Bush Administration Subpoenas Michael Moore
Bush Administration Subpoenas Michael Moore
For the filming of his documentary SiCKO, Michael Moore took sick 9/11 workers to Guantanamo Bay, Cuba to help them obtain free medical care. “The (rescue workers) just want medical attention!” Moore shouts into a loudspeaker in the movie, in a futile attempt to win over the security guards. “The same kind Al Qaeda is getting!” In May, Moore announced that the Treasury Department launched an investigation into his trip, examining “whether he had violated restrictions on travel to Cuba.”
Last night on NBC’s Tonight Show with Jay Leno, Moore announced that “the Bush administration has now issued a subpoena for me, going after me for helping these 9/11 rescue workers.” Moore said that the subpoena was unwarranted, since journalists are allowed to travel to Cuba, and “this was a work of journalism.” “I was there to help them and now I’m going to face this further harrassment from the Bush people,” said Moore. “Aren’t they busy with something else?” Watch it:
In May, Moore received a letter from Dale Thompson in the Treasury Department’s Office of Foreign Assets Control, claiming, “OFAC has information indicating that you claimed to qualify under the provision for general license for full-time journalists.”
Moore also announced that on Aug. 11, The Weinstein Company, which distributes SiCKO, will donate 11 percent of the box office receipts to help 9/11 rescue workers who need medical care.
Transcript:
LENO: I was asking you about them in the dressing room. And this is like one of these dramatic moments. We were backstage, and I said, “Hey, what happened with them? I know you took them to Cuba, and I know a couple of months ago the government went after you for going to Cuba” –
MOORE: Took them to Guantanamo Bay.
LENO: Yeah. And everybody to get their health care.
MOORE: Because I heard the al Qaeda terrorists that we have in the camps there detained are receiving free dental, medical, eye care, the whole deal, and our own 9/11 rescue workers can’t get that in New York City. And I just thought there was something completely crazy about that, so we sailed into Guantanamo Bay and filmed it, to try to get them the same care we’re giving al Qaeda. The Bush administration became upset at that, and it informed me at the same — when I was on the show last — that they were investigating me for doing this.
LENO: Well, investigating you for going to Cuba.
MOORE: Yeah, because Guantanamo Bay is in Cuba, and once we’re there in Cuba, we couldn’t get any help, so we went and got help from the Cuban doctors.
LENO: But a lot of celebrities go to Cuba.
MOORE: Yeah, oh yeah. Leonardo DiCaprio has been there, Cameron Diaz.
LENO: Sure, a lot of people go. But what happened just an hour ago —
MOORE: You want me to tell what happened –
LENO: Sure, go ahead.
MOORE: Ok, well, I haven’t even told my own family this yet, so you’re asking me to do this on national television.
LENO: Yeah, but it’s NBC, so not that many people are watching.
MOORE: Alright. Well, I was just informed while I was back there with Jay that the Bush administration has now issued a subpoena for me, going after me for helping these 9/11 rescue workers.
LENO: Well, no, for going to Cuba, it wasn’t for helping them –
MOORE: Well, that’s why I went there. I didn’t go there like Cameron Diaz to get a tan. No offense, I’m all for her tan. I’m just sailing around on a pontoon there in Cuba, but that’s not why I was there. I was there to help them and now I’m going to face this further harrassment from the Bush people. Aren’t they busy with something else?
LENO: What does the subpoena involve? Is it because you went to Cuba, is that why?
MOORE: Yeah, because as free citizens in a free country we’re not allowed to travel to Cuba, but journalists can go, and this was a work of journalism. But frankly, the larger point’s being missed here. The point is that first of all, can we all agree that we should take care of 9/11 rescue workers? You know? And you know, actually, Harvey Weinstein who owns the company that’s distributing the film — the Weinstein Company — they have said that on Aug. 11 this year, they’re going to donate 11 percent of the box office of SiCKO to help these workers and the other workers who need some help.
LENO: That’s good.
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Moore must L-O-V-E this. More publicity, AND he may get to publicly SPANK the Bush administration in court.
July 27th, 2007 at 9:54 amMichael Moore should decline to respond to the subpoena. After all, the Chimpy administration has previously established that subpoenas need not be heeded.
July 27th, 2007 at 9:54 amRepublicans Can’t Govern sez:
Indeed he must. It’s a foolish move by the White House to do something this public. The more attention Moore gets the more he wins.
July 27th, 2007 at 9:56 amIf there is anything that this administration has shown us, it is that subpoenas are voluntary. You can ignore them. Hell, Moore should claim that Executive Privelege appiles to him, because he once worked with a guy that knew someone who worked at the White House. Seems to be working for Harriet Miers.
July 27th, 2007 at 9:57 amJust when you think that the Keystone Kops could not possibly do anything stupider, they come up with another clinker.
I am sure that Moore is saying “bring ‘em on”.
July 27th, 2007 at 9:58 am“Who you going to send after me? The Attorney General??”
July 27th, 2007 at 10:02 amMoore should claim movie executive privilege.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:04 amTrolls are gonna love this
July 27th, 2007 at 10:04 amI am printing a few thousand SICKO cards for my friends and neighbors today. I am going to hand it to my doctor, mayor and everyone else.
I can’t wait to see this one play out. Someone we trust like Mike, and someone we can’t trust for anything except criminal activity on a global scale.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:04 amMoore needs a new lawyer. Journos don’t have a right to access to Cuba.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:05 amLa administración de Bush es estúpida. That just about sums it up!
July 27th, 2007 at 10:05 amhey moore, just claim executive privilege and tell them to go to hell.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:06 am“movie executive privilege” @ 7
Nice.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:10 amPlease keep us posted on the date, so we can make travel and hotel bookings.
This will be the show of the century.
I see a broadway musical based on this.
Jack Jett
July 27th, 2007 at 10:11 amhttp://www.jackejett.com
So what? Subpoenas don’t mean sh!t these days, right? I mean, you can just ignore them and not show up. That’s what I heard.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:11 amI watched that last night, as I await word on a date for gallbladder surgery, for which I have no insurance. I will be deeper in debt, (my double cancer two years ago makes me essentially uninsurable) and there is no guarantee the operation will relieve my pain, but it is necessary. I have several friends in similar or worse situations, and a couple of them have health insurance, but they must battle for every payment.
My 18-year old, who took me to see SICKO watched the Leno show with me. He finally asked me how it made me feel, especially in light of the government “investigation”, and I just turned to him with tears in my eyes. He understood. America is failing at this…the richest country in the world is now extra rich in irony.
I had a contemptuous moment over the weekend, watching Bush walk away from his polyp-removing colonoscopy, knowing that I (an every other taxpayer) paid for his return to good health, too.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:12 amThe Bushneys have fallen into Moore’s trap. Moore wants as much light as possible to be shone on the dismal health care situation in this country, and if it means getting subpoenaed, arrested, or even jailed, this will keep the topic in the news — and thereby keep the pressure on our government for change.
If Bush was smart (yes, I realize the absurdity of that remark), he would have just ignored Moore. SiCKO would have had its run in the theaters, made a slight splash again when it hit DVD, and then the country would have turned their attention to something else.
Keep fanning the fire, George. We need to do something about health care, and you are helping to keep the issue in the papers.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:15 amThis proves they have nothing better to do with their time and the salaries we are paying them. The entire country is going to hell in a handbasket (sorry, hellinahandbasket!) and they are going after Michael Moore. This bespeaks the level of chicanery and charlatanism which they epitomize.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:16 ammissmolly: Yes, they’re certainly now drawing everyone’s attention to the great disparity in our healthcare model. They’re actively “fanning the flames” of a critical mass of dissent. I also believe that there will be an investigation into the price fixing practices of Big Insurance – one of Bush’s “Holy Trinity”. Big Oil, Big Pharma, and Big Insurance….the money which continues to fund the GOP.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:18 amhe needs to claim Directorial Privilege
July 27th, 2007 at 10:18 ammissmolly: And the longer this remains headline news, the more people who either have no healthcare coverage because they cannot afford it or who have it and have experienced nightmares when attempting to utilize it will join together into one collective voice and demand that this country change this abomination we now call “healthcare”. I think Georgie Porgie is doing a “heckova job” in tanking his own constituency.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:19 amBut…but…but…I thought Gitmo was an infamous torture center? Now Moore, whom you all seem to idolize, is under the impression that the place provides first-class medical care.
