Health care industry braces for Sicko.
Health care industry braces for Sicko.
The U.S. health-care industry has the June 29 premiere of Michael Moore’s new film Sicko “circled on its calendar… For-profit providers of health care are the controversial and award-winning filmmaker’s latest target.”
“I don’t think Michael Moore set out to make a balanced movie,” said Karen Ignagni, president America’s Health Insurance Plans, a trade group. “He set out to make a movie about government-run systems and imposing them on the United States as the solution to the health-care crisis.” [...]
Managed-health-care provider Amerigroup Corp.’s chairman and chief executive, Jeff McWaters, in his remarks at a recent investment-banking conference, listed the film’s coming release among the “headline risks” for the industry overall.
The trade group that represents the drug industry, Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America, issued a statement last month deriding both the movie and Moore himself. [...]
Moore “has no intention of being fair and balanced,” [the group's vice president Ken] Johnson said.
In the run-up to a Washington DC screening of Sicko, Moore has taken out a front-page ad listing dozens of health care lobbyists by name, inviting them to watch the film.
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“I don’t think Michael Moore set out to make a balanced movie,†said Karen Ignagni, president America’s Health Insurance Plans.
Moore “has no intention of being fair and balanced,†[the group’s vice president Ken] Johnson said.
Apparently, if you can read Michael Moore's mind, you don't have to watch Sicko.
June 17th, 2007 at 12:06 pmIsn't it interesting that these large medical corporations use the same rhetoric "Fair and Balanced" as Fox News.
June 17th, 2007 at 12:10 pmand of course the insurance and health industries present such "fair and balanced" information. What a bunch of sickos.
June 17th, 2007 at 12:14 pmI'm too lazy to count all those names, but a cursory glance makes it clear that "dozens" of lobbyists doesn't begin to cover it. More like "hundreds". All of them critical to the democratic process, no doubt. Jeebus, no wonder health care costs are so high and Big Pharma (et al) profits so astronomical.
For what it's worth, I don't think Moore put out a "fair and balanced" movie either. I don't think that's what he does, nor is it what he should be doing. He's doing advocacy journalism, on behalf of working and middle class Americans and as irritating as Moore can be, I applaud his efforts.
And, yes Hank, it's pretty obvious that corporatists fall back on the FoxSnooze motto as if it had any meaning. "Fair and balanced" means a good saturation of right wing propaganda. Period.
June 17th, 2007 at 12:18 pm“has no intention of being fair and balanced,â€
Well, Michael Moore isn't Faux News silly!
June 17th, 2007 at 12:20 pmWhere is the balance in selling drugs to US citizens at a higher cost then anywhere else in the world even when they're made here.
A balanced movie would apparently ingore such issues as they are ignored every day by the corporate media.
June 17th, 2007 at 12:23 pmlet the curtains roll and heads too
June 17th, 2007 at 12:28 pmDid Karen Ignagni say,
“He set out to make a movie about government-run systems and imposing them on the United States as the solution to the health-care crisis.â€
Sooo there is a health care crisis.
Right from the president of America’s Health Insurance Plans!!!
Well what does she suggest? She admit her own failure!!!
June 17th, 2007 at 12:36 pmFair and Balanced is only for those who can afford it. The rest of us flap uselessly in the wind. Justice is for the poor. The rich usually buy their way out (or get pardoned). Death is for the poor, the rich can buy an alternative. Right to life is for those who can afford it (look at the boy in Texas who recently died, where the health care providers were allowed by law - a law that Bush signed into effect - to pull his plug) just like abortions. Force more poor children into the world so they can serve at the pleasure of their slave masters (especially for the neverending wars which we seem to be heading towards). Crappy education, poor health care, limited social services, and even worse government for crisis (how many more New Orleans will there be?) is what the GOP wants. Everything for those who have with those who don't providing resources to continue to line those pockets and coffers.
It never ceases to amaze me that supposedly thinking people in this country support so many things that are bad for them, simply because they are told to do so. Fair and Balanced has become a catch phrase to spin lies and deceit.
How wildly amusing that the industry chose to use that tagline.
June 17th, 2007 at 12:37 pmactually Mike was quite fair on Oprah - he said that all these CEO's and execs have a fiduciary duty to make a profit. That's the law. So he didn't blame them personally, but it's obvious we need to change the system.
June 17th, 2007 at 12:40 pmwe all know that moore isn't going to be 'fair and balanced'......but that isn't the point. he's a propagandist (and, for those who really know him, an asshole).
the point is: he's right that the system ain't working. and by following patients around, he is gathering some evidence. this is key.
and is it really all that outrageous to claim that we should model our system on canada's? it's not like canada's system isn't working.
June 17th, 2007 at 12:44 pmI think Michael Moore will have more room to be fair and balanced when the the U.S. health care industry treats its "customers" with fairness and balance. Univeral health care is coming; it's only a question of how long the corporatists can hold on, sucking out every last bit of profit at the expense of sick people, until they're finally kicked away from America's jugular.
June 17th, 2007 at 12:49 pmFirst off, I agree with the first seven posts up there (the only ones still there when I starting writing this.) I, too, immediately thought how strange that they would use FNC's idiotic interpretation of journalism. And gummitch is right in that journalism does not require balance, it requires objectivity. But more than simply objectivity, it requires an honest assessment of the facts presented. Good posts, everyone.
Now, I have been roundly criticized to various degrees about my opinion that healthcare should not be an industry driven by capitalism, but by altruism. I have said that I find it unconscionable that someone (a doctor or an insurance provider) would put profits ahead of caring for the sick and dying. I guess my biggest mistake was in not choosing my words more carefully. Whether intentional or not, I left some with the impression that I think it should all be free of charge to everyone. Obviously that can't work. Perhaps this happened because in searching for the right words to use, I decided on "altruism" as the counter-force to "capitalism". Perhaps I should have phrased the whole idea differently. I should have said that healthcare ought to be a non-for-profit industry. That, in essence, is what I really meant. And I can thank Michael Moore for helping me find my wording:
That's how I meant to put it. Not-for-profit. Pay for it, yes, but not so much that the insurance and pharmaceutical industries get stinking rich off the sick and dying.
June 17th, 2007 at 12:54 pmI just saw sicko, yup free download, and it is time to MAKE our govt fear the people.
June 17th, 2007 at 1:00 pmFai and balanced? Give me a frickin' break!
Like gummitch said, it's not the job of the press to be "fair and balanced," and it's certainly not Michael Moore's job as a filmmaker. How do you take an issue like healthcare in America and try to "balance it?
Wayne,
Well said, as usual. I'd aways wondered how you thought an "altruism" run system would work, since, sadly enough, most people simply aren't driven by altruism. Not for profit makes it much clearer, and in my thinking, more workable. :)
June 17th, 2007 at 1:01 pmI just saw sicko, yup free download, and it is time to MAKE our govt fear the people.
Comment by Fan_of_Man
Make sure you go see it in the theater as well. Geez....
June 17th, 2007 at 1:02 pmHonest Abe was a railroad lawyer. In the 1800s Abe did something that changed the US Constitution for all time. Corporations became voting individuals and were no longer allowed to be scrutinized by the public…
As a result of WW2 the UK became more democratic and started socialized medicine and has better health and health care than the USA that decided to let corporations manage our health.
The fact is that we will all get sick at some point and when we are at our physical worst more stress is added to our lives by debt. I have watched this movie and regardless of what you people think it can be summed up in Cuba the best.
Moore went to Cuba with 9-11 rescue workers. They went to a hospital in Cuba and were treated with care free of charge while for all of these years the USA has embargoed Cuba and hurt the lives of Cubans. Their doctors treated our people with dignity and respect while our government treats Cubans like trash.
When people here claim that socialized medicine in the USA is bad for us or dangerous they completely discount the truth that we have socialized most other things like fire, police, schools and jails. These people are not willing to be part of a community any longer. They are selfish and don’t even feel shame when they denounce actual health care rather than corporate profits.
Bush doesn’t want socialized health care and yet he does want war. You could use Bush as a reverse barometer of governmental corporate plutocracy. If Bush is for something odds are that we should be against it. If Bush is against something we should be for it. Most of you seem to want gay marriage but Bush does not. I don’t want gay marriage but I will accept what the majority wants. Bush explains that he is Christian and yet the reality is that true Christians want socialized medicine.
I am thinking that this site is flawed since progressive thinking would be the ratification of socialized medicine in the USA like England, Canada, Cuba, France, Russia, Germany, Japan, South Korea, etc. all have. Sick people are both democrats and republicans. Elderly folks in the US are suffering and people are losing their homes due to health care. Our congress has topped over $600,000,000,000.00 just for the war and people are thrown in the streets here.
Many of you would say something like, “Well that is tough SH*T for them!!†If that is what it comes to and citizens say such things to their fellow citizens we have lost all hope as a nation or people. We are just as evil as our government. You pay taxes spent to kill people in Iraq when those people did not attack the WTC but will not pay so that we can de-corporatize a medical system that makes money by keeping you sick!
We need general strikes and revolts just to stop the violence and should we go that distance you will stop at allowing the corporate plutocracy to continue unfettered? True hypocrisy like that is unthinkable but the US is all about “dog eat dog†now just like the post I submitted in the Bombing of Iran thread. You want gay marriage and I want you to be happy together. I want socialized medicine but you don’t want me to be happy.
As long as this standoff exists we are all divided. I suggest people here be careful about what they read. Things may appear to be sensible but in truth most of this is misdirection to achieve the political goal of public division. How in the world could the general public not want to create socialized medicine along with our fire and rescue, military, coastguard and the rest?
June 17th, 2007 at 1:03 pmWayne, from what I have read from you (on this and other topics), I think you're right on the money (hehehe...sorry).
Heathcare should not be decided by some prick in a corner office. You get it but you don't. I like your name but yours...nope, no healthcare for you!
I had a GREAT doctor who left my state because of the way the managed care tied his hands. I know many who have left Illinois for varying related issues. They are moving to Wisconsin. Frivolous lawsuits don't help (but there are times a doctor should be held accountable).
