that they will put their 100% trust in a book that was written by man and that has ZERO evidence to support what is in it, yet they won’t beleive or trust evidence that is ABSOLUTE!!!!
I really believe that these people should be made to go through what the innocent people captured have too, then maybe they will stand up for people rather than support killing. Which is against the bible that they soooo believe in.
June 8th, 2007 at 11:24 amWe’ve never been in a real war, that’s now certain. It’s all been a war of “smoke & mirrors”, “fear and control”, and HUGE war profiteering while the people are taken to the cleaners. It’s time for another american revolution if this new Congress fails us. We need to evict them all from office this next time and find a candidate who actually listens to the people. And, paramount in the equation, is campaign finance reform. If the corporations can no longer “buy a candidate”, then they cannot blackmail said candidate into giving them preferential treatment. It’s so easy to nip yet there is not one candidate among them who has the balls to do it.
June 8th, 2007 at 11:24 amThe Red Cross also used the phrase “tantamount to torture” when describing the treatment of prisoners at Guantanamo & Abu Ghraib. (It was particularly damning coming from the Red Cross as the NGO usually avoids commenting.) “Tantamount to torture” is the diplomatic way of saying torture is going on. It’s like saying there are allegations of torture.
And what exactly do you want them to say, Cynicon Implant? We all know the CIA and the military are engaged in torturing prisoners. It has been admitted. We have photos. Alberto Gonzales has given his opinion that torture is okay. It seems you’re in denial. The USA has become a very, very bad nation. And its citizens the most complacent on earth.
June 8th, 2007 at 11:25 amRU: It’s way “beyond” impeachment time! In fact, the people need to hold this entire Congress “in contempt of their mandated obligation under this constitution to bring about impeachment charges when impeachable crimes have been committed”. This Congress somehow feels that it has the luxury of deciding that for themselves (just like their lack of input from the people regarding this immigration bill)…..their “above the people” in their estimation…..and it’s time to lasso them all in and make certain that they are doing our “bidding”. After all, they serve “at the pleasure of the people” and are failing abysmally these days.
Impeachment would right this sinking ship immediately; impeachment is now an imperative; impeachment is no longer an option; impeachment IS an obligation of this congress.
If this congress fails to bring about impeachment charges soon, the GOP will continue to label them as “whimps” and will use their lack of understanding regarding the responsibility (not option) to impeach against them in the next election.
Dems had better begin doing something….the independents are eyeing Chuck Hagel pretty closely these days! That handwriting will be soon on the wall as this group of Dems fails to uphold the mandate of the midterms…..
Someone like Al Gore or Chuck Hagel will be just what the independents need to convert them from Dem…..
June 8th, 2007 at 11:29 amTorture is torture – plain & simple and everyone knows what that entails. Parsing words or playing with semantics is the dishonest tool of this administration which is bringing them down. Just like George Tenet in his interview regarding torture looked like an animal; so Gonzo et al appear when they speak of it – you can actually see the smirk and the licking of the chops….utterly and totally disgusting!
June 8th, 2007 at 11:31 amDefend what ? You may as well say there are no trolls defending a news report about the US military using cluster bombs in 2007. Why the fk would anyone need to ? Hasn’t needed it for the past few decades.
I’m considered a troll here.
The last time I discussed rendition here — in disagreement with every other commentor, as trolling requires — you guys were defending it on the basis that it never occurred until it occurred in a manner you were comfortable criticising.
“OMG prove that ever happened” and the like.
Yeah. Those trolls are really lame aren’t they. Can’t bring themselves to selectively defend some cases of torture programs but not others like you will.
Way to stake out the moral high ground there pal.
Received the exact same response as my “defense” of domestic spying by the NSA come to think of it. “OMG prove that the NSA ever did that before 9/11 with the same equipement, personnel, programs and results”.
That US Constitution that got created in 2000 has really been abused ever since hasn’t it ?
June 8th, 2007 at 11:32 amI am not surprised, but what are the Democrats in Congress going to do about it? Probably next to nothing.
Comment by Jay Randal — June 8, 2007 @ 10:55 am
Close, Jay…
I’d say probably absolutely nothing. It’ll be interesting to see how little is done.
June 8th, 2007 at 11:32 amor back to dem, as the case would be with Gore.
June 8th, 2007 at 11:32 amAnd the last time I checked, the Independent Party was the fastest growing party in the country.
