However, with what Army would we fight the follow up ground war.
As it is, the U.S. Armed forces are losing in recruits, re-enlistments,
and officer commision extensions due to dual engagement in Iraq
and Afghanistan.

Bombing Iran would not help. Now, as the middle east explodes,
are we to become militarilly engaged in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan?

With what Army? Of course we can bomb. But where are the ground forces to back up that action.

Frankly, you don`t have the ground forces to back up an airstrike on Iran.
An airstrike is the equivalent of declaring war. And thus, neither the President nor the Vice President can order an air strike on Iran without the prior consent of congress.

The people advocating bombing Iran are insane! Totally out of touch with reality. If the U.S. were to bomb Iran, or allow Israeli planes over the territory it controls in Iraq to bomb Iran, then that is a declaration of war.

The U.S. has enough trouble in Iraq and Afghanistan. Actually, Iran has more in common with the U.S. in the area than we would like to think.
The time has come to sit down and talk instead of bombing.

All the Best: Kent, an old fashioned Lincolnite Liberal.

The United Stations is telling Iran that it must not produce nuclear weapons while the Bush team and its neo cons are doing saber rattling at Iran. Does the United Nations have a position on wars started by the Bush team? Why should the United Nations tell one country it can’t have nuclear weapons in defense of itself while ignoring the nuclear defenses of others – in the same region.

Of course there is bias here. Even with Mr. Bolton gone, the Bush team still is doing what it wants without a “peep” from the United Nations.The Bush team is willing to push its programs to the limit – stepping on anyone in its way. The Bush team seems to be playing a game of chicken – knowing others will cede to its recklessness to maintain a stable world.

If the United Nations is telling country A that it can’t produce a certain type of weapon but allows country B to produce that weapon then the United Nations should be judged.

The world knows that the Bush team made declarations about terror – but that same Bush team also made declarations about WMDs. Is the United Nations a tool of the Bush team?

The United Nations did not follow the Bush team to war in Iraq – but did the United Nations define what the Bush team did to Iraq? Is it within the U.N. Charter/rules/laws to standby and see a weak nation overwhelmed by a stronger nation? And the reason given by the strong nation has been proved to be false.

Something is bad wrong in this world community of nations and there does not seem to be anyone on hand to give guidance.

Neo-cons linked to America’s BIG OIL industry are likely beside themselves with glee. The OIL industry is doing great. Making “mo” money than they have ever made in the history of BIG OIL.

And all it cost BIG OIL was some American lives and some United States treasury dollars. Along with the expected “foreign collateral damage” focused damage to lives and property.

BIG OIL has had it best profits EVER, under the Bush team. And when America cried out in pain because of the high price of gasoline, somebody in the Republican camp said something like this: “put $100.00 into the pockets of every voting American”.

The neo-cons linked to America’s BIG OIL are doing great. A lot “mo” oil is coming from Iraq. Will the Iraqi people have much to say about those oil negotiations going on now? Probably not. Will the insurgents have anything to say? Probably not. So who, in the Iraqi world, has “custody” of Iraq’s oil?

Good question.

So, if it looks like the Bush team is “stealing” Iraq’s oil, how will that set with the insurgents? Will Saudi Arabia seem to be in compliance with the Bush team “buying/stealing” Iraqi oil? How will the Iraqi environment remain stable enough to protect the oil and the oil workers?

The Bush team plans to have American troops stationed in Iraq for the foreseeable future.

Way different from the initial plans that were put in front of the American people and Congress.

Who All “wuz” fooled by the Bush team’s Iraqi strategy? Most everyone. No one believed a behavior like that could come from the high office of the President of the United States of America.

Who-All is going to benefit from the sacrifices of all those Iraqi civilians and American soldiers? BIG OIL and the neo cons linked to BIG OIL.

Then why aren’t BIG OIL’s gains placed in front of the American people as examples of the Bush team’s management skills? Rather than “ducking” all those “train wrecks” the Bush team could PROUDLY tell America how BIG OIL has prospered under the Bush team’s leadership. Big Oil has made its biggest profits EVER under the Bush team’s leadership.

something that did not wind up as a train wreck?