I don't mind paying for good healthcare (when it was available, I opted for the highest premiums so I could get good care), but even the days of good healthcare have passed us by. Now, I pay out the nose for $hit care, and that's when they deem it that I may be blessed with any care.
Seeing sick people dumped on the side of the road or dying in an emergency room because people just don't give a $hit about others...what a sad world we now live in.
Moore took this behemouth on and is now being investigated. Ah, America at its finest.
June 17th, 2007 at 1:08 pmAny day now, a "grassroots" group called Health Care Patients for Truth, funded by HMO's, will rise up to tell us how their health care is teh awesome, and that Michael Moore is a closet Communist. Also, anyone that fat shouldn't be talking about health care.
June 17th, 2007 at 1:09 pmfreedomrings
Liberals would not deny someone medical treatment simply because they follow a different political ideology. The idea is that everyone gets treated, not just the people we like.
And sorry, that IS the liberal standpoint.
Back to the thread:
Reality is not balanced, but it is fair. If these guys don't like how they come out under scrutiny, then maybe they should stop, I don't know, being the No1 cause of bankruptcies in America.
June 17th, 2007 at 1:13 pmno thanks zooey.... no need to. :)
June 17th, 2007 at 1:18 pmAny day now, a “grassroots†group called Health Care Patients for Truth, funded by HMO’s, will rise up to tell us how their health care is teh awesome, and that Michael Moore is a closet Communist. Also, anyone that fat shouldn’t be talking about health care.
Comment by AkaDad — June 17, 2007 @ 1:09 pm
I was wondering if you actually read what you write before you post it? It looks like you are a bigot. You despise fat people and you love pointing your fingers. I wonder how perfect you are? I wonder if you have glasses or if anyone in your family has diabetes? I realize that you don’t understand the meaning of compassion. Odds are you are violent! Thank you for allowing to see your thought processes at work AkaDad.
June 17th, 2007 at 1:18 pmReality is not balanced, but it is fair. If these guys don’t like how they come out under scrutiny, then maybe they should stop, I don’t know, being the No1 cause of bankruptcies in America.
Comment by Bruce Gorton
Many Americans are one trip to the ER away from bankruptcy, and a lot of them don't recognize themselves because they have no idea just how much an emergency can cost.
My father acquired a staph infection in his heart and had to have his aortic valve replaced. He stopped adding up the bills when they reached $150,000. Luckily, he has excellent insurance, and a supplement, and it didn't cost him a dime.
Many people don't realize that just paying their 20% might break them, even if they have insurance.
June 17th, 2007 at 1:22 pmno thanks zooey…. no need to. :)
Comment by Fan_of_Man
Sorry, but that's called stealing.
Just sayin'.
June 17th, 2007 at 1:23 pmThanks Zooey and MsJoanne. Hopefully I won't get trounced upon from now on when I bring up my idea.
slightly OT - coming soon to my blog, my thoughts on what we must do to get rid of the Democrats and Republicans who have served Corporate America better than the people: Choose another party.
Give 'Em The Bird, Vote For A Third.
(I say slightly off-topic because if we change the people in Washington, we might stand a better chance of getting the things we need out of them, like Universal Healthcare.)
June 17th, 2007 at 1:23 pmThank you for allowing to see your thought processes at work AkaDad.
Comment by freedomrings
Maybe YOU should read what AkaDad said. He was clearly being sarcastic.
June 17th, 2007 at 1:24 pmi can even see a FOR profit system...
it's the OBSENE profits, together with the ABUSE,
that i have a problem with...
take out the insurance cos - they have lots of
other things to insure for those inclined to bet, either way...
but college costs (too much) money and so does life...
and ALL healthcare workers deserve a commensurate
salary for their service and dedication... as do teachers...
well, EVERYone, of course...
("commensurate" being the key here)...
but the OBSENE PROFITS and OBSENE SALARIES
June 17th, 2007 at 1:24 pmare what i have a problem with...
it's just sinful...
.
Liberals would not deny someone medical treatment simply because they follow a different political ideology. The idea is that everyone gets treated, not just the people we like.
And sorry, that IS the liberal standpoint.
Back to the thread:
Reality is not balanced, but it is fair. If these guys don’t like how they come out under scrutiny, then maybe they should stop, I don’t know, being the No1 cause of bankruptcies in America.
Comment by Bruce Gorton — June 17, 2007 @ 1:13 pm
Could you repost this thread but do it in practical terms? I think my confusion about your post is that it reads like “doublespeak†and that happens to be “double plus not goodâ€.
June 17th, 2007 at 1:27 pmI just saw sicko, yup free download,...
Comment by Fan_of_Man — June 17, 2007 @ 1:00 pm
not cool... unless moore released that...
i don't think so...
be sure to PAY for it...
June 17th, 2007 at 1:33 pmgive michael moore his due...
Maybe YOU should read what AkaDad said. He was clearly being sarcastic.
Comment by Zooey — June 17, 2007 @ 1:24 pm
Maybe YOU should realize that AkaDad didn’t use these little things “â€â€â€â€â€â€â€â€â€â€â€ and that would have made his sarcasm more clear!
June 17th, 2007 at 1:35 pmMaybe YOU should tell AkaDad to be clearer or maybe you should just realize that socialized medicine is a wedge issue and that some people here are being screwed by the insurance companies that people like Nixon made possible!
Post something about the topic since time is short!
You can tell that big pharma is a pack of liars and thieves when they resort to the phrase of Fox, "Fair and balanced."
June 17th, 2007 at 1:36 pmnot cool… unless moore released that…
i don’t think so…
be sure to PAY for it…
give michael moore his due…
Comment by katy — June 17, 2007 @ 1:33 pm
Moore posted several dvd copies himself and has gone on the record that he is OK with that! So it is cool!
June 17th, 2007 at 1:37 pmPost something about the topic since time is short!
Comment by freedomrings
I already have posted several items on the topic, so STFU.
June 17th, 2007 at 1:41 pmMoore IS being FAIR. He is telling the TRUTH.
There is NO REASON to "balance" the TRUTH with the LIES of Pharma.
June 17th, 2007 at 1:43 pmI already have posted several items on the topic, so STFU.
Comment by Zooey — June 17, 2007 @ 1:41 pm
Great language skills but I will pass on shutting the blank up and recommend that you take your own advice. Thanks!
June 17th, 2007 at 1:47 pmI did use Ҡaround the word grassroots...
June 17th, 2007 at 1:53 pmWould you be willing to pay $2000 a month more in taxes if it meant everyone had free health care?
June 17th, 2007 at 1:56 pmfreedomrings
You seemed to be posting that this site, as a liberal progressive site, is frequented by a majority who would say "Screw them!" to the sick.
The liberal point of view on healthcare however, is in favour of public healthcare rather then private.
As such you are speaking to people whose real response is not "Screw them" but rather that "This is terrible, what can we do about it, and why aren't we doing it?" The screw-them approach is basically the conservative end to it.
While a lot of people think that such arguments should be apolitical the fact is that any moves made by any government are going to be political, with a conservative and a liberal argument on it.
If I misunderstood your post, I appologise.
The second part of my post was not particularly adressed to you but rather to the original story. Reality does not take sides, but frequently one side can be right and balance has nothing to do with it.
Fair is not always the way we would like something to be, and it is not always being nice, it is fair. If you do bad it is perfectly fair for people to portray you in a negative manner. If you stuff up, you take the consequences and that is fair. If you are incompetent you should be fired, even if you are the president of the United States and that is fair.
Balance between viewpoints is not a holy, wholly valid concept - sometimes one side is right and the other is wrong. Balance is a concept more likely to appear alligned to the concept of mercy, which though normally used by liberal to do good, is also perverted by those who wish to have their chance to lie in the face of overwhelming evidence against them.
Balance when applied to fact works against fairness. Facts are facts and they frequently favour one side of an argument.
June 17th, 2007 at 2:00 pmI did use “†around the word grassroots…
Comment by AkaDad — June 17, 2007 @ 1:53 pm
Sorry I should have realized that it was sarcastic but honestly all I saw was the last part about Moore being fat. Look at it like this…
Here is your quote:
Any day now, a “grassroots†group called Health Care Patients for Truth, funded by HMO’s, will rise up to tell us how their health care is the(SIC) awesome, and that Michael Moore is a closet Communist. Also, anyone that fat shouldn’t be talking about health care.
Now if you wrote this it would be clear who to attribute what to:
Any day now, a grassroots group called Health Care Patients for Truth, funded by HMO’s, will rise up to tell us how their health care is awesome, and that Michael Moore is a closet Communist. You would expect a group like that to say, “Anyone that fat shouldn’t be talking about health care!â€
As it was I honed in on your, “Also, anyone that fat shouldn’t be talking about health care.†When I read it I attributes that statement to you rather than the Health Care Patients for Truth.
June 17th, 2007 at 2:05 pmFrom the perspective of the top 10% it will be a terrible day when the Michale Moore types succeed in getting the 90% of us to realize that we can use the US Governmen to benefit us, and not just the profits, the welfare, and the perpetuation of the top 10%.
No one runs around yelling about "socialism" or "communism" when we establish a national military, or a national freeway system, or the FDA and even wingers are really happy to get that social security check when they qualify. Why don't wingers go ape shit over no bid defense contracts? I don't see the dynamics of capitalism working when Cheney's pals get to dip into billions of tax payer's money? That's not capitalism, but socialism for the few. Well how about a taste of socialism for the many?
Bring on single payer national health care!!!!
June 17th, 2007 at 2:11 pmComment by Bruce Gorton — June 17, 2007 @ 2:00 pm
OK I accept that! Consider this a misunderstanding between you and me. I will say that many people on 2 threads relating to the topic have made bold statements that support the existing juggernaut called US health care. It is beyond my comprehension as to how anyone posting here can support a corporate plutocracy in any way at all!
June 17th, 2007 at 2:11 pm"Moore “has no intention of being fair and balanced,†[the group’s vice president Ken] Johnson said."
Of course not.
His intention is to use half-truths, and to not tell the whole story, so that his film can purport a shocking story with an air of righteousness.
He gots t' git paid, kno'm'ta'kin'bout!!!