You whackheads need to keep your conspiracies straight, your tracks are starting to diverge.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:20 amHi Ace, Wayne (both Wayne’s), et al…I peruse the threads each morning and I see that, once again, you’ve all outdone yourselves with valuable information, support data via links to your comments, as well as annihilation of the trolls. Good work!
July 27th, 2007 at 10:23 amBig Oil, Big Pharma, and Big Insurance
What you need to do is advocate that the government take over responsibility for producing new drugs and medical devices, Im sure they could create a new beuracracy that would do a better job than private industry.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:23 amMr. President
July 27th, 2007 at 10:24 amHe should claim executive privilege
July 27th, 2007 at 10:24 amIt looks like the idiots in chief are playing right into Michael Moore’s hands on this move. Gotta love it! Now Michael will receive notoriety and visibility for this on top of that which his movie is already receiving. Since Michael Moore has more innate intelligence in one of his toes than Dumbya has in his entire body, I’d have to believe that Michael strategized and goaded them into this. Moore is pure genius.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:26 amValuable information? You mean ‘truther’ shat about the WTC being destroyed by alien technology under the control of Rove? That information?
Leave it to the libs to embrace a feverish anti-semite as one of their trusted sources.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:26 amPizza: Don’t be such a fatalist. I’m merely suggesting that we utilize the same drug companies who are providing the drugs to Canadians for half the price. You know….the ones who do not have Bush on their payroll…..yeah…those guys.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:28 am#24. No thanks. BUT, how about Big Oil, Big Pharma, and Big Medical leave Federal policy to the U.S. citizens and their representatives? Instead, we have their lobbyists actually writing the bills that are signed into law.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:29 amMoore is a liar. He did not go to Cuba merely for journalistic purposes, as he himself states: “The (rescue workers) just want medical attention!â€
Which is it Michael, journalism, or medical attention?
I suspect Moore is lying so as to draw attention to himself, promote his movie, and take cheap shots at the USA.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:29 amBesides, we can’t entrust the surity of getting water to thousands of dying Katrina victims in New Orleans to THIS government so how can anyone realistically suggest that they can handle something as complex as healthcare?
July 27th, 2007 at 10:29 amThe White House throws another tantrum. This is Rove’s response to getting subpoenaed. He’s probably writing dirty words on the walls of his office with crayon right now. Is there no adult supervision there at all?
July 27th, 2007 at 10:29 amNow Michael will receive notoriety and visibility for this on top of that which his movie is already receiving.
Which would be next to nothing. I wonder if Moore talked to the average Cubans who dont get to visit the fancy hospitals reserved for foreigners. I also wonder why Castro had to bring in a Spanish doctor to operate on him.
Feel free to peruse the pics. The one on the top left should suffice.
http://www.therealcuba.com/Page10.htm
July 27th, 2007 at 10:30 ampersonally, mr. pizza, i don’t want profit-hungry pharmaceuticals pushing inadequately tested drugs to the market.
i prefer the model of research institutions and universities with an actual motive of helping the public. when drugs are a profit industry, we get bad drugs that are lobbied to the market. jonas salk didn’t patent his vaccine for polio; he didn’t want profit, he wanted to end polio.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:30 amMoore didn’t travel to Castro’s Cuba, he went to Gitmo, which is an American base. How is this illegal?
I lived in Gitmo many years ago, and there was lots of security around the land border, of course, but I was not aware of the security over the water.
Seriously, if anyone actually knows the answer, I’d like to hear it. Although not from a troll, please.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:31 amThis bespeaks… chicanery and charlatanism…
Comment by veritas — July 27, 2007 @ 10:16 am
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Indeed. I feel the same about Moore.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:31 amBut…but…but…I thought Gitmo was an infamous torture center? Now Moore, whom you all seem to idolize, is under the impression that the place provides first-class medical care.
Comment by Pizza the Hutt — July 27, 2007 @ 10:20 am
I believe the reason WHY Moore was under the impression that Gitmo provided first-class medical care is because our current administration has continually put out the talking point that the detainees there are staying in a warm resort-like Caribbean location, getting fed well, and getting first-class medical care. Since the people accompanying him couldn’t get any medical care in the U.S., why not see if ordinary Americans could get the same great health care afforded terrorism suspects?
BTW — we are still unconvinced that Gitmo provides first-class medical care. Since Moore was turned away, we still have no evidence except our government’s word for it.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:31 amZehava: That’s correct. Gitmo is an american base and not illegal at all, as I see it.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:32 amComment by chimpeach
CHIMPEACH!!!
OOo… OOoo… ooOOoo… AaaHHh.. Aaa… AAAAaaaHHhHH!!!!!!!!
July 27th, 2007 at 10:32 amOn a lighter note, I hope Moore gets lots of attention over this subpoena, he’ll draw even more attention to the healthcare problems in this country. And the whacked out priorities of this administration.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:33 amI think this is great because it really shows how myopic this administration actually is: They are taking the time (and our tax dollars) to go after Michael Moore when our national security is threatened at every open border in this country??? WTF??? Do they expect the people to rally around this level of chicanery and deceit?
What this will handily accomplish is an even greater repudiation of Bush and his entire cabal. His numbers on one poll yesterday toiletted to 23%….I expect he will be in the teens before the summer is over.
Maybe he’ll do all americans a huge favor and decide to retire and not come back following his month long vacation in August? One can only wish for such a “gift”.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:34 amWhich is it Michael, journalism, or medical attention?
Moore went there to document the rescue workers receiving medical care. That’s why they call it a “documentary”. It’s considered to be a form of journalism.
See? That wasn’t so hard.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:34 amZehava: Precisely what Moore is doing! He’s making the myopic president look like a fool and he is accomplishing his task: drawing mega attention to his message of the corruption within the healthcare industry. This is genius.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:35 amMoore went there to document the rescue workers receiving medical care. That’s why they call it a “documentaryâ€. It’s considered to be a form of journalism.
See? That wasn’t so hard.
Comment by chimpeach — July 27, 2007 @ 10:34 am
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So he went there to document himself and others breaking US law!
Great idea!
July 27th, 2007 at 10:36 amBy the time the Chump returns from his vacation in September, there will be so many scandals and fires to put out that he’ll be totally engulfed and overwhelmed.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:37 amMr. Pissflaps?
Taking cheap shots at the USA? I beg to differ little man, taking shots at the Bush administration is taking shots FOR the USA. Your blind faith is getting old. Bush is the enemy of our country and what we stand for.
He will be remembered as the worst pResident ever, and he will be reviled in the history books just as he and his cowardly weak supporters are despised today.
Maybe even by the time you get to High School the history books will have a chapter on this black period in our history.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:37 amAnd, isn’t the president supposed to be busy doing the people’s business instead of putting on political theatre like this?
July 27th, 2007 at 10:37 amI really think that every time a lawmaker speaks about private insurance being the best and government supplied health care not working they should be asked to give up their government supplied health care just as Moore suggested.
Also the democrats should raise the point that lawmakers get government supplied health care in the upcoming debate over expanding schip. They should point it out when Bush vetoes the bill. they should shame the hypocrites that wish to deny health care for all Americans while letting the tax payer foot their own medical bills.
We need an online netroots campaign to remind the tax payers that these lawmakers think government supplied healthcare is wrong for you but right for them.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:37 amSo he went there to document himself and others breaking US law!
Great idea!
Comment by Mr. President
Which law?
July 27th, 2007 at 10:38 amThe White House is being foolish by going after Moore. They may not like Michael Moore, but he does have the right to say what he wants. This is good publicity for Moore though.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:38 amBush is the enemy of our country and what we stand for.
