After Years Of Misleading Excuses, Pentagon Finally Seeks Lifesaving Vehicles For Troops In Iraq
After Years Of Misleading Excuses, Pentagon Finally Seeks Lifesaving Vehicles For Troops In Iraq
Yesterday, Defense Secretary Robert Gates asked Congress for more funds for Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles (MRAPs), which are “designed to withstand the underbelly bombs that cripple the lower-riding Humvees,” such as improvised explosive devices (IEDs), “the No. 1 killer of U.S. forces” in Iraq.
Gates’ request for the vehicles “comes about 2½ years after Marines in the field made an urgent plea for” MRAPs. Last month, Gates claimed that he had only recently learned about the benefits of MRAPs from reading a newspaper article, even though the technology was developed in the 1970s and the Pentagon had tested them in 2000.
Gates’s announcement follows similarly misleading excuses from high-ranking Pentagon officials, including then-Marine commandant Michael Hagee and former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Richard B. Myers:
Hagee: “Instead of granting the February 2005 request, then-Marine commandant Michael Hagee decided that June to buy more armored Humvees,” according to a USA Today report. Hagee ingnored the commanders’ request because “IEDs…were not a pronounced threat at the time.” But Newsweek has reported that, in 2004, President Bush said that “the military spent $150 million to defeat IEDs,” and Central Command figures show that “in 2004 there were 5,607 IED attacks [and] in 2005, there were 10,953.”
Myers: Myers has said buying MRAPs “was not on the radar screen when I was chairman,” between Oct. 2001 and Oct. 2005. E-mail records, however, show that “As early as December 2003…Pentagon analysts sent detailed information about the superiority of the vehicles to the Joint Chiefs of Staff.” In fact, one Pentagon analyst complained to a colleague that it was “frustrating to see the pictures of burning Humvees while knowing that there are other vehicles [MRAPs] out there that would provide more protection.”
As Sen. Joseph Biden (D-DE) and Kit Bond (R-MO) pointed out in a letter to Gates last month, if the Pentagon had stopped making excuses and starting producing MRAPs, “621 to 742 Americans” killed in IED attacks might still be alive.
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Geez -- it's about time! Or is four years the appropriate length of time in a war to "evaluate the need"????
July 18th, 2007 at 3:06 pmGreat....Now can we stay and finish the job?
July 18th, 2007 at 3:07 pmMRAPs made in Virginia and Wisconsin.
Today's cloture vote:
Virginia: ... Warner (R-VA), Nay ... Webb (D-VA), Yea
Wisconsin: ... Feingold (D-WI), Yea ... Kohl (D-WI), Yea
Just for those curious.
July 18th, 2007 at 3:08 pmRingo -- only if we know what "finish the job" means.
July 18th, 2007 at 3:08 pmLet's see, by the time these vehicles are ready to deploy, should be about Jan 09??
July 18th, 2007 at 3:09 pmFor Rinko, it's swallow or spit.
July 18th, 2007 at 3:10 pm#3 good info to know! thanks
July 18th, 2007 at 3:10 pmThe equation is that American GI's are cheaper than MRAP's.
July 18th, 2007 at 3:12 pmNO need for the vehicles if the troops were removed from Iraq, but it is a good idea to replace faulty vehicles with ones that can withstand being blown up by roadside bombs.
July 18th, 2007 at 3:14 pmIt is good to see they are finally waking up about this need. Our troops deserve these units. It will certainly help moral and the war effort in Iraq the next 5+ years.
July 18th, 2007 at 3:15 pmThese vehicles may, indeed, help the "morale" of the troops but they won't help improve the "moral" justifications for continuing to occupy Iraq.
July 18th, 2007 at 3:19 pmHagee ingnored the commanders’ request because “IEDs…were not a pronounced threat at the time.†----- wtf? When exactly was it that they became a 'pronounced' threat? I know from experience that they were a 'pronounced threat' in '03.
Every time we left the gate, our focus was on the sides of the roads....you know, looking for those undefined threats.
July 18th, 2007 at 3:20 pmRingo!
Back under the desk, girl, and finish the job!
July 18th, 2007 at 3:20 pmI read an article that said they had purchased 400 of these....for the Iraqi army.
July 18th, 2007 at 3:21 pmAll you supporters of this administration should be saying "It's about time WE (not "they") woke up to this need".
July 18th, 2007 at 3:22 pmI read an article that said they had purchased 400 of these….for the Iraqi army.
Comment by willyloman
Hate to say it, but, uh...got a link? nevermind, if true, I'd rather hear it from you.
