New Joint Chiefs Nominee: ‘This War Is Going To Go On For A Long Time. It’s A Generational War’
New Joint Chiefs Nominee: ‘This War Is Going To Go On For A Long Time. It’s A Generational War’
Defense Secretary Robert Gates announced today that Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Peter Pace, the highest-ranking U.S. military official, is being replaced by Navy Adm. Mike Mullen.
Pace is the first Joint Chiefs Chairman not to be renominated for a second term since the military was centralized under the joint chiefs position 21 years ago. The selection of Mullen also marks the first time in 21 years that both the head of the Joint Chiefs and the CentCom Commander, Adm. William Fallon, have been Navy officers.
Some insight on Mullen can be gained from a speech he gave to sailors in Pearl Harbor in Feb. 2007:
In his opening remarks, Mullen, a Vietnam War veteran, told Pearl Harbor sailors: “I honestly believe this is the most dangerous time in my life.
“The enemy now is basically evil and fundamentally hates everything we are — the democratic principles for which we stand … This war is going to go on for a long time. It’s a generational war.”
From a Feb. 2006 interview with Mullen:
You use the term ‘Long War’, and it’s important to understand that and really grab this issue because it is going to be around for a significant amount of time. I call it generational. That said, there are still traditional capabilities that are very much required.
When Fallon was appointed in January to lead CentCom, analysts noted the choice of a Navy officer reflected “a greater emphasis on countering Iranian power, a mission that relies heavily on naval forces and combat airpower to project American influence in the Persian Gulf.” In announcing the nomination of Mullen this afternoon, CNN Pentagon correspondent Barbara Starr said that Mullen “watches Iran closely.”
UPDATE: Mullen has indicated he is against a permanent presence in Iraq. “I’ve tried to couch the future discussion, and I’ve looked at it over many months now, is what are we going to do after Iraq? What are we going to do after Afghanistan? And I truly believe we will bring those forces home. I’m not standing here today to predict exactly when that will occur.”
UPDATE II: Cernig has much more:
It seems plain to me that Mullen is being brought forward, in part, to clean house for Gates and consolidate his position at Defense by sweeping out all the old Rumsfield hangovers. That won’t please Cheney, who was always the closest to Rummie in White house circles as the two of them headed the neocon cabal.
UPDATE III: A strong statement out from Sen. Chris Dodd (D-CT):
While I have deep respect for Admiral Mullen’s distinguished service, his view that this is a ‘generational war’ will not do anything to change course in Iraq. If we want to bring an end to our involvement in this civil war, we must do more than simply replace personnel — we must replace President Bush’s failed policy. Today’s move underscores the need for Congress to speak with clarity and adopt a firm, enforceable deadline for the redeployment of combat troops out of Iraq.
UPDATE IV: Here’s Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-NV):
Senators will be looking very closely at Admiral Mullen and General Cartwright’s views to make sure they are committed to changing course in Iraq. Both men must be advocates for our troops, not for a failed policy. It will require strong leadership to transition the U.S. mission in Iraq so our troops are not policing an Iraqi civil war. They must also refocus on the resurgence of Al Qaeda, rebuild the readiness of the United States military, and fix major problems with the delivery of health care to our troops and veterans.
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A long and unnecessary war.
June 8th, 2007 at 1:30 pmA long and EXPANDING war..
June 8th, 2007 at 1:32 pmHere comes the Admiral stooge now. Wants endless war in the Middle East. Thanks Bushie for giving us another fool to run the military.
June 8th, 2007 at 1:32 pmI think they are trying to say "this is just the beginning.."
June 8th, 2007 at 1:33 pmIf this is the most dangerous time, where are the calls for sacrifice and a draft?
June 8th, 2007 at 1:34 pm“I honestly believe this is the most dangerous time in my life.
Then run!! run!!!. Hehehehe.
“The enemy now is basically evil and fundamentally hates everything we are — the democratic principles for which we stand … â€
Oh, I forgot my dose of Wall Street Journal Ed´s propaganda. No content, but it really makes me feel good.
Basically evil... my sweet goodness, what a great, deep and insightful argument.
June 8th, 2007 at 1:35 pmToo bad none of this is covered by the mass media news. There would be rioting in the streets.
June 8th, 2007 at 1:36 pmanyone who has a belief that this war was not going to be long is a fool,
June 8th, 2007 at 1:36 pmLike the war on Drugs any of you foolish liberals old enough to remember Lyndon Johnson's Speech on " The Great Society War on Poverty " ? well its been 42 yrs. since then and we all know that there is no Poverty in this Country . If you want the war stopped there are two ways to do it . Win it or Surrender , choose the latter and you may not like what happens .
Never mind - I just read this:
“The enemy now is basically evil and fundamentally hates everything we are — the democratic principles for which we stand … This war is going to go on for a long time. It’s a generational war.â€
From a Feb. 2006 interview with Mullen:
You use the term ‘Long War’, and it’s important to understand that and really grab this issue because it is going to be around for a significant amount of time. I call it generational. That said, there are still traditional capabilities that are very much required
God help us all !
June 8th, 2007 at 1:36 pmjuan c you do live with your mommy and daddy don't you ?
June 8th, 2007 at 1:38 pmthe perpetual war for perpetual peace continues unabated.
Their absolute arrogance shows with these kinds of pronouncements, and convinces me that they know there's no opposition or anti-war politicians in government - well, at least not enough to change their plans.
This militarism must be stopped for us to have peace and prosperity.
Some related reading:
June 8th, 2007 at 1:38 pm"Wars and Debts and Taxes, Oh My!"
http://www.populistamerica.com/wars_and_debts_and_taxes_oh_my
War without end...
June 8th, 2007 at 1:40 pmSpudge_Boy Are you Telling us that The Liberal Media refuses to Cover something that concerns you that is important enough to cause riots in the streets ? can I have some of what you are smoking ? I me really that funny
June 8th, 2007 at 1:41 pm“The enemy now is basically evil and fundamentally hates everything we are — the democratic principles for which we stand … This war is going to go on for a long time. It’s a generational war.â€
I don't like him already.
Our enemies don't hate us because of our democratic principles, they hate us for our policies.
June 8th, 2007 at 1:42 pmVerbalKint so you are trying to tell us that you are smart enough to know what is unnecessary ?
June 8th, 2007 at 1:42 pmHow romantic and full of tingly imagery!
Wow endless occupation based on a War on Terror bumper sticker!
June 8th, 2007 at 1:43 pmI wished these children would stop their pissing match with Iran. These recalcitrant Generals were just young pukes when Iran embassy fell, beginning the hostage crisis. They are still harboring their Ill will for that, trying to get us all killed in the process. Bastards.
June 8th, 2007 at 1:44 pmtranslate to - as long as we need oil war...
June 8th, 2007 at 1:45 pmWhat happened to all the this is a short war, a couple of months, troops home blah blah etc? Was that a lie?
June 8th, 2007 at 1:45 pmZooey they hate you because you are not muslin and wearing one of those black bags over yourself and escorted by 2 male family members when you leave the house . convert to muslin and you will have peace.
June 8th, 2007 at 1:45 pmjuan c you do live with your mommy and daddy don’t you ?
Comment by Harry Truman
If I answer yes, would OBL be caught and those WMDs be found ? ;)
June 8th, 2007 at 1:46 pmtesting ...... testing ........ is this thing on???
Can anyone hear me??
June 8th, 2007 at 1:47 pmIt's a big middle finger to those who think this war needs to end. Instead, they're bringing in more and more people who adamantly and sincerely believe that we're in some great cultural war that will last for decades. Not only that, but they continue to echo the crap about 'they hate us for our freedom!'. The same crap we heard thousands of times before. It's unbudging...and sadly, it may never change at this rate, because those who have the power to push toward real chance don't have the spine for it.
Not to mention the entire assumption that 'our enemies are simply evil and hate us' that alleviates all blame from our side. After all, how can you fault a war against EEEEEEEEVIIIIIIIL?!!!
June 8th, 2007 at 1:48 pmIs he saying that RUMSFELD LIED TO US?? Shock!
June 8th, 2007 at 1:49 pmshropshire the smart one . what do you think that iran will do with an atomic bomb ? you do realize that these people look forward to dying for their shit god where as you would not give your life to save zooey
June 8th, 2007 at 1:49 pmZooey, you are right on the money. They may also really hate us now for blowing up their countries and killing their friends and families (and stealing their oil).
June 8th, 2007 at 1:50 pm"It’s A Generational War"
Oh no the fu(k it isn't!
June 8th, 2007 at 1:51 pmKrazny who said anything about this being a short war . no one you dummy
June 8th, 2007 at 1:51 pmZooey is percale - and of very high thread count.
June 8th, 2007 at 1:54 pmUh lets see Dick Cheney, Paul Wofowitz, Donald Rumsfeld I think I can find the links to the exact quotes if you like.
June 8th, 2007 at 1:54 pmwhat do you call people who believe that dyingand killing for their religion is most important than anything and hoping that their children do the same the first suicide bomberthat blew his self up in the 12 yr iraq iran war was 15 yrs. old . you are a fool and know nothing .
June 8th, 2007 at 1:54 pmBush likes Admirals for some weird reason. I guess since the Navy is needed to bomb the crap out of Iran he must reward the Admirals. Vietnam war was big on Admirals too. Sen. John McCain's father was the big cheese Admiral for Vietnam conflict.
June 8th, 2007 at 1:54 pmAre all of you happy now?
June 8th, 2007 at 1:56 pmZooey they hate you because you are not muslin and wearing one of those black bags over yourself and escorted by 2 male family members when you leave the house . convert to muslin and you will have peace.
Comment by Harry Truman
I don't think things will get any better if I convert into a fabric.
June 8th, 2007 at 1:56 pmWow, I guess Pace was a little to principled and honest for the Bush Crime Family. Oh well, it's just one more reason not to vote for any Republic in the next election.
June 8th, 2007 at 1:56 pmalways nice to admit you are a psychopath. in this adminstration it is a positively glowing recommendation
June 8th, 2007 at 1:57 pmcan congress say no to this cripple?
Gosh, if it's going to be a "generational war", don't you think it should, at a minimum, be declared so by Congress? If it is not, doesn't that make it just some sort of struggle or jihad or something?
The fastest way to end this war is through impeachment; let's get it started already!
June 8th, 2007 at 1:57 pmOther than "Mission Accomplished", and "Last throes of the insurgency", and the rank posturing we do as "Liberators". I'd cite others, if I could see through all of the flower petals the grateful Iraqi's have strewn about.
June 8th, 2007 at 1:57 pmit will be if we don't start fighting it in smarter ways...
June 8th, 2007 at 1:58 pmZooey, you are right on the money. They may also really hate us now for blowing up their countries and killing their friends and families (and stealing their oil).
Comment by JG
I should have said they hated us at the beginning for our policies -- but now they hate us for so much more.
June 8th, 2007 at 1:58 pmIf you want the war stopped there are two ways to do it . Win it or Surrender , choose the latter and you may not like what happens .