Comment by nanlichi — July 27, 2007 @ 10:37 am
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Well, I don’t know which Islamic country y’all stand for, but here in the USA, President George W. Bush is no criminal.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:39 amAs long as our country treats its people like disposable razors there are NO cheap shots that shouldn’t be taken.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:39 am#52 you shall shortly find out otherwise…then again there are STILL peeps in russia that LOVE stalin.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:40 amSo he went there to document himself and others breaking US law!
Since he was the one documenting it, he really needed to be there. And journalists are allowed to go. Why didn’t Karl want to subpoena the rescue workers? They were the documentees, not the documentors.
Could it be that the White House finally figured out that they’d screwed these people as much as they possibly could and that anything more would start taking a chunk out of the remaining 26% who are Idiots for Bush? Just a theory.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:41 amWell, I don’t know which Islamic country y’all stand for, but here in the USA, President George W. Bush is no criminal.
Comment by Mr. President — July 27, 2007 @ 10:39 am
He hasn’t stood trial yet, but soon.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:43 amWhich law?
Comment by Republicans Can’t Govern. — July 27, 2007 @ 10:38 am
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Well, from what I understand, and I’m no lawyer, Moore was restricted by the gov’t as to what he could and could not do while in Cuba. Also, from what I hear, he had not yet been authorized to even go to Cuba (I could be wrong about this).
However, he has been subpoenaed, so I’m sure we will learn more about the specifics in due time.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:43 amWell, I don’t know which Islamic country y’all stand for, but here in the USA, President George W. Bush is no criminal.
Well, I guess y’all don’t know what the f*ck you’re talking about then. Hyuk-hyuk-hyuk.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:43 amLesly at 10:05–From the State Department website:
Licenses are granted to the following categories of travelers and they are permitted to spend money for Cuban travel and to engage in other transactions directly incident to the purpose of their travel under a general license, without the need to obtain special permission from the U.S. Treasury Department’s Office of Foreign Assets Control (OFAC):
* Journalists and supporting broadcasting or technical personnel (regularly employed in that capacity by a news reporting organization and traveling for journalistic activities)
July 27th, 2007 at 10:45 am#52 you shall shortly find out otherwise…then again there are STILL peeps in russia that LOVE stalin.
Comment by bobh — July 27, 2007 @ 10:40 am
July 27th, 2007 at 10:45 am——————————————
What? You’re saying that your from an Islamic ex-Soviet nation that hates America?
MOORE: Yeah, because Guantanamo Bay is in Cuba, and once we’re there in Cuba, we couldn’t get any help, so we went and got help from the Cuban doctors.
Moore took them into Cuba (that is not Gitmo) and the doctors there. So, yes, he and the others did go to Cuba. Now, riddle me this – Why is Moore getting a subpoena but the the other people with him are not?
It’s so funny that there are people in the US that are still pissed at Castro. What did he do? Oh yeah, kicked the rich americans out of the land they stole from Cuba. Boo hoo.
Look over there – could it be terrorist coming to do damage to america on it’s own soil? Nope, some Cubans trying to escape Cuba and come to the land of the free where you aren’t allowed to go to Cuba!!!!! LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
July 27th, 2007 at 10:45 amWhy is Moore getting a subpoena but the the other people with him are not?
It was Moore’s idea, and provided the means to get there… in short, it was his fault.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:47 amHowever, he has been subpoenaed, so I’m sure we will learn more about the specifics in due time.
Comment by Mr. President — July 27, 2007 @ 10:43 am
LOL Like this is more important than having the head of the US Justice department forget what job he was supposed to do. Funny stuff.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:49 amwell, yikes, castro also let the soviet union build missile silos on his island…there was this little thing called the cuban missile crisis…
not that i support the embargo, that is. it’s been the main thing that’s kept castro in power and gave him a direct way to demonize the u.s. in his country. in fact there’s almost a direct corollary here
the embargo is to cuba asthe subpeona is to moore
both are attempts to punish an enemy that actually help them. shortsighted and vindictive policies rarely work.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:50 amWhen will this Administration get down to the business of this country instead of engaging in these witch hunts?
July 27th, 2007 at 10:51 amIt was Moore’s idea, and provided the means to get there… in short, it was his fault.
Sorry. Law enforcement doesn’t work that way. He didn’t make them do it. They were willing participants. If there’s any guilt to be had, it would be shared by all of them equally, except that Moore was the one who was there as a journalist.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:51 amhey i’ve got an idea, let’s not use the term ‘witch hunt’ anymore. it’s been massively trivialized and has become the standard partisan tit-for-tat.
waiting on troll to accuse congress of a witch hunt over gonzales in 3…2…1…
July 27th, 2007 at 10:54 amTwo way street people. If Democrats in Congress are going on a fish hunt, the GOP better start striking back. Next up – Dianne Feinstein and her husband’s business ties, Hillary eavesdropping pollster and of course Gov. Spitzer ridiculous fascist eavesdropping scam on Bruo.
This is just the beginning. The Democrats will get their’s – trust me.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:59 amMoore wants socialized medicine, so why not let people see his movie for free?…
Oh, that’s right, Moore is really a capitalist who is using people’s fears about health insurance to cash in.
All you supporters of Moore are dupes.
July 27th, 2007 at 11:03 amThis is just the beginning. The Democrats will get their’s – trust me.
Comment by The Left Hates our Troops — July 27, 2007 @ 10:59 am
Bring it on! Corruption out of my government now!
July 27th, 2007 at 11:03 amBy all means Moore should abide by the laws of this land and respect the subpeona. He should fufill his constitutional obligation and confront his accusers in a court of law.
Now let’s hear the same call for Harriet, Josh and Karl. Nobody is above the law so quit playing the partisan games and work to uphold the constitution.
If Moore is guilty then should pay his debt to society. Same goes for the growing list of Bush Administration loyalists.
July 27th, 2007 at 11:05 amMoore is a tool. Remember Ferenheit 9/11? How is the USA going to give everyone health care when our own government creates false flag ops like 9/11?
What country would want to emulate the US now? No one, the US is a bunch of corrupt elected officials and the idiots still out of the loop, think its a right left thing.
9/11 was an inside job. Newtons laws of basic concepts in physics do not get suspended just because we need to justify a war on terror(bullshit) and the war in Iraq wich now 70% of people think is bullshit.
So lets spread the bullshit of the USA to other countries.
July 27th, 2007 at 11:05 amthanks. you can call it a fish hunt if you want, but you fell for it.
c’mon, hates our troops, you know if this were gore doing what bush has done you righties would’ve already impeached. the funny thing is you’ve all got your panties in a knot and the dems have actually slow-walked this thing.
perhaps they’re smart enough to know, like you say, that’s what republicans are about: the democrats will get theirs.
there’s no rule of law as far as you’re concerned, only partisan retaliation. i want bush gone, but i want it done lawfully and with cause. i’m impatient, but i appreciate the need to not give republicans a precedent for turning our government into an impeach-fest.
July 27th, 2007 at 11:06 amThe Left Hates Our Troops sez:
“Fish hunt”? Did you try to say “witch hunt” and “fishing expedition”, and get confused? Coming from someone whose very nick is a demonstrably false, thoroughly debunked reichwing talking point, I can believe it.
Fair enough…we can handle all that next…as soon as we take care of all this treasonous activity in the White House.
July 27th, 2007 at 11:10 amjt, that’s a bunk argument.
moore (whom i’m not exactly a fan of, btw) isn’t advocating socialism. there’s a simple premise here that you seem to miss – a society as wealthy as ours should be able to take care of itself, especially the millions who can’t afford insurance. i’m sure you think all those people are just deadbeats who don’t want to work, but that’s far from the truth.
adequate healthcare shouldn’t be only for those who can afford it. our society is in sad shape if we leave people sick and dying with no options.