July 18th, 2007 at 3:24 pmThe current militarist regime only wants to spend money on offensive weapons systems, and shock and awe.
July 18th, 2007 at 3:25 pmThere is no shock and awe value from an armored vehicle which is rendered useless after a bomb attack.
That it saves troops from injury and death is of actually little concern.
This bears repeating, in bold:
if the Pentagon had stopped making excuses and starting producing MRAPs, “621 to 742 Americans†killed in IED attacks might still be alive.
Support our troops, my friggin' a$$!
Why does this administration hate our troops?
(oh, probably because they never had the f'ing gutz to serve!!!)
July 18th, 2007 at 3:26 pmGreat….Now can we stay and finish the job?
Comment by Ringo — July 18, 2007 @ 3:07 pm
Please define what "finish the job" means.
Or do we just have to wait until the Decider decides that the job is finished?
July 18th, 2007 at 3:26 pmThat it saves troops from injury and death is of actually little concern.
Comment by Raven
"...is of actually little concern to the weapons industies and their puppet generals and politicians.
July 18th, 2007 at 3:28 pm(whew, almost forgot the qualifier again.....;)
I can't defend this. Michael Hagee, for one, was a weak commandant, as he did nothing to help the service's acquisition crisis. General Conway is FAR better, as he's your 21st century Marine and is truly your enlisted man's general. On topic, he has great support for the MRAPs.
July 18th, 2007 at 3:33 pm"Great….Now can we stay and finish the job?
Comment by Ringo"
Sure, just as soon as I'm done finishing the job on your wife.
July 18th, 2007 at 3:35 pm#2- Ringo,
[..Great...Now we can stay and fisnish the job.]
--------------------------------------------
The job so far has been 'To Stay The Course' with some 'Surge' but we have been hearing about 'finshing the job' for so many years.
America ended World War II faster than this one.
It is no more about Saddam...it is about how to get out there safe,and with a government in place..than can be able to control its own people.
After so many years without electricity,water,basic necessities in Iraq.and on top of it,the thousands of Iraqis killed monthly, finishing the job becomes near impossible... Ringo, that depends on what's your description of the job.
July 18th, 2007 at 3:36 pm“Great….Now can we stay and finish the job?
Comment by Ringoâ€
Sure, just as soon as I’m done finishing the job on your wife.
Comment by J Lewd — July 18, 2007 @ 3:35 pm
That's not his wife -- that's his mom.
Weird. I know.
July 18th, 2007 at 3:37 pmWhy do those bastards hate our troops?
Who issued the order to quash the requests? Was it Bush, Cheney, Rove, Rumsfeld, Kissinger, Robertson, Powell??
Our troops are under a death sentence in Iraq and Afghanistan, and these bastards don't give a shit.
July 18th, 2007 at 3:39 pm“621 to 742 Americans†killed in IED attacks might still be alive.
Can we get the names of these Americans please?
July 18th, 2007 at 3:40 pmNow can we stay and finish the job?
Comment by Ringo
A recruitment office must be near your place.
July 18th, 2007 at 3:41 pm"I" is for Incompetence . . .
July 18th, 2007 at 3:41 pmWhy do those bastards hate our troops?
Comment by celtic cynic
Becuz they are tools. Like every other military forces in mankind history, poor people do the dying, rich people spread the fear and get the prize.
July 18th, 2007 at 3:44 pmWhy is this new? Tanks have been made this way since WW1. Only now it's being applied to other vehicles? Carbon-fiber airplanes and flat-bottomed combat vehicles. Huh??? The Army has always been backward compared to the other forces, but this is beyond the pale.
July 18th, 2007 at 3:49 pmThere is no doubt the MRAPS will come to be used. But only some will see Iraq. It's too damn late.
July 18th, 2007 at 3:49 pmPentagon bureacracy and an idiot for a Pres. are culpable in the murder of thousands.
Ringo,
Define "we."
July 18th, 2007 at 3:50 pmFrankly, I'm astounded that these vehicles have been available, but not ordered FOR ALL THIS TIME.
Didn't the King say the troops deserve "the best of everything?"
July 18th, 2007 at 3:52 pmWhen does that start?
Ringo:
If by "we" you mean "I", hop to it, patriot. I hear recruitment didn't meet it's quota for the second month in a row.
July 18th, 2007 at 3:53 pmI thought for a minute, now I get it: Hummers were made to sell at Chevy dealers to airhead yahoos, and some bright marketer figured maybe they could sell a few to the Army. The rest, as they say, is history.
July 18th, 2007 at 3:53 pmDidn’t the King say the troops deserve “the best of everything?â€
When does that start?
