Industry-Led Smear Campaign Against SiCKO Makes Its Way To Drudge
Industry-Led Smear Campaign Against SiCKO Makes Its Way To Drudge
Currently atop the Drudge Report is a gigantic ad by “Health Care America,” which states, “In America you wait in line to see a movie. In government-run healthcare systems, you wait to see a doctor”:
The ad is part of the industry-led smear campaign against Michael Moore’s movie SiCKO. The group is “financed in part by pharmaceutical and hospital companies.” Its Advisory Board includes President Bush’s former HHS Secretary Tommy Thompson. In June, the organization “staged a conference call that drew nearly 20 reporters from around the country,” with the purpose of discussing “what Michael Moore left out of his movie.”
Additionally, the PR firm MultiVu is distributing a “fake news video” smearing SiCKO. The firm receives funding from Health Care America.
These industry-funded organizations attacking Moore argue that the United States has the best health care system in the world. But in reality, the United States is behind in preventing asthma-related deaths, vaccinating children against polio, and providing flu shots to seniors. Americans also, on average, die at a younger age compared to the average age of death of comparable nations. Yet health spending “per capita in the United States is much higher than in other countries — at least 24% higher than in the next highest spending countries, and over 90% higher than in many other countries that we would consider global competitors.”
UPDATE: Michael Moore will be conducting a live chat at Crooks and Liars on Sunday afternoon at 4pm (EST), 1pm (PT).
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All the health care numbers you could ever need are here. This summary includes comparisons of the American health care system relative to other countries and between the states, plus data on the uninsured, rising health care costs, the woes of Medicare and Medicaid and more.
For all the details, see:
July 21st, 2007 at 10:06 pm"SiCKO Required Reading: U.S. Health Care by the Numbers."
Yes, that's why I prefer the American health care system. I don't have to wait in line to hear about the treatments that are going to bankrupt me, or that my HMO says I can't have.
July 21st, 2007 at 10:07 pmOMFG. THis is hilarious!!!
July 21st, 2007 at 10:11 pmNerd attack.
if you get the chance, listen to RING OF FIRE on AirAmericaRadio
tomorrow... it's a rebroadcast of today's show...
bobby interviewed: Jonathan Cohn, author of Sick: The Untold Story of America's Health Care
it was a very interesting talk...
July 21st, 2007 at 10:13 pmyou can stream at link above... the rebroadcast on sunday
is 8-10pm eastern...
The ad is part of the industry-led smear campaign against Michael Moore’s movie SiCKO.
How is this a smear ?
Moore made a movie highligting all the drawbacks of the US health care system and promoting all the benefits of public health care systems around the world without mentioning the inherent drawback this results in.
You're calling the biggest problem with public health care that plagues every system worldwide -- the wait list for surgery -- as a smear.
If you want to suggest this isn't an accurate assessment then just say that. I think everyone will figure out why you haven't though. Even if they pretend they haven't.
July 21st, 2007 at 10:17 pmoh, and there's alway the podcast of RING OF FIRE...
July 21st, 2007 at 10:18 pmgreat show!
Obviously, the health care monopoly forgets one critical factor in their smear campaign - that every american has personally experienced the horrible health care industry in this country first hand. They've totally lost it if they believe that any puff piece they conjure up will not fly in the face of the reality of each american's personal health care nightmare. How utterly sick-o!
July 21st, 2007 at 10:18 pmEven if they pretend they haven’t.
Comment by Kilo
I'm too tired to deal w/ this idiot tonight. I'll leave it up to the rest of you to hand him his head on a platter.
July 21st, 2007 at 10:19 pmWe've witnessed Bushco attempt to rewire history; this is comical in that they actually believe that they, Big Pharma/Big Health Insurance would have a chance of rewriting each of our experiences with this system. This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Nice try Big HealthCare .... and thanks for playing!
July 21st, 2007 at 10:21 pmI’ll leave it up to the rest of you to hand him his head on a platter.
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity
In fact, Kilo deals with himself every night. He just nitpicks some comment made by TP and use a 20 y/o philosophy-student-rethoric in order to sound educated but makes no point whatsoever and completely ignores the issue at hand. Night after night. As irrelevant as Jake and Mr. P, in my opinion.
July 21st, 2007 at 10:25 pmKilo:
It's not a smear at all, but to Leftists, anything that doesn't fit their ideological views is seen as a threat or a smear.
July 21st, 2007 at 10:25 pmKlaus: AMEN, brother!
(The 2nd comment in the whole thread)
Stop the lies. Stop the smears. You shouldn't have to be rich to get health-care.
July 21st, 2007 at 10:28 pmIt’s not a smear at all, but to Leftists, anything that doesn’t fit their ideological views is seen as a threat or a smear.
Comment by Kalashnikov
Keep telling yourself that, Mr P, and you'll end up believing it. And then, you'll be even more f*cked than you already are.
July 21st, 2007 at 10:29 pmBTW, every concerned, working, ethical healthcare professional I've talked to says the system is broken.
July 21st, 2007 at 10:30 pmLet's not forget about those that only wish to have an opportunity to wait in line. Ridiculous ad.
July 21st, 2007 at 10:30 pmBut they don't know anything, they just work in the field. I'm sure Kilo and Kali know more ** cough... cough **.
July 21st, 2007 at 10:31 pmThere is a 'tiny' problem with your write-up, though.
America is behind in Polio vaccinations because we ridded the disease 30 years ago... we don't have to vaccinate people anymore :)
Everything else is spot-on though.
We rank, IIRC, 34th in global life span... that's pretty sad. Canada's? #11.
July 21st, 2007 at 10:31 pmThis is actually really sad. If people wanted to ridicule the Drudge Report, they could go there themselves.
Why is TP devoting an entire thread to an ad at the Drudge Report?
Slow news day?
Disappointed that Bush's procedure turned out just fine?
It's funny, you Leftists always need someone or something to hate...
July 21st, 2007 at 10:37 pm"but to Leftists, anything that doesn’t fit their ideological views is seen as a threat or a smear."
Comment by Kalashnikov
Or as a joke. Your commentary fits in that category...
July 21st, 2007 at 10:39 pmIn America you wait in line to see a movie. In government-run healthcare systems, you wait to see a doctor
Crap we must have this now, because every time I go to the doctor at my scheduled time I wait, and wait and wait and wait. Took my girlfriend a month ago for Lasik and waited an hour and a half. And insurance doesn't cover that, even though it's cheaper than glasses/contacts.
For a great example of what govt controlled corporation can do take a look at the US Postal Service, still the worlds best, cheapest, and most efficient postal service. And unlike what many people think it receives NO MONEY from taxes, and is the only corporation required to keep an office open in almost every city in the USA. These run at a loss all year long, but still manages to make a profit, as well pay employees a livable wage and benefits too.
July 21st, 2007 at 10:44 pmIn federal lobbying alone, healthcare spending exceeded $2.2 billion the past decade, during which healthcare surpassed all other industry sectors in lobbying expenditures.
NewsMax.com Wires
Friday, June 22, 2007
WASHINGTON -- Massive spending by the healthcare industry is swamping the nation's political process, according to the findings of a new report issued today. It coincides with the premiere of Michael Moore's new documentary "SiCKO," a searing indictment of the U.S. healthcare system which opens nationwide June 29.
Moore's film is simply attemting to place balance in the huge dollars spent by the healthcare industry to make us think they're the best.
July 21st, 2007 at 10:45 pmObviously, the health care monopoly forgets one critical factor in their smear campaign - that every american has personally experienced the horrible health care industry in this country first hand. They’ve totally lost it if they believe that any puff piece they conjure up will not fly in the face of the reality of each american’s personal health care nightmare. How utterly sick-o!
Comment by veritas
The problem is that you're not taking envy into account. What I've encountered a lot over the last few years are people who have terrible or non-existent medical insurance and, rather than being angry at their employers or angry at the corporate/political alliance that denies them rights their parents may have learned to take for granted, they simply resent anyone who has decent coverage. And, of course, anyone who works for a government agency and has largely sacrificed pay increases for good health insurance comes in for particular rage.
There is a solid uncurrent of "if I can't have it, no one can have it!" that helps to undermine what was once a sense of solidarity among the working- and middle-class. Now it's pretty much everyone for himself.
July 21st, 2007 at 10:47 pmKnow more how ?
You mean like living in a country with a public health care system ?
Watching and reading the news in such a country where the stories about chronic shortages of resources, people going without care or dying as a result of delays isn't pinned on HMOs but another culprit ?
Do you know anything about the drawbacks of the health care system in your country ?
Yeah well people in other countries with public health care systems know about theirs.
It's a pretty simple concept. Try to wrap your head around it.
And just like you can hear about the drawbacks ofthe US system from US citizens you can hear about the drawbacks of foreign systems from foreigners. But you won't.
Not from Sicko, not from this place and not from anyone who needs to rely on such an obviously one-sided arguement in order to advance a position.
This shit is so slanted it makes the Swift Boat Ads look like a documentary series.
July 21st, 2007 at 10:48 pmIt’s funny, you Leftists always need someone or something to hate…
Comment by Kalashnikov — July 21, 2007 @ 10:37 pm
No we don't "need" any thing, we have idiots like you and Bush, and the rest of his criminal cabal.
July 21st, 2007 at 10:49 pmThat "some comment made by TP" that I'm nitpicking being the topic of the story.
July 21st, 2007 at 10:52 pmYeah, why do I focus on irrelevant details like that.
We have no health care "system" in the U.S. -- just a series of stovepipes that seem to have competing priorities and often leave what is best for the patient out of the equation.
We do, however, have a broken health insurance system. SICKO hits it right on the mark. It is, indeed, unfortunate that Big Pharma and for-profit hospital systems and insurance companies don't have the integrity to admit to the problems and set about helping to find and fund solutions.
Health care consumes a disproportionate share of our GNP and is increasing at an alarming rate. In its current form, its cost threatens our competitiveness and burdens our federal budget. Our choice is not between the status quo and a "British" or "Canadian" system. Our choice is between the status quo and a unique and transformed "American" system. The kind of tripe that appeared on Drudge and that can be heard on right-wing wacko radio talk shows ads nothing to the national debate that we must begin having before we can move forward to fix this.
July 21st, 2007 at 10:55 pmCan anyone answer my question:
Why is TP devoting an entire thread to an ad at the Drudge Report?
July 21st, 2007 at 10:59 pmYou’re calling the biggest problem with public health care that plagues every system worldwide — the wait list for surgery — as a smear.
If you want to suggest this isn’t an accurate assessment then just say that. I think everyone will figure out why you haven’t though. Even if they pretend they haven’t.
Comment by Kilo
Right we don't have a wait list for surgury. Because so many people don't have health insurance they can't have needed surgery. Heck, they can't even find out that they need the surgery because most doctors won't see somebody without insurance. But if you have to go to an emergency room you'll see where the wait is even if you have insurance. Because all those uncovered people will be at the ER getting catastrophic care they couldn't get diagnosed like normal people should.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:00 pmAnd that report goes on to tell you who's in the pockets of said evil lobbyists....
Democratic Sen. Hillary Clinton and Republican Sen. John McCain together received over 40% of healthcare industry contributions among the 18 major party declared candidates.
...which is why you're gonna see as much reform in the health care sector as a result of Sicko as you did in firearms from Bowling For Columbine.
I'm gonna be interested to see how Sicko stories TP can run without once mentioning that particular lady who gets singled out by the film as the shining example of a bought-out shill.
What are we up to now, 10 ?
I mean you could understand her going unmentioned if there wasn't something like, I dunno, a Presidential campaign going on at the moment with a clear front runner.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:02 pmKilo, Kalashnikov,
Do your homework before you embarrass yourself more. How do you defend more resources and money going for less results? Before you refer to your incorrect talking points about wait times list the drawbacks of the better healthcare systems of France Canada England etc.
They pay more in taxes but a responsible and honest conservative has to admit the fact that when ALL revenue tax and out of money spent WE, THE USA pays the most and we do not have the longevity or care these other countries system have.
Therefore why do you salute a lower quality and less efficient system? Did you lose the ability to be objective? You wouldn't salute waste would you? Then why do you let fear cloud your judgement.
We already have socialized medicine for the elderly and veterans. We already have socilaized services in Fire, police, Libraries etc.
Do not be afraid of improving an inadequete system leaving 40 million plus uninsured adding to our collective burden and costs. That is financially and morally irresponsible.
Go ahead and prove your position now. List the advantages and disadvantages. That is if you know what your talking about and are not a simpleton ditto head.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:04 pmAmerica is behind in Polio vaccinations because we ridded the disease 30 years ago… we don’t have to vaccinate people anymore :)
Comment by jake3988
Sorry, there's still cases of polio in the US every year. All school children need polio vaccines to attend. Smallpox was eracidated and I believe they stopped giving vaccines for that.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:04 pmIs this what hue-manna calls compassion?
How does a theater compare to Hospice? Does a crowd of people get into a doctors office, seat themselves, partake of popped corn and cool beverage, then are all treated at once and leave at the same time?
July 21st, 2007 at 11:04 pmKilo- Nothing will change regarding healtcare. The only seats at the table will be the industry itself. It has dems and repubs in their pockets.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:06 pmI just hope that one day healthcare will be administered by doctors and not clerks in cubicles at an insurance company.
Comment by Heterodoxy — July 21, 2007 @ 11:04 pm
You addressed me, but have still not answered my question. I repeat:
Why is TP devoting an entire thread to an ad at the Drudge Report?
July 21st, 2007 at 11:07 pmComment by shane — July 21, 2007 @ 11:00 pm
And that's a terrible situation shane.
But one that's already been adequately mentioned. In the film, in stories about the film like the one you see here and in comments like yours.
What is yet to be seen is any examination of the drawbacks of those systems promoted as alternatives. Missing from the film, from stories about the film like the one you see here and in comments like yours.
If I talk about a one-sided arguement it's not an indication I'm after some more of that one side explained.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:07 pmI agree with Michael Moore's statement that healthcare should not be a "for profit" industry.
If you're in it "for the money", then you are in it for a morally reprehensible reason (I'm atheist, but those who are not can reference I Timothy 6:10), and there is simply no justifying that.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:07 pmKalashnikov,
July 21st, 2007 at 11:09 pmYou may new here. Both are political blogs and therefore often scrutinized and critiqued. Not rocket science. Now that I answered your harmless question I await your answer.
Comment by Heterodoxy — July 21, 2007 @ 11:09 pm
"Kalashnikov" isn't a new poster, just an unwanted one using a new name. Though he denies it, he uses the same phrases, talking points, and putdowns as "Mr. P" (and all his characters.) I would be surprised if you got a response worthy of continuing the conversation.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:13 pmKalashnikov
Kilo
et.al.
