Skelton And Conyers Introduce Major New Habeas Reform Legislation
Skelton And Conyers Introduce Major New Habeas Reform Legislation
Last month, the House Armed Services Committee “dealt a blow to the human-rights community” by failing to include a provision restoring habeas corpus rights in the 2008 defense authorization bill. At the time, Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) said the House would address habeas reform in a stand-alone bill.
Today, House chairmen Ike Skelton (D-MS) of the Armed Services Committee and John Conyers (D-MI) of the Judiciary Committee announced legislation that would finally restore habeas corpus rights to U.S. detainees being imprisoned indefinitely without trial. The Senate Judiciary Committee passed habeas legislation earlier this month.
In a statement, Skelton said the legislation takes aim at the “seriously flawed” provision in the Military Commissions Act that stripped detainees of their habeas rights. The support of Skelton, considered a leading moderate in the House, suggests the bill will have broad-based support. Conyers added:
Habeas Corpus is one of the fundamental touchstones of our constitutional democracy. We cannot preach freedom abroad if we are not willing to give prisoners the ability to establish their innocence; and, we cannot advance the cause of fighting terrorism at home if our government takes constitutionally dubious short cuts.
The announcement from Skelton and Conyers comes just days after the D.C. Circuit Court ended two months of delay and put into effect its decision that Guantanamo Bay detainees “have lost all rights to pursue habeas challenges to their prolonged imprisonment.”
Read the full Skelton/Conyers statement:
SKELTON/CONYERS Introduce Habeas Reform Legislation
Washington, DC - House Armed Services Committee Chairman Ike Skelton (D-MO) and House Judiciary Committee Chairman John Conyers (D-MI) introduced legislation today which would uphold the principle of habeas corpus by amending existing law to allow individuals detained, often for many years without formal charges, to have their day in court.
“Last year when Congress passed the Military Commissions Act, I argued that the bill was seriously flawed by provisions which unconstitutionally stripped the federal courts of jurisdiction over habeas cases,” Skelton said. “Today, Chairman Conyers and I have introduced legislation to undo this mistake, and I am pleased to be joined by so many other members in advancing this important change.”
“Habeas Corpus is one of the fundamental touchstones of our constitutional democracy,” Conyers said. “We cannot preach freedom abroad if we are not willing to give prisoners the ability to establish their innocence; and, we cannot advance the cause of fighting terrorism at home if our government takes constitutionally dubious short cuts.”
“The last thing that we want is to convict an individual for terrorism and then have that conviction overturned because of fatal flaws in the Military Commissions law passed in the previous Congress. Military judges have already dismissed charges against two suspected terrorists because of deficiencies in the legal framework hurriedly adopted last year. Amending the habeas provisions of the Military Commissions Act will significantly improve this law and help us stay true to our nation’s values,” said Skelton.
H.R.2826 accomplishes two main goals. It upholds the principle of habeas corpus as applied to detainees, allowing them to challenge their indefinite detention without trial. Detainees who are being detained in active combat zones, such as Iraq and Afghanistan, will continue to not be allowed to file habeas petitions. The bill also permits habeas courts to review the actions of a Military Commission established under the Military Commissions Act.
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Yes. Release the terrorists in the camp if you must, but not in my neighbourhood. How about Pelosi's or Reid's neighbourhood?
June 22nd, 2007 at 12:56 pmMAF54 = A terrible American that thinks the rule of law shouldn't matter!!
June 22nd, 2007 at 12:58 pmHabeas Corpus is one of the fundamental touchstones of our constitutional democracy. We cannot preach freedom abroad if we are not willing to give prisoners the ability to establish their innocence; and, we cannot advance the cause of fighting terrorism at home if our government takes constitutionally dubious short cuts.
AMEN!!!
June 22nd, 2007 at 12:59 pm#2: A system of laws is not a suicide pact. After 9/11, many a law and principle had to be reconsidered for our own survival - too bad you're still stuck in the past.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:00 pmThere's nothing in the Constitution that allows the government to restrict Habeas in this way - whether in the US or abroad - foreigners or citizens.
You see, the constitution is written under "positive grant" meaning if a power isn't specifically listed in the constitution, then the federal government can't do it.
period.
Some follow up reading:
"To Whom Does the Bill of Rights Apply?"
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:00 pmhttp://www.populistamerica.com/to_whom_does_the_bill_of_rights_apply
MAF54,
"Yes. Release the terrorists in the camp if you must, but not in my neighbourhood. How about Pelosi’s or Reid’s neighbourhood?"
Strawman!!!
No one wants to release terrorists. But we don't know if they are terrorists if there is no evidence brought to bear. It's nice to know that there are easily led automotons like you that will take the word of this President as gospel truth. You are the type of person which allows tryannical government. "As long as they protect me from the boogeyman, they can break all the laws they want."
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:01 pmThe rule of law is "inoperative" in this administration.
Cheney is not subject to the law because he is not a part of the executive branch. Bush can append a signing statement to any bill that effectively kills it.
Does anyone think that Bush will sign this Habeas reform?
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:02 pmRelease the terrorists in the camp if you must, but not in my neighbourhood. How about Pelosi’s or Reid’s neighbourhood?
Comment by MAF54
Yeah, "your neighborhood" already has to contend with a pedophile. They shouldn't have to also endure terrorists!
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:03 pmIt's a good Friday, folks...our constitution remains a living document.
The Party over People can join their other 'Hatead Corpses' and STFU.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:04 pm#5: So, what's the Constitution going to do if the government decides otherwise?
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:04 pmMAF54,
"A system of laws is not a suicide pact. After 9/11, many a law and principle had to be reconsidered for our own survival - too bad you’re still stuck in the past."
I would rather die a free man, then die an oppressed one!!!
My survival isn't as important to me, if it means I must give up my freedoms in order to gain it. This President was the one that said we will not change the way we live our lives in this country due to terrorism. He said they hate us for our freedom, then he began to whittle away as those freedoms and rights we hold most dear.
I pity you. He who would sacrifice his freedom for security, deserves neither.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:05 pmAbout damned time. Someone in the house should also introduce legislation condemning Lincoln for suspending habeas corpus.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:06 pmIsn't it interesting that this thread's opponent of habeas calls himself MAF54?
Remember when that name last made the news?
And this MAF54 is just as much a perv and a propagandist.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:07 pmMy survival isn’t as important to me, if it means I must give up my freedoms in order to gain it.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:07 pmCommendable, but so unbelievably naive. Victory is the absence of defeat and survival is the ultimate ideology.
Ok MAF54, bend over buddy. It's time for your daily cavity search. I know it's uncomfortable (although you seem to enjoy it, wierd) and some have even said it's a violation of their privacy, but f*ck 'em. We are at war and we can't be too safe.
Once we took that step down the slippery slope of denying prisoners' rights and suspending Habeas Corpus, we slipped and fell to the bottom of the mountain. Not to worry little guy, as soon as we kill the last terrorist we will reinstate the Constitution, along with Habeas Corpus.
Or not. Dick says he likes it just the way it is.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:07 pmMAF54,
"Commendable, but so unbelievably naive."
Luckily the founders were not the coward you are!!! They faced the greatest military the owrld ever knew, and they decide to stand for there inalienable rights anyway. In the face of certain defeat. Were they naive?
