“When I was in the military,
“When I was in the military,
they gave me a medal for killing two men and a discharge for loving one.” — the tombstone epitaph of decorated Air Force Sgt. Leonard Matlovich, whose “medals, uniform and other personal effects make up the centerpiece of ‘Out Ranks,’ a new exhibit that documents the tortured relationship between gay troops and the U.S. military from World War II to the present.”
Matlovich, who died in 1988, was a decorated Air Force sergeant who came out to his commanding officer a month before the fall of Saigon, hoping to challenge the government’s ban on gay service members. In 1975, the idea of an openly gay combat veteran was incongruous enough to land him on the cover of Time magazine.
The goal of the show, though, is to illustrate that gays are and always have served their country, often with honor and always under the threat of dishonorable discharge. It opened on Flag Day as momentum builds in Congress for repealing the “Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell, Don’t Pursue” policy adopted under President Bill Clinton.
See photos and video from the exhibit HERE.
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Damn, I guess no gives a shit.
June 16th, 2007 at 8:05 pmThank you, veterans.
We should thank every veteran for service to this country.
June 16th, 2007 at 8:21 pmi have lived near fort brag in north carolina for many years …off and on. I know many military people and it is common knowledge that many, even the ones in the highest of positions and special forces have what they call a “little buddy”. someone they have sex with..the person they can be with when they are far away from home. there are so many bi-sexual men in the military that is is unbelievable. so, i wonder, if they are bi, are they allowed to speak of it and do it but when they are gay they are not allowed. i wonder what are the real rules for their discrimination.
June 16th, 2007 at 8:36 pmThank you, veterans.
We should thank every veteran for service to this country.
Comment by Zooey — June 16, 2007 @ 8:21 pm
Zooey, it was an honor and a privilege to serve on the front lines of the Cold War. (West Germany, which, technically, no longer exists). And to know now that I was doing it for wonderful people like you makes me glad I did it.
June 16th, 2007 at 8:48 pmI am married for 34+ years.
June 16th, 2007 at 9:44 pmWould I take a shower with a gay person.
YES!
They are no different than me.
Why do we judge a persons sexual orientation against their love of their country?
Ask Bush or Clinton.
They are people just as we are.
Judge people as to who they are, not what they are.
Get the government out of morality. It is a personal choice.
And to know now that I was doing it for wonderful people like you makes me glad I did it.
Comment by Wayne A. Schneider
Thank you, Wayne. For your service, and beng such a fantastic person. :)
June 16th, 2007 at 9:49 pmComment by Zooey — June 16, 2007 @ 9:49 pm
Aw, shucks, Zoo. ‘Tweren’t nuthin’. For you? Anything.
June 16th, 2007 at 9:59 pmMistress Z, you’re welcome.
June 16th, 2007 at 10:37 pmAt Sharon’s resort, vets fish free, so today, I told her my service number, and I fished for free!
That is one great epitaph. It really highlights the righty mentality (including what they decide is ok for us to watch on TV). Violence…good. Sex…bad. I would kinda rather have a whole lotta sex then kill a whole lot of people.
June 16th, 2007 at 10:52 pmMatlovich, who died in 1988, was a decorated Air Force sergeant who came out to his commanding officer a month before the fall of Saigon, hoping to challenge the government’s ban on gay service members.
And next month he will also be featured in another exhibit commemorating history’s worst examples of poor timing.
June 16th, 2007 at 10:55 pmKilo=jacka$$
June 16th, 2007 at 11:12 pmBut you would know nothing about standing up for what you believe in, would you, Kilo?
June 16th, 2007 at 11:12 pm“… there are so many bi-sexual men in the military that is is unbelievable…”
Comment by beijair
Yeah, but I’ll wager not as many as in the GOP… (snicker… snicker…)
June 16th, 2007 at 11:20 pmYeah, but I’ll wager not as many as in the GOP… (snicker… snicker…)
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — June 16, 2007 @ 11:20 pm
(snorting laughter)
June 16th, 2007 at 11:24 pm(snorting laughter)
Comment by Jane E. Schneider
Well, SOMEBODY had to say it…
June 16th, 2007 at 11:29 pmLOL. Missed the point much did we ?
