U.S. Citing Conservative Calls To Bomb Iran To Pressure Diplomats
U.S. Citing Conservative Calls To Bomb Iran To Pressure Diplomats
Calls for a U.S. military strike on Iran have grown in recent weeks. Sen. Joe Lieberman (I-CT) notably called for Americans “to be prepared to take aggressive military action” against Iran. Norman Podhoretz wrote “The Case for Bombing Iran,” the cover story in the latest Commentary magazine, “widely regarded as the leading outlet for neoconservative writing.” Other prominent neoconservatives, including William Kristol, Fred Kagan, and John Bolton have echoed this line.
The calls have apparently become serious enough that Under Secretary of State Nicholas Burns, “the chief American strategist on Iran,” has begun using them to pressure foreign diplomats. The New York Times reports:
Mr. Burns and officials from the Treasury Department have been trying to use the mounting conservative calls for a military strike to press Europe and Russia to expand economic sanctions against Iran. Just last week, Israel’s transportation minister and former defense minister, Shaul Mofaz, visited Washington and told Ms. Rice that sanctions must be strong enough to get the Iranians to stop enriching uranium by the end of 2007.
While Mr. Mofaz did not threaten a military strike, Israeli officials said he told Ms. Rice that by the end of the year, Israel “would have to reassess where we are.”
The Times reports that Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice has “increasingly moved toward” the position that “a military strike would be disastrous.” But Vice President Cheney’s office is well known to feel very differently. In February, the Washington Post reported that John Hannah, Cheney’s national security adviser, said during a meeting that the administration considers 2007 “the year of Iran” and “indicated that a U.S. attack was a real possibility.”
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These idiots are pressuring an attack on Iran using the advice of political pundits!?
Insane!
June 16th, 2007 at 12:05 pmIdiots… and insane… whatever made you use those words to describe our leaders? How… how… unpatriotic of you. Remember, Zooey, we’re fighting them over there so we won’t have to quit driving SUVs over here.
Now, everyone go shopping!
June 16th, 2007 at 12:08 pmSo now it’s “You better do what we want or bushco may heed the advice of some crazies and bomb Iran.”
No wonder the world is laughing at the USA. . . . we’re represented by clowns – and giving clowns a bad name!
June 16th, 2007 at 12:09 pmThese idiots are pressuring an attack on Iran using the advice of political pundits!?
Insane!
Comment by Zooey
Political pundits who have been consistently wrong on virtually every issue, too. Any sane group of people would ask Kristol what to do and immediately do just the opposite, every time.
June 16th, 2007 at 12:12 pmOHHH OHHHH! Looks like Condi is next on the Darth/Rover Hit List. She better check under her hood before she starts her car.
This Cabal is looking more and more like a bad Fellini movie every day.
June 16th, 2007 at 12:13 pmBlurring of the boundaries is a strength of this administration.
June 16th, 2007 at 12:13 pmNow, everyone go shopping!
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity
Sorry. What was I thinking?
June 16th, 2007 at 12:13 pmPolitical pundits who have been consistently wrong on virtually every issue, too. Any sane group of people would ask Kristol what to do and immediately do just the opposite, every time.
Comment by gummitch
Exactly! They sit confidently on Fox proclaiming the way things ought to be, and they are always WRONG!
I always thought the idea that Busho was trying to bring on the End Times was silly. Not so much now…
June 16th, 2007 at 12:15 pmApparently, you have to hit a neocon between the eyes with a 2×4 before they will pay attention.
They bungled Iraq, now they want to cover it up by bungling Iran.
Stupid is as stupid does.
June 16th, 2007 at 12:19 pmalong the same lines … immigration or iran :
‘Talk radio is running America’
By: Steve Benen @ 5:30 PM – PDT
Poor Trent Lott.
Comments by Republican senators on Thursday suggested that they were feeling the heat from conservative critics of the bill, who object to provisions offering legal status. The Republican whip, Trent Lott of Mississippi, who supports the bill, said: “Talk radio is running America. We have to deal with that problem.â€
[...]
You mean right-wing blowhards like Limbaugh can rile up a large audience based on nothing but demagoguery? And that conservative audience will bombard Hill offices with whatever they last heard on the radio?
Welcome to our world, Trent.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/06/15/‘talk-radio-is-running-america’/
June 16th, 2007 at 12:19 pm…
I always thought the idea that Busho was trying to bring on the End Times was silly. Not so much now…
Comment by Zooey
No sh*t… “Tnight, on Faux News… the Rapture – Fiction or Fable? Is it really coming, and will all the disbelievers and evildoers be left behind?”
June 16th, 2007 at 12:21 pmCan anyone tell me how the Weakly (sub)Standard with Fred Barnes and Bill Kristol at the helm may be the most ridiculous rag to come out on any political issue?? When they come on Faux NoNooz, it a given that whatever they say will be WRONG!!!
Kinda like Drudge with his bad articles and rarely posting a correction.
June 16th, 2007 at 12:22 pmBush Regime plans on attacking Iran for real, so this is not a pressure game.
June 16th, 2007 at 12:22 pmFirst, we bomb Iran. Next, Iran attacks American forces in Iraq. Then you can expect one more reason we’ll be stuck in Iraq – possibly with a draft added to the mix.
Bombing Iran, like occupying Iraq would be a huge mistake. Before we attacked Iraq, Iran was one of our biggest allies on the war on terror, they hate al qaeda and they hate the Taliban. Yet we throw any goodwill out the door with this kind of talk.
I have seen the enemy, and he is us.
June 16th, 2007 at 12:25 pmYou can watch sicko for free on youtube right now if you get there quik enough.
June 16th, 2007 at 12:26 pmNo sh*t… “Tnight, on Faux News… the Rapture – Fiction or Fable? Is it really coming, and will all the disbelievers and evildoers be left behind?â€
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity
Good one, TRoS. :)
Actually, only we evil doers will be left behind. Why, you might ask? Because once things go to shit on this planet, the most messed up of the faithful will realize Jeebus ain’t coming for them and will commit suicide. We’ll be cleaning up the mess — as per usual.
June 16th, 2007 at 12:29 pmLying Us Into War, Again
I don’t see how any honest man can believe that Iran is a threat to the United States or its neighbors. Iran has not invaded anyone in the past 100 years. Iran has from the beginning insisted that its nuclear program is for peaceful energy purposes, and there has been no evidence – I repeat, no evidence – to the contrary. The Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty explicitly authorizes countries to enrich uranium. In other words, Iran has not done anything illegal.
Iran has no intercontinental missiles, and the only country in the Middle East with nuclear weapons is Israel. Please note that the United States flatly refuses to endorse the idea of a nuclear-free Middle East. Iran has signed the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. Israel has refused to sign it. Iran admits international inspectors. Israel flatly refuses to allow international inspectors. The only country in today’s Middle East with weapons of mass destruction and a history of invading and occupying other people’s countries is Israel.
As for Iran’s alleged threat to “wipe Israel off the map,” that is propaganda based on a mistranslation. Nobody in Iran has ever threatened to attack Israel militarily. The accurate quotes from Iranians have been simply that Israel as a Zionist state will eventually collapse, just as the Soviet Union as a communist state did. Iranian officials have even explicitly said they have no desire or intention of attacking Israel.
You should ask yourself, What is the real motive of people who deal in lies?
http://www.antiwar.com/reese/?articleid=11144
June 16th, 2007 at 12:29 pmThis madness increases daily..Now with traitor Joe and Israel pushing for invasion of yet another country we are in one hell of a mess…When do we get our country back.? Or do we get it back at all.? We know how we got this sick bunch in office, but how come I never noticed just how much Israel dictate’s policy to the U.S…Guess I have been a sleep walker before now, no more..Blessings
June 16th, 2007 at 12:29 pmThe consequences of an attack on Iran are beyone immagination. The most immediate and predictable consequence is that there would be an onslaught on our troops in Iraq…we might be in the same position as we were at the end of the Vietnam conflict — running for the exits. Of course the NeoCons are not concerned about troop casualties.
June 16th, 2007 at 12:30 pmSo it looks like none of you want to bomb Iran!
June 16th, 2007 at 12:30 pmWhen was Isreal declared the 51st state of the Union?
June 16th, 2007 at 12:30 pmYou can watch sicko for free on youtube right now if you get there quik enough.
Comment by old hack
I would consider that wrong, since that movie was hijacked. I’ll see it in the theater.