June 17th, 2007 at 2:12 pm"The powers that be keep the poor and middle class hopeless and tied to debt..." If people in America would wake up and smell the coffee they would understand that people are being killed at the cost of money. Usually when people kill people for money they are sent to jail, not rewarded. Think about our so-called Democracy if by the true definition that we all have the power to vote. Sadly, as the movie goes on to say many people are tied to the debt they have and to their jobs, they fear the system. Think of similar governments in where the people fear the system.
We need a universal health care system. Sadly there are two kinds of people in the United States. People who are sick and people who are rich enough to not be sick or care for others concerns.
June 17th, 2007 at 2:17 pmi can even see a FOR profit system…
it’s the OBSENE profits, together with the ABUSE,
that i have a problem with…
Comment by katy — June 17, 2007 @ 1:24 pm
I don't disagree, katy, and I'll admit that it is the obscene profits that prompted me to give thought to this. Perhaps even a modest profit could be allowed for the shareholders, but cap it at a certain percentage. Investors won't see huge returns on their investments, but the companies that can and do often return a profit would make it almost a guaranteed investment, like treasury bonds or something. I haven't figured out what should be done with the excess profits above the cap. Just a thought: national debt reduction? Then the ones who rake in huge profits will benefit both their investors and their country. As I said, just a thought.
June 17th, 2007 at 2:18 pmOf course not.
His intention is to use half-truths, and to not tell the whole story, so that his film can purport a shocking story with an air of righteousness.
He gots t’ git paid, kno’m'ta’kin’bout!!!
Comment by PRIMVS INTER PARES — June 17, 2007 @ 2:12 pm
US hospitals kick patients to the curb literally in nothing but hospital gowns. Moore balances that fact against France, England and Canada who would not do such a thing! That is fair and balanced! Now what side of this are you on since after reading that it sounds like you approve of the way things are allowed to go on here in the USA?
June 17th, 2007 at 2:19 pmNow what side of this are you on since after reading that it sounds like you approve of the way things are allowed to go on here in the USA?
Comment by freedomrings — June 17, 2007 @ 2:19 pm
What side am I on?
What the are talking about? We are (mostly) all Americans here, and I don't believe in taking "sides."
Of course I want free health-care, but that is not what my comment was about. If I were to have used the statement in my post #40 in relation to anything other than the quote stated above then it would not have been relavent.
I am making a statement about Moore's bias or lack thereof concerning the film making process, but it seems that you have tried to turn that into a representation of my personal views about health-care. However, that is simply not the case.
You don't have to be a Moore fan to want better health-care, I'm sorry if I conform to your standards.
June 17th, 2007 at 2:29 pmErratum: post #44) line 11 - should read: "not have been relevant."
June 17th, 2007 at 2:31 pmWhat side am I on?
What the are talking about? We are (mostly) all Americans here, and I don’t believe in taking “sides.â€
Of course I want free health-care, but that is not what my comment was about. If I were to have used the statement in my post #40 in relation to anything other than the quote stated above then it would not have been relavent.
I am making a statement about Moore’s bias or lack thereof concerning the film making process, but it seems that you have tried to turn that into a representation of my personal views about health-care. However, that is simply not the case.
You don’t have to be a Moore fan to want better health-care, I’m sorry if I conform to your standards.
Comment by PRIMVS INTER PARES — June 17, 2007 @ 2:29 pm
You stated:
“His intention is to use half-truths, and to not tell the whole story, so that his film can purport a shocking story with an air of righteousness.â€
I stated:
“US hospitals kick patients to the curb literally in nothing but hospital gowns. Moore balances that fact against France, England and Canada who would not do such a thing! That is fair and balanced!â€
I went on and asked you directly:
†Now what side of this are you on since after reading that it sounds like you approve of the way things are allowed to go on here in the USA?â€
You respond with:
“What side am I on?
What the(SIC) are talking about? We are (mostly) all Americans here, and I don’t believe in taking “sides.â€
Of course I want free health-care, but that is not what my comment was about. If I were to have used the statement in my post #40 in relation to anything other than the quote stated above then it would not have been relavent(SIC).
I am making a statement about Moore’s bias or lack thereof concerning the film making process, but it seems that you have tried to turn that into a representation of my personal views about health-care. However, that is simply not the case.
You don’t have to be a Moore fan to want better health-care, I’m sorry if I conform to your standards.â€
Now here we are and when you said:
“His intention is to use half-truths, and to not tell the whole story, so that his film can purport a shocking story with an air of righteousness.â€
You seem to know something about Moore here that may in fact be FUD on your part. I would go on to state that your statement incriminates you as a supporter for the current dogma in corporate plutocracy. Now you attempt to clarify your stance and then twist my legitimate question to have matters appear that you support socialized medicine like Moore does even though you know for a fact his intention is to as you say, “use half-truths, and to not tell the whole story, so that his film can purport a shocking story with an air of righteousness.â€
I think my question to you was fair and I will put it out to you and the rest one more time to see it for what it is and how your response has an air of FUD to it!:
“Now what side of this are you on since after reading that it sounds like you approve of the way things are allowed to go on here in the USA?â€
June 17th, 2007 at 2:48 pmPRIMVS INTER PARES
Moore doesn't make any secret of his beliefs or his bias. The facts he uses in his arguments are surprisingly reliable - but you have to keep in mind that Moore is not trying to be fair or balanced and thus to try and use him not being fair or balanced as a counter to his effectiveness is to basically admit that you didn't get the point to the movie.
A Michael Moore movie is there to present an argument, and the question is, do you agree with his argument?
June 17th, 2007 at 2:51 pmComment by freedomrings — June 17, 2007 @ 2:48 pm
OK, I'm gonna make this real simple for ya...
YES, I want FREE health-care
NO, I am not a fan of Michael Moore
June 17th, 2007 at 2:53 pmMoore doesn’t make any secret of his beliefs or his bias. The facts he uses in his arguments are surprisingly reliable - but you have to keep in mind that Moore is not trying to be fair or balanced and thus to try and use him not being fair or balanced as a counter to his effectiveness is to basically admit that you didn’t get the point to the movie.
A Michael Moore movie is there to present an argument, and the question is, do you agree with his argument?
Comment by Bruce Gorton — June 17, 2007 @ 2:51 pm
Thank you, Bruce.
That is all that I was saying in post #40, I was just pointing out the obvious statement made by Ken Johnson which I quoted.
Do I agree? Well, I haven't heard his specific arguments so I can not say. But I can tell you one thing, everyone needs health-care so anyone in their right mind would want it to be as cheap as possible, so long as it does not come at the expense of quality.
June 17th, 2007 at 2:58 pmre#49 PRIMVS INTER PARES
Poor quality health care is better than no health care at all!
June 17th, 2007 at 3:04 pmhuh...
June 17th, 2007 at 3:07 pmi just heard a news report that michael moore is not at all upset
that his film has been downloaded... that he won't be prosecuting anyone for that... he disagrees with some copyright laws anyway...
... huh...
so, great! ... there ya go!
...
Comment by PRIMVS INTER PARES — June 17, 2007 @ 2:53 pm
Wow that was great. It was easy too just like smiling! I ask a question and get a direct reply. No mucking about in ambiguity and pontification.
I happen to like Moore and this body of work was pretty easy for him since it appears to me that the content speaks for itself. I don’t want “Free Health Care†but I know what you mean by free. Taxes pay for health services and doctors could (like in England) receive bonuses for helping people to be healthy. This would be money well spent.
One of the fears Americans have is mismanagement of those taxes. Like Moore pointed out most Americans now seem to fear the government unlike citizens of France and England. I wept over the subtle point that Cuban doctors treated Americans like dignified humans that they deserve to be treated like.
Thank You ïŠ
June 17th, 2007 at 3:10 pmMoore posted several dvd copies himself and has gone on the record that he is OK with that! So it is cool!
Comment by freedomrings — June 17, 2007 @ 1:37 pm
yea... i stepped out for a while... just came back to post
what was news to me...
are you "related" to 'saywho' per chance?
June 17th, 2007 at 3:11 pm...
yea… i stepped out for a while… just came back to post
what was news to me…
are you “related†to ’saywho’ per chance?
…
Comment by katy — June 17, 2007 @ 3:11 pm
????
June 17th, 2007 at 3:14 pmDoes fair and balanced mean continuing the screw job to an unaware America for those immorally profiteering from this joke of a health care system? The rats are being exposed on this too.
June 17th, 2007 at 3:21 pmDoes fair and balanced mean continuing the screw job to an unaware America for those immorally profiteering from this joke of a health care system? The rats are being exposed on this too.
Comment by had enough — June 17, 2007 @ 3:21 pm
Yea, like H. Clinton taking lots of money from the insurance lobby. It makes you wonder if that was not her plan from Jump Street. She went public with “the plan†and I would imagine that the main reason was to attract those big “shut up†checks. If she was sincere then no money would have been enough to obtain her silence. This ties in nicely w/ my current theory that just about everyone is full of it!
June 17th, 2007 at 3:28 pmre#49 PRIMVS INTER PARES
Poor quality health care is better than no health care at all!
Comment by criticalthinker — June 17, 2007 @ 3:04 pm
I wouldn't be so quick to agree with that. You wouldn't want to go back to the days when doctors thought that cutting open your wrists and letting some blood out would cure you of problems like anemia. And you wouldn't want to go to a psychic surgeon, I think.
Just sayin', is all.
June 17th, 2007 at 3:31 pmComment by Wayne A. Schneider — June 17, 2007 @ 2:18 pm
good, interesting thoughts there...
just to be sure, what i think this country needs, NOW,
is single-pay universal health care coverage...
ain't nothin' free...
June 17th, 2007 at 3:43 pm.
Yea, like H. Clinton taking lots of money from the insurance lobby. It makes you wonder if that was not her plan from Jump Street. She went public with “the plan†and I would imagine that the main reason was to attract those big “shut up†checks. If she was sincere then no money would have been enough to obtain her silence. This ties in nicely w/ my current theory that just about everyone is full of it!
Comment by freedomrings
Hilliary is such a corporatist - something we desperately need to get away from. After this movie gets out there, maybe Kucinich well gain some % points. He is the only one with a plan to go single payer - eliminate the insurance companies.