Watch the movie Titanic again. When the boat is capsizing and people are falling to their deaths in the icy Atlantic, turn your Dolby 5.1 up and see if you can hear in the background one of the ship’s chefs complaining that the soup doesn’t have enough salt.
A lot of people don’t catch it the first time because of the massive fkn disaster that is preoccupying every other person who could otherwise give a shit about that comparatively insignificant problem.
June 16th, 2007 at 11:30 pmAny closer now ?
Watch the movie Titanic again.
Comment by Kilo
Okay… so the Titanic is… the Brush Administration… and the chef complaining about the salt is George… and you’re… Kate Winslet???
WTF??? What do you guys put in the water in Albania???
June 16th, 2007 at 11:34 pmOk, Kilo, Titanic, Iraq, salted soup. Dude, you really need an introduction to reality. Crazy f^ck.
June 16th, 2007 at 11:36 pmThat is one great epitaph. It really highlights the righty mentality (including what they decide is ok for us to watch on TV). Violence…good. Sex…bad. I would kinda rather have a whole lotta sex then kill a whole lot of people.
Comment by JPark — June 16, 2007 @ 10:52 pm
Reminds me of a George Carlin bit where he said, “I don’t remember who but someone once said I would rather have my children see a movie of two people making love than of two people trying to kill one another.” He then went on “take it a step further and substitute the word “f*ck” for the word “kill” in all those movie cliches.:
‘Okay, Sheriff. We’re gonna f*ck ya now. But we’re gonna f*ck ya sloooow.’
‘F*ck the Ump! F*ck the Ump! F*ck the Ump!’
‘Go easy on that clutch, Bill, you’ll f*ck that engine.’”
I think there were more but it was so very long ago. Thanks for bringing up a pleasant memory.
June 16th, 2007 at 11:40 pmWayne, Carlin is a great at pointing out hypocrisy. The guy is more subtle than you would think.
June 16th, 2007 at 11:47 pmOkay… so the Titanic is… the Brush Administration… and the chef complaining about the salt is George… and you’re… Kate Winslet???
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — June 16, 2007 @ 11:34 pm
“…that comparatively insignificant problem.”
Comment by Kilo — June 16, 2007 @ 11:30 pm
Um, I think the “salt” is Kilo?
June 16th, 2007 at 11:51 pmJane, it is funny that Kilo brings up salt. It has actually caused as many wars as oil.
June 16th, 2007 at 11:53 pm“… salt. It has actually caused as many wars as oil.”
Comment by JPark — June 16, 2007 @ 11:53 pm
Understandably–it was the only way to keep uncooked meat from spoiling quickly.
Wayne sez: The reason working people get paid a “salary” is because Roman soldiers were paid in salt. (Brought to you by Wayne’s Teaching Services(TM) – “If you want to teach someone a lesson, send them to Wayne!”)
June 17th, 2007 at 12:00 amI’d think that Kilo would be petrified of salt, as it is toxic to slugs.
June 17th, 2007 at 12:01 amReminds me of a George Carlin bit where he said, “I don’t remember who but someone once said I would rather have my children see a movie of two people making love than of two people trying to kill one another.â€
Comment by Wayne A. Schneider
There’s an old Lenny Bruce routine that’s similar. Very funny, tragic figure, Mr. Bruce, and well worth listening to.
June 17th, 2007 at 12:02 amLOL. Missed the point much did we ?
Comment by Kilo — June 16, 2007 @ 11:30 pm
I must be honest, Mr. Kilo, I have seen only part of “Titanic.” The scene you describe is one of an artist (in this case, the chef) doing what he loved in life (namely, cooking) despite the panic of all others on the ship. He knew he was going to die, so he went out making soup.
My claim (even though, I do not remember the scene) is that it was not a case of “poor timing,” there is no way that the actor/actress accidentally uttered those words, especially not after the panic had already ensued.
If you were talking about the chef-character (not the actor), again, it is not a case of “poor timing.” Just as in the case of Matlovich (and us all), the chef had no control over his own fate, he could not have “timed” his destiny (unless he took his own life).
But if you mean to be taken literally at your word:
And next month he will also be featured in another exhibit commemorating history’s worst examples of poor timing.
Comment by Kilo — June 16, 2007 @ 10:55 pm
I would have to agree, your example of “poor timing” is one of the worst that I have heard.