June 8th, 2007 at 11:33 amHonestly, who cares!
June 8th, 2007 at 11:36 amRussia, China, Iran, Venezuala, Cuba and India use torture, what’s the difference if we do it?
Hey Cuba, Venezual and Iran the darlings of the Left do it.
Why can’t America do it if the Left’s favorites do it too!
Kilo: I wish I could follow your logic or comprehend your commentary to be able to respond but, unfortunately, I cannot.
June 8th, 2007 at 11:36 amTorture is torture
Comment by veritas — June 8, 2007 @ 11:31 am
Good, you seem to have a grip on the “is” of identity. Next week we’ll work on the existential. Week three, the “is” of predication.
June 8th, 2007 at 11:36 amThe first thing you said. That one.
By….. the US ? Why not kick Uganda out of the African Union while you are at it whitey ?
Again with the fkn Hague.
What do you people get taught at school ?
How does this “Hague” enjoy such a mythical reputation rivalling Superman in it’s application of justice and laws, when it is clearly more akin to the Star Wars Kid ?
You are talking about nations that let the US use it’s airfields and facilites. The Hague can’t even prosecute the commanders of genocide campaigns. Even after they’ve determined that there was a genocide and who directed it.
You want them to prosecute lease agreements. FFS already.
Why not refer to the Nuremberg tribunerals instead. Sure you’ll be off by 60 years and have gotten the war wrong but at least you’ll be referring to something that existed.
June 8th, 2007 at 11:42 amThe judicial body you are referring to, in the capacity you cite, doesn’t.
Three human rights groups sued the US government Thursday to force it to disclose what it knows about the fate of more than three dozen detainees in the “global war on terror” who are believed to have been held by the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) in secret prisons at some point over the past five years and who remain unaccounted for.
The three New York-based groups – Amnesty International USA, the Center for Constitutional Rights, and the International Human Rights Clinic of New York University School of Law – filed their suit under the Freedom of Information Act, alleging that the government is withholding documents that can shed light on what happened to the 39 “disappeared” detainees and where they might be found.
“What we’re asking is where are these 39 people now, and what’s happened to them since they ‘disappeared’?” said Joanne Mariner, Terrorism and Counterterrorism director at Human Rights Watch, which, while not a plaintiff in the case, contributed to a report, also released Thursday, that forms the basis of the lawsuit.
June 8th, 2007 at 11:47 amWell try this:
“OMG did you see this report that says the US military killed some civilians.”
That’s nothing new, nothing that anyone’s given anything moe than a token toss about to date, nothing that’s going to change and nothing that anyone is going to jail for.
Now substitute out those details for those out of the news that the CIA runs torture programs. Same deal. Clearer ?
June 8th, 2007 at 11:49 am“Now substitute out those details for those out of the news that the CIA runs torture programs. Same deal. Clearer ?
Comment by Kilo — June 8, 2007 @ 11:49 am”
You should really consider seeing a doctor for some therapy!!!!!
Talking about soldiers killing during a battle and the CIA kidnapping innocent people and torchering them ARE NOT the same in any way shape or form……
Infact, it is AGAINST THE CONSTITUTION to do this….. So ANYONE who does it or supports it is NOT AN AMERICAN! PERIOD.
June 8th, 2007 at 11:54 am28 – do you have any links to support your claim that Clinton conducted extraordinary renditions, or are you making unsupported claims in a misguided attempt to establish an unproven “Clinton did it too” claim?
June 8th, 2007 at 11:56 amHey Cuba, Venezual and Iran the darlings of the Left do it.
Why can’t America do it if the Left’s favorites do it too!
Comment by Joker
Gosh, Joker. You sure are a hoot. Vague, sweeping generalities that can’t be proven or disproven, meaningless labels, irrational conclusions.
And incoherent too, I see.
Perhaps yu should wait until the P.M. before posting. Maybe you’ll make sense then.
June 8th, 2007 at 11:57 amI wonder what Americans will do if and when Bush carts off US citizens in the dead of night to Halliburton camps in Idaho or Utah?
June 8th, 2007 at 11:59 amWe have become the enemy to the rest of the world….we are war criminals, at least the ones like -
Jake
VV
M12
MAF54
Timmy
Exley
Pres Clinton
Mr Pres
They are also war criminals in their support for Bush’s war crimes, people who are willingful ignorant of his crimes should also be held accountable.