Comment by Harry Truman — June 8, 2007 @ 1:36 pm
How does a country surrender to an abstract concept, exactly?
June 8th, 2007 at 1:59 pmZooey is percale - and of very high thread count.
Comment by smafdy
Absolutely. I converted from a lower thread count years ago. :-D
June 8th, 2007 at 2:00 pmGod you People are Stupid Lets go over the List again . Children I hate going over and over this lesson again and again to say this is about oil is stupid
1979
Nov. 4, Tehran, Iran: Iranian radical students seized the U.S. embassy, taking 66 hostages. 14 were later released. The remaining 52 were freed after 444 days on the day of President Reagan's inauguration.
1982–1991
Lebanon: Thirty US and other Western hostages kidnapped in Lebanon by Hezbollah. Some were killed, some died in captivity, and some were eventually released. Terry Anderson was held for 2,454 days.
1983
April 18, Beirut, Lebanon: U.S. embassy destroyed in suicide car-bomb attack; 63 dead, including 17 Americans. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.
Oct. 23, Beirut, Lebanon: Shiite suicide bombers exploded truck near U.S. military barracks at Beirut airport, killing 241 marines. Minutes later a second bomb killed 58 French paratroopers in their barracks in West Beirut.
Dec. 12, Kuwait City, Kuwait: Shiite truck bombers attacked the U.S. embassy and other targets, killing 5 and injuring 80.
1984
Sept. 20, east Beirut, Lebanon: truck bomb exploded outside the U.S. embassy annex, killing 24, including 2 U.S. military.
Dec. 3, Beirut, Lebanon: Kuwait Airways Flight 221, from Kuwait to Pakistan, hijacked and diverted to Tehran. 2 Americans killed.
1985
April 12, Madrid, Spain: Bombing at restaurant frequented by U.S. soldiers, killed 18 Spaniards and injured 82.
June 14, Beirut, Lebanon: TWA Flight 847 en route from Athens to Rome hijacked to Beirut by Hezbollah terrorists and held for 17 days. A U.S. Navy diver executed.
Oct. 7, Mediterranean Sea: gunmen attack Italian cruise ship, Achille Lauro. One U.S. tourist killed. Hijacking linked to Libya.
Dec. 18, Rome, Italy, and Vienna, Austria: airports in Rome and Vienna were bombed, killing 20 people, 5 of whom were Americans. Bombing linked to Libya.
1986
April 2, Athens, Greece:A bomb exploded aboard TWA flight 840 en route from Rome to Athens, killing 4 Americans and injuring 9.
April 5, West Berlin, Germany: Libyans bombed a disco frequented by U.S. servicemen, killing 2 and injuring hundreds.
1988
Dec. 21, Lockerbie, Scotland: N.Y.-bound Pan-Am Boeing 747 exploded in flight from a terrorist bomb and crashed into Scottish village, killing all 259 aboard and 11 on the ground. Passengers included 35 Syracuse University students and many U.S. military personnel. Libya formally admitted responsibility 15 years later (Aug. 2003) and offered $2.7 billion compensation to victims' families.
1993
Feb. 26, New York City: bomb exploded in basement garage of World Trade Center, killing 6 and injuring at least 1,040 others. In 1995, militant Islamist Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and 9 others were convicted of conspiracy charges, and in 1998, Ramzi Yousef, believed to have been the mastermind, was convicted of the bombing. Al-Qaeda involvement is suspected.
1996
June 25, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia: truck bomb exploded outside Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds of others. 13 Saudis and a Lebanese, all alleged members of Islamic militant group Hezbollah, were indicted on charges relating to the attack in June 2001.
1998
Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213 in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. 4 men connected with al-Qaeda 2 of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside Afghanistan, were convicted of the killings in May 2001 and later sentenced to life in prison. A federal grand jury had indicted 22 men in connection with the attacks, including Saudi dissident Osama bin Laden, who remained at large.
2000
Oct. 12, Aden, Yemen: U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole heavily damaged when a small boat loaded with explosives blew up alongside it. 17 sailors killed. Linked to Osama bin Laden, or members of al-Qaeda terrorist network.
2001
Sept. 11, New York City, Arlington, Va., and Shanksville, Pa.: hijackers crashed 2 commercial jets into twin towers of World Trade Center; 2 more hijacked jets were crashed into the Pentagon and a field in rural Pa. Total dead and missing numbered 2,9921: 2,749 in New York City, 184 at the Pentagon, 40 in Pa., and 19 hijackers. Islamic al-Qaeda terrorist group blamed. (See September 11, 2001: Timeline of Terrorism.)
2002
June 14, Karachi, Pakistan: bomb exploded outside American consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12. Linked to al-Qaeda.
2003
May 12, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: suicide bombers killed 34, including 8 Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners. Al-Qaeda suspected.
2004
May 29–31, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists attack the offices of a Saudi oil company in Khobar, Saudi Arabia, take foreign oil workers hostage in a nearby residential compound, leaving 22 people dead including one American.
June 11–19, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists kidnap and execute Paul Johnson Jr., an American, in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. 2 other Americans and BBC cameraman killed by gun attacks.
Dec. 6, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia: terrorists storm the U.S. consulate, killing 5 consulate employees. 4 terrorists were killed by Saudi security.
2005
Nov. 9, Amman, Jordan: Suicide bombers hit 3 American hotels, Radisson, Grand Hyatt, and Days Inn, in Amman, Jordan, killing 57. Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility.
2006
Sept. 13, Damascus, Syria: an attack by four gunman on the American embassy was foiled.
2007
June 8th, 2007 at 2:00 pmJan. 12, Athens, Greece: the U.S. embassy was fired on by an anti-tank missile causing damage but no injuries.
back on pace for a moment:
well -- in an ETHICAL, moral, administration,
one might expect that writing, on official military
stationary, in SUPPORT of a convicted perjurer, and
justic obstructor in a case involving national
security, and the leaking of ocert c.i.a. asset
identites, would get the general CANNED.
but in THIS administration, it SHOULD have
been enough to save his neck from the axe. . .
so -- color me puzzled. . .
but if -- if his scooter letter
June 8th, 2007 at 2:00 pmaccurately reflects gen. peter pace's
ability to judge character, we may safely
assume that nothing in iraq is going to
improve significantly, without a change
of administrations. that is to say, if he
feels that serving "the united states govern-
ment extremely well on national security
issues" includes perjury, and obstruction of
justice [note that the letter is dated after
scooter's conviction!] -- then i am reasonably
certain gen. pace was unfit for his current role. . .
Are all of you happy now?
Comment by CompTROLLER V-1
I had sex a week ago. So no. :D
June 8th, 2007 at 2:00 pmBush is replacing military brass with ugly guys > just look at the pic of the Admiral. He looks like some guy who owns a run-down hardware store. He must be an old pal of Darth Dicky Cheney > lol.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:00 pmNOW they tell us.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:00 pmFew things offend me more than when someone tells me what's "evil".
June 8th, 2007 at 2:01 pmI always considered myself a litlle paisley
June 8th, 2007 at 2:01 pmI believe it's the most dangerous time in my life as well...watching general after general knuckle under and tow the line for these scumbags when they should be surrounding the White house with tanks and dragging them out in chains...
June 8th, 2007 at 2:01 pmshropshire the smart one . what do you think that iran will do with an atomic bomb ? you do realize that these people look forward to dying for their shit god where as you would not give your life to save zooey
Comment by Harry Truman — June 8, 2007 @ 1:49 pm
You do realize that their "shit god" is also yours (if you're Christian or Jewish), right?
June 8th, 2007 at 2:01 pmA War based on Lies. Lies based on Greed. Greed based on Hegemony.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:03 pmFrom Wikipedia:
Muslin is a type of finely-woven cotton fabric, introduced to Europe from the Middle East in the 17th century. Its first recorded use in England was in 1670. It was named for the city where Europeans first encountered it, Mosul, in what is now Iraq, but the fabric actually originated from Dhaka in what is now Bangladesh.
See, Iraqi Terrists have been infiltrating the very fabric of our society for over 300 years!!!
June 8th, 2007 at 2:06 pmWhat god?
June 8th, 2007 at 2:06 pmFew things offend me more than when someone tells me what’s “evilâ€.
Comment by LandSurveyor
You just hit it.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:07 pmYou left out the Oklahoma city bombing, The ETA attacks in Spain, the IRA attacks in the UK, and so much more. You also left out the part, where Christian european countries controlled the middle east as colonies from 1918- 1950. then forced them to accept a country they hate. Do you think history started in 1979? They still hate us for the crusades, and those were over 500 years ago.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:08 pmOh, and Zooey can fend for herself just friggin fine!
June 8th, 2007 at 2:08 pmso does ANYONE see my posts???
Please let me know.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:08 pmHitler would constantly remove Generals, or move them around, so Bush is afraid of a military coup against him. Which is why he removes any officer who appears to be a threat to him. Bush only wants military brass who will do his bidding without asking questions.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:09 pmHmm... First it was "It's going to be a quick war" Then it was "We've got to see it through" Then it was "If we leave, they win" Then it was "We have to stay long enough to do SOME good" Now it's "It's a generational war. We have no choice." Sounds a helluva lot like denial to me.
Of course we have a choice. Everyone wants us out but the Bush administration. I just don't see the problem. It's not like it's going to get any LESS embarassing as time goes on and nothing gets done.
And if they follow us home, sic the NY and Chicago PD on them. They wont last a week.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:10 pmHarry Truman, if you are so interested in historical perspectives, then you should read "Power, Faith, and Fantasy" by Michael B. Oren in order to have a better understanding and maybe break out of your one dimensional thinking. Nothing is that simple or cut and dried. There is no such thing as "good guys" and "bad guys". If you don't have an understanding of all sides and perspectives and a clear understanding of history, you will never find any real solutions.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:12 pmTurning the US into an authoritarian police state is hard work, and will take a long time, but that's why we need this war. We will have won when all our precious freedoms are gone. Halleluja.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:13 pmComment by geoman77 — June 8, 2007 @ 2:06 pm
Ha! Very good!
June 8th, 2007 at 2:13 pmIt's about Gotdammed time sumbudy spoke like this Harry Truman feller. We all need to stand up to them before we stand down over here. Git them where there sleeping and even before they turn inta more terrists.
We all need to here the call of our leeder and join up. Tell ya what Harry (I hopes I kin calls ya by yer first name) I'll come pick ya up and we'll both join.
Just tell me where ya live and I'm there.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:13 pmMullen's right. I wish he wasn't, but he is.
And there is nothing that you Quislings can do about it.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:14 pmWhen genocide, oppression, murder, torture, and imperialism become a "generational" agenda, it is not at all inappropriate to invoke the "nazi" comparison.
In fact, it would be irresponsible to NOT make such a comparison in that to not do so would indicate that the lessons theoretically learned were, in fact, not.
Fcuk the cowards (trolls who claim to be presidents) and the fools (politicians of both stripes), it is time to storm Washington DC.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:14 pmComment by Juan C
Sex Addicts Anonymous (SAA) should be perfect for you.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:15 pmOh, and Zooey can fend for herself just friggin fine!