June 17th, 2007 at 3:44 pmComment by Wayne A. Schneider — June 17, 2007 @ 3:31 pm
Why bother posting that at all? Was there some actual point beyond the FUD found in, “Just sayin’, is all?†Wayne, one day you will be unwell and frankly you may have to sell your home to pay your deductibles. Even though your posts read like trash losing your home because you’re ill is possible. My father had a 5cm tumor removed by a neurosurgeon who insisted that it would improve the quality of his life. He passed away less than two weeks later. That doctor is still attacking my mother for payment and has threatened to go after her home. The surgery (not anesthesia) was billed at $125,000.00.
I wanted my father to stay home with Hospice and the surgeon convinced my mother to go with the full treatment. He was 4th stage and had tumors all through his body. He had great insurance and his surgeon did get the tumor out but the idea was that his condition was so bad that honesty was required. He gave my mother and father hope for a year when he knew that he would get $125,000.00 no matter what happened as long as my dad didn’t die before the surgery. In the end the insurance company only paid ½ and the doctor is going after my mother (nearly 80 YO now).
We are all going to get sick Wayne!
June 17th, 2007 at 3:56 pmjust to be sure, what i think this country needs, NOW,
is single-pay universal health care coverage…
ain’t nothin’ free…
.
Comment by katy
Our country, as compared to others spend an overwhelmingly amount on defense. If we could cut that pie a
June 17th, 2007 at 3:59 pmlittle different - tax dollars going to health care instead of defense, we may be able to pull off a universal health care system with ease.
Comment by had enough — June 17, 2007 @ 3:44 pm
I'm thinking general strikes followed by massive protests followed by open revolt. Naturally we could make that as long or brief as needed depending on when the politicians surrender to the will of the people!
Out of all of the people running Ron Paul seems to be the most realistic if my opinion matters. That being said I don't know what his stand on socialized medicine is but the elections are so far off that I doubt we even have a year left going like this.
June 17th, 2007 at 4:03 pmpic of the pie
of heavy defense spending
http://www.truemajority.com/csba/priorities.php
June 17th, 2007 at 4:08 pmI’m thinking general strikes followed by massive protests followed by open revolt. Naturally we could make that as long or brief as needed depending on when the politicians surrender to the will of the people!
Out of all of the people running Ron Paul seems to be the most realistic if my opinion matters. That being said I don’t know what his stand on socialized medicine is but the elections are so far off that I doubt we even have a year left going like this.
Comment by freedomrings
A general strike is in the making... A serious one...
June 17th, 2007 at 4:35 pmMike Malloy, Raytaliaferro and others are talking about doing this agter the summer months - plan for everyone to stop what they are doing for a specified number of hours on an appointed day. The day picked will become known sometime during the summer and advertised long enough for the masses to catch on. A few hours for a strike does not sound like much, but it is believed if enough do it it will make a huge impact.
Comment by freedomrings — June 17, 2007 @ 3:10 pm
No, I actually meant that a want top notch quality health care, FOR FREE!!!
(who doesn't?)
June 17th, 2007 at 4:48 pmgodamit,
should read:
No, I actually meant that I want top notch quality health care, FOR FREE!!!
(who doesn’t?)
June 17th, 2007 at 4:49 pmComment by freedomrings — June 17, 2007 @ 3:56 pm
My condolences for your loss, and I apologize if my remarks offended you. I was merely giving some examples of poor quality healthcare that no one would want in place of nothing.
Yours sounds like the kind of story that Michael Moore would have wanted to hear. The surgeon sounds like a right bastard. In fact, no matter how skilled he is, it sounds like he went into medicine just for the money. He chose a course of treatment that, to me, sounds like it wasn't in the best interests of his patient. He doesn't deserve to collect his fee. He strikes me as the kind of person who has no business going into the healthcare field, as he apparently cared little for what was best for his patient.
When he inevitably gets the case into court, I hope your lawyer can portray him as a money-grubbing butthole who needlessly caused your family to suffer. Perhaps a countersuit would be in order.
Other than that, I was simply making a light-hearted observation. try not to take it so hard. Peace.
June 17th, 2007 at 4:57 pmIs it "fair and unbiased" for our government to restricit/prohibit the sale cheaper Canadian drugs here because "they might be unsafe" (when they are actually made here in the first place), while allowing China to dump cheap extremely unsafe food products here ?
June 17th, 2007 at 5:12 pmfreedomrings - there are so many stories like yours...so appalling. Apparently greed has eaten up the morality some physicians used to possess. I have literally watched someone close to me die because of no health care insurance. He lost his insurance, could not buy a plan as he had a pre existing heart condition and could not get medical care until the very end When he had the final heart attack then strokes. He was rushed to the hospital, put on life support - received excellent care when it was too late. Died 2 weeks later. He waqs a man in his 50's, too proud to go on SS and receive medicare.
June 17th, 2007 at 5:16 pmWe have 18,000 a year dying as they have no health care. These are not the elderly or disabled, but the working class.
I would think we could cut some of this in half... and give all proper health care. why do we need to spend almost half of our tax dollars on defense?
Comment by Kid Clu — June 17, 2007 @ 5:12 pm
Excellent point! Someone in our government should explain that to us, or end the prohibition on importing American-made drugs under the excuse that they are unsafe.
Either they are lying or they are telling the truth about these drugs.
If they're lying, then they have no justification for the ban.
If they're telling the truth, then why are we allowing these companies to export dangerous drugs?
June 17th, 2007 at 5:21 pmfreedomrings
A thought and this thread is probably dead, but as more and more are being screwed or know someone that has been, I wonder, if your mother took this issue to court, in front of a jury of her peers, what would the outcome be....:
My father had a 5cm tumor removed by a neurosurgeon who insisted that it would improve the quality of his life. He passed away less than two weeks later. That doctor is still attacking my mother for payment and has threatened to go after her home. The surgery (not anesthesia) was billed at $125,000.00.
I wanted my father to stay home with Hospice and the surgeon convinced my mother to go with the full treatment. He was 4th stage and had tumors all through his body. He had great insurance and his surgeon did get the tumor out but the idea was that his condition was so bad that honesty was required. He gave my mother and father hope for a year when he knew that he would get $125,000.00 no matter what happened as long as my dad didn’t die before the surgery. In the end the insurance company only paid ½ and the doctor is going after my mother (nearly 80 YO now).
June 17th, 2007 at 5:57 pmThis is just so outrageous...
The United States is the only industrialized nation that does not have universal health care. What is the difference between us and those other countries? Those other countries see health care as a right and not a privilege. The US corporatist see health care as a privilege and not a right. I guess that you could call me a socialist because I think that any industry that is necessary for our survival (gas, oil, water, health care, etc) should all be nationalized and distributed for the common good.
My fear is that the health care industry sees the handwriting on the wall and is going to try to negotiate some kind of system where they are still involved in the universal system so they can still gather their profits. All we need to do to get universal health care is to extend Medicare to all citizens in this country. It will need some tweaking because the government will have to pay a more far fee for services than they are now, but it could be done and it could be done quickly. And the system can be paid for by a health care tax on both the employer and the employee.
Universal health care is coming, just hope that it is not "privatized".
June 17th, 2007 at 7:27 pmComment by had enough — June 17, 2007 @ 5:57 pm
I had a long talk with my mother prior to accepting the surgery. She was as you can imagine “DEVISTATEDâ€. The doctors call procedures done in terminal patients “palliative†and when explained to the ill or family everything is done like it has been done 1000’s of times before. My position was to be honest with my father who after all just wanted to know the truth.
The whole situation set my family at war. I became the bad guy or the disease to be cut out by the majority of the relatives my brother and my mother. If you have “good†insurance doctors will have you go through all sorts of unnecessary tests and force families to sit bedside at all hours since it is a secret as to when these people make their rounds. The explain that even though one surgeon will not do a scoped lung biopsy since the patients health is to deteriorated another will do brain surgery to take a tumor that by all appearances came from the lung.
My dad was on his way to death but it has always been my observation that he would have survived longer if he had stayed home while I was able to care for him. I hate thinking about this and now I just feel waves of pain. It is at times like this that I start second guessing myself but I know that he would have been better off passing away at home. In addition to that he had a living will. When I arrived at the hospital to see his body they had to pull him back from the morgue.
He had a DNR and so there he was with a breathing tube down his throat. I held him and I can barely describe how I felt. I knew he was out of pain but angry at how he got there and I the breathing tube had to remain in as his body stiffened. This caused his jaw to have to be broken to close his mouth for the funeral. To this day my mother, brother and uncle blame me. I don’t know what to say about any final disposition since I have been more or less disowned.
The people at hospice were fantastic but in the end my mother, brother and uncle pushed me out and went with the surgical solution. So, my being 41 with a wife and kids I have for the most part lost my entire family in one fell swoop over a thing called “palliative surgery.†A good cry is good for the heart every now and again.
Thanks for all of your concern by the way. I can’t get my father back but maybe my experience can unify the posters here? In my opinion we are about to run out of time and due to 9-11, the war, the inflation, the interest, the job market, health care, etc. taking a stand is long overdue. Writing letters and posting is pale in the face of open protest and public dissent. It would be a shame to live for nothing at this point since I would rather die for freedom than continue to be a slave. I would hope that one of these threads is an organized call to the citizens into action in the face of our dictator and his crew of feudal lords in Congress.
June 17th, 2007 at 7:27 pmI don't think Michael Moore went far enough. The Infectious Disease Society of America cut off care and treatment for ALL lyme patients after 60 days regardless of length of infection or pt's symptoms and response. Medical Boards across America are investigating and disciplining doctors that treat lyme over 60 days now. Then after that little nightmare, Blue Cross Blue Shield moves in and sues for medical and insurance fraud.....
June 17th, 2007 at 7:33 pmRemember now, Chuck Schumer just got himself a bulls eye rash and Lyme Disease.