You go ahead, if you don’t have a problem viewing stolen goods.
June 16th, 2007 at 12:31 pmOf course the attack on Iran is real. They had this planned out for years. They just needed to get a good, god-fearin’, greedy neo-con into office to accomplish it. Iraq and Iran sit on an awful lot of oil. Iran doing its nuke bit is playing right into it.
I bet we’re going to be the first country to use a nuke. We did Japan rather nicely, why not Iran?
And how many in our ignorant country is going to cheer when we drop that bomb? Way to go, y’all! Good bomb, droppin’! Gimme a beer.
If it wasn’t so sick, depraved, disgusting, immoral, and plain crazy, it might almost be laughable. But no matter how much we laugh at this admin or at the morons in our own country, I fear for the lives of every person in the world. None of us are safe. Not with Bush/Chaney’s fingers on the button.
We’re so fu(ked. All of us.
June 16th, 2007 at 12:32 pmHere goes some more propaganda…..!!!
June 16th, 2007 at 12:33 pmIf people believe this, they’ve gone totally over the edge! This government and it’s pundits cannot be trusted with anything these days.
June 16th, 2007 at 12:34 pmIt’s patently clear that our horrendous karma is catching up with us and driving us over the brink into total and unparalleled insanity.
June 16th, 2007 at 12:35 pmVeritas, you’re right. Our administration is completely over the brink and totally and unparallelly insane.
June 16th, 2007 at 12:36 pmThe day Bush attacks Iran, then the Iranian army would flood into Iraq to attack our bases. Iranian troops would also cross into Kuwait killing the Emir and burning Kuwait City to the ground. Iran would sink oil tankers at the entrance to the Persian Gulf and most likely hit our Navy fleet with Chinese missiles and torpedoes. Also the Iranians would attack the UAE capturing or killing scores of Western business men at the resorts. It would become global WWIII.
June 16th, 2007 at 12:37 pm#27 And this would then make the BushCo NeoCon Cabal feel they were right and bringing on the Rapture.
Too bad they have to drag the rest of us into the sewer with them.
June 16th, 2007 at 12:39 pmFor once, I would agree with Condi Rice on this one. A military strike will totally tank this country. It’s already in progress of being destroyed; another aggressive proactive strike against a sovereign nation will unite the rest of the world against us and it will be ‘curtains’ for the US this time.
June 16th, 2007 at 12:40 pmBesides, what “military” are they considering using for this new strike? Our already-depleted one in Iraq? I’d say not. If they call up a “draft”, you will see the largest mass exodus of draft-age men ever in history. Recuitment is down and the military is almost totally defunct.
June 16th, 2007 at 12:41 pmThe Bush Legacy IS the Rapture, folks. It will be his singular legacy.
June 16th, 2007 at 12:42 pmThe polatician’s in D,C. need a new filter system for all their air and water supply…Clearly the present Gov. is doing to them what it has tried to do to all of us for over 50 year’s..Kill brain cell’s and replace with their twisted plan’s…Blessing, they are in short supply but I send them out any way.
June 16th, 2007 at 12:42 pmI think we’ve found the location of the newly reconsituted Fourth Reich.
-GSD
June 16th, 2007 at 12:42 pmWe’d better start to hear some tough talk from the Dems now! They’re failing the people miserably at this point….let’s hear some chatter about this, please.
June 16th, 2007 at 12:43 pmupside00 > Bush would retaliate with nukes after our Navy fleet is attacked and an aircraft carrier sinks with all on board into the Gulf. After that anything might happen, but yes the far-right wants the end of the world to meet Jesus.
June 16th, 2007 at 12:43 pmAs long as this “war agenda” remains on the fore, the GOP won’t have an ice cube’s chance in hell of sitting in the white house for a very, very, very long time.
June 16th, 2007 at 12:44 pmHi Jay – I fear that you’re absolutely right. Bush tanked every business venture he’s ever touched and his goal in this presidency was to tank an entire country which took 200 years to build – now someone as sick as him would consider this to be a supreme accomplishment. Sicko!
June 16th, 2007 at 12:45 pmIf the rapture takes all of the neocons, republic party members, and true believers – only the meek will be left behind. And, you know, a very influential Jew once said that the meek would inherit the earth.
The Rapture: is it a good thing, or a bad thing?
June 16th, 2007 at 12:45 pmta-ta TP buddies! Catch you later!
June 16th, 2007 at 12:45 pmCan someone please explain to me what these criminals, murderers (can’t think of word or words bad enough to express my fury) are trying to accomplish by setting the entire middle east on fire? What is their goal? Do they want to be rulers over a graveyard? They’ve created more terrorists than we will ever be able to eliminate.
If it was about the oil, which I believed it was, how do they think they can get at it while being shot at from fifty different directions. Neither can they get it if they turn all of that sand into glass. I keep thinking I’ll wake up one day and find that this was all just a bad dream, but it just keeps getting worse. These people have to be insane. Why can’t we get them out of office NOW?
June 16th, 2007 at 12:48 pmof course if Iraq were to give America its oil then America would NOT attack Iran
June 16th, 2007 at 12:48 pm“So it looks like none of you want to bomb Iran!”
No sane person would think it was a good idea to bomb Iran. The only people who think it is a good idea are the neocons who are behind the military industrial complex. Eternal war, eternal profits for them.
June 16th, 2007 at 12:48 pm“…but yes the far-right wants the end of the world to meet Jesus.”
Comment by Jay Randal — June 16, 2007 @ 12:43 pm
Cheney’s first act after the Rapture will be to have that uber-liberal Jesus waterboarded. If god doesn’t agree and STFU, he’ll be declared an enemy combatant.
June 16th, 2007 at 12:48 pmIt is highly possible that Bush’s attack on Iran could lead to his Waterloo, with the complete slaughter of our troops in Iraq being caught between Syrian army attacking from the West and Iranian army from the East. Baghdad becomes another Stalingrad for US troops.
June 16th, 2007 at 12:49 pmIran’s oil reserves dwarf Iraq’s. Is this making sense, now?
June 16th, 2007 at 12:50 pmWWIII in the making. YUP!
And none of these idiots see that happening. Just like Iraq was going to be the low hanging fruit to acquire oil. Not one of them has a functioning brain cell in their heads. They see what they want to see, they think in terms of $$. There’s no rationality, thought, or reason in any one of these neo-cons.
How to fu(k up the world in 8 easy years, by GWB.
June 16th, 2007 at 12:54 pmKhuzestan in Iran is where all the Oil fields of Iran are, which is near Basra
Pelosi should make it Law that Bush cannot attack Iran without Congress approval – ASAP
June 16th, 2007 at 12:55 pm___ for free on youtube right now if you get there quik enough.
Comment by old hack — June 16, 2007 @ 12:26 pm
NOT COOL.
give michael moore his due.
.
June 16th, 2007 at 12:56 pmHere is a scenario that could happen: After Bush bombs Iranian suspected nuclear installations in Iran in conjunction with Israel. The Iranians hit our Navy fleet off Iran with everything they have. Chinese silk missiles, Russian torpedoes, North Korean mines, etc. It is possible that Bush could end up losing our entire Navy fleet in the process. We have some old vessels in mothballs, so that would be all that would be left. Old worthless ships that Chinese Navy could then sink.
June 16th, 2007 at 12:57 pmMr. Burns and officials from the Treasury Department have been trying to use the mounting conservative calls for a military strike to press Europe and Russia to expand economic sanctions against Iran.
The Mighty Wurlitzer isn’t going to play in Europe; it requires the well-insulated, US political power system to function.
June 16th, 2007 at 12:59 pmIt matters not what Congress does. Bush moves to the beat of the drummer in Chaney’s brain. I don’t think Congress could stop Bush if they tried (and they have to try alot harder than they are now).
That freight train left the station with all the GOP congress going YUP YUP YUP to whatever this admin does from day one. They still do. The GOP in congress are who are preventing things from happening. With a slight majority, you can’t get much done.
We’re on the verge of a new world war and we are the aggressors and the enemy of the world. Soon, it will be US who is invaded. And who’s going to stop it? We don’t have a national defense at home anymore.
It’s a sad state of affairs when America will have to rely on the militias we’ve so feared for so many years. They are the only ones in the country who has the infrastructure in place to defend us. Most of our national guard are already in Iraq.