America needs to take America back. Is this the first time in American history that it is considering being in two separate and distinct wars. Perhaps not, but was either one extremely dumb?

The Bush team has already “train wrecked” one war(but it got the oil) and now it’s looking to add another “train wreck”(Oil related).

Is it Iraq’s OIL that makes the neo-cons feel that the war was worth it? If they should strike again, what “prop” would they use? The “prop” this time won’t be “yellow cake”. The prop this time will be “the United Nations”. If the Bush team bombs Iran, without approval of Congress, then America is in serious trouble – some more.

America’s forefathers could foresee the possibility of electing a popular “creature”. The Electorial College could possibly handle that. But who could have forseen the likes of the Bush team?

What if someone could wake George Washington and tell him that someone who holds the same position as he did has now laid claim to the “sky”. Would George Washington be amused?

The Bush team, in its world activities, seems to “give no quarter”. To those countries that don’t do as the Bush team wants – expect widespread “collaterial damage” as the Bush team BOMBS for effect.

And if “whoever has the oil is a target” what’s going to happen when the Bush team “whacks” Iran? If you were Pakistan, would you feel comfortable with the Bush team? If you were anyone in the Middle East would you feel comfortable with the Bush team?

If you were not from the middle east would you feel comfortable knowing the Bush team is grabbing earth’s oil after it grabbed earth’s outerspace?

Outer space backfired when the Chinese government proved that the Bush team could not protect outer space from its shooting down of its own satellite.

Whether oil or land be the subject, it’s looking more and more like: if you can’t protect it, you can’t own it. The United Nations not withstanding, if you can’t protect it, you can’t own it.

The Conservative fueled Bush team seems to running over everything that it can. The Bush team appears to be depending on the good judgement of its opposition to back down before a crisis happens.

The Bush team presents a scenario that no forefathers would have thought possible in the high offices of the United States Government.

(1) The worse case of ethics that the country has seen in decades – maybe ever.

(2) An OLD Congress that rode “shotgun” for the Republican President – “reformulating” laws as the President broke them.

(3) The Republican President used faked “yellow-cake” to fool some congressional members into siding with his war on Iraq. Was his war legal? It was based upon, as neo-cons are frequently saying, a “lie”. Did the President know the truth or falsity of his claims when he went to war?

(4) The Bush team has created enough foul behaviors to be impeached many times over.

(5) The Bush team is remaking America in the image of the Bush team and now seems to have run afoul of the Hatch Act.

(6) The CURRENT CONGRESS seems to be looking the other way on all those Bush behaviors that would likely have gotten the “gallows” for a Democratic President. That part of this Congress is difficult to understand. Not the Republicans in Congress. They are the same as they were when they gave a pass to Mr. Tom DeLay in late 2004.

Only the ELECTORATE can fix the problem with the Republicans. But the Democrats in Congress should absolutely NOT leave the IMPRESSION that they are BLIND to the impeachable offenses of this Bush team. The Conservatives will not do this for the Democrats.

The Democrats, perhaps lacking the power to impeach the Bush team should TELL AMERICA that the Bush team’s behavior is of “impeachable quality”. ImpeachBush.org has a ready list of twenty items that should be addressed. And it now looks like another item should be added – possible violation of the Hatch Act.

HAS THE DEMOCRATS TOLD AMERICA WHERE IT STANDS ON THE IMPEACHMENT ISSUE. Is the IMPEACHMENT ISSUE, only important to the ELECTORATE?

(7) Sure, the Democrats have done a bang-up job in the few months they have been at work – but this Bush team has created enough problems to keep teams of investigators busy for years.

Should the Bush team ESCAPE accountability for its transgressions? It the Republicans believed that Ex President Bill Clinton deserved impeachment, what does the Bush team deserve?

The Democrats should let America know what the Republicans are willing to “look the other way on” when it comes to wrong doing by Republicans.

http://tinyurl.com/23cdxk —– Please watch this short video

killing and/or poisoning it’s people/soil and water with depleted uranium for the next 3+ billion years, stealing their resources with PSA’s and their futures with WolfoWorld Bank Loans, and now Lieberman thinks we should do it again for a third time?

