80 percent:
By on Jul 26th, 2007 at 9:45 am
80 percent:
Number of Americans who believe the “Iraq war has hurt the United States’ standing the international community,” according to a new UPI-Zogby poll.
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TP headline is a bit misleading. To stave off the inevitable bleating from the trolls, here are the actual poll numbers:
July 26th, 2007 at 9:50 am
Yeah, it’s more like 76.5%, but still, the remarkable number is that an outright majority strongly believes that the war has damaged our standing.
July 26th, 2007 at 9:53 amObviously the Iraq war has hurt the US’ standings in the international community. There is no debate about this; this is common knowledge.
July 26th, 2007 at 9:54 amShowdown with superiors
Q: I understand that all the incidents – killing civilians at checkpoints, itchy fingers at the rally – weigh on you. What happened with your commanding officers? How did you deal with them?
A: There was an incident. It was right after the fall of Baghdad, when we went back down south. On the outskirts of Karbala, we had a morning meeting on the battle plan. I was not in a good mindset. All these things were going through my head – about what we were doing over there. About some of the things my troops were asking. I was holding it all inside. My lieutenant and I got into a conversation. The conversation was striking me wrong. And I lashed out. I looked at him and told him: “You know, I honestly feel that what we’re doing is wrong over here. We’re committing genocide.”
He asked me something and I said that with the killing of civilians and the depleted uranium we’re leaving over here, we’re not going to have to worry about terrorists. He didn’t like that. He got up and stormed off. And I knew right then and there that my career was over. I was talking to my commanding officer.
Q: What happened then?
A: After I talked to the top commander, I was kind of scurried away. I was basically put on house arrest. I didn’t talk to other troops. I didn’t want to hurt them. I didn’t want to jeopardize them.
I want to help people. I felt strongly about it. I had to say something. When I was sent back to stateside, I went in front of the sergeant major. He’s in charge of 3,500-plus Marines. “Sir,” I told him, “I don’t want your money. I don’t want your benefits. What you did was wrong.”
It was just a personal conviction with me. I’ve had an impeccable career. I chose to get out. And you know who I blame? I blame the president of the U.S. It’s not the grunt. I blame the president because he said they had weapons of mass destruction. It was a lie.
http://www.sacbee.com/content/opinion/story/9316830p-10241546c.html
July 26th, 2007 at 9:55 amFrancois sez:
You might want to tell the Republican respondents that…24.9 percent of them somewhat disagreed while 16.5 percent strongly disagreed.
Of course, these are the same people who think that the planet is 6000 years old, too…
July 26th, 2007 at 9:57 amOk 21.2% either disagree or strongly disagree. Who are these morons? What planet do they live on?
July 26th, 2007 at 10:00 amTripMaster & Ace: It’s great to see that your brains are firing so impeccably this morning! Great posts – both of you! I’m doing my usual cut, paste, and send to everyone I know thing….keep the info coming!
July 26th, 2007 at 10:01 amComment by bilbobaggins — July 26, 2007 @ 10:00 am
They live on Planet Bush.
July 26th, 2007 at 10:04 amthis piece appeared in my little red-town newspaper yesterday…
my only regret is that, at the end, charley stopped short of actually
naming the “reason”: control of oil…
The Republican War
by Charley Reese
It is now clear that the proper name for the war going on in Mesopotamia is the “Republican War.” Never before has a political party so decisively asserted ownership of a foreign war.
The Republicans refuse to share it with the Democrats, who, despite their many resolutions, have yet to call for a complete withdrawal of American forces. Democrats have not come close to proposing to cut off the war funding, which is the only way the war can be ended.
Yet Republicans act like jealous suitors and seem to want to keep the war as their very own. They have killed every single proposal to alter the strategy or the tactics. They even killed a bill that would have done nothing more than guarantee that American soldiers would get a rest period at home equal to the time spent in the war.
Killing that bill, which had nothing to do with withdrawal or timetables for withdrawal, clearly proves that Republicans do not support the troops. They support the war. There is a huge difference. Little Lindsey Graham, the Republican senator from South Carolina, has become so possessive of the war that he seems on the edge of hysteria.
[...]
http://www.antiwar.com/reese/?articleid=11324
(my emphasis)
July 26th, 2007 at 10:06 am…
166.
I really don’t know how much more damage this GOP can tolerate at this point? I realize that the Dems want to keep the GOP hypocrisy front and center to make it a slamdunk in 08; however, in listening to what Bruce Fein said on Bill Moyers as well as Keith Olberman’s special on impeachment last night, I believe that the “fix†for this constitutional crisis IS impeachment and it has to be accomplished if we want to turn back the clock on presidential abuse of power. Otherwise, succeeding administrations will pick up where this thug left off.
It really should be about Bush and Cheney at all (personally) but at this point, they’ve made themselves more hated than Cruella DeVille; however, it should be about reversing the constitutional “high crimes and misdemeanors†which we know they have committed. And, it needs to occur right now – not next month or next year.
After all, if Nixon had been forced to apologize instead of flouting his illegal activities back in the 70’s as well as receiving some sort of penalty for his actions, perhaps we would not be revisiting the same problem again now in this administration??
I guess it makes the case for the adage: If you don’t get the lesson the first time, you can bet your sweet ass that you’ll be given another opportunity to learn the same lesson – with the known caveat: The lesson increases in difficulty exponentially each time it visits you!!
Comment by veritas — July 26, 2007 @ 9:59 am
July 26th, 2007 at 10:06 amOf course it did but what does it matter?
July 26th, 2007 at 10:07 amDoes France, Iran, Russia, China or a host of other nation give a crap what others think? NO.
I wonder what the percentage would be if you asked non-Americans.
July 26th, 2007 at 10:08 am#6 It might be these folks….
July 26th, 2007 at 10:08 amhttp://www.huffingtonpost.com/max-blumenthal/rapture-ready-the-unauth_b_57826.html
How quickly everyone forgets that this began as a coalition. Now that we’re left holding the bag, the world conveniently acts like that never happened, and assumes an air of superiority.