June 16th, 2007 at 1:00 pmStrap each one of these neocon clowns to a 500 lber and send em down the cute, ala slim pickins!
June 16th, 2007 at 1:00 pmer, down the chute!
June 16th, 2007 at 1:01 pmInstead of just giving Bush $100 million The democrats could have said any further conflicts demand the authorization of Congrtess in the BILL
June 16th, 2007 at 1:01 pm“Other prominent neoconservatives, including William Kristol, Fred Kagan, and John Bolton have echoed this line.”
Which means that this is also Rudy Giuilani’s line, since he’s got Bolton ‘advising’ him, and he thinks that Kristol is always right!
June 16th, 2007 at 1:02 pmThis also reminds me of the Bushit tactic whereby he “answered” the requirements of the authorization of force.
June 16th, 2007 at 1:02 pmHe just reworded each of the requirement paragraphs with no real evidence, and sent it back to the jellyfish congress, who waved their tentacles in applause.
Let’s not forget all the executive orders and signing statements which gave Bush total power in an emergency of his choosing. Congress is virtually persona non grata when that order is executed. Then there is NO stopping him.
Remember, Congress only matters because the constitution says so. And Bush has said it’s nothing but a gotdammed piece of paper.
June 16th, 2007 at 1:04 pmTobey > Some Democrats like Sen. Hillary Clinton want to attack Iran. Her daughter Chelsea will be shielded from being drafted like the Bush twins.
June 16th, 2007 at 1:06 pm(East Hartford-WTNH) _ Senator Joseph Lieberman is refusing to back down from his tough talk on Iran. Earlier in the week, he called for military action against Iran and that opinion is not sitting well with some traditional Lieberman supporters.
Lieberman says he is getting mostly negative responses from people here in Connecticut,
June 16th, 2007 at 1:07 pmThree Iranian Diplomats Briefly Detained in Iraq
June 16th, 2007 at 1:08 pmTobey, he could care less, he’s getting rave reviews from his real constituents in Zi*nLand.
June 16th, 2007 at 1:08 pmNaomi Klein’s article about Gaza in the current isuue of the Nation (online) is a real eye opener. Israel’s economy is now booming after suffering a dot.com bust similar to America’s…and what are they selling??? the war on terror, the state of constant fear that creates a bottomless global demand for devices that watch, listen, contain and target “suspects.” And fear, it turns out, is the ultimate renewable resource.
June 16th, 2007 at 1:12 pmIsrael now sends $1.2 billion in “defense” products to the United States–up dramatically from $270 million in 1999. In 2006 Israel exported $3.4 billion in defense products–well over a billion more than it received in US military aid. That makes Israel the fourth-largest arms dealer in the world, overtaking Britain.
So why is Israel pushing for a war with Iran and a surge in Terrorism??? It’s the Economy, stupid.
It looks like the same groups who got us in Iraq are now trying to get us to fight another war…
Reasons given are the same..WMDS of Iraq just changed to WMDS of Iran…
Both countries did not recognize Israel.
Both countries also were looking to use other than the dollar to sell oil,like accepting the Euro instead.
Neocons and the war machine lords are anxious to fight this grinding war,that might take years,and bankrupt our economy.
Of course,Neocons kids will not particpate in fighting this war that Neocons are pushing to ignite,while majority of Americans want US government to end this war in Iraq.
June 16th, 2007 at 1:13 pmThis is ridiculous. Bush&Co have failed everything they have tried, so now our foreign policy is being determined by political pundits — whose track record has been as dismal as Bush&Co.
June 16th, 2007 at 1:17 pmWho is able to stop this trend?
Lott admitted yesterday that talk radio is in charge.
Now we learn that Kristol and Podhoretz et al are shaping policy.
Is nothing for real any more? Are there no serious diplomats?
Cheney is a ruthless warmonger, whom no one seems to be able to dissuade.
We are in deep trouble if someone doesn’t pull the plug on these guys soon.
veritas > Bush is going to attack Iran before his term of office is up in January 2009. Junior might wait till after the November 2008 election to hit Iran and leave WWIII for the next president. Bush Senior left Somalia in the lap of Bill Clinton, as he left office, so Junior might do the same.
June 16th, 2007 at 1:17 pmAmerica your on your own -
ISREAL reinvading Gaza and trying to control 1.5 million angry Palestinians with the Israeli military. and the prospect of conflict with Lebanon renewing itself this summer, Israel is hardly in a strong position to decide about anything.
June 16th, 2007 at 1:20 pmI Pledge Allegience to the flags of the United States and Israel.
I’m sure I will be called an Anti-Semite for saying this but first you must be a Semite to be discriminated against and most Zionist are Europeans so that kills that argument.
Secondly, there should be no place in government for ANYONE who has dual loyalties, which in our case more love for the State of Israel than the United States. This talking point spewed by BOTH political parties has seriously diminshed our so-called moral standing in the world.
How could you be loyal to a state that spies on you, that has attacked you (U.S.S. Liberty), and that uses you. Enough already.
I am tired of burying my Soldiers for Israel.
It’s time the supporters shed some blood.
Joe LIEberman, Kristol, Rahm. Hillary.
RIP
SGT Stephen R. Sherman
C CO 1-5 IN (STRYKER)
KIA 3 Feb 2005
Mosul, Iraq
Or as the POTUS and his enablers call him,,, comma #1462
June 16th, 2007 at 1:21 pmFinally, the United States has lost whatever slim chance it once had of serving as a stabilizing influence in any of the conflicts in the Middle East, and the last shred of respect it once commanded in the region. Its undisguised efforts to shore up Fatah with training and aid simply backfired, creating a rallying cry for Hamas and driving more Palestinians toward Hamas than attracting them to the supposedly moderate Fatah.
June 16th, 2007 at 1:22 pmNo sane person would think it was a good idea to bomb Iran. The only people who think it is a good idea are the neocons who are behind the military industrial complex. Eternal war, eternal profits for them.
Comment by Kate Henry — June 16, 2007 @ 12:48 pm
Well if you were intent on dominating the Mideast and ceasing control of the Mideast’s oil then attacking Iran is essential. I love how the tacticians here comment about how it would be a mistake or “impossible”. I love how posters under estimate the fact that the US Military has no rival in the world. Our strength lies in our naval battle groups. Morality is another issue and any war has risk!
Regardless, we are going to bomb and then invade Iran no matter what we post here. I know this because it is apparent that we are staging in Iraq. People here believe BS like “global warming can be solved with a tax” or “WW1 was the result of the assignation of the Arch Duke” or “WW2 was the result of Hitler being a mad man” or well just all sorts of FUD and lies.
Many of you don’t realize the truth of resources. In summery in order to survive at all people will kill other people in order to obtain resources. The USA is out of OIL and this push in the Mideast will secure the US in resources and location for several decades to come. In the end the battle will be between the Neocons and China.
There is no stopping any of this people. Where are all of the masses revolting in the USA? They want the oil too! Here look at this link I posted in another thread…
http://clubs.ccsu.edu/Recorder/editorial/editorial_item.asp?NewsID=188
I posted about just such BS many times and everyone blindly subscribes to carbon taxation. People there is, “No taxation without representation!” We can’t buy our way out of this. Mind you I don’t support the war. We essentially have 2 choices here. We can revert to a caveman like existence and completely power down or kill and sterilize everyone we can and cull the global population down to a few million. Those survivors may then live rather than exist in a sea of indifference and idiocy!
What choice do you think they made? To me I think they chose global population reduction through war like what happened twice before!
June 16th, 2007 at 1:26 pm… It’s the Economy, stupid.
Comment by Badger — June 16, 2007 @ 1:12 pm
i’m still not able for forgive my CPA brother when, in 2000,
as i was fretting about the horrors of a possible bush administration,
he said to me, “well, war IS good for the economy”…
and he has 4 young sons…
June 16th, 2007 at 1:33 pm…
Well put, freedomrings.
It is inevitable that the world is running out of resources like oil, water and minerals because there simply are too many of us on this planet and too many of us have way too high standards of living.
If it comes to choosing between being able to live my life and going back to the stone age so that some bozo in Far East, Middle East or Africa gets his/her share too, it’s really not a choice at all. Of course we should take care of ourselves, first.
June 16th, 2007 at 1:38 pmWe essentially have 2 choices here. We can revert to a caveman like existence and completely power down or kill and sterilize everyone we can and cull the global population down to a few million. Those survivors may then live rather than exist in a sea of indifference and idiocy!
