Brooks Admits He Picked Facts ‘Out Of The Air’ To Defend Bush’s Iraq Policy
Brooks Admits He Picked Facts ‘Out Of The Air’ To Defend Bush’s Iraq Policy
Yesterday, Media Matters observed that on this week’s Meet the Press, New York Times columnist David Brooks admitted to using a made-up statistic in order to argue against withdrawal from Iraq.
Specifically, Brooks rehashed the right-wing talking point that withdrawal in Iraq would certainly lead to “genocide,” alleging that 10,000 Iraqis a month would die after redeployment. But Washington Post reporter Bob Woodward quickly forced Brooks’ to admit his statistics were baseless:
BOB WOODWARD: I mean, you cite numbers which you have pulled out of the air of 10,000 dying. I mean, that’s–that–where does that come from? [...]
DAVID BROOKS: So I just picked that 10,000 out of the air.
Watch it:
As Woodward noted, what happens after the U.S. withdraws is deeply speculative. Time Magazine notes today, “just how many Iraqis would die if the U.S. withdrew is anyone’s guess” and advocates a phased withdrawal as the best option. “Some experts believe Iraqis would, after a brief explosion of violence, regain control of their country.”
In fact, numerous military and diplomatic analysts argue that withdrawing U.S. forces from Iraq could “prevent Iraq’s multiple sectarian conflicts from spreading beyond its borders and gives Iraq and its neighbors the right incentive to help resolve Iraq’s internal conflicts.”
Brooks has long been a ready advocate of Bush’s foreign policy failures. In January, he defended Bush’s rosy whitewashing of Iraq war history as “accurate.” Last week, he walked away from a meeting with the President entranced by Bush’s “unconquerable faith in the rightness of his Big Idea.”
While Brooks recently complained that he was “so confused” about what to do in Iraq, we can be sure that he will conjure up fallacies to defend the President.
Transcript:
MR. BROOKS: On the other hand, if we leave…MR. WOODWARD: Glide plane.
MR. BROOKS: Well, if we leave, we could see 250,000 Iraqis die. You had the John Burns’ quotation earlier in the program. So are we willing to prevent 10,000 Iraqi deaths a month at the cost of 125 Americans? That’s a tough moral issue, but it’s also a tough national interest issue because we don’t know what the consequences of getting out are. And the frustration of watching the debate in Washington, very few people are willing to, to grapple with those two facts, that there’s–that the surge will not work in the short-term, but getting out will be cataclysmic. And you see politicians on both sides evading one of those two facts. But you’ve got to grapple with them both.
[...]
MR. WOODWARD: And the problem, though, is, we don’t know. People can say, “Oh, it’s going to be a disaster.”
MR. BROOKS: Uh-huh.
MR. WOODWARD: I mean, you cite numbers which you have pulled out of the air of 10,000 dying. I mean, that’s–that–where does that come from?
MR. BROOKS: Well, A, it comes from John Burns. Second, it comes from the national intelligence…
MR. WOODWARD: Well, no, he doesn’t say 10,000.
MR. BROOKS: Well, no, no, but it talks about genocide.
MR. WOODWARD: Yeah.
MR. BROOKS: So I just picked that 10,000 out of the air.
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July 23rd, 2007 at 2:24 pmBrooks Admits He Picked Facts ‘Out Of The Air’ To Defend Bush’s Iraq Policy
“Out of the Air”???
That’s a polite way to describe his a….
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:26 pmNeocons manufacture their own reality. It must be devastating to them to realize that very few people will continue to legitimize their warped world view by accepting it without question.
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:27 pmI will pick facts out of the air to defend those that do the same. No irony, right? They said that was dead after 9/11.
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:28 pmOutstanding!!!!
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:30 pmOnce again, the end justifies the means.
I saw this. After I got done yelling at the television, I wondered if anyone else would pick up on it…
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:31 pmIt must be devastating to them to realize that very few people will continue to legitimize their warped world view by accepting it without question.
Comment by TripMaster Monkey — July 23, 2007 @ 2:27 pm
You must be refering to the 26, er.. 23, ah… make that 19%ers, TMM.
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:31 pm#3– I don’t think they create their own reality. I just believe they are so DENSE that reality is warped by their very presence. It’s in Einstein’s theory somewhere.
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:31 pmWhat will happen after we withdraw is at best highly speculative.
The Right is certain that a large scale bloodbath will occur.
That’s certainly possible. But given their track record in predictions dealing with Iraq so far, I wouldn’t put too much stock in anything they say.
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:32 pmMoot point.. it isnt any of the rapists business what the woman decides to do with herself after the rape is over… if she wants to kill herself her neighbors and friends may try to help her but the rapists has no say in it… Since America has the most powerful nuclear arsenal on earth we will not be punished for Iraq like a rapist would, but we still have no moral place in Iraq right now… if the world community decides to help Iraq and Iraq were to ask America to join in that help…that is a different matter all together… but the rapist isnt giving Iraq that choice now are they? So the original crime of forcing onces self on another continues… When we will make Bushies stop?
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:32 pm“Impeach”
What for?
Then what?
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:33 pmI don’t think they create their own reality. I just believe they are so DENSE that reality is warped by their very presence. It’s in Einstein’s theory somewhere.
Comment by menehune — July 23, 2007 @ 2:31 pm
Intriguing take on a complex scientific question. Thank you.