Comment by prof shropshire
You know it, babes. ;)
June 8th, 2007 at 2:15 pmHitler would constantly remove Generals, or move them around, so Bush is afraid of a military coup against him. Which is why he removes any officer who appears to be a threat to him. Bush only wants military brass who will do his bidding without asking questions.
-------------
You forgot the golden rule: The value of a thread is proportional to the time that passes without comparing something to Hitler :)
June 8th, 2007 at 2:16 pmso does ANYONE see my posts???
Please let me know.
Comment by RemoveBush
I see this one -- and a couple on other threads.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:17 pmYou should email Faiz directly and ask for an explanation for the deletions.
"Hmm… First it was “It’s going to be a quick war†Then it was “We’ve got to see it through†Then it was “If we leave, they win†Then it was “We have to stay long enough to do SOME good†Now it’s “It’s a generational war. We have no choice.†Sounds a helluva lot like denial to me."
They are just words meant to gain support and pacify the masses while they continue marching along with their original plan that is kept secret. Everything is setup to put pacify for a short period of time and suspend changing anything until the next time they need to show progress. The words are only a tool. A flim-flam.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:17 pmswordsbane > Bush is Hitlerian in his thinking. Does not mean he will gas the Jews or some other group. Some comparisons are valid, because Bush is an out-of-control fascistic moron.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:19 pmSex Addicts Anonymous (SAA) should be perfect for you.
Comment by CompTROLLER V-1
Why? Because he had sex a week ago? Get real -- or get some...
June 8th, 2007 at 2:21 pmThe enemy now is basically evil and fundamentally hates everything we are — the democratic principles for which we stand … This war is going to go on for a long time. It’s a generational war.
So really, what they've done is so outrageous that they HAVE to back it up with bullsh*t through the media that states that they really believe in what they're doing.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:21 pmI mean, what else can they do ?
And the media is there propping them up all along the way.
It is almost like they control, or think they control, this country through the msm.
I'm a little bit curious as to why a very wealthy group of decent people haven't created their own network that shoots holes in everything that is the garbage that it is on CNN, Fox etc.
I'm guessing it would get quite a few viewers.
Hey you dopes, Mullen is talking about the civilazational clash between the West and radical Islam, not the current war in Iraq, which is simply one front in a much larger conflict which will last for a generation or more.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:24 pm#59,
I disagree with your premise in that the change in JCS is a "punitive" or "political" event.
I believe, and the facts tend to support this, that the move is a strategical one based upon an anticipated change in the "war theater". A quick geographical review of the Middle East and the African continent, and taking into consideration the blathering of the war-mongers and the corporate greed factor, one can see quite clearly why the aggression strategy would benefit from a weighted naval perspective.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:25 pm"I see this one — and a couple on other threads.
You should email Faiz directly and ask for an explanation for the deletions.
Comment by Zooey — June 8, 2007 @ 2:17 pm"
Thanks Zooey.....
It's not worth the email..... What I posted 2x was tame compared to another post by Mr. President, but this persons has remained and mine have dissapeared.....
There is nothing I can do about it, except to say that TP has become so censored that they should consider changing their name to censored progress.....
It's one thing if they were going to hold everyone to EQUAL standards, but they don't. I see worse from other posters, yet they are not censored.
I guess I will have to just forget about posting and wait for America to become worse than the USSR?????
When America and people within it selectively censor, then our country is TRUELY GONE!
June 8th, 2007 at 2:25 pmswordsbane > Bush is Hitlerian in his thinking. Does not mean he will gas the Jews or some other group. Some comparisons are valid, because Bush is an out-of-control fascistic moron.
Comment by Jay Randal — June 8, 2007 @ 2:19 pm
Then say "out of control facistic moron". Don't try to frighten people with the boogyeman. Bush is a dangerous man, either incompetent or truly evil. The people we need to listen to us switch off when you make a Hitler reference.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:26 pmGood Lord you people are stupid.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:26 pm#69,
Not at all true in this case. See my comment #66.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:26 pmComment by Zooey
Well that's your lousy assesment. If he's bragging about it on here, then he must seem compulsive about it. What, he can't go without it for a lousy week? Hey, I read an article about a widower who went without it for 30 years, thought it was his key to living longer (not that I'll take his advice, but still).
June 8th, 2007 at 2:30 pmJuan C when did liberals give a shit about Perjury ? I seem to remember a man who lied to a grand jury and you hypocrites supported him .
June 8th, 2007 at 2:30 pmanyone who has a belief that this war was not going to be long is a fool,
Like the war on Drugs any of you foolish liberals old enough to remember Lyndon Johnson’s Speech on †The Great Society War on Poverty †? well its been 42 yrs. since then and we all know that there is no Poverty in this Country . If you want the war stopped there are two ways to do it . Win it or Surrender , choose the latter and you may not like what happens .
Comment by Harry Truman — June 8, 2007 @ 1:36 pm
So, let me get this straight. Dumb fu*k here brings up too failures for why we should keep on with the Iraq failure. I don't care if the first two were democratic failures, because I would have voted aginst both and done everything I could to stop the first two failures, because I could have told you they were going to fail just as miserably befor they were started just like I knew the war on terror is and will be a failure.
So, why was bringing up the failed war on drugs and war on poverty important?
Oh yeah, Clinton did it.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:31 pmswordsbane > the trolls on here do not give a flip what I say or you say on here. Most visitors to this site stop reading the threads when Jake or m12 post their garbage.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:32 pm#74,
To control a "people" you must control their thoughts and beliefs.
Thoughts are controlled by manipulating the "message" and the content of the information that the people receive.
Beliefs are controlled by having government sanctioned "religion".
When you research into who is controlling and benefiting from the manipulation of the people, you will find that they are the same "folks" that you are curious as to why they aren't saving you from this disgrace and abomination.
I hope that clears things up for you.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:32 pm#69,
Not at all true in this case. See my comment #66.
Comment by Fed the Fcuk Up! — June 8, 2007 @ 2:26 pm
The only truly valid nazi-era reference is comparisons between the people of pre-nazi germany to the people in the USA today. They are/were both blind to the danger right in front of their faces, secure in the belief that it will not go "too far"
and if it does, I won't blame the Bush administration, because it won't be their fault.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:33 pmThis General scares me. He has that ideological thought of just good against evil and since we can't be evil we are on the side of right. As said earlier, it started out as a quick fight and it has evolved into this General's fight of his lifetime and the long struggle.
You don't just go to war with an army, you have to bring the whole country along and that cow left the barn a long time ago. They know they can't call for a draft because the opposition would be larger than anything this General has seen in his life.
So they'll continue squeezing the military, manhandling the ineffective congress and keep paying hired guns as well as the profiteers.
By the time the whole country wakes up (if they ever do) the cupboard will be bare.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:33 pmSpudge_Boy Are you Telling us that The Liberal Media refuses to Cover something that concerns you that is important enough to cause riots in the streets ? can I have some of what you are smoking ? I me really that funny
Comment by Harry Truman
Your immediate LIE, of course, "harry", is that the media is LIBERAL.
It's ALL corporate owned, and voted for Bush. You LIARS just keep on..
The TRUTH is that TRAITOR Bush the MURDERER coxucker PUNK moron
LIED to the US and the WORLD.
The "cakewalk" of six weeks is now FOUR YEARS heading to FIFTY...
Osama is STILL FREE almost SIX YEARS LATER, no links with Iraq...
Bush and his WAR CRIMINALS have committed TREASON---
From exposing CIA COVERT SPIES to LYING ABOUT WMD to POLITICING THE DOJ and ALL gov't agencies.
The ASSISTANT TO THE PRESIDENT, scooter libby, is a FELON...
Lynn Woolsey signed on to articles of impeachment, and calls for IMPEACHMENT will continue to GROW.
And EVEN IF 2/3 vote can't be achieved in the Senate (neither was Clinton convicted),
the INVESTIGATION and DISCOVERY OF EVIDENCE will find enough to send Bush and Cheney to JAIL for the REST OF THEIR SUBHUMAN LIVES.
God will send these MURDEROUS scumbags to hell from there,
for HE sees all, even if Dick Cheney tries to HIDE it here on earth.
See YOU in hell fake harry (cause I'LL be THERE, and so will YOU),
June 8th, 2007 at 2:34 pmMr. Bush
MURDEROUS WAR CRIMINAL
COWARDLY AWOL TRAITOR TO THE USA (TM--BushCrimeCo, Inc.)
The "war on drugs" and the "war on poverty" are poor examples...What we are engaged in now is more like the Cold War, only it's not cold.
And we don't get to decide how long it will last, the enemy does...unless, of course, you advocate surrender.
I might also add that the main front in this long struggle will be Europe in about ten years.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:37 pm"The enemy now is basically evil and fundamentally hates everything we are — the democratic principles for which we stand … "
If "they" hate democratic principles, then why does the US get all the blame while Canada gets a pass?
How is that fair?
June 8th, 2007 at 2:39 pm#86,
Precisely!
June 8th, 2007 at 2:39 pmSo they’ll continue squeezing the military, manhandling the ineffective congress and keep paying hired guns as well as the profiteers.
By the time the whole country wakes up (if they ever do) the cupboard will be bare.
Comment by hellinabucket — June 8, 2007 @ 2:33 pm
No, what's going to happen is they'll string everyone along, balancing incompetence with patriotic rhetoric and poking the 'bad people' with a stick until they get fed up and do something very big that hurts us like 9/11 dig (but probably worse), then that will be all the mandate they need to kick out the last freedoms that keep them from doing what they want as we shout at them to "Go Get the F**kers!" When we come to our senses, we will be required by law to support the party in power.
Classic.. and so far.. it's working.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:40 pmWell that’s your lousy assesment. If he’s bragging about it on here, then he must seem compulsive about it. What, he can’t go without it for a lousy week? Hey, I read an article about a widower who went without it for 30 years, thought it was his key to living longer (not that I’ll take his advice, but still).
Comment by CompTROLLER V-1
For heaven's sake, CT, Juan was making a joke.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:42 pm'This War Is Going To Go On For A Long Time. It’s A Generational War’
Not if we have anything to say about it, motherf*cker!
Ahhh, just what the MIC and neocon repugs want: A multi-generation war!
BTW, wasn't the Mission already Accomplished? Chimpy said so himself, all decked out in a flightsuit (complete with cod piece, and using an entire aircraft carrier & hundreds of GI's as a backdrop for a photo op....pathetic bastard).
June 8th, 2007 at 2:43 pm#92 / swordsbane:
Well said. Exactly!
June 8th, 2007 at 2:46 pmJuan C when did liberals give a shit about Perjury ? I seem to remember a man who lied to a grand jury and you hypocrites supported him .
Comment by Harry Truman
That's not true. We did not support the fact that Clinton lied.
And we do not support the fact that Bush lies more than any other person on this earth -- but YOU DO.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:46 pmTHIS IS EXTREMELY OMINOUS
I've been writing for over a year now that the Joint Chiefs have been blocking the White House's efforts to expand the war to Iran. This really is most disturbing.
