Health Insurance Industry, Big Pharmaceuticals Launch Michael Moore Smear Campaign
Health Insurance Industry, Big Pharmaceuticals Launch Michael Moore Smear Campaign
In his new movie SiCKO, documentary filmmaker Michael Moore exposes the deplorable practices of the major health insurance and pharmaceutical companies in working to deny coverage to individuals who are insured. As Moore told ABC’s Nightline:
There’s no getting around the fact that people are dying in this country as a result of the decisions that get made by these health insurance companies. People are dying in this country because they can’t afford the pharmaceuticals because of the price gauging that takes place.
For his damaging exposé of the health care industry, Moore is now under attack from front groups supported and funded by the insurance and pharmaceutical industries. The New York Sun reports:
The pharmaceutical industry and think tanks it backs financially are readying a multifaceted counteroffensive against Michael Moore’s film about the health care industry. [...]
The drug companies and their allies have been on their toes ever since the movie was being filmed, when they warned personnel to watch out for film crews from the “Fahrenheit 9/11″ director. But in advance of the film’s release, they are upping the volume and the tempo of their activities.
Armed with the plenty of cash from the health care industry, these organizations are lobbing personal insults against Moore and propagating the message of those invested in maintaining the status quo. Some examples:
FreedomWorks: FreedomWorks has launched a new campaign claiming that policies favored by Moore, “healthy individuals” would “wind up subsidizing people like Moore, who are overweight and and/or live decidedly unhealthy lifestyles by frequenting fast-food restaurants, smoke, or use drugs.” FreedomWorks is run by former House Majority Leader Dick Armey, whose PAC has received significant contributions from the health care industry. Several industry members serve on its board of directors. Additionally, it has a deal with Medical Savings Insurance Co. allowing the company’s brokers “sell high-deductible insurance policies and tax-free savings plans at a group discount to buyers who join the conservative political organization.”
CATO Institute: CATO receives funding from multiple insurance and pharmaceutical companies, including Amerisure Insurance, Pfizer, and Merck. It has written numerous pieces attacking Moore’s film, arguing that he “ignores the positive side of American health care” and instead “focuses on life expectancy.” It held an event after the DC premiere of the film, screening conservative films that “highlight problems” with “government-run health care.”
Manhattan Institute: The Manhattan Institute receives funding from multiple pharmaceutical giants such as Bristol-Myers Squibb. One of its senior fellows started a site called Free Market Cure, which argues SiCKO is “set to inject a large dose of misinformation and propaganda into our national dialog about health care policy.” The group is advising reporters covering SiCKO that scholars “at the institute’s Center for Medical Progress…were available to comment on the health care industry.”
Other health-care industry front groups — such as the Galen Institute, Pacific Research Institute, and the Heritage Foundation — have recently launched their own attacks on Moore’s film.
For the health insurance and pharmaceutical industries, Michael Moore’s film exposing their history and their misdeeds is a serious threat, and they have no shortage of funds to try to distort it.
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The SS SwiftSmearBoat arriving at Pier #46 in five minutes.
June 22nd, 2007 at 6:59 pmI don't believe that any of this will bother Michael Moore. Actually, I think he will be delighted. The more noise these pharmaceutical people make, the more people will want to see his film. And, as far as personal insults are concerned, Moore has to have an awfully thick skin to have made it as far as he has in his endeavors.
He will look at this campaign as free publicity.
So, smear away folks. It will only come back on you. The American public is on to you smear merchants.
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:01 pmWell, they are allowed to defend themselves. That is what they are doing. What's the big deal?
It's not like anyone was just going to believe whatever Michael Snore said, with no proof but his word.
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:02 pmThe NOISE, is just what would be expected. When someone exposes, all effort is made to debunct, demonize and denigrate.
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:03 pmThis just in from Yahoo:
BOSTON - An ever-present aide to Republican presidential contender Mitt Romney took a leave of absence Friday after he became the subject of investigations in two states for allegedly impersonating a law enforcement officer.
That's not surprising seeing how Mitt is impersonating a presidential contender.
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:04 pmSo, smear away folks. It will only come back on you. The American public is on to you smear merchants.
Comment by katie — June 22, 2007 @ 7:01 pm
Oh, by "smear merchants" you mean like Moore himself, right?
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:04 pmThis movie like "Inconvient Truth" is on my must get around to watching list. I watch so little television though it makes it rough to actually sit down and do it.
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:07 pmSo, smear away folks. It will only come back on you. The American public is on to you smear merchants.
Comment by katie — June 22, 2007 @ 7:01 pm
Oh, by “smear merchants†you mean like Moore himself, right?
Comment by AVGVSTINVS
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:07 pmMoore?? Smear?? What a complete lack of understanding on how we are all manipulated by the powerhouse of healthcare comp. and pharm comp. You think big oil is big? Watch the next 5 years of debate.
What on earth could they possibly say to smear Moore? Anyone who has insurance and has tried to use it already knows. So do those who don't have insurance.
Unless you work for a MEGA MAJOR corporation, your insurance pretty well blows.
Smears may work for the people who have outstanding insurance, but how many of those are there these days?
If you can talk radio this and sell it to the dittoheads either they're stupider than I give them credit for or completely delusional because the conservative audience does not have the money or resources their ditto god has and this has to be obvious even to them. (He definitely has a better prescription plan! (wink)
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:09 pmkatie,
Spoken like a 26 percenter.
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:11 pmHey you're a minority! I'll bet that's a first princess.
Oooops, my bad katie.
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:12 pmThe big insurance companies and Big Pharma SHOULD be scared! Having worked within the healthcare system for years, I know how they work, and I know that they skim the "profits" off of the top of the dollars coming in, followed by the bloated "administrative costs" and whatever is left is used to pay for patient care. The docs and hospitals are getting squeezed while the fatcat management take HUGE salaries, bonus, stock options, expense accounts, etc.
It's all a big scam. Universal healthcare could NOT cost more than this con game.
PEACE
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:12 pmNo, katie probably works for one of those companies.
When I called my insurance carrier one day I was so pissed I asked her how she could work for a company like that. She told me she was proud to work there. That says it all.
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:12 pm???
What did Katie say?
It looked like she was defending Moore to me?
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:14 pmAnd that last comment meant to go to AVGVSTINVS...I picked up the wrong name. My sincere apologies.
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:14 pmWhew you guys had me really confused there for a sec.
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:15 pmYou know the drill:
Moore is not credible because:
1) He's fat
2) He's making money
3) He doesn't support our troops
4) He's overall un-american.
Why even discuss what he says?
Now go back to watching Rupert Murdoch Wellness TV
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:16 pmAnd that last comment meant to go to AVGVSTINVS…I picked up the wrong name. My sincere apologies.
Comment by MsJoanne — June 22, 2007 @ 7:14 pm
No problemo, MsJ.
Your apology is accepted.
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:17 pmAnd it's doubtful that this thread will turn into a left wing/right wing radio because too many people have had the pain of experiencing the wonderful world of healthcare.
Where are the conservatives now? Come out, come out from whatever rock you're hiding under. Can't because you KNOW better?
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:18 pmBig Pharma reminds me of Third World Aid companies. Sure, there are a some Aid companies out there that are really good at getting the money to where it needs to go. But, like Big Pharma, only a small portion of the money coming in gets to where it needs to be.
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:19 pmTP hates American corporations and free enterprise in general. Liberals can't compete so they legislate.
Just some parting words of wisdom for the weekend:
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." -Winston Churchill
"As for me, I am deeply a democrat; this is why I am in no way a socialist. Democracy and socialism cannot go together. You can't have it both ways... socialism is a new form of slavery." -Alexis de Tocqueville, Notes for a Speech on Socialism, 1848.
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:25 pmSocialized medicine = DMV handling your healthcare. I'd much rather work with the greatest healthcare system in the world - bar none- even with it's warts then allow government to intercede. I can see the Postal Service opening up a small branch within their offices like banks in grocery stores.
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:29 pmI love the one where they say you shouldn't pay attention to MM because he's fat.
That's a classic 5th grade level wingnut attack.
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:30 pmI despise big pharmaceutical companies too.......think there is much more promise with natural remedies and preventative care.
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:31 pmHere is how insurance works. I pay every month into my health insurance. The one time I break my toe and need a little boot thing. I had to pay for it out of pocket. THe cost of the boot is less than what I have been paying monthly for going on 8 years now. So, I called and asked exactly what does my health insurance provide and the only thing I could get out of the lady on the phone was that they got me in contact with my primary care provider (which used to be called a doctor).
And from what I gather, I have typical or better than most health insurance.
Very sad.
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:32 pmSocialized medicine = DMV handling your healthcare. I’d much rather work with the greatest healthcare system in the world - bar none- even with it’s warts then allow government to intercede. I can see the Postal Service opening up a small branch within their offices like banks in grocery stores.
Comment by eric — June 22, 2007 @ 7:29 pm
LOL Here is someone that has no idea how other countries deal with health care no does he have a clue about how those other countries citizens think of their system. Greatest healthcare system in the world - bar none! LOLOLOLOLOLOL Get some education my man.
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:33 pmI despise big pharmaceutical companies too…….think there is much more promise with natural remedies and preventative care.
Comment by eric — June 22, 2007 @ 7:31 pm
An excellent reason to make sure the rain forests aren't wiped out.
I agree with the natural remedies. Big pharma is a scam.
They don't want to cure you of anything. That is why they are called Health Maintenence Organization. If you get cured, you stop taking their chemical based drugs. We got more people taking more pills everyday.
What did people do 50 years ago when these drugs didn't exsist. Die 2 years earlier?
What happened to "Well, I guess it was his time to go." or "He is in a better place now." I know I don't want to live to be old enough that I am crapping my pants everyday.
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:36 pmMichael Moore is one of the most funny, brilliant characters I have found regarding US. The first one should be Chomsky.
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:37 pmAgainst all odds.
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:37 pmGood show, Michael.
Keep showing!
Truth before lies.
One thing I have to say in Eric's defense is that we aren't in the other countries that are doing it right. The only thing close to this that they have tried is VA health care. Anyone in that system knows what a true mess it is and has been (All parties).
Before I fully sign on to the Government taking full control I would really like to see them clean that up and get it working properly. It's sort of like if Michael Moore's first film only made $14.32 at the box office, would you ask him to direct a $50 million dollar movie?
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:38 pmI think it's kinda ridiculous that so called "free market" groups are coming out to bash Sicko when the health care industry is far (FAR) from a free market as it stands.
Too late. Already do. And you get ripped off in the process.
Also, companies like Pfizer use the government to get their way all the time. Remember Kelo vs. New London? How can you forget?
Wow, CATO, wow.
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:40 pmAlmost any person who is not a financial powerhouse, has had to deal with craptastic insurance policies in America. It is vile. Letting corporations dictate national health is absurd.
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:41 pmThey can spin the facts however they want, but so many have their own facts in dealing with insurance coverage, and the fact is for those many that if you aren't healthy, you are gonna be f****d at some point, unless you just ignore your ailments (Which could be less painful than dealing with insurance companies in many respects).
I know I don’t want to live to be old enough that I am crapping my pants everyday.
Comment by Spudge_Boy
Hilarious!
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:43 pm"It’s not like anyone was just going to believe whatever GEORGE BUSH said, with no proof but his word."
"Oh, by “smear merchants†you mean like BUSH himself, right?"
Comment by AVGVSTINVS
Corrections in caps for you, whoever you are. You're welcome.
"I love the one where they say you shouldn’t pay attention to MM because he’s fat.
That’s a classic 5th grade level wingnut attack."
Givin them an awful lot of credit aren't you? Seems more like a second graders' handiwork to me!
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:43 pmOnce again, Moore has stirred the pot and got people talking about something really important. The lack of a fair and functional healthcare and prescription medicine program in this country has long been shameful and will soon be a crisis of devastating proportions. National healthcare works in so many other "first world" countries that the lack of it in the U.S. is ludicrous and the fact that our leaders won't seriously deal with it approaches criminality. Without a fair and comprehensive national healthcare program, what is left of the middle class - the people who foot the bill for the rich and the poor - will collapse completely within the next 10 years. Have a great weekend.....
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:44 pmAll I can say, as a Canadian, you guys had better hurry up and get single-payer universal healthcare. I know all about these American lobbyists because they've been playing up the problems in our system for years and urging conservative governments to make cuts whereever and whenever possible. And still our system survives!
I'd like to tell you that, even though the Right moans about the cost up here of universal health care and the higher taxes that pay for them, but we actually pay less per capita than Americans. And, frankly, I don't see what the difference is between an insurance premium and a tax? Why is the former capitalism and the latter socialism?
I live across the street from a registered nurse. She was enticed by an American hospital 10 years ago when North America was suffering a shortage of healthcare workers. She's back because she couldn't stand a system that would evict patients from hospital beds when their insurance ran out. Or where procedures had to be cleared with the HMO first and, if denied, the family had to be brought in to debate the money issue.
That last point I find completely heartless and sadistic. I have a friend whose mother died last year. She was in her 70s and very ill. The doctors said she'd be bedridden for the rest of her life if she didn't have heart surgery. The problem: the doctors only gave her a 20% chance of survival. There was no debate about money, no fight with the HMO, instead, it was up the family to discuss the risk and the quality of life.
BTW, do you know why simple operation cost 5 times more in the USA than in Canada? I mean, where is all that extra money going? And why, if America has all that high tech gadgetry, are Americans so much unhealthier than Canadians and Europeans?
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:44 pmRemember how they said Moore was lying when he said bin Laden helped a bunch of Saudis leave the country quickly after the 9-11 attack.
Judicial Watch got the FBI documents. Turns out Moore was correct.
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:46 pmFor all you people talking about "we can't have socialized medicine" blah blah.
Let me fill you in on something. We have socialized medicine RIGHT NOW. But, a lot of people are simply excluded from this "program" (the highly corrupt program, I might add.)
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:49 pmBin Laden? I think you mean G.W. Bush don't you Jack? I doubt Bin Laden would be able to pull to many strings to get Saudis out of the US.
On a note about Healthcare, we already pay for the uninsured. I read a thing that on average those with insurance spend and extra $1,000 a year on the uninsured. A single payer system, that would allow people to see the doctor when the need to is healthier. Catastrophic care is expensive, but seeing a doctor before it is catastrophic, means less money to pay.
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:50 pmIf they're pulling out the big guns to smear Michael Moore, you know he's onto something big.
Good job, MM.
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:54 pmI don't understand how average people can attack Michael Moore. In every one of his films, he's doing nothing but trying to help common people. It'd be like attacking your brother for trying to help you with your insurance company.
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:56 pmIt speaks volumes that our current healthcare system--easily the worst in the world--was cooked up by Haldemann and Nixon.
June 22nd, 2007 at 7:57 pmHow was graduation today, AVGVSTINVS?
Are you a full fledged junior emperor now?
I remember that song from summer camp.......