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:33 pmImpeachment?…what a joke…This admisistration is not going anywhere any time soon and when it does it will been when it wants.
Dick, Scooter, Karl and myself cut this little jewel the other day over a few beers while counting our money…….here it is…….just for you people……….
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Ypa75axdK6o
HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAAA
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:35 pm“…we can be sure that he (Brooks) will conjure up fallacies to defend the President.” – - I think that should be, phallic-cies.
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:36 pmThere should be a penalty for pulling numbers out of the air: you don’t go on the air anymore. Reduce air pollution. Ban Brooks.
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:37 pmI think Brooks’ brain is slowly crumbling under the weight of constantly churning out BS that he probably doesn’t really believe in. He should just say, look, ok, I give in, Ive been full of crap because that is how I made my money, as a full of crap conservative commentator.
I mean, at this point, it’s really best to just quit, because he isnt fooling anyone anymore, and that includes himself.
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:38 pmPerhaps he picked them out of his ass, but was too embarassed to say that on the air.
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:39 pmWe do, however know how many Iraqis are dying each month while we’re there in the midst of the civil war.
Maybe the Saudis, Syrians, Egyptians and Iranians could do a little better at keeping the peace…
I wonder when the last time was that a Repugnican or a Repugnican apologist ever uttered a truthful statement?
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:40 pmIt is good to see the smug condescension slowly be replaced by hesitant admissions when these neocons shills are challenged on their crap, the few times it does happen.
But when they’re in the echo chamber, their arrogance builds back up and they get convinced anew how right their cause is.
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:42 pmBush’s Big Idea…
Why is that always with caps? …like we’re refering to something great? The phrase refers to basically changing the world view of the entire middle east, and somehow, incidentally, still taking their oil without them caring.
It would look a lot less inspiring if it was “Bush’s big idea.” Because maybe then, people would take a closer look and realize that there is no real idea there – only a fantasy with no implementation details. And in the first step of a supposed implementation, they failed at conquering a country that we had already conquered with sanctions, weapons inspectors, and no-fly zones.
Without the caps it might also be a little easier to remember that Bush was a coke-head alcoholic, and he has had other ideas in the past. Unfortunately, his big ideas have screwing up everything he’s touched in the private sector. Why should the public sector be any different? Well, turns out that it’s not any different.
Seriously, Bush’s Big Idea. How freaking stupid. You’re not a revolutionary with grand new concepts that we common folk just don’t understand yet. You’re a f**king moron who has destroyed much of what real revolutionaries hold sacred.
Oh, and I have a Big Idea, too. It’s that Bush does some reading and becomes a smart guy and reverses all his policies. Well, at least I know my Big Idea is just a pipe dream…
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:43 pmAll of these pundits do such a thorough job of painting themselves into a corner supporting the neocons and the Bush administration that none can extricate themselves. Part of it, of course, is that they all have enormously bloated egos and are utterly incapable of admitting error, but they have gone on so long rooting for the Iraq debacle that they have run out of room to extricate themselves.
Brooks made a stab at it by whining about being “confused” but he’s right back on the same track again and he is NEVER going to concede that the occupation is a fiasco and that it has to change, much less that he has been wrong consistently from the very beginning.
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:45 pmI mean, at this point, it’s really best to just quit, because he isnt fooling anyone anymore, and that includes himself.
Comment by Geoff — July 23, 2007 @ 2:38 pm
==Wrong! He can fool enough of the people enough of the time to keep the agenda flowing in the RIGHT direction. Besides that he make as much in a week as you do in….who knows how long.
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:46 pmWell at least he admits it. Unlike this website where liberals make stuff up all the time and then start to think it is real.
ROTFL
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:47 pmMost everyone in the msm have picked facts out of the air to defend bush. The American people are on to the media in this country, and becoming more aware everyday. I don’t know where this country would be if it were not for the blogosphere.
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:47 pmThrasymachos sez:
14 good reasons.
Then, it’s off to this inviting vacation spot.
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:47 pmWell, even a broken clock is right twice a day…
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:48 pm———-
He’s pulling facts “out of the air” the same way Feminists in the USA pull facts “out of the air”.
———-
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:49 pmBrooks needs a column in TIME so he can rebut those silly facts.
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:50 pmThe one fact Brooks and the neocons don’t need to make up is the fact that America is tired of US soldiers dying in Iraq. They’re tired of a failed president escalating a failed policy.
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:50 pmDavid Brooks, neo-conartist LSOS. Lying sack of shit.
All of these Republican rump-wipers are pathetic.
-GSD
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:52 pmYeah that’s right, I pulled it out of the air. It’s the same place a pull all my other talking points from too….well the air, and Drudge Report.
But please, continue to listen to me and treat me with respect because after all, I write for the New York Times AND I’m on TV, while this is just a silly political blog site run by angry left wingers.
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:52 pmHe’s pulling facts “out of the air†the same way Feminists in the USA pull facts “out of the airâ€.
Comment by bilbo
Er… specifics, please???
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:53 pmis this surprising at all?
Politicians lying, selectively telling the truth, using propaganda?
It’s the nature of the beast and has been that way since the beginning of politics. We need to continually have a distrust of what these people tell us…..
Some reading:
“Politicians Lie? Say it Ain’t So!”