July 26th, 2007 at 10:08 amThis IS Bush’s War – the Republican War and whether they choose to own it or not, the people know it’s theirs. It will wear on their persona like the plague, especially during upcoming elections. Those Repukes who will be seeking re-election in 08 don’t have an icecube’s chance in hell of remaining in Congress; likewise, Democrats if they fail the people in this constitutional challenge and the ending of the war. Just as Hillary said during the debate recently, if we begin to bring troops home NOW, we can only legitimately expect a batallion or two per month. How many units are over there right now? How long will this take to accomplish based on Hillary’s premise?
July 26th, 2007 at 10:10 amHillary wants to know the plan, as do ALL americans. She’s calling the president on his lies and lack of a plan – he’s never had one and still doesn’t have one. Just as he tanked all of his other business enterprises, BUSH’S WAR – AKA THE REPUBLICAN WAR – is a piece of criminal folly.
The sad fact is this: WMD’s was the “slamdunk premise” of these misinformed and twisted neocons because Papa Bush knew they were there – he’s the one who sold them to Saddam, let’s face it. He went to his idiot son and said: it’s a slamdunk because I personally know he’s got WMD’s. Little did Dumb and Dumber know that Saddam trumped them one last time and destroyed them. hah! Everything else from 911 to what’s going on now with this war on terror had WMD possession as it’s centerpiece. Failing that, their diabolical little scheme falls apart….which is precisely what we’re witnessing today.
Saddam had “one last laugh” on Pappy and W, didn’t he? And, through this, he is managing to tank this country as well.
July 26th, 2007 at 10:13 am...Hillary wants to know the plan, as do ALL americans. She’s calling the president on his lies and lack of a plan – he’s never had one and still doesn’t have one. Just as he tanked all of his other business enterprises, BUSH’S WAR – AKA THE REPUBLICAN WAR – is a piece of criminal folly.
Comment by veritas
Calm down… you’re becoming shrill.
July 26th, 2007 at 10:13 amDenmark pulls out Iraq troops early
Denmark has withdrawn most of the 430 troops it has stationed in Iraq earlier than expected, a report said Wednesday quoting the Danish military.
http://www.focus-fen.net/?id=n117912
July 26th, 2007 at 10:14 am20wordsorless: Just yesterday some general was discussing progress and he alluded to “coalition forces” – well, I thought I’d fall off my chair because I was laughing my ass off so much! Coalition forces?? Who’s he kidding?
July 26th, 2007 at 10:15 amIraq war has hurt the United States’ standing the international community,â€
massive Understatement
more like completeley destroyed your standing in the world
July 26th, 2007 at 10:15 amHere’s the question: Why do Republicans HATE democracy and this country so much? That’s the question which really needs to be asked by every american right now.
July 26th, 2007 at 10:16 amHi Toby! Yeparoo, we’re the lone ranger who’s left to take all the hits!
July 26th, 2007 at 10:16 amCalm down… you’re becoming shrill.
Comment by 20wordsorless
The troll plays the “shrill” card after he’s been cut off at the knees.
July 26th, 2007 at 10:19 am20wordsorless: Just yesterday some general was discussing progress and he alluded to “coalition forces†– well, I thought I’d fall off my chair because I was laughing my ass off so much! Coalition forces?? Who’s he kidding?
Comment by veritas
I’m surprised you didn’t lose control of your bowels, by the notion of progress. The amount of back-tracking and denial by liberals is going to be hillarious when we succeed in Iraq.
July 26th, 2007 at 10:20 amhttp://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/07/26/open-thread-542/#comments
Red Communism?? This is quite interesting.
July 26th, 2007 at 10:20 amhttp://www.smirkingchimp.com/thread/8966
And another! :)
July 26th, 2007 at 10:22 amIraq war has hurt the United States’ standing the international community,â€
Oh with 1 million Iraqis dead and 2 million in wheel chairs were sposed to think that george bushes war on an innocent nation that possed no threat whatsoever to the US based on an old vendetta was justified – I dont think so
the rest of the world will hold this against America for at least 50 years , this war and the truth WILL come out slowly , You will be considered worse than Nazis
July 26th, 2007 at 10:24 am20wordsorless sez:
Care to provide a clear and unambiguous definition of “success in Iraq”, dolt? Just so we’re all on the same page?
July 26th, 2007 at 10:28 amThe other part of the poll they forgot to publish is that 80% of the world is still willing to accept American money to clean up their own messes and American troops to stop their regional genocides.
July 26th, 2007 at 10:28 amThe troll plays the “shrill†card after he’s been cut off at the knees.
Comment by Zehava
Oh yes… this Zogby poll has ruined my life. Open your eyes, veritas’ comments are nothing more than high-strung rants. By the way, I love how you refer to me as the troll—like I’m not even human.
July 26th, 2007 at 10:29 amWe also need to ask veritas why he considers himself a “linguist”.
July 26th, 2007 at 10:30 amI’m surprised you didn’t lose control of your bowels, by the notion of progress. The amount of back-tracking and denial by liberals is going to be hillarious when we succeed in Iraq.
Comment by 20wordsorless — July 26, 2007
“bartender, i’ll take one of whatever he’s drinking.”
July 26th, 2007 at 10:31 amTo TripMaster Monkey, #1:
So there are 8.4% of our people who strongly disagree with the statement, “The Iraq war has damaged the standing of the United States in the international community.â€
Do they believe the Iraq war has enhanced our standing in the international community? Or do they just believe our actions in Iraq have had no effect on it at all? Or maybe they’re the ones who just play their video games, watch “The Bachelor”, and don’t pay attention? I know that if you put the entire White House staff, Halliburton, and all the boards of oil companies together, you don’t come up with 8.4%.
July 26th, 2007 at 10:32 amOf course, these are the same people who think that the planet is 6000 years old, too…
As compared to liberals who think that NAMBLA is a mainstream organization.
July 26th, 2007 at 10:32 amCare to provide a clear and unambiguous definition of “success in Iraqâ€, dolt? Just so we’re all on the same page?