July 27th, 2007 at 11:12 amIt’s funny, even GOPers should be able to see how stupid it is for BushCo to pursue Moore with the result of only inflaming the “problem”. In this case the problem is our have-and-have-not health insurance system. I can’t bring myself to actually call this a health-care system.
But for some reason GOPers can’t seem to apply the same logic to BushCo in Iraq and Bin Laden. If you read much on Bin Laden you’ll see that BushCo is absolutely proving his every criticism of America. BushCo is fanning the flames of US hatred around the world in and out of the Muslim community. Perhaps best of all, from OBL’s perspective, BushCo has pretty much refused to kill or capture him. Everyday he’s alive he is not only a star in the terrorist community around the globe, but he makes a ass out of the United States for no other reason than he is alive.
When given a choice, when making a decision, the Decider will always make the wrong decision. You can take that to the bank.
July 27th, 2007 at 11:12 am#52 you shall shortly find out otherwise…then again there are STILL peeps in russia that LOVE stalin.
Comment by bobh — July 27, 2007 @ 10:40 am
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What? You’re saying that your from an Islamic ex-Soviet nation that hates America?
Comment by Mr. President — July 27, 2007 @ 10:45 am
Dude. Seriously. First you say that Saudis aren’t muslims, and now you’re saying that Russians are?
July 27th, 2007 at 11:14 am#62 – Yikes
Thanks for that, Yikes.
SICKO hasn’t come to my great red state, so I haven’t seen it — or I might have known that.
Pretty sad state of affairs when 9/11 workers have to go to such lengths.
July 27th, 2007 at 11:14 amyes, bring on the witching expedition! get rid of all the corrupt bastards, democrat or republican.
July 27th, 2007 at 11:15 amMoore is such a fat-@ss that the taxpayers will end up paying for his healthcare (not that he couldn’t do anything about it, like eating less and exercising more). So, he wants you to pay for his movie and he for his healthcare. Does that sound fair to you?…
He’s too busy counting his movie ticket receipts and laughing all the way to bank…
July 27th, 2007 at 11:15 amDude. Seriously. First you say that Saudis aren’t muslims, and now you’re saying that Russians are?
Comment by Luis M — July 27, 2007 @ 11:14 am
What do you expect from someone who thinks slavery is good because it saves money?
July 27th, 2007 at 11:19 amYes, Bush is a criminal, and yes, he is the enemy of all true Americans. Not the sniveling, piss soaked, cumchewing trolls, who are not Americans. Anyone who is so short of self esteem that they have to suck up to a father figure, can’t be called a true American.
But the pathetic little pukes will still support their God Bush to the end.
We will get through this black period, and the silver lining will be the demise of the Repugnicunt Party.
July 27th, 2007 at 11:20 amWouldn’t a subpoena be a public record?
July 27th, 2007 at 11:21 amHe’s too busy counting his movie ticket receipts and laughing all the way to bank…
Comment by JT — July 27, 2007 @ 11:15 am
As opposed to Bush, Cheney and pals counting their buckets of oil money and laughing behind your back? Yeah JT, Moore is waaaaaay worse.
July 27th, 2007 at 11:23 amI say lets drive the conservatives into the ocean, Clinton/Moore ‘08
ROFL
July 27th, 2007 at 11:25 amAll the more attention for his flick. Thanks Bushies!
July 27th, 2007 at 11:29 amDoes Cheney or Bush hold any stock in the production company of Moore’s films because Kelso and others are spot on. This is free advertising.
July 27th, 2007 at 11:34 amclaim citizen privilege and don’t show up
July 27th, 2007 at 11:35 amJT has demonstrated a profound misunderstanding of (1) what Moore is proposing; and (2) the broader system of socialism.
JT, can you show me ONE example of a proposed health care policy where the system is FREE? Or, ONE example in any other country in the world where the system is FREE? Be sure to consider that payments to or from the government would negate the concept of FREE.
I’ll wait. and wait.
July 27th, 2007 at 11:37 amad hominem
1. appealing to one’s prejudices, emotions, or special interests rather than to one’s intellect or reason.
2. attacking an opponent’s character rather than answering his argument.
The above is thanks to dictionary.reference.com. I had to look this up the other day and am I glad i did. It seems this is a GOPer speciality, ad hominem attacks. I’d bet this is chapter one in the Rove playbook.
GOPers, please deal with Moore’s arguments, deal with his facts, deal with our FUBAR health insurance system why don’t you? I wouldn’t care if Bush and Kennedy came together to craft the toughest drunk driving law in the nation. If it saves thousands of lives a year then I’m all for it. Yes, it would be easy to criticize them both as drunks, but I’d rather deal with how to effectively such a law might save American lives.
Although it can be fun to get side tracked in the fact that Moore has short comings and is unquestionably an unhealthy fat man, I am far less concerned with his life expectancy than with the MILLIONS of American lives that his film is trying to shine a light on, that have almost no access to health care — except as the Decider says, “they just go to the emergency room”. Are you more concerned about Mr. Moore or about millions of Americans?
You trolls are so silly. You guys and gals should aways claim the 5th because every time you open your mouth you prove our argument.
July 27th, 2007 at 11:38 amYikes…
You’re such an idiot. I never said he was worse than Bush, et al. Don’t try to put words in other people’s posts that were never there. Typical lefty b.s.
July 27th, 2007 at 11:39 amBush has vowed to deny 4.1 million kids access to health care because;
1 million of the kids under the plan have health insurance that their parents are paying for and that will take money from the insurance industry.
This administration is about business and nothing else. They serve only the corporate “citizenry”.
This is a treason of policy and MUST NOT be tolerated any longer!!
July 27th, 2007 at 11:47 am#67 well, yikes, castro also let the soviet union build missile silos on his island…there was this little thing called the cuban missile crisis…
Comment by lonesomerobot — July 27, 2007 @ 10:50 am
Curiously, the USA has thousands of nuclear missiles that can reach Cuba…
July 27th, 2007 at 11:50 amMoore wants socialized medicine, so why not let people see his movie for free?…
Oh, that’s right, Moore is really a capitalist who is using people’s fears about health insurance to cash in.
All you supporters of Moore are dupes.
Comment by JT — July 27, 2007 @ 11:03 am
And your idea that social=Socialism=for free comes exactly from?
July 27th, 2007 at 11:51 amShit. Sorry about that…
See you on the boat then… DONT GET BOUGHT WILLINGLY!
-Wilfred L. Guerin
July 27th, 2007 at 11:52 amWilfredGuerin@gmail.com
aim/msn/yp/gt/etc “WilfredGuerin”
Moore knows how to handle the Bush Regime goons, so he will be OK.
July 27th, 2007 at 11:52 amput fat boy in prison
July 27th, 2007 at 11:54 amYea sign me up for Canadian health care where I can wait 6 months to 2 years for major surgery.
Mikey go have another double cheese burger w/fries and a supersized soda.
July 27th, 2007 at 11:54 amHey Michael,
Tell them you will be happy to show up right after Rove, Meirs and Gonzo show up and tell us anything that remotely resembles the truth and/or is relevant to the questions being asked.
That aside, the movie Sicko is an outstanding movie. Hopefully it will wake up America to the second most important domestic issues facing the U.S.
The first being secure, accurate, verifiable elections without DRE touch-screen voting machines. Remember, he who casts the votes decides nothing, he who COUNTS the votes decides everything – Josef Stalin!
July 27th, 2007 at 11:56 amYea sign me up for Canadian health care where I can wait 6 months to 2 years for major surgery.
Comment by Flaco — July 27, 2007 @ 11:54 am
Would this be elective surgery or critically needed surgery? Oh and your source? Why do you believe Canadadians are healtheir overall than Americans or do believe this to be an untrue statement?
July 27th, 2007 at 11:57 amFunny thing Flaco, every Canadian I have talked to looks at me funny if I mention a 6 month waiting period. The disinformation spread about every country with a socialized health care system is pretty funny. Perhaps you should actually talk to the people affected by the system, instead of believing the rants written by people like you.