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:53 pmhttp://www.populistamerica.com/politicians_lie___say_it_ain_t_so
These guys can’t possible still believe their own BS. They are the unscrupulous brokers in the boiler room charged with running a massive “pump-and-dump” on the American people. They are starting to worry that even they won’t be able to keep the pyramid up much longer.
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:53 pmWell, people say, er, its common knowledge, I mean, some people say, or, I have heard that, uh…well, just take my word for it. This is a number, it exists, and I said it on the air, so it must be true.
Neocons repel truth like oil repels water.
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:53 pmEr… specifics, please???
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity
Weren’t you the one telling people to ignore the trolls?
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:54 pmHe’s pulling facts “out of the air†the same way Feminists in the USA pull facts “out of the airâ€.
———-
Comment by bilbo — July 23, 2007 @ 2:49 pm
Oh, for Christ’s sake! Could we get some DECENT trolls in here please???
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:55 pmIf you run into this assclown on the street, make sure he’s washed his hands before you shake one, just sayin…
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:55 pmAgain, MTP is a non starter. Tim Russert is as loyal to the White House as Sean Hannity. That says it all. David Brooks is an unelected stooge. Just don’t watch it.
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:56 pmCould it be that this Mr. Brooks is actually Mel’s brother, and he’s just shitting us???
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:57 pmWe all know where neocons get their facts from. That’s why their vision of the world is so dark.
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:59 pmBrooks = Bushie, enough said.
July 23rd, 2007 at 2:59 pmHey, the left is always calling this war another Vietnam so let’s look at what happened when we pulled out of there, OK?
Hmmm, 10,000 sounds kind of low now doesn’t it?
I think Brooks was being conservative with his estimate.
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:00 pmI have come to the conclusion that over the past 6 years of this administration Larry King has done a better job at meeting my expectations than MTP. Political expediency and job security do not matter to Mr. King , unlike the other elitist rectal inspectors like Mr. Brooks, Judith Miller and WackJob Tweety. Too bad Jim Lehrer still has Mr. Brooks on, maybe it’s out of pity….
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:03 pmRe: # 42 Cynicon Implant:
my remark still stands — “Can we get some DECENT trolls in here?”
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:05 pmHere is a little something for the nutters to chew on. Daryll where are you????/
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/324749_domestic24.html
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:06 pmHey, the left is always calling this war another Vietnam so let’s look at what happened when we pulled out of there, OK?
Comment by Cynicon Implant
The dire predictions of a generation did not come to fruition. Since Thailand and other South East Asian nations did not fall to systematic Vietnamese aggression, the Domino Theory, so widely trumpeted, was said to have been an illusion. Vietnam, without the presence of the United States, showed itself to be of little economic or strategic value to anyone.
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:11 pmHey, the left is always calling this war another Vietnam so let’s look at what happened when we pulled out of there, OK?
Hmmm, 10,000 sounds kind of low now doesn’t it?
I think Brooks was being conservative with his estimate.
Comment by Cynicon Implant
So, what did happen in Vietnam after we left, troll? You have some numbers to present that are equivalent to 10,000/month? Or 10,000/year? Or 10,000/decade?
You might be “thinking” of Cambodia, which came apart under the Khmer Rouge and led to maybe 1.5 million deaths as a direct result of Nixon’s bombing of the country during the Vietnam War. In fact, order was returned in Cambodia by (drum roll, please) the Communist Republic of Vietnam.
If you learned even a tiny bit of history, you wouldn’t make such incredibly stupid comments.
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:14 pmHa yeah he was pushing the “no underlying crime” line, too. Still is I bet.
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:15 pmI would have said he picked those numbers out of his a$$ but we all know that’s were the republicans pulled all their facts anyways right?
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:17 pmwell notice the more obvious contradiction: he said that nobody can foresee the consequences of a withdrawal, and then later said that the consequences would be cataclysmic.
which is it, brooks?
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:19 pmThe dire predictions of a generation did not come to fruition. Since Thailand and other South East Asian nations did not fall to systematic Vietnamese aggression, the Domino Theory, so widely trumpeted, was said to have been an illusion. Vietnam, without the presence of the United States, showed itself to be of little economic or strategic value to anyone.
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity
ROS, from the same wikipedia piece on the aftermath of US withdrawal from Vietnam: “Phnom Penh, the capital of Cambodia, fell to the Khmer Rouge on April 17, 1975. The last official American military action in South East Asia occurred on 15 May 1975. Forty-one U.S. military personnel were killed when the Khmer Rouge seized a U.S. merchant ship, the SS Mayagüez. The episode became known as the Mayagüez incident.
The Pathet Lao overthrew the royalist government of Laos in December, 1975. They established the Lao People’s Democratic Republic.[96]
Hundreds of thousands of South Vietnamese officials, particularly ARVN officers, were imprisoned in reeducation camps after the Communist takeover.[citation needed] Tens of thousands died and many fled the country after being released. Up to two million civilians left the country, and as many as half of these boat people perished at sea.
As many as two million died during the Khmer Rouge genocide.”
So, two million died in the Khmer Rouge genocide and then maybe a million boat people after we pulled out of Vietnam.
But estimating that 10,000 might die if we pull out of Iraq is crazy? Sorry, not buying it.