Comment by TripMaster Monkey
Oh… You actually have a definition of success in Iraq? Something other than withdrawal?
July 26th, 2007 at 10:34 amHey 20wordsorless, I think you and I have much in common. These capitalist pigs with their silly ideas of freedom are truly pathetic. Do they not realize that the state only has the best interests of the collective at heart. Our leaders would never lie to the masses for they know that the strength of our glorious nation lies with the proletariat. Worry not comrade for they will soon be swept up by the peoples broom of justice and locked away for good in the gulags…er I mean black sites. You and I know the truth, that all the good corporate jobs will be reserved only for those with the strength of character to completely submit to the will of our glorious leader. The weak freedom lovers will see that strength of character and finally know that resistance is futile. Only then can we get on with the difficult job of transforming this nation into the mirror image of that most glorious former Soviet Union. Those to weak to stand and fight for the new Amerika will know how right we were as they beg us for scraps from our table. I always look forward to reading your posts for I see in you a …shall we say…kindred spirit…eh comrade.
Regards
July 26th, 2007 at 10:36 am“20wordsorless: Just yesterday some general was discussing progress and he alluded to “coalition forces†– well, I thought I’d fall off my chair because I was laughing my ass off so much! Coalition forces?? Who’s he kidding?”
Comment by veritas — July 26, 2007 @ 10:15 am
The pro-war forces, in an effort to perpetuate the myth that this is a true multi-national effort, like to use the word “coalition” as much as possible. They will point to the fact that this coalition consists of 22 different countries (including us). What they WON’T say is that the United States has 158,000 troops in Iraq, and the other 21 countries ADDED TOGETHER come to less than 11,000 troops total. And 5,500 of those are British. Latvia has 7 (that’s SEVEN) troops as part of this coalition.
July 26th, 2007 at 10:40 amthe History books in school will not be about WW11 anymore
It will be how the US Attacked Iraq , A country that had been disarmed by the UN following the gulf war , I million killed, 2 million in wheelchairs , women raped, thousands tortured with electric drills ,
and why
because George Bush and Cheney thought they could clear up an old vendetta against daddy bush and steal a countries Oil reserves
That makes America Pathetic the worlds biggest superpower pick on a disarmed country – - Frigging disgraceful – Bunch of Cowards -
July 26th, 2007 at 10:42 amOh… You actually have a definition of success in Iraq? Something other than withdrawal?
Comment by 20wordsorless — July 26, 2007 @ 10:34 am
He never mentioned success in Iraq – you did. Now, you fascist, neocon pig: Put up or shut up.
July 26th, 2007 at 10:44 am“You actually have a definition of success in Iraq? Something other than withdrawal?”
more than 1 million iraqis liked the current ’success’ and ‘progress’ enough to leave their own country and become refugees; or is that what you meant by ‘withdrawal’?
July 26th, 2007 at 10:44 am20wordsorless sez:
I’m waiting for yours, dolt. You’re the one yammering on about “succeeding” in Iraq. I want to know your definition of “success”, so I can keep you from moving the goalposts when it doesn’t happen.
Surely you must have a clear idea of what “success in Iraq” would entail…otherwise you would not have wasted our time bleating about it…right?
July 26th, 2007 at 10:45 amYou are being played for a fool.
All of this handwringing is a joke.
The plan from the outset was to CREATE A QUAGMIRE.
EVERYTHING that has happened has been by design.
They CREATED the insurgency.
They CREATED the civil war.
They CREATED the NO WIN / NO WAY OUT situation
O N
P U R P O S E
Stop assuming Bush wants to WIN and LEAVE.
NOTHING could be further from the TRUTH.
Watch his lips.
If they’re moving, he’s LYING.
LISTEN to every word, then flip it on its head to ascertain where the TRUTH LIES.
I’m not making this shit up – I know it for a FACT.
“Incompetence” does not begin to describe the thousand coincidences that have led us to this point.
McCain and Lieberman are in charge of all war strategy – and have been Selected By Israel to be our next Dictatorship.
“The Way Forward” refers to this:
Meyrav Wurmser is an opponent of the Oslo peace accords and a central neoconservative figure. In 1996 she helped write “A Clean Break: A New Strategy for Securing the Realm†and advised then-Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu.
Meyrav Wurmser said: “Our fight against Iraq was only a battle in a long war. It would be ill-conceived to think we can deal with Iraq alone. We must move on, and faster.”
Hudson Institute’s Meyrav Wurmser is the Israeli-born wife of David Wurmser, who serves as Cheney’s leading expert on Iran and Syria
This war is fought for ISRAEL – at your expense.
WAKE UP & SMELL THE FASCISM!
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Central_Asia_watch/Is_Iran_Next.html
July 26th, 2007 at 10:47 am>The amount of back-tracking and denial by liberals is going to be hillarious >when we succeed in Iraq.
Would you consider democracy in Iraq a success if it turns out electing a government like the Palestinians? How do you plan on using military force to prevent such a scenario from occuring. Can you name one powerful political party in Iraq now that isn’t religiously (islamically) based?
> Oh… You actually have a definition of success in Iraq? Something other >than withdrawal?
No, if he’s smart, he probably doesnt.. thats because there isnt one. He asked you for your definition. Any person with half a brain knows that best case scenario is a relatively calm, but pro-iranian/ pro-hezbollah islamic theocracy.
You people are essentially claiming that for any scenario, there is a potential positive outcome. Because we’re america. Or something like that. Sometimes, there are no good outcomes.. whats the potential positive outcome from dousing yourself in gasoline and setting yourself on fire in the middle of a fireworks stand? Your so deluded you think america can make lemonade out of horse piss and arsenic.
Go hump the flag elsewhere @sshat. Right now, all we can do is damage control. If you need some republican talking points, see bush seniors reasons as to why he didnt march on bahgdaddi…
> What planet do they live on?