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:09 pmSummary paragraph has typo - Skelton is from south west Missouri. Has voted similar to a Mississippi congressman early in the war, but is from MO not MS. Like Murtha, he seems to be coming around.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:10 pm#16: They weren't facing suitcase nukes and suicide bombers. As I said, a system of laws is not a suicide pact - that includes the Constitution, too.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:10 pmFor one, I don’t believe all of them are (or were) terrorist fighters. There is no way to know because they were never charged and are not allowed access to legal counsel.
I don’t believe this is as much about the prisoners held at Guantanamo as much as it is about who we are as a nation and what we stand for. I have always believed that our nation was founded on the rule of law, our morals and principles. We have stood up and fought for the principles of Democracy. We have tried to be an example of a free society to the rest of the world.
We have thrown all that out the window since this Administration came into office and with the actions they have continued to pursue since 9/11. They have taken step after step, so much in absolute secrecy and much of it outside the laws that we stand for. Starting with suspending the great writ of Habeus Corpus. I still can’t believe that one.. This wasn’t to protect US, it was to protect THEM and what they were doing.
This isn’t about “keeping us safer†or “fighting them over there so they won’t come hereâ€. These rogues running this country at the moment have been systematically dismantling our democracy, our constitution, our laws, and destroying everything we have ever stood for that set us apart as a people. They have also been bleeding our treasury.
This ‘prison’ in Guantanamo represents everything that we as a nation do NOT stand for. If these are prisoners of war, then they should be tried and charged. We should stand by the Geneva Conventions for the sake of the protection of our own troops who are the ones in harms way.
I think Guantanamo has a lot to do with the visual. We are at war. Guantanamo represented a ‘POW’ camp with captured ‘terrorists’. It is very visual, that’s for sure. It gave a great visual early on of victories in catching ‘the enemy’. These were the people we needed to be very afraid of. Only thing is, we don’t know how many are true enemies, and how many were just scooped up (and who now undoubtedly ARE our enemies. They certainly have reason to hate us). You are right. We probably can’t afford to let them go now. They would probably join the other new recruits that our illegal war and occupation has fostered. If they were captured for acts of terrorism, then why NOT charge them and try them. I think the American people would get behind that. It seems to me it is much more beneficial to SHOW that we have a prison full of ‘terrorists’.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:12 pm“A system of laws is not a suicide pact. After 9/11, many a law and principle had to be reconsidered for our own survival - too bad you’re still stuck in the past.â€
There is no principle specified in law that is more important than MAF54's presumption of security. We'd never have had an United States to start with if his priorities had won the day back then. Fight the British? Suicide!
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:12 pm"Yes. Release the terrorists in the camp if you must, but not in my neighbourhood. How about Pelosi’s or Reid’s neighbourhood?
Comment by MAF54 — June 22, 2007"
Tell me you're joking, please.
Because I would hate to think that ANY American is THAT much of an idiot.
From what I've seen of the few supporters Monkey Boy Bush has left, it's hard to tell anymore.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:13 pmI would say the right to a speedy trial would pretty much release them all.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:13 pmThey weren’t facing suitcase nukes and suicide bombers. As I said, a system of laws is not a suicide pact - that includes the Constitution, too.
Comment by MAF54
But that's not what YOU said. That's what other wingnuts have been saying, and you're simply parroting their nonsense.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:13 pmThere’s nothing in the Constitution that allows the government to restrict Habeas in this way - whether in the US or abroad - foreigners or citizens.
You see, the constitution is written under “positive grant†meaning if a power isn’t specifically listed in the constitution, then the federal government can’t do it.
period.
This is exactly correct. Specific wording within the Constitution about Habeas is very clear. Laws cannot be passed to do away with Habeas. If Congress wishes (and MAF54 is so scared) they can attempt to follow the procedure to amend the Constitution. So any laws passed or 'executive orders issued' that change the wording of a Constitutional right is moot. Only if WE THE PEOPLE don't complain and just go along with it - then that would be a problem. I am respectfully asking those like MAF54 to please read YOUR Constitution and Bill of Rights. Many, many Americans (and Allies) have fought and died for YOUR rights. Why on earth would you let imbeciles like Bush and Cheney dis-respect those brave soldiers and sailors? Why on earth would you gladly toss your rights away to create the illusion of security? Please read some of Ben Franklins works. His words were written long ago, but the are very relevant today.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:13 pmRamboTroll reports:
“Human rights†is a primary concern for us lefthugs. Back in the states, however, prison rape isn’t much to worry about. Minorities in jail should keep up the pressure.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:14 pm"So, what’s the Constitution going to do if the government decides otherwise?
Comment by MAF54 — June 22, 2007 @ 1:04 pm"
The Constitution is going to do nothing......
It's "We the People" that will be the doing.....
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:14 pmFor one, I don’t believe all of them are (or were) terrorist fighters.
I don't believe that either. Yet, what's the alternative. Run them through the judicial system where they'll get high level lawyers looking for high profile cases to work on (pro bono) for publicity? These vultures, in turn, will pull in the media and probably get some of these monsters released on some technicality. Meanwhile, in the process, intimate details of our interrogation and intelligence gathering techniques are released to the public. There just are no good sides to this.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:15 pm#24: I know the Constitution and I also know that it's antiquated. It will not work in this world where people fly airplanes into buildings and smuggle suitcase nukes to blow up entire cities. Wake up.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:16 pmI would rather die a free man, then die an oppressed one!!!
My survival isn’t as important to me, if it means I must give up my freedoms in order to gain it.
I call bullshiite! If a jihadi were holding a gun to your head and the cops broke in and beat the guy to a pulp before tossing his carcass into a squad, you wouldnt give two craps if Miranda were read to him or not.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:16 pmYou see, the constitution is written under “positive grant†meaning if a power isn’t specifically listed in the constitution, then the federal government can’t do it.
Such as making education requirements? Such as Federal Healthcare?
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:16 pmMAF54,
"They weren’t facing suitcase nukes and suicide bombers. As I said, a system of laws is not a suicide pact - that includes the Constitution, too."
No, they were facing being drawn and quartered one at a time in the King's court for their treason. Facing Annihilation, is facing annihilation, regardless of what the method is.
The only way these losers (terrorists) win, is if we follow your path into the dark side of our nature.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:17 pmMAF54 and his (her?) ilk are contemptible cowards.
I'm sure his/her neighborhood is even now under siege by scary brown people with "suitcase nukes," and maybe even scarier weapons, whose awesome powers are limited only by Trekkie imaginations.
MAF54 needs to stop masturbating to Tom Clancy novels.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:17 pmFortunately, we already have a document that guarantees the right to habeus corpus: it's called the U.S. Constitution.
Bush should look at it sometime instead of just using it to wipe his nose.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:18 pm#30: Personal torture and death doesn't really count when compared to death of cities and existential struggle for the survival of the entire western civilization.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:18 pmThere are no terrorists endangering us, and I look to no Democrat to "restore" my Constitutional rights. A life based on fear is no life at all.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:19 pmYet, what’s the alternative.
Let them make bail and wait for trial ROR, and of course they would show up for their next court date.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:19 pm#31: And you people should wake up and realize that Islam is nothing but an international terrorist organization that's hell-bent on destroying western civilization.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:20 pm#24: I know the Constitution and I also know that it’s antiquated. It will not work in this world where people fly airplanes into buildings and smuggle suitcase nukes to blow up entire cities. Wake up.
That is precisely why it WILL work! As long as we adhere to it's principles. If by their actions we change who we are and what we represent, then yes, they have won.
Here are some very wise words from Dwight Eisenhower:
"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without. "
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:20 pmBy "they" I was referring to the "terrorists".