Comment by Zooey — July 18, 2007 @ 3:52 pm
"You go to war with the Army you have, not the Army you'd have if you pulled your head out of your ass!"
July 18th, 2007 at 3:54 pmJ Lewd sez:
To neocon apologists like Jingo, "we" means "everyone else".
July 18th, 2007 at 3:55 pmMiers is lying about the MRAP's not being "on the radar" when we decided to attack Iraq. She'd like everyone to believe such because, if they were available then and purposely NOT purchased, then the case for reparations to the families of our fallen soldiers (70% of which could have been avoided if they had these MRAP's!) will be a HUGE settlement. The Bush Administration would be taken to task on this issue when the class action lawsuit occurs. This is just more prima facie evidence against this government in it.
July 18th, 2007 at 3:56 pmDidn’t the King say the troops deserve “the best of everything?â€
When does that start?
Comment by Zooey
July 18th, 2007 at 3:57 pmThat seems to be the best they could do. This admin is just pathetic to watch. If my son goes back one more time I will personally escort him to Canada.
"best of everything" (not)....He forgot to tell us the "not" part. He was lying through his teeth even back then. Depose this despot now!
July 18th, 2007 at 3:58 pmEveryone remember the huge fuss that was kicked up about families having to provide body armor for their loved ones; not providing the proper equipment (MRAP's) would be definitely considered a "crime" of this president against his own people....sending them off to their grave with a royal boot in the derriere.
July 18th, 2007 at 3:59 pmGreat….Now can we stay and finish the job?
Comment by Ringo
Didn't you get the memo? Mission accomplished.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:00 pmThat's why they failed to label this mess as a "civil war" although it's been just that from the outset - not knowing exactly who the enemy is would be enough to make anyone crazy. Besides, intentionally making our troops the "target in the middle" is considered murder in my book.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:01 pmAnyone remember the ridiculous rant by the Liar In Chief about "the moment Iraq becomes a civil war, we will immediately take our troops out of harm's way"?? Another screw job on our military!
July 18th, 2007 at 4:02 pmEveryone remember the huge fuss that was kicked up about families having to provide body armor for their loved ones;
July 18th, 2007 at 4:03 pmComment by veritas
Yes. I bought my son his. And I agree it is murder.
lc ~ Make sure your son get the best of everything when his tours are done. Being in and around combat makes you kind of scary and shit.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:04 pmHe probably won't want to talk to you, or even a counselor, don't take no for an answer.
Again, best of everything to you and your family.
How much do these cost? What profit margins are being made on them? Because I have a less expensive way to save lives: bring the troops home. Anyone listening?
July 18th, 2007 at 4:04 pmIf this administration would fess up and tell the truth about the cost of this war as well as all anciliary costs associated with it - like providing health care for the veterans who are now handicapped as a result of it - the people would have been outraged. and for what? For what legitimate end result????
Is this all about "oil for people"?? Oil for Bush's greed? If so, he'd better be heading off to hiding in Paraguay real soon.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:04 pmFat chance, once it comes up for a vote, the minority will block that vote, too.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:05 pmAnd the rant that if Iraq's parliment votes to have us leave we will leave. Yeah, sure we'll leave.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:05 pmSo they finally have a plan for getting proper protecton for the IEDs. What about those that make the IEDs...any plan about that yet?
July 18th, 2007 at 4:05 pmleftcoast: My heart bleeds for you. My son was in the Navy aboard a nuclear submarine for 6 years and I worried every moment of every day! Fortunately, he had the presence of mind to get out before the Iraq stuff kicked in. My gratitude to your son for being the patriot whom he truly is and I will keep him in my heart until he is safely returned home to you.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:07 pmHow much do these cost? What profit margins are being made on them? Because I have a less expensive way to save lives: bring the troops home. Anyone listening?
Comment by Ben B — July 18, 2007 @ 4:04 pm
*crickets*
July 18th, 2007 at 4:07 pmI never thought very highly of Michael Huggie.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:07 pmlc ~ Make sure your son get the best of everything when his tours are done. Being in and around combat makes you kind of scary and shit.
He probably won’t want to talk to you, or even a counselor, don’t take no for an answer.
Again, best of everything to you and your family.
Comment by RUCerious
July 18th, 2007 at 4:07 pmI spent 4 years dealing with returning Viet Nam vets on our Air Force mental health unit. Thanks for the reminder. And thank you for your genuine concern.