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:26 pmUnfortunately, Think Progress seems to advocate Time magazines’s proposal of a phased withdrawal as the best way of dealing with U.S. involvement in Iraq, ignoring the fact that a phased withdrawal will still increase the chances that more Americans will return to this country in flag draped coffins and even more returning to this country broken, maimed and crippled, both physically and psychologically, for absolutely no justifiable reason whatsoever. If Think Progress admits that the U.S presence in Iraq is making things worse in that country, then it makes no sense at all for the U.S. military to remain in Iraq or, to use Murtha’s term, “over the horizon”, which would still make the Iraqis resent, justifiably, that the U.S. could, at a moment’s notice, return to their country to inflict more mayhem on its citizens. Support the troops by bringing them home safely-now.
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:27 pmQUICK! don’t let this guy go- he can either be Senior Editor of the Weekly Standard, of go places working for FoKKKs “news”.
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:27 pmI hear the Washington Times is hiring, too.
No, no, no, Brooks didn’t pull the facts out of his own ass. That’s just wrong.
They were extracted from Bush’s colon and implanted directly into Brook’s noggin. It is yet another successful rectal-cranial transplant that the President’s medical team has perfected over the last 6 years with members of the mainstream media.
William Kristol has had the procedure done so many times that the doctors are privately worried Kristol Meth has become addicted to the surgery, much as some unbalanced individuals become addicted to plastic surgery.
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:31 pmThis should be no surprise. This is standard for neocons in a debate. They just invent statistics, facts, events, etc, and hope no one calls them on it.
They’ve already made up their tiny minds, and they’ll be damned if they’re going to let little things like the facts sway them.
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:31 pmSo, what did happen in Vietnam after we left, troll? You have some numbers to present that are equivalent to 10,000/month? Or 10,000/year? Or 10,000/decade?
Comment by gummitch
Hey Gumby, this is from Wikipedia on the aftermath of US withdrawal from Vietnam: “Hundreds of thousands of South Vietnamese officials, particularly ARVN officers, were imprisoned in reeducation camps after the Communist takeover. Tens of thousands died and many fled the country after being released. Up to two million civilians left the country, and as many as half of these boat people perished at sea.”
Oh well, what’s a million or so dead South Vietnamese civilians — at least the left in this country got their way, and that’s what is really important!
You might want to buff up on your history, moron.
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:32 pmBut estimating that 10,000 might die if we pull out of Iraq is crazy? Sorry, not buying it.
Comment by Cynicon Implant
He said 10,000/month. Which is hardly the same thing.
Nearly two million Iraqis have already fled the country, so you can scratch off the parallel to the “boat people.”
The point you consistently ignore is that the dire predictions about what would happen IN VIETNAM when the US withdrew simply did not happen.
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:34 pmYou might want to buff up on your history, moron.
Comment by Cynicon Implant — July 23, 2007 @ 3:32 pm
You might not want to use Wikipedia as a source for facts, dingelberry.
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:34 pm“out of thin air” – I’d suggest that these facts were picked out of “foul air” like his own flatulence! Of course, they had to be “invented” because the facts simply don’t exist….duh! How moronic these neonuts are beginning to look to the people now.
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:35 pmHi Zoo! Dingelberries and flatulence…looks like we’re both viewing him from his best side! Either that or great minds think alike?
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:36 pmBut estimating that 10,000 might die if we pull out of Iraq is crazy? Sorry, not buying it.
Comment by Cynicon Implant — July 23, 2007 @ 3:26 pm
Read the article, friend. And not selectively. Brooks suggested 10,000 a month. Not 10,000 total. And by dishonestly conflating Vietnam and Cambodia, you sought to give yourself more arguing room.
The point of the article is this: Brooks was forced to admit that he pulled the figure “out of the air”.
And given the Right’s track record of predictions regarding Iraq, there’s no reason to trust that Brooks has any better idea of this than Cheney had of the insurgents “last throes”.
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:36 pmtwo old hacks that no longer matter except to themselves.
why do we waste our time so?
Are there any real reporters like Michael Ware that report, then reluctantly comment only when asked?
how many? count them on several fingers I think. that is our problem
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:39 pmActually….out of the air? Nah, I don’t think Brooks pulled that number out of the air. He pulled it out of a much darker and smellier place, if you catch my drift.
But the idea is lie, lie, lie, pull numbers out of your @$$, lie some more, push it out everywhere, let people like Cynicon Implant, Mr. P, Jake, CT, et al get their hands on it, lie some more and spread the lies far and wide, then when someone questions you, admit you pulled so-called facts and figures out your butt. By the time you admit it, the damage’s already done. News doing its job blaring Brooks retraction on National TV and Newspaper? Heck no.
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:40 pmWhatever — 10,000 a month, 5,000 a month — I think his point is that Iraqi casualties will be higher if we pull out. Not a real stretch. If you all think we should pull out anyway (hey, they’re not our people, right?) — then make sure you have plenty of soap around to wash the blood off your hands.
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:42 pmI got a great deal on soap.
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:44 pmHi Zoo! Dingelberries and flatulence…looks like we’re both viewing him from his best side! Either that or great minds think alike?
Comment by veritas — July 23, 2007 @ 3:36 pm
Hi veritas,
Just checking in now and then, and noticed yet another idiot using the Wiki for facts, rather than information only. Yikes, they are stoopit!
Great minds? I consider that a fine compliment. :)
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:45 pmI predict that if Iraq were spelled backward it would be qarI.
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:45 pmThere, I beat the neocons predictions for the last five years. I got one right.