This is really a non-brainer non-partisan issue. If you have not seen the movie I highly recommend it as it has gotten positive reviews from both sides of the isle. Try to be objective and think of your loved ones. The system is deeply flawed and people are dying for profits. There is no moral or ethical reason to make medicine a for profit arena.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:13 pmO.T.
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/07/21/tammy.faye/index.html?eref=rss_topstories#cnnSTCText
Tammy Faye Messner dies
* Story Highlights
* Televangelist famed for heavy makeup, frequent tears dead at 65
* She made a final appearance Thursday on "Larry King Live"
* Former singer survived PTL scandal, drug addiction
* Ex-husband, televangelist Jim Bakker, spent time in prison
THANK GODDDD!!!!!
July 21st, 2007 at 11:13 pm
Hetero ~ the russian rifle troll is Mr P.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:13 pmHe's been around a while, disrupting and asking dumbass questions like this to distract.
If we don't feed it, it will hopefully die of boredom from inventing other personae to have a conversation with itself.
I was floored by Sicko. Throughout the entire film, I kept thinking about personal experiences I have had that were so similar. It really hit home. For those who haven't seen it yet, please do yourself a favor and check it out. Personally, I have had surgery in America (several times) and in France, once, after a bike accident. The French health care was wonderful, I couldn't have asked for more.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:13 pmYou may new here. Both are political blogs and therefore often scrutinized and critiqued. Not rocket science. Now that I answered your harmless question I await your answer.
Comment by Heterodoxy — July 21, 2007 @ 11:09 pm
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Indeed, not rocket science at all. TP is having a very slow day!
As for your questions... try to rephrase them so that someone who does not subscribe to your deluded ideology can understand.
Here is your first question:
How do you defend more resources and money going for less results?
Now, this is a very broad and vague question, worded as such. Do you mean "less results" as in "less time in the waiting room to see the doctor"?
If so, this is very easily defended. But I do not think that is what you meant.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:15 pmKalashnikov follow the money and for a brief moment pretend you are an adult asking yourself one question.
Are they looking out for my best interests or their own?
July 21st, 2007 at 11:16 pmI agree with Michael Moore’s statement that healthcare should not be a “for profit†industry.
The problem is that your governance has become a for profit industry. Senators and Congressmen are not in office because they are virtuous. They are there to reap material wealth and make contacts. Look at how they bamboozled the conservative movement. They took their money and made great promises. What did these hard working middle class faithful people get in return?
Nothing.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:16 pmWhy is big pharma/med/insurance scared of Sicko?
July 21st, 2007 at 11:16 pmThey REALLY don't want any of the truth about their industry under public scrutiny any way shape or form.
That's why the counter smear is being launched, and why not the Drudge to carry water for them? They are a reichwing tool to the core.
Uh, you already have to wait in line to see a doctor.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:16 pm"Though he denies it, he uses the same phrases, talking points, and putdowns as “Mr. P†(and all his characters.)"
Actually, the only reason you know who I am is because I said so on an earlier thread!
Nice try, sort of...
July 21st, 2007 at 11:17 pmDo you mean “less results†as in “less time in the waiting room to see the doctor�
If so, this is very easily defended. But I do not think that is what you meant.
Comment by Kalashnikov
BZZZZZZZZtttttttttttt Debunked. Can you have a dialogue withoit insults? Stand by your empowered reasoning and knowledge. That position is factually incorrect. try again if you have the courage.
Just answer the valid questions as I did for you.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:18 pmWhy is TP devoting an entire thread to an ad at the Drudge Report?
why NOT?
it's a good conversation starter...
besides the headline reads:
Industry-Led Smear Campaign Against SiCKO Makes Its Way To Drudge...
the subject of that statement being: Industry-Led Smear Campaign Against SiCKO
now, what have YOU got against decent health care for ALL of
July 21st, 2007 at 11:18 pmWE THE PEOPLE? ...
If I talk about a one-sided arguement it’s not an indication I’m after some more of that one side explained.
Comment by Kilo
You complain about long wait in other countries and I explained why there wasn't long waits here. But you don't want to hear that.
Then you talk about how great corporate healthcare is and then complain that Hillary, along with all the other presidential candidates, takes campaign money from same.
Then you have the gall to call us hypocrites.
And I personally know two people who died from appendicitis, an easily diagnosed and surgically repaired ailment if seen by a doctor on a timely basis. How did these people fare better than the stories of people who waited in other countries.
Don't bother to answer. It will just be more of your party line talking points we've all been sold for decades now.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:20 pmMr Pee.
Get help.
Dissociative Identity Disorder (DID), as defined by the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, is a mental condition whereby a single individual evidences two or more distinct identities or personalities, each with its own pattern of perceiving and interacting with the environment. The presumption is that at least two personalities may routinely take control of the individual's behavior. The diagnostic criteria also calls for some associated memory loss that goes beyond normal forgetfulness, often referred to as losing time or acute Dissociative Amnesia[2]. The symptoms of DID must occur independently of substance abuse or a more general medical condition in order to be diagnosed. Dissociative identity disorder was originally named Multiple Personality Disorder (MPD), and, as referenced above, that name remains in the International Statistical Classification of Diseases and Related Health Problems.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:20 pmJust answer the valid questions as I did for you.
Comment by Heterodoxy — July 21, 2007 @ 11:18 pm
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hey, I'm asking you to be more specific!
Now please, unless you want to dance around in the world of sophistry, what do you mean by: "more resources," "more money" and "less results"?
July 21st, 2007 at 11:21 pmKalshnikov
List the advantages and disadvantages.
We pay the most and have worse results
We have higher child mortality
We have 40+ million without care adding to the bottom line financial hemorraging of our own system
We already have socialized medicine, should we pull it from our veterans and elderly?
What exactly is your point (without others talking points)?
July 21st, 2007 at 11:21 pmit’s a good conversation starter…
...
now, what have YOU got against decent health care for ALL of
WE THE PEOPLE? …
Comment by katy — July 21, 2007 @ 11:18 pm
---------------------------------------------------------
Thank you for the honest answer.
Personally, I have no problem with decent health care for all American citizens. I'm in favor of this.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:23 pmWhy do you salute inneficiency and waste (ther than W)? We pay over 7,000 per person and we have a worse system with 40+ million not covered.
Simple enough for you?
July 21st, 2007 at 11:24 pman important point needs to be made here...
July 21st, 2007 at 11:25 pmfrom everything i've read and heard about the systems in
other countries, there is NO WAIT for any emergency type
surgeries... the only waits are for ELECTIVE procedures...
...
Actually, the only reason you know who I am is because I said so on an earlier thread!
Nice try, sort of…
Comment by Kalashnikov — July 21, 2007 @ 11:17 pm
I also know your real name. And why switch screen names if you're going to admit it? Kind of defeats the purpose of anonymity, doesn't it? Or are you simply trying to get past the site moderators because of your past ugliness on these threads?
----------------
Heterodoxy,
I told you you would be unlikely to get a reply worthy of a response, and he proved me correct.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:27 pmWayne, you are 100% correct Kalashnikov is both too ignorant of the facts to have an adult discussion and too coward to address it.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:28 pm#
an important point needs to be made here…
from everything i’ve read and heard about the systems in
other countries, there is NO WAIT for any emergency type
surgeries… the only waits are for ELECTIVE procedures…
…
Comment by katy — July 21, 2007 @ 11:25 pm
#
I was injured in a bike accident in France in 1993. My wonderful riding skills led me into a telephone pole on a thursday night. I woke up in the hospital the following morning (friday). I had surgery the following tuesday, and spent two weeks as an inpatient recovering. The care was incredible, I couldn't have asked for more.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:29 pmComment by RUCerious — July 21, 2007 @ 11:20 pm
Mr. P can't get help. No health insurance!
And even if you have health insurance, mental health care is the least covered. $25,000 lifetime maximum and one time inpatient coverage for lifetime. He probably used that us by the time he was 12.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:29 pmWhat exactly is your point (without others talking points)?
Comment by Heterodoxy — July 21, 2007 @ 11:21 pm
------------------------------------------------------------------------
My point is that you aren't making sense.
When you make a statement like this:
July 21st, 2007 at 11:30 pmWe pay the most and have worse results
You express a quantitative relation ("the most") and a qualitative relation ("worse"), you need to explain further in order to make sense.
Wayne, you are 100% correct Kalashnikov is both too ignorant of the facts to have an adult discussion and too coward to address it.
Comment by Heterodoxy
"Kalashnikov" is a regular troll here, who posts moronic "comments" under a series of names. Don't bother trying to engage it in a conversation.
Like all trolls, it merely seeks attention and appears to have an infinite amount of time to waste, and no life to speak of.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:32 pm"I also know your real name. And why switch screen names if you’re going to admit it?"
You do? How'd you get that info?
I switched names because TP regulars would just glance at the comments, if they see my other name they might be frightened away!
The TPers need to breed, they are an endangered species!!!
July 21st, 2007 at 11:32 pmI couldn’t have asked for more.
Comment by Chris L
You darn lefties. See how you you don't even get angry and want to start a war with those pesky French telephone poles.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:33 pmKalashnikov, i am confused how your gene pool survived this long or how you can afford a computer. I spelled it our SPECIFICLLY A CHILD COULD FOLLOW in #63.
Follow the letters to make words, words make sentences.
We pay in excess of $7,000 per person (thats the most)....still with me? yet we do not have the results the other countries who pay less.
Hope I didn't strain your itty bitty brain.
Still salute failure?
July 21st, 2007 at 11:33 pmAnd even if you have health insurance, mental health care is the least covered. $25,000 lifetime maximum and one time inpatient coverage for lifetime. He probably used that us by the time he was 12.
Comment by shane
Oregon passed a law that went into effect in January and forces health insurance coverage for mental health to match the benefits offered for physical health. IOW, no limits on visits. Which is huge, given that most people in need of mental health care need it on a regular and constant basis. None of this "Oops, sorry, you don't get any more visits for the next two years. Hope you don't top yourself in the meantime!"
July 21st, 2007 at 11:34 pm"the results" -heterodoxy
You mean, like how we don't have to wait as long for care?
July 21st, 2007 at 11:35 pmKalashnikov, i am confused how your gene pool survived this long or how you can afford a computer. I spelled it our SPECIFICLLY A CHILD COULD FOLLOW in #63.
Comment by Heterodoxy
Actually, the troll lives with mommy, is unemployed (although it claims to be a "student") and mommy is paying for the computer and ISP. In all likelihood, you do not have to worry about it replicating itself. Blow-up love dolls rarely get pregnant.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:36 pmYou mean, like how we don’t have to wait as long for care?
Comment by Kalashnikov — July 21, 2007 @ 11:35 pm
#
That has not been my experience. I waited 9 months for a liver biopsy in Utah. I waited two days for surgery in France.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:38 pmVaccinations?
Gross!
I rather not contract diseases and have foreign proteins injected directly into my bloodstream, not to mention the dozens of toxins that are present in vaccines such as mercury.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:38 pmComment by gummitch — July 21, 2007 @ 11:34 pm
That is part of the problem. Some states do great things like Oregon but most states do not. Virginia obviously doesn't have suitable mental health care. Hence the shooter and Virginia Tech, Mr. P, and
July 21st, 2007 at 11:40 pmCT.
And in response you post a 2nd time about the drawbacks of the US health care system, none of the benefits, and none of the drawbacks of alternative systems.
I didn't call you a hypocrite. I called you pointless. I called you a parrot for the one-sided portrayal that we've already got and don't need more of.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:41 pmNow why don't you complain about that assessment of you a second time while again reconfirming it. Or not.
Comment by Chris L — July 21, 2007 @ 11:38 pm
Thanks for the anecdote!
July 21st, 2007 at 11:41 pmOh, yeah, we NEVER have to wait to see a doctor in the US.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:41 pmUh huh.
Vaccinations?
Gross!
I rather not contract diseases and have foreign proteins injected directly into my bloodstream, not to mention the dozens of toxins that are present in vaccines such as mercury.
Comment by Deniz Yeter
Then we can assume your mommy homeschooled you too since vaccines are required to enter school.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:42 pm“I also know your real name. And why switch screen names if you’re going to admit it?â€
You do? How’d you get that info?
Comment by Kalashnikov — July 21, 2007 @ 11:32 pm
Well, let's just say that: 1) I recognize the pattern in some of your comments as belonging to some others you've made under your various names, and 2) You told me.
Now, if you really are who I think you are, you'll remember when and where you told me this.
Please remember that despite the fact that I hate what you're doing, I am going to reveal your "true identity".
July 21st, 2007 at 11:45 pm...not to mention the dozens of toxins that are present in vaccines such as mercury.
Comment by Deniz Yeter — July 21, 2007 @ 11:38 pm
yea, about that... i've heard that europe does not allow
July 21st, 2007 at 11:46 pmmercury based preservatives (thumerisol) in their vaccines...
you can also request that your health dept. or clinic not use them...
try anyway...
I didn’t call you a hypocrite. I called you pointless. I called you a parrot for the one-sided portrayal that we’ve already got and don’t need more of.
Now why don’t you complain about that assessment of you a second time while again reconfirming it. Or not.
Comment by Kilo
As somebody who pays $250 per week per employee for healthcare you're not likely to get support of the current system from me. If I didn't have to pay so much in employee healthcare I might be able to take a real vacation some time. In addition to paying that for BC/BS I've already payed over $1,500 in out of pocket expenses for just me this year.
Why don't you tell us about all the benefits of US healthcare. You're the big supporter.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:47 pmNow, if you really are who I think you are, you’ll remember when and where you told me this.
Please remember that despite the fact that I hate what you’re doing, I am going to reveal your “true identityâ€.
Comment by Wayne A. Schneider — July 21, 2007 @ 11:45 pm
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you think that my name is Stephen Dedalus, it is not.
I borrowed that name from Mr. Joyce. Just as you borrowed the title of his novel "A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man" for one of your blog entries.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:48 pmComment by Wayne A. Schneider — July 21, 2007 @ 11:45 pm
————————————————————————-
If you think that my name is Stephen Dedalus, it is not.
I borrowed that name from Mr. Joyce. Just as you borrowed the title of his novel “A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man†for one of your blog entries.
Comment by Kalashnikov
And in typical Mr. P fashion, insists another thread be all about him.
July 21st, 2007 at 11:51 pmI called you a parrot for the one-sided portrayal that we’ve already got and don’t need more of. -kilo
it goes right over their heads, doesn't it?...
July 21st, 2007 at 11:54 pmoh, the hypocrisy...