The makers of the MRAP must have made a very big contribution to the Republic Party. Or somehow they have become a FOB. That is the only reason why I can think that the military would be buying these vehicles now. It certainly has nothing to do with protecting our troops. They have had the ability to do that for a very long time and continue not to protect them. Just like the Dragon Skin body armor. The troops can't have it, but they give it to the contractors like Blackwater and they give it to visiting VIP's.
This administration does not support our troops in any way.
Support our Troops - Bring them Home!
July 18th, 2007 at 4:08 pmleftcoast: Didn't Iraq's parliament already vote last month for us to leave? Seems to me they did. This week alone they've been saying "go" "we don't need you anymore".....and then they take the month of August off for vacation. I don't get it at all! Perhaps I'm old fashioned but this nonsense is beginning to really stink!
July 18th, 2007 at 4:08 pmThe technology for IED's is at best primitive when the full potential of this kind of device is considered. An intelligent metallurgist could develop devices with penetrating power that far exceed that of the current copper projectile. It turns out that copper has the correct melting point, thermal conductivity, malleability and atomic mass for this kind of projectile if about 1 inch (2.54 cm) of flat alloy steel is to be penetrated.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:09 pmKatie: If it smells like a rat, skulks like a rat....you know the drill. Let's find out precisely who these "war profiteers" are - and their Board of Directors which should be public information. No doubt, this late in the game, they're running the table to get in on the money action.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:09 pmThere is no shock and awe value from an armored vehicle which is rendered useless after a bomb attack.
That it saves troops from injury and death is of actually little concern.
Of course!
Because it's far cheaper to replace dead soldiers and an under-armored humvee than an expensive vehicle like the MRAP. Take it from the Rumsfeld management philosophy: 19 year old kids are cheap, disposable and there is an unlimited supply.
In George Bush's holy war, the ends will justify the means.
Oh, and don't think that this "change of heart" isn't well timed. In the next few days look for Repukelican whore-shills to be excreting THIS talking point: By preventing a vote on the War Spending bill, the Democrats are preventing the soldiers from getting MRAPs. They don't support the troops!
July 18th, 2007 at 4:10 pmleftcoast: Didn’t Iraq’s parliament already vote last month for us to leave?
Veritas- I thought this too. I was unsure to cite it.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:10 pmYou're not old fashioned. They said they don't need our support. Let's leave.
And this August recess is dispicable.
As far as this move having one ounce of legitimacy, I'd say that's it's a case of too little/too late. And now let's see who will profit from this mega sale. I'd bet that people in the Bush Cabal are either shareholders or on the B of D.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:10 pmGive the troops the money to build these vehicles, and then throw everyone who was in charge during that time in jail for manslaughter for all the soldiers that died because they ignored the reports.
Freaking incredible. Just when you think this administration couldn't get worse, they go and pull something out of their arses that make them look worse.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:12 pmThis entire war has been about profit.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:12 pm"and then they take the month of August off for vacation."
puppets melt at 120 degrees
July 18th, 2007 at 4:12 pmleftcoast: I am a extremely spiritual individual but not "religious" after studying many religious paths. I do believe in the power of prayer however but in a much different form that my christian upbringing attempted to inculcate. I believe that pure, wholesome thought can be prayer; I believe that positive energy sent from one individual to another has power. So, in this way, I will hold sacred positive (prayerful) space for your son that he will be home soon, healthy and whole in every way.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:13 pmI’d bet that people in the Bush Cabal are either shareholders or on the B of D.
Comment by veritas — July 18, 2007 @ 4:10 pm
They are NOW. That's what took them so long to act.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:15 pm"Last month, Gates claimed that he had only recently learned about the benefits of MRAPs from reading a newspaper article,"
And the republicans consider themselves to be strong on defense and their leading defense guy just admitted to not knowing abotu a military vehicle that all of us have known about forever?
And it is another admittion of incompetence by a Bush appointee.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:16 pmleftcoast: No doubt you'd come to terms with the concept of supporting your son while not necessarily supporting this war. I've always had a stronger belief in peace than war and believe that war should be engaged only as a last resort when one is under attack themselves. I would often find it curious when socializing with navy families that they couldn't seem to separate the two. No doubt early on in this debacle, it was amazingly challenging for anyone to not feel that in not buying this war, they were somehow betraying their loved one in the military. Now, though, it's clear that it is possible to do so and the american people are doing just that in their demand to bring our troops home - now!
July 18th, 2007 at 4:16 pmWhat about those that make the IEDs…any plan about that yet?