Whatever — 10,000 a month, 5,000 a month — I think his point is that Iraqi casualties will be higher if we pull out. Not a real stretch. If you all think we should pull out anyway (hey, they’re not our people, right?) — then make sure you have plenty of soap around to wash the blood off your hands.
Comment by Cynicon Implant
We tipped them over into civil war, so we already have blood on our hands. They will stop killing each other when they wear themselves out, which will be never as long as both sides have us to kill.
Please don’t pretend like you care about the Iraqi people. If you did, you would never have supported this war.
Send a bar of extra-strength soap to your King.
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:48 pmI kind of like that liquid soap.
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:50 pmWhatever — 10,000 a month, 5,000 a month — I think his point is that Iraqi casualties will be higher if we pull out.
Comment by Cynicon Implant — July 23, 2007 @ 3:42 pm
That may be the point to you, who are so ready to forgive neocon “overreaching”.
But the point that TP meant to emphasize was that a (conventionally) respected pundit created a statistic “out of the air” to support his argument and then was forced, when called on it, to admit his fabrication.
Happens all too rarely — the being called on it, I mean. Neocon pundits create evidence out of the air to advance their arguments, all the time.
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:50 pmStay or go, there is and will be a lot of blood on everyone’s hands.
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:51 pmIncluding cheerleaders Kristol, and Brooks, who think George is the greatest President ever!
We had no business invading, and we are responsible for the aftermath. Just because we are leaving, does not mean that a peaceful resolution will not be found once the ‘invaders’ have gone. Yet, everyone assumes that we are just going to cut and run, but what about joining with neighboring Arab countries to help with the aftermath? They could combine with international efforts to bring in diplomatic solutions. We do not want to do this because we do not want to yield control of the oil.
Whatever — 10,000 a month, 5,000 a month — I think his point is that Iraqi casualties will be higher if we pull out. Not a real stretch. If you all think we should pull out anyway (hey, they’re not our people, right?) — then make sure you have plenty of soap around to wash the blood off your hands.
Comment by Cynicon Implant
Nearly two million have already fled the country and thousands more die every month because we continue the occupation. The majority of Iraqis want us out. What part of that do you not understand?
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:52 pm“We all know where neocons get their facts from. That’s why their vision of the world is so dark.”
Comment by Perry Logan — July 23, 2007 @ 2:59 pm
Maybe instead of calling neocon “facts” “facts”, we should call them “polyps.”
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:53 pmCynicon? Let me ask you something. WHO is doing the killings of Iraqi? Other Iraqi! The blood isn’t on my hands or any other person’s hands who are against this occupation. Iraq must solve Iraq’s problems. It’s one of the most fundamental positions of your political persuasion, and I, as a moderate Independent leaning towards social libertarianism and moderate fiscal policy, agree with that position.
If anyone has blood on their hands, it is your side of the Left-Right divide. Who twisted facts to make a case for going to war with Saddam Hussein? Who suppressed counter-arguments for that case? Who shut down people who tried to bring those arguments out? Who forever damaged a CIA agent’s ability to do her line of work, regardless of whether or not she was undercover at the time, because her husband dared to try to say the position your people were taking was based on half-truths, distortions, and outright lies? Your people did.
There’s a saying about throwing good money after bad. The Iraqi have been given a blessing in the form of the removal of their dictator, even though it was done on false pretenses. It’s over, it’s done with. Those 12 billion USD a month thrown into Iraq could be better used for many things.
1) Securing our borders with the 300,000+ soldiers and contractors present in Iraq, to keep out both the terrorists and the people breaking the law to get here.
2) Inspecting those cargo containers your President argues so forcefully against inspecting.
3) Improving our schools so that we may compete with Russia, China, Iran, India, and the rest of the world in the 21st Century, so we may keep our position as leader of the Industrialized World
4) For humanitarian aid and poverty reduction in that area that fosters Terrorism. A million dollars in the form of food, aid dollars, and consultation will do much more to fix Terrorism than a million dollars in the form of a bomb. And the million dollars of food, aid, and consultation will last a whole lot longer than that million dollar bomb would, too.
Your arguments of stay the course are as compelling as your masters arguments. Check the Nation’s view on the war. They aren’t compelling at all.
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:54 pmWhatever — 10,000 a month, 5,000 a month — I think his point is that Iraqi casualties will be higher if we pull out. Not a real stretch. If you all think we should pull out anyway (hey, they’re not our people, right?) — then make sure you have plenty of soap around to wash the blood off your hands.
Comment by Cynicon Implant — July 23, 2007 @ 3:42 pm
A bank robber robs a bank and takes hostages. The police show up, and demand the hostages release. The bank robber says no and demands a helicopter to escape with. As each hour passes, the robber shoots a hostage.
The police see the man is going to keep shooting hostages every hour unless they let him escape, which they cannot do, so they decide to take him out.
The best scenario they can come up with is to trick him into thinking he’s getting a helicopter, then rush him when he’s walking to the pad. In the process of executing this plan, the man kills a dozen hostages by throwing a grenade.
Did the police kill the hostages? Of course not. The blood is on the bank robbers hands, for ALL the hostages. The police are only human, and did the best job they could in the situtation. Did they make mistakes? Maybe. Maybe not. But either way the bloods on the man who STARTED it, by robbing the bank in the first place.
Just like no matter what happens at this point, the blood will be on the hands of those who started the war, and those who helped them, and help them to this day. Like you.