June 17th, 2007 at 12:13 amVery funny, tragic figure, Mr. Bruce, and well worth listening to.
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — June 17, 2007 @ 12:02 am
Agreed. He was definitely ahead of his time. And the crap he got from the government over what he was saying was too much. It always amazes me when people tout that we have it good here because we have, among other things, the right to free speech. But try to exercise that right during a war, and they throw you in the slammer. It’s hard to fathom how the Supreme Court could conclude that speaking out against a war could damage national security somehow. That argument is predicated on the assumption that there would never, ever be any reason to portest a war. Inane.
June 17th, 2007 at 12:15 amAnd next month he will also be featured in another exhibit commemorating history’s worst examples of poor timing.
Comment by Kilo — June 16, 2007 @ 10:55 pm
The only way I can figure that his actions would be an example of “poor timing” is if everyone knew in advance the exact date when we were going to pull out of Vietnam. Was that the case?
June 17th, 2007 at 12:17 amPrimus, that was the most thought I have ever seen you put into anything. I am impressed. You slapped down a nasty, retarded troll. Nice job :)
June 17th, 2007 at 12:24 amWayne sez: The reason working people get paid a “salary†is because Roman soldiers were paid in salt. (Brought to you by Wayne’s Teaching Services(TM) – “If you want to teach someone a lesson, send them to Wayne!â€)
Comment by Jane E. Schneider
The salt thing? T’is true, t’is true. I took 4 yrs of Latin in highschool. That’s why I know where Latin America is today!
BTW, if you want that little “â„¢” thingy, on a Mac, it’s “Option-2″…
June 17th, 2007 at 12:25 amHonestly, I just remember Kate Winslet’s breasts :)
June 17th, 2007 at 12:25 amHonestly, I just remember Kate Winslet’s breasts :)
Comment by JPark
Yes, and all Kilo can remember is Lenny DiCaprio’s enchanting “man-smell”…
June 17th, 2007 at 12:27 amFolks, it’s been a wonderful round of Whack-A-Trollâ„¢, but I must go…
June 17th, 2007 at 12:27 amPrimus, that was the most thought I have ever seen you put into anything. I am impressed. You slapped down a nasty, retarded troll. Nice job :)
Comment by JPark — June 17, 2007 @ 12:24 am
When I read Kilo’s twaddle I was baffled, I honestly did not see how that scene could possibly relate to what he had said earlier. I still don’t…
June 17th, 2007 at 12:28 amMistress Z, you’re welcome.
At Sharon’s resort, vets fish free, so today, I told her my service number, and I fished for free!
Comment by RUCerious — June 16, 2007 @ 10:37 pm
I’m so glad you went to Sharon’s resort, RUC. The TP people are starting to meet each other!
You have to keep going back until you catch something — then you have to keep going back because you’re catching. :)
June 17th, 2007 at 12:30 amPrimus, I would have thought he would have referenced the orchestra scene. Play on. If you love something and you are going to die then I would guess you should die doing what you love. I don’t see what Kilo has a problem with.
June 17th, 2007 at 12:31 am“I’m so glad you went to Sharon’s resort, RUC. The TP people are starting to meet each other!”
That is very cool. Like you I am probably 3 states away from any TP poster (except Shane, I think). We midwesterners have it pretty good but we are pretty scattered.
June 17th, 2007 at 12:34 amAu contraire JPark, I think you are fairly cogent!~
June 17th, 2007 at 12:58 amI don’t think Kilo was being a troll.
I think he was just saying that it was unfortunate that Sgt. Matlovich decided to challenge the situation in the military just before the military and the public both became completely focused on something else (the withdrawal).
If the Sgt. had brought it up during much more stable times, the media may have shone a bit of light on it.
June 17th, 2007 at 1:01 amLOL, not scatterbrained RU, but thank you!
June 17th, 2007 at 1:04 amvorda, no, Kilo is and always been a troll. Stick around.
June 17th, 2007 at 1:05 amvorda, no, Kilo is and always been a troll. Stick around.
Comment by JPark — June 17, 2007 @ 1:05 am
Better yet, go to the “Judge orders domestic surveillance docs public” thread and see how trollish he is. What a maroon!