Comment by dlet
Oh, you communist!!! Now we cant have people profiteering from other dead people. Shame on you. Free trade all the way. /sarc and stupidity
July 18th, 2007 at 4:17 pm#68 Spudge: do you really believe that? Puppet Gates will spout anything he is told. I'm skeptical that they weren't aware that these vehicles existed back then. Let's dig deeper into it.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:17 pmunarmored vehicles and lack of body armor has stuck in my craw the whole time.
While this is good news, it is 5 years late.
And not one commanding officer will be found to be responsible for this falacy, like everything else in this war.
It is the troops in the field that pay the price for neglect and impropper planning from the Sec of Defence down to each and every officer involved.
68 days till my son returns from Iraq from his current tour.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:18 pmVeritas- I thank you for your prayerful thoughts.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:18 pmFaith doesn't erase pain. As you know from my writings that I am a christian. I don't want a country dominated by christians nor is that what our church believes. It is just that we'd like to have as many as possible take time to listen. But, in no way will I project my faith and to have it be used against our pluralistic society.
When I was in the service I trained with the German army for a while and they had vehicles like this way back in the early 1980's. V-shaped hulls, tires that self sealed, or baring catastrophic failure they could run on the rims etc... So we have no excuse for not having these sort of vehicles in large numbers, they have been around for a long time. A very important question that is not getting asked is why the replacement for the venerable Jeep now appears to be our main combat vehicle. It, the hummer, is now performing a job it was not designed to perform.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:18 pmThat seems to be the best they could do. This admin is just pathetic to watch. If my son goes back one more time I will personally escort him to Canada.
Comment by leftcoast
Let me know if you need any help doing that. It's sick, the things they're putting our kids through.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:19 pm68 days till my son returns from Iraq from his current tour.
Comment by Wayne
July 18th, 2007 at 4:20 pmMy prayers are with you. Honestly and earnestly. Blessings.
leftcoast: Faith is what keeps all of us going. It is the strongest emotion in the universe. I am also a christian and have always been so...I've concluded that, for me, organized religion of any type, becomes counterproductive to my spirituality. The ones I've experienced eventually become defining, exclusionary, contradictory, or judgmental. I hold my beliefs to be sacred and within. I've never felt a need for an intermediary between myself and God, in the variety of forms he/she comes packaged in. Keep the faith - it's a very powerful tool.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:21 pmLet me know if you need any help doing that. It’s sick, the things they’re putting our kids through.
Comment by Zooey
July 18th, 2007 at 4:21 pmZooey, Thanks so much. Your a good soul.
#68 Spudge: do you really believe that?
Comment by veritas — July 18, 2007 @ 4:17 pm
Heh, of course I don't he is just making an excuse for the incompitent administration.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:23 pmWayne: You also have a son there, too? My heart breaks when I hear what our kids are going through for this nutcase who's in charge of it all. Will keep a prayerful space within for him.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:24 pm68 days till my son returns from Iraq from his current tour.
Comment by Wayne — July 18, 2007 @ 4:18 pm
I'm keeping a positive thought and energy for you and your son in my meditations.
Peace...
July 18th, 2007 at 4:24 pmorganized religion of any type, becomes counterproductive to my spirituality. The ones I’ve experienced eventually become defining, exclusionary, contradictory, or judgmental. I hold my beliefs to be sacred and within. I’ve never felt a need for an intermediary between myself and God
Comment by veritas
I wish I could have used your words in an earlier thread.....well said!
July 18th, 2007 at 4:24 pmThe ones I’ve experienced eventually become defining, exclusionary, contradictory, or judgmental.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:24 pmComment by veritas
Veritas, That's why I sought out a church that although there are some rightwingers around, that for the most part support your sentiments exactly. Our pastor is extremly against the church attempting to dictate policy and he draws the line when he hears it.
68 days till my son returns from Iraq from his current tour.
Comment by Wayne
Trust me, he's counting down the days, too.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:25 pmThis is just like the story about the Trophey System. It's a RPG defense system that has been operational for 3 years and in service for a while now, but the Pentagon refuses to use it and protect our troops with it because a defense contractor has a multi-million dollar deal to research and develop one. They say that one might be operational in 3 to 5 years.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:26 pmThere is no need for an intermediary between anyone and God. In the letter to the Hebrews this is made quite clear.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:26 pmOr the Dragon skin body armor that the DOD banned their soldiers from using, even though it is proven to be better than what the Army has a contract to provide.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:27 pm68 days till my son returns from Iraq from his current tour.
Comment by Wayne — July 18, 2007 @ 4:18 pm
68 days of dreading that knock at the door.
F**k you, Bush, Cheney, and all your enablers!