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:54 pmIt may be unknown at this point how many Iraqis will die when US troops re-deploy, but surely some accurate estimate can be made of how many US troops will NOT be dying!
July 23rd, 2007 at 3:55 pmNearly two million have already fled the country and thousands more die every month because we continue the occupation. The majority of Iraqis want us out. What part of that do you not understand?
Comment by gummitch
gumby, I think I know what you’ll say but answer this question for me:
If we leave and the average number of deaths per month goes up dramatically, is it still better to have left?
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:00 pmAgreed Laurie. There’s no way to be sure. It’s possible they’ll unite as a country again, undersome leader who boasts of how they as a people, “drove off the foreign invaders”. Or they may have a civil war, between the Sunni’s and the Shia until one side prevails.
Either way, there are a few facts that are consistent.
A. They wouldn’t be in the mess if Bush hadn’t lied and started the war.
B. Even if the killing does increase, chances are it will be shortlived, as one side prevails (hint: the side who controls the 250,000 man army that we stood up) and takes over as the leading faction.
C. Either way, we sure as hell aren’t dumb enough to listen to the predictions of idiots like this Cynicon Implant clown, who got every prediction wrong about what would happen if we did go in.
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:03 pmIf we leave and the average number of deaths per month goes up dramatically, is it still better to have left?
Comment by Cynicon Implant — July 23, 2007 @ 4:00 pm
If we stay, and the situation in Darfur continues or worsens, and we continue to do nothing, and a hurricane devastates a part of the United States, and people die because our troops and equipment were in Iraq, is it still better if we stay?
Look ma! I can set up a strawman argument too.
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:04 pmNice effort, Bartlebee, but I’m pretty sure that CI doesn’t read that much text at one time unless it’s instructions on how to inflate his “new friend”.
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:04 pmFool me once, shame on you.
Fool me twice….,….
:\
uh….fool me twice…… can’t git fooled agynn.
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:05 pmIf we leave and the average number of deaths per month goes up dramatically, is it still better to have left?
Comment by Cynicon Implant
If we’re essentially accomplishing nothing good by staying and actually aggravating the situation by staying, the obvious answer is “yes.”
If the Bush administration had defined any clear goals and had not entirely screwed the pooch with this occupation, the answer might be different.
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:07 pmThe reason Bush can’t leave, besides his innate inability to change course or admit a mistake, is that to leave would open Iraq to Shia, and thus, Iranian control. This would certainly piss off the Saudis, who are Sunnis (the majority of the insurgency, BTW) and would create the dreaded “Shia Crescent” across the Middle East.
I agree with Bartlebee that the slaughter which will likely take place (and is taking place as we type) will probably be short-lived as the power vaccuum is filled by the stronger faction. The dream of real democracy in Iraq will likely die a horrible death. But there’s no way that any government will have any legitimacy as long as we are there. I suppose it would be possible, if good people with the interests of Iraq –and Iraqis — were to assume positions of power, but that would conflict with the noecon agenda.
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:12 pmAgain, my point is that Cynicon Implant wants us to throw good lives and money after bad. That’s horrible business sense and it is equally horrible strategic sense. But CI and the people he supports (they thank him for his toady blind following, his kind of people are getting harder and harder to find) don’t care about strategic or business sense. Their reality is whatever they make it.
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:13 pmExactly Spit. As long as we’re they’re, the killing will be never ending.
All we are doing is perpetuating hell.
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:14 pmU.S. officials have finally admitted what has long been obvious: that Bush’s “global war on terror” has been
an expensive failure, costing hundreds of billions of dollars and claiming possibly hundreds of thousands of lives,
but making the world no safer and quite likely more dangerous.
So, here are numbers that were not pulled out of the air.
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:14 pmAnd facts. From our own government’s NIE.
The only excuse left to the neo cons was the terrorism angle, having found all other reasons for the invasion false (WMD, connections to al Qaeda, mushroom clouds, greet us with flowers, free them from an evil dictator). Well, it should be mission accomplished, so why are we staying? If we are truthfully fighting a ‘war on terror’ then why is al Qaeda re-grouping, even, allegedly, in Iraq. Right under our nose.
Because we never intended to leave. Something about oil, I think.
The thing to remember is that some groups want the sectarian conflict to spread beyond Iraq’s borders. Then this whole thing becomes one long invasion.
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:17 pmJust like no matter what happens at this point, the blood will be on the hands of those who started the war, and those who helped them, and help them to this day. Like you.
Comment by BARTLEBEE — July 23, 2007 @ 3:54 pm
BRILLIANT rebuttal, BARTLEBEE, to Cynicon Implant’s lame attempt to move blame from where it rightfully belongs: on the bloody hands of the current corrupt, criminal pesident, his president-in-charge-of-Vice, SiCKO DiCKO, and the rest of the warmongering NeoCons, whose butts Cynicon and the rest of the mindless trolls regulary kiss!
THE SCORE:
BARTLEBEE: 610,000,000,000*
Cynicon: ZERO
* = to the number of dollars spent, so far, on bloody-handed Cynicon’s “war on terror.”
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:17 pmEven though I disagree with him, at least gummitch answered the question.
funky p chickened out by using the “strawman” dodge. It’s not a strawman, it’s a legit question. What’s the “p” for — poulet?
gummitch, I kind of agree with your second point on Bush screwing up the execution of this occupation.
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:20 pmWho cares what you “agree” with?