Texass
July 26th, 2007 at 10:48 amZalmay Khalilzad warns that the invasion and occupation of Iraq has opened “a Pandora’s box,” spreading “conflict,” as Cornwell describes it, across the Middle East. In fact, this is precisely what the Straussian neocons want–chaos and conflict spreading like an uncontrollable wild fire, scorching Muslim and Arab culture, eating away at the very societal cohesion of the region, thus leaving it decimated and malleable to reorganization along the lines envisioned by the Straussian neocons….
the actions of the Straussian neocons, following a well-established pattern, are anything but mistakes. Iran realizes this….
….Bush, the useful idiot sock puppet, unelected, court-appointed president of the Straussian neocons, is in the process of jettisoning democracy…. For the Straussian neocons, those of us alarmed and moved to action by the in-your-face onslaught against the Bill of Rights are considered the enemy. “Opponents of the ruling cabal, whatever their stripe, are ‘them.’ Indeed, since the cabal of philosophers is deceiving everyone else, even those who have joined the cause out of religious zeal are, in a real sense, ‘them.’ A small circle of initiates who repel the advances of everyone else is a feature of the Straussian State. These initiates are philosophers who rely on reason, and nihilistic reason tells them there are no rules, none, in this domestic battle,” [Michael] Doliner continues.
In order to construct the Straussian hierarchical society required to wage total, unrelenting, generational war, those opposed to the plan must be systematically eliminated, a process well under way with the illegal use of the NSA’s massive high-tech snoop apparatus. Of course, this apparatus is not employed, as we are assured by a complicit corporate media, to ferret out “al-Qaeda” telephone calls and email messages, but rather to locate and compile electronic dossiers on critics of the Straussians, who will be dealt with in coordinated manner after the next “Pearl Harbor” event occurs–and no doubt the Iranians will endeavor to provide this event after their country is brutally invaded, as Javad Vaeedi promises.
“More dangerous an enemy of the US and its traditional values than Muslims, neo-Jacobins have seized control of the Bush presidency and US foreign policy. They will stop at nothing to achieve their goal of World War IV in the Middle East,” [Paul Craig] Roberts warns. “The neo-Jacobins are rushing to get America involved in a general Middle Eastern war before Americans have time to think. The terrorist scare which worked the first time is being employed again. Once we have attacked other sovereign Islamic countries, we will have to bring back the draft in order to raise the necessary armies or resort to nuclear weapons…. If the American public falls for the second round of neo-Jacobin propaganda [in the current context, against Iran], neither do they deserve, nor will they have, liberty and democracy.”
http://kurtnimmo.com/?p=278
July 26th, 2007 at 10:48 am* Feb. 7, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, to U.S. troops in Aviano, Italy: “It is unknowable how long that conflict will last. It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months.”
* March 4, Air Force Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, at a breakfast with reporters: “What you’d like to do is have it be a short, short conflict. . . . Iraq is much weaker than they were back in the ’90s,” when its forces were routed from Kuwait.
* March 11, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, in a speech to the Veterans of Foreign Wars: “The Iraqi people understand what this crisis is about. Like the people of France in the 1940s, they view us as their hoped-for liberator.”
* March 16, Vice President Cheney, on NBC’s Meet the Press: “I think things have gotten so bad inside Iraq, from the standpoint of the Iraqi people, my belief is we will, in fact, be greeted as liberators. . . . I think it will go relatively quickly, . . . (in) weeks rather than months.” He predicted that regular Iraqi soldiers would not “put up such a struggle” and that even “significant elements of the Republican Guard . . . are likely to step aside.”
* Pat Robertson: “He was just sitting there, like, I’m on top of the world, and I warned him about this war. I had deep misgivings about this war, deep misgivings. And I was trying to say, ‘Mr. President, you better prepare the American people for casualties,’ ” Robertson said.
“Oh, no, we’re not going to have any casualties,” Robertson quoted Bush as saying. ” ‘Well,’ I said, ‘it’s the way it’s going to be. . . . The Lord told me it was going to be, A, a disaster and, B, messy.’ “
July 26th, 2007 at 10:49 amTP headline is beyond misleading!!!
but what else can we expect from a Democratic propaganda machine, right? sad, sad.
Regardless the poll question is quite biased. The poll question assumes and forces the respondet to also assume that the USA image around the world has been hurt.
I find it amusing that Liberals who always claim Americans don’t have a clue, that Americans are uneducated, that Americans don’t care about politics always grab on so hard to meaningless polls like this.
July 26th, 2007 at 10:50 amPhilip Zelikow – PsyOps Operative
http://www.ichblog.eu/content/view/32/1/
The Bush administration is very serious about controlling information. That’s why they launched the Pentagon’s Dept of Strategic Information. The military is now deeply engaged in “full spectrum dominance†of all information technologies.
Consequently, “controlling the narrative†is more important than one might think. Propaganda is the cheapest and most effective way to control public behavior.
The Bush administration has made some notable contributions to the traditional propaganda-paradigm. In fact, former Counselor at the State Dept, Philip Zelikow, (who was also executive director of the 9-11 Commission) is an expert in “the creation and maintenance of ‘public myths’ or ‘public presumptions’, which he defines as beliefs thought to be true although not necessarily known to be true with certainty, shared in common with the relevant political community. He has taken a special interest in ‘searing’ or ‘molding’ events that take on ‘transcendent’ importance and, therefore, retain there power even as the experiencing generation passes from the sceneâ€.
“In the Nov-Dec 1998 issue of Foreign Affairs he co-authored an article called ‘Catastrophic Terrorism’ in which he speculated that if the 1993 bombing of the World Trade center had succeeded ‘the resulting horror and chaos would have exceeded our ability to describe it. Such an act of catastrophic terrorism would be a watershed event in American history. ‘It could involve loss of life and property unprecedented in peacetime and undermine America’s fundamental sense of security. The US might respond with draconian measures scaling back civil liberties, allowing wider surveillance of citizens, detention of suspects and use of deadly force.
The previous paragraph is WRITTEN IN 1998!?! 3 YEARS BEFORE 9-11!
Where, one might ask, did Zelikow get his crystal ball?
Isn’t this the exact blueprint for what is taking place right now?