Cui bono from all this?
Even before PNAC and Cheney’s Peak Oil warrior plans….there was this:

http://tinyurl.com/24wmf7

Isn’t it an odd coincidence that Douglas Feith co-authored this plan, and then later was the person in the Pentagon’s OSP who created all the bogus Iraq intel that helped lie our nation into war?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,999737,00.html

Could this be the real first match that lit the fuse to this timebomb?
That could explain why we invaded Iraq or why we helped bomb Lebanon last summer, as the rest of the world looked on in horror and disgust. I haven’t heard any reports of Lebanon had been trying to interfere in our invasion and conquest of Iraq – so why did we rush even more cluster bombs over there to fascilitate decimating Lebanese civilians/infrustructure – ie: war crimes?

It really makes you wonder who is really running US Middle East foreign policy and to what end?

http://tinyurl.com/23cdxk

Great – okay – that settles it then – especially if Joe Lieberman says so.
Then first we must attack Israel to get their leaders to “play by the rules” since they are the ones who actually HAVE nuclear weapons and have refused to even join, let alone abide by the IAEA – which Iran has.
Israel doesn’t even allow the US to inspect their nuclear arsenal, in spite of the fact that US taxpayers subsidize it to the tune of $5-10 billion each year in various forms of aid (while we don’t have enough money to properly care for our own troops).

Here is the 134 BILLION price tag we have paid for Israel’s friendship as of 1997 (not exactly a cheap date, but at least we did get a good screwing):
http://tinyurl.com/4v6oh

Then there are those 60+ UN Resolutions that Israel has ignored.
http://tinyurl.com/ptbez

Everyone knows all too well what the US insists it must do to countries who fail to abide by UN Resolutions.

So – first things first here – Israel ignores way more UN Resolutions than Iran has, and Israel has made around 200 illegal nukes compared to Iran nowhere close to even being able to make one – even IF they wanted to. (and the only people telling US that Iran wants to make a nuke – are the exact same people who told us Iraq was too)

So Lieberman must recommend an attack on Israel first, or else the US is going to appear hypocritical and prejudiced.
With our reputation and moral authority in shreds, maybe we should just forget about attacking Iran and mind OUR OWN business.
http://tinyurl.com/245ap4

And oh yeah – is there anyway we can get our $134 Billion back?
We’re a little tight right now with that 9 TRILLION dollar national debt thingy and not being able to afford the universal health care coverage that every Israeli gets.

And just how does Lieberman define “the rules” we play by – invading and destroying two countries without justification or provocation,

http://tinyurl.com/23cdxk

“Some of these so called POLITICANS/PROTECTORS OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE. Need to put on a FLAK JACKET, and spend some time on patrol with the Troops in Iraq. It would be great to rotate these guys and ladies through a one week rotation ON PATROL/EMBEDDED WITH COMPATE TROOPS..”

bezelt said:

Another puzzler! It seems to be saying America, you are not allowed to critique anything you are not willing to experience. And of course, that makes no sense.

# 111 said:

If there is one LESSON ABOUT WARFARE… SINCE 9/11 IT HAS CHANGED.

Bombs don’t work, tanks don’t work, air suppot does not work, ground troops do not work, DOLLARS DO NOT WORK…

Because WHO, WHAT, WHERE AND WHEN to you FIND AN ENEMY TO KILL…

You blow it up… WHO PAYS TO REPAIR/REPLACE…

So WHO DO WE BOMB… WHO DO WE DESTORY… WHO DO WE BRIBE…

bezelt said:

Those concepts, apparently, were lost on the Bush team. The Bush team marched off to war using just the tools that you have declared don’t work. And not to worry about “collateral damage”. “Collateral damage” is now fair game.

If candidates for “collateral damage” mingle with terrorists, then they become damaged collateral. There have been numerous complaints about the Bush team’s collateral damage “program”.

If only what you said was true there would be no problem. I would imagine you’re in the ‘we have time left’ group and that talks about the energy crisis in the future tense. Since Carter’s speech nothing has changed except 30 years have shot bye. We do the same old thing day in and out and have now hit a wall. This is why we are at war Leo.