When we want the opinion of a know nothing moron, we’ll call Bush.
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:23 pmOr your dad.
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:24 pmBack to the topic:
The performance of David Brooks gets more and more pitiful. No WONDER he was named “Media Putz of the Week” for July 12, 2007! http://mediaputz.com/07/07/putz0712.html
The way the poor PUTZ is performing, he should soon be installed in the Media Putz Hall of Fame (hopefully installed on the wall with strong screws!).
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:24 pmJust like no matter what happens at this point, the blood will be on the hands of those who started the war, and those who helped them, and help them to this day. Like you.
Comment by BARTLEBEE
BRILLIANT rebuttal, BARTLEBEE
Comment by hterrya
Brilliant, except that we didn’t start this war.
Read your own post, Bartlebee:
“Did the police kill the hostages? Of course not. The blood is on the bank robbers hands, for ALL the hostages. The police are only human, and did the best job they could in the situtation. Did they make mistakes? Maybe. Maybe not. But either way the bloods on the man who STARTED it, by robbing the bank in the first place.”
Bartlebee, we are the police! The insurgents/terrorists are the bank robbers!
Thanks for making my point. You did it very well.
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:28 pmWho cares what you “agree†with?
When we want the opinion of a know nothing moron, we’ll call Bush.
Comment by BARTLEBEE — July 23, 2007 @ 4:23 pm
Or your dad.
Comment by BARTLEBEE
My dad died last year. But if you happen to get through to him, tell him I say hi.
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:30 pmI didn’t make your point you idiot, you just don’t know how to read.
You are not the police in that analogy, although I’m sure an inbred like you, thinks you are. The liberals, are the police.
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:35 pmHopefully you’ll get a chance to talk to your dad before I do. But if I do happen to hook up with him first, I’ll ask him which family member he seduced to sire you.
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:37 pmFan of the Man has done his part by copying and pasting his copy points IN BOLD on every topic on the board today. Have you done your part and followed his directions?
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:38 pmHopefully you’ll get a chance to talk to your dad before I do. But if I do happen to hook up with him first, I’ll ask him which family member he seduced to sire you.
Comment by BARTLEBEE
Classic — lose the argument, start the insults and name-calling. That’s the way to keep the discussion on high level, Bartlebee.
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:41 pmDon’t you have to resign or something when you make facts up? Well, I know Bush or Cheney haven’t, but didn’t newspaper journalists have to? Or was that only when they embarrassed their publishers by winning Pulitzer Prizes with the fake statistics?
The New York Times: “Fitting the News to Print”.
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:44 pmClassic- lose the argument, then claim you won and cry like you’re the victim.
Puss.
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:44 pmCynicon Implant keeps trying to argue with us endlessly, like the endless occupation of a country in the midst of a bloody civil war that he mindlessly warmongers for, arguing on things that, like Brooks’ made-up figures, are only matters of his speculation.
Cynicon Implant = David Brooks the Putz, twerp, and NeoCon sycophant.
Cynicon Implant, like Brooks, is irrelevant to our nation, and UNLIKE Media Putz Brooks, he is also irrelevant to this thread.
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:47 pmIt could only be 3k-5k deaths per month if we leave. Then again, 20k is a reality as well. If the Dems get the retreat they are looking for, lets hope its closer to 3,000 deaths per month instead of a much higher number.
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:48 pmSee little troll, once you come in and lie like a dockwhore, you lose whats called “all credibility”.
Your dads most likely upstairs screwing your sister right now, making another one of you.
I doubt very much if he’s dead.
:o
And I care even less.
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:48 pmWhat’s the “p†for — poulet?
Comment by Cynicon Implant — July 23, 2007 @ 4:20 pm
Classic — lose the argument, start the insults and name-calling. That’s the way to keep the discussion on high level, Bartlebee.
Comment by Cynicon Implant — July 23, 2007 @ 4:41 pm
It took just 21 minutes to defame yourself. That makes you a hypocrite.
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:53 pmThink hard little troll….. work those gears…..
Try some self righteous indignigation followed by dismissing me as beneath contempt for my callous indiferrence to your personal suffering.
Make it good.
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:55 pmRepubliCONs = LIARS
NeoCONs = LIARS
CONservatives = LIARS
Call it what you want, but all these FREAKS are LIARS who have a special place waiting for them in hell.
Meanwhile, i hope the ghost of every dead soldier haunts them in their dreams and in thier patehtic lives!
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:57 pmBrilliant, except that we didn’t start this war.
Comment by Cynicon Implant — July 23, 2007 @ 4:28 pm
How did we not start this war?
When did Iraq attack us?
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:57 pmIn his twisted dreams mikey.
In his twisted dreams.
July 23rd, 2007 at 4:59 pmTroll catches his own reflection, runs like hell.
July 23rd, 2007 at 5:06 pmTroll catches his own reflection, runs like hell.
Comment by funky p — July 23, 2007 @ 5:06 pm
I thought that vampires didn’t have reflections?
July 23rd, 2007 at 5:07 pmI thought that vampires didn’t have reflections?
Comment by Jane E. Schneider — July 23, 2007 @ 5:07 pm
You’re quite right. Maybe a zombie?
July 23rd, 2007 at 5:11 pmYou’re quite right. Maybe a zombie?
Comment by funky p — July 23, 2007 @ 5:11 pm
Works for me — they need to have brains (acerebralists!), so they must be zombies.