Human farmers. Brilliant, I’m not surprised with thinking like this that you can only see two choices. Black and white is it? YOU, and those that think like you don’t even deserve to be human.
June 16th, 2007 at 1:41 pmRe: Population …The big surprise of the past twenty years is that in not one country did fertility stop falling when it reached the replacement rate — 2.1 children per woman.
June 16th, 2007 at 1:52 pmBecause in the past two centuries world population has increased from one billion to nearly six billion, many people still fear that it will keep “exploding” until there are too many people for the earth to support. But that is like fearing that your baby will grow to 1,000 pounds because its weight doubles three times in its first seven years.
FIFTY years from now the world’s population will be declining, with no end in sight. Max Singer
Re: America running out of oil. True, but it is still flush with coal. Nazi germany fought a war with NO OIL, by using Coal Gassification. The Governor of Montana is pushing this. Sure, it would be more expensive that pumping oil out of Saudi Arabia, but we could get by with NO Foreign Oil. Plug in Hybrid cars, fueled by power plants that run on sequestered coal, or solar/wind could also work.
And none of this would be as “disruptive” as another world war.
“2007 the year of Iran”–or possibly as late as 2008, say, mid-October-ish.
June 16th, 2007 at 1:55 pmThese people have destroyed a country, destabilised an entire region of the world, and the think they have any credibility to do anything else?
Their level of entitlement and superiority is mind numbing.
June 16th, 2007 at 2:10 pmThis Cabal is looking more and more like a bad Fellini movie every day.
Comment by upside00
I’m sorry, but Fellini never made a movie this bad.
June 16th, 2007 at 2:21 pmBush Regime plans on attacking Iran for real, so this is not a pressure game.
Comment by Jay Randal
True, and it’s terrifying in its consequences.
June 16th, 2007 at 2:22 pmIt’s patently clear that our horrendous karma is catching up with us and driving us over the brink into total and unparalleled insanity.
Comment by veritas — June 16, 2007 @ 12:35 pm
Veritas, you’re right. Our administration is completely over the brink and totally and unparallelly insane.
Comment by MsJoanne
What did somoene once say… There are no 3rd Acts in American stories?
I agree w/ ya’ll completely. The Bus(h) driver has gone wacko and is taking us all over the high side. Buckle up, folks, it’s going to be a bumpy ride.
June 16th, 2007 at 2:25 pmRemember the bombing of London? What’s going to happen when New York, LA, Boston, and other costal cities are bombed? Don’t know if anyone has the capacity to hit mid America but who knows.
We saw how the government responds to disasters.
If we bomb Iran, does anyone think this is outside the realm of possibility?
June 16th, 2007 at 2:28 pmIf we bomb Iran, does anyone think this is outside the realm of possibility?
Comment by MsJoanne
Hell no. I’d consider it a forgone conclusion. It’s just a matter of when and where. I SHUDDER to think of the karmic payback this country is building up.
June 16th, 2007 at 2:33 pmHuman farmers. Brilliant, I’m not surprised with thinking like this that you can only see two choices. Black and white is it? YOU, and those that think like you don’t even deserve to be human.
Comment by Namtillaku — June 16, 2007 @ 1:41 pm
You and MrX enter a room and there is food for one and a gun. My question to you is what one of those items gets you all of the items in that room?
Beyond that regardless of what you think all wars are fought over resources and result in population culls. Tactically the US Military has resource dominance now and in the end the final battle will be between whatever NOW the Neocons can generate against 400,000,000 Chinese.
Our societies live in a state that conflicts with the truth that humans are predators. We cast all laws and civility aside to obtain resources that we need every few decades when enough people don’t remember the last horror show. See I’m just letting the obvious out here as the debate believe it or not is about the morality of war. You could be Gandhi but that does not matter since you will just die in the war. Nature works by the survival of the fittest.
We happen to be animals that can make useless stuff out of oil. We are animals that want to have sex constantly. Animals that want to see other animals get raped in prisons. Animals that would have sex with other species just for the heck of it. Animals that love blood sport and always laugh when someone falls on their as$.
The US has survived 2 world wars that it in fact did its part to create. Odds are the US will survive this world war too! Right or wrong has nothing to do with it. If the roll was reversed and we had the oil and the Arabs had the military they would attack us and render us into paste. Be happy in some way that you are on the side that has the Super Navy and advanced weapon systems.
The Repubs and Dems want the same thing folks. They want the oil and they want it now!
June 16th, 2007 at 2:36 pmFreedomrings -
I love how posters under estimate the fact that the US Military has no rival in the world. Our strength lies in our naval battle groups. Morality is another issue and any war has risk!
Many of you don’t realize the truth of resources. In summery in order to survive at all people will kill other people in order to obtain resources. The USA is out of OIL and this push in the Mideast will secure the US in resources and location for several decades to come. In the end the battle will be between the Neocons and China.
There is no stopping any of this people. Where are all of the masses revolting in the USA? They want the oil too! Here look at this link I posted in another thread…
Is it just me or does this sound the Japanese position before WWII? They were running short of oil and felt they had the world’s strongest Navy and ground forces. HMMMMM!
I also assume you are not in the military or have any children of military age or if they are, would nver enlist, as this all to be done on other peoples’ backs.
How does that sit with you Freedomrings. or should we call you NeoConrings.
June 16th, 2007 at 2:37 pmAmerica’s major protection against bombings like those in Europe is …a community of patriotic Muslim Americans. They speak fluent Arabic and Farsi, know their community and the people in it. Despite our ignorant Islam Bashing, they have successfully infiltrated and thwarted those attempts at terrorism in America.
June 16th, 2007 at 2:41 pmI think our best hope for averting a war with Iran, is to continuosly warn that our Government is planning to attack Iran. Let them continously be forced to deny it.
“I don’t know what weapons the next world war will be fought with, But the one after that will be fought with sticks and stones”… Albert Einstein
June 16th, 2007 at 2:48 pmComment by upside00 — June 16, 2007 @ 2:37 pm
We? LOL What is it that they say about when you assume? If you are under 45yo you will be in the military soon enough upside00. They intend to take women too. Did you start a protest today or are you intent on a revolt?
June 16th, 2007 at 2:48 pmHow does that sit with you Freedomrings. or should we call you NeoConrings.
Comment by upside00
I’m not sure Freedonrings is that much of a neocon, upside00. Sounds more like an absolute Darwinist to me. I understand the point being made. I’d also like to point out that all that military might couldn’t stop 18 guys w/ box cutters. The Box Cutters Brigade will strike against inspite of BruschCo’sâ„¢ missle shield, and the aftermath of a large-scale war w/ China would be devastating to the US even if we “won” militarily.
June 16th, 2007 at 2:50 pmAmerica’s major protection against bombings like those in Europe is …a community of patriotic Muslim Americans.
Comment by Badger — June 16, 2007 @ 2:41 pm
Are you saying that in Europe there is not a community of patriotic Muslim Europeans?
June 16th, 2007 at 2:51 pmFreedomrings – You didn’t answer any of my questions about your situation as to service or your children but for your reference, I am a wounded combat vet in the last US Clusterf@ck of a war which had about the same positive impact on the world as this one is having and we had about the same level of adult leadership too.
And I was a member of VVAW and threw my medals over the fence of the WH in protest and am doing my part to stop this illegal war as well. What are you doing?
June 16th, 2007 at 2:55 pmAre you saying that in Europe there is not a community of patriotic Muslim Europeans?
Comment by PRIMVS INTER PARES — June 16, 2007 @ 2:51 pm
Yep. Europe invited Muslims as guest workers, treated them as second class citizens, and segregated them in Ghettos with poor job and educational prospects. Needless to say, they became resentfull.
June 16th, 2007 at 3:14 pmAmerica , on the other hand, allowed Muslim immigrants to assimilate and pursue the american dream, which they did quite successfully in most cases.
There’s a lesson there somewhere.
Looks like freedomrings is just another troll, probably from Texas or Oklahoma, hiding in his/her parent’s basement, and can’t answer the tough questions.
At least he/she is consistent with the rest of the trolls here.
June 16th, 2007 at 3:16 pmAnybody notice that the people leading the call for bombing Iraq are pretty much ALL JEWS?
June 16th, 2007 at 3:20 pmYep. Europe invited Muslims as guest workers, treated them as second class citizens, and segregated them in Ghettos with poor job and educational prospects. Needless to say, they became resentfull.