July 27th, 2007 at 11:58 amFurther proof that the White House is manned by out-of-touch dumbasses.
July 27th, 2007 at 12:00 pmHas anyone ever thought what the REAL crisis is?…
Health insurance is used to pool collective risks together and pay for costs that arise from time to time from the collective pool of money.
Health insurance companies are for-profit enterprises. Doctors and nurses and for-profit individuals.
The problem isn’t lack of insurance or the profits of companies, it’s the absurdly high cost of health care itself. We need to make it easier for persons to practice medicine and become doctors and drive down the cost of healthcare.
When healthcare itself becomes more affordable, then we can all afford it. Right now, we are so focused on the cost of health insurance that we’re missing the forest for the trees. When you go to the doctor, do you ask how much a procedure costs? No. You ask whether your health insurance will cover the costs.
Because of this mentality, there is no incentive to drive down healthcare costs. Rather, we get ticked if our insurance doesn’t cover the procedure (or we don’t have insurance at all).
This is all started with medicare. When patients are not directly involved in the market for healthcare, the costs go up and up and up. And all do is moan about the cost of insurance going up, and up…
If you really want to effect change, start with the cost of healthcare itself. Focusing on insurance doesn’t solve the problem, and neither does forcing everyone to pay for a person’s heathcare. We saw this with public housing–if you receive something for free, you don’t respect or take care it and eventually get pissed when it runs down or doesn’t work anymore.
July 27th, 2007 at 12:00 pmYikes…
You’re such an idiot. I never said he was worse than Bush, et al. Don’t try to put words in other people’s posts that were never there. Typical lefty b.s.
Comment by JT — July 27, 2007 @ 11:39 am
What the hell is the point of your post then? Is it typical righty b.s.? What’s Moore’s health have to do with it? Who is allowed to make money JT? I’d call you an idiot but I’m afraid your not worth it.
Talk about being duped!
July 27th, 2007 at 12:00 pmput fat boy in prison
Comment by crimedog — July 27, 2007 @ 11:54 am
why?
July 27th, 2007 at 12:01 pmOops that last comment was from me. I posted a “Tony Snow” comment yesterday and forgot to change back to my normal handle. Sorry folks.
July 27th, 2007 at 12:01 pmFlaco,
“Yea sign me up for Canadian health care where I can wait 6 months to 2 years for major surgery.”
If this is true, Why aren’t the Canadians pissed about their system like Americans are pissed about their’s? Why do they have better results from their system than we do? Why aren’t they dropping dead up there if it’s so bad? Could it be because they see what a failure a privatized system is?
July 27th, 2007 at 12:03 pmFirst Chimpy refuses to sign a bill extending insurance for children, now he and his Fourth Reich administration have supoenaed him just because he took a bunch of ill 9/11 rescue workers to get them medical care.
Nice job Chimpy. If Michael claims executive privilege and refuses to participate in your monkey show, does that mean you’ll get the law on him?
July 27th, 2007 at 12:03 pmBushCo. hates 9/11 rescue workers and victims
July 27th, 2007 at 12:04 pmMM is a money grubbing capitalist leftist pig.
MM hearts money.
Comment by Flaco — July 27, 2007 @ 12:03 pm
Well you should be in love with him then.
July 27th, 2007 at 12:04 pmMM has quietly helped nearly every person who was in need that had a part in any of his documentaries and has expained that he must keep it quiet do to the overwhelming requests for his help. FACT.
July 27th, 2007 at 12:07 pm“Every day we’re paying for health care, yet when we go to access it, it’s just not there,” said Pelton.
July 27th, 2007 at 12:07 pmMM is the people’s hero, conservative or liberal. He is not the hero of the greedy.
July 27th, 2007 at 12:09 pmMM is a money grubbing capitalist leftist pig.
MM hearts money.
Comment by Flaco — July 27, 2007 @ 12:03 pm
Who knows maybe that’s true but I believe you were going to unlighten us all with intelligent responses to the posts asking you to stand up with some clearly sited source to defend your statement that people are going without needed surgeries in Canada due to a failed system. By implication you seem to be suggesting the US system is superior. So lay it down brother and skip the delaying attacks on a “husky” fellow you do not like
July 27th, 2007 at 12:09 pmTo all the trolls who are responding with a straw man argument that Michael Moore is a capitalist pig for charging admission for the film:
Is this the best you can do? It costs money to make a film and distribute it, and the box office is the way the cost is offset. Did you not know this?
Further, Michael Moore has offered more free screenings of his film than most other movie makers. Besides his distributors showing the film for free to critics and journalists (standard procedure for pretty much all movies), MM has shown the film for free to doctors, nurses, and other health care professionals. He has held screenings for the insurance and pharmaceutical industry (although not as many showed up). And he has held free screenings for other groups. He’s entitled to make a living, and it’s not like he’s bilking the public.
Trying to hang a hypocrisy label on him won’t work. Next, please.
July 27th, 2007 at 12:09 pmMM fat poster child for the left/libs!
July 27th, 2007 at 12:09 pm“Every day we’re paying for health care, yet when we go to access it, it’s just not there,†said Pelton.
Comment by Flaco — July 27, 2007 @ 12:07 pm
Works the same way in the US though =P
Hehe, besides Flaco, we don’t have to have the exact same system as the Canadians. I realize you badly need to prove your point, but talking to average Canadians, they love their system, and are able to get the medical care they need, including going to a doctor, before something becomes a catastrophic problem. The US Health Care system is heading for ruination, because of HMO’s and drug companies, and insurance companies. Time to take care of American Citizens.
July 27th, 2007 at 12:10 pmMore publicity equals “Moore” money.
July 27th, 2007 at 12:11 pmMikeys not dumb.
MM is your modern day snake oil salesman.
July 27th, 2007 at 12:13 pmWhat I love about this story is the media’s unquestioning acceptance of the notion of the White House issuing a subpoena.
THE WHITE HOUSE DOESN’T DO THAT, YOU FREAKS!
July 27th, 2007 at 12:14 pmComment by Flaco — July 27, 2007 @ 12:07 pm
From the article you linked:
Raisa Deber, a professor of health policy at the University of Toronto, believes Canada’s system is one of the world’s fairest.
“Canadians are very proud of the fact that if they need care, they will get care,” she said. Of the United States, she said: “I don’t understand how they got to this worship of markets, to the extent that they’re perfectly happy that some people don’t get the health care that they need.”
Canada does not have fully nationalized health care; its doctors are in private practice and send their bills to the government for reimbursement.
“That doctor doesn’t have to worry about how you’re going to pay the bill,” said Deber. “He knows that his bill will be paid, so there’s absolutely nothing to stop any doctor from treating anyone.”
Deber acknowledges problems in the system, but believes most Canadians get the care they need. She said the federal government should attach more strings to its annual lump-sum allocations to the provinces so that tax dollars are better spent on preventive care and improvements in working conditions for health-care professionals.
So, the system is a mixed one and the doctors or hospitals are private and the government pays the bills they send.
July 27th, 2007 at 12:14 pmveritas,
Hi – just read the article posted on you url link about how Bush may react to losing the war in Iraq. Very interesting and frightening. I don’t like to think about Bush’s lack of conscious and his sadistic tendencies because it is so scary.
Thanks for the post.
July 27th, 2007 at 12:14 pmGO Mike!!!! Truth is the kryptonite of the RIGHT! I saw SICKO twice. The second time just for spite to the RIGHT, Take my money MIKE!!!! Smack Down The RIGHT!!!
July 27th, 2007 at 12:15 pmevilspaniard, i totally agree. my response was to the comment that all castro did was toss rich americans out of cuba. the embargo began because american investors and companies were thrown out of cuba, but it certainly continued because castro allied himself with the soviet union.
July 27th, 2007 at 12:15 pm#125 Yes, I know, lonesomerobot, I was only appointing some facts to trolls out here :)
July 27th, 2007 at 12:16 pmCanadian Health Care In Crisis
Free And First-Class — If You Can Wait
An estimated 4 million of Canada’s 33 million people don’t have family physicians and more than 1 million are on waiting lists for treatment, according to the Canadian Medical Association.