June 17th, 2007 at 1:10 amJane, it doesn’t matter, either he realizes Kilo is a troll or he is a troll himself.
June 17th, 2007 at 1:31 amYeah. Come to think of it have you considered voting him out of office ?
June 17th, 2007 at 1:36 amAfter 35 years it does seem like he’s due.
Kilo, Der.
June 17th, 2007 at 1:47 amIn order to qualify as a troll, wouldn’t someone need to disagree with me ?
That’s generally how the definition works.
Yes do go to that other discussion. And witness you posting no such disagreement with me among the 200+ posts there.
Being a moron might be one excuse for that. Your’s is ?
June 17th, 2007 at 2:16 amNo, Kilo, the definition of troll is that you are here to hijack a thread with disinformation (ok, that is my definition). Congrats, Karl is going to give you a bonus.
June 17th, 2007 at 2:20 amI guess you don’t actually fit my definiton of troll, Kilo. You actually don’t come up with any information OR misinformation. You are just kinda…there.
June 17th, 2007 at 2:22 amComment by JPark — June 17, 2007 @ 2:22 am
Didn’t I demonstrate quite clearly to everyone on that thread that responding to him is an exercise in futility? Save your brain cells, friend. You’ll thank yourself later. :)
June 17th, 2007 at 2:27 am“Zooey, it was an honor and a privilege to serve on the front lines of the Cold War. (West Germany, which, technically, no longer exists). And to know now that I was doing it for wonderful people like you makes me glad I did it.”
Wayne, thank you for your service. I am also thankful for my fathers service, grandfather’s service and my great grandfathers service (WWII and WWI respectively with many medals to prove it). OF course my family fought in worthwhile wars (except for my fathers…Vietnam was pointless) but the right would call us traitors because we are against pre-emptive wars against non-threats. Don’t you just LOVE chickenhawks?
June 17th, 2007 at 2:30 amHey, Wayne, you are right. Sometimes I just feel like getting dirty.
June 17th, 2007 at 2:31 amJPark,
You are welcome and I am honored.
June 17th, 2007 at 2:36 amBeing a moron might be one excuse for that. Your’s is ?
Comment by Kilo — June 17, 2007 @ 2:16 am
I don’t need any excuse. Why would I bother posting my disagreement to your nonsensical bullshite, when Wayne and others have done such a fine job already? A troll is a troll is a troll, whether each and every person on a thread responds to it or not.
June 17th, 2007 at 2:37 amHey, Wayne, you are right. Sometimes I just feel like getting dirty.
Comment by JPark — June 17, 2007 @ 2:31 am
I understand what you mean. Some time soon I’ll either forget this lesson I learned (I almost started doing the same thing with that moron, m12) or I’ll get a hankering for a fight and start lacing into another idiot. But I think I can go the rest of the weekend without making the same mistake.
June 17th, 2007 at 2:40 amKilo, my family has served for 3 generations in wars (weird timing I guess). You are not even FROM this country. Tell me who deserves to speak. Dammit, Wayne served…and you still spout your crap. All I have to say is join up (I am guessing you are an Aussie, you can come fight) or shut your hole.
June 17th, 2007 at 2:44 amBeing a moron might be one excuse for that. Your’s is ?
Comment by Kilo — June 17, 2007 @ 2:16 am
Furthermore, if I see a pile of dog turd on the sidewalk, I don’t address it, I just step over it and warn others not to step in it.
June 17th, 2007 at 2:44 amWayne, m12 is annoying. He just tempts the hell out of me.
June 17th, 2007 at 2:46 amDon’t you just LOVE chickenhawks?
Comment by JPark — June 17, 2007 @ 2:30 am
I know what you mean.
You mean about them being gay, right? Just kidding! :D I’m such a wit.
Have you ever read John W. Dean’s excellent book “Conservatives Without Conscience”? He gives an explanation of why people like “them” think the way they do.
Spoiler Alert: I’m going to summarize it in four words.
They can’t help themselves.
June 17th, 2007 at 2:50 amWayne, m12 is annoying. He just tempts the hell out of me.