America , on the other hand, allowed Muslim immigrants to assimilate and pursue the american dream, which they did quite successfully in most cases.
There’s a lesson there somewhere.
Comment by Badger — June 16, 2007 @ 3:14 pm
Didn’t the Muslims invade Europe in the Middle Ages?
You know… the events that led up to the Crusades… does The Song of Roland ring a bell… how about the Moorish Spain, were the Moors cordially invited work as RULERS OF SPAIN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Anyway, that is a little off topic. There are plenty of Muslim communities throughout Spain, France, Denmark (remember the cartoons), and the rest of Europe…Especially France
June 16th, 2007 at 3:21 pmAnybody notice that the people leading the call for bombing Iraq are pretty much ALL JEWS?
Comment by Shirley — June 16, 2007 @ 3:20 pm
Yeah, a bunch of paranoid mofos like yourself most certainly did.
June 16th, 2007 at 3:22 pmWhy do we have people in our government who believe that violence is the best way to solve problems? Why do we even listen to them when they start talking about bombing other countries because we don’t like what we think they might do at some distant point in the future? Lieberman (Idiot-CT) wants to bomb a country we have no formal diplomatic relations with. Why not start talking to them for crying out loud? Why speculate and then give in to our own worst fears without knowing the facts?
By and large the vast majority of the Iranian people actually like our country, but they fear what leaders like Bush (who never met a dissenting opinion he liked) will do if given unchecked power.
The War Powers Act needs to be rescinded and modified if we’re going to have anything like it at all, and we don’t need to. When the Union was attacked, Lincoln didn’t have to wait for Congress to convene in order to respond, and the Supreme Court backed him up on that. So why should we give the president the authority to use our military without congressional authorization?
As Marvin Gaye once sang, “War is not the answer.” We cannot hope to survive as a species if we insist on some God-given right to kill each other over ideologies and lies. This appies to humans all over the planet, not just our country.
Remember that, friends. We are all human beings on this planet, and none of us is inherently better than anyone else just because of where we were born or how rich our parents were. Every time someone is killed in a war, we all die a little inside. Don’t listen to Lieberman. He’s as wrong as wrong can be.
Peace on Earth.
June 16th, 2007 at 3:23 pmMAKE THAT IRAN!!!
June 16th, 2007 at 3:23 pmBTW Today’s L.A. Times carried NOT A SINGLE STORY about ANY of the ongoing CONGRESSIONAL INVESTIGATIONS by the Democratic Majority. Nothing about Rove, nothing about Doan, nothing about Gonzalez nada, ZIP, ZERO, NOTHING.
Their front page above-the-fold cover story was the 1957 Plymouth Belvedere that was just dug out of a water-logged 50 year old time capsule.
They didn’t even have the decency to report on the additional dead Americans in Iraq who have shed their blood for a wealthier more prosperous Israel.
HEY PRIMUS INTER PARES, are you denying that the leading voices for bombing Iran are Jewish? Unless I am mistaken, Podhoretz, Kristol, Lieberman, Perle, Kagan and Bolton ARE ALL JEWS. Some of us GENTILES don’t think bombing Iran is MORAL. But the Jews apparently don’t have that same moral compass.
You are exhibitng your Zionism or your ignorance or both.
June 16th, 2007 at 3:27 pmOr your hubris and arrogance. I guess the Zionist Jewish people have had such a great run of luck these past fifty years that they now feel confident in taking over the entire world. It seems they are leading the call in the spirit of their very own monster Leo Strauss, in killing more American Gentiles for their War for the Glory of a Greater Israel. At least they are accomplishing Orwell’s eternal war. They wouldn’t feel so excited about war had the victims of the American war machine been in Tel Aviv.
June 16th, 2007 at 3:31 pmThere was once another people of a highly advanced civilization, not unlike American Zionist Jewry, who had had a great run of luck for fifty years and then decided they could take over the world. That dream of theirs ended with atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
June 16th, 2007 at 3:35 pmComment by upside00 — June 16, 2007 @ 2:55 pm
Sorry for your pain and trouble. I don’t respond to personal questions and I don’t ask personal questions. I realize all of your points but you are reading my post the wrong way. I admitted that I was against war. The reality is that this is all going to play out no matter what we say or do.
The surge is simply a troop buildup. We have been training people that Saddam had already trained for 5 years now. All that means is that we are making an army to fight the common enemy the Iranians. Now the best I can tell you is that I work in energy these days and I might have been in one of the services when I was in my 20ies.
I’m not a neocon at all. I am a “peak-everything” person. I want all industrialization ended. So when I said there were 2 methods to bring the world to equilibrium again I was serious. On one hand there is all out war and population cull. On the other hand is ending the industrial age completely and reducing our population by law and sterilization.
You have not come to the place of understanding that there is no choice 3. It is black and white and it is a foregone conclusion that our government is shooting the proverbial load here in an attempt to stall the conclusion of the industrial age.
My intent in posting was to cut through to the actual reason why we are in the Mideast and let’s face it even though few want the war everyone wants the oil! They want to go for a drive again. The kids want to go out for the night. People want to eat. People want to have clothing. No oil > No food!
June 16th, 2007 at 3:45 pmComment by PRIMVS INTER PARES — June 16, 2007 @ 3:21 pm
The Crusades were fought in the Holy Land which is NOT in Europe as far as I know.
June 16th, 2007 at 3:48 pmChristians expelled all Muslims (Moors) and Jews from Spain by 1492. And when they entered Moorish cities, they were Shocked by the technological and architectural advancements of the Muslim Culture. They discovered Algebra, the Zero, and Arabic translations of their own Greek heritage. Remember, while it was the Dark Ages in Christian Europe, it was the Age of Enlightenment in Muslim lands.
What any of this has to do with Europes” disasterous Guest Worker Policy, I have no Idea.
Looks like freedomrings is just another troll, probably from Texas or Oklahoma, hiding in his/her parent’s basement, and can’t answer the tough questions.
At least he/she is consistent with the rest of the trolls here.
Comment by upside00 — June 16, 2007 @ 3:16 pm
Yes I’m in my parent’s basement in Texas playing Nintendo and talking to you. I thought you were intelligent but I see now that when you were wounded it must have been a head shot!
June 16th, 2007 at 3:53 pmNow, why would Ahmadinejad want the Bomb after reading about these Yahoos?
You know, according to Bush’s law of preemptive war, Iran would be justified in attacking America right now.
June 16th, 2007 at 4:39 pmComment by Badger — June 16, 2007 @ 3:48 pm
The Crusades were fought for the benefit for all of Christiandom, but anyway, all I was saying was that Muslims had been in Europe before the Guest Worker Policy of which you spoke. I’m sure that some of what you say is accurate, but, in fact, there are Muslim Nations in Eastern Europe.
I’m just sayin’
June 16th, 2007 at 4:42 pmHEY PRIMUS INTER PARES, are you denying that the leading voices for bombing Iran are Jewish? Unless I am mistaken, Podhoretz, Kristol, Lieberman, Perle, Kagan and Bolton ARE ALL JEWS. Some of us GENTILES don’t think bombing Iran is MORAL. But the Jews apparently don’t have that same moral compass.
You are exhibitng your Z*onism or your ignorance or both.
Comment by Shirley — June 16, 2007 @ 3:27 pm
Not at all, I agreed with you. I’m sure that plenty of paranoid mofos like yourself think that there is a Jew conspiracy of some sort. I would, in fact, be suprised if you did not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
June 16th, 2007 at 4:44 pmThat wheezing sound you may have heard this week amid the chaos in Gaza, the carnage in Baghdad and the conflict in Lebanon was the final gasps of the Bush Doctrine in its death throes. Just two years after the President and his neo-conservative allies basked in the glow of their self-proclaimed moment of triumph, the Bush Doctrine of no safe havens for terrorists, American preventive war and democracy promotion is discredited, discarded – and dead.
For the details, see:
June 16th, 2007 at 4:51 pm“The Death of the Bush Doctrine.”
From a psychological perspective, the Bush/Cheney administration and its neocon allies succeeded in promoting the misguided and destructive war in Iraq by targeting our core concerns about vulnerability, injustice, distrust, superiority, and helplessness. Looking ahead, they will likely try to sell us a continuing occupation of Iraq—or an attack on Iran—in much the same way. I examine these warmongering appeals and how to counter them in a new 10-minute video entitled “Resisting the Drums of War.” It’s available for viewing on YouTube HERE.