I want you to have a look at two links. The picture on the other end is a saturation plot chart produced by Saudi Arabia’s Aramco Oil.
http://www.theoildrum.com/files/ain_data_linux.png

The next picture is a map key so that the color codes in the first image can be defined.
http://www.theoildrum.com/files/14_gascaps2.png

What you are looking at is the biggest oil well in the world called Ghawar. All of the blue is injected water used to float the oil UP for it to be pumped out. At this time we mainly receive heavy sour crude from Ghawar. To the point your optimism is not realistic given the reality Leo.

Now it was hoped that the Toyota Prius would be an asset to us in order to start down a path of conservation. The truth is that the Prius is a bigger polluter and has a higher cost per mile than the Hummer but is claimed to be a 50mpg energy fighter.
http://clubs.ccsu.edu/Recorder/editorial/editorial_item.asp?NewsID=188

Total BS and it appears to get worse and worse. I’m not going to get into the nitty-gritty on alternatives or even coal gasification since I have done that many times here. None of the alternatives can come close to the compact usability of oil and natural gas. Mines destroy the land and require more energy to operate than the physical amount of energy returned from their operation.

Most of the alternatives have a Fossil Fuel component as does nuclear, solar and wind. Are situation is that modern industrialization is necessary to mass produce any of these alternatives. You and the greens want the impossible. You want to have your cake and eat it too. You want to lead your life and let the reality fall on someone else in the future. You want to make photo voltaic cells but fail to realize that mines that are in remote areas like this one…
http://www.mining-technology.com/projects/bingham/bingham2.html

That use equipment like this…
http://www.mining-technology.com/projects/bingham/bingham3.html

Make that happen and that is only the tip since there is a thing called a smelter and that smelter uses this to run…
http://www.mining-technology.com/projects/bingham/bingham4.html

The cleanest smelter in the world is powered by burning coal (another mining operation).

FULL STOP… we are dead meat folks! All of it is BS we have to turn off everything in an orderly way or kill off a large portion of the global population so that we don’t have to turn off anything. We have to choose between demand destruction (killing) or ending the industrial age. I don’t see people lining up to return to the Stone Age and that throws plan “A” (WW3) back on center stage.

Sure people will try alternatives and continue to further deplete the oil we need to grow food by making solar cell backpacks to power laptops that are not edible. Even a seemingly simple backpack is a problem since it is made of synthetics like nylon. There are no nylon trees. You simply can’t have mass production without high energy and raw materials. Make a cotton backpack and you have the same problem of oil depletion since approximately 10 (or more) calories of fossil fuels are required to produce every 1 calorie of food eaten in the US. This is why sweat shops make clothing around the world!

Some of these OLD FARTS need to put on a FLAK JACKET.. RIDE

Comment by Bob Pemberton — June 17, 2007 @

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

The trade mark of a typical neocon. Nothing to say. But saying it anyway. What this text reveals is more about the blogger than a topic in this forum.

Neocons truly could tell something about the accomplishments of the Bush team. Or barring that, just make sense.

Once again – sometimes mouth best left shut.

If there is one LESSON ABOUT WARFARE… SINCE 9/11 IT HAS CHANGED.

Bombs don’t work, tanks don’t work, air suppot does not work, ground troops do not work, DOLLARS DO NOT WORK…

Because WHO, WHAT, WHERE AND WHEN to you FIND AN ENEMY TO KILL…

You blow it up… WHO PAYS TO REPAIR/REPLACE…

So WHO DO WE BOMB… WHO DO WE DESTORY… WHO DO WE BRIBE…

War is about KILLING the ENEMY… In the mind of a TERRORIST… ONE person kills many… WITHOUT AIRCRAFT, TANKS, GUNS..

Think about it… THE GENERALS/POLITICANS… care only that there is not a HIGH BODY COUNT of their troops.

Kroft: Mr. Secretary, what do you say to people who think this is about oil?
Rumsfeld: Nonsense. It just isn’t. There are certain things like that, myths, that are floating around. I’m glad you asked.