July 23rd, 2007 at 5:14 pmHere’s a number not pulled out of an orifice.
25%. Bush’s current approval rating as of this week:
71% of Americans Disapprove of the Way
George W. Bush is Handling His Job as President
A total of 71% of Americans say they disapprove of the way George W. Bush is handling his job as president according to the latest survey from the American Research Group.
Among all Americans, 25% approve of the way Bush is handling his job as president and 71% disapprove. When it comes to Bush’s handling of the economy, 23% approve and 73% disapprove.
Among Americans registered to vote, 27% approve of the way Bush is handling his job as president and 70% disapprove. When it comes to the way Bush is handling the economy, 23% of registered voters approve of the way Bush is handling the economy and 72% disapprove.
This is the highest level of disapproval and lowest level of approval for the Bush presidency recorded in monthly surveys by the American Research Group.
The results presented here are based on 1,100 completed telephone interviews conducted among a nationwide random sample of adults 18 years and older. The interviews were completed July 18 through 21, 2007. The theoretical margin of error for the total sample is plus or minus 2.6 percentage points, 95% of the time, on questions where opinion is evenly split.
Overall, 25% of Americans say that they approve of the way George W. Bush is handling his job as president, 71% disapprove, and 4% are undecided.
July 23rd, 2007 at 5:18 pmTo be fair to Brooks, he got the “facts” from the same place Bush got them.
Man, the White House has done ONE thing competently during Bush’s administration, and that is completely manipulating the media to believe anything they say. From claiming a Saddam-Al Qaeda link, to an Iraqi nuclear program, to mobile bio-weapon labs, to believing the Iraq War was making us safer from Al Qaeda, to the politically-motivated color-coded terror alerts, and now they claim US forces leaving Iraq is automatically bad, and the mainstream media lapdogs eat it up.
July 23rd, 2007 at 5:47 pmThis country and this war are in desperate need of radical changes. First and foremost is the need to pull our troops out of Iraq and stop the violence, poverty and terror that we are creating overseas as well as in our homes. Even now, President Bush would not admit defeat and the fact that this war is a disaster. The Bush administration has yet to recognize the Iraq war is a complete failure and mistake. There are more critical issues that affecting the lives of millions of americans and people world wide that our president is not taking actions against. Now the war has proven to be a failure and is causing more violence, terror and poverty in this world. According to the Borgen Project, it only takes $19 billion dollars annually to eradicate world hunger and poverty. However, our government has already spent more than $450 billion dollars over this fruitless war in Iraq. It is time for the Bush Administration to take a real interest in the lives of the American people as well as people who are in desperate needs around the world. Stop the lies and stop poverty now. Put away the arrogance and put the needs of the people before political gains.
July 23rd, 2007 at 6:29 pmThe Bush administration has yet to recognize the Iraq war is a complete failure and mistake.
Comment by Mstessyrue — July 23, 2007 @ 6:29 pm
I agree with you from our perspective the war is a disaster. The administration doesn’t see it that way because Iraq pumps millions of barrels of oil every single day from un-metered wells. I have yet to see any one in the media ask who pumps this oil, and who gets this oil, AND who gets paid for this oil. My best guess is the name Halliburton may pop up if anyone bothered to check. Under cover of chaos and destruction this looting continues unabated, unmonitored, and practically unnoticed.
July 23rd, 2007 at 6:44 pmPerhaps
July 23rd, 2007 at 7:46 pmDiogenes should be left to wander the aisles of the West Wing for the next 18 months. His search would be fruitless.
Brooks is nothing but Bill Kristol dressed in drag.
A left- flank neocon like Friedman that gets his talking point orders along with the rest
He is a disgrace and no longer a legitimate spokesman for authentic conservatives.
July 23rd, 2007 at 8:30 pmThe Hillary exit plan debate has sharp political subtleties
If Cheney and Rumsfeld had not, in what is called an act of depraved indifference, blocked plans and strategies by State, CIA and the Military to prepare for worst case scenarios before engaging in Iraq, America would today have a third less casualties.
When Hillary says where is the plan, which of course the Military has game-played for ten different scenarios, she is saying that America will not again tolerate political operatives to force our Military into incompetent alternatives.
Hillary is stating that America does not want a White House political opinion or worse yet a Bush/Cheney political plan. Congress and the troops deserve a set of plans, in hand now thank you very much, created by the best minds so that the withdrawal will neither be delayed nor botched to give political advantage to the creators of this mess.
Military planning will indicate how many deaths, how much cost and what time frame(s) their withdrawal plans indicate.
Knowing the Military’s best estimates makes the overall cost of withdrawal more of a factual matter and less open to Bush/Cheney/Rove fear mongering, propaganda and general political sloganeering.
– cognitorex –
July 23rd, 2007 at 8:38 pmdidn’t brooks just pull a jayson blair…or, something like it. well, if he did, here is my replacement for brooks… salim muwakil.
July 23rd, 2007 at 9:57 pmWell, it took you guys long enough, TP. I pointed this out on another thread yesterday morning.
July 23rd, 2007 at 11:20 pmPeople listen to David Brooks only because they confuse him with the far more coherent and reliable *Foster* Brooks.
Once they realize he is not the “Lovable Lush†but the “Deplorable Douche†his stolen 15 minutes will be over.
July 25th, 2007 at 4:33 am