Zelikow has figured out that the real essence of controlling behavior is not simply “propagating†ideas but understanding how humans process information.
Both 9-11 and the blowing up of the Golden dome Mosque are examples of how this theory works.
July 26th, 2007 at 10:50 amRead This!
http://www.thedailystar.com/news/stories/2007/07/25/jprowearrest0722.html
THEN…
Watch this!
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3837554806768067398
After having served in Iraq – Loose Change Producer kidnapped by Army:
http://www.prisonplanet.com./articles/july2007/250707neoconscheer.htm
SPREAD THE WORD!
July 26th, 2007 at 10:51 amOh, no, we’re not going to have any casualties,†Robertson quoted Bush as saying. †‘Well,’ I said, ‘it’s the way it’s going to be. . . . The Lord told me it was going to be, A, a disaster and, B, messy.’ “
Comment by ace — July 26, 2007 @ 10:49 am
When Bush says, “we”, he’s not talking about Americans – he’s referring to Neocons.
July 26th, 2007 at 10:54 am“Surely you must have a clear idea of what “success in Iraq†would entail…otherwise you would not have wasted our time bleating about it…right?” (comment to 20wordsorless)
Comment by TripMaster Monkey — July 26, 2007 @ 10:45 am
I think “success” to the Republicans now means “stay the course and muddle through until we get out of office — then blast the Dems as much as possible for not coming up with a perfect plan”.
Like smashing a porcelain figurine with a baseball bat and then criticizing somebody else for not coming up with a way to repair it perfectly.
July 26th, 2007 at 11:04 amace sez:
Yes, I read a comment posted by a jubilant troll yesterday about how Korey Rowe had been arrested for desertion…inexplicably, the troll failed to mention how Korey concluded his service to the Army over 2 years ago, and has since made numerous public appearances, at any one of which the authorities could have taken him into custody.
Here’s another link to the Korey Rowe political persecution.
July 26th, 2007 at 11:07 amBy the way, 20wordsorless, I’m still waiting for that definition. I’m sure there are numerous other TP posters here who are curious as well.
July 26th, 2007 at 11:11 amWhy do you bother TMM, 20words will just cut and paste the definition for success directly from the White House site, same as all of the trolls do. The problem being, that 3 of the 4 goals outlined by the White House are political goals, and are unachievable by the military.
July 26th, 2007 at 11:15 amBy the way, 20wordsorless, I’m still waiting for that definition. I’m sure there are numerous other TP posters here who are curious as well.
Comment by TripMaster Monkey
He’s wandered off, muttering something about “stupid libs.” You’re not going to get a cogent response because it doesn’t exist. The neocons cling to their unsupported belief that we will “win” in Iraq because God is on our side and because we must win.
This is why the Bushies did such a horrible job in the occupation: we didn’t need to be adequately prepared because we were meant to “win.” And, of course, because they persistently hire people for blind Bush love instead of competence. And, of course, because it was a stupid idea in the first place.
July 26th, 2007 at 11:18 amKrazny sez:
First of all, if dolt was smart enough to think of that, he wouold have done it already, instead of clumsily attempting to turn the question around, as he did in post #34.
Second, I just want to get his definition of “success” documented, so that when the inevitable failure rolls around, he can’t redefine success on the fly, as he and his role models in the White House have been doing for some time now.
July 26th, 2007 at 11:20 amOh yes… this Zogby poll has ruined my life. Open your eyes, veritas’ comments are nothing more than high-strung rants. By the way, I love how you refer to me as the troll—like I’m not even human.
Comment by 20wordsorless
This is a progressive blog, and near as I can tell veritas lands somewhere to the left of center — she can rant here all she likes.
Regarding your hurt feelings about being referred to as “the troll.”
I have no actual proof that you are human, but since you managed to push all the right buttons to make a comment here, I will assume you are some sort of life form.
It’s been agreed that trolls are a life form, so you fit right in.
All better now….
July 26th, 2007 at 11:27 amgummitch sez:
While I’m sure that that’s what many of the hoi polloi who blindly support Chimpy & Co. think, I’m sure that the real motivations of this criminal cabal are far darker than mere religious zealotry and incompetence.
Consider the things that this administration has succeeded in doing…they’ve consolidated an unprecedented amount of power in the executive, and have rolled back individual liberty to unprecedented lows (at least in this country). These accomplishments are not the work of incompetents, and I don’t believe Iraq is, either.
Certainly, if you accept the administration’s stated reasons and goals for Iraq, rampant incompetence is a plausible explanation. But if you consider the real reasons and goals, you can see this administration for the frighteningly competent and ruthlessly efficient predator that it is.
Don’t be fooled by Chimpy…he’s just there to put on a show. He never wielded any real power, and wouldn’t know what to do with it if he did. His job is to distract you and make the “incompetence” excuse look plausible….hence the bumbling mannerisms, fraternity-grade hijinks, and Fundie idiocy.
Invading and occupying Iraq was indeed a stupid idea, if you accept the reasons given. But when you consider what this junta’s true motives, it’s just another necessary step.
July 26th, 2007 at 11:30 amIt’s down to the 20 percenters now…and Barney!
July 26th, 2007 at 11:32 amI am just amazed that there are still 20+ percent of the people in this country who are in the moron category. How anyone could think that our misadventure in Iraq has not affected our standing in the world escapes me. These must be the people whose only source of news is Faux Noise.
July 26th, 2007 at 11:40 amI will tell you what success in Iraq means. It mean preventing the destruction of our own country from within. The Bush admin is using this to create fear, with that fear, they have broken down and deteriorated the constitutional protections and balance of power.
They continue to spread the rhetoric – “We need to stay in Iraq because we are making progress” – and – “We need to stay in Iraq because it is getting worse and that shows the threat”. Two mutually exclusive arguments and I have heard them used in the same interviews.
As for the coalition forces, it is nothing more than lip service, just like this administration’s “support the troops” rhetoric. When we attacked Iraq, the UN Security council only had 3 out of 15 members that were willing to back US military action on the basis of resolution 1441 (that had passed unanimously in 2001).