Pace has been the most visible symbol of the push-back within the military against the Long War.
When Pace goes, and if there's a major shake-out of the Joint Chiefs, I am afraid that it's Impeachment or we're going to be losing more cities.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:47 pmSwordsbane, That and much more I'm afraid.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:52 pmAnd we don’t get to decide how long it will last, the enemy does…unless, of course, you advocate surrender.
Comment by Ringo — June 8, 2007 @ 2:37 pm
Again I ask - how does a country surrender to an abstract concept?
June 8th, 2007 at 2:52 pm"And we don’t get to decide how long it will last, the enemy does…unless, of course, you advocate surrender."
Could you please define for me exactly who the "enemy" is? I would really like to know. Could you explain WHY they are the enemy? I frankly am confused about who we are fighting and why. The reasons keep changing from month to month..
And, you don't get to use the words "the terrorists" because that isn't a country or an ideology. Terrorism is a tactic. How would you know who to surrender to? And, why would you call making smarter, wiser decisions that have a better chance at success at bringing peace, ending the destruction, and saving lives "surrender". I would define that as success.
Would you depend on this Administration to define who the bad guys are? After all the lies and breaking of laws, and circumventing and manipulating they have done? I for one don't believe any words they say or trust their motives in anything any more. They have caused damage to everything I believed and held dear about our country. They have used their own form of 'terror' on this country for almost 6 years now by manipulating the media and doing everything they can to keep the American people in fear (in order to manipulate their emotions and nake Americans willing to look the other way while they erode our rights and rob our National Treasury).
I for one am sick of this.
June 8th, 2007 at 2:54 pmLast long? Well duh, it's a permanent military occupation(!)
June 8th, 2007 at 2:55 pmWhy the enemy is anyone that dont think like Harry. Right Harry? Harry?
June 8th, 2007 at 3:04 pmComment by Zoeey
Sorry, I'm not great at detecting jokes.
June 8th, 2007 at 3:05 pmya, we will be there till the oil runs out
June 8th, 2007 at 3:06 pmSwordsbane, That and much more I’m afraid.
Comment by hellinabucket — June 8, 2007 @ 2:52 pm
Hey, I saw it coming when they changed the Posse Comitus act and took the state governors out of the chain of command and put the president and the commander of the National Guard right at the top with no oversight. In the process, they cut down on the number of people that have to sign off on a declaration of martial law to one person (and you only get one guess who) It wasn't two months after that that we had a knew commander of the National Guard installed by Bush Co. Now they're apparently shuffling the rest of the military command around. If there was nothing else that Bush has done that was bad, that would scare the hell out of me. We caught him doing the same thing with the US states attorneys. Who knows how many attorneys went along with the whitehouse when they said "keep quiet or we'll fire you" and they tried to take congress out of the loop on new attorneys too. They have the executive branch and they tried to control the judicial branch and they're in the process of putting loyalists in the military, and congress is on the verge of being stuck behind the veto power because their opposition to Bush isn't strong enough.
See a pattern yet?
June 8th, 2007 at 3:07 pmSorry, I’m not great at detecting jokes.
Comment by CompTROLLER V-1
I noticed that.
You might want to work on that, CT. It would help a lot around here, and in life in general -- and might reduce your stress levels.
June 8th, 2007 at 3:09 pmThe ASSISTANT TO THE PRESIDENT, scooter libby, is a FELON…
Bush and ALL his WAR CRIMINALS need to be in Iraq,
SUPPORTING THE TROOPS with their BLOOD!!!
NOT the blood of innocent Americans who are
LIED into THINKING that THEY ARE "SUPPORTING FREEDOM".
June 8th, 2007 at 3:09 pmComment by Zooey
You're practically reading my mind.
June 8th, 2007 at 3:11 pmYou’re practically reading my mind.
Comment by CompTROLLER V-1
Let me know if I can help. :)
June 8th, 2007 at 3:16 pmThird grade teacher tell her class that humans are the only animals that stutter. A little girl in the back raises her hand and says, "That's not true, I had a cat once that stuttered" Teacher asks her to share the story, the liitle girl said, "A big doberman chased my cat into a corner and the cat was going, Phhhhh..., Phhhhh..., Ph..... and before she could say f*ck the doberman ate her"
That's a joke CT.
So is Bush.
June 8th, 2007 at 3:18 pmAgain I ask - how does a country surrender to an abstract concept?
Comment by toasterhead
June 8th, 2007 at 3:20 pm------------------------------------------------
Like this:
http://www.timeout.com/london/features/2993.html
Wow! He seems to be signalling for a war even longer than the subject of those offensive spam mails that offer to augment my penis.
June 8th, 2007 at 3:22 pmHe's wrong. Not a generational war.
June 8th, 2007 at 3:54 pmA suicidal, imperialistic, misguided farce of a occupation to secure their oil yes.
Generational war, no.
I wonder if they hate our habeus corpus?
June 8th, 2007 at 3:56 pmIf so, then since we no longer have it, if they now love us>?
Like this:
http://www.timeout.com/london/features/2993.html
Comment by Ringo — June 8, 2007 @ 3:20 pm
Ok. So if we maintain the separation of church and state, we win, right?
June 8th, 2007 at 4:01 pmthe statements from the two senators;
June 8th, 2007 at 4:34 pmmight as well be talking about bathwater. when are we going to see anyone with the guts to stand up and do what we, the people, demand?
Hmmmm... perhaps Cheney's cardiologist will do us all a favor and write him an excuse to quit his job. With the ship sinking, there will be no pretty and easy way out for him anyway. Of course, I suppose he could pull a Paris.
June 8th, 2007 at 4:35 pm#100 & #114
Bravo. Well said!
June 8th, 2007 at 4:35 pmThis thread is an illustration of why liberals shouldn't be the people protecting this nation against the jihadists movement that seeks to destroy us.
June 8th, 2007 at 4:37 pmI seem to remember a man who lied to a grand jury and you hypocrites supported him .
Comment by Harry Truman
Like I would give two f*cks about Clinton.
Why? Because he had sex a week ago? Get real — or get some…
Comment by Zooey
Exactly. Addicted, huh?
Hey, Ringo... in that West vs Islam Clash, is Van Damme or Seagal in it?
June 8th, 2007 at 4:47 pmOk. So if we maintain the separation of church and state, we win, right?
Yup. Most importantly, AMERICA and REAL Americans WIN!
June 8th, 2007 at 4:48 pmI see that our leader continue to ignore the support our "friends". the Saudis, are giving to the Sunni insurgencies that our killing our troops on a daily basis. Instead we get more misdirection of American power in the interests of the Saudis (can't have that Shia Crescent) and AIPAC (Israel, right or wrong). So long as we continue to act in their interests and not our own, the mammon worshipping, warmongering, moral degenerates who would control us, will keep on with their ever-so profitable perpetual wars. Phrank
June 8th, 2007 at 4:53 pmThis thread is an illustration of why liberals shouldn’t be the people protecting this nation against the jihadists movement that seeks to destroy us.
Comment by Toliver — June 8, 2007 @ 4:37 pm
Would you like to explain the illustration? Is it because we'd like the President to admit he made a mistake, take responsibility for it and stop lying to us, or maybe it's because we'd like not to continue the same war strategy that got us where we are (ie bogged down with no end in sight) or maybe its because we don't think the war is even legal, or maybe it's because of all the freedoms we've sacrificed for an unsibstantiated increase in security when everyone but the Bush administrations says the world is a much MORE dangerous place since the Iraq war started?
Is that the picture you were talking about the liberals painting? Is the truth a threat to our way of life? Does it let the terrorists win? Does the truth fail to protect us?
The Republicans have been doing a great job of protecting our "way of life" so far, as long as that way of life doesn't include due process, privacy, security, or a stable economy... our way of life is very secure.
I think you're right. The liberals should just stop whining and let the Conservatives continue on the way they've been going. After all, the war will be over in a little while right..... oh that's right... some bone-head is telling our troops that it might not be over IN THEIR LIFETIME... I wonder what idiot appointed that bone-head......
June 8th, 2007 at 4:55 pmBush's puppetmasters have given up on Iraq and going to initiate a sea and air war against Iran.
June 8th, 2007 at 5:00 pmMullen is part of the shell game. Gates is telling us part of the truth in that he doesn't want Pace to have a "contentious" re-confirmation hearing. It seems with Mullen and Fallon the administration is focusing a lot on the naval power aspect of their military adventure. Could it be that they are preparing to do a little gun boat diplomacy when they announce their plans to begin withdrawing from Iraq?
June 8th, 2007 at 5:02 pmSo Bush found an admiral to challenge CENTCOM's Admiral Fallon-who made it clear he'd not attack Iran on his watch.
Feinstein's ringing-even anxious- endorsement of Gen. Hayden says it all. The Neo Cons want permanant war.
Naughty globalists! Now, they're attempting an end-around to get at that oil.
http://www.light-to-dark.com/neo_con_totality.html
.
June 8th, 2007 at 5:02 pmWhat the administration doesn't seem to get is that this war is happening because of their policies - not despite of them.
I despair....
June 8th, 2007 at 5:03 pmIraq is a theatre in a larger global war in case you haven't noticed swordsbane. From Africa to Asia to South America the jihad movement is doing what they do best, and the libs haven't a clue as to how to deal with them.
Will it take a couple Western cities getting nuked for some people to get it?
June 8th, 2007 at 5:07 pmHT's SPAM ignores the fact that if you wanted to REDUCE terrorism, you wouldn't hand out HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF TONS OF MUNITIONS to Iraqi looters, by grossly underdeploying the invasion force.
Screw you, HT, you troll -- you've got the blood of 3,500 US soldiers all over you, like George "I Supplied Endless IEDs to the Enemies of Our Troops" Bush.
June 8th, 2007 at 5:09 pmIf we are to be concerned about nukes, then we would be concerned about Bush's total failure to guard our ports.
June 8th, 2007 at 5:10 pmThe jihad against the West began long before Bush. So has the enslavement and murder of women, the abuse and murder of gays, and so on and so forth. But I suppose that's all W's fault too eh?
June 8th, 2007 at 5:11 pmIraq is a theatre in a larger global war in case you haven’t noticed swordsbane. From Africa to Asia to South America the jihad movement is doing what they do best, and the libs haven’t a clue as to how to deal with them.
Will it take a couple Western cities getting nuked for some people to get it?
Comment by Toliver — June 8, 2007 @ 5:07 pm
You know.. I'm sure those were words.... but all I hear is "blah blah blah blah"
So of course if you're being stung by wasps, you should naturally take the nest and staple it to your forehead and smack your head against the wall.
Invading Iraq was illegal, strategically irrelevant, had nothing to do with terrorism and was monumentally stupid. And NOT wanting to continue is going to be DANGEROUS?? Look around you pal... we passed dangerous a long time ago.
June 8th, 2007 at 5:14 pmWill it take a couple Western cities getting nuked for some people to get it?
Comment by Toliver — June 8, 2007 @ 5:07 pm
OK then, you're getting to the heart of the matter, why aren't we fighting these other terrorists in other countries - such as OBL for example - instead of creating more of them in Iraq. You are a fool at best, and a boot licking fascist at best.