IGNORE THE TROLLS – Debate is good – Trolling is bad
June 8th, 2007 at 12:00 pmNow substitute out those details for those out of the news that the CIA runs torture programs. Same deal. Clearer ?
Comment by Kilo — June 8, 2007 @ 11:49 am
The only reason people don’t care about troops killing civilians or secret prisons is because they are not shown on the mass media news. Everything is whether or not Paris Hilton will have to go back to jail.
June 8th, 2007 at 12:01 pm“I wonder what Americans will do if and when Bush carts off US citizens in the dead of night to Halliburton camps in Idaho or Utah?
Comment by Jay Randal — June 8, 2007 @ 11:59 am”
Absolutely nothing…… As long as it does not effect them or their way of life…..
But when they are effected, then it will be the worst thing in this world and they will then stand up and shout that this is ILLEGAL and un-American.
Otherwise, it will be the same ol same ol….
June 8th, 2007 at 12:02 pmWay to stake out the moral high ground there pal.
Received the exact same response as my “defense†of domestic spying by the NSA come to think of it. “OMG prove that the NSA ever did that before 9/11 with the same equipement, personnel, programs and resultsâ€.
That US Constitution that got created in 2000 has really been abused ever since hasn’t it ?
Comment by Kilo
Well, it sure beats staking out the moral low ground…
Unlike you, Kilo, I have a day job to go to. Undoubtedly, you have a “hand job” to go to. I would love to sit here and casually shread your delusional rantings for you, but I don’t live in my mommie’s basement (or wear her clothes while huffing twinkies all day, for that matter…)
So, in passing, I’ll quote your VP and just say, “Go F- yourself, windbag.”
Oh, BTW, how will you feel about a lack of habeas corpus when Dems/Libs are in power in the future and abuse those rights to the degree the GOP has seen fit to?
Tootles, Kilo. I think I hear your GF calling… you know, Rosie Palm…
June 8th, 2007 at 12:04 pmRemoveBush > will they say that as they are being carted away to the camps?
June 8th, 2007 at 12:05 pm# 39
June 8th, 2007 at 12:08 pmRight on!!!!!!!!!!!
I’m calling my senators and congresswoman now!!!!
I’m going to give them a piece of my mind!
Comment by Kilo — June 8, 2007 @ 11:42 am
Then please enlighten us. What international bodies exist today to prosecute international crimes?
June 8th, 2007 at 12:10 pm“RemoveBush > will they say that as they are being carted away to the camps?
Comment by Jay Randal — June 8, 2007 @ 12:05 pm”
Probably not them, but family members….. After all… They won’t have a chance to do that if it is them being carted off….
June 8th, 2007 at 12:11 pmRemovebush at #51 these bushites really are sick people aren’t they?
June 8th, 2007 at 12:12 pm“Removebush at #51 these bushites really are sick people aren’t they?
Comment by klyde — June 8, 2007 @ 12:12 pm”
YES!
As an American, and as a Veteran of the US Army I am disgusted at what this administration has done to my country.
They have destroyed our country in 6 years and it will take DECADES to repair this mess.
I have sent letter after letter to Congress to Impeach this criminal bunch, and included reasons with links and PROOF of their ciminal acts, but they refuse to act.
Its really a sad day for this ONCE great nation…..
June 8th, 2007 at 12:15 pm“I wonder what Americans will do if and when Bush carts off US citizens in the dead of night to Halliburton camps in Idaho or Utah?
June 8th, 2007 at 12:17 pmThose days may be here. Is there “anything in the text of the MCA which prevents, either in good faith mistake or as an act of political oppression, the “disappearing” of a detainee. That is, is there anything within the text of the MCA to rule out picking up someone off the streets, declaring them an AUEC, letting them sit in a hole without ever convening a commission, and doing so without ever notifying anyone this has been done?”
No they’re not.
Except for the ways in which I said they were identical.
That you quoted.
You retard.
Well in that case I can’t see why Swarzenegger should be prevented from running for President. You apparently think you haven’t had a single American citizen in office to date.
June 8th, 2007 at 12:19 pmYou apparently think you haven’t had a single American citizen in office to date.
Comment by Kilo
You really need to study logic, dude. That’s a totally irrationaly statement. Makes no sense whatsoever, once you look at it closer.
Hey, Kilo, your mom needs her clothes back. She has to go to work. Someone has to pay for the Twinkiehuffer in the basement.