I am sick of seeing my country destroyed – that is what is ruining my life. We can point out all the lies, the deception, the death and destruction and each time someone has the nerve to come back and say “oh we will win” or this is necessary, but can’t show me any facts, figures, statistics – or even provide a realistic scenario of how we would win or what it would look like. In fact, they aren’t even willing to put their butt where there mouth is and HELP in this great cause. They sit behind their computers with poms poms yelling “Go USA. I support my troops because I have a yellow sticker on my car. GOOOOOO TEAM”.
For the sake of argument, let’s say I find a genie in a bottle and I wish the Iraq war ends tomorrow and the Iraqis can get along – what have we won? We have racked up a debt that will haunt this country for decades (even centuries) to come. We have lost friends, sons,daughters, mothers, and fathers. Al Qaeda will still be stronger than it was in 2001. The Taliban is still reconstituted. And our rights have been stripped away and I don’t recognize the USA anymore. The world will still hate us and more people will probably want to harm it. The military is still stressed and severely weakened and we will have 10s of thousands if not more, wounded and suffering troops that our country is unwilling to pay for because it would mean more taxes – and heaven forbid we raise taxes and ask the American people sacrifice for such an essential cause during a time of war. The solution is to “go to the mall”.
I have some questions. How bad does it have to get before you change your mind? What rights will you miss when they are stripped away? Who will fight for you when they have disposed of all of us that are fighting to preserve this country?
July 26th, 2007 at 11:42 am20wordsorless sez:
Oh… You actually have a definition of success in Iraq? Something other than withdrawal?
I’m waiting for yours, dolt. You’re the one yammering on about “succeeding†in Iraq. I want to know your definition of “successâ€, so I can keep you from moving the goalposts when it doesn’t happen.
Surely you must have a clear idea of what “success in Iraq†would entail…otherwise you would not have wasted our time bleating about it…right?
Comment by TripMaster Monkey
You’re getting rather cocky aren’t you? You’re so proud of your ability to be a verbal bully that the correct use of words is lost in your swagger. The word yammer means to talk loudly and at length, neither of which I did. And I do not move goalposts, I stand by what I say—that’s called integrity. When I am proven wrong, I stand corrected—that’s called humility. I realize that you are devoid of these qualities, and I’m only spelling them out for the sake of the other readers. Your use of the word bleating misses the mark as well. To bleat means to complain annoyingly. I did not complain. While you may find a differing opinion annoying, that is all I did—state a differing opinion. As for wasting your time, I seriously doubt it. Just by the sheer number of times I see the name TripMaster Monkey appear on these message boards, I’d say you have nothing better to do. But I’ll succumb to your demand and say this much;
This is what success in Iraq would look like to me—a more stabile country with less sectarian violence. One that will not collapse when we withdraw. A nation that will be able to defend itself, and its citizens no longer tolerate extremism and terrorism—we’re seeing signs of that already.
July 26th, 2007 at 11:43 am#29 “and American troops to stop their regional genocides.”
Oh really, we are sending American troops somewhere to stop their regional genocides? Care to tell me where these troops are going and how many were sent.
July 26th, 2007 at 11:44 amA nation that will be able to defend itself, and its citizens no longer tolerate extremism and terrorism—we’re seeing signs of that already.
Comment by 20wordsorless — July 26, 2007 @ 11:43 am
Tell that to the 50 people who died in a car bomb blast this morning. Iraq will take 10-15 years to be stable, and will never be an ally to the US.
July 26th, 2007 at 11:47 amComment by katy — July 26, 2007 @ 10:06 am
Thanks for the post. Reese is usually a dope. Years ago, he attacked Clinton relentlessly.
But, this time the unthinkable happened: He wrote something I agreed with!
July 26th, 2007 at 11:47 amits citizens no longer tolerate extremism and terrorism—we’re seeing signs of that already.
Comment by 20wordsorless — July 26, 2007 @ 11:43 am
You’re right…they are asking the US troops to get out and stop terrorizing them.
July 26th, 2007 at 11:54 amits citizens no longer tolerate extremism and terrorism—we’re seeing signs of that already.
Comment by 20wordsorless — July 26, 2007 @ 11:43 am
Who is seeing it? You? Where have you seen this progress?
July 26th, 2007 at 11:56 amCarrhae. Learn about it.
July 26th, 2007 at 11:57 am20wordsorless sez:
It’s difficult not to, when you’re my “opponent”.
So demanding that you provide a definition of your nebulous term “success in Iraq” is now ‘verbal bullying’?
Pauvre bebe. If you’re going to spout your ridiculous screeds here, you better be prepared to have them challenged.
Let’s see…blah blah integrity (that’s a laugh), blah blah humility (spare me), blah blah succumb…oh, hey…here’s something of substance:
So, just more stability and less sectarian violence, huh? How much more and how much less? You’re being rather vague here…
As for a nation that will be able to defend itself…defend itself from what? Iraq version 1.0 didn’t do so well against us, as I recall.
As for its citizens no longer tolerating extremism and terrorism, that’s an awfully tall order, seeing as how we tolerate them here…
And as for seeing signs of that already, nice attempt to slide in some of your neocon “the surge is working” talking points, but you can save it.
Despite all that, thank you for your definition, vague though it was. I’m cutting and pasting it for future reference.
July 26th, 2007 at 12:01 pmDemonstrated: 20% of people is a slow learner (if learns at all).
July 26th, 2007 at 12:04 pmits citizens no longer tolerate extremism and terrorism—we’re seeing signs of that already.
Comment by 20wordsorless — July 26, 2007 @ 11:43 am
Oh really, and how would you square the fact that the majority of the foreign terrorists in Iraq are our “good friends” the Saudis?
July 26th, 2007 at 12:07 pmWho is seeing it? You? Where have you seen this progress?
Comment by DanCaveman
You need to get out of the cave more often Dan,
The cooperation that led to the capture of al-Qaida leader Khaled Abdul-Fattah Dawoud Mahmoud al-Mashhadani is one example.