Comment by JPark — June 17, 2007 @ 2:46 am
Then I suggest you stay out of the Michael Moore thread. He’s going on about Adam Smith, apparently without realizing that Adam Smith’s “World” did not yet go through the industrial revolution, so his theories did not necessarily take mass production into account. (At least, that’s what I understand. I could be wrong. Am I?)
June 17th, 2007 at 2:53 amOh, jeez, Wayne, I missed that one. I am an accountant. I would LOVE to lecture that little toad on the economy. Adam Smith was a freaking moron (maybe not but he didn’t have the experience of the 20th century economics).
June 17th, 2007 at 2:59 amAdam Smith was a freaking moron (maybe not but he didn’t have the experience of the 20th century economics).
Comment by JPark — June 17, 2007 @ 2:59 am
He didn’t even have the experience of 19th century economics, did he? When was his time?
June 17th, 2007 at 3:01 amWayne, Smith believed in a totally free market. He believed in the inherent goodness of people. the 1870s proved him wrong. He was like Marx. His theories would work great in a perfect world where people weren’t selfish f^ckers.
June 17th, 2007 at 3:02 amWayne, he died in 1790. He had no clue who Andrew Carnegie was.
June 17th, 2007 at 3:03 amOf course, now righties jerk-off over the theories of Milton Friedman. In other words warmed over Adam Smith BS. Reagan was horrible for the economy (trickle down). If it weren’t for the government spending billions we would have had a recession nobody would forget.
June 17th, 2007 at 3:07 amJPark, I seem to vaguely recall hearing the term “economies of scale” and I thought it was linked to him somehow. Was that right? If so, is it because he talked about it, or is that what did his theories in?
One thing I have been concluding lately is that a society of equals is incompatible with capitalism, since the goal of capitalism, is essence, is to create as much financial inequality as possible, i.e., you try to get as much of other people’s money for yourself as possible, or at least control of it. And because everyone charges money for what they have, financial inequality means that some are going to go without while some go with excess.
But I might just be blowing smoke here. I have no formal training in economics.
June 17th, 2007 at 3:12 amJPark, ah, yes, Milton Friedman. TANSTAAFL! It occurs to me that you rarely hear dirt poor people sing the praises of an unregulated free market, which is what the righties would love to have. They seem to have this bizarre notion that anything that takes away from the bottom line is inherently bad. That is why some businesses don’t bother keeping up on their safety equipment, because that costs money. And they try to give out raises as infrequently as possible because that costs money. And they certainly don’t want to pay a dime in that taxes, because that costs money. Sounds to me like greed is the driving motivation behind unregulated free markets.
But then, I probably got that one wrong, too.
June 17th, 2007 at 3:16 amWayne, economies of scale means the larger the economy the more that economy is able to accomplish. For instance, a large company could pay for 401ks for its employees while a small company would struggle to pay for health care.
Honestly, capitalism is the best system going…if it is regulated. We had virtually free markets in 1929. You know what happened then. Regulation and taxation that spreads the wealth is very good for the health of the economy. Financial inequality is VERY bad for everybody, even the rich who love it.
June 17th, 2007 at 3:21 amNo, Wayne, you are not wrong at all. John Maynard Keynes is the man you want to listen to. He promoted deficit spending when there is a recession and promoted the government saving money when there is inflation. It is fricking common sense. When goods are rare you spend your money and when goods are common you save you money. It may not make sense to the average consumer but it would help our economy if the gov’t would follow his advice.
June 17th, 2007 at 3:27 amJPark, I would certainly agree with the point that it is good if it is regulated. I have sometimes wondered if a different system that mixes some theories together and applies certain principles to some things and others to other things might be possible. I have nospecifics, and about the only thing I can think of as any kind of example of what I would like to see if essential things like healthcare not be conducted with a purely capitalistic system. It’s a dream, I know. And you would certainly not get so many applicants to medical school if the money wasn’t going to be as good as some of them hoped. But that’s good because, as I said before, I’d rather be treated by a doctor who cares more about me getting better than about making money off treating me.
Oh, and lawyers would no longer be paid in cash but in office supplies, instead. They may have to get second jobs for real money, but that’s their problem. There are far too many lawyers out there as it is. Perhaps some of them should look for another line of work.