June 8th, 2007 at 12:27 pmWhat kind of sick people defend the kidnapping of women and children because they are related to alleged terrorism suspects.
From the Philly Enquierer story: In five instances, the report says, U.S. authorities detained the wives or young children of suspects held in secret prisons. And in four instances, terror suspects in U.S. custody may have been transferred to Libya, once a major U.S. adversary.
Beyond disgusting.
June 8th, 2007 at 12:28 pmSo why was my COMMENT deleted????
Heil Hitler!!!!
June 8th, 2007 at 12:52 pmYou again with your lame arse “can you prove something” crap.
Once again proof is required for something that you could learn from ANY and EVERY account of what is being discussed that you can’t be bothered reading. So instead you’d rather stick with ignorance until someone who couldn’t care less forces you not to.
There is no researched account of CIA renditions that doesn’t tell you these were established under Clinton. But I guess that would necessitate proving that Clinton was in power under Clinton, which no doubt you managed to not read about back then either.
That might sound ridiculous, but recall that Clinton was only in power for 8 years. Reporting about the rendition program and it’s origins has been going on for 6.
This is the #1 search result on Google for “Renditions-program origins”. Usually a good place to start.
In this case it is the head of the CIA’s Alec Station, AKA Bin Laden Unit, who’s the one guy you could have heard many many times talking about his own use of the program.
Another obvious option via the same “search engine” would be to simply “search” for the words Extraordinary Rendition.
The first result there is the Wikipedia entry, which gives you sources for every claim made as well as extensive external references.
The second result is the most thorough account of the renditions program published to date and the most cited, hence it’s google ranking.
You may remember “Google” from our previous discussion on whether there was proof Iraqis were invovled in Iraqi oil smuggling, in Iraq. You know, how it can find you 1000s of articles on the topics you want proof of the existance of and how the links it provides are clickable.
June 8th, 2007 at 1:01 pmStill works like that.
Unlike you, I don’t work on Saturdays. Especially not on a long weekend.
Translated = I got nothin.
Heh.
I’ll probably the same as I do now. As though it doesn’t effect me, anyone I know or would ever be likely to meet for the rest of my life. Same as you.
June 8th, 2007 at 1:09 pmCome to think of it I should probably have stronger feelings about the Estate Tax since this is more relevant in this regard.
Kilo,
June 8th, 2007 at 1:14 pmWhomever does it dem or rep, its wrong! Clinton’s ER may, at least, have been carefully executed, no Arars or anything. That doesn’t excuse it but its interesting that many RW will swear up and down Clinton did nothing, has no balls, etc. and then come to find out otherwise.
No it’s not and yes they are.
I live on the other side of the planet without cable or 24/7 news. If they’re covered well enough for me they sure as shit are for the US public.
NYT all the way down to some of the litte regional US papers have more world news coverage than our national papers do. You do not have a lack of news coverage in the US.
Either way, the amount of coverage doesn’t dictate whether the viewer cares or not. The viewer does.
Just like the appalling lack of knowledge of foreign geography isn’t down to US kids getting globes of the world with less countries written on them than everyone else. They just don’t care what is written there.
June 8th, 2007 at 1:21 pmThat one. Their existance doesn’t imply they meet this objective though.
You could refer people to Focus on The Family for family planning help or Swift Boat Vets for Truth for facts about Kerry with the same degree of usefulness.
Seriously, what are you asking ? Recommend a different international court that hasn’t prosecuted anyone from any genocide campaign in the last 60 years that some lesser charge could be referred to ?
Why don’t you do it. File some papers. Build a case. You’ll prosecute anyone you want prosecuted before the Hague does.
June 8th, 2007 at 1:31 pmThey just don’t care what is written there.
Comment by Kilo
It is called propaganda. It begins at a very young age. What Spudge says is right.
Commies = bad. We = good.
Terrorists = bad. We = good.
Europeans = bad. We = good.
It is not about coverage.
June 8th, 2007 at 1:32 pmJust like the appalling lack of knowledge of foreign geography isn’t down to US kids getting globes of the world with less countries written on them than everyone else. They just don’t care what is written there.
Comment by Kilo — June 8, 2007 @ 1:21 pm
I’ve read all (I believe) of your posts on this thread and so far it doesn’t seem that you have a postition on this issue. Your posts have been limited to (paraphrased) “human rights violations of this sort have been happening all along, so they don’t really upset me.” If you have previously established your postition, please point me to it, otherwise, can you please take one?