Actually I forgot the word "not". My mistake, and I apologize. And I guess I was wrong about your "real name". (I never claimed to be an expert on literature.) Still too afraid to come out and be your true self? I wasn't going to reveal what you told me. But you did at least confirm that you were the person I was thinking you were. Thanks for doing that.
So you are the one who used to call himself "PiP", "Mr. President", and all those various Roman Emperors and constantly post stupid crap like crosses all over the place and "Cheney in 2008!!!!"
Didn't you get the hint when they tried to stop you from posting before? Why do you want everyone to think you are an immature teenager with no friends to hang out with?
July 21st, 2007 at 11:57 pmWhy do you want everyone to think you are an immature teenager with no friends to hang out with?
Comment by Wayne A. Schneider — July 21, 2007 @ 11:57 pm
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh that, it's all part of a neocon conspiracy!!!!!!!!
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:02 amHEyOOOOoooOOOOOoooOOOooooOOOOooOOooooOOoooOOOOooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
CHENEY 2008!!! †
Actually I forgot the word “notâ€.
I figured. I know you're a good person, Wayne.
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:03 amComment by Mr. President — July 22, 2007 @ 12:02 am
I thought so. You know, blow-up dolls don't count as "friends".
But getting back to the point of this thread (sorry for the derailment, folks), tell me something. Do you believe that healthcare should be a "for profit" industry? Even if that meant that you or a lov...I mean, someone you care about, can't afford necessary surgery or medication?
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:05 amDo you believe that healthcare should be a “for profit†industry?
Yes.
Even if that meant that you or a lov…I mean, someone you care about, can’t afford necessary surgery or medication?
No. But I don't quite follow this statement "someone you care about".
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:07 amYou mean, like how we don’t have to wait as long for care?
Comment by Kalashnikov
Speak for yourself. I blew out a knee, and had to wait four months before State disability approved my claim for workman's comp. That's four months hobbling around on a damaged knee at work on a limited work schedule, on painkillers. After I was approved for surgery, I was back to work, walking normally within a week. In California, the state disqualifies everyone on their initial claim - it isn't until a review process is completed that injured workers can get the assistance they need. If others must wait as long as I did, it must be a huge waste of resources. People who could return to work within a relatively short period and not be a drain on the system are forced to wait, running up the eventual price tag for the State, as those who must wait are then paid retroactively for time spent waiting for care.
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:07 amtest
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:07 amI figured. I know you’re a good person, Wayne.
Comment by Mr. President — July 22, 2007 @ 12:03 am
And despite everything you've posted and everything that everyone else has said about you and to you, I still see potential in you. (You appear to have read books from classic literature which I haven't.)
I still think that you should begin again with an entirely unrelated name and start working for the forces of goodness and light (which would be us.)
You are wasting your great talent for sarcasm on the wrong crowd. It's so much more fun to do it to acerebralists.
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:08 amNo. But I don’t quite follow this statement “someone you care aboutâ€.
Comment by Mr. President — July 22, 2007 @ 12:07 a
I was going to say "loved one", but I couldn't be positive there was such a person. It sounds like you're saying you favor a "for profit" healthcare systemn, but not if it means someone you care about can't get needed surgery or medication.
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:10 amHello TP:
Let's start our one hour chat right now. It's great to be here. Who would like to ask the first question?
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:13 amCrap we must have this now, because every time I go to the doctor at my scheduled time I wait, and wait and wait and wait. Took my girlfriend a month ago for Lasik and waited an hour and a half. And insurance doesn’t cover that, even though it’s cheaper than glasses/contacts.
Where the hell are you getting lasik? A butcher with a cleaver?
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:14 amSen. Thompson,
Is it true that when you stared into Mexico from the southern border that illegal immigration stopped for a month?
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:15 amWe already have socialized medicine, should we pull it from our veterans and elderly?
Yep, programs which in themselves are driving this nation to bankruptcy.
Let's pile on another 40 million to the bill!
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:16 am"Who would like to ask the first question?"
Comment by Fred Thompson
Do you really think your "outsider" strategy will work, given the substantial amount of time you've spent as a DC lobbyist? And as a follow up: Do you really believe conservatives don't know this?
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:17 amHello Billy,
Thanks for your question. Yes it is true. Back in late 2006 I went to the southern border and looked into Mexico. There wasn't one single illegal alien that crossed over the border over the next month.
Also, I once ended a fillibuster by tearing out a senator's heart and showing it to him before he died.
Next question please.
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:17 amDidn’t you get the hint when they tried to stop you from posting before? Why do you want everyone to think you are an immature teenager with no friends to hang out with?
Comment by Wayne A. Schneider
Because he is?
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:17 amComment by barfly — July 22, 2007 @ 12:07 am
Comment by Wayne A. Schneider — July 22, 2007 @ 12:10 am
I still think that there should be some incentives for healthcare providers.
I generally agree with Moore on this one, but I don't trust the gov't to run an honest system.
Right now, I actually don't even have insurance, so I don't really "have a dog in this fight," to quote Michael Vick.
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:17 amOregon passed a law that went into effect in January and forces health insurance coverage for mental health to match the benefits offered for physical health. IOW, no limits on visits. Which is huge, given that most people in need of mental health care need it on a regular and constant basis
That whoosh you are hearing is all the jobs that are on the way out of Oregon!
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:18 amAs somebody who pays $250 per week per employee for healthcare you’re not likely to get support of the current system from me. If I didn’t have to pay so much in employee healthcare I might be able to take a real vacation some time. In addition to paying that for BC/BS I’ve already payed over $1,500 in out of pocket expenses for just me this year.
You'd be paying much more than that in taxes for all the illegals and the unproductive welfare queens!
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:19 amLet’s pile on another 40 million to the bill!
Comment by m12
$12 billion a month being spent in Iraq.
Get real.
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:19 amHelly barfly,
Yes I am an outsider. As you probably know, I retired from the senate in 2002 and I have been a very popular actor on the hit televsion series "Law and Order" for all of this time. I was DA Aurther Branch.
Next question please.
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:19 am$12 billion a month being spent in Iraq.
Get real.
Comment by barfly — July 22, 2007 @ 12:19 am
Helluva lot cheaper than health care.
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:21 am"You’d be paying much more than that in taxes for all the illegals and the unproductive welfare queens!"
Comment by m12
Read my last post.
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:21 am*disclosure
I am not really Fred Thompson. This is for entertainment purposes only.
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:22 amThat whoosh you are hearing is all the jobs that are on the way out of Oregon!
Comment by m12 — July 22, 2007 @ 12:18 am
#
Both Google and Oracle have just recently discussed building their largest datacenters in Oregon, mainly due to the cheap power.
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:22 amRight now, I actually don’t even have insurance, so I don’t really “have a dog in this fight,†to quote Michael Vick.
Comment by Kalashnikov — July 22, 2007 @ 12:17 am
Now that was actually funny. I know that you are liberal at heart and just do this to be annoying. Conservatives really don't have a sense of humor. A real conservative poster would have made some moronic fat joke about Michael Moore, but you actually made a clever reference to a current topic. Like I said, I see hope for you even if others have written you off.
As for the government running an "honest system", we could have that if we had oversight (even "civilian") and their finances were closely monitored. At the very least, cutting out the unnecessary (and sometimes deadly) middleman would bring costs way, way down. Which I know you know.
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:23 amFred Thompson,
Did you get to bang any of the broads playing the part of Assistant D.A. on Law and Order?
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:24 amAs for the government running an “honest systemâ€, we could have that if we had oversight (even “civilianâ€) and their finances were closely monitored.
Monitored by who?
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:25 amI am not really Fred Thompson. This is for entertainment purposes only.
Comment by Fred Thompson — July 22, 2007 @ 12:22 am
Well, duh!
While we're at it, why did you rent a pickup truck and pretend to drive around the state of Tennessee in it when in fact you were often driven to campaign stops in a limo and drove the truck the last short distance? Wasn't that a rather dishonest way of trying to convince the voters that you were "just like them"?
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:25 amMonitored by who?
Comment by m12 — July 22, 2007 @ 12:25 am
How about you and me?
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:26 amHello Kalashnikov,
I really wanted to bang Elizabeth Rohm, but I married a hottie during this time (and she's going to be the next first lady).
Thanks for your question.
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:26 amNext question please.
Comment by Fred Thompson
You haven't answered mine yet. You cannot be considered an outsider - and your republican opponents for president will paint you as a high-living know-nothing, repeating Nixon's words about your mental quality. Why do you think republicans don't care about your inside-the-beltway lifestyle? They are trying to distance themselves from the current batch in Washington, while you seem to offer only more of the same.
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:27 amI really wanted to bang Elizabeth Rohm, but I married a hottie during this time (and she’s going to be the next first lady).
Thanks for your question.
Comment by Fred Thompson — July 22, 2007 @ 12:26 am
I'd rather have Dennis Kucinich's wife as the next first lady.
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:28 amHow about you and me?
Comment by Wayne A. Schneider — July 22, 2007 @ 12:26 am
I'd love to, but when $2 trillion is flowing through government coffers into the hands of pet dogs, phanthom businesses, and other fraudulent fiends, it'll take more than you and me to monitor it....
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:28 amComment by Wayne A. Schneider — July 22, 2007 @ 12:23 am
I agree, and I think that there is much that could be done to improve the system, if the right people are working on those improvements. Above all, it should be about helping the people, but as soon as an office is created, it seems that one of the goals of that bureau is to find ways to make money. Just like the insurance companies do today.
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:29 amI am not really Fred Thompson. This is for entertainment purposes only.
Comment by Fred Thompson
I'm just having fun pointing out "your" chances aren't very good ;)
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:30 amI’d love to, but when $2 trillion is flowing through government coffers into the hands of pet dogs, phanthom businesses, and other fraudulent fiends, it’ll take more than you and me to monitor it….
Comment by m12 — July 22, 2007 @ 12:28 am
With the insurance companies taken out of the equation, I doubt it would be that high. And I'm good with numbers. I'm sure my wife would be glad to help, as would several of the regulars here if it meant keeping an eye on government. Pleanty of libertarians who post here who would love nothing better than the chance to make sure the govenment doesn't rip us off. Why else wouldn't you do it? (It would be a reasonably paid job, of course. Neither of us could afford to do it for free.)
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:31 amI know, I just can't get through to him.
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:32 am"I’d rather have Dennis Kucinich’s wife as the next first lady."
I'd like to "have" her.
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:33 amThere's a concept for you.
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:34 amWhat else ? Up for some meat inspections while you're at it ?
Fred Thompson banged her?
http://l.yimg.com/img.tv.yahoo.com/tv/us/img/site/24/60/0000032460_20060926101433.jpg
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:34 amAbove all, it should be about helping the people, but as soon as an office is created, it seems that one of the goals of that bureau is to find ways to make money. Just like the insurance companies do today.
Comment by Kalashnikov — July 22, 2007 @ 12:29 am
It may "seem" that way, but of course the goal of government is not to "make money". It's to provide necessary services to its citizens that they may not be able to do or afford themselves. Hence you've got your police departments and (in many areas) fire departments, highway departments, food inspectors (if Bush hasn't fired them all yet), safety inspectors and so on. And remember, businesses are required by law to maximize profits. Governments are not supposed to be run like businesses because the goals are completely different. If the goal of our government was to "make money", don't you think the president would have been "fired" long ago?
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:36 am"I’d love to, but when $2 trillion is flowing through government coffers into the hands of pet dogs, phanthom businesses, and other fraudulent fiends, it’ll take more than you and me to monitor it…."
Is this the same person who typed: "Let’s pile on another 40 million to the bill!"?
So, fiscal responsibilty in healthcare, good; fiscal responsibility in military spending, don't worry about it.
Loopy.
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:37 amWith the insurance companies taken out of the equation, I doubt it would be that high. And I’m good with numbers. I’m sure my wife would be glad to help, as would several of the regulars here if it meant keeping an eye on government. Pleanty of libertarians who post here who would love nothing better than the chance to make sure the govenment doesn’t rip us off. Why else wouldn’t you do it?
Tell you what. If you want to help and you're so good with numbers, maybe you should head over to the IRS and try to close the $300 billion tax gap?
http://www.irs.gov/newsroom/article/0,,id=137247,00.html
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:40 amIs this the same person who typed: “Let’s pile on another 40 million to the bill!�
So, fiscal responsibilty in healthcare, good; fiscal responsibility in military spending, don’t worry about it.
Loopy.
Err, that was 40 million people, not 40 million dollars....piling on $200-300b+ to cover all those chumps is the height of fiscal stupidity!
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:41 amMy apologies. I thought "I’d love to, but when $2 trillion is flowing through government coffers into the hands of pet dogs, phanthom businesses, and other fraudulent fiends, it’ll take more than you and me to monitor it†referred to the Black Hole of fiscal responsibility in Mesopotamia.
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:41 amHow about you and me?
Comment by Wayne A. Schneider — July 22, 2007 @ 12:26 am
Pshaw! Like We the People should be overseeing the government. What, are you high? It's not like there exist citizen watchdog groups. It is not like there exists, already, citizen oversight groups that keep an eye on things. It's not like the "special people" we give POWER should be answerable to us, Wayne! It's not like they work for us! Sheesh!
"Ignore the man behind the curtain. He isn't taking a cut! He isn't breaking all the rules he wants us to follow! He isn't doing anything at all, just ignore him!!!
Don't tell the people that the healthcare costs they pay in insurance will be 100% wiped away, unless they choose to pay a premium, private, for-profit health insurance company for "extra coverage". You know, for botox injections, and tummy-tuck #96, and those D-cups you always wanted. Don't tell them that everyone in the country will have better health insurance for less cost! Don't tell them that the 45 million people without health insurance will suddenly be covered!
Don't tell the people that they would pay less per year and get better service. Just tell them that they will wait in line longer...
...
...
...if it's elective surgery.
Aww, crap, I said it out loud again! now I guess those damned greedy bastards will want HEALTH CARE rather than making me and my friends rich. Scumbag peons. Don't they know we are special, because we're rich!?!"
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:44 amOregon passed a law that went into effect in January and forces health insurance coverage for mental health to match the benefits offered for physical health. IOW, no limits on visits. Which is huge, given that most people in need of mental health care need it on a regular and constant basis
That whoosh you are hearing is all the jobs that are on the way out of Oregon!
Comment by m12
Don't you just hate it when you're wrong? I mean, seriously, maybe you should learn to check the data before you spout obvious b.s. like this.
http://tinyurl.com/ypb6c3
Labor force in Oregon: up. Employment in Oregon: up. Unemployment in Oregon: down.
This is a really good opportunity for m12 to admit to being WRONG.