June 8th, 2007 at 5:14 pmThe Oil Jihad against innocent persons in the Middle East is FOR PROFIT, not for national security.
Covering up PROFIT by sputtering about terrorism is a gambit that will no longer work. Tough luck, Toliver.
June 8th, 2007 at 5:15 pmIf we really want to get to what the enemy wants of us and why they hate us, we don't need to argue over this. We know. Al Qaeda and related groups have said what they want for five years now.
To cite Adam Gadahn, Al Qaeda's American spokesman, from his video on May 29th, we can do the following to satify them:
1) Pull our troops, intelligence agencies, advisors and diplomats from every Muslim country on earth.
2) End all support to 56 "apostate" Muslim countries in the world (that's all of them) and leave them to "their well-deserved fate".
3) End all support, moral, political and economic, to Israel and ban any travel to there.
4) Ban all broadcasts to muslim countries.
5) Free all Muslim captives from custody, in the United States and abroad, whether they have received a trial or not, whatever they have been charged or convicted of.
If one wants to claim that they "hate us for our policies" and that they have reasons to hate us, there those policies and reasons are. We can have an open and honest discussion as to whether we ought to follow through on the above-listed demands. If not, we have war.
June 8th, 2007 at 5:15 pmFrom Africa to Asia to South America the jihad movement is doing what they do best, and the libs haven’t a clue as to how to deal with them.
Comment by Toliver
Are there links?
June 8th, 2007 at 5:19 pmAl Qaeda's top leadership was trapped at Tora Bora.
Boy Wonder deployed 1,500 special forces against Tora Bora.
You can't even get a decent badmitton round robin going with 1,500 troops.
PREDICTABLY, Al Qaeda escaped.
Did the US follow Al Qaeda into Pakistan to destroy them? NO, we did not.
The idea that Boy Wonder would kill the son of his biggest oil backers is a STUPIDITY that only Toliver, Tom, and HT can believe.
Tough luck, guys -- you got screwed because you backed a LOSER.
June 8th, 2007 at 5:21 pmYou know... if you go and ask a self-proclaimed "enemy of the West" why they are fighting us, they will say "because you come to our country and tell us what to do and meddle in our soveregnity"
Here's a thought.... let's not do that. Then at least they'll have to come up with another excuse, and who knows... maybe they'll stop trying to kill us in the meantime.
BTW: in case you aren't aware of it, if they were doing to us what they claim we're doing to them, do you really think we'd stand for it? Take a moment to think before you take the high moral ground.
June 8th, 2007 at 5:23 pmIf one wants to claim that they “hate us for our policies†and that they have reasons to hate us, there those policies and reasons are. We can have an open and honest discussion as to whether we ought to follow through on the above-listed demands. If not, we have war.
Comment by Tom — June 8, 2007 @ 5:15 pm
Tom, I don't know about anyone else here at TP, but I personally believe that we do have a huge problem with Muslim fundamentalists, which will require intelligence & quite possibly violence in our own defense. But we're not fighting them. By attacking Iraq, we're ignoring those fundamentalists and creating more of them in Iraq.
June 8th, 2007 at 5:24 pmPaul,
June 8th, 2007 at 5:27 pmyou ought to actually remember what was going on in Afghanistan. We didn't have thousands and thousands of troops in the country, nor did we have the means to put them there. Remember back then? Small, landlocked country, nearly 1000 miles from open water? Remember the worries about the Russian experience? Please tell me how you would have set up the logisical chain across Pakistan and into the country for all those thousands of troops that you say we should have sent, without it getting cut to bits along the way.
It must be great to be a Dimocrat. After never successfully prosecuting a war in 60 years, they can do all the monday-morning quarterbacking you want without ever actually having to do anything.
Namtillaku,
Feeling unhinged again? Mommy and Daddy didn't give you enough attention?
Paul,
You don't know much about Tora Bora. Read up on what CENTCOM thought at the time.
Pulling out too soon wouldn't do much but make a bad situation worse. Ignoring the wasps and wishing them to go away won't help either. None of your candidates has an aggressive vision on how to fight the jihadists.
Your party is WEAK and can't be trusted.
June 8th, 2007 at 5:31 pm"you ought to actually remember what was going on in Afghanistan. We didn’t have thousands and thousands of troops in the country, nor did we have the means to put them there." -- Tom
That's HILARIOUS. The US military, according to you, could not deliver sufficient troops to kill Al Qaeda after Nine-eleven.
You're a SURRENDER MONKEY!
Why do you hate the troops and despise our military?
June 8th, 2007 at 5:31 pmNamtillaku,
June 8th, 2007 at 5:31 pmIraq was a mistake. That's clear now. Ignoring the ad hominem attacks ("It's all about oil!" (TM)) and dealing with the argument for Iraq directly, the purpose of the war in the wider scheme of things was to "redraw the map" of the Middle East: provide a stable democratic government that would serve as a model for the region and dry up many of the reasons for terrorism (incompetent and brutal regimes that we've supported for decades).
That strategy has failed spectacularly. Granted that, but what are we to make up that? Should we go back to Plan A and support the old dictators we used to (like Saddam)? Pulling out completely from the Middle East and having no contact, economic, political, diplomatic, with any country there, which Al Qaeda would like, is not a realistic solution.
Paul,
June 8th, 2007 at 5:36 pmI actually served in the Marine Corps. It isn't as if we just "beam" somewhere. We and our equipment and supplies have to be delived somehow. Remember for Iraq, it tooks months of moving units and log to Kuwait, where there are deepwater ports. We're we supposed to just flap our arms and fly to Tora Bora?
We lose one stooge, only to get another in his place...nice.
June 8th, 2007 at 5:37 pmIt must be great to be a Dimocrat. After never successfully prosecuting a war in 60 years, they can do all the monday-morning quarterbacking you want without ever actually having to do anything.
Comment by Tom — June 8, 2007 @ 5:27 pm
When throw out a tactic that doesn't work, I don't get people killed. The difference between me and Bush (besides about 150 IQ points) is that Bush SHOULD KNOW BETTER. If Bush has all this vast Conservative experience to draw on, why did we go into Iraq to fight an enemy that wasn't there until we let him in? Why did Bush lie to us about why we went in, how well we were doing, and when we were going to be done? Why are we using tactics we know to be not working? Or is this all some clever plan to make everyone think he's an idiot?? In that case, it's working very well.
btw: Those questions are rhetorical. I know the answers (the real answers and the Conservative answer) but you are invited to think about them before you make any more comments implying a vast Conservative military experience pool.
June 8th, 2007 at 5:37 pmYour party is WEAK and can’t be trusted.
Comment by Toliver — June 8, 2007 @ 5:31 pm
Don't give them to me... I don't want them.. I dislike the Reps AND the Dems. It just so happens that the Dems aren't getting our troops killed right now. As to how to fight the "jihadists" (such a stupid name) I already gave you my idea. It at least has the virtue of never having been tried, which is more than I can say for current Conservative policy.
June 8th, 2007 at 5:40 pmSwordsbane wrote:
"If Bush has all this vast Conservative experience to draw on, why did we go into Iraq to fight an enemy that wasn’t there until we let him in? Why did Bush lie to us about why we went in, how well we were doing, and when we were going to be done? Why are we using tactics we know to be not working?"
Well, this war was promoted by the neocons, who were former liberals... :P
June 8th, 2007 at 5:40 pmPaul,
Your knowledge base is weak, not unlike your constitution. Google up "Tora Bora CENTCOM" for some facts. Find out what CENTCOM thought if you care about the truth.
June 8th, 2007 at 5:41 pm"Paul,
I actually served in the Marine Corps. It isn’t as if we just “beam†somewhere." --Tom
I see, Tom, so it's a MILITARY failure, not a command failure.
• Insufficient troops to Tora Bora to do the job on the real enemy.
• Insufficient troops (by 300,000+) to secure CEA in Iraq or prevent looting.
Both of those C-in-C COMMAND FAILURES need to be blamed on the military, eh?
When did you complete your bootlicking assignment to Rumsfeld?
June 8th, 2007 at 5:42 pm"Well, this war was promoted by the neocons, who were former liberals" --Tom
Donald Rumsfeld was NEVER a liberal. Neither was Dick Cheney or Paul Wolfowitz. Or George Bush.
You're a liar, Tom.
June 8th, 2007 at 5:44 pmSorry about lumping you in with the dems swordsbane.
"Jihadists" is not a good word to describe these cats? Do you like the term "islamofascists" any better?
June 8th, 2007 at 5:44 pm"Your knowledge base is weak, not unlike your constitution. Google up “Tora Bora CENTCOM†for some facts. Find out what CENTCOM thought if you care about the truth." --Toliver
Toliver, apparently you are a fool. "CENTCOM" minus the Joint Chiefs that Rumsfeld despised, and with OSP's propaganda, claims whatever it wants to about those days.
Since Rumsfeld was already planning on attacking Iraq, and since Bush ILLEGALLY transfered funds and troops FROM Afghanistan to Iraq, the idea that Tora Bora was as CENTCOM apologists say is hilarious.
Ask any of our retired generals who will say, and they blame the whole thing on Rumsfeld and Bush. You know, the CIVILIAN COMMANDERS.
June 8th, 2007 at 5:46 pmPart of the definition of a "neocon" is a former lib Paul. You really aren't armed with many facts today are you?
June 8th, 2007 at 5:47 pmPaul,
I don't see where you see "military failure" (outside of your attempt to set up a straw-man and put words in my mouth, that is) in what I said. We did Afghanistan with a light deployment (mostly Special Operations, the first MEU didn't come in for weeks) to avoid the problems the Russians had and to get the Taliban out. Tora Bora came up on our radar late and we didn't have the opportunity. If we had crystal balls issued out, wars would be easier.
Similar situation going into Iraq. We went with a (relatively) light force to take out the government first. You can critique these individual strategies, but you have to account for the reasons they were created and the realities around which they were designed, and then answer those with what you might have done and how you would have avoided the pitfalls in the strategic situation.
Of course, you won't do that. You don't have to do that when you're just trying to come up with a snappy slogan or talking point.
June 8th, 2007 at 5:48 pmToliver, the correct term is OIL-POSSESSING MUSLIMS.
• Please make a note of it.
June 8th, 2007 at 5:48 pmPulling out completely from the Middle East and having no contact, economic, political, diplomatic, with any country there, which Al Qaeda would like, is not a realistic solution.
Comment by Tom — June 8, 2007 @ 5:31 pm
Why is that not a realistic solution? Bush himself says we should eliminate our reliance on foreign oil (though I don't believe for one moment that he is sincere.) the oil will be running out soon anyway and it's the major reason our environment is being destroyed. Most of those countries exist soley on oil, and they know that the rest of the world needs it so that gives them leverage. Not buying their oil and finding another way to provide our energy would force them to (in the international sense) get real jobs and finally join the rest of the world. You'd be surprised what economic diversity does to your xenophobia.