June 8th, 2007 at 1:36 pm“Well in that case I can’t see why Swarzenegger should be prevented from running for President. You apparently think you haven’t had a single American citizen in office to date.
Comment by Kilo — June 8, 2007 @ 12:19 pmâ€
You are fempto (1e-15) not kilo (1e3), because your brain is smaller than a micron……
I understand why the right keeps argueing ignorant s$it…. Because they are ignorant……
Because YOU are unable to think and comprehend beyond a 1year old….. I’ll break it down for your tiny mind….
1) Try speaking, or in this case typing, in a COHERENT manner!!!! Your jumbling and non-constructive comments are about as sensable as a baby going “googooo gaaaa gaaaaâ€.
2) The comment you IGNORANTLY commented on above is not LITERAL you MORON!!!! Try using that thing on your sholders for something other than a receptical for a penis.
Those people who support torture of killing do not hold the values that America was built on and made this ONCE GREAT nation what it was before 2000. Anyone who accepts torcher or killing is not an American because the American values and the Constitution FORBID it.
Now crawl back under your rock, schools over as it’s time for your nappie!!!
Comment by RemoveBush — June 8, 2007 @ 12:31 pm
Since this one was deleted…… And becasue of what????
I take this to be worse language than anything I stated here….
“The Mothafuking President of the Mothafuking United States of Mothafuking America
Comment by Mr. President — June 8, 2007 @ 1:21 pm”
June 8th, 2007 at 1:37 pmUnless someone is waiting to see how a Perot presidency with an independant congress will handle this the question is pretty much settled.
Comment by Kilo — June 8, 2007 @ 11:18 am
I disagree with this. There are several new factors at play with American politics. For one, Bush and his neocon thugs, awoke many lethargic people, me included. Blogs too, have had an impact on keeping certain features that otherwise would have been ignored, alive. The gonzo case in point.
June 8th, 2007 at 1:39 pmHe said: “So ANYONE who does [torture] or supports it is NOT AN AMERICAN! PERIOD.”
There’s really only one supporter that matters. The commander in chief of the CIA and the Pentagon.
So can you name the last Pesident who didn’t preside over the use and propogation of torture and human rights violations by the US ?
Because it would seem Arnie’s getting kind of a raw deal being disallowed from running for president as a non-American if no other president in your lifetime or that of your father and grandfather met that condition either.
June 8th, 2007 at 1:43 pm“He said: “So ANYONE who does [torture] or supports it is NOT AN AMERICAN! PERIOD.â€
There’s really only one supporter that matters. The commander in chief of the CIA and the Pentagon.
So can you name the last Pesident who didn’t preside over the use and propogation of torture and human rights violations by the US ?
Because it would seem Arnie’s getting kind of a raw deal being disallowed from running for president as a non-American if no other president in your lifetime or that of your father and grandfather met that condition either.
Comment by Kilo — June 8, 2007 @ 1:43 pm”
DUDE!!!! Stop commenting on something YOU have no idea about!!!!!!
I just love it when someone who “live on the other side of the planet” tries to tell someone who actually has lived in this country all their lifes what is what about this country….
The IGNORANCE is just pouring out of you fempto…..
June 8th, 2007 at 1:50 pmSo TP……
Why are you deleting my posts???????
Can someone at least answer this simple little question????
June 8th, 2007 at 2:05 pmIf that were the case that would make two of us.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:40 pmIf that were the case that would make two of us.
Comment by /Kilo — June 8, 2007 @ 2:40 pm
The difference being that I haven’t been “discussing” the topic at hand for the past 3.5 hours.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:48 pmExcept it’s you that’s opted to avoid answering a question about the US in order to avoid displaying your ignorance…
So can you name the last Pesident who didn’t preside over the use and propogation of torture and human rights violations by the US ?
We can assume your ignorance is on display by you not being able to answer this.
Were you going to tell us what the guy on the other side of the planet was ignorant about or can we just assume this was merely a distraction so you could exit the discussion ?
June 8th, 2007 at 2:50 pmYeah. That’s what I just said.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:52 pmYeah. That’s what I just said.