We first need to guarantee that everybody has access to quality health care,” she said, “and we just don’t have that.”
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/03/20/health/main681801.shtml?cmp=EM8705
July 27th, 2007 at 12:17 pm“The World Health Organization in 2000 ranked France’s health system as the best, followed by Italy, Spain, Oman and Australia. Canada came in 30th and the United States 37th.”
Thanks for the link, Flaco.
July 27th, 2007 at 12:17 pmGO Mike!!!! Truth is the kryptonite of the RIGHT! I saw SICKO twice. The second time just for spite to the RIGHT, Take my money MIKE!!!! Smack Down The RIGHT!!!
Comment by SUE
July 27th, 2007 at 12:19 pm——————————————————————-
Oh he’ll take your money for sure and turn it into a cheese burger. :)
What’s up, Flaco?!
July 27th, 2007 at 12:19 pmWhat’s up, crimedog?!
heyooooooooo0O0ooooooooooo!
the embargo was and is a bad idea, but let’s not toss any sympathy castro’s way.
the effective means of getting rid of castro would’ve been to attempt to flood the cuban market with american products. castro probably would have resisted, but he wouldn’t have been able to blame america for his country’s isolation. cubans would’ve been able to see that it was castro that was making cuba a pariah nation.
July 27th, 2007 at 12:20 pmMM has your XXL flowered panties in a twist Flako…BWahahhaahahahahaha
July 27th, 2007 at 12:21 pmHeyoooOOOoooOOOOoooooOOOOOOOOooo Mr President.
July 27th, 2007 at 12:21 pmoh, flaco. so you’re saying you have no argument, just insults.
that’s pretty pathetic.
July 27th, 2007 at 12:21 pm#127 An estimated 4 million of Canada’s 33 million people don’t have family physicians and more than 1 million are on waiting lists for treatment, according to the Canadian Medical Association.
Comment by Flaco — July 27, 2007 @ 12:17 pm
Meanwhile, the USA has more people uninsured that population has Canada (46 million, that is, the 16% of the population):
http://www.usatoday.com/money/perfi/insurance/2007-03-14-uninsured-usat_N.htm
July 27th, 2007 at 12:22 pmLooks like the reichwing Bears just don’t dig Mike.
July 27th, 2007 at 12:24 pm“Moore” publicity equals “Moore†money.
Mikeys not dumb just fat.
July 27th, 2007 at 12:25 pmHey imposter! FLACO
July 27th, 2007 at 12:26 pm#137,pathetic comeback used-douchebag Flako..You could teach a 3 year old a thing or two about comebacks…. BVWaahahahahahahahhaahhaaa
July 27th, 2007 at 12:27 pmMM has XXL flowered panties? cool:-)
Comment by Flaco — July 27, 2007 @ 12:23 pm
I think you missed the word “your”. Anyway when your done with the middle school mentality insults, want to get back to a discussion of the status of healthcare in the US. Are you happy with the status quo? Why do you believe we rank so poorly relative to other comparable cuntries (and some with far less resources)? What would you suggest for changes if any?
July 27th, 2007 at 12:27 pmUm, can he claim “Executive Privilege”?
July 27th, 2007 at 12:32 pmHow bout we run a health insurance in a non-profit way, instead of for profit? How about we care about people before money? How about we help each other, not hurt? How about a women in an emergency room getting the care she needs instead of dieing? If you think the US health care system is fine, you are either delusional or just plain stupid, your choice.
July 27th, 2007 at 12:37 pmHow about free condoms/abortions/marijuana for TPers.
Comment by Flaco — July 27, 2007 @ 12:33 pm
Okay that’s a start. Will these services be denied to nonTPer’s in your idealized system? How about the fixed income elderly and indigent? What suggestions do you have here? I also can’t help but notice you avoided almost all the questioned posed. Are you ill informed on the topic and thus avoiding it for fear you will seem shallow?
July 27th, 2007 at 12:41 pmMM should invoke Producer Privilege.
July 27th, 2007 at 12:42 pmKeep filming Mike! I see a sequel to SICKO just begging to be made.
July 27th, 2007 at 12:45 pmHas anyone ever thought what the REAL crisis is?…
Health insurance is used to pool collective risks together and pay for costs that arise from time to time from the collective pool of money.
Health insurance companies are for-profit enterprises. Doctors and nurses are for-profit individuals.
The problem isn’t lack of insurance or the profits of companies, it’s the absurdly high cost of health care itself. We need to make it easier for persons to practice medicine and become doctors and drive down the cost of healthcare.
When healthcare itself becomes more affordable, then we can all access the healthcare system without having to moan about insurance companies. Right now, we are so focused on the cost of health insurance that we’re missing the forest for the trees. When you go to the doctor, do you ask how much a procedure costs? No. You ask whether your health insurance will cover the costs. This is like ignoring the cost of food at the grocery store and hoping your insurance will pick up the tab.
Because of this mentality, there is no incentive to drive down healthcare costs. Rather, we get ticked if our insurance doesn’t cover the procedure (or we don’t have insurance at all).
This is all started with medicare. When patients are not directly involved in the market for healthcare, the costs go up and up and up. And all do is moan about the cost of insurance going up, and up… California’s healthcare crisis is a perfect example.
If you really want to effect change, start with the cost of healthcare itself. Focusing on insurance doesn’t solve the problem, and neither does forcing everyone to pay for a person’s heathcare. We saw this with public housing–if you receive something for free, you don’t respect or take care it and eventually get pissed when it runs down or doesn’t work anymore.
Posting abusive comments about others’ comments don’t work. Get off the Canada bandwagon and worry about fixing the problem here.
July 27th, 2007 at 12:48 pmYou asshats here at TP want the government to provide healthcare?
Good luck fools.
Comment by Flaco — July 27, 2007 @ 12:42 pm
Why do you hate your government? So about that adult dialoque about healthcare reform again. Would you like to give more info as to how a nation should best provide for their citizenry?
July 27th, 2007 at 12:48 pm# You asshats here at TP want the government to provide healthcare?
Good luck fools.
Comment by Flaco — July 27, 2007 @ 12:42 pm
Sure, but only after we get rid of the structural incompetence that hallmarks the Republican Party. Republicans campaign on government can’t work, get elected, then prove it.
July 27th, 2007 at 12:51 pmExample of the wonderful
Canadian government running health care:
————————————————————
“These are not wealthy people; these are people who are in pain,” said Pipes.
Another watershed lawsuit was filed last year against 12 Quebec hospitals on behalf of 10,000 breast-cancer patients in Quebec who had to wait more than eight weeks for radiation therapy during a period dating to October 1997.
One woman went to Turkey for treatment. Another, Johanne Lavoie, was among several sent to the United States. Diagnosed with invasive breast cancer in 1999, she traveled every week with her 5-year-old son to Vermont, a four-hour bus ride.
“It was an inhuman thing to live through,” Lavoie told Toronto’s Globe and Mail
July 27th, 2007 at 12:52 pmGee JT, thanks for reposting the same nonsense, I like how it directly blames medicare, and essentially argues that any sort of government interference in health care is associated with government programs. Who wrote the piece? someone from AIE? An Insurance company exec? Please Canada has far lower healthcare costs then we do including prescription drugs, because they are able to set prices and negotiate them.
July 27th, 2007 at 12:52 pmLove all the comments. I haven’t had this much fun reading in a long time.
A comment to the website for Cuba’s Healthcare posted by Pizza the Hutts — July 27, 2007 @ 10:30 am: Reminds me of photos of Walter Reed Medical Center…
Please see SiCKO – he goes after all politicians for this national atrocity.
July 27th, 2007 at 12:52 pmKrazny, you make alot of assertions without proof. Google medicare and insurance crisis and you my proof. Yours doesn’t exist. I know, because I took the time to do research rather than merely post emotional little diatribes.