It has nothing to do with oil, literally nothing to do with oil. It has nothing to do with the religion. People who have a viewpoint frequently throw up those two issues, and say, well, this is really against Muslims, which it certainly isn’t. The United States is the country that went in and helped Kuwait, a Muslim country.

We worked in Bosnia to stop ethnic cleansing. We’ve done Afghanistan. And it’s certainly not about oil. Oil is fungible, and people who own it want to sell it, and it will be available.

Kroft: Well, I’m afraid that’s going to have to do it for this afternoon, Mr. Secretary, we’ve run out of time.
Rumsfeld: That went fast.

The full story can be read here:

http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/bush/infinity.htm

And below are comments that don’t seem to convey the Secretary of State’s message of 2003:

American With Ties to Bush Administration Helped Write Iraq’s New Hydrocarbon Law That Gives Victor’s Term to US Big Oil Companies
« H E » Middle East :: World :: Nation :: email
posted 01-27-07

U.S.-tailored Iraqi oil alarm for producers, consumers”

… the U.S. occupation of Iraq seems to be about to grab its oil prize by establishing a new sharing arrangement between a major national producer and the multi-national giants…This prize has been the dream of successive U.S. administrations: on January 18th, they came one step closer to reality when Iraq’s Oil Committee approved the new draft hydrocarbon law, sent it to the cabinet within a week and, when approved, will go to the parliament immediately thereafter.

The early draft of the law was prepared by BearingPoint American consultants, hired by the Bush administration, and sent to the White House and major Western petroleum corporations in July, and then to the International Monetary Fund two months later, while most Iraqi legislators and the public remained in the dark.

The full story can be read here:

http://dotcommonsense.blog-city.com/americans_with_ties_to_bush_administration_helped_write_iraq.htm

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

And the Bush team, using YELLOW CAKE as a prop, decided to go to war with Iraq. The reason/s: Saddam Hussein, terrorists and exporting of democracy.

If you look at the behavior of the Bush team’s war effort, terrorist and exporting of democracy seems not important.

If fighting terrorist was a main reason, then why was Iraq left in a state that contributed to the growth and export of terrorism – CHAOS. And this state of CHAOS provided the training camp for terrorists for some four years?

If exporting democracy was a main reason, why were the civilians left without a government for four years?

Was it the oil? Did everything else get trashed to get to the oil?

Some of these OLD FARTS need to put on a FLAK JACKET.. RIDE

And the Bush team went into its bomb shelter taking along its invited neocon guests. And when it was all over and the Bush team and its guest came out they got into their vehicles and drove to work.

Everything was as it was before they headed into their bomb shelters.

But when they looked – up in the sky- it wasn’t a bird, it was a plane. And the plane’s marking said ENOLA GAY II.

Comment by upside00 — June 16, 2007 @ 9:07 pm

Sorry, No Oil = No Food There are no alternatives to how we grow food, transport food, keep food. Fertilizer is made with fossil fuel and we can’t rotate crops and let land rest to grow enough. All irrigation depends on fossil fuel too. If there were another way we would do it. As it is the bees are all but gone.

Once you get to the place of reason and deeper understanding you will see that there are only two ways and they are both DISMAL. The non peakers want to think this can all go on and on for many decades. The greens believe they can just change some things and it will all work out but never mention the class war. The rest know blackouts are on the way!

I say we hunker down and shut everything off and restructure our towns as centers to farms and use the last of the oil to keep up with the food demand till we are able to intelligently reduce the population.

No one is going to do that plan though so plan B is WW3 and that seems to be the plan.

Iran is surrounded by countries with “nukular” weapons: Pakistan, China, Iraq (aka US war loot), Russia.

The way to solve this if you’re really serious about nuclear proliferation is to get everyone round a table and offer a nuclear free middle east that everyone can buy into.

The biggest threat to humanity now is the nuclear weapons possessed by the US. No one else is as likely to use it as you.

Common – you’re 5 per cent of the world’s population using easily 30 to 60 % of its oil, zinc, tin, copper, rubber etc. You’re a country full of overweight and wasteful people.

Can’t you cut the world some slack and take care of your crazies? Everyone else does a better job than you on this!