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:21 pmComment by RamboTroll
Rambotroll - someone who is so pathetic, he tries to relive the past glories of the Reagan era. Why else would he take the name from an '80's movie character, but the fact that his former hero Bush has proved to be so incompetent, and so it's become more emotionally conforting to relive the past?
Wolverines!
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:21 pmIf Bush wants to change our Constitution, then he needs to amend it. Otherwise, he should just put his pee-stained flightsuit back on.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:21 pm"I know the Constitution and I also know that it’s antiquated. It will not work in this world where people fly airplanes into buildings and smuggle suitcase nukes to blow up entire cities. Wake up.
Comment by MAF54 — June 22, 2007 @ 1:16 pm"
There you go, making more assumptions......
Other than the fact that planes hit the WTC, prove that they were flown by these people.....
Prove that there are suitcase nukes going to be blown up in cities.....
This is YOUR fear, getting the best of YOU!!!!!!
GO cower in your basement and leave my Constitution alone!
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:21 pmIf you're too scared to live in a country where the accused are granted due process, please leave.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:21 pmMAF: If you don't like our Constitution, move to another country. Bye-bye.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:22 pm“The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without. “
And letting the entire structure wither and rot from within because we're not ready for a change will destroy us as well.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:23 pm"And you people should wake up and realize that Islam is nothing but an international terrorist organization that’s hell-bent on destroying western civilization."
Comment by MAF54
How funny coming from a pervert. Are you afraid the muslims will make you stop chasing little boys, chickenhawk?
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:23 pm"Personal torture and death doesn’t really count when compared to death of cities and existential struggle for the survival of the entire western civilization.
Comment by MAF54 — June 22, 2007 @ 1:18 pm"
Which YOU have no proof of it going to happen......
That's like the fear 50 years or so about how the Black man was going to take all the white women away from the white man if they allowed inter racial marriages.......
Something that was stated out of fear and IGNORANCE, over science and proof.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:24 pmRep. Skelton is from Missouri (that's MO).
Sincerely-
Steve
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:24 pmPlease correct the designation for Rep. Ike Skelton. He is from Missouri, and the 2-letter designation for that state is MO. I don't imagine that any of the Representatives from Mississippi (MS) would have introduced or co-sponsored this legislation.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:24 pmMAF54 -- why don't you lock yourself up in the closet till the last terrorist is eradicated eh? Republic Party = spineless chickens.
The men and women who fought wars in the past to give us the liberty we enjoy today would laugh at the cowardice displayed by the GOP.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:25 pmRamboTroll responds to 'barfly':
It isn't the past, fruitcake. It's alive and kicking today.
BARF(LY)!
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:25 pm#24: I know the Constitution and I also know that it’s antiquated. It will not work in this world where people fly airplanes into buildings and smuggle suitcase nukes to blow up entire cities. Wake up.
Comment by MAF54
Sir, you are so wrong on this it really makes my head spin. The Constitution has survived (in spite of 'patriots' like yourself) through many, many more dangerous moments (Russion nukes, world wars, depressions, stupid congresscritters, etc...). It will survive as long as WE THE PEOPLE demand that it survive. If you want to 'feel' secure, I suggest you stay in bed and please for the love of God - DO NOT VOTE or PROCREATE! We need fewer souls like you in this country - not more. I'm not trying to be mean to you. I have read many of your posts here at TP. Simply sir, you are scared. So scared that Bush cannot provide protection, you would be willing to throw our country away. Sir, please listen: YOU ARE WRONG.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:26 pm"And you people should wake up and realize that Islam is nothing but an international terrorist organization that’s hell-bent on destroying western civilization.
Comment by MAF54 — June 22, 2007 @ 1:20 pm"
Really????
Christians have KILLED more people in the worlds history than Islam has even thought of killing......
So should we now start scouraging the planet for Christians and locking them up beause of the autrocities they have done over the worlds history????
IDIOT!
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:26 pmFortunately, we already have a document that guarantees the right to habeus corpus: it’s called the U.S. Constitution.
Bush should look at it sometime instead of just using it to wipe his nose.
Agreed. But, here is what Bush thinks about the Constitution (that he swore to uphold and defend):
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:26 pmhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wmc60JmaLbE&mode=related&search=
RamboTroll warns:
'barfly' is a terrorist. I think I will search this one down and collect my $25,000,000 reward.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:27 pmMaf54: a chickenhawk in every sense of the word.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:27 pmYes. Release the terrorists in the camp if you must
Which ones are the terrorists? Are they color-coded?
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:29 pm.
‘barfly’ is a terrorist. I think I will search this one down and collect my $25,000,000 reward.
I'll make it easy for you. I live in El Cajon, Calif, and am the president of my community's HOA. Take your best shot, Scrambles.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:30 pmLet's put the terrorists in Pelosi's district if Guantanemo closes. See how she likes it.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:30 pmAccording to the sniveling coward trolls, we are in a war against Islam. Man, it's going to be a long war!
I don't think these piss-soaked wimps have been rubbin the nubbin to Tom Clancy novels, they all belong to the "Left Behind" book club.
Too bad we have to share our country with these scared little choir boys who are willing to give up liberties to feel a little safer.
28% gaze up to the Chimperor and beg him to keep them safe.
Pathetic little cowards.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:31 pmThe left spends way to much time worrying about what rights terrorists should have. All your doing is forcing our military to execute terrorists on the spot because you force them no other choice. Pretty sad if you ask me. One question, is giving more rights to terrorists making US citizens safer? NOPE.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:31 pmIf you’re too scared to live in a country where the accused are granted due process, please leave.
These aren't citizens of our country. They are mostly Arab scum!
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:33 pm#60. Is denying Constitutionally guaranteed rights undermining the very basis of the United States and our Founding Fathers' vision? YES.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:33 pmMAF54 = A terrible American that thinks the rule of law shouldn’t matter!!
Comment by Crump's Brother — June 22, 2007 @ 12:58 pm
If you see how he/she spelt "neighbourhood" maybe he/she isn't American? But definitely terrible.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:33 pm#56: No they are not. Therefore it's better to keep them all in.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:35 pmOne question, is giving more rights to terrorists making US citizens safer? NOPE.
Comment by Roger_Roger
And we're fighting them over there, so we don't have to over here - except it's been revealed by our security forces that Al-Qaeda has dispatched terrorists to come here. When all you have to fall back on are shopworn bromides, you really have struck rhetorical bottom.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:35 pmAgain, this isn't about the prisoners as much as it is about who we are as a nation and what we stand for. It is about the principles that our nation is founded on and the laws that we adhere to.
I think it takes a lot more character and courage to stand by your principles and what you believe in than to lower your standards and sell your soul in search for "feeling safer". I guarentee you won't feel safer and you will have lost your soul.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:36 pm"The left spends way to much time worrying about what rights terrorists should have. All your doing is forcing our military to execute terrorists on the spot because you force them no other choice. Pretty sad if you ask me. One question, is giving more rights to terrorists making US citizens safer? NOPE.
Comment by Roger_Roger — June 22, 2007 @ 1:31 pm"
HEY IDIOT!!!!
Prove that they are "terrorists"......
Just because someone is arrested, does not mean they are guilty!!!!
Samething with "terrorists", as you call them....
Prove that they intend harm, and that they were not caught up in a wide net being thrown out (You know like that WARRANTLESS WIRETAPPING).
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:36 pmOh God...Here comes m12 and Rogerx2. Break out the deodorizer, cause its gonna get sticky around here. let the madness begin.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:36 pmComment by barfly
Well, one of the 9/11 attackers had a PhD., did he not?