July 27th, 2007 at 12:57 pmPut that fattie on a treadmill in prison!
July 27th, 2007 at 12:58 pmPut that fattie on a treadmill in prison!
Comment by m12 — July 27, 2007 @ 12:58 pm
Why?
July 27th, 2007 at 12:59 pmI know, because I took the time to do research rather than merely post emotional little diatribes.
Comment by JT — July 27, 2007 @ 12:57 pm
Could you please cc M12, Flaco, Mr P, etc. Thanks
July 27th, 2007 at 1:01 pmAnother Example of the wonderful
Canadian government running health care:
————————————————————
AP) A letter from the Moncton Hospital to a New Brunswick heart patient in need of an electrocardiogram said the appointment would be in three months. It added: “If the person named on this computer-generated letter is deceased, please accept our sincere apologies.”
The patient wasn’t dead, according to the doctor who showed the letter to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity. But there are many Canadians who claim the long wait for the test and the frigid formality of the letter are indicative of a health system badly in need of emergency care.
July 27th, 2007 at 1:06 pmAnother Example of the wonderful
Canadian government running health care:
————————————————————
AP) A letter from the Moncton Hospital to a New Brunswick heart patient in need of an electrocardiogram said the appointment would be in three months. It added: “If the person named on this computer-generated letter is deceased, please accept our sincere apologies.â€
July 27th, 2007 at 1:06 pmHow bout we run a health insurance in a non-profit way, instead of for profit? How about we care about people before money?
Are you a doctor, Kranzy? Are you a large investor in the medical care industry?
July 27th, 2007 at 1:09 pmComment by Flaco — July 27, 2007 @ 1:06 pm
And you thoughts about the US system are? Try to be specific and cite both pros and cons. If possible try to avoid unsubstantiated beliefs and pronounciations of ideologue as fact. I think people have gotten the point that you do not like the Canadian system.
July 27th, 2007 at 1:11 pmWhy?
Comment by dbadass — July 27, 2007 @ 12:59 pm
His weight loss might save us healthcare costs that we can devote to illegal immigrants as he desires.
July 27th, 2007 at 1:11 pmDon’t worry, Flaco. ‘Universal’ health care will come to the People’s Republic of California, and it will fail miserably.
Then we will be rid of this mess.
July 27th, 2007 at 1:12 pmJust because you don’t have health insurance does not mean you don’t get cared for in this country. Our goverment does pay the bills for those who can’t. The Charity Hospital system was set up for this.
Taking away my right for privitized healthcare, in a capatialist society? Whats next, my home because some poor bastard won’t get off their ass and work. If I own two homes, and thats not fair to the poor, do I give one up for them? People in this country choose not to have health insurance. I know there are some who cannot afford it, but there are many others who can and choose not to. Why are we forced to pay for car insurance but not health insurance? Because there is already free healthcare for the poor!!! It may not be the best, but it’s f**king better than Cubas!!! This country is full of stupid people, and most of them are on here.
July 27th, 2007 at 1:13 pmHis weight loss might save us healthcare costs that we can devote to illegal immigrants as he desires.
Comment by m12 — July 27, 2007 @ 1:11 pm
This is an answer or “humor”? I don’t get it. Seems more like a dodge from the question
July 27th, 2007 at 1:15 pmHow much in taxes is Moore willing to pay for his health care plan? Did he mention a number, by chance?
July 27th, 2007 at 1:17 pmFlaco, if Michael Moore’s run-in with CNN proved anything, it’s that you can’t count on our corporate media to tell the truth about heathcare when they get 10’s of millions in ad money from big pharma and the HMO industry. I don’t trust your CBS report about Canada. CBS has got too much money in the game to be perfectly honest. If Canada’s system were so inferior, one would expect Canadians to covet our system, but that’s not the case. Your examples are largely anecdotal. What you’re saying, and what CBS is evidently saying, is never mind the fact that Canadians have a longer life expectancy and better infant mortality rates, here’s a few horror stories for you to concentrate on. I’m not buying it anymore.
JT, somehow, you’ve come to the conclusion that in our insurance-based healthcare system, insurance is NOT part of the cost of healthcare. Setting aside the complete lack of logic in that assertion, the fact still remains that overhead cost of Medicare, a single-payer system, is 2 to 3%, while overhead in the insurance-based system is 25 to 35%. But there’s another serious flaw in your thinking: a single-payer health plan would offer MORE incentive to cut costs, not left. Since government would be the single payer with tax money, nutrition and preventative medicine would be more important. And, profit-based care often finds that cures hurt profits (diabetes?) because treating the condition is a long-running profit center. This would be over with single-payer. The British system is more efficient and superior to ours at 40% of the cost per capita according to Paul Krugman.
July 27th, 2007 at 1:19 pmIs the treadmill made in China?
July 27th, 2007 at 1:20 pmHow bout we run a health insurance in a non-profit way, instead of for profit? How about we care about people before money?
Are you a doctor, Kranzy? Are you a large investor in the medical care industry?
Comment by m12 — July 27, 2007 @ 1:09 pm
Oh no Krazny you used the “M” word. 12 is going to get all a flutter
July 27th, 2007 at 1:21 pmJohnny Swank: “Taking away my right for privitized healthcare, in a capatialist society?”
Actually, most systems allow anyone to get a private plan if they want to. Single-payer probably doesn’t take away that “right.” And please, don’t act like people don’t have health insurance because they choose not to. That’s just fantasy. And, there’s no need to get hysterical about something unrelated to this like property rights. That’s just a strawman.
July 27th, 2007 at 1:23 pmIs the readmill made in China?
July 27th, 2007 at 1:23 pmBush has vowed to deny 4.1 million kids access to health care because;
1 million of the kids under the plan have health insurance that their parents are paying for and that will take money from the insurance industry.
Too bad Bush has proposed more money for SCHIP for 2008 than the first 42 Presidents gave, combined!
July 27th, 2007 at 1:24 pmInteresting how Subpoenas mean something now. Moore took people for medication in Cuba and they paid the real price for it. Now Moore has a Subpoena from the White House. The White House doesn’t have to obey Subpoenas but Moore does. Gonzales can lie under oath but others go to jail for lying under oath. Libby is guilty as hell yet the White House says his sentence is to excessive so he get a get out of jail card. Who is the United State Laws for only the people the White House sees as done supporters of the Liar-in-Chief. Jimmy Carter went to Cuba and was told by the President he was wrong. Is the US really now in the hands of a Dictator? The movie Sicko showed the regular American who has been destroyed some died because of the Bush policy. For those that think it wont happen to them just remember Bush will veto Children’s Health Care in the US. But the White House will bring chosen children from Iraq to get free treatment. Yes and remember to pay your fair share of taxes but if you don’t you will go to jail. Your tax dollars are needed for what the White House thinks is important. Our troops aren’t important neither is the American people.
July 27th, 2007 at 1:26 pmDepending on American mainstream corporate media for honest information on healthcare is like asking a crack dealer if the stuff is safe. Or, as Upton Sinclair put it, “it’s hard to get a man to agree with something when his paycheck depends on disagreeing.”
July 27th, 2007 at 1:27 pmMichael Moore should decline to respond to the subpoena. After all, the Chimpy administration has previously established that subpoenas need not be heeded.
Comment by TripMaster Monkey — July 27, 2007 @ 9:54 am
It might be the first-ever claim of “executive producer priviledge.”
Sorry if someone made this joke already…
July 27th, 2007 at 1:28 pmYes and remember to pay your fair share of taxes but if you don’t you will go to jail.
Marc Rich didn’t.
July 27th, 2007 at 1:30 pm“Tonight on the Tonight Show, we have a big tub of goo, Michael Moore.”
His movie isn’t doing well at theaters, and has been debunked.
July 27th, 2007 at 1:30 pmWho is going to pay taxes for universal health care, anyway?
July 27th, 2007 at 1:33 pmDon’t worry, Flaco. ‘Universal’ health care will come to the People’s Republic of California, and it will fail miserably.