Hasn't mattered to anyone in America I don't get care..... but let's just see what happens with Senator Schumer. My guess is he gets what he NEEDS>
WHAT A CONCEPT>
to comment 11- CEOs will still run Universal Health Care. If you are lucky, you won't get sick. If you get sick, you won't get lucky
June 17th, 2007 at 7:35 pmA new study released this week revealed that Americans' health care varies dramatically from state to state. It should come as no surprise that in general Southern states ranked at the bottom in almost every category. After all, whether the issue is health, education, working conditions, or virtually any indicator of social pathology, things are worst in precisely those states that voted for George W. Bush.
For the details, see:
June 17th, 2007 at 7:35 pm"Health Care the Latest Red State Failure."
I had a very amusing incident recently relating to this topic. I was seeing a new Family Nurse Practitioner and we got talking about universal health care. She started ranting about "I don't want some government bureaucrat telling me how I can treat my patients" and I asked her, "how is that different than the private health care bureaucrat telling you how you can treat your patients". She just sat there looking at me with a stunned look on her face and really couldn't come up with an answer. Needless to say I passed on her as my health care provider.
I read recently that most health care professionals are firmly behind universal health care. Or at least the professionals who are not in it to get rich, but are in the profession to help other people.
June 17th, 2007 at 7:36 pm"Would you be willing to pay $2000 a month more in taxes if it meant everyone had free health care?"
Oh boy, here come the scare tactics. Anyone besides me remember Harry and Louise sitting in their kitchen talking about if Hillary's health care plan passes, you won't be able to choose your own doctor and your doctor won't be able to determine the case you get. Well, be careful what you wish for, you might get it. The health care industry ran those ads and guess what, they did what they were accusing Hillary of doing in her plan. So, when the scare tactics start, telling you that it will cost your $2000 a month more in taxes to provide universal health care, keep your wits about you and think critically and always pay attention to who is telling you what.
June 17th, 2007 at 7:42 pm..., but are in the profession to help other people.
Comment by Kate Henry — June 17, 2007 @ 7:36 pm
We need more of them in the field. I was always under the impression that helping people was the entire point of the medical practice.
June 17th, 2007 at 7:49 pmAND WHY , OH WHY DOES NO ONE EVER WANT TO DISCUSS THE CADILLAC, OR PERHAPS NOW WE SHOULD CALL IT THE LEXUS OF NATIONAL HEALTHCARE PLANS WHEN DEBATING AMERICA'S BROKEN HEALTHCARE INDUSTRY?
June 17th, 2007 at 7:51 pmOf course that national plan is the one the ISRAELI'S ENJOY. ISRAEL's NATIONAL HEALTH IS THE ONLY ONE IN THE WORLD WHERE A JEWISH CEO GETS THE SAME COVERAGE AS THE JEWISH HOURLY WAGE EARNER IN ISRAEL. And the benefits are GOOOOD! Check it out on the net.
Why is national health good enough for Israel, but not good for Americans?
They are after all our allies...aren't they?
...Harry and Louise sitting in their kitchen...
Comment by Kate Henry — June 17, 2007 @ 7:42 pm
I might be confusing this was something else, but didn't the people who made the anti-Clinton plan commercials use the same actors that the pro-Clinton plan people did? Or was that some other issue? (Apologies if I am mistaken.)
June 17th, 2007 at 7:52 pmMy father died of a stroke some years ago. He was admitted to the hospital on a Wednesday. He was awake and talking to me on Thursday. On Friday he did a power of attorney for me and we did a DNR order (do not resuscitate) to be put in his chart. This was a Catholic hospital and the person who did the DNR was a priest. Saturday morning he coded and the resuscitated him. I never spoke to him again. The hospital apologized for their mistake, but they kept him alive. After another 5 days, they had run out his medical benefits and they wanted to place him in a nursing home. Fortunately a hospice nurse was in the hospital and I asked her about this. She evaluated my dad and told me to take him home. Hospice arranged everything and I brought my father home to his house. Once he was settled he opened his eyes, smiled and died. I will be forever grateful to that hospice nurse who kept me from placing my father into a nursing home where he would have lived in a vegetative state for many more years. All that damn hospital cared about was their money. Once it was gone, my father was garbage to them to be discarded.
Hopefully if we get a universal health care system, we can start caring about the people who are sick or dying and stop looking at them as a dollar sign.
June 17th, 2007 at 7:54 pmKaren Ignagni, president America’s Health Insurance Plans, a trade group
also, President and CEO of the Commonwealth Fund, which has its origins in the philanthropic efforts of the Harkness family. Stephen V. Harkness began his career in New York State's Finger Lake region at age 15 as an apprentice harnessmaker. Harkness eventually settled in Ohio and became a successful businessman. He invested early in the petroleum refining business and provided funds at a critical moment in the history of the fledgling Standard Oil Company...
http://www.commonwealthfund.org/aboutus/aboutus_show.htm?doc_id=224821
Jeff McWaters, Managed-health-care provider Amerigroup Corp.’s chairman and chief executive ... has received $6.5 million in cash over that period. He owns almost $25 million in stock....
http://health-beauty-lifestyle.blogspot.com/2007/06/big-money-in-medicaid.html
and PhRMA, PhRMA represents the leading research-based pharmaceutical and biotechnology companies in the United States....
http://www.phrma.org/about_phrma/
moore may not "[have any] intention of being fair and balanced" but you cannot expempt yourselves from the same arguement
June 17th, 2007 at 8:32 pmI hope that this thread becomes the most active one here and 100s of posts help to rally the masses!
I realize that many of us are on different sides of some of the main issues. Many will disagree with me on my view that illegal aliens should not receive special treatment. I’m against carbon takes and believe that we should practice true conservation if we are going to except that oil is finite. This issue about the medical situation of the country should be egregious enough that a majority can be formed. If we relentlessly protested, posted, wrote and then shifted to general strikes we will see the truth that our nation is a corporate plutocracy.
We live under a daily condition of relentless class warfare and it is time to stop scurrying around like vermin. I’m sure this one issue can weld many different opinions together. Only the wealthy would resent socialized medicine even though they have to face the reaper too.
June 17th, 2007 at 8:59 pmfreedomrings
I am so sorry for your continued grief. I would think your father's wish would be that all was well and happy with you and your family. Your decision was right, but you must believe that.
I worked a number of years in respiratory therapy, and surprisingly the job is around death as we take care of life support - the ventilators. Your first post reminded me so much of what I saw in a few cases: Physicians taking advantage of distraught relatives - maybe unintentional but it was done. Ex: A wife's husband has a heart attack is put on a ventilator and he does not come out of his coma. After a month on the vent we all knew he was never going to make it. Still, the physician kept this man on a ventilator for 3 months. This poor woman was at his bedside every day. As it turned out the wife had a farm, which she lost to pay for the medical bills.
June 17th, 2007 at 10:02 pmAs the health care system is for profit, nurses have to reach a quota in giving care, If they can not justify enough work on a slow day, then you are asked to go home without pay. In respiratory, I will never forget my supervisor yelling at us down the hall as we left the office to begin work: "If you don't have enough work to do, then find it." In other words find that patient, one that had a c section and begin breathing exercises .
I could go on and on - it is so scandalous.
freedomrings
June 17th, 2007 at 10:21 pmAnd that F'er physician surgeon... I would not pay him a penny. If you father was in the hospice system, it was unheard of to suggest surgery of any kind. I feel so strongly he may have taken advantage of your family's grief.
I was hoping someone here with more knowledge in law would weigh in. But if cases like this started going to court, or if you threatened him with court action, and I am sure a jury of your peers would see it your way as so many are getting screwed, then maybe this greed could be held in check. I am sure this physician would not want his name smeared in court as appearances are everything to too many physicians.
Oh boy, here come the scare tactics. Anyone besides me remember Harry and Louise sitting in their kitchen talking about if Hillary’s health care plan passes, you won’t be able to choose your own doctor and your doctor won’t be able to determine the case you get. Well, be careful what you wish for, you might get it. The health care industry ran those ads and guess what, they did what they were accusing Hillary of doing in her plan. So, when the scare tactics start, telling you that it will cost your $2000 a month more in taxes to provide universal health care, keep your wits about you and think critically and always pay attention to who is telling you what.
Medicare costs $10k per year per person.
'Universal' healthcare is the path to bankruptcy.
June 17th, 2007 at 11:28 pmWhy don't liberals bash the lawsuit a$$holes who are swindling millions of dollars from our healthcare system?
June 17th, 2007 at 11:29 pmInvestors won’t see huge returns on their investments, but the companies that can and do often return a profit would make it almost a guaranteed investment, like treasury bonds or something. I haven’t figured out what should be done with the excess profits above the cap. Just a thought: national debt reduction? Then the ones who rake in huge profits will benefit both their investors and their country. As I said, just a thought.
Healthcare industry ROA and ROE is in the same ballpark as banking and silicon manufacturing. It's not huge.
June 17th, 2007 at 11:31 pmOur country, as compared to others spend an overwhelmingly amount on defense. If we could cut that pie a
little different - tax dollars going to health care instead of defense, we may be able to pull off a universal health care system with ease.
Nonsense! We spent far more on the military in the 40s, the 50s, the 60s, the 70s, and the 80s than we do today.
June 17th, 2007 at 11:32 pmI read recently that most health care professionals are firmly behind universal health care. Or at least the professionals who are not in it to get rich, but are in the profession to help other people.
Yeah, God forbid they do the same as actors, or athletes, and use their knowledge and skill to make a comfy living for their families.
Never mind that those same "other people" who you want to help will slap your sorry behind with a $10m lawsuit if you make a mistake. So much for compassion!
June 17th, 2007 at 11:35 pmm12
It is ridiculous we spend this half of our taxes go to the so called defense, while 18,000 tax payers a year are dying from lack of access to health care.
We are the only industrialized country that does not offer health care to all. It is immoral. Money should never buy life/health.
June 17th, 2007 at 11:52 pmWatch the movie when it comes out. You will see others from other countries laughing at us because of our sham of a health care system.
m12
June 18th, 2007 at 12:02 amwith the health care system the way it is, along with the bankruptcy laws the credit card co wrote you stand no chance of keeping your home if strapped with medical debt. We lose the middle class, the rich get richer - is that what you want?
Medicare costs $10k per year per person.
‘Universal’ healthcare is the path to bankruptcy.