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:48 amAww, crap, I said it out loud again! now I guess those damned greedy bastards will want HEALTH CARE rather than making me and my friends rich. Scumbag peons. Don’t they know we are special, because we’re rich!?!â€
They are special. They are the source of investment, hard work, ideas, and growth for our nation.
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:50 am"Labor force in Oregon: up. Employment in Oregon: up. Unemployment in Oregon: down."
Didn't they also raise the minimum wage, with no ill effects to the state's businesses?
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:52 amTell you what. If you want to help and you’re so good with numbers, maybe you should head over to the IRS and try to close the $300 billion tax gap?
Apples and oranges. That's a different job altogether and not what I was talking about. Got any other "rational" reasons why this can't be done?
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:52 amApples and oranges. That’s a different job altogether and not what I was talking about. Got any other “rational†reasons why this can’t be done?
It's not apples and oranges at all. If you want to pay for universal health care, the government has to collect that money somehow!
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:53 amIf the goal of our government was to “make moneyâ€, don’t you think the president would have been “fired†long ago?
Comment by Wayne A. Schneider — July 22, 2007 @ 12:36 am
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, it was my understanding that money was being filtered to a select few companies which are doing quite well, and that the long term investments have not fully matured as of yet.
As to keeping an eye on the gov't, the other day TP had a thread that focused on the negligence of a civilian oversight board:
http://thinkprogress.org/2007/07/15/bush-intelligence-oversight-board-silent-for-5-12-yrs/
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:53 am“In America you wait in line to see a movie. In government-run healthcare systems, you wait to see a doctorâ€:
hcadrudge.jpg
why is it I see no one on medicare, which is government run, waiting in line for health care? Most I know on medicare would not trade it.
I would imagine the insurance co are going to lobby hard on this.... too late as the people are waking up to the fact the insurance industry is one big money hole - 30% of the cost is lost to this middle man. We do not need to spend 50% of our tax dollar money to the pentagon...other countries do not... cut this in half and give 25% to a government health care system. It is time to look towards other countries, other countries that are very happy with their system, as a model.
Bye bye insurance industry.
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:54 amComment by gummitch — July 22, 2007 @ 12:48 am
Oregon's labor laws went into effect only this year. Your numbers predate that.
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:54 amThey are special. They are the source of investment, hard work, ideas, and growth for our nation.
Comment by m12 — July 22, 2007 @ 12:50 am
Because they are motivated by the wrong reasons. They are not motivated by their desire to save lives and cure disease. Why do you hate human beings so much?
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:54 amTell you what. If you want to help and you’re so good with numbers, maybe you should head over to the IRS and try to close the $300 billion tax gap?
http://www.irs.gov/ newsroom/ article/ 0,,id=137247,00.html
Comment by m12 — July 22, 2007 @ 12:40 am
*Underreporting noncompliance is the largest component of the tax gap. Preliminary estimates show underreporting accounts for more then 80 percent of the total tax gap, with non-filing and underpayment at about 10 percent each.
*Individual income tax is the single largest source of the annual tax gap, accounting for about two-thirds of the total.
*For individual underreporting, more than 80 percent comes from understated income, not overstated deductions.
*Most of the understated income comes from business activities, not wages or investment income.
*Compliance rates are highest where there is third-party reporting or withholding. Preliminary findings show less than 1.5 percent of wages and salaries are misreported.
Do you even read what you LINK TO?
Considering that the poor usually get all of their taxes back, and the middle class tend to work for someone else, who acts as a third party reporting or withholding wages and salaries, that leaves whom, do you think, that makes up the largest tax gap? Hmmm...who would underreport money made on business activities? Someone barely scraping by who gets all their taxes back every year anyhow so wouldn't pay that tax? Someone who makes a solid income, but has their $50,000-100,000 a year job's taxes withheld by their boss? Someone who has large number of extra-job business activities? On top of that, who'd be most able to underreport their financial activities? Someone with a few financial activities each year, or someone with alot of private business activities on the side each year?
Hmmm.
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:54 amBecause they are motivated by the wrong reasons. They are not motivated by their desire to save lives and cure disease. Why do you hate human beings so much?
Yeah, so? Are you a doctor? Do you give away your services to save lives and cure diseases?
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:55 am"They are special. They are the source of rigged investment, overcompensated hard work, stolen ideas, and growth for our nation's corporate elite."
Comment by m12
Fixed it for you.
No thanks necessary.
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:55 amwhy is it I see no one on medicare, which is government run, waiting in line for health care? Most I know on medicare would not trade it.
Why? Because the medicare entitlement is leeching off 100 million working taxpayers!
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:56 amComment by Moderation — July 22, 2007 @ 12:54 am
When did I suggest all of the assertions you pulled out of your behind?
Obviously, since the rich are the only ones truly burdened with federal taxes in our economy, they are the only ones who will be dodging them.....
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:58 am"Yeah, so? Are you a doctor? Do you give away your services to save lives and cure diseases?"
Comment by m12
I guess he's never heard of pro bono lawyers. Is it such a stretch to think doctors might also commit humanitarian acts, without compensation?
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:59 amComment by Kalashnikov — July 22, 2007 @ 12:53 am
From the article in the thread you posted to:
"The board was vacant for the first two years of the Bush administration."
Perhaps that's a large part of the reason they didn't get much oversight done. I'm sure plenty of civilian review boards from the past have done their jobs amirably. I think you could understand why Bush would not want an active oversight of his intelligence activites, especially since he wanted to manipulate it into making the people and the Congress believe things that were not true.
What if you joined me, my wife, and m12 on the board? Would you have faith then that it was being done correctly?
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:00 amOregon’s labor laws went into effect only this year. Your numbers predate that.
Comment by m12
First of all, they are not "labor" laws. Second of all, the laws have been on the books since 2005. Any employers that intended to leave had plenty of notice.
So-called "conservatives" always make the same stupid claims and never relinquish them, in spite of evidence to disprove them. "Ooooh, if you raise the minimum wage many jobs will be lost!" and yet, just the opposite has been proven to occur.
Good benefits encourage workers to keep their jobs, and good health care means a healthy and productive workforce.
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:00 am"Why? Because the medicare entitlement is leeching off 100 million working taxpayers!"
Comment by m12
And no one currently on medicare ever made a payroll contribution to the system.
Loopy.
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:01 amyou wouldn't guess that mr.pee is a philosophy major,
working on that masters... or so we were told before...
and, as a student, is still covered by the parent's policy...
fortunate son...
by the way, the government is YOU... you'd best learn to
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:02 amtrust yourself, and get serious about helping to fix this mess...
it's OK to have good government... but it takes YOU...
working together with all of US... WE THE PEOPLE...
remember?
I guess he’s never heard of pro bono lawyers. Is it such a stretch to think doctors might also commit humanitarian acts, without compensation?
They might on occasion, but not for 40 million people! Someone has to pay for med school loans, lost time, and huge malpractice costs for large torts.
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:02 amWould you have faith then that it was being done correctly?
Comment by Wayne A. Schneider — July 22, 2007 @ 1:00 am
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:04 am---------------------
Well, that all depends on what we see being done, and if we did find abuses, if we actually had the power to fix the problem (which would depend on the nature of the problem, and might involve increasing taxes or denying people the quick/quality care that they should receive).
Yeah, so? Are you a doctor? Do you give away your services to save lives and cure diseases?
Comment by m12 — July 22, 2007 @ 12:55 am
No, I'm not a doctor, but neither are you. If that makes us unqualified to discuss options then we should both leave this thread.
And, if you were paying close attention to what I said earlier, I said that healthcare should not be a "for profit" industry. That doesn't mean the doctor must "give away [his] services" for free. he can if he wants to, but he can still earn a living wage.
If you saw someone in need of help, would you refuse to do so just because there was no profit in it?
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:04 amAnd no one currently on medicare ever made a payroll contribution to the system.
Loopy.
With medicare outlays growing at far higher rates than inflation? No, they didn't contribute a whole lot.
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:04 amLooks like "Sen Fred" has done head for the shed.
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:05 amWe the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Why is it We the People are forking out 50% of our tax dollars to the pentagon so bush can have his illegal wars and cheney his merc military?
It is time to put our funds towards We the People, start taking care of the People instead of They the Thugs.
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:05 amSingle payer health care for all.
you wouldn’t guess that mr.pee is a philosophy major,
working on that masters… or so we were told before…
and, as a student, is still covered by the parent’s policy…
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:05 amfortunate son…
------------------------------------
Not so. I do not have insurance at the moment, and I have not for over 3 years.
"With medicare outlays growing at far higher rates than inflation? No, they didn’t contribute a whole lot."
Is this going to be like your workers' monetary compensation assertion?
We both know how that turned out...
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:07 amComment by Kalashnikov — July 22, 2007 @ 1:04 am
It sounds like you're looking for excuses to not even try. Of course such an agency (for lack of a better term, but should not be lumped in with all other agencies) would have authority to fix problems which, constitutionally (remember that wonderful thing?), could not involve giving us the power to raise taxes (only the Congress could do that.)
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:07 amWhen did I suggest all of the assertions you pulled out of your behind?
Obviously, since the rich are the only ones truly burdened with federal taxes in our economy, they are the only ones who will be dodging them…..
Comment by m12 — July 22, 2007 @ 12:58 am
Right, because people making below a living wage, who'd still barely be able to make ends meet if they didn't HAVE 30%+ of their wages withheld each paycheck, are totally unburdened. And the middle class, who have to be more honest about it, because they don't have tax shelters and investments and other means of shielding portions of their income from taxes, but still pay their taxes honestly every year, by and large, and thus aren't the likely culprits underreporting.
On the other hand, the wealthy get to put huge portions of their income into tax shelters, or into private companies, where they can eliminate even MORE taxes until they are ready to reacquire their $$$. They are also vastly more likely to have multitudes of business dealings on the side, and are ALSO thus more likely to fudge numbers to save some $$$.
Oh yeah, and that whole, "They would not be where they are if society did not give them the opportunity, so yes, as a matter of fact, they DO OWE SOCIETY BACK." thing. You know, like the "Robber Barons" of old knew. You know, those fellows that gave their children just enough money to start a business of their own, and used the rest of their enormous wealth to build up all these great museums, universities, government buildings, parks, and other works of actual philanthropy they left behind? Those guys, who knew they wouldn't be SHIT if We the People hadn't given them the opportunities they were given that allowed them to succeed. The opportunity denied to so many in modern times, who cannot make ends meet with TWO PARENTS working FULL-TIME.
You want to fix the tax gap? Make the rich pay their taxes, make the middle class pay their taxes, make the poor pay their taxes BUT MAKE A LIVING WAGE (after taxes), and make the CORPORATIONS PAY THEIR DAMNABLE TAXES. No...more...tax...shelters. No more breaks if they are caught, no more lack of transparency, no more secret meetings between private industries and our elected officials. No more.
Like there were no implications from you with your statement about fixing the $300 billion tax gap. Pu-lease.
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:10 amAnd, if you were paying close attention to what I said earlier, I said that healthcare should not be a “for profit†industry. That doesn’t mean the doctor must “give away [his] services†for free. he can if he wants to, but he can still earn a living wage.
Living wage, eh? Well, countries like France compensate their doctors at much lower rates than the United States. That's certainly one way to save money, if you want to go that route.
If you saw someone in need of help, would you refuse to do so just because there was no profit in it?
Depends on the situation. You have to be careful in the Lawsuit States of America.
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:10 am“With medicare outlays growing at far higher rates than inflation? No, they didn’t contribute a whole lot.â€
Let's try to remember that cutting out the middleman (insurance companies, who can do just fine on the other things they insure, if they're doing it correctly) would bring those "medicare outlays" way, way down. You can't apply the costs of the current system to an entirely different model and say it would be too expensive, when one of the direct benefits of a single-payer system is lower costs.
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:12 amYou want to fix the tax gap? Make the rich pay their taxes
How?
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:12 amComment by Wayne A. Schneider — July 22, 2007 @ 1:07 am
All I'm saying is, sure I would have more faith if I could personally oversee the gov't activities. But, it might require more funds to fix problems that naturally arise. Such an agency would need to have the power to direct the funds to where they are needed. If not, the quality of care would naturally go down, as more corners are cut to make ends meet.
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:14 ampardon my mistake, p...
...
i'm off to sleep...
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:14 amg'nite all...
Comment by m12 — July 22, 2007 @ 1:10 am
Living wage, eh? Well, countries like France compensate their doctors at much lower rates than the United States. That’s certainly one way to save money, if you want to go that route.
Are the doctors in France starving? I think probably not. And why single out France? Does your same argument apply to every country with a single-payer system?
Depends on the situation. You have to be careful in the Lawsuit States of America.
I'll take that as a "No." That means that you really don't care about your fellow human beings, do you? (There are Good Samaritan laws in many parts of the country, if not all. I know they exist but I admit I do not know their scope.)
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:16 amComment by katy — July 22, 2007 @ 1:14 am
Not a problem, at least you put CCR in my head.
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:17 amLet’s try to remember that cutting out the middleman (insurance companies, who can do just fine on the other things they insure, if they’re doing it correctly) would bring those “medicare outlays†way, way down.
Medicare and caid don't have middlemen for the most part. They are government funded models which are Ted Kennedys and Kucinich's model for universal health care.
Even those are growing out of control, and the Congress whines whenever President Bush tries to save some taxpayer dollars!
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:18 am18,000 of the working class die each year because of lack of health care. This does not include the elderly and disabled as they qualify for medicare. Clearly, some of this could have provided health care for these now gone.
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:19 amNot a problem, at least you put CCR in my head.
Comment by Kalashnikov
That pretty much blows the whole "I'm 24" fantasy right there. CCR?
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:19 amhey gummitch - CCR is timeless and classic...
everything old is new again...
g'nite now...
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:22 amComment by Kalashnikov — July 22, 2007 @ 1:14 am
Of course, you would "personally oversee the government activities." That's what you and me and Jane and m12 would be doing (along with others, not just us four). Obviously they're not going to start us out with a budget of $1. At first they'll overestimate the costs under the new system and then gradually budget according to needs.
I know it's a strange concept in a society driven way too much by capitalism, but if you just try to remember that we're trying to save as many lives as possible and cure as much disease as possible, I'm sure you could see the benefits.
And besides, if we manage to find a cure for something, we could charge the rest of the world an arm and a leg for it and recoup our expenses. (:D) Does that make it more palatable? (Please note that I am not wild about that idea, but this is what the give and take of political negotiation is all about.)
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:22 amhey gummitch - CCR is timeless and classic…
everything old is new again…
g’nite now…
Comment by katy
Pah. No one refers to them as CCR except people who grew up with them.
I don't buy it.