June 17th, 2007 at 3:29 amWayne, you are right that a mix is what is needed. Marx and Smith both had good ideas. They were both idealists, though. They really had no clue about human nature. The only problem is getting rid of the right wing losers and finding a balance between socialism and capitalism.
June 17th, 2007 at 3:33 amEurope is light-years ahead of us.
June 17th, 2007 at 3:36 amI do disagree with you about the lawyers. You get a good lawyer by paying. If you want John Edwards you have to pay for John Edwards. Now, if you had a subsidy for a lawyer instead of being forced to take a public defender that would be good.
June 17th, 2007 at 3:41 amJPark, the lawyer crack was only in jest. We could pay them a little bit of money. :D
But you have to admit that there are a lot of them in the US. Doesn’t that mean that supply is likely higher than demand? Wouldn’t that mean their fees should get lower?
Wouldn’t that, in turn, eventually drive some of them out of the career field?
Like I said, I have only a vague understanding of economics. All I remember from college in the one class I took was that it was a struggle to stay awake during the class, on account of the teacher was as monotonous as Ben Stein. I eventually dropped it. I figured if I was going to drag my ass out of bed just to attend a class I was going to fall asleep in, I might as well just stay in bed and be far more comfortable.
I was a math major, so I used logic a lot. :)
June 17th, 2007 at 3:48 amI’m going to pack it in for the night. Goodnight, JPark, it’s been fun (again!) Do you want Wayne to write you a “Goodnight Poem”? :-D
June 17th, 2007 at 3:48 amWayne, lawyers are a necessary evil and a lot of them are very evil. I don’t know how to fix that. I am just a money guy!!!
Wayne, I was ok in math, I did my Accounting math requisites. Statistics was a lot of fun but one of the toughest classes I have ever taken.
June 17th, 2007 at 3:52 amJane and Wayne, good night. If you have a Goodnight Poem on hand I would love to hear it :)
June 17th, 2007 at 3:52 amStatistics was a lot of fun but one of the toughest classes I have ever taken.
Comment by JPark — June 17, 2007 @ 3:52 am
Though I never took a statistics class (I never finished college, either), I have always been suspicious of it because, as I understood it, the results are always just a probability, but people treat them like they are absolutes, and they end up getting misused. You’ve probably seen me mention my favorite statistic: 85% of all statistics are made up on the spot.
Do I have one handy? Not yet, but it’s 3:58 right now, let’s see what I can do.
Good night, JPark, I must embark
That Steve Carrell’s humongous ark.
And if I am to make my mark,
I must not be inside a shark.
And if the light should turn to dark,
And somewhere someone’s dog should bark,
I’ll raise my voice and bid you hark
And say good night to you, JPark.
Good night, JPark. See you tomorrow, I hope. It’s been fun and I appreciate the lessons I’ve learned.
June 17th, 2007 at 4:05 amWayne, statistics was a b!tch, it was all about these the symbols I have never seen!!!!
I am impressed. The poem was good and Steve Carrell is great!!! :)
June 17th, 2007 at 4:22 amI don’t know about other schools but mine taught me the tools to take a poll…with the standard deviation. That is the problem. Most people ignore the standard deviation and take the poll % as gospel. Ok, gospel is a misnomer. I would not trust any gospel :)
June 17th, 2007 at 4:27 amAt Sharon’s resort, vets fish free, so today, I told her my service number, and I fished for free!
Comment by RUCerious
I’m a bit late in getting on this thread, so I hope Sharon sees this. In any case, she obviously knows a lot more about supporting our troops and veterans than any phony in this Bushevik administration.
June 17th, 2007 at 10:16 amI believe Barry Goldwater put it best, ” You don’t have to be straight to shoot straight”.
June 17th, 2007 at 2:52 pmI was in the navy and I thought I was the only one surprised by the “special friends” some of the guys had away from home, wives and families. I had submariner roomates in San Diego who told me all kinds of things. Guess its like prison, straight guys in awkward situations. I figured cheating on my wife was cheating, regardless..Lots of guys left it at that and took matters into our qwn hands. (Excuse the pun).
June 18th, 2007 at 10:27 amI’ve been to Sgt. Leonard Matlovich’s grave in Washington DC.
He was an honored Veteran who served his country well. It’s too bad his country didn’t honor him as well.
June 18th, 2007 at 10:36 am