Comment by Kilo — June 8, 2007 @ 2:52 pm
Ok, if you won’t start, I am against torture by the United States or the export of prisoners to countries where they will be tortured. Your turn.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:55 pmKilo – I read your nonresponsive responses. Sophistry doesn’t go over very well with me. Nor does begging the question. If you wish to portray yourself as being intelligent, you’re going to have to answer the questions that were asked, and support your arguments. Links to google does not equal links to credible sites.
A persuasive argument does not rest in waiting for the opposing side to prove you correct. You must do that yourself. And you have failed to do so.
And you have demonstrated total ignorance on contemporary international bodies which have been created to deal with international crimes. You could have found them with a google search. I’ve attended on-site seminars in some of them.
June 8th, 2007 at 3:37 pmOh right. Well to answer your initial query the reason you don’t see me stating such a position is the same as you don’t see it from anyone else. You kind of look slow declaring you don’t like torture in a thread about torture.
My position is though that I won’t pretend that this is something new, unexpected or contrary to common conduct of the US. That something significant is going to change in 2008.
Kudos on making no distinction between use of proxy agents to conduct the same illegal programs too. This is the reasoning I have for having no objection to Bush’s NSA domestic surveillence program, once again on an issue that I gave a shit about before Bush took office.
In both cases if you’re happy to convince yourself that Bush is responsible for the use of these programs and that something will change when his residence does, then you’re really just opposed to Bush. Because that is all that is going to change.
Case in point: School of the Americas.
Every President since WW2 approved of its operation or it still wouldn’t exist today.
This is who you are.
You’re doing nothing more useful talking about impeaching Bush for running torture programs (where to his credit, his disappeared prisoners reappear outisde of mass graves) than you would have been talking about impeaching Clinton for the same thing.
These figures haven’t done anything where you can declare “this is not the US” suddenly applies. These guys are steering it but the ship is the ship.
Illegal invasions, exploiting resource rich underdeveloped countries, imperialism through military presence, insane detrimental and counterproductive foreign policy, human rights abuses, disregard for the rest of the world, killing hundreds of thousands of dark skinned civilians, making yourselves a target for reprisal attacks.
This isn’t new ground. This is basically your resume if you bother reading any military history. So quit kidding yourselves already.
If what you’ve resolved to change in this equation is Bush, and he’s leaving anyway, then you’ve resolved to change nothing other than what you’re willing to be honest about.
June 8th, 2007 at 3:43 pmSo did everyone else.
If they were unaware of the same things you were they clicked the links I provided and got all the info they needed.
As we know you don’t roll like that and will now bitch at lenth about how providing you with sources you ask for isn’t good enough. How it is the responsiblity of one person on the internet to provide you proof of something that is common knowledge and you would already know if you had ever bothered to read a single news story about a topic you pretend to have an interest in.
We did this already. It’ll be as boring and pointless as it was the last time so take your whining arse out of here and either educate yourself or don’t. Neither outcome interests me.
June 8th, 2007 at 3:53 pmIf what you’ve resolved to change in this equation is Bush, and he’s leaving anyway, then you’ve resolved to change nothing other than what you’re willing to be honest about.
Comment by Kilo — June 8, 2007 @ 3:43 pm
I agree, there are too many who are more passionate about removing Bush from his throne than from ending his inhuman practices. I won’t pretend that the United States before Bush was above reproach when it comes to foreign policy. However, rather than simply resigning yourself to “Who Cares? Its always been this way.” and putting down people who actually take positions against what they see as wrong, maybe you should be confronting some of the Americans who support torture and other such things. That is unless you are also for torture…you haven’t actually said yet.
June 8th, 2007 at 5:15 pmHas the United States acted in the last 8 years as blatantly as it did in the 8 years before? How many terrorists were kept and tortured before 2001? That’s the thing, most country’s have shady actions that they will undertake in specific DESPERATE situations, but when the shady actions become the norm, then your country loses its standing in the world.
June 8th, 2007 at 10:04 pmThis angers me, not because I think being the hegemon is the most important thing in the world, but because I think there is a lot of good that can be done in the world. Bush has even realized that, and his PEPFAR program is a good start. We can stop world hunger and the advance of AIDS for around 40 billion dollars a year (see borgenproject.org), but not if countries hate us and don’t want our help. This is what I find angering about Bush’s actions. You talk to regular joes in other countries pre-Bush, most of them have a good impression of the US. Now…. not so much. In some places that anger is restricted to Bush, but in others it has spilled over to Americans in general, and I think that’s sad.