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:23 am"Let’s try to remember that cutting out the middleman (insurance companies, who can do just fine on the other things they insure, if they’re doing it correctly) would bring those 'medicare outlays' way, way down. "
An acquaintance of mine runs a medical billing business - and last year she made over $400,000. She employs four, who also make upwards of $150,000 a year, each. When I asked her how she could charge so much for her services, she said it was standard, and paid for by the insurance companies. She also said the profits of overbilling were quite substantial, and when discovered by patients, repaid; just a part of doing business...
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:24 amHow?
Comment by m12 — July 22, 2007 @ 1:12 am
Pull the money straight out of their account without their permission once an audit has determined the amount they ow? Or garnish their wages, like they do to the lower and middle class people caught not paying taxes? Or put them in jail until they obey? It's not like there aren't any options. If the IRS had no means of ENFORCING taxes, why, noone would ever pay their taxes.
Nice non-argument.
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:25 amAre the doctors in France starving? I think probably not. And why single out France? Does your same argument apply to every country with a single-payer system?
They aren't starving, no, but they don't make the money that 12 years of study deserves!
I don't know if it applies to every nation, but it does to ours. Medicaid reimbursement is so frugal doctors are cutting those patients off!
http://www.ama-assn.org/amednews/2004/07/26/gvl20726.htm
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:28 amEven those are growing out of control, and the Congress whines whenever President Bush tries to save some taxpayer dollars!
Comment by m12 — July 22, 2007 @ 1:18 am
I have said this before and I'll say it again. One of the major problems is not that healthcare costs so much, it's that they charge so much. That's why those budgets are "growing out of control", because the people charging the government are trying to make as much money as possible because they are driven by capitalism and not altruism. You've got to think about this in the new paradigm, not the old one. Sure, there are probably some BMW and Mercedes car dealers who will lose business because there will be fewer people with vaults full of money that they have to show off. Too bad for them, they can sell hybrid cars instead.
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:28 amwell, maybe his mom played "name that tune"
with the kids while in the car...
mine know who CCR is...
ok... good night!
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:30 amPull the money straight out of their account without their permission once an audit has determined the amount they ow? Or garnish their wages, like they do to the lower and middle class people caught not paying taxes? Or put them in jail until they obey? It’s not like there aren’t any options. If the IRS had no means of ENFORCING taxes, why, noone would ever pay their taxes.
What money? The money you didn't know existed? The money in accounts overseas?
Good luck auditing 10 million wealthy taxpayers!
Democrats in Congress haven't figured this problem out for 50 years. Maybe you should write to them, since you think you have all the answers!
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:30 amComment by Wayne A. Schneider — July 22, 2007 @ 1:22 am
I agree with concept of gov't oversight "agencies" and think that they are necessary, especially in this day and age. However, I also think that one of the incentives for doctors is money. So if something is going to change, the top docs would have to be the most caring docs, not the docs who are paid the most. I think that to change the way people see the world involves more than a restructuring of the system.
But what do I know? I ain't no Senator's son.
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:31 amPah. No one refers to them as CCR except people who grew up with them.
I don’t buy it.
Comment by gummitch — July 22, 2007 @ 1:23 am
In all fairness, I hear DJs on the radio refer to them as "CCR". One could conceivably pick up on it that way. Same as for referring to "CSNY" (or, just "CSN" in their earlier days, before "Y" joined them.)
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:31 am"Medicare and caid don’t have middlemen for the most part. They are government funded models which are Ted Kennedys and Kucinich’s model for universal health care.
Even those are growing out of control, and the Congress whines whenever President Bush tries to save some taxpayer dollars!"
Bush is not interested in saving taxpayer dollars, and you know it. He's also not interested in saving lives, as he is proving this very moment. the money spent on enriching his buddies through losing two wars simultaneously could guarantee decent, efficient health care to the entire population of the USA, with plenty left over. You haul these statements out of your butt as if they were true, when all you have is lies and Rovian talking points. You are ignorant and intellectually lazy, and your posts are proof of how morally bankrupt you and your kind are. How you can live in this country and hate all of its people so much is an amazing phenomenon. You must be very lonely.
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:32 amAnd besides, if we manage to find a cure for something, we could charge the rest of the world an arm and a leg for it and recoup our expenses.
Really? What guarantee is there that they won't steal the cure?
We are far better off producing more carriers and planes and selling the old ones to other nations, just like this!
http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1049265
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:32 amI don’t buy it.
Comment by gummitch — July 22, 2007 @ 1:23 am
-----------------------------------------
It's a neoConspiracy!!!
I've been outed!!!
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:34 amOr put them in jail until they obey?
We tried that with Marc Rich. It didn't work.
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:35 amWhat money? The money you didn’t know existed? The money in accounts overseas?
Good luck auditing 10 million wealthy taxpayers!
Democrats in Congress haven’t figured this problem out for 50 years. Maybe you should write to them, since you think you have all the answers!
Comment by m12 — July 22, 2007 @ 1:30 am
So, pass the burden onto the middle class, and the lower class. Oh, no, don't attempt to ENFORCE the laws on those who most egregiously break it. That would be LOGICAL. Instead, let them keep getting away with it. Hell, do what this administration has done and REWARD THEM FOR IT. Give them MORE tax breaks, and hell, tax breaks for their tax shelters to! Tax shelters for everyone that doesn't need it! That'll show 'em! That'll make 'em totally change their tune, and pay their taxes!
Why enforce the laws?
Why tighten up the tax code to make it more difficult for this to occur?
Just ignore it.
It'll go away.
...
...
...
Eventually.
...
...
...
Right?
Oh.
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:37 am"Good luck auditing 10 million wealthy taxpayers!"
And yet he thinks we will be victorious in Iraq? This is the same government we're talking about, run by the same people. If they can't devise a way to track money, why does he think they can track terrorists? The pentagon's TIA program could be invaluable in this regard.
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:37 amIt may be a good thing that industry is attacking a film, so vehemently. It will help the people see who is behind the pushback when the debate begins in congress....
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:38 amComment by m12 — July 22, 2007 @ 1:28 am
All that proves is that the AMA and its members are extraordinarily greedy, and think they deserve to be ultra-rich, in spite of the Hippocratic Oath. And your foolish non-answer about the difficulties of taxing the rich is another ripe piece of stupidity, blaming Congress, made of largely of rich white men, for not going after rich white men. You really shoot just shoot yourself, since things are so bad and can't be fixed, in spite of putting a man on the moon, eliminating several horrible diseases, defeating the Axis nations in WW2, and all of the other "impossible" things the USA has accomplished. You are a lazy, unpatriotic hack, with little regard for human life. North Korea would welcome you with open arms.
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:39 amMy point is that the TIA program could track these funds...
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:39 amComment by m12 — July 22, 2007 @ 1:28 am
They aren’t starving, no, but they don’t make the money that 12 years of study deserves!
Again, you're looking at it from a capitalist point of view not an altruistic one. If you're training to be a doctor because of the money, then your priorities are out of whack with those of a humane society.
I don’t know if it applies to every nation, but it does to ours. Medicaid reimbursement is so frugal doctors are cutting those patients off!
And again, we're re-vamping the entire healthcare industry, not just what doctors charge. They're trying to recoup their own expenses inflated by their vendors and suppliers. That will change under the new system. (And I have not singled out anyone's plan, BTW, so let's not get bogged down in whose plan would do what. Not that you were doing that. Call it a "pre-emptive strike". I can't stay up the entire night discussing this.)
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:40 amWhy tighten up the tax code to make it more difficult for this to occur?
Ask John Edwards. He has his own loophole bearing his name at the IRS!
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:40 amAnd yet he thinks we will be victorious in Iraq? This is the same government we’re talking about, run by the same people. If they can’t devise a way to track money, why does he think they can track terrorists? The pentagon’s TIA program could be invaluable in this regard.
Our nation has certainly had far greater success fighting wars than it has establishing your type of tax policy, yeah.
Terrorists can't disappear into electronic bank accounts in Switzerland!
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:43 amWhy tighten up the tax code to make it more difficult for this to occur?
Ask John Edwards. He has his own loophole bearing his name at the IRS!
Comment by m12 — July 22, 2007 @ 1:40 am
Really? Or just another of your endless lies? Cheney certainly has a loophole big enough to drive a shredder truck through, but Edwards? He's worked hard all his life to get to where he is, and is someone who would happily see loopholes eliminated to create a more level and himane playing field. You haven't told a single truth here tonight, but that is your M.O., proving your republicanness. Lies are your stock in trade, and one would need to be as stupid nd venal as you are to embarrass oneself the way you do. You are very lonely.
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:46 amBut what do I know? I ain’t no Senator’s son.
Comment by Kalashnikov — July 22, 2007 @ 1:31 am
Nor am I the fortunate one.
Isn't it much nicer having a civilized discussion? Since you and I have been doing this tonight, there hasn't been a single name hurled at each other. And we've been politely discussing the pros and cons of an arguably controversial idea. I do believe that this is what TP had in mind for this site. Not the nonsense we've often seen in the past. (And I won't name names. Any of them :D)
See? I knew you could contribute positively to the discussion, even if it's to refute and pick apart what I'm saying. Let's do this all the time.
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:46 am"Terrorists can’t disappear into electronic bank accounts in Switzerland!"
Comment by m12
But you can track movements of money - wire transfers, couriers, etc. A stupid strawman.
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:46 amOur nation has certainly had far greater success fighting wars than it has establishing your type of tax policy, yeah.
Terrorists can’t disappear into electronic bank accounts in Switzerland!
Comment by m12 — July 22, 2007 @ 1:43 am
wrong again. We haven't won a "war" since 1945. Ken Lay had to die to escape prison. Terrorists, unless American, like Bush, aren't in it for the money.
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:48 amAgain, you’re looking at it from a capitalist point of view not an altruistic one. If you’re training to be a doctor because of the money, then your priorities are out of whack with those of a humane society.
If you say so. Good luck finding enough people in this country training to be a doctor in your 'humane' society.
Texas will be ok, though. Thanks to malpractice caps set up by Governor George W. Bush and his successor, doctors are fleeing to the state!
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:48 amWe tried that with Marc Rich. It didn’t work.
Comment by m12 — July 22, 2007 @ 1:35 am
I really don't think you want to go there. We all know that Marc Rich had an excellent attorney, and you know who he was. Besides, it has nothing to do with healthcare (other than your tax enforcement rebuttal to another poster.)
And yes, this will involve a major attitude adjustment on the part of people who think they are "God's gift" to medicine. If money is what they're after, go into another line of work that doesn't involve life and death.
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:49 amComment by ronjazz — July 22, 2007 @ 1:46 am
http://www.thinkinglike.com/S-Corporation/John-Edwards-Saved-With-S-Corporation.html
Vice presidential candidate John Edwards saved $600,000 in taxes by forming an S corporation (also known as a subchapter S corporation). How can an S corporation help you?
Edwards made $26.9 million as a trial lawyer in 1995, and he minimized paying Medicare taxes by forming his own S corporation. Edwards paid himself a salary of $360,000 each year for four years and had the S corporation pay him the rest in dividends.
Salary is subject to Medicare taxation at a rate of 2.9%, but dividends escape Medicare taxation. There is no wage base for Medicare, all wages or salaries are subject to the full 2.9% tax. Social Security does have a wage base, which means wages above some limit (currently $87,900) are exempt from the Social Security tax.
So, Edwards saved 2.9% of $25,460,000 or $738,000 in Medicare taxation. However, sole proprietorships are allowed to deduct one half of what they pay in Social Security taxes from their income tax (sole proprietors file Schedule C along with their personal 1040 tax returns). Thus, had Edwards operated as a sole proprietor, he'd get a deduction for $369,000 from his income tax. Figuring income tax at the then-current 39.6% rate, he'd reduce his income tax by about $146,124 if he had filed as a sole proprietor.
Thus, Edwards net savings for forming the S corporation were about $591,000.
Enjoy.
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:50 amTexas will be ok, though. Thanks to malpractice caps set up by Governor George W. Bush and his successor, doctors are fleeing to the state!
Comment by m12
another lie.
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:50 amBut you can track movements of money - wire transfers, couriers, etc.
How many transactions do you think occur daily in the US economy? Tell me, why have the Democrats not solved this problem is its so easy?
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:52 amThanks to malpractice caps set up by Governor George W. Bush and his successor, doctors are fleeing to the state!
Comment by m12 —
Not exactly cause-and-effect. They could be going to the state because there is a concealed-carry law, and there are more gunshot victims there to practice their craft on...
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:53 amTexas will be ok, though. Thanks to malpractice caps set up by Governor George W. Bush and his successor, doctors are fleeing to the state!
Comment by m12 — July 22, 2007 @ 1:48 am
Would you mind providing another one of your links to back that claim up? I'd be interested in trying to see if there are other reasons why this might be so.
And I never said anyting about malpractice caps, so why bring that up? It's been well-documented that malpractice awards are a small percentage of the overall healthcare costs in this country. Besides, the only doctors who would have to flee are the ones who are terrible enogh to get sued for the shoddy work they do.
And I feel confident that there will be plenty of doctors from other countries who would want the opportunity to live in this country to fill the void left by your fleeing doctors. Besides, since we're the last major industrialized country without universal healthcare (from what I understand), where would they all go?
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:55 amThus, Edwards net savings for forming the S corporation were about $591,000.
Enjoy.
Comment by m12 — July 22, 2007 @ 1:50 am
Yes, and Edwards would happily vote to eliminate that provision if it would go towards helping those less fortunate. Just as I would stop to pick up a twenty-dollar bill on the street, and keep it unless I saw who dropped it, at which point I would return it to that person. Edwards taking advantage of a S Corporation isn't quite "a loophole named after him", now, is it, you lazy liar?
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:55 am"How many transactions do you think occur daily in the US economy? Tell me, why have the Democrats not solved this problem is its so easy?"
Comment by m12
Political considerations - just like when Bush tried to use TIA to find terrorists. But the system can handle the data tracking involved...
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:56 amNot exactly cause-and-effect. They could be going to the state because there is a concealed-carry law, and there are more gunshot victims there to practice their craft on…
There are many states with concealed carry laws. But that isn't what doctors are saying.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/09/AR2007070901282.html
Several doctors who moved to Texas from other states said they were drawn by lower malpractice insurance rates.
The average malpractice insurance premiums in Texas have fallen by 21.3 percent since 2003, when lawmakers and voters implemented a $250,000 cap on non-economic damages such as pain and suffering in malpractice cases, according to Jon Opelt, who leads a group of doctors, hospitals and other health care providers that fought for the changes.
The changes are "a big factor why Texas has become a popular state to practice in," said Dr. Punit Chadha, an oncologist who moved from Chicago to Austin last year. He said his malpractice insurance premium is one-fourth of what it would have been in Chicago.