President of HOA. Usual corruption probably going on there, huh? You must love collecting all those excessive dues (aka TAXES).
California is slowly becoming the crappiest state on earth.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:37 pmRoger_Roger,
"The left spends way to much time worrying about what rights terrorists should have."
Strawman. If they are found to be a terrorist, through due process, then they deserve jail time or worse.
"All your doing is forcing our military to execute terrorists on the spot because you force them no other choice. Pretty sad if you ask me. One question, is giving more rights to terrorists making US citizens safer? NOPE."
The policy of detaining without charge or due process, and the condoning of torture by this administration is puttin gour troops at greater risk. Who would want to surreneder to an enemy you know will not treat you humanely? This cause them people to fight harder and to the death. THe reason so many Germans surrendered to us in WWII, was because they knew we would treat them humanely.
Plus, if our military is executing people on the spot that have surrendered to us, those who take part in this, are murderers and should be court martialed.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:38 pm#67
Do they practice Islam? That's a checkmark on the list!
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:38 pmComment by RamboTroll
Really, is that all you've got? Why do you bother wasting keystrokes?
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:39 pm"And you people should wake up and realize that Islam is nothing but an international terrorist organization that’s hell-bent on destroying western civilization.â€
Comment by MAF54
Actually they're hell bent on stopping us from spreading death to their people. If it means destroying Western civilization then so be it (in their eyes). Keep in mind those who stood up to Hitler were also called "terrorists".
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:39 pm"Well, one of the 9/11 attackers had a PhD., did he not?
Comment by RamboTroll — June 22, 2007 @ 1:37 pm"
If you believe the govt. telling you who they were.....
Many of them have come forward and documented that they are in fact alive and well.....
Not to mention that only HOURS after the incident the names and detailed information was released to the news organizations.....
You know... Like the JFK killing..... That Oswald was the killer before JFK was even shot, in the otherside of the world....
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:40 pmWho would want to surreneder to an enemy you know will not treat you humanely? This cause them people to fight harder and to the death.
These people are suicide bombers. They fight to the death anyway.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:41 pmDo they practice Islam? That’s a checkmark on the list!
Comment by m12
Really? I was a practicing christian ...
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:41 pmYou know… Like the JFK killing….. That Oswald was the killer before JFK was even shot, in the otherside of the world….
Yep, Lyndon Johnson did his work well.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:42 pm“Well, one of the 9/11 attackers had a PhD., did he not?
Comment by RamboTroll — June 22, 2007 @ 1:37 pmâ€
If you believe the govt. telling you who they were…..
Comment by RemoveBush — June 22, 2007 @ 1:40 pm
Right RB. you can google a video called "loose change". It'll do more to destroy what you were led to believe happened on 9/11 than anything Michael Moore could ever do.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:42 pmm12,
"Arab scum"
Your racial epithets notwithstanding, we are still bound to international law that we have signed onto.
Plus, we should be trying to maintain the moral high ground right? WE should afford all accused access to some means of defending themselves by way of due process. We need to be better than those who we are fighting.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:43 pmIke Skelton is, of course, from Missouri "MO," and not Mississippi, "MS."
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:43 pmMany of them have come forward and documented that they are in fact alive and well…..
Bwahahahahahahahahaha!
Links and pics?
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:43 pmThese people are suicide bombers. They fight to the death anyway.
Comment by m12
Jim Nicolls didn't. Nor did I.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:44 pm#73: Yes. It's always our fault. Bad America, evil Christians, shameless white people.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:44 pmI like that.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:44 pmJust like Cheney and his staff starting a course of Cipro a week before the attacks with the militarized anthrax that were sent to the Democratic Senators who were the only ones trying to slow down the passage of the Patriot Act on order to have time to read, study, discuss and debate it first.
"Right RB. you can google a video called “loose changeâ€. It’ll do more to destroy what you were led to believe happened on 9/11 than anything Michael Moore could ever do.
Comment by coachjason — June 22, 2007 @ 1:42 pm"
Loose Change is OK, but there are better video's out there to view.......
One I like better is 9/11 Revisited....
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:45 pm"Today, House chairmen Ike Skelton (D-MS) of the Armed Services Committee..."
Hey TP: Can you please change that (D-MS) to (D-MO)? It's just so rare that I can actually be proud of one of our Legislators in Missouri. Thanks.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:45 pm#73: Yes. It’s always our fault. Bad America, evil Christians, shameless white people.
Comment by MAF54
Geez, you're finally waking up.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:46 pm"It’s always our fault. Bad America, evil Christians, shameless white people."
Comment by MAF54
You're making my case for me better than I ever could. Too bad I didn't have you on my defense team...
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:46 pmI liked 9/11 Mysteries. It was really well laid out and backed with facts.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:46 pmMAF54 -
The funny thing that you Wingnuts always seem to forget is that the Constitution establishes the government, not the other way around. WE THE PEOPLE through the state legislatures the states decide how and when it's to be changed, not the federal government, and certainly not via executive fiat. Bush may be Commander in Chief of the military, but he's NOT commander of the American People. You nutters always seem to forget that too.
If it's so vital to eliminate habeas corpus or trample the other Constitutional rights the Bushies and you following flunkies are so fond of stepping on whilst simultaneously trumpeting strawman threats and clarion calls to defend the very liberties you'd eliminate, why not call for amending the Constitution? Change it if you must, but ignoring it or willfully disobeying it is simply breaking the law and a violation of the Constitution that your silly president swore to uphold.
Governments in general and the US government in particular serve at the pleasure of We the People and our Inaliable Rights, not the other way around. Don't forget that, Wingtrash. If you want to live under an authoritarian cult-of-personality dictatorship, my - We The People's - constitutional republic is not for you. My and probably your forefathers fought, bled, and in some cases died for my - and your, unfortunately - birthright, and it's not for you or Bush or any other chickenhawk bloviator to decide which part of that birthright - We The People's Birthright - you will obey and which part you will ignore. The law is the law is the law, and the law is for all, or it can't apply to any. That's the underlying principle here - consent of the governed. By not renouncing your citizenship, your consent is implicit that you will obey the law, as it is for any US citizen who remains a US citizen - even your Dear Leader W. Further, that you and yours would willingly give it or part of it - that precious gift so many have died for and that you and yours claim we're in Iraq to defend (!) proves that you and your ilk are simply not worthy of such a gift. But it's yours anyway, just because you won the birth lottery. Giving up liberty and democracy is exactly the opposite of defending liberty and democracy, and the sooner you idiots realize that, the sooner we as a country can begin to have hope for our collective survival. If we give up our liberty - the fundamental quality and founding feature of our beautiful and enduring Republic - then the Republic is already dead.
But I guarantee you - that's something I think is worth fighting and dying for, and I'd be willing to wager that 72% of Americans - you know, the ones who think he's NOT doing a good job - would agree. Not oil, not influence, not some twisted support of oppressive Zionist pseudo-democracies hiding behind 60-year-old religious intolerance and genocide to justify inhumane and illegal behavior, not stock options or investment dividends, none of these. But mess with America's rights, WE THE PEOPLE's rights, and see what happens.
Ask the Brits.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:47 pmRE85: Haven't seen it, but will surely check it out. Thanks ;-)
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:47 pm#85: Heh. As soon as those videos are backed up by government research and officials, I might take a look at them. Before that, they're nothing but tin-foil hat conspiracy crap.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:48 pm"Bwahahahahahahahahaha!
Links and pics?