June 16th, 2007 at 5:43 pmThe Crusades were about creating control for the Western European Kings and placing the Roman Pope above the Eastern Bishops. It’s always been about the West dominating the East.
June 16th, 2007 at 7:00 pmFreedomrings – my wounds were in my legs but I respect your reaction. I have seen so many trolls here who blast a post and run.
But your comment about us HAVING to live on oil sounded so much like a Texas/Oklahoma ideology that I had to respond. There are many alternative options that we could develop, that it makes me sick that we have suppressed the development of it.
Your posts didn’t show any sense that you were anti-war.
And maybe you aren’t a troll after all.
June 16th, 2007 at 9:07 pmWhy are Isreal’s nuclear bombs NEVER bought up when Americans discuss this issue?
Iran is surrounded by countries with “nukular” weapons: Pakistan, China, Iraq (aka US war loot), Russia.
The way to solve this if you’re really serious about nuclear proliferation is to get everyone round a table and offer a nuclear free middle east that everyone can buy into.
The biggest threat to humanity now is the nuclear weapons possessed by the US. No one else is as likely to use it as you.
Common – you’re 5 per cent of the world’s population using easily 30 to 60 % of its oil, zinc, tin, copper, rubber etc. You’re a country full of overweight and wasteful people.
Can’t you cut the world some slack and take care of your crazies? Everyone else does a better job than you on this!
June 16th, 2007 at 10:03 pmmy wounds were in my legs but I respect your reaction. I have seen so many trolls here who blast a post and run.
But your comment about us HAVING to live on oil sounded so much like a Texas/Oklahoma ideology that I had to respond. There are many alternative options that we could develop, that it makes me sick that we have suppressed the development of it.
Your posts didn’t show any sense that you were anti-war.
And maybe you aren’t a troll after all.
Comment by upside00 — June 16, 2007 @ 9:07 pm
Sorry, No Oil = No Food There are no alternatives to how we grow food, transport food, keep food. Fertilizer is made with fossil fuel and we can’t rotate crops and let land rest to grow enough. All irrigation depends on fossil fuel too. If there were another way we would do it. As it is the bees are all but gone.
Once you get to the place of reason and deeper understanding you will see that there are only two ways and they are both DISMAL. The non peakers want to think this can all go on and on for many decades. The greens believe they can just change some things and it will all work out but never mention the class war. The rest know blackouts are on the way!
I say we hunker down and shut everything off and restructure our towns as centers to farms and use the last of the oil to keep up with the food demand till we are able to intelligently reduce the population.
No one is going to do that plan though so plan B is WW3 and that seems to be the plan.
June 17th, 2007 at 12:34 amWe are not going to run out of oil any time soon. We will, however, run out of cheap oil. Oil from oil shale and tar sands is relatively plentiful, but not cheap. Then there is oil from coal. Plentiful, but not cheap, and it has its own problems. There is also natural gas to consider. And biofuels. Lots of options. Lots of costs. Plenty of room for scientific research to improve efficiencies, so all is not lost. But it won’t be easy. Conservation and more mass transit are on the list of simpler things we can do. The most expensive oil of all is oil we think we have to go to war for. Going to war for oil is expensive, unnecessary, and immoral.
June 17th, 2007 at 2:50 amCan you imagine the SHOCK AND AWE if Israel nuked Iran and Pakistan nuked Israel? And the Bush team started nuking at will. And Russia started responding. And China started responding and the European Union started responding.
And the Bush team went into its bomb shelter taking along its invited neocon guests. And when it was all over and the Bush team and its guest came out they got into their vehicles and drove to work.
Everything was as it was before they headed into their bomb shelters.
But when they looked – up in the sky- it wasn’t a bird, it was a plane. And the plane’s marking said ENOLA GAY II.
June 17th, 2007 at 9:18 amDamn…more POLITICANS at PLAY.
Some of these OLD FARTS need to put on a FLAK JACKET.. RIDE
June 17th, 2007 at 9:54 amAnd so, is it all about the oil after all? Listen to the comments of the 2003 Secretary of Defense about Iraq’s oil. Mr. Rumsfeld was interviewed by Kroft.
Kroft: Mr. Secretary, what do you say to people who think this is about oil?
Rumsfeld: Nonsense. It just isn’t. There are certain things like that, myths, that are floating around. I’m glad you asked.
It has nothing to do with oil, literally nothing to do with oil. It has nothing to do with the religion. People who have a viewpoint frequently throw up those two issues, and say, well, this is really against Muslims, which it certainly isn’t. The United States is the country that went in and helped Kuwait, a Muslim country.
We worked in Bosnia to stop ethnic cleansing. We’ve done Afghanistan. And it’s certainly not about oil. Oil is fungible, and people who own it want to sell it, and it will be available.
Kroft: Well, I’m afraid that’s going to have to do it for this afternoon, Mr. Secretary, we’ve run out of time.
Rumsfeld: That went fast.
The full story can be read here:
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/bush/infinity.htm
And below are comments that don’t seem to convey the Secretary of State’s message of 2003:
American With Ties to Bush Administration Helped Write Iraq’s New Hydrocarbon Law That Gives Victor’s Term to US Big Oil Companies
« H E » Middle East :: World :: Nation :: email
posted 01-27-07
U.S.-tailored Iraqi oil alarm for producers, consumers”
… the U.S. occupation of Iraq seems to be about to grab its oil prize by establishing a new sharing arrangement between a major national producer and the multi-national giants…This prize has been the dream of successive U.S. administrations: on January 18th, they came one step closer to reality when Iraq’s Oil Committee approved the new draft hydrocarbon law, sent it to the cabinet within a week and, when approved, will go to the parliament immediately thereafter.
The early draft of the law was prepared by BearingPoint American consultants, hired by the Bush administration, and sent to the White House and major Western petroleum corporations in July, and then to the International Monetary Fund two months later, while most Iraqi legislators and the public remained in the dark.
The full story can be read here:
http://dotcommonsense.blog-city.com/americans_with_ties_to_bush_administration_helped_write_iraq.htm
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
And the Bush team, using YELLOW CAKE as a prop, decided to go to war with Iraq. The reason/s: Saddam Hussein, terrorists and exporting of democracy.
If you look at the behavior of the Bush team’s war effort, terrorist and exporting of democracy seems not important.
If fighting terrorist was a main reason, then why was Iraq left in a state that contributed to the growth and export of terrorism – CHAOS. And this state of CHAOS provided the training camp for terrorists for some four years?
If exporting democracy was a main reason, why were the civilians left without a government for four years?
Was it the oil? Did everything else get trashed to get to the oil?
June 17th, 2007 at 10:00 amSome of these so called POLITICANS/PROTECTORS OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. Need to put on a FLAK JACKET, and spend some time on patrol with the Troops in Iraq. It would be great to rotate these guys and ladies through a one week rotation ON PATROL/EMBEDDED WITH COMPATE TROOPS..
If there is one LESSON ABOUT WARFARE… SINCE 9/11 IT HAS CHANGED.
Bombs don’t work, tanks don’t work, air suppot does not work, ground troops do not work, DOLLARS DO NOT WORK…
Because WHO, WHAT, WHERE AND WHEN to you FIND AN ENEMY TO KILL…
You blow it up… WHO PAYS TO REPAIR/REPLACE…
So WHO DO WE BOMB… WHO DO WE DESTORY… WHO DO WE BRIBE…
War is about KILLING the ENEMY… In the mind of a TERRORIST… ONE person kills many… WITHOUT AIRCRAFT, TANKS, GUNS..
Think about it… THE GENERALS/POLITICANS… care only that there is not a HIGH BODY COUNT of their troops.
June 17th, 2007 at 10:04 amDamn…more POLITICANS at PLAY.
Some of these OLD FARTS need to put on a FLAK JACKET.. RIDE
Comment by Bob Pemberton — June 17, 2007 @
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
The trade mark of a typical neocon. Nothing to say. But saying it anyway. What this text reveals is more about the blogger than a topic in this forum.
Neocons truly could tell something about the accomplishments of the Bush team. Or barring that, just make sense.
Once again – sometimes mouth best left shut.