Islam is not what we're fighting, any more than fighting Pat Roberts intolerance is fighting Christianity. The PEOPLE of the middle eastern countries don't want to fight us, but since we're always in their face, messing with their policies trying to squeeze another drop of oil from them and playing them all off against Israel, it's really easy for them to hate us and get recruited by the minority nut cases who never strapped on a bomb in their lives. STOP GIVING THEM REASONS. Then if anyone is left to fight us, it will be the REAL enemy and we can put a bullet in their heads and be done with it. We don't need to take down whole countries to do it, especially when we can't even seem to do that right.
June 8th, 2007 at 5:49 pm"We did Afghanistan with a light deployment (mostly Special Operations, the first MEU didn’t come in for weeks) to avoid the problems the Russians had and to get the Taliban out. Tora Bora came up on our radar late and we didn’t have the opportunity. If we had crystal balls issued out, wars would be easier." -- Tom
I am laughing out loud, Tom. Thanks for that.
How many troops have to die for Bush's incompetent AND NEGLIGENT failures to be admitted?
With more vacation time than ANY US President in history, including FDR, Boy Wonder will go down in history as the most incapable, incurious, uninformed LIAR AND FAKE leading a major country in world history.
You will apparently need more time blaming it all on the troops before you get that.
June 8th, 2007 at 5:54 pmPaul,
June 8th, 2007 at 5:54 pmif you don't believe that Tora Bora was as CENTCOM says, what is your source (I mean, aside from DNC's latest talking points)?
So we've seized Iraqi oil fields and are pumping ourselves free oil as we speak my lib friends?
Gee, I wonder who got the first oil contracts from Iraq? I'm glad they are American companies. Oh wait......
June 8th, 2007 at 5:56 pmRingo points out, upthread:
I think there's a bit of a knee jerk here, by assuming the's talking about Iraq (which is commented on elsewhere in the excerpts).
Now, one either believes that we are in a showdown kind of confrontation (which I prefer over the term "war" in this instance) with radical Islam, or one does not believe that. THAT confrontation began a long time ago, although we've not reacted like we were IN a war, for the most part, until recently... and even now it's a "different kind of war" because there IS no one who would be iin a position to surrender on behalf of the whole radical Islam movement and we as civilians are not being asked to make any sacrifices.
If one accepts the notion that we are "Confronting and Disabling Forces Who Use Terrorism" (instead of saying we are "Conducting a War on Terror") then I do think it will be a generation-long thing at least.
June 8th, 2007 at 5:59 pmhttp://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/darkside/view/
Interesting video from PBS about the "DARK SIDE" operations
June 8th, 2007 at 5:59 pmThe aggressive act of preemption defines totalitarianism. The smarter apologists/enablers know this well.
It is and always shall be an act most unAmerican.
http://www.light-to-dark.com/preemption.html
To support the continuing crime-in-progress, founded upon that principle is to admit to a grave deficiency of character.
.
June 8th, 2007 at 5:59 pmswordsbane,
June 8th, 2007 at 5:59 pmthe issue with oil runs up against simple physics and economics. Now, and for the foreseeable future, oil is an indispensible source of energy. Even if we cut back on our usage of it, it's still hard to beat. Cutting back without a viable replacement means tanking our economy, not an alternative. And the Middle East is central in the oil question because the oil there is the cheapest, so it is the first source, the swing producer.
The area also is important geographically and culturally. Israel is there. It's the borderland between Europe, Africa and Asia. It's always going to be important.
We can't get out completely, as well, because no one else will. The Russians, the Chinese, the Europeans, will all have interests and business there. Isolationism doesn't work, if it ever did, in this small modern world. We can't wall ourselves off completely from any part of the world any more.
So we’ve seized Iraqi oil fields and are pumping ourselves free oil as we speak my lib friends?
Gee, I wonder who got the first oil contracts from Iraq? I’m glad they are American companies. Oh wait……
Comment by Toliver — June 8, 2007 @ 5:56 pm
Even I don't buy that it was for oil anymore, except insofar as it pumps up the price of oil and our US companies profit from that. The Iraq war is the left hand distraction. There was NO reason to go into Iraq. None at all. We didn't take the oil, we didn't find WMDs, we didn't find terrorists (until after) and it certainly didn't help us in the fight against terrorism elsewhere. So look at what it DID do.
It got us all concerned about terrorism. It got us to give up certain key freedoms in this country. It gave the Feds more scruitiny and more authority over our lives. It gave the Republicans more power HERE in the US.
Why is it so hard to accept that this was what they wanted all along... for us to be in a long fight in another country and to constantly have the fear of attack in our minds so that they can trot it out whenever they want to do something that's unconstitutional?
It's either that or they are completely incompetent morons. Truthfully, I can see both are valid arguments.
But that Bush is trying to safeguard the country by continuing a moral crusade in Iraq against terrorists?? You'd have more luck convincing me that the Pope is Wiccan.
June 8th, 2007 at 6:09 pmSo what happened to the great selling point for the "surge" that was going to straighten the whole thing out in a few months?
A "surge" that will last 50 years? When does the draft begin?
June 8th, 2007 at 6:12 pmI me really that funny
Comment by Fake Harry Truman aka Clinton-wannabe
Hey, Harry, I already warned you that Karl will cut your salary if you keep on making us look stupid with poor writing. That sentence above makes no sense--except to me, when I've been snorting crack and drinking beer.
June 8th, 2007 at 6:13 pmswordsbane,
the issue with oil runs up against simple physics and economics. Now, and for the foreseeable future, oil is an indispensible source of energy. Even if we cut back on our usage of it, it’s still hard to beat. Cutting back without a viable replacement means tanking our economy, not an alternative. And the Middle East is central in the oil question because the oil there is the cheapest, so it is the first source, the swing producer.
The area also is important geographically and culturally. Israel is there. It’s the borderland between Europe, Africa and Asia. It’s always going to be important.
We can’t get out completely, as well, because no one else will. The Russians, the Chinese, the Europeans, will all have interests and business there. Isolationism doesn’t work, if it ever did, in this small modern world. We can’t wall ourselves off completely from any part of the world any more.
Comment by Tom — June 8, 2007 @ 5:59 pm
We'll have business interests there until we no longer need the oil, and that's key. It's not isolationist to refuse to trade with someone when others do. We do it all the time. We're talking about oil here. If we had an alternate energy source, it wouldn't matter a ticks butt hair that other countries were still messing around in the mid-east. They just don't have much else besides oil. WE wouldn't have to trade with them, and our economy would do just fine without skyrocketing oil prices. The radicals nut-jobs will hate OTHER countries stupid enough to stick with their failed policies like we used to.
Of course the execs at Haliburton will have to find other jobs, and that's probably the REAL reason why it won't happen, but that doesn't stop it from being the right thing to do.
June 8th, 2007 at 6:15 pm"the Great rule of conduct for us, in regard to foreign Nations is in extending our commercial relations to have with them as little political connection as possible." George Washington
Unfortunately, the US has ignored this advice for many years and now we are paying the price.
June 8th, 2007 at 6:15 pmFeeling unhinged again? Mommy and Daddy didn’t give you enough attention?
Nothing substantive to say means you acquiesce to my arguments - thanks loser.
June 8th, 2007 at 6:23 pmThat strategy has failed spectacularly. Granted that, but what are we to make up that? Should we go back to Plan A and support the old dictators we used to (like Saddam)? Pulling out completely from the Middle East and having no contact, economic, political, diplomatic, with any country there, which Al Qaeda would like, is not a realistic solution.
Comment by Tom — June 8, 2007 @ 5:31 pm
We hang George W. Bush and those that lied to us as traitors. We do whatever the Iraqi people want us to do, leave - stay and help somehow - whatever. We defend our country by spending on things like searching cargo containers etc. We increase our intelligence operations with the purpose of thwarting attacks on us before they happen.
June 8th, 2007 at 6:27 pmI feel better after reading Meyer and Friedman. Meyer's take is that Iraq is but one front in the war to modernize Islam, and that there is progress in that war around the world. Friedman's take is that Iraq is but a spoiling attack, where the goal is not victory but to deny the enemy (jihadist terrorists) victory while we increase our power and influence everywhere. And further, that this is the strategy that has enabled us to withstand stalemates in Korea, Vietnam, Cuba and Iran while our power and influence grew.
June 8th, 2007 at 6:51 pmThey need to do more than focus on Iraq. They need to grill him (and keep a close reign) on IRAN. They need to make it clear that Iran is off limits. They need to be sending clear signals to Bush and the JCS that Iran will NOT be attacked without explicit Congressional approval.
June 8th, 2007 at 6:52 pmWho is that old fellow talking about? I'm retired. I have no intention of fighting wars.
June 8th, 2007 at 7:09 pmIt's been nothing but wars wars wars all my life. I'm sick of it. And the enemy was ALWAYS the most evil and vicious foe ever to threaten civilization.
Let all those old guys go out and fight evil if that's what turns them on and lay off the rest of us.
Namtillaku,
I'm just guessing as to why you are so angry.
Remember this?
Usually such irrational outbursts have something to do with Mom and/or Dad. Learn to put the past aside and be civil.
June 8th, 2007 at 7:16 pmHarry"Trollman" wrote:
"God you People are Stupid Lets go over the List again . Children I hate going over and over this lesson again and again to say this is about oil is stupid "
But, like the saying that Figures don't lie, but liers figure. Trollman so conveniently list the incidents where someone actually succeeded in hitting us BACK and totally ignores they might have had some motivation in the horrendous things that have been done in the name of the American Empire both before and during that time. As Chalmers Johnson, scholar and auther of books on the topic including Blowback, Sorrows of Empire and Nemesis, said, immedieately after 9/11 and before Osama took credit for it, he thought of a dozen or so "factions" or groups of people who would have had enough animus for us to take such an action.
June 8th, 2007 at 7:56 pmhe can stick his "generational war" right up his el commandante bum...
Trotsky was wrong...not just for the reds, but for the blues as well....
June 8th, 2007 at 8:11 pmNever have I been witness to such hand wringing caterwalling from our leaders. Repeat after me my fellow Americans:
The War on Terror is a political slogan. The War on Terror is complete nonsense. The War on Terror should end today. Let the man hunts begin and the war end.
June 8th, 2007 at 8:21 pmAh, jeez, kids, it's all about the money. Bushco went into this thing in order to transfer a few trillion from the US treasury into private/corporate coffers. It's simply the largest armed robbery in history. Mission accomplished.
June 8th, 2007 at 8:27 pmYes, the Admiral has a good understanding of the key points. Of course, it was the Navy Seals and other special ops troops who opened the Reagan -era, Bechtel-built caves, and uncovered teh ultra sophisticated operations of Al Qaida and Bin Laden's ultra-motivated core of trained terrorists. Anyone who has that type of insight to Bin Laden's troops unerstands that the Bush/Cheney administration grossly erred in declaring the PNAC's policy to be the nation's policy. What was needed at the time was a sensitivity to diplomacy that would split off the Muslim world's fanatics from that world's realists and moderates.