Wayne & leftcoast, you and your sons are brave and honorable. May all come home safely soon.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:27 pmSpudge: Whenever I find myself actually believing something relevant from one of their mouths, I realize that it's a double con involved. Gates is Bush's mouthpiece (after all he goes back to Bush 41 and is an intimate family friend) so I always ask myself the same question when it appears that they are experiencing an "epiphany" or a "moment of truth"....what is really going on here? What would Rove be up to with this new pony trick???
Let's face it - at face value, it gives the appearance that Gates is criticizing the administration for it's incompetence; however, in the larger picture which may occur down the road.....is he setting the incompetent stage once again for all of us to fall for as he's done with the Gonzo hearings, etc.??? Or is he setting the incompetent stage for us so that when the class action suits spring forth soon, they can claim "we didn't know". It's a hellova lot of less dinero and possible jail time to claim "ignorance" versus "intentional murder", isn'it it?
July 18th, 2007 at 4:27 pmZooey, Thanks so much. Your a good soul.
Comment by leftcoast
Thank you, lc. Or sons and daughters are worth whatever it takes to keep them safe -- from our government.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:28 pmleftcoast,
Thanks=)
Is your son currently there or stateside now?
July 18th, 2007 at 4:28 pmThese multiple deployments are really wearing our troops out.
My brother in law is also in Iraq, I am not sure when he is due back.
leftcoast: Sounds like you've definitely found your niche! I know that you cherish it - whatever works for the individual is what's best for that individual. I'll bet your congregation provide much emotional support for you and your family at this time. That's so critical to each of us when we are experiencing stress involving a loved one.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:29 pmHi Zooey - Yes, our children are our treasures. Now the problem will be how to keep them safe from within.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:30 pmGodspeed to all who are in harms way. It's comforting to see hands extended in friendship on this site. I wish your sons (and daughters) safe returns home. Home to stay if we can help it.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:31 pmIs your son currently there or stateside now?
These multiple deployments are really wearing our troops out.
My brother in law is also in Iraq, I am not sure when he is due back.
Comment by Wayne
July 18th, 2007 at 4:31 pmStateside, Wayne. He anticipates orders within the month. And more prayers for your brother-in-law. May he come home to you safely.
Spudge: Consider this - MRAP's = Bush's Thirtysomething Administration - the creation of "incompetence" to exonerate the real evildoers.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:31 pmGodspeed is right - hearfelt well wishes to Wayne and Leftcoast. We'll all be counting the days with you. Wayne: Is that around Sept. 24? We'll have to hold a TP celebration on that day. Let us know so we can hold a mental heart vigil along with you for his safe return.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:34 pmveritas,
July 18th, 2007 at 4:34 pmI guess you're right. It is a niche. I don't speak of the situation too often with folks there. There are so many of us there in need of support. I guess my attendance isn't about me, but about them. I think that's what it's all about anyway.
You're also a good soul. You, Zooey and Wayne.
We’ll have to hold a TP celebration on that day. Let us know so we can hold a mental heart vigil along with you for his safe return.
Comment by veritas
July 18th, 2007 at 4:36 pmExcellent idea! I'll be here.
leftcoast: I've always told my son that family "is all we have". I now qualify that thought....by adding "supportive friends and family are all we have". You are a good soul, too. Thank you for your candor about your faith. Faith CAN move mountains.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:36 pmleftcoast: Any countdown information yet on your son's return? We'll hold a TP celebration for him as well.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:37 pmOK - If IEDs weren't a significant problem in Feb 2005, lets get a list of those maimed and killed in the second half of 2005 and see if their families agree that IEDs weren't significant.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:37 pmMust go....and prepare some dinner for my starving family *(including my cats!). I'll look for all of you later on. Isn't it marvelous to be able to communicate with each other without the intrusion of nonsensical troll blabber? I'm lovin it!
July 18th, 2007 at 4:38 pmveritas-
July 18th, 2007 at 4:41 pmCandor about my faith? Perhaps the internet is easier for me. I have fears of being candid. For most people we feel a fear of rejection when we profess something so dear to us.
Your son has a good parent.
Department of Defense: Support Our Troops. Eventually.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:43 pmStateside, Wayne. He anticipates orders within the month. And more prayers for your brother-in-law. May he come home to you safely.
Comment by leftcoast
Thanks again
Lets home your son does not have to deploy again.
We need to force Washington to end this.
My son, when he joined the Guard never dreamed he would be sent overseas, even though I warned him I had a bad feeling Bush would get us into a War, especially with Dick "PNAC" Cheney as Vice.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:47 pmWhen you combine this with the Republicans' use of little toy "purple hearts" at the 2004 convention, you wonder why they hate the troops so much.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:50 pmWayne,
July 18th, 2007 at 4:51 pmI remember before my mother and I talking about GWB way before he was first nominated. Our summation was that he would indeed get us into a war.