June 17th, 2007 at 10:13 amComment by Leo Brown — June 17, 2007 @ 2:50 am
If only what you said was true there would be no problem. I would imagine you’re in the ‘we have time left’ group and that talks about the energy crisis in the future tense. Since Carter’s speech nothing has changed except 30 years have shot bye. We do the same old thing day in and out and have now hit a wall. This is why we are at war Leo.
I want you to have a look at two links. The picture on the other end is a saturation plot chart produced by Saudi Arabia’s Aramco Oil.
http://www.theoildrum.com/files/ain_data_linux.png
The next picture is a map key so that the color codes in the first image can be defined.
http://www.theoildrum.com/files/14_gascaps2.png
What you are looking at is the biggest oil well in the world called Ghawar. All of the blue is injected water used to float the oil UP for it to be pumped out. At this time we mainly receive heavy sour crude from Ghawar. To the point your optimism is not realistic given the reality Leo.
Now it was hoped that the Toyota Prius would be an asset to us in order to start down a path of conservation. The truth is that the Prius is a bigger polluter and has a higher cost per mile than the Hummer but is claimed to be a 50mpg energy fighter.
http://clubs.ccsu.edu/Recorder/editorial/editorial_item.asp?NewsID=188
Total BS and it appears to get worse and worse. I’m not going to get into the nitty-gritty on alternatives or even coal gasification since I have done that many times here. None of the alternatives can come close to the compact usability of oil and natural gas. Mines destroy the land and require more energy to operate than the physical amount of energy returned from their operation.
Most of the alternatives have a Fossil Fuel component as does nuclear, solar and wind. Are situation is that modern industrialization is necessary to mass produce any of these alternatives. You and the greens want the impossible. You want to have your cake and eat it too. You want to lead your life and let the reality fall on someone else in the future. You want to make photo voltaic cells but fail to realize that mines that are in remote areas like this one…
http://www.mining-technology.com/projects/bingham/bingham2.html
That use equipment like this…
http://www.mining-technology.com/projects/bingham/bingham3.html
Make that happen and that is only the tip since there is a thing called a smelter and that smelter uses this to run…
http://www.mining-technology.com/projects/bingham/bingham4.html
The cleanest smelter in the world is powered by burning coal (another mining operation).
FULL STOP… we are dead meat folks! All of it is BS we have to turn off everything in an orderly way or kill off a large portion of the global population so that we don’t have to turn off anything. We have to choose between demand destruction (killing) or ending the industrial age. I don’t see people lining up to return to the Stone Age and that throws plan “A†(WW3) back on center stage.
Sure people will try alternatives and continue to further deplete the oil we need to grow food by making solar cell backpacks to power laptops that are not edible. Even a seemingly simple backpack is a problem since it is made of synthetics like nylon. There are no nylon trees. You simply can’t have mass production without high energy and raw materials. Make a cotton backpack and you have the same problem of oil depletion since approximately 10 (or more) calories of fossil fuels are required to produce every 1 calorie of food eaten in the US. This is why sweat shops make clothing around the world!
June 17th, 2007 at 11:07 am# 111 said:
“Some of these so called POLITICANS/PROTECTORS OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. Need to put on a FLAK JACKET, and spend some time on patrol with the Troops in Iraq. It would be great to rotate these guys and ladies through a one week rotation ON PATROL/EMBEDDED WITH COMPATE TROOPS..”
bezelt said:
Another puzzler! It seems to be saying America, you are not allowed to critique anything you are not willing to experience. And of course, that makes no sense.
# 111 said:
If there is one LESSON ABOUT WARFARE… SINCE 9/11 IT HAS CHANGED.
Bombs don’t work, tanks don’t work, air suppot does not work, ground troops do not work, DOLLARS DO NOT WORK…
Because WHO, WHAT, WHERE AND WHEN to you FIND AN ENEMY TO KILL…
You blow it up… WHO PAYS TO REPAIR/REPLACE…
So WHO DO WE BOMB… WHO DO WE DESTORY… WHO DO WE BRIBE…
bezelt said:
Those concepts, apparently, were lost on the Bush team. The Bush team marched off to war using just the tools that you have declared don’t work. And not to worry about “collateral damage”. “Collateral damage” is now fair game.
If candidates for “collateral damage” mingle with terrorists, then they become damaged collateral. There have been numerous complaints about the Bush team’s collateral damage “program”.
June 17th, 2007 at 11:15 amLieberman recommended an attack on Iran to get their leaders to “…play by the rules…”
Great – okay – that settles it then – especially if Joe Lieberman says so.
Then first we must attack Israel to get their leaders to “play by the rules” since they are the ones who actually HAVE nuclear weapons and have refused to even join, let alone abide by the IAEA – which Iran has.
Israel doesn’t even allow the US to inspect their nuclear arsenal, in spite of the fact that US taxpayers subsidize it to the tune of $5-10 billion each year in various forms of aid (while we don’t have enough money to properly care for our own troops).
Here is the 134 BILLION price tag we have paid for Israel’s friendship as of 1997 (not exactly a cheap date, but at least we did get a good screwing):
http://tinyurl.com/4v6oh
Then there are those 60+ UN Resolutions that Israel has ignored.
http://tinyurl.com/ptbez
Everyone knows all too well what the US insists it must do to countries who fail to abide by UN Resolutions.
So – first things first here – Israel ignores way more UN Resolutions than Iran has, and Israel has made around 200 illegal nukes compared to Iran nowhere close to even being able to make one – even IF they wanted to. (and the only people telling US that Iran wants to make a nuke – are the exact same people who told us Iraq was too)
So Lieberman must recommend an attack on Israel first, or else the US is going to appear hypocritical and prejudiced.
With our reputation and moral authority in shreds, maybe we should just forget about attacking Iran and mind OUR OWN business.
http://tinyurl.com/245ap4
And oh yeah – is there anyway we can get our $134 Billion back?
We’re a little tight right now with that 9 TRILLION dollar national debt thingy and not being able to afford the universal health care coverage that every Israeli gets.
And just how does Lieberman define “the rules” we play by – invading and destroying two countries without justification or provocation,
http://tinyurl.com/23cdxk
June 17th, 2007 at 1:13 pmAnd just how does Lieberman define “the rules” we play by – invading and destroying two countries without justification or provocation,
http://tinyurl.com/23cdxk
June 17th, 2007 at 1:26 pmAnd just how does Lieberman define “the rules” we play by – invading and destroying two countries without justification or provocation,
http://tinyurl.com/23cdxk —– Please watch this short video
killing and/or poisoning it’s people/soil and water with depleted uranium for the next 3+ billion years, stealing their resources with PSA’s and their futures with WolfoWorld Bank Loans, and now Lieberman thinks we should do it again for a third time?
Cui bono from all this?
Even before PNAC and Cheney’s Peak Oil warrior plans….there was this:
http://tinyurl.com/24wmf7
Isn’t it an odd coincidence that Douglas Feith co-authored this plan, and then later was the person in the Pentagon’s OSP who created all the bogus Iraq intel that helped lie our nation into war?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,999737,00.html
Could this be the real first match that lit the fuse to this timebomb?
That could explain why we invaded Iraq or why we helped bomb Lebanon last summer, as the rest of the world looked on in horror and disgust. I haven’t heard any reports of Lebanon had been trying to interfere in our invasion and conquest of Iraq – so why did we rush even more cluster bombs over there to fascilitate decimating Lebanese civilians/infrustructure – ie: war crimes?
It really makes you wonder who is really running US Middle East foreign policy and to what end?
June 17th, 2007 at 1:29 pm
June 17th, 2007 at 4:24 pmIf it allright to do military strike against Iran, why didn’t it hold for Pakistan too. Pakistan is a breeding ground for terrorists where Osama
Bin Laden is hiding with the direct assistance and aid of Pakistani
Intelligence Agency. But U.S. polcily in South Asia is upon mutual destruction of the sub-continent. When Indira Gandhi was ready to
strike on Pakistan’s nuclear installations, Reagan and that devil
Kessinger thwarted it. Nixon called Gandhi a “bitch”, who saved the
millions of people from genocide.
and of course no-one has suggested sending weapons inspectors there because they never find any bomb-type stuff – i suppose rice is at least appearing to stand her ground on a diplomatic path towards iran….isn’t she?
June 17th, 2007 at 10:03 pmThe Conservatives surely have their priorities mixed up. They “see no evil” when it comes to the Republican party. The Republican party produced:
(1) The worse case of ethics that the country has seen in decades – maybe ever.