Admiral Mullen understands this, but he can only do his best to express his opinions when policy is being made. After that, his role will be either to carry out policy decided by the NCA or resign. Let's hope that the ears that Mullen's wise opinions are sowed upon bear fruit.
But we all know the Bush/Cheney team is famous for its tin ear condition! Perhaps miracles will happen!
June 8th, 2007 at 8:38 pmUsually such irrational outbursts have something to do with Mom and/or Dad. Learn to put the past aside and be civil.
Comment by Toliver — June 8, 2007 @ 7:16 pm
Hardly an irrational outburst, and as I'm 46 years old and both my parents have passed, I'm unable to refer to them.
All of your comments add up to the fact that you are; 1 - a traitor to your country, 2 - a fascist, authoritarian personality, 3 - you're dimwitted, and 4 - unable to debate me on the subject at hand, so like your kind, resort to name calling etc.
I'll say it again: I believe that we have a major problem with Muslim fundamentalists - they to practice fascism of a much worse kind than BushCo. But the war in Iraq is the wrong way to fight it them, they weren't even there in the first place, yet we were dragged into this occupation by BushCo based on lies, and it's had the effect of creating MORE terrorist. All the while, we've virtually ignored the real islamo-fascists (to use Patrick1's nomenclature) who attacked America in the first place.
But the traitors in our country, such as yourself, would see America destroyed, taking your place in the line of lemmings that BushCo is marching off the cliff.
June 8th, 2007 at 8:58 pmBut we all know the Bush/Cheney team is famous for its tin ear condition! Perhaps miracles will happen!
Comment by 1977 — June 8, 2007 @ 8:38 pm
Sounds like someone is living in the past.
June 8th, 2007 at 9:00 pmWell Harry, seems like haven't won a war since the big one have we? Vietnam, poverty, drugs. Might as well keep the streak going...
June 8th, 2007 at 9:12 pmWell Harry, seems like haven’t won a war since the big one have we? Vietnam, poverty, drugs. Might as well keep the streak going…
Comment by Ronald Reagan — June 8, 2007 @ 9:12 pm
It would be helpful if we actually defined the terms correctly. What we are doing in Iraq could hardly be called a war, we are occupiers plain & simple.
Win? What will a victory in Iraq look like? Since it's an occupation, I propose that a victory would be the very topic of this thread - that we will still be there in 50 years. The sad thing is that most of those who got us in there won't be able to enjoy their 'victory', they will long since be dead by natural causes.
June 8th, 2007 at 9:21 pmHey Harry Truman, I can tell you're one of the twenty or so out of every 100 American citizens with a brain bent on refusing to admit you're wrong. If Bush Al Mighty himself declared today that he'd changed his mind about Iraq strategy and then ordered a redeployment of troops, would you disagree? Hell no, you'd pipe the background music of what a good decision... blah blah blah.
Since you're willing to give us all a chronology of recent history involving terrorist activity against the United States, I'll take a moment to expand:
We've (the West in general) pretty much pushed these folks around for centuries. Lots of oil made things a lot worse. We've supported leaders that oppressed their people. We've overtly and covertly installed leaders of our choice, either directly or indirectly. When the Shah of Iran was ousted in an early coup, we re-installed him with a counter-coup. As long as we accept and support Middle East leaders that meet our economic and strategic interests while ignoring the interests of their own people, we'll continue to fall victim to terrorist activity from time to time. Add an illegal invasion of a Muslim country that had nothing to do with the task at hand and the "terrists" multiply unimaginably.
You address bloggers of this post with insults to their intelligence. Party-line rhetoric is pretty easy to identify as short on facts, long on insults and a blind faith to policy that borders on unconsciousness. Other than a few sarcastic blogs, (I hope sarcastic applies) you're about the only obvious troll in this entire blog.
Open your eyes and ears Harry, our government likes to tell you whatever they think you'll like to hear.
June 8th, 2007 at 9:24 pmis this admiral a new standup comedy guy.
June 8th, 2007 at 9:51 pmWar for oil? That's just crazy! It's not as if national security or military power has anything to do with the value of US currency. It's not like the value of US currency has anything to with OPEC's global oil transaction. And no way is it in US interest to govern the global oil spigot to maintain the value of its "super power". It's not like a bursting dollar bubble will render moot -all- of the other godamned things you knuckle draggers go on and on about. No. Not like that all. Crack a book, apes, an economics book. There's your endless war. God bless Central Banking, an'please pass the butter.
June 8th, 2007 at 9:59 pmFolks, I agree with Hattie.Being a vet myslf, 2 tours Viet Nam. The adversary of the moment is always evil incarnate. We seem to fight for the monied interests and thier proxies. Give us some patriotic music, mix in some God is certainly on "our" side and you have all the makings of a swell slaughter. Human beings (both combat and civilians) get blown to bits or maimed horribly in the name of what? Allah?,Jesus?,The American way of life?,Satan couldn't have planned these fiascos with more imagination. Our collective blood and entrails that litter the landscape, sully our nations claim to anything noble or just for what? Our God's better than your God! and by the way, might makes right! Your possesions are forfeit and we leaders of the free world(free of that bothersome CONSTITUTION and THE BILL OF RIGHTS) Come on America! IT'S A NEW WORLD ORDER! GEORGE ORWELL WOULD BE PROUD.
June 8th, 2007 at 10:10 pmIf 'they' found a way to make it a "short war" then would 'they' do so ?
June 8th, 2007 at 10:31 pmI just noticed that Adm. Mike ‘mad dog’ Mullen was the one who mouthed off when the 15 Bristish sailors were taken, and he basically said, ‘if it had been US sailors we would have started a shooting war’.
Wow, what a great, level-headed guy to have as Bush’s Chairman of Joint Chiefs —- great that is to start a nuclear WWIII.
June 8th, 2007 at 10:32 pmYou, Harry Truman, are the type of idiot, and one of the fewer than 30% of idiots still left in this country, who thinks things are still going welll, that Bush is a great leader and that the war in Iraq is a war for our survival and way of life. I'm glad that I'm an American, but, at this time, people like you mak me not particularly proud to be one. Comments like the one inwhich you stated that there is no poverty in this country lead me to believe that you are either one of those rich a-holes who constantly votes republican or just deaf, dumb and blind. No POVERTY? One stupid rock have you been living under? You must be from Odessa or Midland, Texas where many of Bushies idiot cronies come from. I have the misfortune of currently living in texas and, have met idiots from there who think everything is well with the world. Although those types of idiots abound in Texas, some Texans are becoming enlightened and realizing the mistake they made when they voted these idiots into office, not once, but twice. Unfortunately, that second mistake can't be corrected. Idiots like you are a special case. After all that has happened in this country, not only with the war, but the corruption and constant and frequent scandals(too many to name here) that, with a little research, any INTELLIGENT human being can find should have led to the impeachment of, not only your idiot president, but many of his cronies, it is appalling to find a backwoods, inbred, low-browed dumbass who just turns a blindeye to everything and still tries to paint a rosy picture of the path to hell for the United States that has been paved by Bush, his people, and idiot supporters like you. People have always hated the United States, although, never like now when even our allies think we are trash, and before i just saw it as sour grapes over them wanting to be like us. I discovered some time ago that many of these people have legitimate reasons for hating us. Why do we think that everyone wants to be like us? Some people are happy in their countries with them just the way they are. Ask Iraqis if they would rather be under Saddam where a few died, or under U.S. control where 100s of 1000'2 have died, are starving or have had to leave their countries because of our unwanted and uncalled for INVASION. Americans(and I use that term litely) like you, are the reason the world hates us. Idiots with their sense of entitlement ust because they are americans and nothing else. You sound like a typical jackass conservative. I bet you've never served in the military either. It's easy for you idiots to speak of patriotism and spill other americans' childrens blood, when you've never had the courage to join the military and offer your own blod for our freedom. You conservatives all make me sick. You're just lucky that some people are too stupid to learn the truth and too blind, dumb or death to learn it elsewhere. If it wasn't the case, you guys would all be on your way to the gallows for sacrificing our nation for greed over our founding principles. You guys wouldn't know what a true patriot was unless one of us punched you in the face.
June 8th, 2007 at 11:04 pmI've read some pretty stupid comments on here, even though Harry Truman's take the cake. You can rehash all those terrorist incidents to try to prove that they hate us for NO reason but, just read about the terrorists that we helped along the way. The 1st idiot BUSH armed what would turn into AlQaeda to help defeat the russians in Afghanistan. If you're not too dumb, you can look it up yourself. The problem is, most of you conservative apologists are either too dumb to find these facts or, would rather not so as not to feel as stupid as you would if you were proven wrong. You idiots are like a million clones of that great jackass Bill Orally. In Panama, we knew Noriega was trafficking coke and the CIA was okay with it until he went against daddy and daddy punished him for his insolence. The U.S. has committed covert atrocities in Nicaragua, Honduras, Panama and Venezuela, to name a few central american countries. We haven't dirtied our hands directly but, have facilitated the means for others to do so with our full backing and knowledge. The same applies in Asia and, definitely, in the middle East. Look at the atrocities committed against Palestinians for 40 years by Israel. All with our backing and knowledge. It's funny. one guy blows himself up in Israel, and everyone's outraged. When Israeli's "retaliate" and kill hundreds or thousands, as they have done for decades, it is somehow justified. Israel has systematically been committing Genicide against the Palestinians all under the watchful and proud eye of Mama America. We still wonder why they hate us. Pull your head out of your CULO and you may find out. Until then, go dip, drive your pickup, watch NASCAR and let intelligent, informed people discuss the sad, sorry state these a-holes have put our country in.
June 8th, 2007 at 11:19 pmUh . . . far be it from me to jump to the defense of a troll, but it looks like harry hasn't reached the point in his history class where he learns that Harry Truman was a Democrat. Could someone please tell him?
And also to Tom/Tolliver/whoever it was that said a neocon is defined as a former liberal . . . please. You have got to be kidding. If anyone is actually saying that, it's a ploy to make the Democrats look worse than they already do.
The only people, though, who would believe that are the 28%-ers who think that things are going great in this country.
So, my stupid, redneck, backwater, conservative, treasonous friends--in the words of the Dick that you love so much, "Go f*ck yourselves."
June 8th, 2007 at 11:36 pmThere is an easy way to make this a shorter war than Halliburton and blackwater wish it to be. We just declare that the agreement to use force expired in 2002. Any involvement after that is a crime. Then our boys and girls come home and we work on the $100 trillion debt.
Has anyone else thought of this?
June 8th, 2007 at 11:56 pmBob, efforts by H. Clinton and others in the Senate to do exactly that have so far gone nowhere.
Coups can't be undone with cut-offs of funds.
• We are going to indict these bastards out of office, and then chase them down and make them wear stripes. And even that would be kindness, since the entire Shitehouse Iraq Group should be tried and stood in front of a wall at West Point.
Toliver, Tom, the rest of the clowns, are already wearing blindfolds -- so afraid are they of JUSTICE.