July 26th, 2007 at 12:10 pmOh really, and how would you square the fact that the majority of the foreign terrorists in Iraq are our “good friends†the Saudis?
Comment by Real American Patriot
Where do you get your facts? Try Pakistan and Iran.
July 26th, 2007 at 12:11 pmForgive me if I don’t celebrate at the death of people who were probably replaced before their bodies were cold. Forgive me in thinking that rising violence and increasing deaths (American Military and Iraqi deaths) are not a sign of progress after 4+ years.
Forgive me if scores of IEDs going off everyday are not a good sign.
By the way, I have been out of my cave. Have you? How are you supporting our troops in this essential occupation? Just curious.
July 26th, 2007 at 12:14 pmWhere do you get your facts? Try Pakistan and Iran.
Comment by 20wordsorless — July 26, 2007 @ 12:11 pm
Source please.
July 26th, 2007 at 12:15 pm> A nation that will be able to defend itself, and its citizens no longer tolerate extremism and terrorism—
and you’re proposing that military force be used to turn people away from groups like Hezbollah? did you hear ANYTHING about the pro-Hezbollah rallies in Iraq when the Israelis were bombing lebanon? do you really and truly think that groups with idealogies like hezbollah wont be the ones to control iraq? care to discuss why we used to like saddam running iraq, and why that logic doesnt apply anymore..?
>we’re seeing signs of that already.
where? you know all the political benchmarks we set for them are going nowhere, right? a report comissioned by your own hero showed that..
what political parties in iraq are going to lead iraq away from its current course of democractically transforming into an islamic theocracy?
the current “moderates” power brokers in iraq are pro-iranian islamic clerics, (al-Sistani)..who support reasonable positions like “homosexuals should be killed”…
yeah, iraq really has the potential to be a great bastion of human rights and democracy.. (snort)
July 26th, 2007 at 12:16 pmWhere do you get your facts? Try Pakistan and Iran.
Comment by 20wordsorless — July 26, 2007 @ 12:11 pm
Saudi Arabia accounted for 94 jihadists, or 61 percent of the sample. Of the 94 Saudis, 61 originated in the region of Najd, known as the heart-land of the militant Wahhabis sect;
Syria accounted for 16 (10 per-cent);
Iraq itself accounted for only 13 (8 per-cent);
Kuwait accounted for 11 (7 percent);
The remainder included small numbers from Jordan, Lebanon, Libya, Algeria, Morocco (of which one was a resident in Spain), Yemen, Tunisia, the Palestinian territories (only 1), Dubai, and Sudan. The Sudanese was living in Saudi Arabia before he went to die in Iraq.
Here is the link: http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2005/4/4/132643.shtml
July 26th, 2007 at 12:16 pmDon’t mess with the bull son, you’ll get the horns.
July 26th, 2007 at 12:20 pmUnfortunately for you, I know where you get your talking points…er I mean “facts”
July 26th, 2007 at 12:22 pm>And as for seeing signs of that already
He’s probably going to give us some drivel about “the sunnis are turning against al-queda” or some garbage like that…
if he pulls that one out, let me pre-emptively say:
A) the evidence of this is largely anectdotal, and we have seen very little proof that this is anything but propagand…for all we know they could be
taking our guns and laughing at us.. many probably are..
B) FOreign Jihadis like AQI only make up about 5 percent of the insurgents in Iraq.. these foreign guys are hyped as being the cause of everything, but in truth, they are a small part..Even american military have admitted that the biggest threat to stability in iraq is not from foreign jihadis, its from Shiite death squads.. you know, thes ones we “liberated” from saddam..
C) Just because the some Sunnis dont like Al-Queda doesnt mean they have “rejected extremism” or that they suddently want to make peace with the Shia death squads..they are taking our weapons and in return all we get is a promise they will use them on Al-Queda and not us…esentially we are simply giving a little more firepower to one side of a convuluted, complicated civil war
July 26th, 2007 at 12:25 pmYou are no longer a democracy — on 17 July Bush signed a bill that outlaws protest against Iraq war and enables seizure of assets of protesters.
Your attempt to set up a missile “shield” in Poland and Czech republic ostensibly to “protect” Europe from attack by cave dwellers in Tora Bora shows how determined the US is to attain full spectrum dominance so that it doesn’t have to pay the market price for oil and other resources.
Iraqi anti-occupation fighters are freedom-fighters for the entire world.
July 26th, 2007 at 12:29 pmTripMaster Monkey Says;
So demanding that you provide a definition of your nebulous term “success in Iraq†is now ‘verbal bullying’?
Don’t play dumb. You’re well aware of how you conduct yourself.
Let’s see…blah blah integrity (that’s a laugh), blah blah humility (spare me), blah blah succumb…
Just as I thought—the concept of integrity and humility are indeed lost on you. it’s no wonder you expect me be dishonest and decietful.
So, just more stability and less sectarian violence, huh? How much more and how much less? You’re being rather vague here…
Less is less moron. How much less crime would you like to see in our major cities vs. how much of that is realistic? How does one give an exact number in these situations?
As for a nation that will be able to defend itself…defend itself from what?
From the radicals that seek to swoop in after we withdraw—seeking to use Iraq as they see fit.
As for its citizens no longer tolerating extremism and terrorism, that’s an awfully tall order, seeing as how we tolerate them here…
Right… there’s absolutely no difference between the terrorism and extremism in America than that occurring in Iraq. Brilliant argument there…
Despite all that, thank you for your definition, vague though it was. I’m cutting and pasting it for future reference.
I’m honored. Now it’s your turn—how do you define success in Iraq?
July 26th, 2007 at 12:34 pmHey 20wordsorless, I believe that dbadass is still waiting for your source.
July 26th, 2007 at 12:35 pm>The cooperation that led to the capture of al-Qaida leader Khaled Abdul->Fattah Dawoud Mahmoud al-Mashhadani is one example.
oh yes, obviously a very important guy, we hadnt even heard his name before he was captured.,.
you think hes as important this Al-Queda “leader” (who never actually existed, and who was allegedly killed twice)
http://www.globalsecurity.org/security/profiles/abu_omar_al-baghdadi.htm
?