Comment by MAF54 — June 22, 2007 @ 1:43 pm"
http://www.welfarestate.com/911/
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:48 pmhttp://www.whatreallyhappened.com/hijackers.html
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/1559151.stm
Oh... and MAF54, those are just a FEW!!!!!
I'll let you find the others, if you are really interrested....
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:49 pm#92: Nothing but a few cases of mistaken identities.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:49 pm#93: Did you read the update to the BBC story (the other two sources cannot be taken seriously):
"The FBI is confident that it has positively identified the nineteen hijackers responsible for the 9/11 terrorist attacks. Also, the 9/11 investigation was thoroughly reviewed by the National Commission on Terrorist Attacks Upon the United States and the House and Senate Joint Inquiry. Neither of these reviews ever raised the issue of doubt about the identity of the nineteen hijackers."
So there.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:50 pm#85: Heh. As soon as those videos are backed up by government research and officials, I might take a look at them. Before that, they’re nothing but tin-foil hat conspiracy crap.
Comment by MAF54 — June 22, 2007 @ 1:48 pm
Hey Captain Underpants: when the government covers something up it's up to the people to figure out the truth. They used government reports, news stories, and other public information to put the pieces together. you can draw your own conclusions from the evidence they give you. But if you want government facts to prove there was no government cover up then you can keep using big oil companies to set the energy policies.
N-I-M-R-O-D!
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:51 pm"I liked 9/11 Mysteries. It was really well laid out and backed with facts.
Comment by JG — June 22, 2007 @ 1:46 pm"
YEP.... That was a goodone too..
Press for Truth is also a GREAT video....
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:51 pm#96: Hahaha. Yeah, well ok. Keep on digging, "truthseekers". In a decade or so, you'll be laughed at just as the JFK conspiracy nuts or the UFO morons.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:54 pm"So there.
Comment by MAF54 — June 22, 2007 @ 1:50 pm"
That's your proof????
The same govt. that REFUSED to investigate 9/11.... The same govt. that REFUSED to take testimony from MANY witnesses..... The same govt. that DISMISSED evidence because it did not FIT it's story????
I see your not an educated man FORREST.......
Sorry, but if you put your trust into the govt to tell you that piss is water then I say you drink it and be happy.... I on the otherhand will notice that the water is yellow and has an odd odor to it and refuse to drink it because..... "if it smells like piss, and looks like piss, it probably is piss".....
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:54 pm#99: Ok. So you distrust the government from the beginning. Do you realize that it completely discredits whatever "evidence" you're going to provide? You're biased.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:56 pm"Hahaha. Yeah, well ok. Keep on digging, “truthseekersâ€. In a decade or so, you’ll be laughed at just as the JFK conspiracy nuts or the UFO morons.
Comment by MAF54 — June 22, 2007 @ 1:54 pm"
So you believe the SINGLE BULLET theory, and the lone gunman theory???
IDIOT, no wonder you believe everything the govt. tells you......
My god if we keep producing people like this, we will de-evolve in a matter of decades rather than centuries....
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:57 pmyou’ll be laughed at just as the JFK conspiracy nuts or the UFO morons.
Comment by MAF54 — June 22, 2007 @ 1:54 pm
"Sit down, shut up, and believe us/ we're the only ones who can tell the truth" said Cheney to MAF54
"ObKb cuz when u sez jump, I sez how high. Besides, I have not the ability or the authority to think for myself" Sez M-F54 to Cheney
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:57 pmRE99: Well said RB! Kudos!
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:58 pmSkelton is from Missouri, not Mississippi.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:58 pmWhy is anyone responding to MAF54 or m12? They are the most piss-soaked of all the piss-soaked trolls, and there is no help for them.
Please ignore the trolls.
June 22nd, 2007 at 1:59 pmterrorist don't fear democrats will come to your rescue
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:00 pm"Ok. So you distrust the government from the beginning. Do you realize that it completely discredits whatever “evidence†you’re going to provide? You’re biased.
Comment by MAF54 — June 22, 2007 @ 1:56 pm"
WRONG!!!!
Your giving me a headache with your IGNORANCE!!!!!!
So if I don't get my "evidence" from the govt. then it does not count or mean ANYTHING????
M-O-R-O-N
I get my evidence from whitnesses and scientists, as well as govt. experts.
You get yours from Bush.....
I look at the data, being that I have 2 degrees I know how to do that, and make my own conclussions......
You, being an OBVIOUS uneducated person simply listen to Bush or Fox for your conclussions....
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:01 pmZooey you like being pissed soaked?
piss-soaked of all the piss-soaked trolls, and there is no help for them
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:01 pmHow can you believe anything this Government says. The Bush Admin. is corrupted. They cover up everything they do. It is time that the people take back their country.
First we need to impeach Cheney, Old Bushies and his Admin and trial them for war crimes
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:01 pmIs your 'neighbourhood' somewhere near the Thames, MAF54? No, methinks you've moved over to this side of the pond (where we spell it 'neighborhood') a la Tony Blankley. I sure hope that you're enjoying our Bush/Cheney suspension of constitutional democracy - and that you're here legally! Ta!
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:01 pmPlease ignore the trolls.
Comment by Zooey — June 22, 2007 @ 1:59 pm
Not a good isea Zooey, a few short months ago I was a troll... But thanks to the vigilance of the good folk here at TP, I have seen the light. I was a full blown Christian Conservative who campaigned for GWB. Worst, and hopefully last, mistake I'll ever make.
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:02 pmKepp preachin to the trolls, they're bound to come around... you can't outrun common sense.
#105 (Zooey): You know they can't resist me.
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:02 pm"Please ignore the trolls.
Comment by Zooey — June 22, 2007 @ 1:59 pm"
Point taken....
I think I'll just ignore them.....
Their lack of thinking ability is beyond words....
Thanks for the sanity check Zooey....
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:03 pm98. #96: Hahaha. Yeah, well ok. Keep on digging, “truthseekersâ€. In a decade or so, you’ll be laughed at just as the JFK conspiracy nuts or the UFO morons.
If you spent any time at all doing your own investigating, reading reports, news articles, books of the research of others (including the 9/11 report), or watched movies that have been made with interviews of experts in their fields and first responders, then you would come to the only conclusion that the only "conspiracy theory" here is the one put out by our own government. There are a lot of reasons for this. It is why they have fought so very hard to block every attempt at an independent or Congressional investigation. This was the greatest crime ever perpetrated against Americans on American soil in the history of our nation and there was never any real investigation. What does that mean?
Yeah, it is much easier to stick your head in a hole in the ground and pretend that of course this Administration would never lie... Why would they?
The truth will come out. It almost always does. It may take a really long time, but it will.
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:03 pmre111: I meant to say "idea" not isea. Fat finger syndrome again...
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:03 pm#114: No. The government is still the final authority on the matter. Otherwise, we'll end up with ridiculous theories by "experts" who're just nuts with diplomas from some non-accredited university.
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:06 pmYou clearly have not read anything. Enough said.
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:07 pmOT....
For anyone looking for good 9/11 truth information visit 911blogger.com
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:07 pmThis "Oh, go see this 9/11-expert on the net" thing is kind of funny. It's just so antithetical to the cold, science based approach you have to evolution for instance. You're willing to believe these crackpots who have absolutely no standing in the scientific community - just like the intelligent design idiots.
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:10 pmNot a good isea Zooey, a few short months ago I was a troll… But thanks to the vigilance of the good folk here at TP, I have seen the light. I was a full blown Christian Conservative who campaigned for GWB. Worst, and hopefully last, mistake I’ll ever make.