June 9th, 2007 at 12:11 amI noticed a bit of challenged history upthread and I thought I'd offer my insights on the history of the origins of the Neo Cons.
http://www.light-to-dark.com/birth_of_irving.html
Now, Leo Strauss admired Lenin and Trotsky but liked very much the security/deceptive tactics of the Hitler regime, so he brought it into the fabric of his way of thinking. He gave birth to Irving Kristol and, as we all have come to know, gave the world little Bill Kristol, who now is beside himself condeming those not towing the totalitarian line.
All because Leo made the "right" choice.
June 9th, 2007 at 1:07 amEddie...you nailed it.. Thank you
June 9th, 2007 at 1:07 amPerhaps the war would not be a "generational thing" if Admiral Mullins and desktop warriors like him were to be at the forefront of the fight, when the first Sunburn © missiles start to appear on teh horizon.
June 9th, 2007 at 2:59 amBush has destroyed the US army, next the Navy.. Soon there will be no credible military to oppose his private goons as they finally take the country from you.. Wake up America, you have very little time left
Military "ticket punchers", the guys who want to be 5 Star Generals and Chairmen of the Joint Chiefs of Stiff, or Grand Poobah Admiral of the King's Ny-Vee, always wind up running the military in the post-Korean War era and participate in giving us debacles like Vietnam and now Iraq. Others, with a conscience who care about the lives of the cannon fodder they command (and they are now comparatively legion), quit and suffer the consequences. There will have to be a critical mass of the latter who will tell George Wanker Bush and the Yellow Belly Brigade known as The Democratic Party where to head in. Until then, prepare for Korea in the Middle East, with endless casualties and your tax dollars at work being flushed down the Imperial Toilet. Way to go, America!
June 9th, 2007 at 3:04 amThere is good news - soon "They" will no longer have any reason to hate us.
Our liberties will be gone and our freedom curtailed.
Who are these behind-the-scene groups and individuals working with our "enemies" while pretending to protect us-and the troops?
Your guess is as good as mine.
June 9th, 2007 at 3:16 amIs this another appointment from the cabal of right wing christian, end-of-the-world, 'righteous' going to plucked up by the hand of God madpeople that are infiltrating your military? Sounds like it with all that, "they are evil" that we keep hearing over here in the old world of europe. Maybe they dont like our policies in the middle east, maybe they dont like the dictators we have supported so we can get our hands on their oil. Maybe they dont like the fact that a whole country, Palestine, isnt being given a serious option to be a state, and is being denied water rights. Maybe they dont like the fact that we are trying to impose our 'wonderful' modern culture on to them - you know things like the fact that we all seem so much more obsessed in our culture with Paris Hilton than with the plight of the refuges we cause, or the innocent children we bomb. Can I also point out that the only countries to use WMD have been....United States in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and in Vietnam - agent orange and nepalm. And England in WWI when we used mustard gas, and then all the coalition when we used depleted uranium in gulf wars I and II. Oh, yes, and Sadam Hussein, when he used gas on the kurds. Gas, which he got from...us. Maybe its the hypocriscy that they dont like. Generational war means lovely generational profits for the arms industry. I wonder how many of them are 'friends' with our top politicians and military. Generational profits for the arms industry means taxes from us. ( Not on the rich of course, but on you hard working ameircans, and us hard pressed Brits.) It also means less money to spend on health care, education, disaster preperations - New Orleans (How's the repair coming along on that by the way, as billions are spent on destroying Iraq?) It also means the stripping away of civil liberties across the West. Paradoxically we seem to be 'defending' our freedoms by getting rid of them. Isnt that a bit of a scorched earth policy?
June 9th, 2007 at 3:43 amOf course you all do realize that we now have a religious right with a hot line to the whitehouse who are perfectly content to start the rapture and meet the man today. In fact haven't they been sellling that on the TV for some time now. So they actually did miss a few deadlines but heh! Nobody seems to like deadlines anyway. This would have all been just an acedemic argument a while back but no one seems to want to take the NUKE option off the table. I guess once we light up one of those things ... Well let the rapture begin ... and remember we do have one of these true believers in the oval office ... Just something to ponder. As if we haven't got enough on the plate now.
June 9th, 2007 at 4:02 amThe sky is not falling, "Harry Truman."
Islamic radical terrorism has about as much power to conquer or intimidate the U.S. as Pancho Villa had.
As you recall, while President Woodrow Wilson did send an expedition into Mexico in 1916 with the goal of capturing Villa (with the permission of the Mexican government), he stopped short of invading Colombia in response- or decreeing a state of 'generational war' with the entire Spanish-speaking world. Thankfully.
As you also no doubt recall, Pancho Villa managed to evade the U.S. armed forces assigned to capture him.
Despite that, the U.S.A. survived.
June 9th, 2007 at 8:54 amI have this question over and over again! Here goes, One MO Time:
For all you "Cut and Runners" out there, What's your solution to the GWOT?
I won't hold my breathe, have yet to recieve an answer!!
Step Up wingnuts! Criticism without solutions is just More Hot air from the Demented Left!
June 9th, 2007 at 10:47 amYes, we are in a generational war. Just look at the fact that the USMC (United States Corporate Mercenaries) are still able to recruit young morons to continue to do the dirty work of the corporate fascists, and even the "liberal" mainstream media still refers to the oil hostages as "detainees."
June 9th, 2007 at 11:07 amThe demented left. What does that mean. Whats the difference between
June 9th, 2007 at 11:35 amthe poor left and the poor right? Gore Vidal said theres really no left or right. Just the top and the bottom, and all the gradations between them.
As people squabble about ideological labels. The poor get poorer, and the rich get richer.
MUZZLING CERBERUS
Yes, we of the middle class are in a generational war all right--against the industrial cartels.
The cartels are as big a menace now as trusts were at the dawn of the Twentieth Century. They and the plutocrats who own them are a far greater danger to democracy and prosperity than ten thousand terrorists: these cartelist vampires are battening upon the lifeblood of the republic.
The cartels game the political market to shape policy to grow pie. A cartel is mature when it dominates its policy area to the increasing detriment of the general welfare.
The only credible military threat to the U.S. is its own war cartel.
It has sown fear and war for generations to reap its grotesque and murderous profit.
By initiating the Iraq invasion in the absence of any actual threat, on the basis of calculated and malicious lies, solely to profit the war & oil cartels, the President and his co-conspirators have plotted and committed High Treason against the Republic.
Every murder of our soldiers--every burning, every maiming--is on their heads. The massacres of Iraqis by insurgencies and militias that did not exist prior to the illegal invasion--the people killed with electric drills and dumped in the Tigris, undocumented in the morgues and the Overtonian death counts; mass slaughter, mass exodus: for each of these crimes the President is responsible. To aggravate his war crimes he has authorized torture and secret prisons, suspending habeas corpus and violating the Geneva conventions. He and his co-conspirators must be impeached and tried for their High Crimes and Misdemeanors and their Treason and sentenced to life imprisonment without possibility of parole. Let their names be forever sullied with their infamy.
Right now our foreign policy is run by the Cerberus of war and oil.
June 9th, 2007 at 12:37 pmWe need to starve the beast and put it on a short chain with a muzzle.
wheeeee
http://www.caci.com/announcement/nimitz.shtml
June 9th, 2007 at 12:51 pmthey keep defining missions that cannot be accomplished. they define their wars so that they cannot be won.
if they would simply surrender to al qaeda and admit they lost the war with al qaeda (defining loss as al qaeda's survival) then we could negotiate a peace with al qaeda, give them pakistan and afghanistan, and tell them any further terror would get afghanistan and pakistan nuked.
June 9th, 2007 at 3:16 pma little bit of hydrotherapy at guantanamo and herr admiral would change his tune i bet...
June 9th, 2007 at 3:26 pmDEBKAfile: Damascus and Tehran are certain a US-Israeli attack Is in store
June 9th, 2007 at 3:37 pmSyrian and Iranian Generals in Intensive War Consultations
http://www.debka.com/article.php?aid=1279
Harry Truman dropped the first a bomb on innocent civilians, and ringo calls people stupid, takes one to know one , yah yah, sophmoric nonsense they spout, uncreative unhelpful party lines should be banned, the devil quotes scripture, the only evil that subjugates the world is US imperialism
June 9th, 2007 at 9:17 pmwell if you guys are mad then I know that the Country is moving in the RIGHT Direction : P
June 9th, 2007 at 11:40 pmyou know toddsaed if I had'nt dropped those two bombs your grandfather would have died in the south pacific and you dad would not have been born which would have been a good thing
June 9th, 2007 at 11:43 pmyes silly this is just the begining of our involvment this war started about a thousand years ago with the influx of raping and murdering muslims hoards into europe . did'nt you liberal idiots learn anything in high school history ?
June 9th, 2007 at 11:46 pmbob I thought that you were on the side of the muslim terrorists Vlad would have impaled you on a long pole . Man I wish we could do that today that would be grand fun : )
June 9th, 2007 at 11:49 pmThey hate us for our freedom ... to indiscriminately kill them with impunity and without remorse.
June 11th, 2007 at 10:01 amConservatives created this monster when they were funding the majahadeen to fight the Soviets in Afghanistan. They have been feeding this monster constantly with their CIA backed coups of popularly elected governments in order to install US friendly dictators. The middle east and central america have both been turned into powder kegs by these war profiteers.
Take those who have been the most responsible for this madness and publicly execute them on the streets of Bagdad and you'll see this 'civil war' settle down almost immediately. The extremists have no problem recruiting for their cause because the general population doesn't have an identifiable target to blame for the misery they have had to endure. 'The Great Satan' is an easy propaganda tool and those who claim that Muslims, in general, are 'evil' are engaging in exactly the same behavior. The gullibility of the ignorant is just as pervasive there as it is here. Case in point: 'Harry Truman'. A perfect propaganda repository, no critical thinking needed. So sure of his own infallibility that he never questions his methods, even when they produce the opposite results to what he was hoping for.
I wish people in this country would listen to those in uniform. Everyone wants to just give in to the media, and give up on the fight. Has everything been perfect..no. But there have been no terror attacks on ths US, we have a foot in the door in case Iran or Syria goes crazy, and 99% of the military still feels like we should be fighting. I ask you as an officer in the Army to stop saying...help those poor soldiers come home. Sure we would all like to be home BBQing and watching the US Open, but we also signed up to defend our country and its principles. Move to Canada or Europe if you don't want to support the cause.
June 14th, 2007 at 12:33 pmTo Military Officer (214):
So we should keep dying to keep an openly pro-Iranian government in Baghdad?
Tell me how it helps America for thousands of our people to die so that Maliki can be pals with the mullahs and the Badr and Sadr factions, both in the ruling government can help make Greater Iran with OUR help.
Left or right, I never get an answer to that question. It's just that insane for Americans to be in Iraq dying to make Iran a safer place and a more powerful and better-loved influence in the Middle East.
Or for any active officer, under oath of allegiance to the Constitution and the People, to abide such treason.
But, hey. The Confederacy had a lot of good officers, too, who believed in what they were doing.
July 24th, 2007 at 6:12 amOops. Meant 218 in my post above (sorry)
July 24th, 2007 at 6:13 am