All the best to you and family.
This is what you get with an administration whose priorities places cronies profits ahead of equiping soldiers. And everything else for that matter- national security, the environment, education, etc.
July 18th, 2007 at 4:52 pmWayne: Is that around Sept. 24? We’ll have to hold a TP celebration on that day. Let us know so we can hold a mental heart vigil along with you for his safe return.
Comment by veritas
Yes, That is what he told me and we plan on a night out on the town, listening to live music here in Austin =)
July 18th, 2007 at 5:00 pmYes, That is what he told me and we plan on a night out on the town, listening to live music here in Austin =)
Comment by Wayne — July 18, 2007 @ 5:00 pm
Some of the best music in the whole country!
July 18th, 2007 at 5:03 pmYou know, the truly sad thing is when administrators at the Pentagon hear the term "armored Hummers" they think about buying a pack of Trojans and heading to a DC cathouse.
July 18th, 2007 at 5:12 pmComment by J Lewd — July 18, 2007 @ 5:12 pm
I thought I heard 'em giggling, I just figured they were laughing all the way to the bank.
July 18th, 2007 at 5:15 pmSo the Pentagon has "found a way to accelerate production" but "it's going to take a little extra money." How exactly are "they" finally going to step up production? Exactly how much of this additional $1.3 billion is "a little extra money?" This delay has been sickening and unconscionable. Even more disturbing is how by not delivering vehicles in a timely manner military contractors can simply request more money to do what they were contractually bound to do in the first place. Force Protection's stock rises while more soldiers die.
AF
July 18th, 2007 at 5:17 pmHey, Wayne. Wimberley here! Enjoying some more rain that's keeping the Hill Country awesomely green this year.
July 18th, 2007 at 5:20 pmJust to add some facts - such as they are.
Today, an MRAP costs between $600,000 and $1 million.
The current “rule of thumb†for enlisted (recruit, train, equip, pay benefits) casualties average $500,000 dollars while officers, depending upon their military occupation range from one to two million dollars each. This means the average light tactical vehicle with one officer and four enlisted personnel is protecting 2.5 million dollars of the DOD's budget.
July 18th, 2007 at 5:29 pmHey, Wayne. Wimberley here! Enjoying some more rain that’s keeping the Hill Country awesomely green this year.
Comment by Candyce
Yeah I just got back from venturing in the rain to grab a burger for my lunch break, the company cafe closes at 4 and my lunch is at 4 today hehe.
July 18th, 2007 at 5:34 pmWimberly is beautiful, I love stopping at Wimberly Glassworks now and then
I still maintain what I've said before. Simple physics dictates that explosives rapidly lose their effectiveness with increased distance from the target, often inversely to the square or cube of the distance (particularly for larger distances). The most effective and cheapest means of conferring resistance to explosives is to maintain a sufficient distance from them. As I pointed out, a distance of some 6000 kilometres should make even the cheapest and flimsiest troop carrier quite safe from any mines in Iraq.
Cheers,
July 18th, 2007 at 5:47 pmGates is incompetent and should be fired!
July 18th, 2007 at 6:11 pmardee: Unfortunately, the "incompetency effect" is throughout this administration - just look at the thirtysomething fall guys/gals holding key offices and they've all pled "just didn't know". They're setting up the incompetency platform throughout the administration as an attempt to immunize and isolate themselves from complicity when the people vs. Bush/Cheney lawsuit comes about.
July 18th, 2007 at 6:24 pmBesides, with regard to the Pentagon stepping up production of this new vehicle, why do it now when supposedly we're de-escalating soon? Maybe because that's all a big fat lie, too?
July 18th, 2007 at 6:26 pm...if the Pentagon had stopped making excuses and starting producing MRAPs, “621 to 742 Americans†killed in IED attacks might still be alive.
so... did anyone point out the OTHER obvious benefit of such a
production??? ... like jobs, no plant closures...
jeez... the ww2 citizens are surely confounded about that...
July 18th, 2007 at 7:03 pm...
There must have been some contracts of less -safe vehicles that needed to be completed before they would order this new batch of armored humvees.
Why don't Republicans and Bush support the troops?
July 18th, 2007 at 7:20 pmToday Bush said a 3 1/2% raise for them is too much.
Why are people sitll standing by Bush?
68 days till my son returns from Iraq from his current tour.