Kepp preachin to the trolls, they’re bound to come around… you can’t outrun common sense.
Comment by coachjason
Are you shitting me? What made the difference?
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:11 pmRe116: Fine... keep your head in the sand or up Cheney's a55 whichever you prefer. Hope none of your kids ever contemplates enlisting. And if they do, I hope they aren't forced to re-up, and when they are, I hope you enjoy their sacrifice for lies.
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:12 pmThanks for the sanity check Zooey….
Comment by RemoveBush
I've been where you are, RB, and believe me, it ain't worth it.
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:12 pm#116 : The government is still the final authority on the matter.
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:13 pmThat is about the most naive statement I've ever heard.
Seven Numbers That Prove George Bush Is Destroying America
$50 billion — how much the Oilman’s War was supposed to cost before the invasion of Iraq.
$1.2 trillion — how much the Oilman’s War is now estimated to finally cost.
$10 billion — how much money is unaccounted for in Iraq and post-Katrina.
45 million — how many Americans are living without health insurance.
5 million — how many Americans lost health insurance under George Bush.
$3 trillion — the national debt accrued by George Bush. (There was a $2 trillion surplus when he came into office.)
24% — how much of that debt is owed to foreign countries.
There you have it, folks. The conservatives have saved the country from those free-spending, Big Government liberals. Hallelujah!
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:15 pmAre you shitting me? What made the difference?
Comment by Zooey — June 22, 2007 @ 2:11 pm
Wasn't one thing in particular... My 13 year old son is going thru puberty and has the same baby face that some of the dead soldiers that I see in the paper and on the news. Then on the same reports, I hear there's talk of a 3rd war with Iran. No way am I letting my son die for Bush's bullshit. It was bad enough I had to serve it myself.
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:15 pmBasically a person can only eat so much shit before the taste starts to gag you.
#123: So, you'd rather believe in some nut with a degree from a non-accredited university who just happens to post random stuff on the net (so that you really don't know who/what he/she/it actually is)?
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:16 pm#125: What makes you think your son would have to serve? Everybody's a volunteer.
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:19 pmHey Jeremy. Pop a chill pill.
And by the way, it was "Sieg Heil".
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:19 pm"So, you’d rather believe in some nut with a degree from a non-accredited university who just happens to post random stuff on the net (so that you really don’t know who/what he/she/it actually is)?
Comment by MAF54 — June 22, 2007 @ 2:16 pm"
Like you even know where their information comes from......
YOUR AN IDIOT....
Let me say that again....
YOUR AN IDIOT!!!!
Once more....
Y-O-U-R----A-N----I-D-I-O-T
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:20 pmOops, so I misspelled a little German. Gonna try to refute the points or make a snipe at a spelling error?
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:21 pmComment by coachjason — June 22, 2007 @ 2:15 pm
Sometimes it takes looking into the faces of our children, doesn't it?
Good for you, Jason. Welcome!
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:21 pm#123: So, you’d rather believe in some nut with a degree from a non-accredited university who just happens to post random stuff on the net (so that you really don’t know who/what he/she/it actually is)?
Comment by MAF54
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:22 pmYou do the Strawman so well, don't you.
#125: What makes you think your son would have to serve? Everybody’s a volunteer.
Comment by MAF54 — June 22, 2007 @ 2:19 pm
2 reasons...
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:23 pm1. Today everybody's a volunteer, I cannot guarantee tomorrow.
2. My son is a very proud and America loving individual. I think he may see that his father, grandfather, and great-grandfather we're all in the military and not want to be the one who isn't.
MAF54, so these people are "uneducated", and idiots???
Welcome to Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth!
http://ae911truth.org/
Pilots for 9/11 Truth
http://pilotsfor911truth.org/
Patriots question 911
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:24 pmhttp://www.patriotsquestion911.com/
Sometimes it takes looking into the faces of our children, doesn’t it?
Good for you, Jason. Welcome!
Comment by Zooey — June 22, 2007 @ 2:21 pm
I was at an anti-circumcision rally a couple years ago in D.C. and another "intactivist" was wearing a shirt that read "peace begins with how we treat our children." Truer words have never been spoken by man.
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:25 pmMy son is a Marine. His tours in Iraq began with the first wave. I worry everyday. Yes, he's a volunteer. But, does that mean that GWB can send him to his death because of lies?
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:27 pm#135: Those sites have absolutely no credibility and therefore anyone who appears on those pages has zero credibility, too.
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:27 pmAnd any time you see a web page for "truth", you know you're being screwed.
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:28 pm126. #123: So, you’d rather believe in some nut with a degree from a non-accredited university who just happens to post random stuff on the net (so that you really don’t know who/what he/she/it actually is)?
Comment by MAF54 — June 22, 2007 @ 2:16 pm
When you write this stuff only proves how little you know or understand about any of the facts - and the very real science - behind the conclusions drawn that disproves the government's version of what happened. Do yourself a favor as an American who clearly loves his country. Put your naivete aside and open a book. Watch a DVD. I would be happy to offer suggestions (that finally did it for me).
If after reading and watching you still don't buy it, then at least it might be an entertaining way to pass the time...
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:29 pmYou talk about facts at the same time you refer to sources that are just blatantly ridiculous. Individual scientists, most of whom have a personal agenda and an axe to grind, are working not on the original data collected at the site, but on assumptions and second-hand information. Why the hell should I even bother with that crap?
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:31 pmSkelton And Conyers Introduce Major New Habeas Reform Legislation-
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:32 pmJust wanted to re-state the topic.
You talk about facts at the same time you refer to sources that are just blatantly ridiculous. Individual scientists, most of whom have a personal agenda and an axe to grind, are working not on the original data collected at the site, but on assumptions and second-hand information. Why the hell should I even bother with that crap?
Comment by MAF54 — June 22, 2007 @ 2:31 pm
Soooo government officials have no agenda in covering up what they did? Hey TP can people really be this naive? I hope he's one in a million, not a million like the one.
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:33 pmI was at an anti-circumcision rally a couple years ago in D.C. and another “intactivist†was wearing a shirt that read “peace begins with how we treat our children.†Truer words have never been spoken by man.
Comment by coachjason
Very true.
Circumcision is barbaric. I never thought about it, until the nurse brought me the consent form and showed me pictures of how to care for the "aftermath." I couldn't have that done to my child!
Are you more relaxed these days? :)
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:33 pm"Those sites have absolutely no credibility and therefore anyone who appears on those pages has zero credibility, too.
Comment by MAF54 — June 22, 2007 @ 2:27 pm"
RIGHT!!!
They have more EXPERIENCE in their little pinky nail then you have in your whole body, yet YOU know more than they do..
Once more....
IDIOT!
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:34 pmIt's Ok that the conversation evolves. But usually it happens because of some troll. I don't expect the topic will get back on track. But, just a reminder not to get sucked in by these trolls.
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:34 pm#143: Government people usually have a good reason for an agenda. National security, for instance.
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:34 pmSkelton And Conyers Introduce Major New Habeas Reform Legislation-
Just wanted to re-state the topic.
Comment by leftcoast
Good idea, leftcoast! I'll be interested to see who votes against this legislation.
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:38 pm"You talk about facts at the same time you refer to sources that are just blatantly ridiculous. Individual scientists, most of whom have a personal agenda and an axe to grind, are working not on the original data collected at the site, but on assumptions and second-hand information. Why the hell should I even bother with that crap?
Comment by MAF54 — June 22, 2007 @ 2:31 pm"
Yet YOU believe the govt. sources....