Comment by m12 — June 17, 2007 @ 11:28 pm
I was *happy* to CORRECT you on this figure - IDIOT! You still missed the MOST IMPORTANT FACT that 7% of medicare makes up OVER HALF of the costs. A result of the cost of treating TERMINAL and VERY ILL ELDERLY! You HEARTLESS ST*PID LITTLE C*NT!
June 18th, 2007 at 12:26 amNonsense! We spent far more on the military in the 40s, the 50s, the 60s, the 70s, and the 80s than we do today. Comment by m12 — June 17, 2007 @ 11:32 pm
We also had a 90% tax rate on the wealthy. Are you ready for a RETURN to those days - C*NT?
June 18th, 2007 at 12:27 amthe truth is gonna hurt, so they might as well brace for the revolution in healthcare, we are being ripped off with the way it is now, for profit is not the way to take care of a nation of EQUAL RIGHTS citizens
IGNORE THE TROLLS - Debate good, Trolls suck
June 18th, 2007 at 12:28 amNever mind that those same “other people†who you want to help will slap your sorry behind with a $10m lawsuit if you make a mistake. So much for compassion! Comment by m12 — June 17, 2007 @ 11:35 pm
The NUMBER or PAYOUT of these lawsuits has NOT INCREASED - you MISERABLE ST*PID LITTLE USELESS IDI*T. This is nothing more than ANOTHER INSURANCE SCAM - this time targeting doctors. Very little LAWSUITS affect the cost of medicine - but it does affect the SMEAR you NAIVE LITTLE C*NT!
June 18th, 2007 at 12:29 amComment by freedomrings — June 17, 2007 @ 3:56 pm
My sympathies for your loss. It is hard enough to lose someone without the injustice heaped on top of it.
Please let me explain that Wayne knows full well the 'cost' of a devastating illness. Many here know that I lost both my parents a few years ago, 3 weeks apart. When my mother was diagnosed with terminal lung cancer that February, and was given less than a year to live, we knew that even with Blue Cross, expenses would be beyond anything any of the family could afford. She started on chemo (at the advice of her "kind" doctors), but that simply made her feel sick and weak all the time. Luckily, we were able to obtain home hospice care, but that's only free for 4 hours per day, so our family members had to step in and provide the nursing care for the other 20 hours per day. This takes its toll, not only physically and mentally, but monetarily as well, having to take time off from work so often, and, even though the Family Medical and Leave Act prevents one from losing one's job because of this, one still doesn't get paid if one misses work. So, while we didn't have to pay ALL of the doctor/hospital bills, there still wasn't as much money coming in. Wayne did his part of nursing, too, as, by the time my mum died, my dad was reduced to total dependency on his children. Luckily, we we also able to get the same hospice nurse for him, but, again, not for more than 6 hours per day. It sounds heartless, but we were terrified that he might continue to live long enough for us to have to hospitalize him or put him in a nursing home, but he died, as I said, 3 weeks after mum, on Christmas Eve day. While we did not lose our house in the process of all this, there were plenty of times when we feared that we couldn't pay the mortgage, and we went into deep enough debt to really scare us.
We all have our losses and our stories to tell. It can happen to any of us. May I suggest that you stop and think of that before you accuse other posters here of writing trash.
June 18th, 2007 at 12:32 amThe NUMBER or PAYOUT of these lawsuits has NOT INCREASED - you MISERABLE ST*PID LITTLE USELESS IDI*T. This is nothing more than ANOTHER INSURANCE SCAM - this time targeting doctors. Very little LAWSUITS affect the cost of medicine - but it does affect the SMEAR you NAIVE LITTLE C*NT!
Comment by ValiantVenusGrewFromUranus — June 18, 2007 @ 12:29 am
More useless, incorrect info from Dr. anus. ;)
June 18th, 2007 at 12:53 amWe have seen freedomrings before... it's a concern troll... just reminding y'all...
June 18th, 2007 at 1:00 amApparently, if you can read Michael Moore’s mind, you don’t have to watch Sicko.
Comment by Perry Logan — June 17, 2007 @ 12:06 pm
They are just judging him by his track record. Like the way you didn't ever have to watch the Anna Nicole show to know that it would be trash. ;)
June 18th, 2007 at 1:03 amHi, SKdeA! Missed you on the threads. Did you just arrive as I was about to turn in for the night? It's one o'clock in the morning (dammit, listen to me goood! Sorry, Channeling Elton John there for a moment. You know how I like music.), so I am waaaay past my bedtime. If you're interested, there's new stuff for you to see you know where. ;) ;)
Have a good night, everyone. (Again.)
June 18th, 2007 at 1:08 amthe truth is gonna hurt, so they might as well brace for the revolution in healthcare, we are being ripped off with the way it is now, for profit is not the way to take care of a nation of EQUAL RIGHTS citizens
Comment by Buck Fush — June 18, 2007 @ 12:28 am
You believed the Dems would come in like gangbusters and pull the troops out of Iraq or at least pass a timeline, and nothing happened. You believed they would impeach the pres; nothing again. Now you believe this movie will come out and, presto! all of America will suddenly become cheerleaders for socialized medicine? You need to face reality, bucky. ;)
June 18th, 2007 at 1:10 amComment by SKdeA — June 18, 2007 @ 1:00 am
Yeah, he's a little to quick to attack people.
Wayne's right, it's late, we need some sleep after posting until 4:00am Friday night and last night. This is too addictive! :-)
June 18th, 2007 at 1:14 amDamn! 'too' quick, not 'to'! Gotta go to bed!
'night, all!
June 18th, 2007 at 1:16 amComment by upright left — June 18, 2007 @ 1:10 am
Don't be silly. We knew that Bush was block any attempt to end the war (with the help of his party), so we didn't expect to succeed. We just expected them to try harder than they have, and for that they'll have to face the music.
And as for impeachment, we were all pissed as hell when Pelosi announced it was "off the table". We felt then, as we do now, that it wasn't her decision to make alone. She will learn what a mistake that was.
And no, we don't believe that "presto! all of America will become cheerleaders for socialized medicine". But we do believe that we can help change the debate and re-frame it in a way that can help us achieve our goals of Universal Health Coverage.
It's a start, and that's where you have to begin. It will take time, but we do believe that inthe long run, the nation will come to do what's morally right, as opposed to the for-profit healthcare system the richer among us enjoy today.
June 18th, 2007 at 1:17 amDon’t be silly. We knew that Bush was block any attempt to end the war (with the help of his party), so we didn’t expect to succeed. We just expected them to try harder than they have, and for that they’ll have to face the music.
And as for impeachment, we were all pissed as hell when Pelosi announced it was “off the tableâ€. We felt then, as we do now, that it wasn’t her decision to make alone. She will learn what a mistake that was.
Comment by Wayne A. Schneider — June 18, 2007 @ 1:17 am
Apparently you missed some threads, because quite a few folks here went nuts when the spending bill passed without a timeline. And they seemed genuinely shocked that politicians had done something other than what they promised to get elected.
June 18th, 2007 at 1:28 amHow do you take an issue like healthcare in America and try to “balance it?
Comment by Zooey — June 17, 2007 @ 1:01 pm
You show opposing views of proposed policies rather than taking one person's opinions as gospel. You examine the statistics to make sure they haven't been distorted to support a false conclusion. It ain't rocket science. ;)
June 18th, 2007 at 1:43 amIt ain’t rocket science. ;)
Comment by upright left
You believe in science? I'm whelmed....
June 18th, 2007 at 1:49 amYou believe in science? I’m whelmed….
Comment by Zooey — June 18, 2007 @ 1:49 am
Now zooey, why wouldn't I believe in the study of God's creation? ;)
June 18th, 2007 at 1:54 amYou believe in science? I’m whelmed….
Comment by Zooey — June 18, 2007 @ 1:49 am
Now zooey, why wouldn’t I believe in the study of God’s creation? ;)
Comment by upright left
She said SCIENCE! : (
June 18th, 2007 at 2:11 amShe said SCIENCE! : (
Comment by shane
upright left hasn't worked out that you're not supposed to "believe" in science. :-D
June 18th, 2007 at 2:29 amI think Michael Moore will have more room to be fair and balanced when the the U.S. health care industry treats its “customers†with fairness and balance.
You don't get it - we're not the "customers", we're the end-users, and we don't count.
June 18th, 2007 at 7:52 amUm... should they first stop bracing for reforms in gun control, cosy relationships with the Saudis and overturn of the Patriot act ?
We're all familiar with Michael Moore's films. Let's try to keep in mind the track record of his audiences too.
June 18th, 2007 at 8:11 amAvedon is correct we are the end user. Single payer makes for a free market in which the corporations will have to respond to the end user. Presently for the most part employers pay for the plans and their concern is with cost not services. Socialized health care will not remedy this problem.
Concerning socialized health care the devil is in the details. Many in this country, from liberal and conservative perspectives, object to having to pay for services which they consider immoral or unnecessary. Politicians and the government having this authority will make the political situation in his country that much more complex and divisive. When choosing an elected official there are allready so many complex issues that often, as you all know, we are voting for the lessor of evils.
A single payer system grants more power and freedom to the people who can choose a provider according to their conscience as well as their wallet. Freedom of choice is a "progressive" value is it not?
June 18th, 2007 at 9:06 am.
As someone who works in the Health care industry they should be scared. There is a lot of people getting abused by the system. Now it will be the people to force universal health care for all and stop the profiting off the sick and dying. Moore title is very appropriate because the sickos (profiteers) is taking care of the sick. Americans would be very shocked to find out how many deaths are attributed to poor medical care. And then families are hounded for payment. SICKO
June 18th, 2007 at 9:29 amupright left hasn’t worked out that you’re not supposed to “believe†in science. :-D
Comment by Zooey — June 18, 2007 @ 2:29 am
Well, ya see, zooey, some of us don't care what we are "supposed" to believe. We just believe what is right. ;)
June 18th, 2007 at 9:31 amKaren:...Your kotex is showing.
June 18th, 2007 at 9:39 amMedicare costs $10k per year per person.
‘Universal’ healthcare is the path to bankruptcy.
Comment by m12 — June 17, 2007 @ 11:28 pm
Using your ##s we can calculate the maximum amount that healthcare could cost in one year if everyone in the nation was to be sick at the same time.