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-iraq19jul19,0,886772.story?coll=la-home-center
heres another “Al-queda type” guy who was allegedly killed twice..
http://www.revereradio.net/e107/news.php?item.534.6
you ever, ever wonder, if maybe, just maybe these guys are lying to you about who and what they capture, for propganda purposes?
July 26th, 2007 at 12:35 pmComment by Real American Patriot — July 26, 2007 @ 12:35 pm
I’m a patient man
July 26th, 2007 at 12:36 pmAs for a nation that will be able to defend itself…defend itself from what?
From the radicals that seek to swoop in after we withdraw—seeking to use Iraq as they see fit.
Comment by 20wordsorless — July 26, 2007 @ 12:34 pm
What you mean the Saudis?
July 26th, 2007 at 12:37 pm>From the radicals that seek to swoop in after we withdraw.
They arent “swooping in” after we leave, moron.. they are already running iraq..they were elected “democractically”…why do you think that we helped saddam gas these guys 20 years ago? Because we didnt want the pro-iranian Shia gaining power in Iraq..and now they are…
so.. why DO you think we helped saddam gas these same people 20 years ago, anyway?
July 26th, 2007 at 12:39 pmTo all the posters here at TP, I would just like to apologize for the thorough smack down given to 20wordsorless. I kinda feel bad since it’s so easy. I’ve never beaten up a retard before but I would imagine it feels a lot like this. Well I’m out of here. Got other things to do ya know. Go ahead 20wordsorless swing away, I promise I’m done thrashing you……FOR NOW! Up up and away.
July 26th, 2007 at 12:46 pmIt is true that 80 or should I say more than that data is an “acceptable reality”. There is no doubt about that fact given by a pollster. Definitely it is an uppercut to the jaw of the American integrity to the whole world, by attacking an inferior state, an independent nation in the world… With no valid and justified reasons and evidence, they push through this strategic war plan in days. And then this was for along time now. Years!
So with this facts and the numbers are in…80 percent of the American belief has spoken out. Bush must go. It is now the time for Democrats to rule the chambers of power in government.
This 80% is a great multitude and indeed a majority of them has this sympathy and sense of peace in their hearts and minds… I am one of them. Even tough I am here in the Philippines I am one of them, a peace advocate.
The solution for this war was not as blurred as it seems, it is on the day that the troops and the government decided to went it Iraq. This were the words of Senator Barack Obama that I remembered.
So there is nothing to doubt and surprised for this true! and an “Acceptable Reality”.
July 26th, 2007 at 12:47 pmWhere do you get your facts? Try Pakistan and Iran.
Comment by 20wordsorless — July 26, 2007 @ 12:11 pm
Sorry to be a bother. I really am a patient man. Thing is I have to leave for work soon. Thanking you in advance for your timely response.
July 26th, 2007 at 12:49 pm20wordsorless sez:
Yes, I am, your histrionics notwithstanding.
I’d admonish you not to “play dumb”, but what would be the point?
Not the concepts, just your attempts to claim those attributes as yours in a pathetic and transparent attempt to gain the moral high ground. You’re not fooling anybody (except perhaps yourself).
I expect you to be dishonest and deceitful because that’s been your observed behavior to date.
How eloquent. So, if sectarian violence were to decrease at all…even by a number of one less casualty a year, you’re prepared to tout that as “success in Iraq”?
I’m not looking for an “exact number”, but I am looking for something a bit more definitive than “less is less moron”. Sorry.
I wouldn’t worry about that…the radicals already in place there will insure that we’ll be the only ones to be able to “use Iraq as we see fit”.
I was being a bit flip with that statement, but once again, predictably, you’ve missed the point entirely. I guess it was too much for you to understand. Again, sorry.
Actually, no, it’s not “my turn”, as I never claimed that anything resembling “success” was possible at this point. I did have a definition of success in Iraq, but that was back in 2002, and your beloved Chimperor didn’t bother to listen to those of us who shouted ourselves hoarse about the consequences of such an ill-conceived invasion…not surprising, since the plan wasn’t ever about “success” anyway.
That’s what makes this whole stupid argument so tragic. The administration never intended us to be “successful”. They intended for us to have a permanent military presence in the M.E., and so far, everything’s right on track.
July 26th, 2007 at 12:54 pm>I’ve never beaten up a retard before
> but I would imagine it feels a lot like this.
You’re a bigger man than I. The comparison rings true, but I have no sympathy for those who willingly mentally cripple themselves..this guy chooses not to think deeply, and he comes here spouting his fauz news talking points, he deserves the abuse he gets
July 26th, 2007 at 12:59 pmComment by TripMaster Monkey — July 26, 2007 @ 12:54 pm
Hey I totally agree with you but your level of discourse is too advanced and it is apparently interferring with 20wordsorless’s ability to site the sources I have requested.
July 26th, 2007 at 1:01 pmHey I totally agree with you but your level of discourse is too advanced and it is apparently interferring with 20wordsorless’s ability to site the sources I have requested.
Comment by dbadass — July 26, 2007 @ 1:01 pm
Then allow me, the sources are The Preznit (and by that I mean Cheney), Tony Blowjob er I mean Snowjob and Faux Noise. Not necessarily in that order.
July 26th, 2007 at 1:21 pmIn 53 BC, Marcus Licinius Crassus, a wealthy patrician with little military experience, invaded Mesopotamia with a Roman army supported by local allies, starting an unprovoked war with Parthia.
In a few months, at Carrhae, his army was over-extended, deceived, betrayed, demoralized, exhausted, surrounded and annihilated. The Parthians executed Crassus by pouring molten gold down his throat, “to satisfy his appetite for wealth.”
To me, there are too many parallels between the Roman adventure in Mesopotamia, and that of the United States. My definition of success is simple: “Don’t be like Crassus.”
July 26th, 2007 at 1:29 pmOff topic. This is a story that every American must see.
July 27th, 2007 at 1:00 amhttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/26/AR2007072602025.html