Dr. Kevin H. Brown, an obstetrician who opened a Round Rock practice with his wife in May, said they paid $130,000 a year for their malpractice insurance in Georgia. Now, they pay a combined annual premium of $82,000 a year.
"It was a $24,000 raise for each of us before we even got started," Brown said.
Even other red states like Georgia are losing out.
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:56 amYes, and Edwards would happily vote to eliminate that provision if it would go towards helping those less fortunate.
My, how generous! Abuse the loophole while you are making your millions, then gut the opportunity for future generations!
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:58 amMy aplogies, I misread your post. I did not see that little two-letter word "to". I thought you said they were "fleeing the state." Now that I saw the whole thing, the rest of the comments make sense.
But thanks for the link. Excuse me while I read it.
July 22nd, 2007 at 2:00 amHow many transactions do you think occur daily in the US economy? Tell me, why have the Democrats not solved this problem is its so easy?
Comment by m12 — July 22, 2007 @ 1:52 am
The question is, why haven't the Republicans? In the majority and the White House for 6 years, and more laws broken and more money stolen from the taxpayers and more lies told than any administration in recent history, and you want to blame Democrats? That's reminiscent of our country getting attacked by Saudis and Egyptians flying planes into buildings and then us attacking Iraq, and then losing. Republicans are really stupid.
July 22nd, 2007 at 2:01 amThe question is, why haven’t the Republicans? In the majority and the White House for 6 years, and more laws broken and more money stolen from the taxpayers and more lies told than any administration in recent history, and you want to blame Democrats?
We've had a tax gap for far larger than 6 years. Edwards' history of tax dodging was in the mid 1990s.
July 22nd, 2007 at 2:03 am“It was a $24,000 raise for each of us before we even got started,†Brown said.
Comment by m12 — July 22, 2007 @ 1:56 am
Hmmm, any chance they might have done something generous with their extra $48,000 per year, like provide free services to the poor? Or are they the type motivated by the money and not the desire to cure the sick and comfort the dying? I'm not sure this is a good example to use.
And, for the record, I do not believe in caps like that. Some mistakes are far worse than others and, like jail sentences, deserve harsher punishment.
July 22nd, 2007 at 2:03 amMy, how generous! Abuse the loophole while you are making your millions, then gut the opportunity for future generations!
Comment by m12 — July 22, 2007 @ 1:58 am
How is using the loophole abusing it? And why should future generations have the opportunity to hurt others to make some money? That's like saying I should leave that twenty on the ground for futeure generations. You're an idiot.
July 22nd, 2007 at 2:04 amComment by m12
And how does this impact patients damaged by incompetent physicians in Texas? If doctors are flocking to Texas because of caps, do those injured by physicians in Texas face a system stacked against them?
July 22nd, 2007 at 2:05 amWe’ve had a tax gap for far larger than 6 years. Edwards’ history of tax dodging was in the mid 1990s.
Comment by m12 — July 22, 2007 @ 2:03 am
So what? The Republicans had all the power and resouces to fix it, and didn't. Edwards' "tax dodging" is a pittance compared to Cheney's so we know why the repigs didn't fix it, because they were abusing it, and you and me while at it. Not fixing the problem in the 90s is no excuse for not fixing it in 2004.
July 22nd, 2007 at 2:06 amHow is using the loophole abusing it? And why should future generations have the opportunity to hurt others to make some money?
Got to love the absurdity of your statements!
You want to tax the rich.
Then you ask how using loopholes is abuse.
Then you say that future generations are hurting others with those loopholes!
Good day to you, sir!
July 22nd, 2007 at 2:06 amAnd how does this impact patients damaged by incompetent physicians in Texas? If doctors are flocking to Texas because of caps, do those injured by physicians in Texas face a system stacked against them?
Hardly, they get fully compensated for economic damages. What they don't get is millions of bucks in 'emotional suffering'!
July 22nd, 2007 at 2:07 amAnd how does this impact patients damaged by incompetent physicians in Texas? If doctors are flocking to Texas because of caps, do those injured by physicians in Texas face a system stacked against them?
Comment by barfly — July 22, 2007 @ 2:05 am
Of course they do. why else would a mass-murdering psychopath like Bush sign such a piece of crap?
July 22nd, 2007 at 2:08 amSo what? The Republicans had all the power and resouces to fix it, and didn’t. Edwards’ “tax dodging†is a pittance compared to Cheney’s so we know why the repigs didn’t fix it, because they were abusing it, and you and me while at it.
When was Cheney dodging taxes? During his tenure as CEO in the 90s while the Democrats were in charge?
July 22nd, 2007 at 2:08 amHmmm, any chance they might have done something generous with their extra $48,000 per year, like provide free services to the poor? Or are they the type motivated by the money and not the desire to cure the sick and comfort the dying? I’m not sure this is a good example to use.
No idea. But more doctors can only provide more competition for services.
At least some of that $48k will go to patients in the form of cheaper costs.
July 22nd, 2007 at 2:10 amComment by m12 — July 22, 2007 @ 2:06 am
Of course the rich should be heavily taxed; it doesn't affect their quality of life. Until they are, though, there is no reason they shouldn't utilize the options made available to them. I notice you didn't bother to answer why using loopholes isn't abuse, though, since all republicans use them to the nth and final degree, even unto illegality. And, again, you had 6byears with no resistance to fix this problem, but, in truth, it's only a problem if a Democrat does it, right? You are the very definition of absurd.
July 22nd, 2007 at 2:14 amOf course the rich should be heavily taxed;
I'll ask you the same question...how do you heavily tax the rich?
July 22nd, 2007 at 2:15 amWhat they don’t get is millions of bucks in ‘emotional suffering’!
Comment by m12 — July 22, 2007 @ 2:07 am
Because no one damaged in surgery (for example) should be compensated for emotional suffering - even if crippled for life. Patients should only be compensated for the actual damage done at the time - not the complications which might arise, years later.
July 22nd, 2007 at 2:15 amI’ll ask you the same question…how do you heavily tax the rich?
Comment by m12
Estate taxes.
July 22nd, 2007 at 2:17 amAt least some of that $48k will go to patients in the form of cheaper costs.
Comment by m12 — July 22, 2007 @ 2:10 am
another non-fact pulled from your ass.
Cheney has been ripping off the taxpayer for 40 years. Tax dodges are pushed through Republican congresses, that's why they run. Republicans have been the party of profits over people for 100 years.
July 22nd, 2007 at 2:17 amThe marginal tax rate in the 50s was 90% for the very wealthy, and it was a period of amazing growth and prosperity. You should study history instead of Republican talking points. The decline in tax rates for the rich signals a decline in the morals of the rich. No surprise that we have a deserter and a 5-deferment draft-dodger ruining this country today.
July 22nd, 2007 at 2:20 amNo idea. But more doctors can only provide more competition for services.
At least some of that $48k will go to patients in the form of cheaper costs.
Comment by m12 — July 22, 2007 @ 2:10 am
Sorry, m12, but you're missing the point again. You're still trying to make healthcare a "for profit" industry, and the whole point is to eliminate the greed for money out of it and concentrate on improving HEALTH, not WEALTH.
I'm sorry that you don't view your fellow human beings as being worthy of your compassion. I can only hope that when the time comes that you need help, those around you don't share your attitude.
Actually, I think you would be surprised at how helpful and generous your fellow human beings can be. Not everyone is motivated by the same things that motivate you. I hope you realize that and can appreciate it some day before it's too late.
I have to say goodnight now. Thank you everyone for a lively discussion. Sorry if I derailed it earlier, but it looks like everyone came back and joined in.
And, Kalashnikov, wherever you are, I did appreciate and enjoy the civil and, for the most part, intelligent discussion you and I shared. Perhaps I can suggest that the next time you visit TP, pretend one of the other posters is me using another name and extend them the same courtesy. As I said before, I think you can contribute something positive to the discussion, even if it's just to hone our debating skills. I can't speak for others, but you were polite with me once we started the dialog about the topic at hand and got past the earlier "unpleasantness".
And, everyone, I have a confession to make. The vast majority of this was, for me, off the top of my head. I haven't studied the issue in any depth, and most of the ideas I posted were coming from my own thoughts (about things I've heard previously, but I had no statistics to cite or anything.) I simply started with my belief that healthcare should not be a "for profit" industry and took it from there.
Keep up the civil discussion while I sleep. And thank you all.
Good night and Peace on Earth.
July 22nd, 2007 at 2:24 amSleep soundly, Wayne.
"The marginal tax rate in the 50s was 90% for the very wealthy, and it was a period of amazing growth and prosperity."
But not so much for corporations. They made profits mostly on the vagaries of supply and demand (with a little creative advertising). It wasn't until later that they learned to game the system by limiting supply to create artificial demand.
July 22nd, 2007 at 2:31 amAny rational reasons why you, your wife and some people who post comments to blogs can't be responsible for oversight on a $2b government program ?
Anyone ? Any rational flaws in that idea you can spot ?
July 22nd, 2007 at 3:25 amNo kidding ?
July 22nd, 2007 at 3:28 amI have a lot of friends in Canada and some in England. They hate their health care systems. Very long waits. Impersonal. They feel like cattle.
I hope the Democrats don't screw up health care like they've screwed up the education system.
July 22nd, 2007 at 4:12 amKilo: Are you Kalashnikov's evil twin? (That is not to say that at times Kalashnikov hasn't been his own evil twin!)
You, kilo, are a troll. You come in here to flame with hatred at those with whom you disagree.
UNDER THE BRIDGE, NASTY KALASHNIKOV'S-EVIL-TWIN TROLL!
July 22nd, 2007 at 4:35 amNow back to the topic. Drudge is a NeoCon water carrier, and his having put the for-profit, lack-of-health care industry's scare-tactic advertisement on his site is no surprise. The NeoCons LOVE the status quo, with 45+ million American citizens, whom the NeoCons HATE and LOVE to see DIE, suffering for the NeoCons' (like Drudge's and his Pimps") lack of humanity and compassion.
Health care in this country is broken. It needs to be fixed. That won't happen until the NeoCons (in BOTH of the current monopolistic political parties) are out of office!
July 22nd, 2007 at 4:47 amA buddy of mine from Yale days went on to law school and eventually was head of legal at Blue Cross. He retired a few years ago and they gave him a 22 million dollar handshake. His sole job at BC was to find ANY legal way to deny claims against policy language. As well as some illegal ways when they knew the client would not balk at the denial. I asked him how in hell ONE lawyer retiring, could walk away with 22 goddamn million dollars. His answer was, "Oh you are SO naive about the insurance industry in the US."
July 22nd, 2007 at 5:35 amOf course the rich should be heavily taxed; it doesn’t affect their quality of life.
So, let's implement flat rax rate with no loopholes. 10% of a $1000000 is still much more than 10% of $10000. There's your heavy tax. Progressive taxation with loopholes is just ridiculous.
July 22nd, 2007 at 6:33 amOf course lies and propaganda made its way onto Drudge. once again the shite rolls downhill into the cesspool. Run with Drudgy....it makes a great headline.
July 22nd, 2007 at 6:43 amI'm Australian.
We have a hugely popular universal publicly funded health system.
Drugs are affordable.
We live longer than Americans.
Our health spending per capita is less than half that of the US.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/hea_spe_per_per-health-spending-per-person
If you want to provoke an armed uprising in Australia, abolish Medicare and tell people you are bringing in a US-style privatised system.
July 22nd, 2007 at 6:47 amhttp://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/8382
“Yeah, so? Are you a doctor? Do you give away your services to save lives and cure diseases?â€
Comment by m12
I'm not a doctor, but here is a fellow who is, and who is fed up with the current system:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Z55IHRsMQs
THANK YOU to Michael Moore for making this such a discussed issue.
I am amazed that anyone (including trolls and neo-cons, but excepting unethical, amoral CEOs) would speak against a single payer system. They only arguments against it are either selfish ("I'll have to wait longer for treatment if the 50 million uninsured start getting the treatment they morally deserve") or paranoid ("I don't trust the government to run it"). Personally, I'd prefer to see the gov't running a program that helps people get and stay healthy, rather than a war that senselessly kills thousands upon thousands...
July 22nd, 2007 at 7:56 amReally ? Those are the only ones ?
And every negative story about the operation and symptoms of the systems in the UK, France, Cuba, Australia etc don't qualify as arguments against it then ?
Just those 2 ? Selfish and paranoid. Sure.
Gee, glab we got passed that whole biased, on-sided portrayal of the debate and finally heard all the arguments against.
July 22nd, 2007 at 8:30 amThe International Strawman Society salutes you.
And every negative story about the operation and symptoms of the systems in the UK, France, Cuba, Australia etc don’t qualify as arguments against it then ?
Comment by Kilo — July 22, 2007 @ 8:30 am
Sources? Citations? I thought not. See this page for Moore's sources.
The International Strawman Society, after a quick consultation, withdrew their salute toward me and have begun work on a statue in your likeness. It will, of course, weigh one Kilo.
But I do grant you this: I did mis-write. There are other reasons one might argue against a single payer system. Ignorance of the benefits of a universal health care model and fear of change ("Think progress" is the name of this site; to do so requires both a functioning brain and a willingness to move forward) are examples.
July 22nd, 2007 at 8:54 amfatso is a crook and a lier
July 22nd, 2007 at 9:38 amWell, I can't let dogshite get the last word on this thread.
My doctor hates the current healthcare system, and would love to have a national healthcare system. She hates the HMOs because they impede her ability to treat her patients properly. While not the most serious problem anyone has ever suffered, in my case I suffer from ear problems ever since I had an illness which caused blisters on my eardrums.* Allegra helps keep the fluids from building up in my ears, but, since the HMO does not include that as a valid reason for prescribing Allegra, it is not covered, even though it is the most effective means for preventing continuing earaches for me. So I either do without, or suffer from chronic ear problems, for which I still have to be treated every few months.
*I forget the name of the disease, but apparently it's rare enough that when my doctor diagnosed it, she brought in the other doctors in the office to take a look at something they had only seen in textbooks.
July 22nd, 2007 at 10:03 amWhen I was on assignment in Germany, I lived off the economy - that is lived under the same restraints and benefits as a German citizen. Our family medical expenses were basicly zero and service was provided promptly and with expertise. Hospital rooms were small, but private. In all, coming back to to US was like re-entering the middle ages.
July 22nd, 2007 at 10:42 amA neighbor who was assigned to France received a new kidney and did not see any bills until he returned here and had to start co-paying for the rejection drugs.
#27
Can anyone answer my question:
Why is TP devoting an entire thread to an ad at the Drudge Report?