Up in the Air,
June 22nd, 2007 at 8:07 pmJunior Emperors...
Up in the Air,
Upside down!
Krazny,
Here is a pdf of documents that Judicial Watch gained through a FOIA request. It is very long, but read page 3.
http://www.judicialwatch.org/archive/2007/Saudi%20Docs%202.pdf
The entire document is highly redacted. Now why in the world would they NOT redact the name of osama bin laden in the document is beyond me.
June 22nd, 2007 at 8:09 pmComment by heyzeus — June 22, 2007 @ 8:07 pm
It wasn't graduation, it was a final exam.
Anyway,
I hate to do this, but I would not be me if I didn't.
Augustinus is the Latin for St. Augustin, the Catholic Church Father, not the Roman Emperor Augustus.
- Augustin of PIPpo
June 22nd, 2007 at 8:15 pmAnd what, pray tell, is St. Augustin famous for, or the patron saint of?
June 22nd, 2007 at 8:20 pm( Sorry, I lost track of them all after a few hundred years or so...)
Augustinus is the Latin for St. Augustin, the Catholic Church Father, not the Roman Emperor Augustus.
- Augustin of PIPpo
Comment by AVGVSTINVS — June 22, 2007 @ 8:15 pm
So we can assume from this that had you been living in Jesus' time, you would have supported the Roman Empire in their quest to silence Jesus?
June 22nd, 2007 at 8:20 pmDo you all remember when the 1400 page give away to HMO's and PHarma. was being voted on.? If my memory is correct the above was subsadized to the toon of 68 million and debated a few day's....The senate adjurned on a Friday with plan's to vote the following Tuesday..It was noted after the vote that Tom Delay went into the bill and added 200 more pages that Friday night and after the vote's were done many representatives finelly admitted they had their aid's quick read the 1600 page's..Best case report was maybe 40 total pages had been read before they all voted...
At the time and even now I am livid with the nightmare they saddled us with..Let me not forget the AARP backed it and didn't realy know the fact's and givaway's either...I had watched the hearing's and looked up all I could find and will say I would not of voted for it...1600 pages of give away's to big businees with our tax money not well spent....Blessings
June 22nd, 2007 at 8:23 pmComment by heyzeus — June 22, 2007 @ 8:20 pm
Well, he was a convert to Xtianity at an early date and he helped start up the Catholic church. But other than that he was a pretty insightful philosopher, that is how I know of him. But you should read what the Drudge fellas said when they impersonated me on the right-wing radio thread:
Well everybody I would like to tell you a little about myself. As you know I am a bleeding heart liberal. I have several active restraining orders against me, mostly for stalking. As I am a typical liberal, (I like to be called progressive) I am 32 years old and still live with my parents. As you can guess I do not have a lot of dates. I drive a 1985 Yugo it gets me around. I spent $4000.00 on the stereo but I cannot turn it on because it blows the rear lift gate off. I got the $4000.00 because a guy backed in to the Yugo; I saw the ad from a sleaze bag attorney and figured Why not, I am lazy work a temp job making minimum wage because I have no goals in life. Sure when Mom and Dad die I’ll get the Double wide trailer. I had sex once, I was 24 she was 15 (hey she looked 17) and I did 5 years. Anyway as you can see I fit the Model of a Progressive. When I got my GED, they said My I.Q. was 77, I check the box Graduate degree on Job apps because I Graduated. Wonder why I never get the jobs? I want to sue for discrimination. I think the world owes me something. Mom and Dad are third generation welfare; they make extra money by faking slip and falls in the local supermarkets. I am a basic loser, I support all liberal causes. I also am one of the people E Harmony said they could not find a match for. So I have to go to family functions to try to pick up girls.
Comment by AVGVSTINVS — June 22, 2007 @ 7:42 pm
My trolling skills work even better on them. It's a blast!
June 22nd, 2007 at 8:25 pmSo we can assume from this that had you been living in Jesus’ time, you would have supported the Roman Empire in their quest to silence Jesus?
Comment by Namtillaku — June 22, 2007 @ 8:20 pm
Nah, I probably would have tried to dupe more people than Jesus into thinking that I was a god.
June 22nd, 2007 at 8:27 pmMoore's film will be successful. Despite all the bombast about "national health insurance", most Americans are dissatisfied with the general state of health care coverage and provision in this country.
Those who have a vested interest in maintaining the current stove-piped, fragmented conglomeration of "profit centers" will beat the anti-government drum; however, that is not the real issue.
A truly excellent health care system must meet three important criteria -- affordability, accessibility and availability. The U.S. "non-system" fails on all three measures for a significant portion of the population.
The answers do not necessarily lie in adopting an English or Canadian system but they certainly do not lie in continuing the dysfunctional situation that we now have where truly no one is accountable for the cost or quality of the services or products they provide.
As a nation, we can do better than this and we deserve to do better. In fact, the burden of the current bloated structure with its competing incentives is being borne by taxpayers and businesses already. It threatens the very health of our companies and our government. Certainly, we can find better ways to structure and finance care while increasing quality and reducing total cost in the process. It may mean that insurers and Big Pharma get squeezed but so be it.
June 22nd, 2007 at 8:30 pmHuh, I guess there must be more than one St. Augustine, the one I know about was a Berber from Algeria, quite the womanizer in his early years, and in general kind of an opportunist and carpet-bagger type of fella.....
June 22nd, 2007 at 8:30 pmmichael moore is awesome! i think if jesus was around, he'd thank michael for being so big on his "care for your fellow man" message, i think for every dollar michael moore makes jesus smiles
June 22nd, 2007 at 8:32 pmHuh, I guess there must be more than one St. Augustine, the one I know about was a Berber from Algeria, quite the womanizer in his early years, and in general kind of an opportunist and carpet-bagger type of fella…..
Comment by heyzeus — June 22, 2007 @ 8:30 pm
No, that is the same guy. Except in the year 300-something it wasn't called Algeria, it was Roman Carthage in Africa. Sometimes his name is spelled with an "e" at the end and sometimes not, but your thinking of me.
- Augustin of PIPpo
June 22nd, 2007 at 8:35 pm"Augustine's mother had followed him to Milan and he allowed her to arrange a society marriage, for which he abandoned his concubine (however he had to wait two years until his fiancée came of age; he promptly took up in the meantime with another woman). It was during this period that he uttered his famous prayer, "Grant me chastity and continence, but not yet" [da mihi castitatem et continentiam, sed noli modo....." (wikipedia)
I this your St.Augustine?
June 22nd, 2007 at 8:36 pmAlso, he did not convert to Christianity at an early age.....
he hadn't converted yet at this stage of his life, anyways.....
if anyone is surprised at the pharma/ins reaction they must have pulled a van winkle. Wake up you bloody dummies.
June 22nd, 2007 at 8:49 pmDoes anyone know how much money is at stake here? I don't have a clue but I would bet that they might just cover the next 10 years of "WAR EXPENSES"!
Now work on that for a while.
More later. This one is the real war. Don't ever forget that as far as they are concerned- we are just ciphers that make them money.
I this your St.Augustine?
Also, he did not convert to Christianity at an early age…..
he hadn’t converted yet at this stage of his life, anyways…..
Comment by heyzeus — June 22, 2007 @ 8:36 pm
Yup, that is the one. He was a bad ass for most of his life, I meant that he was one of the earliest converts of Roman Catholicism and he basically influenced all those other old church guys like Aquinas and the like.
June 22nd, 2007 at 8:49 pmDidn't Einstein say "UNTHINKING RESPECT FOR AUTHORITY IS THE GREATEST ENEMY OF TRUTH"? . . . this does sound like the essence of our country's troubled times . . .
June 22nd, 2007 at 8:56 pmVery interesting info about St Augustine. I was raised Christian, so we didn't have saints really, that you would notice.
June 22nd, 2007 at 8:57 pmavg
if you are idolizing a catholic saint and calling him a bad ass, you need to get out more
June 22nd, 2007 at 8:58 pmI just found it curious that you would adopt a womanizer as a namesake, Mr. P.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:02 pmI just found it curious that you would adopt a womanizer as a namesake, Mr. P.
Comment by heyzeus — June 22, 2007 @ 9:02 pm
It's O.K. 'cause he confessed. No harm, no foul.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:08 pmif you are idolizing a catholic saint and calling him a bad ass, you need to get out more
Comment by k — June 22, 2007 @ 8:58 pm
Why?
Have you not seen the pure light of the Lord?
Guard my life, O Lord, for I am devoted to you; save your servant who trusts in you.
k, are you new here or something?
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:12 pmAVGVSTINVS,
**YAWN**
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:14 pmThere’s no getting around the fact that people are dying in this country as a result of the decisions that get made by these health insurance companies. People are dying in this country because they can’t afford the pharmaceuticals because of the price gauging that takes place.
What an asinine assertion! People are living thanks to the honorable work of the drug companies.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:16 pmComment by Zooey — June 22, 2007 @ 9:14 pm
Hey, you should always know your Church history.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:18 pmWhat an asinine assertion! People are living thanks to the honorable work of the drug companies.
Comment by m12 — June 22, 2007 @ 9:16 pm
You are the only ass here. Support for the immensely profitable pharmaceutical companies, and health insurance companies is a vote against your fellow human being, and for the machine. I expect no less out of you and your fellow authoritarians.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:19 pmHere is how insurance works. I pay every month into my health insurance. The one time I break my toe and need a little boot thing. I had to pay for it out of pocket. THe cost of the boot is less than what I have been paying monthly for going on 8 years now. So, I called and asked exactly what does my health insurance provide and the only thing I could get out of the lady on the phone was that they got me in contact with my primary care provider (which used to be called a doctor).
If everybody got an expensive boot which was more costly than their monthly payments, how would the health insurance company (or a government plan) operate?
You are unlucky to be a source for the leeches. 'Universal' healthcare simply adds more leeches.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:19 pmA new study released this week revealed that Americans' health care varies dramatically from state to state. It should come as no surprise that in general Southern states ranked at the bottom in almost every category. After all, whether the issue is health, education, working conditions, or virtually any indicator of social pathology, things are worst in precisely those states that voted for George W. Bush.
For the details, see:
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:20 pm"Health Care the Latest Red State Failure."
You are the only ass here. Support for the immensely profitable pharmaceutical companies, and health insurance companies is a vote against your fellow human being, and for the machine. I expect no less out of you and your fellow authoritarians.
The drug companies save millions of lives. Supporting them is supporting that effort.
And they are no more profitable than Microsoft, Intel, or anything in the banking industry.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:22 pmHey, you should always know your Church history.
Comment by AVGVSTINVS
Mine was built over an indian cemetery. You can imagine the big mess after they put the mausoleum. Heh.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:22 pmHey, you should always know your Church history.
Comment by AVGVSTINVS
I have no church history.
NO ONE CARES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:22 pmYou are unlucky to be a source for the leeches. ‘Universal’ healthcare simply adds more leeches.
Comment by m12 — June 22, 2007 @ 9:19 pm
Yet again, another anti-human statement. I bet it fills you with glee to see all those brown people in Iraq dying, doesn't it?
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:23 pmCertainly, we can find better ways to structure and finance care while increasing quality and reducing total cost in the process. It may mean that insurers and Big Pharma get squeezed but so be it.
There is. Once the constitutionally mandated patent protection on drugs expire, the US has some of the cheapest generics in the world.
Simply wait until that time.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:23 pmmichelle malkin (lil lulu) already has her youtube censor ready nonsense up.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:26 pmMy trolling skills work even better on them. It’s a blast!
Comment by AVGVSTINVS
Mr. President, PIPpy, AVGVSTINVS what's with the constant name changing. Are you having an identity crisis?
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:26 pmYet again, another anti-human statement. I bet it fills you with glee to see all those brown people in Iraq dying, doesn’t it?
Yet again, another simple personal attack from a foolish liberal.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:27 pmThe drug companies save millions of lives. Supporting them is supporting that effort.
And they are no more profitable than Microsoft, Intel, or anything in the banking industry.
Comment by m12
I totally agree. I think that there shouldn't be any type of socialized protection in the US. It does nothing but stagnate improvement. I mean think how great our fire departments and police would be if they were allowed to make profits for their actions. These groups would only get better than the horrid condition they are in now. Public safety would soon be as good as our public health care is now if they would just be allowed to get rid of that damn "common good for the nation" thing and introduce profit and greed.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:27 pmComment by Juan C — June 22, 2007 @ 9:22 pm
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:30 pmI did not know you were religious Juan.
Are you having an identity crisis?
Comment by shane — June 22, 2007 @ 9:26 pm
No, but my name and e-mail come up "null" frequently lately, maybe it has something to do with the new TP whatever.
AVGVSTINVS came to me when The Joker said that he was Roman Catholic.
Interesting, huh Zooey?
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:30 pmYet again, another simple personal attack from a foolish liberal.
Comment by m12 — June 22, 2007 @ 9:27 pm
Attacking a willing participant who is choosing to further the agenda of the machine is hardly foolish.
You ARE an ass, you spell it out for us with each and every one of your posts.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:31 pmInteresting, huh Zooey?
Comment by PRIMVS INTER PARES
God no......
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:34 pmI totally agree. I think that there shouldn’t be any type of socialized protection in the US. It does nothing but stagnate improvement. I mean think how great our fire departments and police would be if they were allowed to make profits for their actions. These groups would only get better than the horrid condition they are in now. Public safety would soon be as good as our public health care is now if they would just be allowed to get rid of that damn “common good for the nation†thing and introduce profit and greed.
What is this "common good for the nation" nonsense? If you are like SpudgeBoy here, you are going to get bent over by a big tax government plan.
Who is going to be the source for all the leeches who spent hundreds of thousands in healthcare yearly? They don't produce a thing, so it isn't them.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:34 pmAttacking a willing participant who is choosing to further the agenda of the machine is hardly foolish.
Willing participant into what? American drug companies, which have been a forefront of innovation and development worldwide? American drug companies, who are grossly disregarded and mistreated by governments worldwide? Or American drug companies, which donate millions of dollars of their time, efforts, and products to others?
If you don't like them, don't be a participant and stop buying prescription drugs.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:36 pmWho is going to be the source for all the leeches who spent hundreds of thousands in healthcare yearly? They don’t produce a thing, so it isn’t them.
Comment by m12
Limp argument. Injecting your unprovable biased hate for a group of Americans does nothing.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:37 pmYou lefties remind me of a saying: "Don't bite the hands that feed you!"
Why is the doctor or the drug company expected to give his time, energy, and welfare to the patient, while the patient gives meager compensation and lawsuits to the doctor or drug company?
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:38 pmLimp argument. Injecting your unprovable biased hate for a group of Americans does nothing.
Idiotic statement which fails to understand any concept of financing the plan you support.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:39 pmWhat is this “common good for the nation†nonsense?
It's when a society thinks that some services should be provided and paid for by the society for the society as a whole. Ya know like the police, fire departments, early education......and many think healthcare falls into that since a healthy society as a whole lifts the society in production.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:40 pmPlease ignore the asinine, moronic, racist, fascist, nutzoid, piss-soaked trolls.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:41 pmWilling participant into what? American drug companies, which have been a forefront of innovation and development worldwide? American drug companies, who are grossly disregarded and mistreated by governments worldwide? Or American drug companies, which donate millions of dollars of their time, efforts, and products to others?
If you don’t like them, don’t be a participant and stop buying prescription drugs.
Comment by m12 — June 22, 2007 @ 9:36 pm
Ahhh yes, I see it now. We should support the drug companies, because they aren't making enough money. Poor drug companies being mistreated - tsk tsk.
You speak of them like you would a person. No, I'm wrong. People are leeches in your world.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:41 pmComment by Zooey — June 22, 2007 @ 9:41 pm
HEY! I'm not piss soaked!!
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:42 pmAhhh yes, I see it now. We should support the drug companies, because they aren’t making enough money. Poor drug companies being mistreated - tsk tsk.
You speak of them like you would a person. No, I’m wrong. People are leeches in your world.
It costs $800 million to bring a drug to market. Kindly define "enough" money for creating such wonder products.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:43 pmPar for the course for Big Pharmaceutical. I only hope that Moore's next film goes after the corruption of Big Oil.
A corporate fascist wasteland? Yes Cindy, I think we're headed in that direction. Thanks to corporate f*cking a$$holes like Big Oil & Big Pharmaceutical.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:44 pmZooey,
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:45 pmI know. I just haven't been around for a while and wanted to loosen up a little. m12 is funny....and not in haha kinda way.
HEY! I’m not piss soaked!!
Comment by Tundra
You're calling yourself a asinine, moronic, racist, fascist, nutzoid troll these days? :D
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:45 pmIt costs $800 million to bring a drug to market. Kindly define “enough†money for creating such wonder products.
Comment by m12 — June 22, 2007 @ 9:43 pm
No.
Kindly define the meaning of the golden rule.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:46 pmIt costs $800 million to bring a drug to market. Kindly define “enough†money for creating such wonder products.
What is that...a week in Iraq?
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:46 pmIt’s when a society thinks that some services should be provided and paid for by the society for the society as a whole. Ya know like the police, fire departments, early education……and many think healthcare falls into that since a healthy society as a whole lifts the society in production.
Thankfully, healthcare is not funded by the federal government, or it would be about as useful as an inner city school or police department.
Our society holds a $13 trillion GDP. I know you liberals hate the rich, but surely you don't want your 'universal' healthcare to cut that to $3 trillion like those European nations.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:46 pmPlease ignore the asinine, moronic, racist, fascist, nutzoid, piss-soaked trolls.
Comment by Zooey
Absolutely. m12 is way too stupid and/or delusional to understand the issue. There are so many sides to this issue that he doesn't understand or knows nothing about it's laughable. What a tool.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:47 pmYou’re calling yourself a asinine, moronic, racist, fascist, nutzoid troll these days? :D
I strive for truth in advertising :)
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:47 pmSorry,
I did not read thru' the posts.
It's my last read before going to bed.
Anyone else mention that H. Clinton has the second most contributions from the health care system?
Too bad, Hill. I'm a liberal, but this is just another reason why I'll never vote for you.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:47 pmZooey,
I know. I just haven’t been around for a while and wanted to loosen up a little. m12 is funny….and not in haha kinda way.
Comment by dlet
Welcome back, dlet. :)
m12 is f*cking warped and devoid of humanity.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:47 pmOur society holds a $13 trillion GDP. I know you liberals hate the rich, but surely you don’t want your ‘universal’ healthcare to cut that to $3 trillion like those European nations.
Comment by m12 — June 22, 2007 @ 9:46 pm
Well I sure as hell don't!!!
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:47 pm#94
Dodging a simple question, I see. Well, I'd rather have you dodging questions than destroying innovation.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:48 pmCARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:48 pmI strive for truth in advertising :)
Comment by Tundra
You're just trying to make yourself look all tough, Tundra, but I know you're just a cuddly bear. :)
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:49 pmWhat is that…a week in Iraq?
Maybe a couple days worth of Medicare payments. $10000 per patient per year, courtesy of the federal government.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:49 pmDodging a simple question, I see. Well, I’d rather have you dodging questions than destroying innovation.
Comment by m12 — June 22, 2007 @ 9:48 pm
The pot is calling the kettle black.
Evolve, please.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:51 pmCARE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Comment by PRIMVS INTER PARES
I don't wanna, and you can't make me!
--Are we channeling each other this evening? Too weird.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:51 pmSorry Zooey, I hate m12 and all those that think like him. Plus, as much as I hate him, he's not really a troll - just wrong.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:52 pmIt’s my last read before going to bed.
Comment by trueblue
Awwww, c'mon!!
New baby keeping you up? :P
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:52 pmSorry Zooey, I hate m12 and all those that think like him. Plus, as much as I hate him, he’s not really a troll - just wrong.
Comment by Namtillaku
He's a troll AND wrong.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:54 pm#101
US GDP/capita: $44000
Canada GDP/capita: $35000
UK GDP/capita: $35000
France GDP/capita: $31000
or maybe we can copy Turkey, and cut our productivity to $9000 per person.
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:56 pmOk, I'll defer to you because I like you :) It's my policy to be nice to nice people, and otherwise, well you know...
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:56 pmYes, and I'm totally exhausted and in a foul mood!
I figure I better get some shut eye before the wailing begins.....
...what. an. idiot. i. am......
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:57 pmThe pot is calling the kettle black.
Evolve, please.
Evolve into what? A brainless moron like yourself?
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:57 pmWhoa, m12 is pulling out all the stops!!!
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:58 pmMaybe somebody else can answer:
How much is universal government healthcare going to cost the federal government, and how do you propose raising the revenue?
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:58 pmYou’re just trying to make yourself look all tough, Tundra, but I know you’re just a cuddly bear. :)
Comment by Zooey — June 22, 2007 @ 9:49 pm
SHHHHH
June 22nd, 2007 at 9:59 pmOk, I’ll defer to you because I like you :) It’s my policy to be nice to nice people, and otherwise, well you know…
Comment by Namtillaku
I just hate to see you pound your head on that brick wall. :)
June 22nd, 2007 at 10:02 pmOK, campers, listen up!
I've got some announcements. You can finish your pork barbecues while I'm speaking.
I'm Counselor Monica, but you can just call me Goody!
OK?
OK!
First of all, we need to hang together here, those of us who survived this afternoons tragedy, when Counselor Deadeye from Cabin #9 went berserk with his shotgun.
The good news is, his pacemaker batteries went dead before he could get to the rest of Camp GOPer, and he's dead now also.
Congratulations to the Camper Formerly Known As Primvs Whatever, with the expert tutelage of Pastor Ted and his assistant Daryll, he passed his final, oral exam with flying floorburns, got religion, and has adopted a well known 4th century scallawag as his new namesake.
Kilo, you have been observed again, in broad daylight again out at the burn barrel with the gardener.
May I remind you to be more discreet with your illicit substance abuse.
m12... you were tracked, by virtue of your shoe size, which is noticibly oversized for your age, across the dry lake bed over to the girls camp on the other side.
Let me remind you, this is a Republican Camp, and this kind of heterosexual behavior is highly frowned upon.
I have spoken to Miss Venus about her escapade over here on the boys side of the lake two nights ago, and she has assured me she will not cum over again.
She also said to inform all those concerned that they should visit the infirmary within the next week.
OK, now on to the fun stuff!
June 22nd, 2007 at 10:02 pmDo you know what tonight is?
That's right, it's spooky, scary, horror story night!
Our first storyteller is none other than, you guessed it, Counselor Snowman Tony!
He's got a real scary one, called, Leahy the Leviathan Shreds Alberto the Gone-o!
Yes, and I’m totally exhausted and in a foul mood!
I figure I better get some shut eye before the wailing begins…..
…what. an. idiot. i. am……
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Comment by trueblue
I hate to do it you ya, true, but.....
I. TOLD. YOU. SO. :-D
June 22nd, 2007 at 10:03 pmSHHHHH
Comment by Tundra
Heh.
June 22nd, 2007 at 10:04 pmComment by RNC Camp Activities Director — June 22, 2007 @ 10:02 pm
Mr. Director sir...
Um... last night... I saw Mr. Roboto, The Joker, and Falco sneaking out after dark... I told 'em not to, honest I did.
June 22nd, 2007 at 10:11 pmHow much is universal government healthcare going to cost the federal government, and how do you propose raising the revenue?
Comment by m12
We can just borrow the money from your alternate reality world so we'll never have to pay it back.
June 22nd, 2007 at 10:12 pmIn spring 2005, Paul Krugman wrote a series of columns in the NY Times that picked apart why the American health care system costs so much more than in the other leading industrialized countries. His conclusions (paraphrased):
1. The USA has no coherent system of health care finance.
2. The poor get health care in the most expensive way possible, namely through the emergency room.
3. Americans pay the highest drug prices in the world.
Hmm, does this mesh at all with the points "Sicko" is trying to make? I have a hunch, and I guess I'll find out in a week...
June 22nd, 2007 at 10:14 pmHow much is universal government healthcare going to cost the federal government, and how do you propose raising the revenue?
Comment by m12
We can just borrow the money from your alternate reality world so we’ll never have to pay it back.
Ok, that answers question 2. How about question 1? $2000 per person? $5000? $10000?
June 22nd, 2007 at 10:15 pmUm… last night… I saw Mr. Roboto, The Joker, and Falco sneaking out after dark… I told ‘em not to, honest I did.
Comment by PRIMVS INTER PARES
What was it, a triangle jerk?
June 22nd, 2007 at 10:19 pmWhat was it, a triangle jerk?
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity
Don't traumatize the child! :D
June 22nd, 2007 at 10:20 pmWhat was it, a triangle jerk?
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — June 22, 2007 @ 10:19 pm
Look for yourself... you can see a jerk of sorts on the thread above... I think his name is Obomayomomma.
June 22nd, 2007 at 10:21 pmThank you, Primus Augustus.
June 22nd, 2007 at 10:23 pmIf you had been present this morning at 9:00 AM for your cabin counselors discussion, you would have known that a statement such as this is precisely why you were selected for such rapid advancement and early exams.
Since you are being so helpful, would you be kind enough to take these Blackberrys out to the far western edge of camp, where, underneath the next to the last guard tower to the north, you will find a coffee can just within reach through a hole in the fence, put the 'berrys in the can and leave immediately, and don't look back, or you'll turn into a pillar of salt.
I can trust you, can't I......?
Sir, yes sir.
Anything for the RNC!!!
June 22nd, 2007 at 10:26 pmLook for yourself… you can see a jerk of sorts on the thread above… I think his name is Obomayomomma.
Comment by PRIMVS INTER PARES
The one wearing his mother's dress?
June 22nd, 2007 at 10:29 pmThat'd be the one... oh by the way, The Joker is out of his cage.
June 22nd, 2007 at 10:35 pmI work for big pharma. Sure research and development costs millions of dollars and pharmaceuticals should be re-imbursed for the expense of developing medicines and medical devices. The problem with big pharm is that it is GREEDY. It's all about making money for the investors and for the CEO's. The current trend is for big pharma to outsource as much of their work as possible... to India and China and South Africa so that they can reduce the cost of doing business. In the meantime, they raise the price of drugs while reducing their operating costs. With the exception of drugs that are still in the "testing phase", pratically all drugs are manufactured overseas in the same manufacturing plants. There was a recall of pet food because of contamination which occured in China. Think about this... many of our drugs, both prescription and over the counter are manufactured in China. SCARY.
June 22nd, 2007 at 10:36 pmThat’d be the one… oh by the way, The Joker is out of his cage.
Comment by PRIMVS INTER PARES
No F*#king sh*t... geez, where'd I put my baseball bat?
June 22nd, 2007 at 10:40 pmThink about this… many of our drugs, both prescription and over the counter are manufactured in China. SCARY.
Comment by Coffins draped with flags
Question for you... how much does Big Pharma spend on advertising each year? Ya know, trying to convince people like m12 that heartburn is actually a complicated diseas called "acid reflux" that requires a never-ending monthly presciption to manage?
June 22nd, 2007 at 10:46 pmEvolve into what? A brainless moron like yourself?
Comment by m12 — June 22, 2007 @ 9:57 pm
More projection from the *piss-drivel* known as m12 - BORING ZZZZzzz...
June 22nd, 2007 at 10:49 pmIn keeping with the "Jesus" theme that seems to appear in this thread...
Jesus gave away free health care when he cured the sick.
June 22nd, 2007 at 10:49 pmOk, that answers question 2. How about question 1? $2000 per person? $5000? $10000? Comment by m12 — June 22, 2007 @ 10:15 pm
Oh, poor little sh*thead. We already pay more per person than any industrialized country, because we don't have it. Or hadn't you read all of the projections about cost reductions, because of earlier treatment of diseases? We already pay for many of those people at the local, state and federal level - but only when they have to get expensive *emergency* treatment.
Pull your head out of your *ss, child. You sound like a spoiled, ignorant little redneck t*rd attached to a redneck boot.
June 22nd, 2007 at 10:51 pmIn keeping with the “Jesus†theme that seems to appear in this thread…
Jesus gave away free health care when he cured the sick.
Comment by Coffins draped with flags — June 22, 2007 @ 10:49 pm
Oh that... we was just funnin' around.
June 22nd, 2007 at 10:52 pmJesus gave away free health care when he cured the sick.
Comment by Coffins draped with flags
Well then clearly, Big Pharma would have kicked his smarmy butt all over the place, and back again.
June 22nd, 2007 at 10:52 pmRepublic... I agree. Like I said, big pharma is GREEDY. On occasion, I would receive emails asking me to contact my Congressperson and tell them to vote in favor of big pharma. I had to threatened them with harrassment on the job so that they would stop sending me these emails.
June 22nd, 2007 at 10:52 pmOk, that answers question 2. How about question 1? $2000 per person? $5000? $10000? Comment by m12 — June 22, 2007 @ 10:15 pm
Oh, and dum sh*t, you also forgot to think of all of the money it could *make* us as a country. GM says it costs 1500$ per car to pay for health insurance, that's free in Japan. That's right. It's 1500$ per unit cheaper to build a car in japan, just because of universal health care there.
Why do you hate american industry and americans so much, putz?
June 22nd, 2007 at 10:53 pmRepubilic #140...
Poor Jesus... getting his butt kick by big pharma... but not as bad a getting nail to a cross.
Jesus was a liberal persecuted by conservatives.
By the way, I'm an gnostic which means I don't really care if Jesus existed or not.
June 22nd, 2007 at 10:56 pmShut Down Entire Health Insurance Industry And Imprison The CEOs!
Friday 22nd of June 2007
by Jay Randal
Most Americans want Single-Payer healthcare system, but the health insurance industry wants that quashed, so it's time to prosecute the CEOs of the HMOs now.
Everyone who works for health insurance companies deserve to be unemployed, for all the harm they have done denying medical care, for in fact killing people.
Their greasy-spoon employment have harmed people who needed emergency medical care, who were denied life-saving procedures, who instead died from neglect.
The immense harm that the health insurance industry has caused is criminal negligence, which occurred for maximizing profits, which indicts them all as criminals.
Therefore no legitimate excuses exist to coddle them, nor to shield them from prosecution, nor to prevent the complete shut down of their operations nationwide.
The Congress must stand-up to shut them down now!
(Jay Randal, political activist and writer in Georgia, USA.)
PS: Bravo to Michael Moore for highlighting this issue in "Sicko."
June 22nd, 2007 at 10:57 pmJay R
Everyone who works for health insurance companies deserve to be unemployed, for all the harm they have done denying medical care, for in fact killing people.
Hey, lighten up. No American should be unemployed except for the crooks and liars, such as boy Bush, Deadeye Dick Cheney and traitor Rove.
June 22nd, 2007 at 11:00 pmm12, you are so full of sh!t. It does not take $800 million to bring a new drug to market. What a nonsensical statement! No two drugs cost the same amount to develop, research, test, and market. Some cost little and others cost a lot.
But let's put a little perspective in here. The average drug company spends more on sales & marketing than it does on R&D. Many drugs are developed for no better reason than a patent on a earlier drug is going to expire. Many drugs are merely symptom suppressants and some have only a 55% effectiveness rating. And of course there's the FDA scandal where drugs with lethal side effects are fast tracked for approval because certain doctors and regulators have received the old nudge-nudge-wink-wink.
BTW, many drugs are used for treatments of "off label" treatments. That means that the drug has been tested for one usage and no long term study has been done for other uses. Another problem is that many drug trials make exclusive use of adult males because the rapid changes in children and the menstrual cycle in women make it difficult to get "clean" results. And then the drugs are prescribed to women and children with no data on how it effects them.
June 22nd, 2007 at 11:06 pmBig Pharma and the insurance companies run one of the best scams on the planet.
They bilk companies out of more and more money each year, which invariably gets passed onto (read pissed onto) the employees who are lucky enough to work enough hours to even qualify.
Then there's the increasing deductable, the copay, and the spiraling cost of treatment for anything, including ingrown toenails.
I must admit I am one of the fortunate few who work for a company that provides an excellent health care package. They also pay less than the going wage, to compensate for the security and benefit package.
My wife's empoyer's package is expensive and how would you like to have mammograms covered, but only every other year. Good luck finding that breast cancer too late.
June 22nd, 2007 at 11:29 pmWhat defense could the pharmaceuticals and insurance folks possibly have without making complete foos of themselves? We could eleiminate the health isurance industry - the middle man - altogether and have better health car for half the cost. And they are going to buy smear tactics so they can continue ripping off the American people?
June 22nd, 2007 at 11:29 pmBy the way, I’m an gnostic which means I don’t really care if Jesus existed or not.
Comment by Coffins draped with flags
W/ a handle like The Republic of Stupdityâ„¢, do you think I really care either? For all I care, everyone can worship the Easter Bunny if it rocks their world. I just wish they'd either shut up or start making sense.
June 22nd, 2007 at 11:36 pmOh, and dum sh*t, you also forgot to think of all of the money it could *make* us as a country. GM says it costs 1500$ per car to pay for health insurance, that’s free in Japan. That’s right. It’s 1500$ per unit cheaper to build a car in japan, just because of universal health care there.
You forget the higher taxes Japanese have to pay, both the auto companies and the people.
June 22nd, 2007 at 11:37 pmIt does not take $800 million to bring a new drug to market. What a nonsensical statement! No two drugs cost the same amount to develop, research, test, and market. Some cost little and others cost a lot.
That's a ballpark figure. Read for yourself.
http://psychservices.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/57/8/1225?ref=Yapma.net
But let’s put a little perspective in here. The average drug company spends more on sales & marketing than it does on R&D. Many drugs are developed for no better reason than a patent on a earlier drug is going to expire.Many drugs are merely symptom suppressants and some have only a 55% effectiveness rating. And of course there’s the FDA scandal where drugs with lethal side effects are fast tracked for approval because certain doctors and regulators have received the old nudge-nudge-wink-wink.
If you don't like their products, don't buy them. I guess the rest of the nation doesn't share your view, given that Americans fill some 10 prescriptions per person per year.
June 22nd, 2007 at 11:40 pmComment by m12
Every working, competent health care professional I talk to says the system is broken. These people are the actual pros doing the work, not Ins company tools, not paid shills from the Heritage Foundation. Since you fantaisze endlessly that you and you alone know the truth, share it w/ us. What is the real answer?
June 22nd, 2007 at 11:41 pm#144
What about all the people who have been saved by big pharma's research?
June 22nd, 2007 at 11:41 pmMaybe a couple days worth of Medicare payments. $10000 per patient per year, courtesy of the federal government. Comment by m12 — June 22, 2007 @ 9:49 pm
As usual, we can count on you to make an unfounded bullsh*t statement.
Those costs are at the courtesy of the medicare premiums paid over a lifetime by those that are elderly and severly ill. A handful of people produce that costs, and the costs will remain the same whether private insurance, or public pays for it - dum bass. The difference? Private insurance would dump them at the first chance, and hospitals would bleed their assets dry. But hey, that kind of heartless shortsightedness is what I expect from you.
I notice you're using the 10,000 figure, after I corrected your 8,000 figure. You're welcome, st*pid child, for my patience to correct your many lies, distortions and misrepresentations - despite your unworthiness. Too bad for you, that you spent weeks posting the wrong numbers, too st*pid to know how wrong you were...
So, if only 7% of the most elderly require the bulk of the costs, then the resulting *healthy* americans should cost less, just as the healthy elderly do. But then again, *logic*, isn't your strong suit, is it b!tch?
June 22nd, 2007 at 11:41 pmYou forget the higher taxes Japanese have to pay, both the auto companies and the people. Comment by m12 — June 22, 2007 @ 11:37 pm
Prove it. Japan's tax rate is very comparable to ours, and they have universal health care. Please, go embarrass yourself - dum bass. Tell us about Japans' taxes.
June 22nd, 2007 at 11:43 pmWhat about all the people who have been saved by big pharma’s research? Comment by m12 — June 22, 2007 @ 11:41 pm
Prove how many people have been saved by big pharma's *recent* research. Exclude the drugs they bought.
June 22nd, 2007 at 11:45 pmEvery working, competent health care professional I talk to says the system is broken. These people are the actual pros doing the work, not Ins company tools, not paid shills from the Heritage Foundation. Since you fantaisze endlessly that you and you alone know the truth, share it w/ us. What is the real answer?
We need to push health savings accounts and give people incentive to minimize their expenditures by holding the receiver of care at least partially responsible for paying for it.
June 22nd, 2007 at 11:46 pmIf you don’t like their products, don’t buy them. I guess the rest of the nation doesn’t share your view, given that Americans fill some 10 prescriptions per person per year. Comment by m12 — June 22, 2007 @ 11:40 pm
Should we not buy them before or after they've maimed or killed us, because they weren't regulated properly by the GOP oriented FDA? Huh?
June 22nd, 2007 at 11:46 pmWe need to push health savings accounts and give people incentive to minimize their expenditures by holding the receiver of care at least partially responsible for paying for it. Comment by m12 — June 22, 2007 @ 11:46 pm
None of that addresses the 50 million uninsured - Jake*ss. You're as dense as a pile of sh*t - b!tch.
June 22nd, 2007 at 11:47 pm#155
http://www.worldwide-tax.com/japan/japan_tax.asp
Their taxes far outdo ours. 11.6% social security tax? 37% income tax? 20% dividend tax?
No thanks!
June 22nd, 2007 at 11:48 pmShould we not buy them before or after they’ve maimed or killed us, because they weren’t regulated properly by the GOP oriented FDA? Huh?
Before, preferrably. So many lefties whine about big pharma, about how much profits they make, about how ineffective their products are, but continue to buy their products.
June 22nd, 2007 at 11:51 pmSo, if only 7% of the most elderly require the bulk of the costs, then the resulting *healthy* americans should cost less, just as the healthy elderly do. But then again, *logic*, isn’t your strong suit, is it b!tch?
Maybe then we should cut those 7% off the rolls.
June 22nd, 2007 at 11:54 pmif you are idolizing a catholic saint and calling him a bad ass, you need to get out more
Comment by k — June 22, 2007 @ 8:58 pm
Why?
Have you not seen the pure light of the Lord?
Guard my life, O Lord, for I am devoted to you; save your servant who trusts in you.
k, are you new here or something?
Comment by AVGVSTINVS — June 22, 200
im not a bible junkie, but i know jesus pretty well, he sleeps in a truck at the end of my street, he mowed kirk cameron's lawn the other day
June 22nd, 2007 at 11:56 pmMaybe then we should cut those 7% off the rolls.
Comment by m12 — June 22, 2007 @ 11:54 pm
How very *eugenics* Nazi of you. Your papa adolph would be *proud* of your *morals*.
June 22nd, 2007 at 11:57 pmhttp://www.worldwide-tax.com/japan/japan_tax.asp
Their taxes far outdo ours. 11.6% social security tax? 37% income tax? 20% dividend tax?
No thanks!
Comment by m12 — June 22, 2007 @ 11:48 pm
Oh, poor st*pid little sh*thead. That's 37% for the HIGHEST WAGES, the US is currently 35%. WOW, that's SUCH A HUGE GAP!
Dum bass!
June 22nd, 2007 at 11:59 pmim not a bible junkie, but i know jesus pretty well, he sleeps in a truck at the end of my street, he mowed kirk cameron’s lawn the other day
Comment by k
heh!
June 22nd, 2007 at 11:59 pmBefore, preferrably. So many lefties whine about big pharma, about how much profits they make, about how ineffective their products are, but continue to buy their products. Comment by m12 — June 22, 2007 @ 11:51 pm
Says the f*cker that won't stop whining about sick old people...
Who says we're buying all of those expensive big pharma products? Poor st*pid little f*cker, were you a breach baby?
June 23rd, 2007 at 12:00 amHow very *eugenics* Nazi of you. Your papa adolph would be *proud* of your *morals*.
It's nothing of the sort. It's for the "common good" of 93% of Americans.
June 23rd, 2007 at 12:03 amWe need to push health savings accounts and give people incentive to minimize their expenditures by holding the receiver of care at least partially responsible for paying for it. Comment by m12
m12, health care savings accounts are not going to work.... you know it as we all do. Do your self a favor and get over the fact universal health care is on its way - a moral not for profit system ALL can enjoy. Every other industrialized country has it and they have not gone bankrupt. This issue certainly does separate the moral and good from the immoral and selfish.
June 23rd, 2007 at 12:03 amSays the f*cker that won’t stop whining about sick old people…
Who says we’re buying all of those expensive big pharma products? Poor st*pid little f*cker, were you a breach baby?
Supposedly big pharma is making 'outrageous' profits. Somebody is buying them.
June 23rd, 2007 at 12:04 amm12, health care savings accounts are not going to work…. you know it as we all do. Do your self a favor and get over the fact universal health care is on its way - a moral not for profit system ALL can enjoy. Every other industrialized country has it and they have not gone bankrupt. This issue certainly does separate the moral and good from the immoral and selfish.
Tell that to the Democratic Party of 1993, who got themselves pounded for your pipe dream.
I'm not sure what kind of religious morality you are talking about, but Americans will not let it cripple our mighty economy.
June 23rd, 2007 at 12:06 amMaybe then we should cut those 7% off the rolls.
Comment by m12
Riiiighto!!! Put 'em out on an ice floe, let the polar bears eat 'em...
June 23rd, 2007 at 12:10 am#165
Their tax rates used to be higher. They were part of what plunged Japan into the very long 1990's recession.
June 23rd, 2007 at 12:10 amIf you don’t like their products, don’t buy them. I guess the rest of the nation doesn’t share your view, given that Americans fill some 10 prescriptions per person per year.
Comment by m12
Well, seeing as BruschCoâ„¢ and the bootlick Repub Congress made it illegal to go buy Canadian pharmaceuticals, what would you suggest?
Oh, I know, DON'T get sick... wow, what reasoning!!!
June 23rd, 2007 at 12:13 am#172
Well, John Conyers is planning on screwing over 5-10% of owners with his plan. Go polar bears!
June 23rd, 2007 at 12:15 am#174
America has some of the cheapest generics in the world. Go look at them. Of course, when the end price to the consumer is the same copay for a cheap drug as it is for an expensive drug, few would take the cheap one.....
June 23rd, 2007 at 12:17 amWhat was it, a triangle jerk?
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity
No it was jerks in a triangle.
June 23rd, 2007 at 12:17 amguess what pharmaceuticals take a ton of money to make and regulate. i know, i make them. do you want something put in your body unregulated from 50 different countries. better yet do you want sweaty ass cubans making your medicine. if so please move down there and get over the fact that America was founded on capitalism and it will always be that way. please dont be commies here oh wait the whole dem party is.
June 23rd, 2007 at 12:17 amNo it was jerks in a triangle.
Comment by shane
Any way you cut it, someone was jerking something. If m12 wants to shake hands, I tink I'd just say, "Naaah, some other time..."
June 23rd, 2007 at 12:21 amWe need to push health savings accounts and give people incentive to minimize their expenditures by holding the receiver of care at least partially responsible for paying for it.
Comment by m12
You are one ignorant asshole. You don't think most people with insurance have to pay part of the bill. How about copays, and deductibles. What do you think those are. And most people have to pay part of the health insurance cost. As an employer I way $275 per week per employee for health care. And those are costs I have to pass down to customers. It's the insurance I have myself and in the last month I've had to pay $1,200 in out of pocket expenses because my insurance didn't cover things like a mammogram which I hadn't had for 3 years. And my costs are huge for minor tests because of all the people who pay nothing because they don't have coverage or any money, jackass.
June 23rd, 2007 at 12:28 amSo many lefties whine about big pharma, about how much profits they make, about how ineffective their products are, but continue to buy their products.
Comment by m12
Yeah, they buy the products their doctors perscribe. How dare they complain! I can't wait for the first time you have to use your health insurance coverage.
June 23rd, 2007 at 12:37 amYeah, they buy the products their doctors perscribe. How dare they complain! I can’t wait for the first time you have to use your health insurance coverage.
How dare they indeed? If drugs were really too expensive, nobody would be asking for prescriptions!
June 23rd, 2007 at 12:45 amAny way you cut it, someone was jerking something. If m12 wants to shake hands, I tink I’d just say, “Naaah, some other time…â€
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity
Amen. But I'm sure m12's breath keeps everybody far enough away to make handshakes impossible. What is the smell of evil?
June 23rd, 2007 at 12:46 amHow dare they indeed? If drugs were really too expensive, nobody would be asking for prescriptions!
Comment by m12
Yeah that's makes sense. Don't take the medicine that keeps you healthy enough to go to work, have a stroke and get on disability. That will save the USA some money. By the way, make sure you tell your parents and grandparents to get off the dole, put their feet up and pray for a quick and cheap death because you don't want their expenses on your tax bill.
June 23rd, 2007 at 12:58 amBy the way, make sure you tell your parents and grandparents to get off the dole, put their feet up and pray for a quick and cheap death because you don’t want their expenses on your tax bill.
Comment by shane
My mom's prescriptions cost about $1000 per month, just cuz she would like to stay alive as long as she can. Thank goodness she doesn't have to choose between eating and living.
Sick f*cks like m12 would have her die ASAP.
June 23rd, 2007 at 1:03 amMeanwhile, LA Times claims Sicko leaving Dems ill at ease.
June 23rd, 2007 at 1:06 am
Okay. Weird. You'd think there wouldn't be a "link" format if they're going to strip them.
Fine. Click on my name for LA Times story [man - did somebody just script kiddy some PHP to put this forum together?]
June 23rd, 2007 at 1:08 amTell that to the Democratic Party of 1993, who got themselves pounded for your pipe dream.
comment by m12
You don't remember? IT WAS the Republican congress that stopped Hilliary's health care plan.
June 23rd, 2007 at 1:17 am#187 - not to mention Big Pharma itself with their Harry and Louise ads...namely the Health Insurance Association of America
yeah some unbiased folks there...
June 23rd, 2007 at 1:24 amSo, if the United States has the best health care in the world, can anyone name any other industrialized countries that have replaced their "inferior" system with one similar to ours? After all, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery.
June 23rd, 2007 at 2:23 amIn 2006, Johnson and Johnson’s CEO received salary and bonuses of $28 million, according to Dow Jones. Merck CEO Richard Clark received $10 million in compensation. The golden parachute Pfizer CEO Henry McKinnell got when he left the company in 2006 included pension, stock and other benefits worth $180 million, according to AFL-CIO Corpwatch. CEO William McGuire of UnitedHealth Group received an annual salary in 2005 of $124 million and stock options worth more than $1.7 billion, according to Forbes.com. If real health care reform were undertaken, these poor CEOs might have to scrape by on a few million bucks less a year -- now, we wouldn't want to have that on our conscience, would we?
June 23rd, 2007 at 2:36 amWell. While we're at it. I think the people should split up the proceeds from politician's windfall profits. Bill Clinton made $7.5 million for just talking last year. I mean - all he did was talk. How unfair is that? We, the people, are the ones who should benefit from that egregious talk gouging. Big Talk needs to be punished. The Big Talkers are profiting off of our public sound waves.
Let's pass legislation now to split up those ill-gotten profits amongst the poor working class people. Who's with me?
[And - rather than trying to do the "you're a 'ditto" f*ck, or whatever the lesser thinkers do here..... let's tally up what *all* of our politicians make just for having been selected to represent us. I only popped up Bill Clinton because I knew it would get attention. Yes - an underhanded tactic - I admit it - but let's see if we can tally up a total of the Big Talk profits that have been handed to our representatives for 2006. I'd be more than happy to call all of them onto the rug for it].
June 23rd, 2007 at 4:00 amClick on my name for Huckabee [same for the previous post/troll]. It was only $140,000 for the "2006-2007" season. But - again - that's just for freaking talking.....
So - is there a way to create a document on this site? Or is this place pretty "non" Web 2.0....
And, when I say Web 2.0, I often think of technology, but in reality it means that we - the users - are in charge. We can create stories. We can create threads. We can contribute.
This place could use a lot of updating to make it into a grassroots organization. Let me know if you're interested [that's more aimed at the PTBs, but I'd like to hear back from the actual people with power - the posters - also].
June 23rd, 2007 at 4:13 ami went thru 190 comments, check all the numbers thrown out by m12 by combing through Nexus/Lexus, Cato, and Hertage as well as various creative google searches (eg, "tax rates japan") and found his references to be fabrications. you all let him throw them around without asking for references. shame on you. the $800M per drug research and approval number was caught and challenged by one person, but thats about it.
you folks will have better luck against these industry stooges if you 'out-research' them and call them on their fake numbers.
did you know the average republican family pays $3400 less per year for medical expenses because they are more likely to be health concious than democrats? i am, of course, kidding. but see how easy it is for Angry White Men like m12 to appear knowledgeable?
June 23rd, 2007 at 5:00 amDo you know what gets me with the right on this one?
They moan and bitch about the death of traditional values. You know, the disintigration of what we consider to be good.
Last I checked those traditional old time values included the healthy subsidising (AKA careing for) the sick.
It shows just how much the rightwing has damaged the American psyche that caring for the sick is being called a great wrong, rather then being something to America's credit.
June 23rd, 2007 at 5:03 amI've seen the TSA [Transportation Safety Administration]. I envision the UHC [Universal Health Care].
No thanks.
June 23rd, 2007 at 5:14 amThey're going to have to do a lot more than send out the swiftboaters. I've seen the film, and they have reason a plenty to be scared witless. The only hope they have of stopping this revolution is to prevent people from ever seeing Sicko.
So bring on the swiftboating publicity team!
Michael Moore rocks!!!
June 23rd, 2007 at 5:15 amFew people disagree that we have a health insurance problem in America (as do most other countries). The reason liberals like Hillary and Bill don't have the wide spread support of the American public isn't because there isn't a problem, but rather that their answer is having the government run health care. I wouldn't care if the government's attempt to run other social programs (i.e. social security, medicare, medicaid, etc.) were even marginally effective. I have a good idea, let's give management of arguably one of the most complex and important services to the federal government to manage. Good one.
June 23rd, 2007 at 8:30 amBren, single-payer universal healthcare does have popular support. Check your facts. And Newt deepsixed Bill & Hillary's plan through a misinformation campaign.
BTW, the private sector/public sector debate is largely neo-con myths. For every mess done by government I can point to one in the private sector. The difference is that when the private sector screws up, it's the public who is forced to bail them out --with no compensation!
June 23rd, 2007 at 8:54 amMethinks they doth protest too much.....
June 23rd, 2007 at 9:01 am.
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Bren
Go to a library and read about pre-Depression America. Read about how people really lived, ignore the "Economists" just read about people living back then. You will see something strange: Americans starved back before social welfare. Old people in America starved before social security.
Social security in effect, when under a good president, proved to be the tool which banned poverty in America.
Now tell me that social security, didn't work.
Under Bush America's government has suffered because Bush sucks as a manager. Look at his personal history in business: He couldn't find oil in Texas in the seventies. He never really ran a successful business - he just didn't have the ability required.
Now look at him in charge of America: Poverty rates are up, a major American city renowned all around the world is still half in ruins, and America is running out of money to borrow. This is not a reflection of America's social programs, this is a reflection of America's basically shit current president.
June 23rd, 2007 at 9:53 amI'm another Canadian but also American, as I was born there but have lived in Canada most of my life.
June 23rd, 2007 at 9:53 amI agree with David about Canada's universal care. I like his comparison of the the taxes we Canadians pay for ALL of our citizens to get equal treatment for their health care as opposed to the Insurance premiums some Americans pay to get care the only is decided by their HMO. There are denials for treatment and also there are many Americans, many of them children who have no health care insurance. American can never call itself the "greatest" country in the world, while not having top standing in health care. Many smaller countries have a better standing in infant mortality. America is greatest when it comes to warfare and war profiting.
One thing big Pharma has is lots of money. Money they have stolen from regular Americans.
June 23rd, 2007 at 9:59 amThey don't want socialized health care just socialized profits.
m12, your arguments are nonsensical. The Drug Companies are engaged in creative accounting, vanity production, and shakedowns.
Why does a drug cost $200/pill in the USA that costs $2/pill in Europe? Why is the government subsidized research at universities --so important in many drugs-- taken as a free lunch by Big Pharma? Why is Big Pharma allowed to wine/dine/bribe doctors and other healthcare providers in order to push their latest and most expensive drugs, but government would be considered an intrusion in a patient's choice? Patients don't even have choice now as the HMO is the Decider on all healthcare matters and NOT the doctor or the patient.
I find your "Buy Drugs or Die" attitude hilarious tyrannical. America's seniors did take your advice and they refused to buy Big Pharma's overpriced drugs and they turned to Canada. Guess what? Big Pharma responded with a massive campaign to have that forbidden. Suddenly Canada pharmacies were being portrayed as being of a 3rd World quality. Sheesh!
Let's get something straight, m12, universal healthcare is what will bring choice to the doctor & the patient --the current system does not. Big Pharma is a cartel; they've successfully lobbyied for longer and longer patent terms and they meddle with healthcare providers through bribery and direct-to-consumer advertising which is often vague and fearmongering.
As for higher taxes, do you think private healthcare costs nothing? What's the difference between paying $2000 in insurance premiums and paying $2000 in healthcare taxes? Well, for one thing, government supervised single-payer universal healthcare costs less per capita than the HMO version. And, guess what? Because it's a government concern, the people can send a message about the quality of healthcare to Washington every 2 years. Do you think your HMO cares a fig what you think? Come on, you know they don't. And S!CKO proves it.
June 23rd, 2007 at 10:00 amWhy does a drug cost $200/pill in the USA that costs $2/pill in Europe?
Because European government strongarm pharmaceutical companies and steal their patents otherwise.
I find your “Buy Drugs or Die†attitude hilarious tyrannical. America’s seniors did take your advice and they refused to buy Big Pharma’s overpriced drugs and they turned to Canada. Guess what? Big Pharma responded with a massive campaign to have that forbidden. Suddenly Canada pharmacies were being portrayed as being of a 3rd World quality. Sheesh!
If we can't trade with China because of human rights abuses, why can we trade with Canada due to patent abuses?
Why is the government subsidized research at universities –so important in many drugs– taken as a free lunch by Big Pharma?
It's not a free lunch. Big Pharma pays billions for its research.
As for higher taxes, do you think private healthcare costs nothing? What’s the difference between paying $2000 in insurance premiums and paying $2000 in healthcare taxes? Well, for one thing, government supervised single-payer universal healthcare costs less per capita than the HMO version.
The difference is consumer choice. Healthy individuals who wouldn't be paying $2000 in insurance premiums get shafted. Plus, it's a hell of a lot easier to dodge taxes!
June 23rd, 2007 at 10:17 amMy mom’s prescriptions cost about $1000 per month, just cuz she would like to stay alive as long as she can. Thank goodness she doesn’t have to choose between eating and living.
Then you probably should be thanking them for their work instead of hating them.
June 23rd, 2007 at 10:18 am#207
An addendum. Your hero Conyers is planning far more than $2000 in taxes. Between his new 3.3% payroll tax, his repeal of the Bush tax cuts, and his extra 5% "health" tax, and the gutting of the Pentagon, it all sums up to a lot more.
June 23rd, 2007 at 10:24 amYou don’t remember? IT WAS the Republican congress that stopped Hilliary’s health care plan.
The Republican Congress brought into power because people were fed up with your bull.
June 23rd, 2007 at 10:31 amHey I just went to the doctor in Malaysia. Cost of the visit? Nothing. See, health care is free for everyone in Malaysia, even to foreigners. So that'S all for now folks, God Bless America, the greatest f**king country on the face of the planet.
June 23rd, 2007 at 10:47 amA governmental agency can be very effective when those in power are not actively attempting to sabotage it. A related story came out several years ago, when Lamar Alexander was running for president. While governor of Tennessee, he cut funding to the state prison system at every possible opportunity, and predictably, problems eventually surfaced. His answer: turn prison operations over to a private corporation (I think it was either Corrections Corporation of American or Wackenhut). The incentive: his wife was a major stockholder in that company. It would be extremely naive to think that this was an isolated incident.
Only when enough people in this country demand a government that is accountable to the people, rather than the largest campaign contributors, will any meaningful change occur. In the meantime, the destruction of the middle class will continue unabated. So, do you think you'll become one of the feudal lords, or one of the serfs, realizing that there is very little room at the top?
So far, I have yet to find an answer to the question I raised in post #192.
June 23rd, 2007 at 11:22 amAmerica has the most 'expensive' healthcare system in the world --not the best.
And let's be honest, Americans are among the most unhealthiest people on the face of the planet. And the simple solutions of good diet, exercise, clean air, water, and food seems to escape them as they'd rather be couch potatoes eating cheap salt, fat and sugar while inhaling toxic air and drinking tainted water and eating 'processed' food laced with pesticides.
June 23rd, 2007 at 11:30 amInsurance companies and pharmaceutical companies are the biggest donators to political campaigns that there is. Until something changes in this criminal government that we are running, drugs will continue to skyrocket, people will continue to be dropped from their health care plans even if they have paid faithfully, and the rich will continue to become richer and the poor poorer. The sad factor is that Congress should and could do something about it!!! But they go off to their big homes, collect their big paychecks, and continue lying to the public that change will happen. This nation needs free health care for the public. Let the rich pay for it!!! Repeal the Bush tax cuts-there is absolutely no reason in the world why these rich CEO's and others need to have the astronomical amount of wealth that they have. What I find very amusing is these rich people who donate large sums of money to health care fields, get hospitals named after them, and get all this attention!!! They're doing it for the tax cuts!!!!! I do not give them credit. They need to start spilling more money to the treasury!!!
June 23rd, 2007 at 11:49 am"I’d much rather work with the greatest healthcare system in the world - bar none- even with it’s warts then allow government to intercede."
Actually, this "greatest health care system in the world" has produced high infant mortality rates and lowered our longevity. I think we rate something like 34th in the world for our health care services.
My sister moved to England 20 years ago with a guy she met here in the States. She is no longer with him, but she won't be coming back to the USA. Why you ask? Because she is not willing to give up her health care and all of here other benefits she gets by being a citizen of the UK.
The problem with the US is that we (meaning the people who run our government) consider health care to be a privilege and not a right. Every other industrialized nation considers health care to be a right and not a privilege.
June 23rd, 2007 at 11:58 am"Do you know what gets me with the right on this one? They moan and bitch about the death of traditional values. You know, the disintigration of what we consider to be good. Last I checked those traditional old time values included the healthy subsidising (AKA careing for) the sick."
It is like the Republic's attitude towards abortion. They want to force women who can't afford another child to have the child. Then when that mother needs assistance, they scream and yell and caller a "welfare queen". They love the fetus and hate the child.
Actually it is my opinion that the reason why the Republics want to force poor women to have children is that these children will be a good source of cannon fodder when they need them. A large majority of the people who enlist in our armed forces are doing so because that is the only way they can escape the poverty of their existence.
June 23rd, 2007 at 12:02 pm"You don’t remember? IT WAS the Republican congress that stopped Hilliary’s health care plan."
And we all remember those "Harry & Louise" commercials where they warned that if we voted for national health care, we would lose our right to choose our doctors and some "bureaucrat" would be making decisions about our health. Guess what guys. It came to pass. But it wasn't a national health care system that did it to us, it was the health care industry that sponsored the advertisements. I would much rather have a government bureaucrat make a decision about my health care than a for-profit health care bureaucrat.
June 23rd, 2007 at 12:06 pmA couple of things to add to the debate.
June 23rd, 2007 at 12:11 pm1. Often times the U.S. government is backing the research done by the big PHARMA companies, so it is taxpayer money paying for the research.
2. The companies are in business to make a profit; to maximize profit, not cure or heal anything.
I'll give you one small example:
Noscapine, a non-narcotic derivative of the opium poppy has been used in many cough medicine preparations. Preliminary research has shown noscapine to be highly effective against certain kinds of cancer. More research needs to be done, but big Pharma is not interested. Why not? Because noscapine is cheap, readily available, and cannot be patented. It probably works, as do many other drugs we will never hear about, because there just is not enough money to be made. This will not change as long as we have a for-profit health care industry...that's why the government should institute a single payer system (thanks Dennis Kucinich).
Actually I think that the huge mega coporate health
June 23rd, 2007 at 12:35 pminsurance companies cannot say anything that could be rebutted with vigor and certainty.
The obvious is in the statistics and facts. Facts don't lie with exceptions.
We are the richest and most powerful nation in the world and we should be number one in all or most
health related categories amongst all nations but we are not.
Commonsense can go a long ways with this issue and it does. Ask anyone on the street and they can be reluctant to say anything positive about the cost of
health related issues with regard to cost.
Healthcare in America is a cartel. And they could implode just as Enron did. And they promote themselves as THE solution to the problem, but they are the problem.
Big Pharma is not the solution. Big Pharma is the problem.
June 23rd, 2007 at 12:46 pmBTW, I'm Canadian and I've always had the right to pick my own doctor. Indeed, my doctor has opted for an annual salary based on the size of his practice and not by how many procedures he performs or pills he prescribes. Of course, he's a socialist.
June 23rd, 2007 at 12:48 pmMichael Moore's "Sicko" - Propagantastic!
Michael Moore's new documentary, Sicko, is a brilliantly executed film work that approaches a difficult subject with an open mind, and delivers its facts with a surprising evenhandedness and absence of bias.
Fine. I lied. If he can do it, so can I.
Still, I have to admit that watching Sicko was an eye-opening experience. Here's just a few of the amazing things I learned:
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* British hospitals not only offer free medical treatment, but also free argument clinics and free being-hit-on-the-head lessons.
* There is an acute shortage of human blood in US hospitals, because federal regulations require hospital administrators to drink it in celebration after every denial of treatment to the uninsured.
* Cuba has the best health care system in the world, since it provides a skilled physician from Spain to examine every Cuban President in the country.
* Unlike in America, you'll never see a long line of desperately ill people waiting at a health clinic, since in Britain it's called a "queue".
* Most pharmaceutical companies recycle by making their drugs out of people who died because they couldn't afford to buy the drugs.
* 50 million Americans are uninsured and are at severe risk of paying money in exchange for products and services.
* American health insurance premiums are determined by using a complex array of morbidity & mortality charts, combined with 20-sided dice-throws from a basement full of D&D nerds.
* Britain's health care system is modelled on Canada's. Their dental care system - Alabama's.
* The French not only provide free health care, they also provide free nannies for recovering patients with children. Still working on air conditioners for the elderly though.
* The ultimate proof of the superiority of Canada's health care system? Hospital gowns that completely cover your ass.
* The health care system in place at the Guantanamo detention facility is closer to France's system than America's, since it's full of angry, unassimilated Muslims.
* In order to get decent health care in the US, you first must get abused by a cynical, unshaven doctor with a limp and a Vicodin addiction.
* Unlike in America, a French hospital does not have to charge fifty dollars for a couple of lousy Tylenol, since their currency is the Euro.
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The other thing I learned is that listening to Michael Moore discuss the importance of good health care is like listening to Ted Kennedy discuss the importance of sobriety.
June 23rd, 2007 at 12:50 pmThe Repukes have polluted our airwaves (which are supposed to belong to We the People) with simple catch phrases such as Liberal Media, Clear Skies, No Child Left Behind, Faith-Based Initiatives, etc. Why not start a catch phrase to counter those who support the status quo with regard to health care? If someone is opposed to social medicine, then they must surely be supporting "antisocial medicine." Has a descriptive ring to it, don't you think?
Isn't it comforting to know that if you need life-saving, but expensive, medical intervention, your health insurance company (as a corporation) is legally responsible to do everything possible to deliver maximum return for its shareholders? Under such a circumstance, you represent a threat to their bottom line. The sooner you die, the smaller the dent you'll make in their profits.
Think that filing a civil suit will help to keep these health care insurers in line? The bought and paid for politicians in Washington, D.C. are closing off that option with what is charitably called "tort reform." And, even if you could sue, this is assuming that, with all the delaying tactics that are likely to be taken by the other side, you'll live long enough to derive any benefit from a positive outcome in court.
June 23rd, 2007 at 12:58 pmThis nation needs free health care for the public. Let the rich pay for it!!! Repeal the Bush tax cuts-there is absolutely no reason in the world why these rich CEO’s and others need to have the astronomical amount of wealth that they have. What I find very amusing is these rich people who donate large sums of money to health care fields, get hospitals named after them, and get all this attention!!! They’re doing it for the tax cuts!!!!! I do not give them credit. They need to start spilling more money to the treasury!!!
Well, at least someone is honest about wanting to punish the rich. Too bad the politicians in DC don't admit it.
June 23rd, 2007 at 1:17 pmIsn’t it comforting to know that if you need life-saving, but expensive, medical intervention, your health insurance company (as a corporation) is legally responsible to do everything possible to deliver maximum return for its shareholders? Under such a circumstance, you represent a threat to their bottom line. The sooner you die, the smaller the dent you’ll make in their profits.
I'm comforted, yeah, knowing that my health insurance company will minimize costs. See, unlike the government, it doesn't take my money by force.
June 23rd, 2007 at 1:20 pmThink that filing a civil suit will help to keep these health care insurers in line? The bought and paid for politicians in Washington, D.C. are closing off that option with what is charitably called “tort reform.†And, even if you could sue, this is assuming that, with all the delaying tactics that are likely to be taken by the other side, you’ll live long enough to derive any benefit from a positive outcome in court.
You can still sue. You just can't sue for grossly excessive punitive damages, which, by definition, have nothing to do with the harm done to you.
Why do lawsuit patients hate their doctors?
June 23rd, 2007 at 1:23 pmMy sister moved to England 20 years ago with a guy she met here in the States. She is no longer with him, but she won’t be coming back to the USA. Why you ask? Because she is not willing to give up her health care and all of here other benefits she gets by being a citizen of the UK.
Good for her. She doesn't retain the benefit of living in the world's largest economy, safeguarded by the world's greatest military.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/17/weekinreview/17bawer.html?ex=1271390400&en=44ea05b3e068feb5&ei=5090&partner=rssuserland&emc=rss
THE received wisdom about economic life in the Nordic countries is easily summed up: people here are incomparably affluent, with all their needs met by an efficient welfare state. They believe it themselves. Yet the reality - as this Oslo-dwelling American can attest, and as some recent studies confirm - is not quite what it appears.
Even as the Scandinavian establishment peddles this dubious line, it serves up a picture of the United States as a nation divided, inequitably, among robber barons and wage slaves, not to mention armies of the homeless and unemployed. It does this to keep people believing that their social welfare system, financed by lofty income taxes, provides far more in the way of economic protections and amenities than the American system. Protections, yes -but some Norwegians might question the part about amenities.
In Oslo, library collections are woefully outdated, and public swimming pools are in desperate need of maintenance. News reports describe serious shortages of police officers and school supplies. When my mother-in-law went to an emergency room recently, the hospital was out of cough medicine. Drug addicts crowd downtown Oslo streets, as The Los Angeles Times recently reported, but applicants for methadone programs are put on a months-long waiting list.
In Norway, the standard line is that there must be some mistake, that such things simply should not happen in "the world's richest country." Why do Norwegians have such a wealthy self-image? Partly because, compared with their grandparents (who lived before the discovery of North Sea oil), they are rich. Few, however, question whether it really is the world's richest country.
After I moved here six years ago, I quickly noticed that Norwegians live more frugally than Americans do. They hang on to old appliances and furniture that we would throw out. And they drive around in wrecks. In 2003, when my partner and I took his teenage brother to New York - his first trip outside of Europe - he stared boggle-eyed at the cars in the Newark Airport parking lot, as mesmerized as Robin Williams in a New York grocery store in "Moscow on the Hudson."
One image in particular sticks in my mind. In a Norwegian language class, my teacher illustrated the meaning of the word matpakke - "packed lunch" - by reaching into her backpack and pulling out a hero sandwich wrapped in wax paper. It was her lunch. She held it up for all to see.
Yes, teachers are underpaid everywhere. But in Norway the matpakke is ubiquitous, from classroom to boardroom. In New York, an office worker might pop out at lunchtime to a deli; in Paris, she might enjoy quiche and a glass of wine at a brasserie. In Norway, she will sit at her desk with a sandwich from home.
It is not simply a matter of tradition, or a preference for a basic, nonmaterialistic life. Dining out is just too pricey in a country where teachers, for example, make about $50,000 a year before taxes. Even the humblest of meals - a large pizza delivered from Oslo's most popular pizza joint - will run from $34 to $48, including delivery fee and a 25 percent value added tax.
Not that groceries are cheap, either. Every weekend, armies of Norwegians drive to Sweden to stock up at supermarkets that are a bargain only by Norwegian standards. And this isn't a great solution, either, since gasoline (in this oil-exporting nation) costs more than $6 a gallon.
All this was illuminated last year in a study by a Swedish research organization, Timbro, which compared the gross domestic products of the 15 European Union members (before the 2004 expansion) with those of the 50 American states and the District of Columbia. (Norway, not being a member of the union, was not included.)
After adjusting the figures for the different purchasing powers of the dollar and euro, the only European country whose economic output per person was greater than the United States average was the tiny tax haven of Luxembourg, which ranked third, just behind Delaware and slightly ahead of Connecticut.
June 23rd, 2007 at 1:26 pmMoore's proposals would only help people like him who are "overweight and and/or live decidedly unhealthy lifestyles by frequenting fast-food restaurants, smoke, or use drugs.â€
In other words, the vast majority of Americans.
June 23rd, 2007 at 1:37 pmPer capita health spending in the U.S. in 2006 was $7,129 — more than double Canada’s spending of $2,956 (U.S.) per capita. All Canadians are covered under that nation’s non-profit national health insurance program. The study comes on the heels of recent findings from the Joint U.S. Canada Health Survey that Canadians enjoy access to care similar to that for insured Americans, and far better than for the uninsured in the U.S.
June 23rd, 2007 at 1:37 pmm12, if you hate being in a country where people are taxed, why don't you move to Saudi Arabia? From the Heritage Foundation's website, "Saudi Arabia has high levels of fiscal freedom, labor freedom, property rights, and monetary freedom. Except for a mandatory Islamic 2.5 percent Zakat charitable contribution, the government imposes no taxes on personal or corporate income. Saudi Arabia's labor market is flexible, as the government imposes few costs on employing or firing workers. Inflation is less than 1 percent, and the government maintains no direct price supports." Move there, and you'll think you've landed in heaven.
I hope the Reich Wing is paying you well for polluting this website with your deliberate obfuscations. The issue you were responding to on Post #224 was health care insurers. Like most Reich Wing Goebbels wannabes, you change the subject to doctors.
So, are you auditioning to fill in for Hannity when he is on vacation?
How are your shares in the healthcare companies doing?
And, also, while you are at it, please provide an answer to the question I raised in Post #192. We are all anxiously awaiting your response.
June 23rd, 2007 at 1:43 pmm12, it's not free healthcare. There's nothing honest about that misrepresentation. It's universal healthcare paid for by a progressive income tax. The average America will actually have more coverage for less money under such a system. The rich can still opt for specialized care. And the poor can get the treatment they need without becoming homeless or dying in the gutter. (I know, you probably think that's the domain of Christian charity, but somehow I get the impression that you are neither Christian nor charitable.)
You know, you can contact the Canadian archives to look at all the crap published about the "evils" of socialized medicine during our big healthcare debate back in the 1960s. They all turned out to be false. It's just fearmongering nonsense. And even conservative politicians can't get elected if they diss the system. We know we get better healthcare, cheaper drugs, and more honest treatment than Americans.
That last is important. Why? Because where healthcare is 'for-profit' it is in the interest of the doctor, the hospital and Big Pharma to 'treat' you as often and as long as possible. Americans are four times more likely to have their tonsils removed than Canadians. Why? It's not because Canadians are healthier, it's because American doctors use the tonsillectomy as a cash-flow generator; it's a safe minor surgery that doesn't break the bank account. I still have my tonsils --and I've had tonsillitis 3 or 4 times. (Tonsils aren't useless, you know.)
June 23rd, 2007 at 1:59 pmm12, if you hate being in a country where people are taxed, why don’t you move to Saudi Arabia? From the Heritage Foundation’s website, “Saudi Arabia has high levels of fiscal freedom, labor freedom, property rights, and monetary freedom. Except for a mandatory Islamic 2.5 percent Zakat charitable contribution, the government imposes no taxes on personal or corporate income. Saudi Arabia’s labor market is flexible, as the government imposes few costs on employing or firing workers. Inflation is less than 1 percent, and the government maintains no direct price supports.†Move there, and you’ll think you’ve landed in heaven.
Because I am an American, and I support our President, our economy, and our system of justice. If you hate all of these things, why are you here?
My shares are doing well, thanks!
June 23rd, 2007 at 2:12 pmJapan is doing quite well with their government controlled system.
"Japanese people are traditionally unwilling to voice displeasure or unhappiness with the government, but rising healthcare costs are causing an increasing number of people to speak out. People are becoming more sensitive to quality of care, hearing of frequent reporting of medical errors, long waiting times for outpatient service in large hospitals, and an extremely short consultation time. Additionally, patients' access to information about their medical records is patchy at best, and the lack of physician peer review organizations or widespread hospital accreditation is causing some concern."
June 23rd, 2007 at 2:15 pm#192
http://www.aapsonline.org/nod/newsofday386.php
Enjoy!
• “Japan saves by requiring less training of doctors and paying them lessâ€
• Japanese “doctors say they have little time for patientsâ€
• Until recently, many Japanese cancer patients weren’t even told that they had the disease—family members “often felt it was cruel to burden the patient with information†about the cancer diagnosis.
According to legislator Takashi Yamamoto, who was just diagnosed with cancer, “abandoned cancer refugees are roaming the Japanese archipelago.†Patients are told they’ll never get better, even when treatments exist, and many are not even informed of their diagnosis.
Japanese public television showed the stark contrast. In the U.S., multiple specialists meet to discuss a cancer patient’s care. In Japan, a single doctor usually makes the diagnosis and carries out treatment with minimal consultation.
Galvanized by a speech by Yamamoto, the parliament passed a bill calling for more cancer specialists and a permanent role for patients in policymaking.
But while patients want American-style treatment, policymakers are alarmed. With a huge national debt and corporations worried about higher taxes, they say Japan can’t afford to pour money into treatments that can’t extend lifespan by very much.
June 23rd, 2007 at 2:16 pmI find it odd, m12, that someone worried about patent infringement would then violate copyright protection by cutting & pasting an article from the NYTimes. The link would have sufficed --perhaps with a short quote.
And why Bruce Bawer??? Do you even know who he is and what he thinks? I wouldn't call him a reliable witness. And why on earth did he decide to dump America for Norway anyhow. I think that'll explain a few of his rather idiosyncratic opinions.
June 23rd, 2007 at 2:18 pmThat last is important. Why? Because where healthcare is ‘for-profit’ it is in the interest of the doctor, the hospital and Big Pharma to ‘treat’ you as often and as long as possible. Americans are four times more likely to have their tonsils removed than Canadians. Why? It’s not because Canadians are healthier, it’s because American doctors use the tonsillectomy as a cash-flow generator; it’s a safe minor surgery that doesn’t break the bank account. I still have my tonsils –and I’ve had tonsillitis 3 or 4 times. (Tonsils aren’t useless, you know.)
Ok, and? Nobody is forcibly strapping you to the table. Don't want surgery, don't get it.
Canadians are healthier than Americans. Just look at Michael Moore and the healthcare he must be consuming. Well, at least he pays for it.
June 23rd, 2007 at 2:18 pmm12 -- Like all Reich Wingers, instead of responding to my questions (except for the one about your health care investments), you again display the time-dishonored tactic of changing the subject. Like your fellow kool-aid imbibers, you accuse those who advocate for positive change in this country of hate.
Again, you've dodged the other issues raised in Post #228.
So, if you fail to respond to those matters (and, changing the subject doesn't count as a response), shall we all assume that the other concerns in that posting are correct?
June 23rd, 2007 at 2:27 pmm12, don't be a jackass! If a doctor tells you you should have your tonsils or your appendix out, what do you do? The most one can try is to get a second opinion. But a doctor is in a position of trust. If a doctor advises something, you tend to consider it an expert opinion. We don't often think the doc is a leech trying to pay for that expensive divorce, do we?
When you see the doc and he prescribes a drug, do you question the need for the drug? Do you demand to know the side-effect statistics? Do you demand to know what cheaper generics exist? Possibly, but one usually trusts the doc and one seldom thinks that the doc is getting a kickback from Big Pharma for every prescription of a new drug.
Your "Free Choice" model is laughable. What you're proposing amounts to suggesting that we all become doctors and self-medicate. It's the weasel way of America where no professional is trusted any more because the Law of America is that everyone is looking out for #1 and that ain't you. It's an anti-social and inhuman system. And I'm all too glad I'm not part of it.
June 23rd, 2007 at 2:29 pm#235
What questions? All you've posted is a bunch of insults.
June 23rd, 2007 at 2:32 pmm12, don’t be a jackass! If a doctor tells you you should have your tonsils or your appendix out, what do you do? The most one can try is to get a second opinion. But a doctor is in a position of trust. If a doctor advises something, you tend to consider it an expert opinion. We don’t often think the doc is a leech trying to pay for that expensive divorce, do we?
Sounds like the used car salesman. "We don't sell lemons, promise!"
When you see the doc and he prescribes a drug, do you question the need for the drug? Do you demand to know the side-effect statistics? Do you demand to know what cheaper generics exist? Possibly, but one usually trusts the doc and one seldom thinks that the doc is getting a kickback from Big Pharma for every prescription of a new drug.
Shrug. If you don't do your research on expensive purchases, you are going to get ripped off. Or, more accurately, the insurance company is going to get ripped off. But people really don't care about that.
June 23rd, 2007 at 2:35 pmm12, it’s not free healthcare. There’s nothing honest about that misrepresentation. It’s universal healthcare paid for by a progressive income tax. The average America will actually have more coverage for less money under such a system. The rich can still opt for specialized care. And the poor can get the treatment they need without becoming homeless or dying in the gutter. (I know, you probably think that’s the domain of Christian charity, but somehow I get the impression that you are neither Christian nor charitable.)
Well, I guess we have another honest person here. Is there any point where the rich have paid enough taxes?
June 23rd, 2007 at 2:39 pmm12 -- Sorry, playing dumb will not get you off the hook. Since you obviously need special assistance, please consider the following portions of Posts #192 and #224...
"The issue you were responding to on Post #224 was health care insurers. Like most Reich Wing Goebbels wannabes, you change the subject to doctors." You have no response to the matter of changing the subject from health care insurers to doctors.
So, are you auditioning to fill in for Hannity when he is on vacation?
Although you'd probably construe this as a compliment, you had no response to this question.
"And, also, while you are at it, please provide an answer to the question I raised in Post #192." From Post #192-- "So, if the United States has the best health care in the world, can anyone name any other industrialized countries that have replaced their “inferior†system with one similar to ours? After all, imitation is the sincerest form of flattery."
So, are you going to ignore these questions or change the subject again?
June 23rd, 2007 at 2:40 pm#240
See post 232.
June 23rd, 2007 at 2:51 pm#192, if our healthcare sysytem is so bad, why are people in all the other countries who DON'T emulate our healthcare system running to come here for healthcare?
June 23rd, 2007 at 3:21 pmThe United States of America has the best healthcare in the world. Not sure why you would want to destroy it because it is economically based and allows people choice.
Giving everyone bad health care i.e. socialized medicine is a laughable solution brought about because people between the ages of eigthteen and 35 would rather buy beer than health insurance.
When Moore has his stroke or heart attack in the next few months any bets on where he goes for treatement?
June 23rd, 2007 at 3:23 pm#241 -- Health care for those in this country who are extremely wealthy is pretty good. Some who are exceedingly rich in other countries may choose to come here for "Cadillac" treatment, which is beyond the reach of all but the upper 1% income-wise. So, do you have documentation of lower to middle income citizens of other countries coming here for medical treatment as well? If so, please cite your source(s).
June 23rd, 2007 at 3:27 pmm12, you really make very poor points.
As has been pointed out here, the HMOs do not offer the best healthcare to their customers, but the least expensive. It may not be what the doctor thought was necessary and may be detrimental to a patients health in the long term.
In our highly specialized age of information, what research do you expect a patient to do beyond the most rudimentary? It is hard to work on my own car because so much is done by computer these days. We rely heavily on trust. Which is why the crimes of Enron and WorldCom were so heinous-- these guys demanded trust and claimed the Free Market as their regulator, but, in reality, they were con artists and fraudsters.
The Rich today pay far less in proportional taxes than the Rich of the Eisenhower Era. Indeed, the Rich today seem to be experts at ripping off their shareholders as well as the public and the government. I have little sympathy for people who make obscene amount of money without the checks of the market place. (Come on, do you really think I could not find a top notch administrator for less than $5 million a year?)
June 23rd, 2007 at 3:31 pm#241 -- While you are at it, perhaps you could also cite the sources for stories about busloads of Mexican and Canadians citizens coming to the United States to purchase pharmaceuticals?
June 23rd, 2007 at 3:32 pmIn a public health care system, the doctors, nurses, janitors and administrators all need to be paid every Friday so the only point at which costs can be controlled is through the patient, by restricting access. If you go to an American doctor with a monstrous lump on your shoulder, it's in his economic interest to find out what it is and get it whipped off as soon as possible. If you go to a British or Canadian doctor, it's in the system's economic interest to postpone it as long as possible. And because the public will only sit around on waiting lists for two or three years, eventually in order to control costs you have to claw it out of other budgets - like Defense. Socialized health care is the biggest cause not just of the infantilization of the citizenry but of the state.
On the former point, the unloveliness of any British city after six in the evening - the dolly birds staggering around paralytic, the pools of "pavement pizza", the baying yobboes gagging for a shag and hurling bollards through the bus shelters to impress the crumpet - is a natural consequence of what happens when the state relieves the citizen of primal responsibilities.
As for the fact that 50% of people outside London are either on the dole or working for the government, I'd bet it's even higher in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. If I were a Londoner, I'd be in favor of seceding from the United Kingdom and going it alone as the Hong Kong of Europe.--Mark Steyn.
June 23rd, 2007 at 3:32 pmThere currently is a guess-tament that there are twelve million illegal aliens in the United States most of them from Mexico I do believe they are most likely buying American pharma products.
June 23rd, 2007 at 3:34 pmMoore's new propaganda movie should do for socialized medicine what his last two did for the war in Iraq and gun control.
June 23rd, 2007 at 3:37 pmActually, Douglas G and Frank J, healthcare is better in Britain for both rich and poor than it is in America. And certainly better in the EU overall.
You would need to offer me some examples to prove your case. I suspect what you meant to say is why do so many foreigners in system that DO emulate the American model come to America for their healthcare. Now, that one is easy to answer. Because American foreign policy has destroyed the infrastruction and social amenities that professional need. That is why so many Iraqi doctors have fled their country. It is nearly impossible for an Iraqi to find a doctor thanks to the American occupation.
June 23rd, 2007 at 3:39 pmBritish healthcare is far worse than American for this example.
In a public health care system, the doctors, nurses, janitors and administrators all need to be paid every Friday so the only point at which costs can be controlled is through the patient, by restricting access. If you go to an American doctor with a monstrous lump on your shoulder, it’s in his economic interest to find out what it is and get it whipped off as soon as possible. If you go to a British or Canadian doctor, it’s in the system’s economic interest to postpone it as long as possible. And because the public will only sit around on waiting lists for two or three years, eventually in order to control costs you have to claw it out of other budgets - like Defense. Socialized health care is the biggest cause not just of the infantilization of the citizenry but of the state.
June 23rd, 2007 at 3:42 pm.
June 23rd, 2007 at 3:45 pmFrank J -- Looks like m12's shift is over and now its your turn. You must be assuming that illegal aliens (your term) from Mexico have the money to pay to see a physician in the first place (without the cost reductions enjoyed by those with group health insurance), which is needed to obtain a prescription which will be similarly overpriced. If these illegal immigrants have jobs that are lucrative enough for them to live here, pay full freight for health care, and still send money home, many of the 46 million individuals in this country who are uninsured would surely be interested in applying for these jobs. As a public service, why don't you identify where these jobs can be found? And, again where are the sources supporting your supposition that illegal aliens are buying American pharma products?
June 23rd, 2007 at 3:50 pmFrank J
Except it isn't.
They have to pay the nurse and doctor anyway - whether you get better quickly or not. It's in the doctor's interests to get the lump out as quickly as possible so as to avoid it spreading and thus giving them more work.
June 23rd, 2007 at 3:51 pmThe original story for these postings is that of the health insurance industry and big pharma starting a smear campaign against the Michael Moore's film. There are a number of people posting on this site who must surely be on the payrolls of these groups -- and those individuals should be obvious to anyone perusing these posts.
June 23rd, 2007 at 3:55 pmFrank J, I wouldn't quote that little neo-con Canadian weasel Mark Steyn. He's a notorious liar. Note how he pretends to know the British lingo even though his a little neo-Nazi sh!t from Toronto who was shipped off to a British boarding school but couldn't hack it and dropped out.
He now works Lord Black of Crossharbour --that fellow on trial for defrauding his shareholders in Chicago. And he really does his best to defend his former master Conrad. I wouldn't trust anything that idiot has to say. He makes up facts and never admits to having made mistakes.
And he has written too books: a history of musical comedy and one about the end of civilization. It makes sense, doesn't it.
June 23rd, 2007 at 3:56 pmWhat about the Rand Corporation? They have employed Jesse Malkin, husband of Michelle, who now has her knickers in a twist over Sicko. Rand represents several pharmaceutical and health care companies. Jesse Malkin has produced reports for Rand on such topics as medical savings accts and controlling costs of pharmaceuticals for veterans. Michelle in her inimatlble, (noxious) way is now evicerating Moore on her Hot Air site, and all her well insured readers are defending the system. I think Michelle should be forced to admit full disclosure....she and Jesse have a vested interest in maintaining the health care status quo. It's part of their bread and butter.
June 23rd, 2007 at 7:19 pmMichael Moore is a controversy artist, and I love it! This movie is going to rock the country. I can't wait!
June 23rd, 2007 at 9:03 pmThese are the same pharmaseutical (Sorry, I don't give a shit to spell it right at this point) companies that because they're so desperate for profits (UGH!) that they BAN natural-cures from actually telling you what they cure.
I really need to get those books NOW because I have a feeling in a few years they'll be banned completely.
At this point, I'm really going to have to say it: "*Beep* Capitalism." (Censor is mine)
June 23rd, 2007 at 11:01 pmAmericans in Canada prefer US Healthcare.
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/story.html?id=c1c55309-756a-4c4a-a032-a1968442a1f7&k=77424
OTTAWA - Americans living in Canada prefer the U.S. health-care system for speed, quality and diagnostic technology, says a new study. But they also applaud the equity and cost-effectiveness of Canada's system. And in the final analysis, 40 per cent prefer the Canadian system.
The study, released Wednesday in the online medical journal Open Medicine, was based on the responses of 310 Americans living in Canada between two and five years, mostly in Vancouver, Calgary and Toronto.
There have been many studies that compare the two health-care systems, but this is likely the first time the Canadian and U.S. systems have been compared based on the perceptions of consumers who have experienced both.
How can this be? According to the lefties that hate our nation, this is impossible.
June 23rd, 2007 at 11:24 pmCopy and paste the text beginning from Hello and place it in an email.
Send this email to
john.boehner@mail.house.gov
and webmaster@rpc.senate.gov
the Republican senate policy committee.
Hello
Get your Republican party to end the war by Dec. 2007, and until you do we stop buying televisions, refrigerators, stoves, ovens, dishwashers, dvd players, stereo equipment, light bulbs from one of your party's major contributors and War contractors General Electric Corporation ( 203 373 2211 ) who cannot afford to lose a large sector of the publics business and money.
Get your Republican party to enact HR 676 into law by Dec. 2007 and repeal Medicare Part D and place the prescription drug benefit in Medicare Part B covering 80 percent of medication with no extra premiums, deductibles no means tests, no coverage gaps, and until you do, we will not buy consumer products and prescription drugs from the biggest 3 pharmacy chains and GOP contributors in the country Eckerd, CVS, and Walgreens and we will not buy health insurance from Blue Cross Blue Shield and Aetna, the 2 biggest health insurance companies that give money to the GOP as well, who cannot afford to lose a large sector of the publics business and money.