NIST.
FEMA.
These are GOVT. ran organizations... You don't think they are "biased"????
What happened to the "market" theory??? See when the "market" does not fit your model then it is "biased" and corrupt.
Out of those scientists that support the govt. theory, who recieves govt. money for research???? Just immagine if they were to speak out about the truth, POOF there goes their funding......
Now these people DON'T have any connection with the govt. and you claim they have a "vendeta".
MORON!!!
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:39 pmSomeone mention circumcision?
“Well if that’s what monotheism is all about, you can keep it - get away from me with that knife you psycho†- Anonymous witness to Abraham inventing circumcision
“Your new monotheistic God told you do to what?†- Another Anonymous witness to the first circumcision
“Abraham, put the knife down, you’ll be fine, we can probably fix that back up in a jiffy. And I’m sure that whatever it is that’s upsetting you, we can talk it over with the tribal elders, but let’s start by putting the knife down, nice and slow.†- First tribal elder on the scene of the first circumcision.
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:48 pmBruce Campbell on the scene of the first circumcision:
http://www.tvwavs.com/wavs/Army_of_Darkness/-/gotahurt.zip
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:50 pmIke is from Missouri Not Mississippi.
June 22nd, 2007 at 2:58 pmComment by 1Watt — June 22, 2007 @ 2:58 pm
Show me.... sorry couldn't pass that up.
June 22nd, 2007 at 3:00 pmIndividual scientists, most of whom have a personal agenda and an axe to grind, are working not on the original data collected at the site, but on assumptions and second-hand information.
Well, physicist Dr. Steven Jones was the principal investigator for experimental Muon-catalyzed fusion from 1982 to 1991 for the U.S. Department of Energy, Division of Advanced Energy Projects. From 1990 to 1993, Jones researched fusion in condensed matter physics and deuterium, for the U.S. Department of Energy and for the Electric Power Research Institute. Jones specializes in metal-catalyzed fusion, archaeometry and solar energy. He is the physicist who coined the phrase 'cold fusion'.
Is that scientific enough for you?
He was able to recover physical evidence from the WTC site and has tested the metal and found traces of thermite (which is used in controlled demolitions) which supports his hypothesis. He has written an extensive report. What has found and proved is very compelling.
All he is saying is that it proves there should be a thorough independent investigation.
When he started this he didn't have an axe to grind or a personal agenda. He just had a lot of questions when what he saw didn't make any sense with what was being said. Interestingly enough, after his hypothesis became known, President Bush himself made a trip to Utah (8/31/06) and met with Gordon Hinckley, the head of the LDS church. One week later (9/6/06) Professor Jones was placed on administrative leave and his findings in this matter removed from his university website. These facts were reported in US News and World Report - http://www.usnews.com/usnews/news/articles/060911/11conspiracy_2.htm
June 22nd, 2007 at 3:02 pmDr. Jones explains what he found in this video:
June 22nd, 2007 at 3:03 pmSeptember 11th Revisited: Were explosives used?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4194796183168750014
He is the physicist who coined the phrase ‘cold fusion’.
Dear God man! Are you actually citing this man as evidence? You do know that cold fusion was and still is a scientific hoax, just as anti-gravity is.
June 22nd, 2007 at 3:09 pmThis thread is really bringing out the idiots, let's us all see just how sick these bastard repukes really are.
Don't respond to trolls people, Jake and MAF54 post nothing but pure crap just to piss you off with their stupidity.
IGNORE THE TROLLS - Debate good, Trolls suck
June 22nd, 2007 at 3:11 pmHere is his (Dr. Jones) hypothesis in PDF in case you don't wish to watch the video:
June 22nd, 2007 at 3:11 pmhttp://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/200609/WhyIndeedDidtheWorldTradeCenterBuildingsCompletelyCollapse.pdf
#124
Let me add 2 more:
$11 trillion - The estimated cost of Social Security into perpetuity.
June 22nd, 2007 at 3:12 pm$68 trillion - The estimated cost of Medicare into perpetuity.
I really don't understand why legislation is necessary.
The constitution clearly states:
Other legislation cannot legally suspend it and courts must overrule such legislation.
June 22nd, 2007 at 3:12 pmI can't believe that MA54 is using the same arguments against freedom that the Soviets and the Chinese used to enslave their people.
June 22nd, 2007 at 3:16 pmI guess fear of the truth must be a whole lot scarier than fear of the "terrorists"..
June 22nd, 2007 at 3:18 pm"Dear God man! Are you actually citing this man as evidence? You do know that cold fusion was and still is a scientific hoax, just as anti-gravity is.
Comment by MAF54 — June 22, 2007 @ 3:09 pm"
He provides evidence to what he termed as "cold fusion". Though I can't find the document now, but it does indeed exist, he clarified his results and provided the EVIDENCE.
You can call him what ever you want, but he provides evidence through the proper scientific methods......
Oh..... by the way...... Since "gravity" is just a "theory" does that mean that it does not exist???? It has NEVER been classified beyond anything other than a "theory" so I guess that Einstein and Isaac Newton are just a bunch of nut jobs???
IDIOT!
June 22nd, 2007 at 3:25 pmUnless a scientist fabricates data, they don't try to discredit each other, but they will dispute methods and conclusions. If MA54 has any disputes with Steven Jones, he should dispute his methods and conclusions, not try to poison the well.
June 22nd, 2007 at 3:38 pmThis is why the American people are so frustrated with Congress. A stand alone bill to restore habeas corpus is a joke; its nothing but a publicity stunt. Either the bill will be filibustered in the Senate or it will be vetoed by the President.
Habeas restoration needs to be attached to major funding legislation, such as defense authorization or Iraq appropriaton. Then Congressional Democrats need to grow a backbone and refuse to provide a funding bill that doesn't contain the restoration. That's the only way to get it enacted.
Someone also needs to put a muzzle on democrats like Senator Carl Levin -- who was declaring on talk shows that President Bush would get a "clean" bill after he vetoed the initial Iraq appropriation. Its people like him who have neutered Congressional democrats. The message from the start needs to be clear: take this, or take no funding at all.
June 22nd, 2007 at 3:42 pmWould you people please stop responding to MAF54. This is the third thread I have read that has been hijacked by him. If you ignore him, he will go away. Trolls are driving people away form TP because they, and the people who like to play with them, make reading these comments very difficult. Since their purpose is to disrupt and probably they are gleeful when they drive people away, I guess one could say that the trolls have won. So, let's take that victory away from them and stop responding to them.
June 22nd, 2007 at 3:53 pmRight you are Katie, I try and try to explain to people what these particular trolls are up to, but people keep getting sucked into their off topic Trollish posts.
People like MAF54, Jake, M12, Valiant Venus are scum and are only here to cause trouble.
IGNORE THE TROLLS - Debate good, Trolls suck
June 22nd, 2007 at 4:26 pmMAF54 - Question - On the outside chance that georgejr & dick allow us to have a presidentail election in 2008, are you still going to be willing to surrender all your constitutional rights to President Hillary Clinton? Or will you decide that civil liberties trump the government's right to do whatever it wants, then? just askin'....
June 22nd, 2007 at 4:30 pm"Would you people please stop responding to MAF54. This is the third thread I have read that has been hijacked by him. If you ignore him, he will go away."
Can we use the old Jake dodge?
Y'know, that "For the record" schtick?
June 22nd, 2007 at 4:30 pm#168: As I said previously, that scenario is not going to happen. We've got everything set up for 2008.