Comment by Wayne — July 18, 2007 @ 4:18 pm
We will be counting the days here too, Wayne.
July 18th, 2007 at 7:23 pmFrom the original USA Today article on this from a few days ago: "Even as the Pentagon balked at buying MRAPs for U.S. troops, USA TODAY found that the military pushed to buy them for a different fighting force: the Iraqi army."
That's right, folks. This administration's no-bid, cronie war-profiteering scam produced a system where up to 741 of our soldiers were killed because they wouldn't give our soldiers something they gave to the Iraqi army.
Bush supporters: are you proud?
July 18th, 2007 at 8:11 pmI don't see any trolls on this discussion and that's a good thing, but you have to notice that this is an issue they won't touch with a ten foot poll. They's rather be over there on the Matthews-Miller lovefest making snide remarks about how hysterical lefties are. What unbelieveable cowards.
July 18th, 2007 at 8:23 pmRet. Col. JR
July 18th, 2007 at 9:34 pmThat is a disgusting news item, which you put into perfect context. Our guys died for lack of proper equipment, while the "good stuff" was given to the Iraqi army first.
As I said before, they must have had some contractual leftovers that they wanted to use up before the new no-bid contract was begun.
And our guys pay the price.
AND Bush doesn't want to increase military pay either - from a news item today.
He says he supports the troops, and his lemmings believe him -- they are blind. If they opened their eyes they would see the truth, but that would mean they have to admit their own stupidity.
Let's call this delay in providing our troops over in Iraq with proper equipment, no matter what the cost, what it really is...MURDER.
Or, I guess, due to the Rumsfeld-run/Republican-run/"loyal Bushie"-run Pentagon's long delay in even placing an order for these soldier-saving MRAPs, a better criminal description would be that all the Republicans involved should be charged with being accessories to MURDER.
And Republicans have the sheer audacity to claim that they "support the troops"!!!!!
Tax cuts for the wealthiest during a time of war, at a time when as much taxpayer money as possible and necessary should be going to our soldiers and the war effort.
Bush attacking Iraq, and getting our soldiers killed there, even though Iraq had nothing to do with the 9/11 attacks. And if Bush started the Iraq War because of some insane grudge he had against Saddam Hussein, then the blood of all of our soldiers who've died in that Iraq hell-hole is dripping from his fingertips.
The "inherent contempt" Bush administration throwing exorbitant amounts of taxpayer money at all their crony Republicans pals in the military-industrial defense network, while not being willing to pay the extra money for MRAPs that could have saved countless American G.I. lives and stopped countless American G.I.'s from being severely maimed and crippled over in Bush's war in Iraq.
I thought I'd reached the upper limit on my outrage-ometer over the most corrupt and vile administration in American history...until I read this USA Today front-page article on July 2nd about these long held-back MRAPs. If a Republican now says to me that Republicans "support the troops," I'll slap them upside their lying heads.
I served in the U.S. Air Force during Vietnam. I know what "supporting the troops" really means and involves. And the Bush administration has shown time and time again that instead of supporting our troops, they have what seems to be an "inherent contempt" for our military and our soldiers placed in harm's way.
July 18th, 2007 at 10:00 pm68 days till my son returns from Iraq from his current tour.
Comment by Wayne — July 18, 2007 @ 4:18 pm
Wow, two-digit midget...that's the scary time. I wish you and your son well! Peace in brings peace out.
July 18th, 2007 at 11:47 pmYes, Dragon Skin armor for the troops would be good, plus, if you get shot while wearing one and survive because of the armor, you get a free (non armored) jacket...
http://www.pinnaclearmor.com/dragon-skin-survivors.php
July 19th, 2007 at 6:00 amOne of the things that kills me about this story is that MRAPs are manufactured by at least a dozen countries; the Pentagon could have bought these things of the shelf for pocket change, along with the necessary spares and tools.
July 19th, 2007 at 12:39 pmWell America seems to like it's big SUV's! Guaranteed, the British Army uses Armored Rovers which don't offer ideal protection but compared to Hummers, they are much more efficient especially thanks to the "cage" which was implemented as a defence against both RPG's and IED's, why did the Pentagon withhold such a life-saving measure when they are quite literally a couple of bars that offer vital protection to the occupants!
July 21st, 2007 at 11:48 amUnbelievable! I was in the South African army in 1974 and we already had the V shaped bottom on the troop carriers back then.
It took this lot 33 years to "catch up"!!
These guys are a joke. It's not their asses on the line. Maybe if each 1 had to have their own child in the armed forces they would be more focused on pragmatic outcomes.
July 22nd, 2007 at 11:53 pm