(2) An OLD Congress that rode “shotgun” for the Republican President – “reformulating” laws as the President broke them.
(3) The Republican President used faked “yellow-cake” to fool some congressional members into siding with his war on Iraq. Was his war legal? It was based upon, as neo-cons are frequently saying, a “lie”. Did the President know the truth or falsity of his claims when he went to war?
(4) The Bush team has created enough foul behaviors to be impeached many times over.
(5) The Bush team is remaking America in the image of the Bush team and now seems to have run afoul of the Hatch Act.
(6) The CURRENT CONGRESS seems to be looking the other way on all those Bush behaviors that would likely have gotten the “gallows” for a Democratic President. That part of this Congress is difficult to understand. Not the Republicans in Congress. They are the same as they were when they gave a pass to Mr. Tom DeLay in late 2004.
Only the ELECTORATE can fix the problem with the Republicans. But the Democrats in Congress should absolutely NOT leave the IMPRESSION that they are BLIND to the impeachable offenses of this Bush team. The Conservatives will not do this for the Democrats.
The Democrats, perhaps lacking the power to impeach the Bush team should TELL AMERICA that the Bush team’s behavior is of “impeachable quality”. ImpeachBush.org has a ready list of twenty items that should be addressed. And it now looks like another item should be added – possible violation of the Hatch Act.
HAS THE DEMOCRATS TOLD AMERICA WHERE IT STANDS ON THE IMPEACHMENT ISSUE. Is the IMPEACHMENT ISSUE, only important to the ELECTORATE?
(7) Sure, the Democrats have done a bang-up job in the few months they have been at work – but this Bush team has created enough problems to keep teams of investigators busy for years.
Should the Bush team ESCAPE accountability for its transgressions? It the Republicans believed that Ex President Bill Clinton deserved impeachment, what does the Bush team deserve?
The Democrats should let America know what the Republicans are willing to “look the other way on” when it comes to wrong doing by Republicans.
June 19th, 2007 at 8:04 amThe Bush team’s dominion over America is looking weirder and weirder. Now Conservatives (neo cons)seem to have United States “war making” powers via their Commander In Chief and a “fence straddling Congressman” who leans toward the right.
America needs to take America back. Is this the first time in American history that it is considering being in two separate and distinct wars. Perhaps not, but was either one extremely dumb?
The Bush team has already “train wrecked” one war(but it got the oil) and now it’s looking to add another “train wreck”(Oil related).
Is it Iraq’s OIL that makes the neo-cons feel that the war was worth it? If they should strike again, what “prop” would they use? The “prop” this time won’t be “yellow cake”. The prop this time will be “the United Nations”. If the Bush team bombs Iran, without approval of Congress, then America is in serious trouble – some more.
America’s forefathers could foresee the possibility of electing a popular “creature”. The Electorial College could possibly handle that. But who could have forseen the likes of the Bush team?
What if someone could wake George Washington and tell him that someone who holds the same position as he did has now laid claim to the “sky”. Would George Washington be amused?
The Bush team, in its world activities, seems to “give no quarter”. To those countries that don’t do as the Bush team wants – expect widespread “collaterial damage” as the Bush team BOMBS for effect.
And if “whoever has the oil is a target” what’s going to happen when the Bush team “whacks” Iran? If you were Pakistan, would you feel comfortable with the Bush team? If you were anyone in the Middle East would you feel comfortable with the Bush team?
If you were not from the middle east would you feel comfortable knowing the Bush team is grabbing earth’s oil after it grabbed earth’s outerspace?
Outer space backfired when the Chinese government proved that the Bush team could not protect outer space from its shooting down of its own satellite.
Whether oil or land be the subject, it’s looking more and more like: if you can’t protect it, you can’t own it. The United Nations not withstanding, if you can’t protect it, you can’t own it.
The Conservative fueled Bush team seems to running over everything that it can. The Bush team appears to be depending on the good judgement of its opposition to back down before a crisis happens.
The Bush team presents a scenario that no forefathers would have thought possible in the high offices of the United States Government.
June 19th, 2007 at 9:23 amWho is happy with the way the Bush team is managing America? Neo cons?
Neo-cons linked to America’s BIG OIL industry are likely beside themselves with glee. The OIL industry is doing great. Making “mo” money than they have ever made in the history of BIG OIL.
And all it cost BIG OIL was some American lives and some United States treasury dollars. Along with the expected “foreign collateral damage” focused damage to lives and property.
BIG OIL has had it best profits EVER, under the Bush team. And when America cried out in pain because of the high price of gasoline, somebody in the Republican camp said something like this: “put $100.00 into the pockets of every voting American”.
The neo-cons linked to America’s BIG OIL are doing great. A lot “mo” oil is coming from Iraq. Will the Iraqi people have much to say about those oil negotiations going on now? Probably not. Will the insurgents have anything to say? Probably not. So who, in the Iraqi world, has “custody” of Iraq’s oil?
Good question.
So, if it looks like the Bush team is “stealing” Iraq’s oil, how will that set with the insurgents? Will Saudi Arabia seem to be in compliance with the Bush team “buying/stealing” Iraqi oil? How will the Iraqi environment remain stable enough to protect the oil and the oil workers?
The Bush team plans to have American troops stationed in Iraq for the foreseeable future.
Way different from the initial plans that were put in front of the American people and Congress.
Who All “wuz” fooled by the Bush team’s Iraqi strategy? Most everyone. No one believed a behavior like that could come from the high office of the President of the United States of America.
Who-All is going to benefit from the sacrifices of all those Iraqi civilians and American soldiers? BIG OIL and the neo cons linked to BIG OIL.
Then why aren’t BIG OIL’s gains placed in front of the American people as examples of the Bush team’s management skills? Rather than “ducking” all those “train wrecks” the Bush team could PROUDLY tell America how BIG OIL has prospered under the Bush team’s leadership. Big Oil has made its biggest profits EVER under the Bush team’s leadership.
something that did not wind up as a train wreck?
June 19th, 2007 at 11:42 amIt is no secret that neo cons don’t like the United Nations. Why not? The U. N. seems to be following the Bush team line.
The United Stations is telling Iran that it must not produce nuclear weapons while the Bush team and its neo cons are doing saber rattling at Iran. Does the United Nations have a position on wars started by the Bush team? Why should the United Nations tell one country it can’t have nuclear weapons in defense of itself while ignoring the nuclear defenses of others – in the same region.
Of course there is bias here. Even with Mr. Bolton gone, the Bush team still is doing what it wants without a “peep” from the United Nations.The Bush team is willing to push its programs to the limit – stepping on anyone in its way. The Bush team seems to be playing a game of chicken – knowing others will cede to its recklessness to maintain a stable world.
If the United Nations is telling country A that it can’t produce a certain type of weapon but allows country B to produce that weapon then the United Nations should be judged.
The world knows that the Bush team made declarations about terror – but that same Bush team also made declarations about WMDs. Is the United Nations a tool of the Bush team?
The United Nations did not follow the Bush team to war in Iraq – but did the United Nations define what the Bush team did to Iraq? Is it within the U.N. Charter/rules/laws to standby and see a weak nation overwhelmed by a stronger nation? And the reason given by the strong nation has been proved to be false.
Something is bad wrong in this world community of nations and there does not seem to be anyone on hand to give guidance.
June 19th, 2007 at 2:21 pmYes, idiots are talking about “bombing Iran”.
However, with what Army would we fight the follow up ground war.
As it is, the U.S. Armed forces are losing in recruits, re-enlistments,
and officer commision extensions due to dual engagement in Iraq
and Afghanistan.
Bombing Iran would not help. Now, as the middle east explodes,
are we to become militarilly engaged in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan?
With what Army? Of course we can bomb. But where are the ground forces to back up that action.
Frankly, you don`t have the ground forces to back up an airstrike on Iran.
An airstrike is the equivalent of declaring war. And thus, neither the President nor the Vice President can order an air strike on Iran without the prior consent of congress.
The people advocating bombing Iran are insane! Totally out of touch with reality. If the U.S. were to bomb Iran, or allow Israeli planes over the territory it controls in Iraq to bomb Iran, then that is a declaration of war.
The U.S. has enough trouble in Iraq and Afghanistan. Actually, Iran has more in common with the U.S. in the area than we would like to think.
The time has come to sit down and talk instead of bombing.
All the Best: Kent, an old fashioned Lincolnite Liberal.
June 21st, 2007 at 10:02 am