June 22nd, 2007 at 4:43 pmSorry. Too passionate for my own good sometimes.
June 22nd, 2007 at 5:21 pmSome questions:
1. How could we ever be denied our unalienable rights (like habeas corpus)?
June 22nd, 2007 at 6:02 pm2. Will this legislation pass?
3. Will the president veto it?
4. If it passes and is not vetoed, will it be enforced?
5. What the f%ck use is the Constitution if we lose habeas corpus and our unalienable rights aren't protected?
MAF54 - Question - On the outside chance that georgejr & dick allow us to have a presidentail election in 2008, are you still going to be willing to surrender all your constitutional rights to President Hillary Clinton? Or will you decide that civil liberties trump the government’s right to do whatever it wants, then? just askin’….
Hillary Clinton is already asking me to surrender my salary.
"We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good.""
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:41 pmI really hate getting involved in forum discussions but after reading the comments section and noticing that it all revolves around MAF54 I felt compelled to say something. Firstly, like him or hate him you have to remember that what makes the US great is the fact that we protect people like MAF54, even if they wouldn't do the same for us. MAF54 has every right to his opinion as everyone else, as much as I might disagree with it. What bothers me more than his opinions is the fact that he has essentially hijacked the comments section so that rather than having a ration discussion about the issue a great deal of time has been spent with pointless argument. Just remember that what makes a true patriot is a willingness to defend others right to have their opinion even if you find it reprehensible. Straying from these ideals and fighting over right versus wrong is not constructive. Right or wrong, what matters is that you have an opinion and your to that be protected. So lets all just accept that people have different opinions instead of getting into us vs them and have a constructive conversation.
thank you for reading.
June 23rd, 2007 at 2:22 am“We’re going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good.â€"
Comment by m12 — June 22, 2007 @ 9:41 pm
Oh how familiar .. for liberty, freedom? Just a little God given inherent rights taken here and there from innocent people. It's all for the common good.
June 23rd, 2007 at 2:39 amIf anyone has read the Military Commissions Act, one would be aware of the fact that it does not pertain to citizens of the United States. If there is a citizen of the United States being held at Guantanamo, I would like proof. No one who is a citizen of this country has lost their right of habeas corpis. I suggest that articles like this one link to the actual text of the Military Commissions Act instead of linking to other articles. Give people the opportunity to read or not read the Act themselves.
June 23rd, 2007 at 2:51 amsee http://hotshadow.com/Skelton_And_Conyers.aspx
June 23rd, 2007 at 2:54 amYou're wrong-the Habeus Corpus Act is suspended for not only "terrorists", but any American who happens to come into the view of the government-by being called a suspected enemy combatant.
June 23rd, 2007 at 7:15 amThat is why the rulings from the military judges in Guatanamo were so very important-by calling the government to account for their treatment of detainees, they were essentially telling the government that their "legal" definitions of "enemy combatants" were flawed, and threw out 2 cases; that ruling also put into doubt many of the other detainee cases.
That is why Jose Padilla was transferred to a civil court-he was ruled not an enemy combatant.
q ball -
You might also be interested...according to the Declaration of Independence (heard of it?), rights are not reserved for American citizens. "All men are created equal and endowed by their Creator with certain rights..."
Some of us hold these truths to be self-evident. We're called patriots. (And we are VERY different from people who supports the Orwellian-named "Patriot Act".)
June 23rd, 2007 at 9:58 amwhatchu gonna do when the next terrorists look like you?
June 23rd, 2007 at 10:18 amMAF54: So you distrust the government from the beginning. Do you realize that it completely discredits whatever “evidence†you’re going to provide? You’re biased.
Yes, patriots distrust the government and are biased against it. Perhaps you haven't read the multitude of writings on the subject of "limited government" of the founding fathers, or you'd understand the inherent distrust people do have, and should have, in government. Those who trust it are themselves untrustworthy as agents and defenders of corruption, deception, and power without limits.
Poor little scared bunny rabbit, MAF54. Run to your government for protection for all things dangerous. Give them your power so you can hide from the big bad world.
Guess what? Life is dangerous. Government's job is not to give you a life guarantee. Our very survival is not at stake. Terrorism itself cannot change this country. What it can do is cause the scared little bunny rabbits like you to demand change "for our survival" that the government is only too eager to accept. More power to the government. Less power to the people. And then we have tyranny, and then terrorism has won.
June 23rd, 2007 at 11:42 amThose who give up liberty for security deserve neither .
June 23rd, 2007 at 1:09 pm- Benjamin Franklin
"Those willing to give up a little liberty for a little security deserve neither security nor liberty."
-Benjamin Franklin
MAF54 That means you
June 23rd, 2007 at 1:12 pmThank you to Ike Skelton and supporters who would correct this outrage.
A note to MAF54 and other idiots: There are hundreds of nations in the world you can choose if you do not like our Constitution or the principles of freedom. It's been the law of the land since our founding. Frankly, I can get over warrantless wiretaps if we catch wrongdoers (though I'm not comfortable with it). But violating Habeus Corpus is akin to setting the Bill of Rights on fire and watching it burn. Anyone who would support this, be they congressman or random citizen is nothing but a traitor to the principles of this nation. I urge you to move to Europe where your form of totalitarianism is much more commonly accepted.
June 23rd, 2007 at 2:25 pmRemember that all the "detainees" in Guantanomo and elsewhere are really "alleged" terrorists. Something that has been lost in all the rhetoric is that the detainees HAVE NOT BEEN TRIED IN A COURT OF LAW, be it in the U.S. judicial system or the so-called Military tribunals or commissions.
One of the fundamental facets of the U.S. Judicial system is the right to a trial (a speedy one at that) and the fundamental premise that you are INNOCENT until proven GUILTY.
We have no fisthand knowledge of the guilt or innocence of the detainees. They may all be quilty as charged OR some may not be guilty except being in the wrong place at the wrong time. WE DO NOT KNOW. And that is the rtroubling part of this. It seems the present way thing are set up is that the "detainees" are to be locked up for as long as judicially possible without trial.
Producing a trial in U.S. courts with evidence, sworn testimony and a jury of peers would most likely find a significant portion of detainees not quilty, or, charged with minor crimes in a plea bargain arrangement that would have them freed for time served. Military Tribunals may give the Administration more options to prosecute with less evidence, but the evidence presented and the allegations must be factual. The Military courts have thrown ot the first cases as there was no definition of an allegeded "unlawful" combatent. A minor point so some would say, but you cannot prosecuted someone under a definition of a crime that does not exist!!.
The end game for this, in my opinion, is to hold the detaineed as "alleged terrorists" for purposes of propaganda and to give the American Public a sense of "we are doing something" or "we have the terrorists in custody" and failing to acknowledge the fact that they are alleged and not convicted, innocent until they are proven guilty and essentialy tried and convicted by the the administration with the backhand help of the press and Congress who should be outraged over the fast and loose rules the U.S. is takeing with the judicial system and the Constitution.
June 23rd, 2007 at 3:12 pmYou know, there IS a place that is the most secure and safest place in the entire world. There is no terrorism, there is little or no crime, and the people live in an orderly society. There are police available 24/7 and muslim extremists have absolutely no chance of ever starting a terrorist group there nor can even set foot in the country.
I think, for those republicans who are obsessed with safety and security, they can easily retire to that nation and be guaranteed to never ever get attacked by muslim terrorists.
That nation. NORTH KOREA.
Bon Voyage, Republicans! Don't forget to write.
June 24th, 2007 at 11:31 pm