I think by the number of responses in this thread, it should answer your question. A lot of people agree that the health care system is shit. Talk to a MAJORITY of people in this country, and you'll find a story about insurance companies giving them lame excuses why they won't cover a procedure.
I also think it is pretty pathetic argument to say we shouldn't have any other kind of health care system because we'll have to wait in line. That's what military service is, for chriminy sakes. Anybody wait at the DMV? What about waiting in line to pay at the beginning of semesters at any large college? For that matter, people wait for hours after scheduling appointments for the doctor. Gimme a break, wait in line. Tell that to people who don't have health care. They'd love to wait in line if they knew that they could see a doctor.
Again, no system is perfect, but clearly our system is not very compassionate. I believe we have the best care, but can you get it? That is the issue.
July 22nd, 2007 at 10:59 amBecause no one damaged in surgery (for example) should be compensated for emotional suffering - even if crippled for life. Patients should only be compensated for the actual damage done at the time - not the complications which might arise, years later.
If there are complications, they get compensated for that as well.
Why do you support lawsuits for high non-economic damages, which, are by the definition of the term, profits off the health care industry?
July 22nd, 2007 at 11:10 amEstate taxes.
Comment by barfly — July 22, 2007 @ 2:17 am
The same estate taxes that are easily avoidable through trusts? Well, ok...
We already have a high estate tax.
July 22nd, 2007 at 11:15 amWhy do you support lawsuits for high non-economic damages, which, are by the definition of the term, profits off the health care industry?
Comment by m12 — July 22, 2007 @ 11:10 am
Why should the healthcare industry "profit" off damaging people? Are there any limits to your inhumanity to man, or should people be allowed to treat other people any way they like and still get rich off it? I'm serious. Where exactly do you draw the line on acceptable inhumanity?
The same estate taxes that are easily avoidable through trusts? Well, ok…
We already have a high estate tax.
Comment by m12 — July 22, 2007 @ 11:15 am
And, of course, the law can be changed to avoid this loophole. And if the Republicans had their way, there would be no estate taxes at all! They are only interested intaxing earned income, not unearned income from things like trusts, dividends and interest. And no, the estate taxes are not too "high". Right now you can pass something like 1.2 million dollars onto your children tax free (unless they raised that number.) Whwen the Republicans were trying to eliminate estate taxes altogether, the Democrats wanted to increase the cutoff to $5 milion dollars. You would be able to pass $5,000,000 to your kids tax free. The Republicans even shot this down. And they scoff when we say they want to protect the rich inthsi country.
July 22nd, 2007 at 11:28 amm12, you can't avoid estate taxes through a trust (other than the pass through trust for a married couple). A trust will help you avoid probate, which can be quite costly.
I'm against the death tax. Why should dying be a taxable event?
I understand why we don't want to create royalty. We should move up the "tax free" inheritance to $10 million and index it to inflation, and be done with it. This would protect small businesses and people with smaller nest eggs.
Besides, the government won't get much from a higher death tax.
People like Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are going to leave the bulk of their estates to charity. The government won't get a dime of that no matter what the death tax rate is.
My friends who are multi-millionaires are doing the same thing.
That's what the liberals don't understand. Rich people are the most charitable and philanthropic people around. They give so much money to charities.
July 22nd, 2007 at 11:34 amWhy should the healthcare industry “profit†off damaging people? Are there any limits to your inhumanity to man, or should people be allowed to treat other people any way they like and still get rich off it? I’m serious. Where exactly do you draw the line on acceptable inhumanity?
How are they profiting? A surgeon collects maybe $50k on a surgery and pays out hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of bucks in economic damages!
And, of course, the law can be changed to avoid this loophole. And if the Republicans had their way, there would be no estate taxes at all! They are only interested intaxing earned income, not unearned income from things like trusts, dividends and interest. And no, the estate taxes are not too “highâ€. Right now you can pass something like 1.2 million dollars onto your children tax free (unless they raised that number.) Whwen the Republicans were trying to eliminate estate taxes altogether, the Democrats wanted to increase the cutoff to $5 milion dollars. You would be able to pass $5,000,000 to your kids tax free.
It's actually $2 million, which really isn't that much with modern property values. But if you think it's so simple to close the loopholes in our million line tax code, write to the Democrats!
July 22nd, 2007 at 11:38 amm12, you can’t avoid estate taxes through a trust (other than the pass through trust for a married couple). A trust will help you avoid probate, which can be quite costly.
You most certainly can, in several ways. Here are 2 of them, although the 2nd isnt a trust, per se.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/01/21/business/yourmoney/21money.html?ex=1295499600&en=15b7651732d41534&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss
In 1999, Farhad Aghdami, a trust lawyer in Richmond, Va., suggested to Jim and Yolonda Roberts that they put their home in a Qualified Personal Residence Trust to shelter it from looming estate taxes.
Piedmont Lodge, the Robertses' white clapboard house with six portico columns sitting on 53 acres near Keswick, Va., was worth about $1.6 million back then. The trust lets them give the property to their four children for about a third of what it was valued at in 1999. The couple, now 75 years old, can live in the home for the 10-year term of the trust. When the trust expires in three years, the house belongs to the children.
Here's where you slap yourself. The home is probably worth close to $4 million now. All of that appreciation was removed from the Roberts estate. "We are very happy with how it worked out," said Mr. Roberts, a retired Exxon executive. "We love the house and wanted to keep it in the family."
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/0728-09.htm
In recent months some of the wealthiest older Americans have been buying huge life insurance policies on themselves. Curiously, these people have shopped not for the cheapest rates but for the highest rates they can find. In some cases, they delightedly pay 10 times the lowest rates for that insurance.
Why would anyone willingly pay so much?
Taxes.
Through a technique invented by a lawyer in New York and a chemical engineer in California, each dollar spent on this insurance can typically eliminate $9 in taxes. Spend $10 million on this insurance, avoid $90 million or more in income, gift, generation-skipping and estate taxes.
July 22nd, 2007 at 11:46 amI’m against the death tax. Why should dying be a taxable event?
...
That’s what the liberals don’t understand. Rich people are the most charitable and philanthropic people around. They give so much money to charities.
Comment by muckdog — July 22, 2007 @ 11:34 am
You are not taxing the death, don't you now that?!?! You are taxing the NEW PERSON who has income. Like any OTHER transfer of monies. It's the same as if you got a $50 million bonus from your job, you get taxed on it. If you sell a business for $50 million, you get taxed for it. If you sell a house for $50 million you get taxed for it, even though everyone else who previously sold that house ALSO got taxed for it. The inheritor is paying taxes because THEY just received a new source of income, not because their relative or friend died.
As for the rich giving ore than the poor? Well, yeah, because they HAVE MORE. But the poor take care of others with the means they have available. You will not see the wealthy letting a friend and their entire family live with them for a month or two until they get back on their feet NEARLY as often as the poor or middle class are willing to do. You will not see the wealthy give as much of their TIME going out and feeding the poor, or volunteering for charity work, etc. Do they? Of course. But most of the volunteers in soup kitchens, shelters, charities etc, are most assuredly NOT WEALTHY PEOPLE.
The poor give what they have: time and labor. The rich give what they have: money. Don't be so bloody naive.
July 22nd, 2007 at 11:56 amIt’s actually $2 million, which really isn’t that much with modern property values. But if you think it’s so simple to close the loopholes in our million line tax code, write to the Democrats!
Comment by m12 — July 22, 2007 @ 11:38 am
Through a technique invented by a lawyer in New York and a chemical engineer in California, each dollar spent on this insurance can typically eliminate $9 in taxes. Spend $10 million on this insurance, avoid $90 million or more in income, gift, generation-skipping and estate taxes.
Comment by m12 — July 22, 2007 @ 11:46 am
And those legal loopholes should be closed, not ENCOURAGED. As for the Democrats fixing it, right now they won't. Why? Because politics is "pay to play", so the politicians in DC are already wealthy and elite. Why would they change the laws to hurt themselves? Thus, the need for the banning of money in politics. Thus the need for election reform, and lobby reform.
Disingenuous, sir. Disingenuous.
July 22nd, 2007 at 11:59 amThe health care community can try to smear SICKO all they want. The difference between today and back when they had "Harry & Louise" is that the public has been living the health care nightmare since then. I have health insurance. If I want to make an appointment to see my doctor, unless I am currently dying, I have to wait a minimum of a month for an appointment. To me, that's waiting in line.
The other difference between then and now is that many doctors would like to see some sort of universal health care. Recently I switched jobs (and concurrently health plans). When I went to choose a doctor under my new health plan, I asked the first doctor I saw what they thought about universal health care. He said, he's against it because he doesn't want some "government bureaucrat" telling him how to practice medicine. I asked him how that is any different than a health care company bureaucrat telling them how to practice medicine. I said that I would rather have the government bureaucrat, who wasn't in it to make a huge profit, make the decisions over a health care company bureaucrat who was trying to increase their profit margins. That pretty much shut that doctor up. And, I went looking for another doctor. The doctor I have now is all for a single-payer health plan like they have in many other industrialized nations. He said "I went into medicine to practice medicine, not to fight with health insurance companies".
It was very smart of Michael Moore to orient Sicko around the people who do have insurance, rather than those who don't. That is because the majority of us are living the health care nightmare even though we have health insurance.
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:09 pmDo you have a health care plan where, if you need surgery that isn't immediately urgent, you can get the surgery promptly? If you do, you have an exceptional insurance plan.
I recently needed minor surgery and I had to wait 3 months before they could schedule it for me. That is really no different than what happens in, say England. My sister lives in England and will never come back to the USA because she likes living in a country that thinks health care is a right and not a privilege. I once asked her about the argument that they had to wait for surgery. She replied "yes, we do have to wait for elective surgery or other surgery that doesn't immediately threaten our life or our health". On the other hand, if it does threaten our life or our health, we get that surgery immediately. And that is why the people who don't immediately need surgery have to wait. We understand that it is all part of a process that takes care of the people who need it the most first. And we don't mind a bit.
July 22nd, 2007 at 12:15 pmThat’s what the liberals don’t understand. Rich people are the most charitable and philanthropic people around. They give so much money to charities.
Comment by muckdog — July 22, 2007 @ 11:34 am
Glad to know somebody knows more charitable rich then I and I reside in the most affluent community in my state. Are you scaling your data for resources or just looking at the bottom line or is there no data and this is your opinion stated as fact?
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:10 pmThat’s what the liberals don’t understand. Rich people are the most charitable and philanthropic people around. They give so much money to charities.
Comment by muckdog — July 22, 2007 @ 11:34 am
But they keep so much more of it for themselves.
You know, there is such a thing as having too much money. You can only spend so much during one lifetime, or even two.
For example, having more than, say, $1 Billion, is unnecessary to survive. Better yet, make that $100 Million. Even that should be enough for anyone to live on.
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:33 pmWayne, you're missing the point. And you're wrong.
Bill Gates is giving over 95% of his estate to charity. Same with Warren Buffet. The government isn't going to get any of that no matter what the death tax rate is.
So why bother with a death tax if the rich are going to give their money to charity anyways?
It won't raise the money you think it will.
And you also to claim to know how much is enough for other people. That's a slippery slope. Why do you get to decide how much is enough for others? That's the thing with liberals. They want to tell folks how much they can make, what kind of car they should drive, what kind of light bulbs to buy, when to do their laundry, etc.
Screw you. I make those decisions for myself. You do not get to decide.
July 22nd, 2007 at 1:54 pmThey want to tell folks how much they can make, what kind of car they should drive, what kind of light bulbs to buy, when to do their laundry, etc.
No I think liberals simply ask others to consider how their desire for too much effects those with too little. If you feel judging how much is too much is a slippery slope how to you feel about the growing gap bettween the haves and nots. Are you okay with you ever smaller processers for your electronic trinketry and all the other excesses which are entirely unneeded while the coltrain and other rarer ores are mined under slavish conditions?
July 22nd, 2007 at 2:05 pmhow to you feel about the growing gap bettween the haves and nots.
That's a propaganda sound bite and not reality. It is true that the poor are still poor. That's because they lack education, motivation, or whatever. But the middle class and rich are continuing to grow.
A problem with the liberals is that they confuse middle class and poor. They'll say "how can the middle class make it on minimum wage?" Answer: The middle class doesn't work for minimum wage, so the question is non sequitur."
(The kids of the middle class often work for minimum wage when they are teenagers, but that's just a first-time job on their career paths).
The middle class and wealthy continue to do well and have the highest net wealth in this nation's history.
But yes, the poor are still poor. Mostly through their lifestyle choices. Joining gangs. Doing drugs. Getting pregnant at 15. Dropping out of school. Etc.
July 22nd, 2007 at 2:33 pmThe 'healthcare' industry is so much bullsh*t. Their only job is to get people into 'managed' situations where they are dependent on drugs/therapy for the long term thus ensuring profitability. I personally have been fighting the system for three plus years suffering from debilitating headaches, fatigue, brain fog, blackouts and am now wasting away losing weight. After thousands of dollars and nearly a dozen MDs from my HMO to free clinics to full private pay is 'get over it', live with it' or get a job and you will fell better. I have worked since I was 16 and am now 45 and would love to work at ANYTHING if I could. I had to resort to painkillers due to complete lack of concern or care by the 'system'. I am now down to my last few hundred dollars and am actually looking forward to committing suicide to end the pain and suffering as well as shame and humiliation of basically being told 'your nuts f*ck off!. I lost my job, my house, my pension and can only now look forward to helping some of these 'docs' lose the same and more before I check out. When they strip you of everything including your dignity they earn the right to IRS audits, DEA licensing reviews and even drug testing. When the local hospital successfully covers up the fact they employed 2 child molesters in the papers and the local D.A is a pothead you know there is absolutely no way you can get honest caring compassionate care. To top it all off the friendly IRS is calculating my tax burden even tough I have not worked since 2004- I'm f*cking dying and all they care about is squeezing more money out of me. It must be the conservative compassion of the ruling party- if you cant help yourself forget about all those government programs you been paying into for decades- just kill yourself. Well they won but I choose the when and where and who goes with.
July 22nd, 2007 at 4:35 pmOK...I'm kinda scared now...
July 22nd, 2007 at 5:38 pmIs this guy planning a murder-
suicide?!
But yes, the poor are still poor. Mostly through their lifestyle choices. Joining gangs. Doing drugs. Getting pregnant at 15. Dropping out of school. Etc.
Comment by muckdog — July 22, 2007 @ 2:33 pm
You seem to love the stereotype. The rich have not gotten any richer thru harder labors and the poor are not losers. These are simply images which have been created to maintain the statsus quo. You bought in easily it appears.