Then we will be rid of this mess.
Comment by m12 — July 27, 2007 @ 1:12 pm
Doesn’t Ca have one of the largest economies on the planet? I know you have this thing about money so you must think well of CA’s successful choices. How else might this wonder of economics have occurred?
July 27th, 2007 at 1:34 pmThe hysterical anger directed at Michael Moore proves he continues to strike nerves. What exactly has he ever been wrong about? He was way ahead of the curve with “Roger and Me.” I mean closing down American manufacturing HAS been a bit of a problem, right? His main point in Bowling was that we were a fear based society, fear being stoked by mainstream media, and that accounted for our high murder rate, not the per capita amount of guns we own – come on, that’s completely right on. He was spot on with Farehhiet 911 – the war in Iraq WAS built on lies. Hussein DIDN’T have WMD’s and WASN’T involved with the 9-11 attack; the war HAS been a boom for war profiteering. And, he’s completely right on with healthcare. We DO spend more than any other society for a product which is only 37th in quality and we’re the only society in the industrialized world which doesn’t treat healthcare as a right.
So, what do conservatives have to say about him: “He’s fat.”
July 27th, 2007 at 1:34 pmmuckdog: “His movie isn’t doing well at theaters, and has been debunked.”
There has been no legitimate debunking and the movie is already #4 all-time in revenue for a documentary, so I think you need to check your informational sources.
July 27th, 2007 at 1:36 pmWho is going to pay taxes for universal health care, anyway?
Comment by m12 — July 27, 2007 @ 1:33 pm
Only those whose values require that all shall benefit in any humane and righteous social grouping.
July 27th, 2007 at 1:37 pmUh, yes it has Ret. Col., sir. Debunked and biotch slapped.
Shouldn’t be classified as a propaganda film instead of a documentary?
July 27th, 2007 at 1:38 pmWe are fat, stupid, and lazy! Just look at Michael Moore and thats what the average man is going to like at fifty. Scary for you ladies, but most of you are going to look like Rosie at fifty, scary.
When you get shot, the hospital does not ask if you have insurance. When your in a bad auto accident, the hospital does not ask if you have insurance. Every major city has a Charity Hospital system. Rural communities have smaller versions of them. Free for all, paid for by you and me. It’s not the best, but it’s better than ninety five percent of the world. Our private healthcare is the best in the world. Why? Because the goverment is not involved. Go to your local DMV or next city council meeting and see if you like the way that is run, then imagine the headaches of you will have to endure when you or your child is sick.
One other thing. When most people get the sniffles, they go buy something for it at the drug store. If it gets worse they then go see a doctor. Stupid people will go see the doctor first, and then go get the same medicine at the drug store. It ties up the system and the cost would be draining. If you think S.S. is bad now, what do you think would happen to healthcare? Wake up!!!
July 27th, 2007 at 1:39 pmToo bad Bush has proposed more money for SCHIP for 2008 than the first 42 Presidents gave, combined!
Comment by m12 — July 27, 2007 @ 1:24 pm
This is like saying that Queen Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom has watched more hours of television than all other British monarchs combined. The program didn’t begin until 1997. Come up with a better sound bite! Sheesh!
July 27th, 2007 at 1:39 pmBy the way, Moore-haters, Moore has already explained that during the making of the film, he came to feel it was hypocritical of him to continue to be out of shape and he began dieting. So far, he has lost over 35 pounds. I wish him well and hope he is able to continue his diet for his own good.
July 27th, 2007 at 1:41 pmUh, yes it has Ret. Col., sir. Debunked and biotch slapped.
Shouldn’t be classified as a propaganda film instead of a documentary?
Comment by muckdog — July 27, 2007 @ 1:38 pm
You haven’t cited any support for your contention. Till then I’ll stick with the Ret. Col. Your “points” seem only driven by denial and anger towards that which you agree not with.
July 27th, 2007 at 1:43 pmWho is going to pay taxes for universal health care, anyway?
Comment by m12 — July 27, 2007 @ 1:33 pm
If everybody who is now paying for health insurance paid that same amount in extra taxes instead, and if every employer who is paying for health insurance for their employees paid that same amount in extra taxes instead, we would have MORE than enough money. Why? Nobody taking a profit, no bloated advertising budgets, no money to lobbyists, etc.
July 27th, 2007 at 1:45 pmDoesn’t Ca have one of the largest economies on the planet? I know you have this thing about money so you must think well of CA’s successful choices. How else might this wonder of economics have occurred?
My point exactly. If you think Universal Health Care can work in the United States, show us in California!
July 27th, 2007 at 1:45 pmThis is like saying that Queen Elizabeth II of the United Kingdom has watched more hours of television than all other British monarchs combined. The program didn’t begin until 1997. Come up with a better sound bite! Sheesh!
And whose fault is that? The Democratic Congresses, Carter, and Clinton!
July 27th, 2007 at 1:45 pmMichael Moore owns stock in Halliburton and Exxon. That says it all. Fools!!!
July 27th, 2007 at 1:47 pmFlaco,
You might be more credible if you weren’t using 10 year old quotes and hit pieces. Canada dramatically increased it’s funding to deal with the issues you cite years ago. You forgot the most important part of your smear though Flaco. Those complaints are from some of the most rural areas of Canada where the government is required to give care.
You might want to compare that to rural america where there is no requirement for doctors nor what equipment they must have available to treat patients. Your whole complaint is that they don’t have enough equipment in rural canada – compared to NO equipment in the rural US?
Well in your case – you get the healthcare system you deserve…
July 27th, 2007 at 1:47 pmIf everybody who is now paying for health insurance paid that same amount in extra taxes instead, and if every employer who is paying for health insurance for their employees paid that same amount in extra taxes instead, we would have MORE than enough money.
Yeah, and if pigs could fly, I could have fresh bacon every morning delivered to my doorstep.
Who exactly is going to do such a thing?
July 27th, 2007 at 1:48 pmQuestion: Does everyone blogging here – “have a job”? If you do, kudos to you; you are helping to support those less fortunate.
If you do not; perhaps now is the time to start looking for one, so we can stop paying for your health care… You obviously have the money (and skill sets) to support your online habits.
July 27th, 2007 at 1:48 pmAnd whose fault is that? The Democratic Congresses, Carter, and Clinton!
Comment by m12 — July 27, 2007 @ 1:45 pm
OK — usually I can parse your declarations down to the point you are trying to make (which is usually a right-wing talking point already done to death), but this one has me stumped. Explain, please?
July 27th, 2007 at 1:48 pmMy point exactly. If you think Universal Health Care can work in the United States, show us in California!
Comment by m12 — July 27, 2007 @ 1:45 pm
No you made no point. Instead you stated as fact that universal healthcare was destined to failure. My point is that you are tacitly implying that CA is some wacko “left” place yet their ideas have clearly been successful overall. CA has led the nation on many issues and proven the rest us us to be behind with regard to forward thinking. Obviously everything isn’t perfect but overall things seen okay
July 27th, 2007 at 1:48 pmOnly those whose values require that all shall benefit in any humane and righteous social grouping.
Which means your UHC program is completely sunk.
July 27th, 2007 at 1:49 pmMy point is that you are tacitly implying that CA is some wacko “left†place yet their ideas have clearly been successful overall.
No, I am not implying that at all.
CA has led the nation on many issues and proven the rest us us to be behind with regard to forward thinking.
So let them establish their own UHC system. What’s the problem, exactly?
July 27th, 2007 at 1:51 pmOK — usually I can parse your declarations down to the point you are trying to make (which is usually a right-wing talking point already done to death), but this one has me stumped. Explain, please?
If SCHIP is so great, why did it take 5 years for Clinton to enact it?
July 27th, 2007 at 1:52 pmmuckdog: “Uh, yes it has Ret. Col., sir. Debunked and biotch slapped.”
Uh, muckdog, I’m sure you can supply us with this legitimate debunking; links, quotations, citations, you know, facts. I’m not about to just take your word for it. