Texas screening of SiCKO inspires health care activism.
Texas screening of SiCKO inspires health care activism.
Boing Boing has a “first-hand account of a trip to see Michael Moore’s Sicko in a suburban mall in Dallas, in which the audience of conservative cowboys were converted to health-care activists“:
The entire Sicko audience had somehow formed an impromptu town hall meeting in front of the ladies room. I’ve never seen anything like it. This is Texas goddammit, not France or some liberal college campus. But here these people were, complete strangers from every walk of life talking excitedly about the movie. It was as if they simply couldn’t go home without doing something drastic about what they’d just seen. [...]
The talk gradually centered around a core of 10 or 12 strangers in a cluster while the rest of us stood around them listening intently to this thing that seemed to be happening out of nowhere. … The conversation stopped instantly as all eyes in this group of 30 or 40 people were now on him. “If we just see this and do nothing about it,” he said, “then what’s the point? Something has to change.” … Suddenly everyone was scribbling down everyone else’s email, promising to get together and do something …though no one seemed to know quite what.
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They can start by voting out Cornyn in ‘08!
July 5th, 2007 at 11:11 amWell, I’ve seen the pamphlets and books that fiercely debated the question of “socialized” medicine in Canada during the 1960s and it was plain that it was insurance and pharmaceutical companies that objected the most as they had the most to lose. All their arguments proved to be untrue or wildly exaggerated.
Frankly, I don’t see what has kept America from adopting this– other than you have the most easily corrupted political system. Single-payer universal healthcare just makes sense. And the arguments against are always ideological. (Namely, “Private good, Public bad.”)
July 5th, 2007 at 11:16 amPeople dont know what to do. The history of mankind.
July 5th, 2007 at 11:18 amthis made me smile… and even more hopefull about my city. Seriously you guys! signs of intelligent life can be found all throgh the Dallas metroplex! you just have to peel away that first layer of government officials who are in a word… useless
July 5th, 2007 at 11:19 amI sent this Josh Tyler article to a coworker, who sent it to her friend. Turns out that friend sent it to her friend who was in fact Sicko’s editor. He wrote back that this article made his day, because the audience response it describes was precisely the intention behind the film.
July 5th, 2007 at 11:20 am“first-hand account of a trip to see Michael Moore’s Sicko in a suburban mall in Dallas, in which the audience of conservative cowboys were converted to health-care activists“:
Yeah, well, ummmmmm, Michael Moore lies, and he, ummmmmm, well….ummm, you see, ummmmmmm, oh yeah, he’s fat, too!
July 5th, 2007 at 11:20 amCue idiot troll comment regarding how the recent Walter Reed debacle somehow equates to an indictment of socialized medicine in 3…2…1…
July 5th, 2007 at 11:21 am#7: When you say “libtard,” it’s like advertising that you have the mind of an 11-year-old.
July 5th, 2007 at 11:23 amDon’t feed…
Conservatron/valintthehater/President Clinton
July 5th, 2007 at 11:24 amConservatron, you’re a big fan of the Spanish healthcare system, are ya?
July 5th, 2007 at 11:26 am#12: If you hate the government so much, why don’t you move to a country that doesn’t have one?
July 5th, 2007 at 11:29 amComment by Conservatron — July 5, 2007 @ 11:21 am
Yes , it’s Michael Moore’s “fault” that the US healthcare system is a travesty ; therefore , he should donate millions to repair his colossal screw-up………………
Just as soon as Chimpy and his garbage administration(along with PNAC , and all the wrong wingnut punditry) pony up all their cash for the illegal and idiotic decision to invade Iraq……..
July 5th, 2007 at 11:30 amConservatron, you’re a big fan of the Spanish healthcare system, are ya?
Comment by Marge N. Overa — July 5, 2007 @ 11:26 am
I am neither a fan or against it. I just find it quite ironc and amusing that for all the Libtards in the USA to say that Cuba’s healthcare system, doctors, etc are so great, Castro didn’t allow Cuban doctors or healthcare system to touch him.
What does he know that you Libtards don’t know?
furthermore, as always Michael Moore’s is misleading. He talks about the healthcare system in Cuba being so great because the sell out Americans that he took to Cuba were treated so well and received medical aid that they weren’t going to receive in the USA.
1) he doesn’t tell you that Castro has set up especial clinics in Cuba for the idiotic filthy rich tourists that go to Cuba to make it seem that his healthcare system is great.
2) This medical services are not available to your average, run of the mill Cuban. They have to be content with subpar medical services.
Only Libtards are blind enough to not see past Michael Moore’s propaganda. I pity you Libtards, I truly do.
July 5th, 2007 at 11:31 amI’ll only be interested in someone’s opinion of Sicko or of Michael Moore AFTER they’ve seen the movie.
July 5th, 2007 at 11:31 amyou guys just can’t be this stupid, human beings can’t be as stupid and pathetic as the Libtards of America. It impossible.
Comment by Conservatron — July 5, 2007 @ 11:27 am
Sure they can ; and there is much more stupid that exists.
It’s called the 20%’ers aka those who voted for Chimpy twice , and continue to support his stupid , useless ass……….
July 5th, 2007 at 11:32 amNotice that idiot Conservatron has big opinions on a movie he has never seen.
Similar to all the people that call themselves Christians, yet have never actually read the Bible themselves, but listen to some idiot at a pulpit telling them what to believe.
No credibility at all.
July 5th, 2007 at 11:32 amWhy do conserva-tards hate the truth?
Because it goes against the neo-con marching orders.
July 5th, 2007 at 11:34 amI’m ready for The American Revolution II
July 5th, 2007 at 11:35 amThank you for this story. This is American democracy at its best. I am encouraged that we may yet pull this country out of the toilet.
July 5th, 2007 at 11:36 amThere is one thing we can do. Vote in a veto proof congress in 08, even if a centrist Dem becomes president, we can get shit done.
July 5th, 2007 at 11:36 amNational Healthcare will be Issue#2, right behind immediate withdrawal from Iraq.
Don’t feed…
Conservatron/valintthehater/President Clinton
Comment by Crump’s Brother
Thanks CB, I almost fell off the wagon! Whew…
July 5th, 2007 at 11:36 am“conservative cowboys were converted to health-care activists”
“Normal” Americans are thirsty for the truth which they’ll never get fron the Corporate Right slanted news.
July 5th, 2007 at 11:36 amI think my sarcastic post #6 summarizes post #7 well.
Also please note that this morning I “perused” other threads from yesterday. I applaud those who completely ignored the ever name changing troll. He/she/it looked absolutely silly posting inane comments. Hell, it was actually pre-schoolish the way it strived for attention, yet never received any.
July 5th, 2007 at 11:37 amI am always open to healthy debate, but when troglydytes open their post by typing “Libtards” or “Islamostalinist”, they’re not here to debate, just disrupt.
Please respond accordingly!
#16: Your bilious, barely-coherent rage at your fellow citizens must make your life miserable. If the U.S, had public health care, you could get free therapy for your psychological problems, you know.
Comment by Arthur C. — July 5, 2007 @ 11:36 am
Ah , he’s just pissed off that Michael Moore has talent and guts.
These Chimpy jock sniffers are mindless , complicit little sheep…….
July 5th, 2007 at 11:38 ammost highly ignorant users of oxygen on the planet…….
Comment by MCMetal
I’d like a little proof that some of these trolls are actually breathing…
July 5th, 2007 at 11:38 am“If we just see this and do nothing about it,†he said, “then what’s the point? Something has to change.†… Suddenly everyone was scribbling down everyone else’s email, promising to get together and do something …though no one seemed to know quite what.
They’ll figure it out! I know they’ll go to Michael Moore’s website for more info, and they’ll see ideas on what they can do.
Wow — Texas! Fantastic!!
July 5th, 2007 at 11:38 amYou know, trolls, you are now in the minority, especially on this issue. If you truly want people to see things your way, you might want to start without the condescention and calling people names. YOU are the ones who now have to do the convincing and I’m sorry to tell you but this is not the so-called radical position.
Yours is.
July 5th, 2007 at 11:38 amConservatron: I am calling you out as a liar. I want statistics as to the number of Canadians, British, France and other countries with socialized medicine coming to the United States for treatment. I also want to know your source for the statistics.
Conservatron: Next I want you to prove that the overall health of US citizens is higher in the US than in countries with socialized medicine. I think we can agree on some common measurements such as infant mortality rate, longevity ect. You know the kind of statistics that WHO uses to determine how a country’s health system is working. But we all know how those measurements are going to come out.
Conservatron: You are an unthinking fool. You are the usual idiot that the insurance companies and others are looking for to support their profits. May you die soon after an insurance company conducts a retroactive review of your policy and wrongly denies you coverage in order to save a few bucks. We will all be there to laugh at your funeral.
July 5th, 2007 at 11:38 amNotice that idiot Conservatron has big opinions on a movie he has never seen.
Similar to all the people that call themselves Christians, yet have never actually read the Bible themselves, but listen to some idiot at a pulpit telling them what to believe.
No credibility at all.
Comment by Wayne — July 5, 2007 @ 11:32 am
BWAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!! I love it how you Libtards assume I haven’t seen this movie.
you poor Libtards, keep on assuming my Libtards. It is just fun to see how stupid you guys are.
Amazing that you guys can be fooled by such a propagandist. The fat boy tells you imbeciles to jump and you all ask in unison, where from Mr. Michael Moore?
poor retards. Poor, poor retards.
You guys are too blind to realize that this fat boy, who speaks about over consumption of our society, (more irony, don’t you think, a fat boy talking about over consumption in America), who speaks against capitalism, has made his millions through capitalism and through the overconsumption of Libtards.
poor, poor Libtars. I love how easy it is to manipulate the left wing in America. It just shows the group think mentality that is so prevelant amongst Libtard groups. sad don’t you imbeciles think?
July 5th, 2007 at 11:38 amWho’s being fooled by propaganda? Pathetic.
July 5th, 2007 at 11:40 amThen they can all take a jump from a cliff for being such pathetic, idiotic, easily fooled, easily manipulated, easily moronic individuals.
Comment by Conservatron — July 5, 2007 @ 11:21 am
Paid troll, big pharm/healthcare employee or just plain dumb. I’m not sure which. For easily fooled, easily manipulated, you only need look in a mirror if you think our healthcare system is in any way acceptable.
There is a reason that AMERICANS take vacations to places like Thailand for major surgeries. When you can get major surgery from top tier doctors and get a 6 week recovery period at a 5 star resort and still save money over what is done here, that should be telling you something. Of course, part of this is linked to the corrupt insurance/litigation mess we have here.
Yours is just a pathetic attempt to shoot the messenger.
July 5th, 2007 at 11:40 amZooey,
“Thanks CB, I almost fell off the wagon! Whew…”
Yeah me too. I had written a long rant totally making a fool out of the poor moron, but I thought better of posting it.
There’s no helping some.
July 5th, 2007 at 11:40 amOK, so we are hoping they treat everyone as well as they have treated the vets in the healthcare system for the last 40 years.
July 5th, 2007 at 11:41 amI haven’t seen SiCKo yet, so I can’t comment on the movie itself. But I can comment on the state of health care in America. The system is broken and it needs to be fixed before even more people fall through the cracks.
Every “solution” I have seen so far just amounts to shoring up the system with a little more duct tape — a few tax credits here, a few prescription drug cards there.
The basic system we have in this country is health care insurance provided by employers. Or at least employers who are big enough to afford it. These employers must raise the cost of their goods and services to cover the cost of benefits to their employees. And more and more employers drop company-paid health insurance (either dropping it altogether or replacing it with the opportunity for the employee to pay for it 100% out of their pocket) as the rates skyrocket. And rates skyrocket when for-profit health care companies and pharmaceutical companies need to rake in more and more money to pay for their advertising, lobbying, and to keep their stock price up.
End result? EVERYBODY winds up paying — through increased prices — for the bloated budgets of providers that provide for fewer and fewer people. Uninsured people don’t get any preventative care, and use the most expensive care available (emergency rooms) when they do finally get too sick to function — creating a bigger burden on those who CAN pay. Even the most diehard free-marketer can see there has to be a better way.
Yes — it can be said that Michael Moore is fat. And white. And rich. But that’s just distraction away from the real issue.
July 5th, 2007 at 11:42 amPlease explain what in the movie is propaganda.
July 5th, 2007 at 11:43 amI disagree. I think it’s obvious that that person hates his/her life and is an echo-chamber of self-loathing; so much so, that he is willing to spend vast amounts of energy trying to make other people feel even worse than he/she does. It’s transparently pathetic.
July 5th, 2007 at 11:43 amComment by Conservatron — July 5, 2007 @ 11:38 am
I see that , instead of answering the question of whether or not you actually saw Moore’s movie , you kept on prattling on with your insipid and pointless rant.
So , did you see the movie or not , skid mark ?
A simple ‘yes’ or ‘no’ , will more than suffice………
July 5th, 2007 at 11:44 amOK, so we are hoping they treat everyone as well as they have treated the vets in the healthcare system for the last 40 years.
Comment by Tundra
Are you saying you think it has to be that or keep doing the same thing we’re doing now?
Don’t be silly.
July 5th, 2007 at 11:44 amI couldn’t be more dumb.
It’s obvious that for profit health care doesn’t work. 18000 people die each year because they don’t have access to insurance.
Not that I care about people dying. I support death in all its forms. Especially if it helps me!
Who cares if kids have to stay home from school with earaches that their parents can’t take them to the doctor for? Compassion is for pussies!!!
July 5th, 2007 at 11:44 amConservatron: I am calling you out as a liar. I want statistics as to the number of Canadians, British, France and other countries with socialized medicine coming to the United States for treatment. I also want to know your source for the statistics.
Comment by JMOHR
Big mistake. You just asked FACTS to a troll. It´s like salt to a slob.
July 5th, 2007 at 11:45 amMethinks conservation might actually be a liberal in disguise
July 5th, 2007 at 11:47 amAre you saying you think it has to be that or keep doing the same thing we’re doing now?
I’m saying that they haven’t gotten it right yet. I want them to fix what they already have responsibility for before going on to save everyone.
If Michael Moore had made $14.32 in box office receipts on his first movie would you give him $30 Million to make the next one? Sure the idea sounds great on paper, but they haven’t shown they can do it.
July 5th, 2007 at 11:48 amConservatron is making fun of so-called “libtards” for assuming he/she/it has’t seen the movie, yet never comes right out and says “I’ve seen the movie.” So, have you seen the movie Conservatron? If not, then your opinions mean nothing to this thread.
As for me, I’m thankful that more people are willing to reevaluate our horrendous heath care system…especially people from Bush’s home state.
July 5th, 2007 at 11:51 amNot that I care about people dying. I support death in all its forms. Especially if it helps me!
Comment by Conservatron — July 5, 2007 @ 11:44 am
If that is truly how you feel , I’d be more than happy to beat you to death ; that would solve all your problems , as well as set off a grand celebration across the globe …..What a douchebag
July 5th, 2007 at 11:51 amComment by Conservatron
your comments prove you have not seen the movie, because you don’t know sh*t about the actual movie.
If you saw it, your mommy must have given you a bottle to make you shut up and sleep so everyone else could see it without your whinning and crying.
Also, lets see you cite your sources for your idiotic claims ( hint: your ass is not a credible source )
July 5th, 2007 at 11:51 amOr is namecalling the only thing you can post
I saw SiCKO. It was well done. While I don’t agree with everything in the film, the overall statement on our for-profit health care system was right on.
I’ve found some level of respect for M. Moore. Indeed, pigs do in fact fly.
July 5th, 2007 at 11:53 amI have a friend who is Irish. She has Leukimia and gets treatment in the USA since she lives here. Ireland pays her bills. She loves the Irish socialized medical system. Especially since she had to quit work for six months while she was sealed away in a hospital room with no contact with anybody (her immune system was totally shot) while she recovered. Can you imagine doing that and then being given a $200,000 bill? She didn’t have to. Ireland paid for it.
Moral of the story: Even when foreigners who get socialized medicine have to get it in the USA (whether because some hospital has some new whiz-bang treatment, or whether they are just here for other reasons like my friend), they still get better treatment (in terms of money) than us nativers.
July 5th, 2007 at 11:54 am-49 Million without healthcare insurance
-thousands if needless deaths per year
Private healthcare is a failure
July 5th, 2007 at 11:55 am———————————-
Start a War, cut funding for Veterans Healthcare. Begin privatization with contracts to cronies who don’t live up to their contracts resulting in extremely poor care. Then say social medicine is a failure. PATHETIC
Nothing will happen, Americans loves bombs more than health care
July 5th, 2007 at 11:56 amWe’re getting universal healthcare because we demand it. Now STFU, you don’t run this country anymore.
July 5th, 2007 at 11:56 amI’m saying that they haven’t gotten it right yet. I want them to fix what they already have responsibility for before going on to save everyone.
Comment by Tundra
Everyone must suffer under this hopelessly broken system until we get it right, dammit!
Please….
July 5th, 2007 at 11:59 amI saw SiCKO. It was well done. While I don’t agree with everything in the film, the overall statement on our for-profit health care system was right on.
I’ve found some level of respect for M. Moore. Indeed, pigs do in fact fly.
Comment by Patrick1 — July 5, 2007 @ 11:53 am
Wow. Thanks for saying that, Patrick1.
Amazing — flying pigs….
July 5th, 2007 at 12:01 pmThe deputy smelled marijuana and searched the car, said sheriff’s spokesman Jim Amormino. The search turned up a small amount of marijuana, along with prescription drugs including Valium, Xanax, Vicodin, Adderall and Soma. There were no prescriptions found, he said.
———————————————————————————
A walking pharmacist he is…
Rush Limbaugh move over baby….
July 5th, 2007 at 12:03 pmPatrick1,
Perhaps you can be saved after all. :)
July 5th, 2007 at 12:04 pmI am a cancer survivor and also own my own small business, with less than 5 employees. I have tried for the past 2 years to get health insurance and have been turned down by 3 companies and 1 said they would cover me, with about a page of exceptions and would only charge me $1078/month for just me. And that with a $2500 annual deduction and also a $35 copay per visit.
This is after I have been cleared by my Doctors of all cancer and am in perfect health now.
I had a minor health event in Europe last month, went to hospital in Zurich and had the best treatment I have had in an emergency room in my life: Quick, efficient and CHEAP! Everyone I talked to in Switzerland, Prague and Germany feel they have the best health care in the world and most couldn’t understand why we are so far behind the curve.
Wonder if Conservatron/Numbnuts would feel the same way about our healthcare system if he/she was in my shoes. But then, he/she probably is still covered by mom’s insurance and lives in her basement, too.
July 5th, 2007 at 12:08 pmComment by Conservatron
your comments prove you have not seen the movie, because you don’t know sh*t about the actual movie.
If you saw it, your mommy must have given you a bottle to make you shut up and sleep so everyone else could see it without your whinning and crying.
Also, lets see you cite your sources for your idiotic claims ( hint: your ass is not a credible source )
Or is namecalling the only thing you can post
Comment by Wayne — July 5, 2007 @ 11:51 am
hahahah, but you cite a pathetic movie, made by a pathetic fat man, who loves using puppets like you.
a man that screams and cries against capitalism, yet he has made his millions through capitalism
Wayne, give it up, my easily fooled puppet. Just go ask Michael Moore what you should say next. In the mean time, please, please try to sound somewhat intelligent and independent, ok?
you aren’ t doing any favors to yourself or your Libtard movements by writing what Michael Moore has ordered you to write.
July 5th, 2007 at 12:10 pm#46 – “I’ve found some level of respect for M. Moore. Indeed, pigs do in fact fly.” Comment by Patrick1 — July 5, 2007 @ 11:53 am
Who are you, and what have you done with Patrick!?!?! ;-)
Rush Limbaugh has been sighted on a plane, so I guess pigs to in fact “fly”.
I haven’t seen the movie as of yet, so I’ll refrain from commenting on the movie until such time as I’ve viewed it.
July 5th, 2007 at 12:10 pmThis look at U.S. health care by the numbers includes comparisons of the American health care system relative to other countries and between the states, plus data on the uninsured, rising health care costs, the woes of Medicare and Medicaid and more.
For all the details, see:
July 5th, 2007 at 12:12 pm“SiCKO Required Reading: U.S. Health Care by the Numbers.”
Please someone, tell me what to think, how to think it, and when to think it.
I tried calling Pelosi’s office but it looks like she is on vacation. I tried Boxer’s office, but she too is on vacation. I feel empty, lonely, and in dire need to be told by my progressive gods what to think, and how to think it.
I want to spew venom against AmeriKKKa, I must praise the terrorists and call them freedom fighters and compare them to George Washington and the other hypocrites of the revolutionay war.
I am lost without Michael Moore telling me what to think. I hope he mades hundreds of more movies.
July 5th, 2007 at 12:12 pmThere were protest banners on highway overhangs in Dallas this morning, too (over the Libby crap).
July 5th, 2007 at 12:23 pmHas anyone besides myself noticed that our resident trolls typically have the grammar skills of a 6 year old?
Why is that?
July 5th, 2007 at 12:25 pmI don’t believe this story a bit. I think it’s been made up. I would need to see pictures of this, because it sounds phony. I lived in Texas and people don’t behave this way. In fact, with the exception of certain places on the West Coast, I don’t think this ’story’ would happen anywhere.
July 5th, 2007 at 12:27 pmyou aren’ t doing any favors to yourself or your Libtard movements by writing what Michael Moore has ordered you to write.
Comment by conservatron
Funny, because no one tells me what to say or write.
The movie points out the outragiousness of the American health system.
And I am no nessesarily a fan of all of Moore’s movies. “Bowling for Columbine”, frankly bored me to death and I definately did not agree with all of Moore’s views in that one
And you have no idea of whether I am a liberal, moderate or what.
July 5th, 2007 at 12:32 pmYour name calling just points out that you have no argument.
To #58 IamaLiberal:
Of course I can see you’re being satirical, but others may take you seriously, so this response is more for them.
There’s a big difference between being told what to think and being inspired to think. The group of Dallas movie-goers were obviously inspired to think. And act. While they may not have come up with any revolutionary ideas immediately following the movie, they at least recognized the need to do so.
Compare this with your basic dittohead who is told what to think. He winds up only capable of parroting Rush soundbites and eventually loses all talent for original thought.
July 5th, 2007 at 12:33 pm61. I came out of the theater to just this kind of thing. It was a murmur, but people were definitely motivated. They didn’t organize right there but they sure did seem angry enough to do something about it. This is going to happen.
July 5th, 2007 at 12:33 pmHas anyone besides myself noticed that our resident trolls typically have the grammar skills of a 6 year old?
Why is that?
Comment by kelso — July 5, 2007 @ 12:25 pm
I know, I know why!!! because they need to write in a matter that us, the poor Liberals will understand.
If they use proper grammand and proper spelling we will not be able to understand what they write. So they have to dumb down their post for us Liberals. Isn’t compassionate conservatism great?
thank you conservatives and other trolls.
July 5th, 2007 at 12:33 pmEveryone must suffer under this hopelessly broken system until we get it right, dammit!
Please….
Comment by Zooey — July 5, 2007 @ 11:59 am
Or they could reign in the drug companies/insurance companies provide caps. Give memberships out to health clubs, vaccinate everyone (Which they couldn’t handle). There are many other options besides throwing everyone’s healthcare at a group of people who cannot do it.
Your argument is like,
July 5th, 2007 at 12:34 pmYou: Mcar is broken, my nephew has to fix it.
Me: Why, he only fixed a bicycle once.
You: What am I supposed to do leave it broken, Please!!
To #58 IamaLiberal:
Of course I can see you’re being satirical, but others may take you seriously, so this response is more for them.
There’s a big difference between being told what to think and being inspired to think. The group of Dallas movie-goers were obviously inspired to think. And act. While they may not have come up with any revolutionary ideas immediately following the movie, they at least recognized the need to do so.
Compare this with your basic dittohead who is told what to think. He winds up only capable of parroting Rush soundbites and eventually loses all talent for original thought.
Comment by missmolly — July 5, 2007 @ 12:33 pm
No, no you have it wrong. Conservatives are inspired to think, we Liberals are told how to think, when to think it and where to think it.
You know as well as I do, since I am a Liberal, that there exists a huge group tink mentality in our movements. Furthermore, we love demonizing and humiliating those that dare question us. Those that have not bought into the propaganda of our party and left wing leaders are insulted, humiliated, etc.
Look how we call a homophobe anyone that dares say that homosexuality is wrong.
Look how we call a liar and poor human being anyone that doesn’t agree with us.
c’mon we know that we LIberals can’t think on our own, we must be told what to think, how to think it, when to think it, and where.
We Liberals don’t have that great of an immagination. Groupthink is our name. you know it and I know it.
July 5th, 2007 at 12:37 pmIamLiberal=Conservatron=President Clinton=valiantthehater
DON’T FEED THE IDIOT!
July 5th, 2007 at 12:38 pmI am good at banjo, and shooting
I enjoy walks through the park and high crime rates.
Tax deferrals are where it is at.
I have no education to speak of, and I make fun of those who do.
Being smart is for dumb libruls.
July 5th, 2007 at 12:41 pmAsk a Canadian if they would give up their health care card to participate in the U.S. system. I can predict the answer: NO!
July 5th, 2007 at 12:41 pmComment by Tundra — July 5, 2007 @ 12:34 pm
Tundra,
Why do you think commenters here who have had experience with other country’s healthcare systems are so amazed and pleased? Why do you think commenters from other countries are scratching their heads over the way we do things?
It’s because the way we are doing things is INSANE!! Continuing to do the same thing, or slapping bandaids on a gushing wound is continued insanity!
Big Pharma and Big Insurance would love you, my dear. You’ve bought into their propaganda big time. They will happily slap a bandaid on the gushing artery….
July 5th, 2007 at 12:42 pmOh No, Not Texas !!!
Chadwick you seem to be surprised that your neighboring Texans were anything but total Bush-licking rednecks. My real life experience of Texas includes my first trip to an Ashram just outside of Houston. In Houston I lived for a few days in the home of some very non-Christian yet very religious folks. I was introduced to vegetarian health foods at a wonderful resturant called the Hobbit-Hole My introduction to yoga came at a shopping center on the way to Dallas where two incredible yogi brothers were giving free demonstrations. In Dallas I met more gay people than i had ever seen before. Oh, don’t let me forget somewhere around San Antonio was my introduction to group sex.
I know none of the above has anything to do with Sicko or with spontaneous political organization, but i just wanted to say that there’s more to Texas than just the stereotypes.
July 5th, 2007 at 12:52 pmIt’s because the way we are doing things is INSANE!! Continuing to do the same thing, or slapping bandaids on a gushing wound is continued insanity!
I’m….not….saying…that…..the…..system……works……I’m….not…..saying…..that….it….doesn’t….need….to…….be……fixed.
I……am……saying……..the……government……..cannot…../…….willnot……take…….care……..of…….our……..soldiers…….I…..am…….aware……of…….thousands…….of……cases………of……horrific……VA……Healthcare (Not all from Bush either)…..issues. You…….are…..saying……..so……..what,…….they……can……take…..care………of……my……kids…….I…..trust……them……to…..get…..it…..right………..even………though………they……..never……..have.
Big Pharma and Big Insurance would love you, my dear. You’ve bought into their propaganda big time. They will happily slap a bandaid on the gushing artery….
July 5th, 2007 at 12:55 pmBecause I said?
“Or they could reign in the drug companies/insurance companies provide caps.”
Show me something first. Sort of bolster their resume a little. By handling something small first.
Tundra,
Don’t talk slowly to me, that’s asinine. If you’re going to be snide, I’ll be done after this comment.
I know you’re not saying the current system works, but you’re also not advocating any change other than caps on drug companies and insurance companies — which will trigger them to fight those caps, spending more money than it would take us and the government to overhaul the entire system — and leaving us with more of the same.
July 5th, 2007 at 1:00 pmIf you’re going to be snide, I’ll be done after this comment.
Your comment Big Pharma and Big Insurance would love you, my dear. You’ve bought into their propaganda big time. They will happily slap a bandaid on the gushing artery….
Wasn’t snide and uncalled for?
but you’re also not advocating any change other than caps on drug companies and insurance companies
July 5th, 2007 at 1:09 pmAnd vaccinating everyone and preventative care (Healthcare memberships etc). I am open to all sorts of changes, just not “Here take it all”. These are the same people who came up with the gem of an imigration bill. I can’t see them coming up with the golden ticket first try. I am all for the change, just ease into it, not cannonball into the deepend with a group that forgets to fill the pool.
#67 IamaLiberal:
I……..see……..
Well, I suppose there are times that we all DO agree on something — like when Cheney claims not to be part of the exec branch, we might collectively disagree with him on that point. But that’s not due to group-think, that’s due to Cheney being so obviously wrong. There IS such a thing as a no-brainer.
And we don’t need MM to tell us that the health care system desperately needs fixing — we already knew that. We are grateful that MM is shining a spotlight on the issue, not telling us what to think.
As far as the rest of your argument — that we are just hateful name-calling and insulting automatons — why then are all the name-calling and insulting talking heads like Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Michael Savage, Bill O’Reilly, etc. etc. on the right? And why is the term “dittohead” used to describe fans of Rush instead of fans of Keith Olbermann or Paul Krugman?
And I won’t even get into your shot about the use of the term “homophobe” because this thread is for a completely different topic.
July 5th, 2007 at 1:12 pmZoo. He just wont listen. He has made up his mind.
July 5th, 2007 at 1:22 pmHey Trolls!!!! I just heard the sound of PudgeBoy Rover crapping his Depends! If TEXANS are starting to question derFueher and faltering from the BushCo goose-step, things are getting very very bad and he may not be able to hold things together much longer.
July 5th, 2007 at 1:24 pmI am neither a fan or against it. I just find it quite ironc and amusing that for all the Libtards in the USA to say that Cuba’s healthcare system, doctors, etc are so great, Castro didn’t allow Cuban doctors or healthcare system to touch him.
Comment by Conservatron — July 5, 2007 @ 11:31 am
If you’re speaking of the reasons Castro called a Spanish doctor, was simply he knew no Conservatard in the USA would believe a Cuban doctor stating “Castro is alive”.
Was a simple political move, not due to the need of knowledge of a foreign doctor.
Oh, and to the ones trying to equate socialized medicine=Socialism=Communism, simply say that is totally idiotic and proper of an ignorant to say so. UK, France, Italy, Germany, Switzerland, Sweden, Spain and many, many more countries in Europe have/had very rightist governments, and none of them have said anything against universal healthcare. In fact many of their universal healthcare systems were designed by rightst governemnts initially, because having healthy workers is good for bussiness. Check it for yourself, and stop spewing cheap fallacies.
July 5th, 2007 at 1:29 pmwhy then are all the name-calling and insulting talking heads like Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Michael Savage, Bill O’Reilly, etc. etc. on the right?
July 5th, 2007 at 1:31 pmComment by missmolly — July 5, 2007 @ 1:12 pm
Sorry folks, this is the third time in as many days that my posts, preceded by cutting and pasting another, has been altered. I’m not sure why, but it’s friggin annoying. I actually had a comment regarding post #80, and would have loved to share, but I really don’t feel like duplicating a well thought out paragraph that mysteriously disappears
July 5th, 2007 at 1:35 pm(of course, it could be operator error, but being male, I’ll never admit to that….heh)
I have not seen the movie and don’t intend to. I find Moore’s work childish and manipulative — propaganda really. I get enough of that by reading the Boston Globe.
July 5th, 2007 at 1:41 pmPlease note that Conservatron fails to respond to the demand for actual facts concerning his allegations that patients flee from Canada and other socialized medicine countries to the United States. That is the problem with any right wing true believer. They do not belong to a reality based world. Instead, they can merely parrot the talking points provided by extreme right wing pundits and corporate lobbyists. This is simple for them since they understand that they have neither the intellectual capacity, experience or self-confidence to take an objective look at an issue. They need to be led since they understand their own inferiority.
July 5th, 2007 at 1:48 pm#82 I have not seen the movie and don’t intend to. I find Moore’s work childish and manipulative — propaganda really. I get enough of that by reading the Boston Globe.
Comment by Cynicon Implant
Or by watching Faux NoNooz, now THAT is a childish and manipulative group of folks, if ever there was one! And, of course, Ann Coulter is the model for all Righties behavior?
And maybe if you would watch Moore’s movies, you would see, like in F 9/11 and Bowling for Columbine, that everything he said in them has been proven to be true, or maybe the truth hurts too much?
July 5th, 2007 at 1:58 pmPlease note that Conservatron fails to respond to the demand for actual facts concerning his allegations that patients flee from Canada and other socialized medicine countries to the United States.
Comment by JMOHR — July 5, 2007 @ 1:48 pm
He conveniently “forgets” also how many retirees of the USA go live in Canada and Mexico, because they can profit from the universal healthcare there, by paying a small tax, far smaller than any private insurance fee. Also forgets to mention how, not so many time ago, people in the USA rushed to Canada and Mexico again because the “great” healthcare system in the USA botched the previsions of flu vaccines, due to its wish to get it too cheap.
July 5th, 2007 at 1:59 pm68 = Concern troll
July 5th, 2007 at 2:01 pmAnd we march on the path to bankruptcy and the collapse of the US economy.
July 5th, 2007 at 2:02 pm68 = Just Plain Troll
July 5th, 2007 at 2:03 pm#87 And we march on the path to bankruptcy and the collapse of the US economy.
Comment by m12
So you are finally realizing what your BushCo boyz are doing to us!!! Glad that you have seen the light!!
July 5th, 2007 at 2:08 pm#89
No, I’m talking about Conyers and his $2 TRILLION tax and spend plan!
July 5th, 2007 at 2:09 pmm12,
“No, I’m talking about Conyers and his $2 TRILLION tax and spend plan!”
So why aren’t you upset with the Republican’s multi-trillion dollar borrow and spend plans that they instituted when they had all power in DC?
God forbid we actually practice fiscal conservatism.
July 5th, 2007 at 2:13 pmTo m12 –
Expand point, please. Are you suggesting we are marching on the path to bankruptcy and the collapse of the US economy with the system we have now? Or is this your prediction if we move to a universal health care system?
I will assume you mean if we continue the system we have now, since other countries with universal health care show no sign of imploding.
Yes — every time health care premiums go up, another group of people are left uninsured and another group of employers have to cut insurance benefits to their employees. As the number of uninsured increases, the more the rest of us have to pony up for their “health care” in emergency rooms (the only place they can go). And every uninsured child is a child getting inadequate health care when they need it most — allowing undiagnosed health problems that can dog them for the rest of their lives, dragging the system down further. It’s not too hard to see where this vicious circle is headed.
July 5th, 2007 at 2:16 pmm12,
and by the way, Conyers doesn’t run the appropriations committee. That’s David Obey!!
Perhaps an eudcation would benefit you some.
I could recommend some reading if you want. Start with the Constitution of the United States.
July 5th, 2007 at 2:19 pmSo why aren’t you upset with the Republican’s multi-trillion dollar borrow and spend plans that they instituted when they had all power in DC?
Please detail this ‘multi-trillion’ annual borrowing.
July 5th, 2007 at 2:21 pm#94
That hasn’t stopped him from writing this bill.
http://www.house.gov/conyers/news_hr676_2.htm
July 5th, 2007 at 2:22 pmm12,
“Please detail this ‘multi-trillion’ annual borrowing”
You’re joking right? So what, we run deficits because we simply aren’t paying things.
Here’s a list of the total debt outstanding at the end of the fiscal years 2000-2006. These are years when the “fiscally conservative party” ran the nation and had complete control of Congress and the White House.
09/30/2006 $8,506,973,899,215.23
09/30/2005 $7,932,709,661,723.50
09/30/2004 $7,379,052,696,330.32
09/30/2003 $6,783,231,062,743.62
09/30/2002 $6,228,235,965,597.16
09/30/2001 $5,807,463,412,200.06
So I’m adding and coming up with about 3 trillion dollars. You can add right?
July 5th, 2007 at 2:27 pmSo I’m adding and coming up with about 3 trillion dollars. You can add right?
3 trillion over 6 years, yeah. Conyers is planning on spending 2 trillion in a single year!
July 5th, 2007 at 2:28 pmExpand point, please. Are you suggesting we are marching on the path to bankruptcy and the collapse of the US economy with the system we have now? Or is this your prediction if we move to a universal health care system?
Who is going to pay for this system? Harry Potter?
July 5th, 2007 at 2:31 pmm12,
“So I’m adding and coming up with about 3 trillion dollars. You can add right?”
We’ll see what happens I guess, but at least you’re admitting that you are not concerned with massive spending or borrowing as long as it’s your party that does it.
“Who is going to pay for this system? Harry Potter?”
We already spend more on health care as a nation then it would take to flop to a universal health care system.
July 5th, 2007 at 2:33 pmm12,
Plus, 2 trillion in one year. There is no way there will be a 2 trillion dollar deficit in one year.
If it’s a ‘tax and spend’ bill, then we will paying for the spending right?
Much different then borrow and spend. Where you pay for none of it until you are dead and then you leave the bill with your kids.
Not that any of that matters
July 5th, 2007 at 2:38 pmWe already spend more on health care as a nation then it would take to flop to a universal health care system.
Our tax gap is about $250 billion dollars. Another $250 billion is spent complying with the tax code. Max Baucus, the Senate finance chairman who writes the tax laws, failed to fully comply with the current tax code.
We will see what happens, yeah. Idiots in Congress will write massive tax laws and wonder why they aren’t getting all the revenues they planned! Then again, maybe Mr. Potter has a special method of tax collection.
July 5th, 2007 at 2:39 pmPlus, 2 trillion in one year. There is no way there will be a 2 trillion dollar deficit in one year.
If it’s a ‘tax and spend’ bill, then we will paying for the spending right?
You assume Conyers is planning on taxing as much as he is spending. We can’t even afford Medicare for 40 million Americans.
July 5th, 2007 at 2:43 pmm12,
Or we could continue to defer those taxes, and pay our bills with the nations credit card right?
This is obviously your preferred method.
Tax deferments don’t pay for themselves. All economists will tell you this. You must couple them with spending cuts. Unfortunately, while Americans may say they don’t like spending, they do like investments in things like, education, social security, roads, homleand security. So what are you gonna cut that will help you get re-elected? Not much. And there’s the rub.
July 5th, 2007 at 2:45 pmm12,
“You assume Conyers is planning on taxing as much as he is spending. We can’t even afford Medicare for 40 million Americans.”
And why is that, because people that progressive taxation is some kind of a crime.
Further, I don’t care what Conyers has proposed. The Ways and Means committee, headed by Charlie Wrangle, is in charged of how we generate funds. The Appropriations committee, headed by david Obey, is in charge of how we spend that. So even if Conyers authored the bill, it must get out of one of those committees anyway.
July 5th, 2007 at 2:48 pmOr we could continue to defer those taxes, and pay our bills with the nations credit card right?
In which case, the last thing to do would be to ADD more things to that credit card.
Tax deferments don’t pay for themselves. All economists will tell you this. You must couple them with spending cuts. Unfortunately, while Americans may say they don’t like spending, they do like investments in things like, education, social security, roads, homleand security. So what are you gonna cut that will help you get re-elected? Not much. And there’s the rub.
There is the rub, indeed. Now the Democrats are in charge of Congress. So what are they going to cut?
You can gut our military, but that only nets you a meager $646 billion.
Oh, and the tax cutting ideal did not originate from me. It came from John Kennedy.
July 5th, 2007 at 2:54 pmm12,
Look, the point I’m trying to make here is that I see your frustration with that spending bill as being a little hypocritical.
The Republicans ran up the debt while campaigning as the fiscally conservative party. But now your pissed that the democrats are going to attempt a pay as you go method. The same method that gave us surpluses at the end of the 90’s?
Further, that fiscally conservative party, just shut down the repeal of the tax subsidy that is given to big oil. That doesn’t infuriate you? Why does the most profitbal industry in the world need a subsidy from you and me?
July 5th, 2007 at 3:00 pmWhy would the Republicans go to that extreme?
And why is that, because people that progressive taxation is some kind of a crime.
Hmm? I think a word is missing here.
Further, I don’t care what Conyers has proposed. The Ways and Means committee, headed by Charlie Wrangle, is in charged of how we generate funds. The Appropriations committee, headed by david Obey, is in charge of how we spend that. So even if Conyers authored the bill, it must get out of one of those committees anyway.
Well, alrite. Why don’t you tell these people to put some plan in writing before discussing ‘universal’ health care in the abstract?
July 5th, 2007 at 3:00 pmm12,
“Well, alrite. Why don’t you tell these people to put some plan in writing before discussing ‘universal’ health care in the abstract?”
This is the best plan I have seen. It will lower the overall cost we pay, and will bring up the standard of care. Remember, according to the WHO, we rank 37th in quality of care. We trail nearly every nation that has a universal system in quality of care.
http://www.pnhp.org/
“Hmm? I think a word is missing here.”
Yeah, it would be nice if we could edit our posts after they go up eh?
It should have read “And why is that, because people have been convinced by the right wing in our country that progressive taxation is some kind of a crime.”
July 5th, 2007 at 3:05 pmm12 –
I always love it when people bemoan the cost of a universal health care system as if what we get now is for free.
Yes — the government would have to pony up the money for this. As to where the money would come from, there have been a number of suggestions. One of the most popular is to tax businesses and corporations — the trade-off being that they would pay more in taxes and less in employee benefits. And because under a universal care system costs would be cheaper (nobody would be making a profit anywhere), they would probably pay less in extra taxes than the huge amount they are currently paying to insure their workforce.
And the tax rate wouldn’t even have to go up as much as you might think. The cost of living would go down for everybody who is currently paying obscene amounts of money for their own insurance, or paying a large portion of their company provided insurance. With more disposable income, look for a boom in the economy, which would increase the goods and services produced by our corporations, resulting in more tax revenue simply because they are making more money.
Look for overhead to plummet. Medicare, a government run program, currently runs with about 1% overhead. Private for-profit health care companies far exceed that — what with advertising, marketing, lobbying, and other expenses necessary to keep the current system afloat. And WE are currently paying for this overhead in the form of insanely high premiums. Less overhead means less to have to pay for.
And one last benefit — giving everybody access to health care means people are more likely to stay healthy. Small problems can be taken care of before they become expensive big problems if people have access to doctors and they are detected. Children who have access to doctors can start out life healthy, instead of developing health problems that will only get larger and be a drain on the system. Keeping people healthy instead of fixing problems later will save money in the long run.
Yes — economic collapse is definitely a concern. But only if we continue to let the current system spiral out of control.
July 5th, 2007 at 3:11 pmFurther, that fiscally conservative party, just shut down the repeal of the tax subsidy that is given to big oil. That doesn’t infuriate you? Why does the most profitbal industry in the world need a subsidy from you and me?
Why would the Republicans go to that extreme?
Those oil subsidies were enacted by the Clinton administration. Are you suggesting that the feds stomp on the little guy by cancelling their own agreement?
Yeah, it does suck, but so does Dick Turbin and Obama blocking any repeal of the ethanol tariff.
But now your pissed that the democrats are going to attempt a pay as you go method.
What pay as you go method? I haven’t seen any democrats trying to close this year’s (or next years’) deficit.
July 5th, 2007 at 3:12 pmM12:
July 5th, 2007 at 3:12 pmYou sort of remind me of my former father-in-law. Other than money are there any other variables you value when considering complex issues?
m12,
“Those oil subsidies were enacted by the Clinton administration. Are you suggesting that the feds stomp on the little guy by cancelling their own agreement?”
I don’t care who started them. WHAT IS WITH THE CLINTON DID IT DEFENSE?!?!?!?!? Stop already! It should be repealed. Do you disagree?
THat second sentence of yours, I’ll admit, lost me. You’re not calling the oil industry, ‘the little guy’ are you?
July 5th, 2007 at 3:17 pmTo Crump’s Brother — did you just fall off your own wagon?
July 5th, 2007 at 3:25 pmThis is the best plan I have seen. It will lower the overall cost we pay, and will bring up the standard of care. Remember, according to the WHO, we rank 37th in quality of care. We trail nearly every nation that has a universal system in quality of care.
This might actually be believable if they actually defined what exactly ‘modest taxes’ are. The only actual proposal on that site is from 1999, and its outdated.
It should have read “And why is that, because people have been convinced by the right wing in our country that progressive taxation is some kind of a crime.â€
Perhaps. Or that people have been convinced from history that taxing the ‘rich’ is a fradulent scheme. Just look at the AMT.
July 5th, 2007 at 3:27 pmConservatives squandered the opportunity for single payer health care in the 90s, with their mindless screeching and bellowing that they didn’t want government rationing of health care, or meddling between doctor and patient — (other than a woman’s reproductive rights) So now we have corporations rationing our healthcare instead, and no voice in the system. Typical of how conservatives screw everything up. Conservative rank and file chumps are servile authoritarian bootlickers — they hate daddy Government — but only because their team says they should — but they slavishly adore Daddy CEO and Daddy Insurance Company bean counter, and Daddy Wall Street — again, only because their team says they should.
July 5th, 2007 at 3:27 pmI don’t care who started them. WHAT IS WITH THE CLINTON DID IT DEFENSE?!?!?!?!? Stop already! It should be repealed. Do you disagree?
THat second sentence of yours, I’ll admit, lost me. You’re not calling the oil industry, ‘the little guy’ are you?
Compared to the federal government? They’re little, yeah. The oil companies should have their favorable deal honored for the duration of the leases, and they should not be renewed.
You and I cannot back out of business deals we make on a whim. Do you really want more opportunities for Congress to ignore their own laws?
July 5th, 2007 at 3:30 pmYou sort of remind me of my former father-in-law. Other than money are there any other variables you value when considering complex issues?
Money is a complex issue. There are several billion transactions annually in the current health care system, and the single payer crowd plans to snap their fingers and assimilate all of them.
You think that’s simple?
July 5th, 2007 at 3:31 pmm12,
If that deal goes woefully bad for one party or the other, way outside of what could be seen as reasonable, then yes, the people have the power to renegotiate said deal.
They are making Billions in profits, while are giving them billions in subsidies. Then they rake us at the pump on top of it. NO DEAL!!!
July 5th, 2007 at 3:34 pmLaura
It is not daddy-government they hate. They love daddy-government, they love the whole Macho BS that they eroneously ascribe to masculinity.
They love the idea of a government which goes on its gut, shoots first and asks questions later, that has as its first reaction to anything even vaguely looking like threatening America getting the kack beaten out of it. They are actually mildly annoyed at NKorea not being invaded yet and they still think Vietnam was a good idea.
They trully dig the idea of a government which keeps stern discipline and punishes people who they see as being naughty. Well, right up until they are naughty, but still.
What they hate is Mommy government. When last have you heard something described in feminine terms by these guys as being good?
July 5th, 2007 at 3:35 pmmissmolly,
“To Crump’s Brother — did you just fall off your own wagon?”
I’m afraid I don’t follow you here. What do you mean?
July 5th, 2007 at 3:36 pmm12
Fed Versus Big Oil: If I was an American, I would side with the Fed. Reason? The whole idea is that the Fed is my servant, the president is my servant, the members of Congress are my servants because this is supposed to be a democracy.
Thus I am the Fed.
And I am not going to side against myself.
July 5th, 2007 at 3:39 pmI always love it when people bemoan the cost of a universal health care system as if what we get now is for free.
As opposed to the liberal idea that the profits in our current system somehow disappear into a vacuum?
One of the most popular is to tax businesses and corporations — the trade-off being that they would pay more in taxes and less in employee benefits. And because under a universal care system costs would be cheaper (nobody would be making a profit anywhere), they would probably pay less in extra taxes than the huge amount they are currently paying to insure their workforce.
You do realize that corporations are extremely skilled at dodging taxes? And that it is labor that bears the brunt of the corporate income tax?
Read this paper.
http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/75xx/doc7503/2006-09.pdf
Look for overhead to plummet. Medicare, a government run program, currently runs with about 1% overhead. Private for-profit health care companies far exceed that — what with advertising, marketing, lobbying, and other expenses necessary to keep the current system afloat. And WE are currently paying for this overhead in the form of insanely high premiums. Less overhead means less to have to pay for.
If you say so. Yet Medicare spends more money per patient than any private health insurance corporation.
And one last benefit — giving everybody access to health care means people are more likely to stay healthy. Small problems can be taken care of before they become expensive big problems if people have access to doctors and they are detected. Children who have access to doctors can start out life healthy, instead of developing health problems that will only get larger and be a drain on the system. Keeping people healthy instead of fixing problems later will save money in the long run.
Then why is our GDP per capita higher than France, England, Canada, Japan and every other large nation in the world?
Clearly, we are doing something right.
July 5th, 2007 at 3:40 pmIf that deal goes woefully bad for one party or the other, way outside of what could be seen as reasonable, then yes, the people have the power to renegotiate said deal.
They are making Billions in profits, while are giving them billions in subsidies. Then they rake us at the pump on top of it. NO DEAL!!!
You’d have a tough time arguing that $20 billion or so in tax breaks is ‘woefully bad’ for a $3 trillion federal government.
July 5th, 2007 at 3:43 pmFed Versus Big Oil: If I was an American, I would side with the Fed. Reason? The whole idea is that the Fed is my servant, the president is my servant, the members of Congress are my servants because this is supposed to be a democracy.
Yeah, because that idea is working so well for liberals with our current President and Congress…..
July 5th, 2007 at 3:44 pmm12
Where do you think those profits come from?
The profits won’t vanish: They will simply remain in the hands of those who are being profitted from.
As to GDP: FDR. America’s excellent road system and internal transport system has, coupled with America’s unionisation, given it a distinct advantage over the smaller and less stable Europe.
July 5th, 2007 at 3:51 pmm12,
“As opposed to the liberal idea that the profits in our current system somehow disappear into a vacuum?”
They do. THey buy corporate headquarters, lear jets, yachts. The former CEO of United Health total take for his career as CEO had a staggering paper value of $2 billion. I guess that’s helping get care how? I’m not saying he shouldn’t make a decent living, but give me break.
“If you say so. Yet Medicare spends more money per patient than any private health insurance corporation.”
Perhaps. But older Americans require more from the health care system. MAny of them do because they couldn’t get preventive care earlier in their lives, because they couldn’t afford for profit health insurance. Plus with Medicare98% of all moeny goes to actual care. As opposed to for profit health care where anywhere between 15 and 30% goes to overhead costs.
July 5th, 2007 at 3:52 pmTo #116 Laura:
Conservatives live by the “survival of the fittest” axiom, and abhor what they consider to be weakness in any form. They can’t stand the idea of anyone getting a helping hand from the government, no matter what the purpose. Welfare and food stamps should be abolished because they enable laziness, “socialized medicine” is a communist plot, the homeless are that way because they choose to be, the public shouldn’t have to pay for public education, crime prevention programs are just a bleeding-heart liberal idea (throw ‘em in prison instead), etc. etc.
What they don’t realize is that if they don’t give people a small amount of help when they need it, the people don’t just go away — the need just becomes larger. And more and more people become reduced to begging in the street. On the other hand, maybe they WANT our country to look like a banana republic…..
July 5th, 2007 at 3:52 pmm12 would push his mother, wife and children under a bus, if it would save him $2.98.
July 5th, 2007 at 3:53 pmm12,
“You’d have a tough time arguing that $20 billion or so in tax breaks is ‘woefully bad’ for a $3 trillion federal government.”
Seriously? I bet if we asked the taxpayers of America if they feel they would rather give that 20 billion to the oil industry, or use it to pay down the debt, I guarantee to you the answer would overwhelmingly be the latter!!!
July 5th, 2007 at 3:54 pmSiCKO was a brilliant film that everyone should see.
I had an 8th grade teacher tell me that even though she had no children, she’d rather pay taxes for education than juvenile services because many kids who couldn’t afford to pay into a private system would have nothing, which too often leads to crime.
It works the same way with Health Care. Unless you’re a heartless, self-absorbed neoconservative…
July 5th, 2007 at 3:54 pmZooey,
“m12 would push his mother, wife and children under a bus, if it would save him $2.98.”
Hilarious!!
July 5th, 2007 at 3:54 pmm12
Hey, that the guys you wanted as your servants suck is not my fault or the fault of the people who pointed out that they suck in the first place.
America has lost its central ethic of government: Government belongs to the people, the people don’t belong to the government. Until people recognise that Democracy means the government is ultimately yours, you will end up with more and more bad governments.
July 5th, 2007 at 3:55 pmThey do. THey buy corporate headquarters, lear jets, yachts. The former CEO of United Health total take for his career as CEO had a staggering paper value of $2 billion. I guess that’s helping get care how? I’m not saying he shouldn’t make a decent living, but give me break.
And the companies that make jets and yachts? The employees they hire? The money spent on materials to make jets and yachts?
July 5th, 2007 at 4:00 pmUntil people recognise that Democracy means the government is ultimately yours, you will end up with more and more bad governments.
Comment by Bruce Gorton — July 5, 2007 @ 3:55 pm
Moore had dinner with a group of Americans living in Paris, and one of them told him that the difference between the French system and the US system was exactly that – that the French government fears the people, while the US people fear the government. Moore then said that until we stop buying into the fear-mongering and the degradation from our government, that we wouldn’t change.
I loved when he briefly mentioned that he sent an anonymous $12k to a man who runs a website devoted solely to bashing Michael Moore films, so that the man could afford his wife’s cancer treatment and afford continue to run his anti-Michael Moore site… LOL
July 5th, 2007 at 4:01 pmm12,
“And the companies that make jets and yachts? The employees they hire? The money spent on materials to make jets and yachts?”
You aren’t getting it. People are dying because they can’t afford health care coverage, and you’re justifying because yacht makers are getting rich too!!!
Unbelievable!!
July 5th, 2007 at 4:02 pmm12 –
Waitaminnit — you’re saying we shouldn’t fix our broken health care system because it might be detrimental to the corporate jet and yacht industry???????
July 5th, 2007 at 4:02 pmSeriously? I bet if we asked the taxpayers of America if they feel they would rather give that 20 billion to the oil industry, or use it to pay down the debt, I guarantee to you the answer would overwhelmingly be the latter!!!
Probably. Then again, when posed with the reality of paying higher Democratic taxes in 1993, we know what they answered the following year.
And yet the left believes they will somehow willingly pony up a much larger UHC tax burden.
July 5th, 2007 at 4:02 pmI’m Rush and I’ve changed!
July 5th, 2007 at 4:02 pmTrickle Down Theory does NOT work m12, due to human greed.
It was debunked years ago… It’s why the right stopped using the term.
July 5th, 2007 at 4:03 pmm12,
“Probably. Then again, when posed with the reality of paying higher Democratic taxes in 1993, we know what they answered the following year.”
Then we could ask how they felt about that progressive taxation rate at the end of decade eh? When we had a great economy, record job growth, and a surplus. See, it does work!!!
July 5th, 2007 at 4:03 pmHey, that the guys you wanted as your servants suck is not my fault or the fault of the people who pointed out that they suck in the first place.
Nobody has said it is your fault. But the reality is that you will not win every election.
July 5th, 2007 at 4:04 pmAnd yet the left believes they will somehow willingly pony up a much larger UHC tax burden.
Comment by m12 — July 5, 2007 @ 4:02 pm
It was already proven to you that a UHC system would cost LESS than what the US currently spends on our broken system. HALF!
Need the information again?
July 5th, 2007 at 4:05 pmm12,
I’m rich enough man. I think universal health care is ok. I’ve got my stocks in defense now. Diversify!!!
July 5th, 2007 at 4:05 pmProbably. Then again, when posed with the reality of paying higher Democratic taxes in 1993, we know what they answered the following year. Comment by m12 — July 5, 2007 @ 4:02 pm
Please, that’s b*llsh*t. Demographics, and voting profiles show your *lies* are just idiotic.
And yet the left believes they will somehow willingly pony up a much larger UHC tax burden. Comment by m12 — July 5, 2007 @ 4:02 pm
Just because you *fake* the past, doesn’t make it true – st*pid b!tch!
Nobody has said it is your fault. But the reality is that you will not win every election. Comment by m12 — July 5, 2007 @ 4:04 pm
Nor *can* you win most elections – unless you cheat. Loser.
July 5th, 2007 at 4:05 pmIt was already proven to you that a UHC system would cost LESS than what the US currently spends on our broken system. HALF!
Need the information again?
Comment by unbelievable — July 5, 2007 @ 4:05 pm
Truth has a liberal bias, and poor little m12 can’t face the truth… Maybe that’s why *it* claimed the solution to fixing medicare was to let the old sick people die that required catastrophic care. That’s a real *noble* soul there… NOT!
July 5th, 2007 at 4:07 pmIn 2004, per-capita spending for health care in the U.S. was more than double that in Canada: in the U.S., it totaled US$6,096; in Canada, US$3,038
http://www.who.int/whosis/database/core/core_select_process.cfm?countries=all&indicators=nha
July 5th, 2007 at 4:09 pmYou aren’t getting it. People are dying because they can’t afford health care coverage, and you’re justifying because yacht makers are getting rich too!!!
Everybody in this country is getting rich.
Is there any other nation where the poorest have 2000 square foot homes, with the average being 3 bedrooms, 1.5 baths, and a patio?
Is there any other nation where almost every citizen in poverty owns a vehicle, and 30% owning 2 or more?
Is there any other nation where over 50% of those in poverty own multiple color televisions?
Is there any other nation where the middle class drives a sport utility vehicle?
Is there any other nation which donates $30 billion to Africa and AIDS?
No!
July 5th, 2007 at 4:11 pmIn 2002, automotive companies claimed universal health care system in Canada saved labour costs.[12] In 2004, health care cost General Motors $5.8 billion, and would increase to $7 billion.[13] UAW also claimed the resulted escalating health care premiums reduced workers’ bargaining powers.[14] In fact, Canada’s universal healthcare has been an incentive for US companies to set up businesses and create jobs in Canada.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_and_American_health_care_systems_compared
July 5th, 2007 at 4:12 pmIn terms of population health, life expectancy in 2006 was about two and a half years longer in Canada, with Canadians living to an average of 79.9 years and Americans 77.5 years.[29] Infant and child mortality rates are also higher in the U.S.[29]. Some comparisons suggest that the American system underperforms Canada’s system as well as those of other industrialized nations with universal coverage.[30] For example, a ranking by the World Health Organization of health care system performance among 191 member nations, published in 2000, ranked Canada 30th and the U.S. 37th, and the overall health of Canada 35th to the American 72nd.[31] In an international comparison of 21 more specific quality indicators conducted by the Commonwealth Fund International Working Group on Quality Indicators, the results were more divided. Canada performed better on 7 indicators; such as survival rates for colorectal cancer, childhood leukemia, and kidney and liver transplants. The U.S. performed better on 10 indicators, including survival rates for breast and cervical cancer, lower suicide rates, and avoidance of childhood diseases such as pertussis and measles.[28]
July 5th, 2007 at 4:12 pmAnd the companies that make jets and yachts? The employees they hire? The money spent on materials to make jets and yachts?
Comment by m12 — July 5, 2007 @ 4:00 pm
… are mostly not in America.
Nobody has said it is your fault. But the reality is that you will not win every election.
Comment by m12 — July 5, 2007 @ 4:04 pm
Nor should we. We are not always right, and the way to make sure that the government doesn’t get lax, stuck in its ways or negligent in its duties is to make sure that no one party remains in power if its performance isn’t up to scratch.
An election is simply supposed to be a vehicle whereby Americans are told the plans of each candidate, with the American voting for the plans they think are best for America.
It is the duty of America’s people to discipline the government, and change the government should the government’s plans fail – in short if your servants fail to serve you to your satisfaction it is your duty to fire them.
They are your servants, chosen by majority assent, but still your servants not your masters.
July 5th, 2007 at 4:13 pmm12,
“And yet the left believes they will somehow willingly pony up a much larger UHC tax burden.”
but polls have shown that americans are willing to pay higher taxes if it will result in universal coverage. They are especially willing to roll back the Bush tax deferral to pay for it.
July 5th, 2007 at 4:14 pmThen we could ask how they felt about that progressive taxation rate at the end of decade eh? When we had a great economy, record job growth, and a surplus. See, it does work!!!
Until Q3 2000, yeah. Never mind that Clinton had to gut the military budget to do so.
You do realize that your current trend of ‘income inequality’ started during his term?
July 5th, 2007 at 4:15 pmbut polls have shown that americans are willing to pay higher taxes if it will result in universal coverage. They are especially willing to roll back the Bush tax deferral to pay for it.
‘Higher taxes’ to them = $500, not the thousands of dollars per person needed to finance the Conyers scheme.
July 5th, 2007 at 4:16 pmTruth has a liberal bias, and poor little m12 can’t face the truth… Maybe that’s why *it* claimed the solution to fixing medicare was to let the old sick people die that required catastrophic care. That’s a real *noble* soul there… NOT!
Comment by ValiantVenusGrewFromUranus — July 5, 2007 @ 4:07 pm
One of my Principals is a serious neocon. Out of nowhere one day she made some comment about why communism and socialism would never work. I was speechless, because she failed to notice the reality that she has spent her entire career in a government driven social system… Same type of non-connected nonsense from all of them. They truly do not think anything though and avoid reality at all costs… Unfortunately, it’s not just to their own detriment… Like Michael Moore said – it’s a WE system…
July 5th, 2007 at 4:17 pmIn 2004, per-capita spending for health care in the U.S. was more than double that in Canada: in the U.S., it totaled US$6,096; in Canada, US$3,038
The same Canada that doesn’t have 12 million illegal immigrants, and engages in price fixing of prescription drugs. Too bad that last action is illegal in the united states.
We know that Crumps’ dismissed Mr. Conyers. Please explain why he is budgeting $2 trillion (and rising) annually for his program.
July 5th, 2007 at 4:21 pmEverybody in this country is getting rich.
That’s a lie. Only the upper bracket is getting rich. Everyone else is doing the same or WORSE.
Is there any other nation where the poorest have 2000 square foot homes, with the average being 3 bedrooms, 1.5 baths, and a patio?
The poorest do not have that. Another lie.
I’ve already debunked this lie. The poorest don’t own anything, much less a home.
Is there any other nation where almost every citizen in poverty owns a vehicle, and 30% owning 2 or more?
More lies… Where do you get your falasehhods?
Is there any other nation where over 50% of those in poverty own multiple color televisions? Is there any other nation where the middle class drives a sport utility vehicle? >/em>
Lies. And, besides, it’s not about possessions, it’s about health that defines quality of life…
Is there any other nation which donates $30 billion to Africa and AIDS?
No!
Comment by m12 — July 5, 2007 @ 4:11 pm
Prove it.
‘Higher taxes’ to them = $500, not the thousands of dollars per person needed to finance the Conyers scheme.
Comment by m12 — July 5, 2007 @ 4:16 pm
Conyers isn’t the end-all, be-all. Stop limiting our options to just one source. There are many to choose from.
July 5th, 2007 at 4:27 pm#151
You realize the airplane manufacturing industry, and Boeing in particular, is the largest exporter in the United States?
I doubt they will remain, though, if they are burdened by higher taxes.
July 5th, 2007 at 4:30 pmThe same Canada that doesn’t have 12 million illegal immigrants, and engages in price fixing of prescription drugs. Too bad that last action is illegal in the united states.
Comment by m12 — July 5, 2007 @ 4:21 pm
Excuses, excuses, excuses…
The immigrant problem is a conservative failure to enforce laws that penalize businesses who hire them.
They don’t fix prices. Drugs are actually cheaper in the UK…
July 5th, 2007 at 4:33 pm#156
Here you go.
http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/bg1713.cfm
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2007/05/20070530-6.html
You do realize there are only about 300 Democratic Congressmen, and that Conyers and his 4 pals are the only ones to introduce a plan? So, yeah, you don’t have many to choose from.
July 5th, 2007 at 4:35 pmI doubt they will remain, though, if they are burdened by higher taxes.
Comment by m12 — July 5, 2007 @ 4:30 pm
Spare us the melodramatic bullsh!t… Or course they will remain. You saying you’d just quit a profitable business because you were a tad less profitable? Please.
Agains, if your crack dealer raises the cost for your crack he supplies you, you’d raise your prices to your playground customers compensate. They will too…
July 5th, 2007 at 4:35 pmThe immigrant problem is a conservative failure to enforce laws that penalize businesses who hire them.
And liberals want to compound that failure by providing them billions of dollars in health care….brilliant!
July 5th, 2007 at 4:38 pmm12,
Conyers isn’t the final say…
July 5th, 2007 at 4:39 pmSpare us the melodramatic bullsh!t… Or course they will remain. You saying you’d just quit a profitable business because you were a tad less profitable? Please.
Agains, if your crack dealer raises the cost for your crack he supplies you, you’d raise your prices to your playground customers compensate. They will too…
You’re comparing the illegal crack market, where the product cannot be easily transported, to the airline market, where the purpose of the product is to be easily transported….well, ok.
Look at Haliburton and the Democratic whining. You don’t quit, you move.
July 5th, 2007 at 4:39 pm#162
You running for Congress, unbelievable?
July 5th, 2007 at 4:40 pmThe latest numbers from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention say 43.6 million, or about 15 percent of Americans, were uninsured in 2006. For the past five years, the overall count has fluctuated between 41 million and 44 million people. According to the Institute of Medicine, 18,000 people do die each year mainly because they are less likely to receive screening and preventive care for chronic diseases.
Both the French and Canadian systems rank in the Top 10 of the world’s best health-care systems, according to the World Health Organization. The United States comes in at No. 37. The rankings are based on general health of the population, access, patient satisfaction and how the care’s paid for.
So, if Americans are paying so much and they’re not getting as good or as much care, where is all the money going? “Overhead for most private health insurance plans range between 10 percent to 30 percent,” says Deloitte health-care analyst Paul Keckley. Overhead includes profit and administrative costs.
“Compare that to Medicare, which only has an overhead rate of 1 percent. Medicare is an extremely efficient health-care delivery system,” says Mark Meaney, a health-care ethicist for the National Institute for Patient Rights.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/06/28/sicko.fact.check/index.html#
July 5th, 2007 at 4:41 pmAmerica spends $2 trillion a year on health care!
We could have UHC for only $1 trillion, and put the rest to paying down the deficit!
Explain to me why that is a bad idea to you?
July 5th, 2007 at 4:43 pmAnd liberals want to compound that failure by providing them billions of dollars in health care….brilliant!
Comment by m12 — July 5, 2007 @ 4:38 pm
I realize the reality isn’t in your favor, but stop lying!
We are opposed to ILLEGAL immigration as well. I wrote my Senators on the matter, and it’s the only issue in which we have ever agreed – the Immigration Bill proposed was crap.
July 5th, 2007 at 4:45 pmYou’re comparing the illegal crack market, where the product cannot be easily transported, to the airline market, where the purpose of the product is to be easily transported….well, ok.
I was trying to give you an analogy that fit your mindset…
Look at Haliburton and the Democratic whining. You don’t quit, you move.
You approve of Halliburton leaving the US?
That’s so anti-American!
You running for Congress, unbelievable?
Comment by m12 — July 5, 2007 @ 4:40 pm
Maybe…
July 5th, 2007 at 4:47 pm#165
Please explain specifically how we can have UHC for $1 trillion.
July 5th, 2007 at 4:50 pmWe are opposed to ILLEGAL immigration as well. I wrote my Senators on the matter, and it’s the only issue in which we have ever agreed – the Immigration Bill proposed was crap.
That’s great. Unfortunately, the illegals are still here.
July 5th, 2007 at 4:50 pmm12
America’s healthcare system is the most expensive per capita in the world. It is ranked 37th on actually being any good.
The number one cause of bankruptcy in America, is people getting sick.
Bankrupt people cannot pay their creditors. Everyone loses in a Bankruptcy. Further, that highly expensive healthcare you more or less have to pay in America, is more then you would pay in taxes.
And you are telling us, that UHC is bad for business?
July 5th, 2007 at 5:03 pmAnd you are telling us, that UHC is bad for business?
Are you telling me that the higher taxes, lower incomes, lost foreign investment, and lost jobs that come with UHC are good for business?
The proof is in the pudding. US corporate earnings are the highest in the world, and its not just the big bad pharmaceutical industry.
July 5th, 2007 at 5:13 pmm12
higher taxes: Which mean lower operating costs as the price of UHC is cheaper then the old model – which didn’t give you perfect cover at any rate.
lower incomes: You have failed to demonstrate this one. Indeed as bankruptcies drop incomes will go up.
Lost foreign investment: Foreign investment is only any good in a place like Africa where you don’t have the local skills to build factories yourself. In America the long term impact of foreign investement is going to be that the foreign want more money back then they put in in the first place. It will reverse itself one day.
Lost jobs: Your one valid point is balanced by the fact that the money earned by the healthcare industry isn’t going to suddenly evaporate into nothing. More business will open up though in the short term there will be job losses.
As to US Corporate earnings: Most of the big earners aren’t even American anymore, and aren’t particularly beholden unto local factors. Further, while your profit margins are up, your poverty levels have grown under Bush at the same time, which leads to greater instability.
July 5th, 2007 at 5:31 pmPlease explain specifically how we can have UHC for $1 trillion.
Comment by m12 — July 5, 2007 @ 4:50 pm
Are you serious? Oh my god… You aren’t capable of connecting dots… Sh!t!
We spend twice on our broken system what Canada, and all other countries for that matter spends on UHC (as a part of GDP, and not per person). Because we spend $2 trillion a year on our system, if we cut it in half to getto the same GDP rate as everyone else, you get $1 trillion.
$2 trillion times 1/2 = $1 trillion.
Clear?
July 5th, 2007 at 5:34 pmThat’s great. Unfortunately, the illegals are still here.
Comment by m12 — July 5, 2007 @ 4:50 pm
Yet that remains irrelevant in the calculations for universal health care – dum bass.
The proof is in the pudding. US corporate earnings are the highest in the world, and its not just the big bad pharmaceutical industry. Comment by m12 — July 5, 2007 @ 5:13 pm
That’s because the US military spends billions to secure the profits of US corporations in overseas operations – dum bass.
July 5th, 2007 at 5:39 pmThat’s great. Unfortunately, the illegals are still here.
Comment by m12 — July 5, 2007 @ 4:50 pm
I can’t kick them all out on my own… I write my “Representatives” all the time demanding they hold businesses accountable for hiring illegals… But I just get form letters and no real action. Like a fence ever does anything but keep people IN… It hasn’t even been that long since 1989… And clearly we’ve learned nothing…
July 5th, 2007 at 5:39 pmm12,
Explain why UNC is bad if we can do it for HALF the cost of the broken system we now have.
July 5th, 2007 at 5:43 pmWe spend twice on our broken system what Canada, and all other countries for that matter spends on UHC (as a part of GDP, and not per person). Because we spend $2 trillion a year on our system, if we cut it in half to getto the same GDP rate as everyone else, you get $1 trillion.
Just because Canada does it doesn’t prove that we can.
July 5th, 2007 at 8:31 pmExplain why UNC is bad if we can do it for HALF the cost of the broken system we now have.
Medicaid covers about 50 billion people for about $300 billion dollars.
Medicare covers about 40 billion people for about $400 billion dollars.
You really think the other 210 million Americans can be covered for $300 billion? Please show me how!
July 5th, 2007 at 8:34 pm“The entire Sicko audience had somehow formed an impromptu town hall meeting in front of the ladies room.”
Woken from the politician-induced, media-maintained slumber!
I’m surprised more documentaries don’t get made on The Issues.
July 5th, 2007 at 9:06 pmhigher taxes: Which mean lower operating costs as the price of UHC is cheaper then the old model – which didn’t give you perfect cover at any rate.
There is no evidence of this at all…given that 1/6 of Americans do not pay their taxes, that is going to be paid by higher operating costs of the other 5/6 of us!
I suggest you read this article…perhaps we should figure the tax gap out before adding to it…
http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/302668/around_1_in_6_americans_do_not_pay.html
lower incomes: You have failed to demonstrate this one. Indeed as bankruptcies drop incomes will go up.
I think you overestimate the effect of bankruptcies….there are only about 1.8 million of them out of 300 million Americans….
We can only look at other large developed nations, all of which have lower incomes than us. Some by significant margins.
Lost foreign investment: Foreign investment is only any good in a place like Africa where you don’t have the local skills to build factories yourself. In America the long term impact of foreign investement is going to be that the foreign want more money back then they put in in the first place. It will reverse itself one day.
I suggest you read this article.
http://www.econlib.org/Library/Enc/ForeignInvestmentintheUnitedStates.html
They are going to want their money back, yes, but at lower rates of interest. As long as our economy continues to grow, it will remain an attractive place for the rest of the world to buy into.
There must be some reason China is buying our treasury bonds despite the availability of others’. Why do you think that is?
July 5th, 2007 at 9:11 pmMichael, you’ve shown a light on the American Spirit, and many of us are glad to see she still lives. You inspire us and bring back hope. Thank you.
July 6th, 2007 at 12:34 amHas anyone besides myself noticed that our resident trolls typically have the grammar skills of a 6 year old?
Why is that?
Comment by kelso
I have noticed it time after time. And it’s not just lack of grammar skills but also spelling and punctuation, too. The trolls try to impress us with how clever they are but end up having the reverse effect with their poor linguistic skills., such as troll michael asking one poster earlier this year, “Have you been excepted in fourth grade yet,” or Tracy’s “cry fowl(yea, cockadoodle doo),” Valiant Venus’ claim to be an attorney while consistently misspelling common legal terms like “breach” and “consensual” as “breech” and “consentual.” And finally, Conservatron/howsad/President Clinton/Harry Truman and several other aliases telling us how stupid we are while writing:
July 6th, 2007 at 12:51 am“poor, poor Libtars(sic). I love how easy it is to manipulate the left wing in America. It just shows the group think mentality that is so prevelant(sic) amongst Libtard groups. sad don’t you imbeciles think? ”
Also note the lack of needed commas and capital letters to start sentences. I have friends who are non-native speakers of English who write the language better than our “all-American” trolls.
m12
Very nice article, which contradicts my point by going into great length to say “Just because.”
It also misses the basic truth of investing: You invest because you expect to get more out of your investment then you would if you put your money in the bank. Foreign investment works out to being a loan at a worse rate then if you just borrowed the money, particularly in view of the fact that it means a constant capital outflow from your country, whereas a loan can and will eventually be paid off.
In places like Africa this is balanced by the introduction of key skills, this is not the case in places like America, where those skills are available locally, and industry can be encouraged to fill the gaps foreign investors seek to take.
July 6th, 2007 at 5:59 am