July 22nd, 2007 at 6:06 pmComment by dbadass — July 22, 2007 @ 6:06 pm
You're right. I mean, it's not as if Bush being born into a wealthy family had nothing to do with him being a millionaire. Every one of business ventures was a failure. He has the money he has today because of his family and their connections (and his friend James R. Bath, who appears to have disappeared off th face of the Earth).
July 22nd, 2007 at 6:16 pmIf corporations endorse this then it's obviously a lie. Profits before people.
July 22nd, 2007 at 6:29 pmYou seem to love the stereotype. The rich have not gotten any richer thru harder labors and the poor are not losers. These are simply images which have been created to maintain the statsus quo. You bought in easily it appears.
Did you memorize that from DailyKos? Because that's the dumbest most incorrect thing I've heard all year. Do you have any original thoughts?
The rich I know work 60+ hours a week. They're workaholics. Many own businesses.
Most rich are folks who make middle-class incomes who spend less than they make and invest the difference over a lifetime. This is well documented by research in the book The Millionaire Next Door.
The poor in the US are mostly there because of bad decision making. It's a stereotype because it's true in most cases. Like saying "the summer is hot."
July 22nd, 2007 at 9:18 pmThe only time I did not have to wait at the Dr. Office was when I went to the ass Dr. and paid cash.
July 22nd, 2007 at 9:21 pmDid you memorize that from DailyKos? Because that’s the dumbest most incorrect thing I’ve heard all year. Do you have any original thoughts?
No no I didn't. Only been there once in my life. Found the format somewhat awkward. Anyway I live in the center of wasp wealth. I find through personal today and again tomorrow life that your version is false. I trust that your life experience supports your assumptions/ideas/post and I fault you not if that is your ethic. I just a different ethic. Until recently I have seen the value system of those which have neither earned their wealth nor desire it. I'll admit it was sweet for a while till I realized how unjust and immoral it all was. Show me the rich saint or person of wisdom...
July 22nd, 2007 at 9:37 pmI had an issue with my insurance company -- I was waiting to get approved for a procedure that was covered under my plan. I work for ford/uaw I have great insurance...but still they dragged their feet...and only after a call that I would hand this matter over to my benefit rep at work...they called quickly to approve.....
after seeing Michael Moore's film sicko... I wondered how many people they would screw over to make up for what they paid on my behalf....I have someone at my work place to deal with the insurance companies... but I feel for the one's who don't.
July 23rd, 2007 at 12:34 amSince condescending, trite posts seem to be en vogue here, I thought I'd chime in with some facts that can actually be backed up, didn't come from a movie, and act like the rest of you at the same time.
Do any of you actually work in the insurance industry and know how well Medicaid and Medicare actually works? There's a reason that prescription plan ads are popping up everywhere, because they sell well to people on those programs.... Often times it's an issue of going back to your doctor and getting DIFFERENT MEDICATION because your Medicare backer won't cover it.
Are any of you over the age of 25? Medicare and Medicaid is last-resort condemnation, not anything I'd be citing as an example of an effective socialized medicine.
My wife has spent a lot of time doing prescription management for these systems, and they were flawed before the transition, they're seriously flawed now, and people still aren't getting what they need. Her father is working 3 jobs to keep her mother insured (yes, on private insurance) because her diabetes needs aren't being addressed on "socialized medicine".
I'm not saying socialized medicine is a bad idea, but when citing those examples, step away from the serious modicum of groupthink or hell, at least know WTF you're talking about. Look at places like Canada and Europe that are getting it right -- also pay attention to the difference in taxes they pay, as while that may not matter when you're working at McDonalds, you'll care a lot more when you have 3 kids and a decent job.
July 23rd, 2007 at 12:37 am"The poor in the US are mostly there because of bad decision making. It’s a stereotype because it’s true in most cases."
Comment by muckdog — July 22, 2007 @ 9:18 pm
Yeah, all those kids living in poverty really should have chosen to be born to rich people.
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:09 amI used to live in Germany, which is a socialized country and now I am an insurance agent in the U.S. What I can tell you is that I pay more taxes here than I did there. Sure I paid 50% from my check, but here they take 30% and I still owe at the end of the year, there is sales tax, newspaper tax property tax, gas tax, beer tax, etc.
They have no homeless and university is free, the health care is wonderful. I never had to wait. Here in America I have to wait to be told I do not need an MRI for my knee, I will just have to live with the pain for the rest of my life. In a socialized country that would never have happened.
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:32 amComment by Sister — July 23, 2007 @ 2:32 am
Thank you for your comment. I'm sorry about your knee, but I wish that more people here in the U.S. would listen to stories such as yours, and not be so dismissive when someone like Michael Moore points out the discrepancies between our healthcare system and that of other civilized countries. Not to mention, on top of all of the great things that Germany has to offer, such as free university, Germany is way ahead of the U.S. regarding recognizing and taking steps to combat global warming.
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:56 amour Health care system does need work but I am more concerned as to why Americans are the most sickly of industrialized nations. Health care isn't the problem. Diabetes is rampant in our nation so is cancer, autism etc. Something is making people in our nation sick. Michael Moore should do a documentary on the root cause of illness in our nation, the food supply. Obesity is skyrocketing, America has the most overweight people of any nation on earth. I hope that someday Michael Moore does an indepth examination of our food supply..The food industry is making us all fat!!!!!
July 23rd, 2007 at 7:47 amBush go You to Iraq to fight!
July 23rd, 2007 at 8:29 amBush have to resign.
Bush have to resign.
July 23rd, 2007 at 8:29 amBush go You to Iraq to fight!
Bush have to resign. RESIGN. RESIGN.
July 23rd, 2007 at 8:30 amThis is crap man, just crap.
July 23rd, 2007 at 9:48 amType "hospitals" and "beds" into a news archive search. Or try "doctors" and "chronic shortage". There is no month or year you won't find a result from.
Our admin manager at work has her grandmother in hospital with respiratory problems.
She has to travel 120km / 100miles to visit her at a hospital. Not the local hospital, not one at the 2 larger cities on the way, not the larger regional hospital which is closer in the other direction, but in a suburb of Sydney.
This is because they had the only available intensive care bed available for her in the whole state.
This is why she had to wait hours at the local that couldn't treat her then take a helicopter ride that otherwise wouldn't have been necessary.
1 intensive care bed available in Sydney. For the state.
Figure out whether theres a problem there can ya ?
Of course you can. Everyone can. It's just admitting it is the hard part.
Yeah whatever pal. Go join everyone else who's to scared to address any of the inherent drawbacks of universal health care while talking about fear.
July 23rd, 2007 at 10:12 amYa look credible. You really do.
See there you go undermining the message.
July 23rd, 2007 at 10:18 amThe rampant obesity and diabetes are just coincidences. The life expectancy statistics aren't related to lifestyles, it's the health care system that's to blame.
At Saint Marry's Hospital in Langhorne PA we have the worst service ever. When I got my appendix taken out I waited 24 hours to see a real doctor and almost died of toxic shock because it was decaying inside me. Then I almost died of dehydration because I wasnt allowed to drink anything and they didn't give me enough IV fluid then I went back into the hospital 2 more times because they didn't clean it out right and it got infected. I spent 3 months in the hospital for an APPENDIX surgery. At one point my mom had me transfered to PENN State Children's Hospital because she thought they were going to kill me.
I also spent 2 hours sitting in the ER bleeding from my leg after I got a 3 inch gash that was showing bone. Nobody even gave me a bandage I had a paper towel that I brought from my house by the time I got my stiches the paper towel was drenched with blood.
I have full health insurance coverage and my parents combined income is somewhere around 250k a year but our local hospital is crap it has the worst reputation ever anyone in our area avoids going there if at all possible.
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:11 pmWith my American health insurance policy (Blue Shield HMO), it's very common that I wait at least 3 to 4 weeks to see my specialist. And for my primary care physician (PCP), the wait would be at least 2 weeks!
So, if you are an American having HMO, the wait is about the same or worse than any wait in Canada or Europe, which practice universal health care.
It's now should be obvious to the American public that the American people have been shafted by the Mafia in the insurance industry. They've been 'programmed' to accept the rip-off deal dumped on them for years. The American politicians are too corrupt to do any thing good about the broken health care system.
It's time the people take the matter in their hands and stop trusting the politicians to do any thing in their interests. It's obvious that those politicians are doing their best to serve their masters in the health care industry at the expense of the American people's health, safety, and survival.
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:40 pmHad the samething happen to me. Had an accident where I large piec of broken class went into my wrist. Bleed like hell. I went to the emergency room and sat for an hour before being called just to do the paperwork. By that time the towel I had wraped around mr wrist was dripping blood. The nuse looked at me and with a blank face asked me what was wrong. I just held out by arm and let the blood drip on her.
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:51 pmIt was another hour and a half before a doctor came to look and by that time I was starting to pass out.
I always hear these anti-healthcare people mention that "You will have to pay higher taxes." True, but how much? Will it be more than what one is haveing deducten from his/her pay each week? I doubt it. Companies that say they provide healthcare coverage manage to advoid how much comes out of a workers check.
Kilo and Kalashnikov[hereafter K dudes],
Although I address this comment to you, if is not for you, but rather about you. You represent a sample of the typical american [hereafter the sheeple].I do not expect an erudite response from either of you nor do I desire one. Your track record is such that you will have nothing to add beyond what you have already [hereafter know as nothing]
I grew up in Canada and England and have lived and worked in France, Costa Rica, and Venezuela. I currently live in the USA [heretofore known as the land of my wife- a doctor].
From experience I can tell you that all systems have their good and bad points. In my experience I can tell you that French GP's like suppositories more than US docs. Of course, medical research backs them up the French on this.
However I have experienced longer waits and much less co-ordinated care here than anywhere else. I am currently waiting for a surgical consult for potential surgury cue to an acute spinal injury after a car accident. My wait time is 2 months. As a result I have called my old family doc in Canada [whom I have not seen for about 20 years] and he has an appointment for me next week with a top neurosurgicy doc. I have not lived in Canada for almost 20 years and have not paid taxes. But I am a citizen so I am covered. I will not even have to pay a deductible.
I know your response will be that I don't have insurance or that I chose inferior insurance and thus have what is coming to me. This is not true. When I tell my friends and neighbors about my coverage [I was curious how it stacked up so I asked] they tell me that my coverage is "cadilac" which means, I beleive, that I have much better than average coverage.
My wife is furious and is inquiring with practices in Canada, England and France to join them. She has had enough of the system. As a patriot and fan or Jeffersonian philosophy, I have encouraged her to stay, but still we look. In America, on average, she gets paid 30 - 50% of her charges [this is typical by the way] for service. And the wait time for payment, assuming that there are no inquiries or denials, is anywhere from 6 months to 1.5 years. Think of your jobs for a moment and decide if you would live with recieving 30 - 50% of your pay after that kind of delay. Your doctor does.
In the meantime she pays rent, advertising, and salaries and benefits for employees. Do you not see a problem with this? More Docs are either moving out of the country or specializing in more arcane specializations. Does it not occur to you that the reason that house calls still happen in other countries is because they have GP's and we don't have enough to go around. many rural areas in the US have no access to any care. The same is true for [inner] cities.
And for this we pay more per person than any other country for much worse outcomes. Does not the conservative in you find this inefficient? Or is greed the only virtue you worship? I must assume you are an insurance executive or in their employ somehow [perhaps professional trolls?]. If not then I must say that your proctologist just called and wants me to tell you that he found your heads.
The medical system here is bloated with inefficiencies at the administrative level and there are no incentives to change.
Americans are good at fixing things but are slow to react to problems. I suggest you get started. It is already costing the country billions in direct costs and trillions in indirect costs. That is the argument for conservatives, and now the liberal- it is costing lives.
And so dear K-dudes, I urge you to open your minds and dust off your hearts. Stop being concerned with the trivial and look at the big picture. America, this great country and her people, suffer, and they do not have to.
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:56 pmSee there you go undermining the message.
The rampant obesity and diabetes are just coincidences. The life expectancy statistics aren’t related to lifestyles, it’s the health care system that’s to blame.
Comment by Kilo — July 23, 2007 @ 10:18 am
What Does the Healthcare system have to do what people put in their mouths? Does your doctor need to tell you that Snack foods should not replace meals? I would hope not! Not everying is related to a pay-per-use health care system.
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:58 pmI would not blame the heath care system for this. People are lazy! Even if you look back 9 years ago in this nation people were not this fat. Everybody has to have riding lawn mowers, fast food, and desk jobs. We are a nation of convenience, and this is the result. If you look: http://www.doctorslounge.com/primary/articles/obesity_death/ back in 2004 being overweight was becoming the leading cause of death.
We wait in traffic for hours everyday.
I don't mind waiting to see a doctor. For those who have no insurance, even that opportunity is a blessing.
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:15 pmI'd a lot rather have to wait for a surgery that can and will save my life, than have someone arbitrarily tell me I won't get it at all because either it's "experimental" or "not medically necessary" or some similar bunch of garbage.
July 23rd, 2007 at 6:10 pmIf there has ever been a more useless pile of crap than Matt Drudge, I've sure as hell been unable to find it. I remember the first time I ever came across his site with that idiotic picture of him in his Walter Winchell get-up. I laughed my ass off and that's the way I've looked at his "reporting" ever since.
I do not find it surprising that he's running ads and carrying the water for the big health care companies or any other major corporate enterprises and can not understand why anybody takes this buffoon seriously.
July 23rd, 2007 at 10:45 pmKeep in mind that when one points out the lower pay for doctors in the U.K. and France that doctors in those countries have their medical school bills paid for by the government, so they don't have to start off their careers $150,000 in debt. As government employees, they also don't have to pay for the expenses of their practices, not to mention that outrageous malpractice insurance that health care professionals in the States have to pay.
July 24th, 2007 at 1:42 amThe difference being you're the one guy with that one health insurer getting knocked back on that one treatment.
As opposed to everyone who needs a hospital bed who can't get one for any reason.
You think the former situation is preferable do you.
2nd story just from those I work with - our finance manager who did get into our local hospital with a collapsed lung. Got kicked out 1 day afterwardsbecause they needed the beds and as a result went down with the same thing about 4 days later.
July 24th, 2007 at 6:13 amThat's what I was saying. Bit of sarcasm.
July 24th, 2007 at 6:16 amyou talk about the waitng for surgery in Canada. Its true there are waits for non life threatening problems, but at least we get them. Don't fool yourselves into thinking that you don't have waits for surgery in the US. The wait may be a lifetime as you may have no insurance coverage or you wait until you get the job that does provide insurance coverage. Then hope that the HMO doesn't deny treatment as its a pre-existing condition
July 24th, 2007 at 11:01 pm