300,000,000 people
* times 10,000 =
$3,000,000,000,000.00
3 Trillion Smackers are substantial however we must be realistic. I have been to the hospital in my 41 year life 3 times. As a child I had a tonsillectomy and that was in fact against my wishes. The other 2 times were for stitches. So, 38 years my 10K slice of the pie would have been available in a system based on 3 trillion to the tune of $380,000.00. I went to private doctors numerous times for infections, colds and assorted aliments. Back in the day a doctor visit cost me $20.00 cash no insurance. Today that ## could be over $200.00. Regardless I will guestimate that over the years doctors visits have cost me at most $5,000.00 since those visits were infrequent. So let me just adjust down to $379,000.00.
Surely the average American’s health would be similar to mine and the average person would have experienced a similar experience. So in 41 years there would be a surplus of $113,700,000,000,000.00 based on a hypothetical $3 trillion system.
The current national debt is $8,839,949,630,208.04 and rising. Heck with a 41 year health overpayment we could buy down the national debt many times over! The basic point is that the quality of the lives of the poorest in the land would be improved dramatically and the quality of the lives of the wealthy will be improved as well. Doctors and Lawyers and Politicians would not be able to run rip shod over the citizens and doctors could be given bonuses for improving patient health.
30 something years of insurance later and the system is that of a corporate plutocracy that you seem to be part of. If you want to spread FUD why don’t you blame the $8,839,949,630,208.04 of debt on the nation’s poor? I’m not even going to get into party here your numbers are FUD and you are on the side of corporations. Your 10K ## is likely to be too high at any rate. On a technical point it would make more sense to take care of each other in the long run but your point here is to spread FUD at a nickel per post paid by some anti social group like the KKK.
June 18th, 2007 at 10:32 amUpright left said:
We just believe what is right. ;)
I believe that universal health care for all is the only moral way to go in an industrialized, sophisticated country. (I like facts with my science, too.)
freedomrings said:
30 something years of insurance later and the system is that of a corporate plutocracy that you seem to be part of. If you want to spread FUD why don’t you blame the $8,839,949,630,208.04 of debt on the nation’s poor?
I'm no economist, but I think you are looking at an over-the-top scenario there, freedomrings.
What about all the money being spent on private policies (which don't cover everything, in fact, it's in the interest of the insurance company NOT to pay for treatment if possible)? What about all the money being paid for by companies for health care coverage for employees?
I just think that introducing a national scheme, and cutting out the insurance companies completely (and the vast profits they make), would cost less per person for health care in the long run.
Regards.
June 18th, 2007 at 11:03 amfreedomrings said:
The basic point is that the quality of the lives of the poorest in the land would be improved dramatically and the quality of the lives of the wealthy will be improved as well. Doctors and Lawyers and Politicians would not be able to run rip shod over the citizens and doctors could be given bonuses for improving patient health.
I meant to add, then hit post before doing so - freedomrings, I agree with you. My bad. Sorry.
Regards.
June 18th, 2007 at 11:10 amI’m no economist, but I think you are looking at an over-the-top scenario there, freedomrings.
What about all the money being spent on private policies (which don’t cover everything, in fact, it’s in the interest of the insurance company NOT to pay for treatment if possible)? What about all the money being paid for by companies for health care coverage for employees?
I just think that introducing a national scheme, and cutting out the insurance companies completely (and the vast profits they make), would cost less per person for health care in the long run.
Regards.
Comment by Covalent Bonder — June 18, 2007 @ 11:03 am
Well the point of my post was to show that m12’s $10K is FUD. Pure and simple socialized medicine would only be resented by those profiting off of the current system.
Rather than listing those the point is that we are living in a system called a “Corporate Plutocracy†and what that is, is essentially class warfare. The rich are getting super rich by bleeding the poor. They can take your house if you don’t pay them. It isn’t only medical care that we are talking about. The stress of living in the USA is savage and in the end counterproductive.
M12 wanted to suggest that socialized medicine is impossible while it is a fact that England is a democratic nation and has socialized medicine and has not gone bankrupt and there medical system has been in place for almost 80 years. We would only need to copy their system. My point is that m12 is spreading FUD for a nickel per post!
June 18th, 2007 at 11:20 am"Michael Moore has no intention of acting like Fox News."
June 18th, 2007 at 11:23 amM12 wanted to suggest that socialized medicine is impossible while it is a fact that England is a democratic nation and has socialized medicine and has not gone bankrupt and there medical system has been in place for almost 80 years. We would only need to copy their system. My point is that m12 is spreading FUD for a nickel per post!
My apologies for misunderstanding your point, freedomrings! I should always ensure I have my caffeine before reading anything!
Regards.
June 18th, 2007 at 11:48 amNorman
June 18th, 2007 at 1:35 pmI too, used to work in the health care industry as a respiratory therapist.... TP could do an all day blog on the stories and scandals from health care providers and patients....
As an RT I primarily worked in intensive care with patients on ventilators. On a slow day,the ICU would literally close down, all nurses sent to other wards to work or maybe sent home without pay and patients would be transferred to the wards. But one thing could keep the ICU open - a patient on a ventilator. My favorite job, can be a lengthy job and I was good at it, was getting these patient off this machine. Every day the patient is on mechanical ventilation - the harder it is to get these people off the machine. How many times on a slow day in the ICU, with that one patient on the ventilator, a patient with no visitors to complain, did I get resistance from the physicians/nurses to begin the process of removing the ventilator?
We also had a 90% tax rate on the wealthy. Are you ready for a RETURN to those days - C*NT?
If the money is going to defense spending? Absolutely.
June 18th, 2007 at 1:40 pmI was *happy* to CORRECT you on this figure - IDIOT! You still missed the MOST IMPORTANT FACT that 7% of medicare makes up OVER HALF of the costs. A result of the cost of treating TERMINAL and VERY ILL ELDERLY! You HEARTLESS ST*PID LITTLE C*NT!
Maybe then we should cut that 7% out for the benefit of the other 93%.
June 18th, 2007 at 1:41 pm#99
Malpractice is hardly a scam. Just ask John Edwards, who made millions off the medical malpractice establishment.
June 18th, 2007 at 1:43 pm30 something years of insurance later and the system is that of a corporate plutocracy that you seem to be part of. If you want to spread FUD why don’t you blame the $8,839,949,630,208.04 of debt on the nation’s poor? I’m not even going to get into party here your numbers are FUD and you are on the side of corporations. Your 10K ## is likely to be too high at any rate. On a technical point it would make more sense to take care of each other in the long run but your point here is to spread FUD at a nickel per post paid by some anti social group like the KKK.
The numbers are completely accurate. Google the Medicare trustees report yourself.
The people receiving Medicare are lucky enough to be able to leech off the rest of us. Unfortunately for you lefties, we can't all leech off Bill Gates.
June 18th, 2007 at 1:47 pmAnother story:
At my hospital we had a wonderful pulmonologist Dr. Jim. Patients loved him and he respected the rule avoid at all means of putting end stage respiratory patients on ventilators as many times they can not be removed. A new pulmonologist, Dr. Bill, a real jerk, came on board and also started taking patients at this hospital. All of a sudden business picked up as all his patients, if they cored were put on ventilators. Then one day, Dr. Jim, who had been there for many years, was silently replaced by Dr. Jim. I am sure it was because of all the wonderful business and cash flow Dr. Jim created.
June 18th, 2007 at 1:52 pmFor profit health care is scandalous.
#118
It's the people who use healthcare and don't pay for it who are abusing the system.
Giving every American the best healthcare possible is about as sensible as giving every American a Ferrari to drive on the highway.
June 18th, 2007 at 2:02 pmIt is amazing how certain conservatives flat out reject darwinist thought as it pertains to our evolution for their "religious beliefs," but grasp onto it to dear life when it comes to social class issues and money (not very religious behavior!).
if the poor can't afford health care too bad. Those of us who can afford it, well we'll just get along without them seems to be their motto.
Of course there's also the red/socialist/communist fear theories(didn't liberal democracy win over communism?).
June 18th, 2007 at 2:03 pmm12 Why is it that other country's would not trade their system for ours? Their system works fine as they do do not pour money into this that goes to pay the neocon buddies.
18,000 tax payers a year die because of no access to health care. Tax payers - the working class - those paying into that defense hole. Why can't they receive the same care as the elderly and disabled their tax money also helps to support?
If all had medicare, the % rate for those raising the expenses would drop dramatically. You state an average of 10K in needed per patient. That may or may not be true, but for sure if millions came into the system, the working class, that number is sure to drop.
June 18th, 2007 at 2:22 pmIt is an impossible debt system out to get the middle class as there is no safety net for those strapped with the outrageous medical debt that can so quickly add up. As it stands, we are all at risk for one health problem away from being homeless. More property and money for the very rich - right?
m12
June 18th, 2007 at 2:25 pmthis= http://www.truemajority.com/csba/priorities.php
that defense hole, taking 50% of our tax money to pay what?
We spend very little on defense, compared to our historical average.
Many of those 18000 chumps don't pay income taxes at all, or pay very little in income taxes. Considering they leech much more than that back in Medicaid, I'd hardly refer to them as working "taxpayers"!
June 18th, 2007 at 2:28 pm#135
To pay for the maintainence of an army and a navy, as mandated by the Constitution, and the destruction of radical Islam.
$646 billion is pocket change for the defense of our nation.
June 18th, 2007 at 2:32 pmComment by m12 — June 18, 2007 @ 1:47 pm
Apparently you cannot read. You support a Corporate Plutocracy and since that is now a matter of fact by your posts I am safe in calling you a traitor to the citizens of the United States and to its Constitution!
m12 is a brown shirt earning one nickel per post and all of it FUD, lies and fictitious BS. M12 is a fascist group thinker to the core, attempting to derail the will of the people during their struggle to regain their freedom.
June 18th, 2007 at 2:34 pm#138
And here we have idiot namecalling liberal zealot #1, who would rather put plugs in his ear than listen to the march of freedom.
June 18th, 2007 at 2:39 pmI will just repost this one...