Get your Republican party to enact a $10 an hour minimum wage by Dec. 2007, and until you do, we will not go to the following restaurants and GOP contributors Wendy's, Outback Steakhouse, Olive Garden, Red Lobster, and Dominos Pizza who cannot afford to lose a large sector of the publics business and money.
Get your Republican party to enact into law Universal vote by mail with paper ballots counted by civil servants with civil servants registering voters and keeping track of registrations by Dec. 2007, and until you do, we will not buy any GOP contributor Dell computers or monitors or go to the following restaurants and GOP contributors Wendy's, Outback Steakhouse, Olive Garden, Red Lobster, and Dominos Pizza who cannot afford to lose a large sector of the publics business and money.
June 24th, 2007 at 12:44 amUnless you work for a MEGA MAJOR corporation, your insurance pretty well blows.
Smears may work for the people who have outstanding insurance, but how many of those are there these days?
Comment by MsJoanne — June 22, 2007 @ 7:09 pm
I have excellent insurance with my smallish local firm.
-------
I really need to get those books NOW because I have a feeling in a few years they’ll be banned completely.
Comment by jake3988 — June 23, 2007 @ 11:01 pm
What's been keeping em from being banned for the last 30 years? That drivel will always be with us.
June 24th, 2007 at 1:17 am------
I, for one, am looking forward to the year long waits for non-emergency surgery we have to look forward to when we copy Canada's system. And what ever came of the lawsuit by the Quebec man who needed hip replacement surgery and found out it was against Canadian law to pay for it privately even though he would have to go on a waiting list to get it through their socialized care system? Are we going to add that little gem to our system when we follow Canada's lead? ;)
I don't know if anyone here looks at the video clips on Glumbert.com, but I just recently finished out a long, long, argument/discussion on one of their threads, re: a video of a woman who died on the floor of a hospital in L.A., and the staff actually REFUSED to treat her; other people saw her vomitting blood in the waiting room, and actually called 911, pleading for them to send someone who WILL help. It's a horrendous, disturbing video. Anyways, a few Americans actually came out on this thread and STILL defended the profit-driven health care system in the U.S. Because of this, when I called them on it, some predictably called me "anti-American", "leftist", blah-blah-blah. Bottom line is this: the U.S. is a very rich nation, yet in terms of looking after the health and welfare of its citizens, the World Health Organization ranked it #37 for timely, quality health care; Costa Rica was #36; Slovenia was #38. France ranked #1. Canada (surprisingly) clocked in at #30. Although as a Canadian I know our own system isn't perfect, this study shows that it's still at least BETTER than a "for-profit-system". Does this make me "anti-American"? Nahhh, not at all. Not "anti-American" any more than any American who thinks George Bush and Dick Cheney are a couple of lying pricks.
Anyways, like I said, Glumbert.com....and check out the long, long thread.
It's a show-stopper.
Canuck1963
June 24th, 2007 at 4:37 amLook at this:
http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html
I think I'll let the right-wing idealogues chew on THAT for a while, 'cuz if THIS ain't a wake-up call for them, then NOTHING will be.
Canuck1963
June 24th, 2007 at 4:57 amReading about the problems with the National Health Service in the UK and the universal health service in Canada, I just couldn't help wondering what an infusion of cash would do to the problems of long waits in those places? Say something along the lines of a couple of months of what it costs to continue the occupation in Iraq?
June 24th, 2007 at 5:19 amReading about the problems with the National Health Service in the UK and the universal health service in Canada, I just couldn’t help wondering what an infusion of cash would do to the problems of long waits in those places? Say something along the lines of a couple of months of what it costs to continue the occupation in Iraq?
You want us to give cash to Canada?
June 24th, 2007 at 10:22 amMicharl, we are all lovin lookin on while handle the biggies. Right on!
June 24th, 2007 at 6:01 pmThe other day I was pointing out at the hospital where I work that we (the USA) is the only firstworld country that does not offer basic healthcare to all citizens.
I was roundly attacked for trying to spread commie-socalistic medicine. My fellow nurses went on at great lenght about how awful this would be.
Finally, I had to point out to them how ridiculous what they were saying was. We work in a Veteran's Admin hospital!! Virtually all of the nurses around the table were retired military & got their, and their families, healthcare for free at this very VA hospital!!
If the military, and the subsequent VA, healthcare systems are not 'socailistic' then the term has no meaning.
What they meant I guess, was that they did not want public healthcare for anyone else.
At least a couple could see that this was true. The rest just said "that's not the same. We EARNED our healthcare by SERVING". But, what they earned is precisely a (quite inefficient) socailized healthcare system: a system that is ALWAYS there for them, as it should be for all citizens.
Apparently, it is difficult to be a 'conservative', and not, of necessity, be a hippocrite.
June 24th, 2007 at 7:34 pmWell, just because organizations such as Cato receive funding from the insurance industry, it doesn't mean that their arguments should be dismissed out of hand. The Cato article "Sicko or Wacko" highlights the problems faced by the nationalized British and Canadian systems, and how Moore attempts to mislead the audience into believing that such problems are of no concern. While other industry-funded organizations may not take the balanced and nuanced approach that Cato takes, the points they make are still valid and should be considered in America's health care debate, and should not be brushed aside as a "smear campaign."
However, it is simply unacceptable and immoral for America--the wealthiest nation in the history of the world--to not provide health care for all its citizens. The rest of the industrialized world does; we must do as well. What good human beings would we be if we sit back and allow the uninsured and underinsured to get sick and die in this supposedly great nation?
I agree with Moore and the rest of the single-payer advocates that health care is a human right, and must be provided to all people regardless of the circumstances, regardless of the cost. However, how we achieve universal health care as fast as possible is a very important debate, and all facets of the issue must be explored rationally before we reform our health care system to ensure that all Americans have health care and are treated fairly.
And that noble goal can only be frustrated by the emotionalist and populist rhetoric on either side of the health care debate.
June 24th, 2007 at 9:29 pmRead the book "The Body Hunters" by Sonia Shah, with foreword by John Le Carre (author of "The Constant Gardener".)
Here's a portion of the forward:
" This book is an act of courage on the part of its author and its publisher. Ever since I wrote The Constant Gardener I have received approaches and sometimes complete typescripts, from investigative writers determined to lift the veil on the darker side of the world's most profitable trade: the pharmaceutical industry... Yet not one of the authors, so far as I was aware, saw his project realized. And if months later I delicately inquired why not, the answer, however wrapped up, was always the same: too risky."
The bottom line is this: the drug industry has no regard at all for either the poor 3rd world human beings they are currently testing 80% of their drugs on, has no interest in actually curing any of its many millions of end-users, or even in keeping them in general "good health".
There is very LITTLE, if any, INDUSTRY PROFIT in "good health". If everyone enjoyed good health, then obviously doctors, specialists, hospitals and above all the drug industry which supplies them, would quickly be out of business... No demand? No supply. Everyone KNOWS ya gotta create a HIGH DEMAND for a product in order to SELL IT AT A GOOD PROFIT.
That's why it does everything in its power, and its power is ENORMOUS, to debunk health practitioners who for the most part are not trained in "orthodox" medical schools which are all endowed by Big Business and Big Pharma. (Big Pharma donates ZERO dollars to schools who train Natural Medicine Practitioners. And why would they?)
"Alternative" health practitioners are vilified as "quacks" by most allopathic physicians because they ESCHEW drugs & surgery and instead tackle health issues at their ROOTS. They do not offer their patients chemical cocktails, but treat the whole patient, normally from the inside out with natural foods and vitamins and complete lifestyle or diet changes...
Parma drugs do nothing to "cure" common ailments like high blood pressure, high cholesterol, allergies and diseases caused by stress, improper diet & not enough physical exercise. Drugs will "suppress" or temporarily alleviate symptoms, thus keeping the disease in "check" while allowing people to continue to LIVE with the disease but ignore the root causes of disease and thus they can blithely continue to "enjoy" the lifestyle/diet which created all this dis-ease. Enriching BIG PHARMA and the orthodox medical community in the process... "Win-WIN" situation!
CURING affluent North Americans of dis-ease (*including Cancer) is obviously VERY BAD BUSINESS. (*and where's the money in alleviating the suffering in 3rd world countries? These people dying of AIDS and PARASITIC DYSENTERY can't AFFORD the pricetag of Big Pharma drugs. They can't even afford ELECTRICITY!)
"Controlling" North American/ European (*read "white people's) diseases indefinitely by prescribing & selling millions of daily doses of high-priced pharmaceutical cocktails is a much more LUCRATIVE BUSINESS, and Big Pharma happily cuts every cooperative golfer on their private course a nice little piece of their big FAT American Pie...
With regard to "modern medicine", just FOLLOW THE MONEY and see where it leads to...
June 24th, 2007 at 11:11 pmExcuse me, but I live in Nordic and I think m12 is full of sh!t.
As is the NY Times article he posted for that matter...Norway isn't even part of the European Union, let alone Euro, yet they have the world's highest living standard. How do you rebuke *that*?
June 25th, 2007 at 7:32 amLiberals constantly whine about unnecessary war, dependence on foreign oil, global warming, outsourcing of jobs, eroding civil liberties, politically motivated firings in the Justice Department, etc. When are they going take a serious look at the true villain? What about all the chaos and destruction wreaked by Michael Moore? Can’t they at least get it through their thick heads that the guy is FAT? Are they blind?
June 25th, 2007 at 11:52 amThe V.A works,
And that's why Bush and his cronies had to destroy it.
It is the Neocon philosophy that Government Dosen't Work.
They have done their best every day to make sure everything they do makes things worse for the average citizen.
June 25th, 2007 at 11:55 amMichael is on top of this one. Mr Brilliant out foxess the fox. And people will hear. And it will be good!
June 27th, 2007 at 8:24 pmJust why do they(the pharm/insurers) dislike this American sooo much? Is it because he commands the truth?
This is refreshing!
May the youngsters see this one. And I as well.
To Eric:
June 29th, 2007 at 2:04 pmShould quoting De Toqueville and Churchill awe us into agreement with you? Churchill was a warmongering Tory of aristocratic origin (no wonder he hated socialism!) who never met a war he didn't like, and was a ruthless imperialist who used poison gas, long before Saddam, against the Kurds. Only white Europeans, apparently, deserve democracy, and only insofar as the ruling elites decide it is OK. De Toqueville's study of Democracy in America, which I've read in the original, is a great work, and not always flattering to us. But Tocqueville also supported black slavery at a time when it was already being seriously questioned and indeed moving toward abolition grace à Wilberforce in England. Tocquevill approved of that abolition, but later service to French colonialism, including slavery, demonstrates that he is hardly an infallible Democrat, whatever he might self-proclaim.
Hats-off, to Michael Moore and SiCKO. The USA is the richest country in the free world, because of all the taxes the MAJORITY MIDDLE CLASS has to pay. Through charitable contributions, the wealthy pay virtually no tax. Corporations get huge tax breaks, credits, etc. from hiring minorities, and encouraging growth. They pay proportionately lower taxes than entire families! And for some of us who pay for worthless HMO coverage- stop wasting your money! So much red tape is involved, trying to cover as much as a broken toe. This is absurd. We are all getting ripped-off BLIND. Bottom-line is if we pay taxes, we should receive coverage provided by the government. I also agree government MUST be overhauled first, before this can ever happen. If we don't do that- then we are in for MORE of a shock, if government allows free coverage. I am hoping this film will ignite a movement of revolutionary proportions!
June 29th, 2007 at 4:28 pmAnyone who wants to know moer of the truth behind the mess we're in should read "Critical Condition: How Health Care in American Became Big Business and Bad Medicine" by Donald Steele and James Bartlett. Dry reading but an eye opener. Moore's film is a believable documentary to anyone who has ever experienced a serious illness or loss of health insurance. When my health insurance premium went to $650 under COBRA, I shopped for a better rate. One company turned me down because of pre-existing conditions. I decreased my coverage with my insurer and am saving $200 per month on the premium. HOWEVER, if I had not transferred my coverage within 60 days of ending the COBRA coverage, my premium would now be over $700 a month! And my insurer is very active in sponsoring an ice-skating rink, fireworks, theatre, etc. in Philadelphia. It's executives earn huge salaries. About 30 years ago, this insurer had administrative overhead costs of about 3%...I wonder what it is now! I resent my premium dollars going to support an ice rink, etc. Excess dollars should be returned to the subscribers in form of reduced premiums!
July 1st, 2007 at 10:38 amPlease excuse my typo in the previous post. The book is "How Health Care in America became....."
July 1st, 2007 at 10:40 amSicko is an enlightening and thought provoking film! In it, Moore does a fantastic job of exposing the shortcomings and downright failures of our system...
July 1st, 2007 at 3:31 pmBut did you know that there is already a Bill in the House that proposes a solution? Its called HR676: National Health Insurance Act and 70+ Reps have already signed on to it!
Go here: http://hr676.theunderrepresented.com/ to ask your rep to support this revolutionary legislation!
HR676 may not be the ultimate final answer to this massive problem, but we need to push Congress to continue the dialogue on this issue now!
I used to be with Kaiser and then I was with Blue Cross.
Now I am with Medicare, which is essentially national health care for seniors.
Now I can CHOOSE my doctors and not be limited to anybody's list.
Are there things I would change about Medicare? Sure. But basically it works WAY BETTER than the private insurance system.
When I had Blue Cross HMO I was limited to the doctors at two local clinics, including Stanford Clinic. Sounds impressive, but
I have gotten BETTER care by being able to pick doctors since I got on Medicare.
Since I got Medicare I got my thyroid cancer diagnosed after the docs on the Blue Cross list missed it. Got the source of my breathing problem diagnosed and greatly improved, after the HMO specialists were no help at all.
Comparing national health care to the DMV is misleading since you will be able to see the same doctors and go to the same hospitals you do now.
Besides, I have no problem with the DMV. Works fine--WAY better than the privately owned telephone company.
Granny Gail
July 3rd, 2007 at 1:50 amMoore's film exposes a system devised by the kind of person I call a "predatory leader". When someone takes action that will benefit them at the expense to others or while the action causes harm to others, that is a predatory action.
A predatory leader (in some cases, a sociopath) is a person who will do absolutely anything to gain power and control over others. To become a leader of an industry requires major efforts to get the results that will win them a position of power and profit. A sociopath has no conscience, therefore has no personal constraint against doing whatever it takes to achieve his goals. A person of conscience seeking advancement in the same organization will not stand a chance competing against the sociopath.
Our HMO system is designed to do one thing - deliver large profits to the owners/shareholders of the companies. By delivering minimal service or denying service to the paying customers, the profits are larger. These health companies are not run by people interested in helping heal people in need. Every expectation of their employees is about delivering profit under the guise of providing service. This is a system run by predatory leaders.
Mediatorguy
July 5th, 2007 at 1:31 pm