Well the point of my post was to show that m12’s $10K is FUD. Pure and simple socialized medicine would only be resented by those profiting off of the current system.
Rather than listing those the point is that we are living in a system called a “Corporate Plutocracy†and what that is, is essentially class warfare. The rich are getting super rich by bleeding the poor. They can take your house if you don’t pay them. It isn’t only medical care that we are talking about. The stress of living in the USA is savage and in the end counterproductive.
M12 wanted to suggest that socialized medicine is impossible while it is a fact that England is a democratic nation and has socialized medicine and has not gone bankrupt and there medical system has been in place for almost 80 years. We would only need to copy their system. My point is that m12 is spreading FUD for a nickel per post!
Did you catch that m12 about who exactly resent a change to the will of the people: Blood sucking lawyers, politicians (blood sucking lawyers), insurance companies (blood sucking bankers), greedy doctors and you. I'm sure Bush, Regan and Nixon fit in there too!
June 18th, 2007 at 2:44 pmAnd here we have idiot namecalling(SIC) liberal zealot #1, who would rather put plugs in his ear than listen to the march of freedom.
Comment by m12 — June 18, 2007 @ 2:39 pm
Is that the best you can do, along with being a brown shirt? You are a brown shirted fascist and @ a nickel per post you spread FUD liberally across the inter web! That isn’t name calling, instead it is an accurate description of you and your mission here!
June 18th, 2007 at 2:51 pmDid you catch that m12 about who exactly resent a change to the will of the people: Blood sucking lawyers, politicians (blood sucking lawyers), insurance companies (blood sucking bankers), greedy doctors and you. I’m sure Bush, Reagan and Nixon fit in there too!
The 3 greatest leaders of my lifetime: Proud company to be in.
The march of freedom that defeated the Communists will not stand by as liberals attempt to destroy our economy and our nation from within, creating havoc, increasing unemployment, and driving incomes down.
June 18th, 2007 at 2:53 pmfreedomrings
right - m12 makes no sense.
June 18th, 2007 at 2:53 pmThe 3 greatest leaders of my lifetime: Proud company to be in.
The march of freedom that defeated the Communists will not stand by as liberals attempt to destroy our economy and our nation from within, creating havoc, increasing unemployment, and driving incomes down.
Comment by m12 — June 18, 2007 @ 2:53 pm
Your heroes are a criminal, another criminal and still another criminal? Birds of a feather die together I mean flock.
June 18th, 2007 at 2:56 pmThe only criminal action would be sacrificing our $13 trillion economy for some lefties' religious beliefs on healthcare.
June 18th, 2007 at 3:00 pm#143
The Medicare/caid budget of $500 billion is what doesn't make any sense.
June 18th, 2007 at 3:03 pmThe only criminal action would be sacrificing our $13 trillion economy for some lefties’ religious beliefs on healthcare.
Comment by m12 — June 18, 2007 @ 3:00 pm
Our $9 Trillion deficit economy you mean based on FIAT money that Nixon bequeathed to us rather than our gold?
June 18th, 2007 at 3:05 pmOur $9 Trillion deficit economy you mean based on FIAT money that Nixon bequeathed to us rather than our gold?
He had to. Your hero Lyndon Johnson did the same with silver, right after he decided to sent our soldiers to Vietnam, then dump the war onto his successor.
Nixon had to finance it.
Our debt/GDP is far smaller than France, Japan, or many other of the socialist healthcare nations that you guys love, and its smaller than during Clinton's first term.
Funny, lefties don't care about any of that.
June 18th, 2007 at 3:13 pmComment by m12 — June 18, 2007 @ 3:03 pm
Well brown shirt nickel per post FUD spreader m12 I’m going to another topic since cross posting with you is unrewarding! Remember to thank Hitler and Gobbles in the next life.
June 18th, 2007 at 3:13 pmm12
with single payer or medicare, money is paid into the system. If this went universal, more would pay into and the average or % of the high monetary health care users would drop significantly.
And to label, as you did, the 18,000 a year who die because of lack of health care are probably the medicaid types is outrageous. Who are you to judge what type a person is? This judging you people do is so classic to the bigoted ways found in narrow minded folks like your self.
Those who are dying, many are the displaced tax payers most likely in their 50's, can not get health insurance because of a pre existing illness and as a result they have an early death. Because of their illness, maybe they can go on SS to receive medicare - but they opt out as they do not want to be a burden.
I have always believed that journeys are experienced to enhance the soul - expect some life lessons.
June 18th, 2007 at 3:54 pm#151
I don't need to judge them. By accepting huge transfer payments through Medicaid, they are judging themselves.
Those people who don't want to be a burden on Medicare are going to be just that exactly on a 'universal' system. Who's going to pay for their healthcare when they can't even afford it themselves?
Never mind your foolish assertion that 'free' 'universal' healthcare would drop the number of high cost users! Everyone is already dumping loads of their earnings into Medicare so a lucky few can leech off it; there's nobody else for the rest of us to leech off. Who's going to pay into it? The poor who don't pay taxes?
$300 billion and Medicare supposedly provides 'bad' coverage for seniors. What a ripoff!
June 18th, 2007 at 4:14 pmComment by had enough — June 18, 2007 @ 3:54 pm
Hi,
June 18th, 2007 at 4:19 pmListen why bother with this m12 brown shirted character? Once he mentioned that his heroes were Nixon, Regan and Bush that should be enough. He is deliberately offensive and openly supports the corporate plutocracy. Over the summer the true majority (that wants Bush impeached) will rise up and realize that as it is 88% of us want these blood suckers out of our buildings. I doubt that m12 and his people will survive mob rules let alone be the voice of the nation. His only bright spot is that the Dictator has not been kicked to the curb yet.
We'll take another country for your sake, had enough.
Canada spent $142 billion on healthcare for 30 million people in 2005, about $4700 per person. So I'll kindly cut the $10k medicare figure in half.
Tell me, are you going to pay $5k per person in your family in taxes for your share of the health program?
June 18th, 2007 at 4:24 pm#153
What corporate plutocracy? The corporate plutocracy that built the atomic bomb, freed Europe from tyranny, obliterated Japan, rebuilt Japan, and overcame the Soviet Union? The corporate plutocracy that has resulted in a lifestyle of comfort, where even the poorest enjoy much larger homes, faster cars, and entertaining lifestyle compared to the socialists in Europe?
Or the corporate plutocracy that has made America the world's greatest economy; one where millions strive to enter?
June 18th, 2007 at 4:27 pmTell me, are you going to pay $5k per person in your family in taxes for your share of the health program?
Comment by m12 — June 18, 2007 @ 4:24 pm
Funny my property taxes are over $10K and for that we get even less. This I'm sure has something to do with the Brown Shirts like m12
June 18th, 2007 at 4:27 pmI see no other country going bankrupt because they morally provide health care to
June 18th, 2007 at 4:30 pmALL their citizens. And EVERY industrialized country, except ours of course, manages to do this. The majority of our population want accessible health care for all. It will happen.
The very few of you fighting this, I can just imagine what your motive is. Maybe you enjoy watching the middle class shrink, have monetary interest in the system the way it is now, afraid your care may be affected, are a physician motivated by greed not the desire to help others,....
It is WE the people and the majority will vote this in - so get used to it.
have monetary interest in the system the way it is now
Comment by had enough — June 18, 2007 @ 4:30 pm
So you think like me he has stock in the health insurance companies and probably works for one in the disinformation department next to collections.
June 18th, 2007 at 4:35 pmprobably...
It is very sad some put their monetary goods before human life.
Where's the humanity????
June 18th, 2007 at 4:43 pmprobably…
It is very sad some put their monetary goods before human life.
Where’s the humanity????
Comment by had enough — June 18, 2007 @ 4:43 pm
These are the 22% of the “base†that are outnumbered by 3:1 who intend to cull the world of the other 78%. It is impossible for them to even bleed since they are heartless!
June 18th, 2007 at 5:30 pmFunny my property taxes are over $10K and for that we get even less. This I’m sure has something to do with the Brown Shirts like m12
Your property taxes pay for schools and the teachers union. It doesn't cover healthcare.
Even if we accept that, $10k covers only 2 people though...I take it you don't have any kids?
June 18th, 2007 at 5:35 pmSo you think like me he has stock in the health insurance companies and probably works for one in the disinformation department next to collections.
I have plenty of it, yeah. But both of you failed to answer my question:
Who's going to pay your $5k (and rising) per person per family?
June 18th, 2007 at 5:38 pmThe majority of our population want accessible health care for all.
They can have accessible health care. When prescription drugs cost $800 million to bring to market, medical schooling costs $50k per year, and malpractice lawsuits hit for $1 million, what they cannot have, however, is free health care.
June 18th, 2007 at 5:39 pmYawn another movie from Bloated Roadkill
June 18th, 2007 at 9:30 pmit sure is nice that Bill and Hillary have divested themselves of Big Drug , Oil , and Walmart Stock this Week we would'nt to call them hypocrites would we ? well I do : P
June 18th, 2007 at 9:33 pmGod I Love this Website
June 18th, 2007 at 9:34 pmHey did you Guys Here that Bill was going to Campaign For Hillary ? Maybe if she is Elected she will be able to surpass Her Husbands Record of 7 Terrorist attacks on this Country in 8 years . You Guys Keep our Fingers Crossed . )
June 18th, 2007 at 9:37 pmMichael Moore's movie Sicko asks the American people to examine beliefs about ourselves and the corporations who are shaping our lives; health care and financial institutions - being two of the most inhumane.
June 24th, 2007 at 6:06 pmMy experience has led me to believe that most corporations view the American people as nothing more than a herd of cattle from which they can garner as much profit as possible - the fences that contain us are the brain washing tools promoted by the news media and our own fears.
Our government should be promoting the welfare of the people - not business. Also, don't corporations understand that their success is directly correlated with the well being of the people they supposedly serve.
The fact that we, the American people, participate in this earns us the contempt we experience from the unethical and inhumane treatment of institutions that hold the very quality of our lives in their hands.
I am for one "sickened" and angry. When is our complacency going to end.
And isn't it strange to sit here and feel afraid to acknowledge my full name in the land of the free.
kiris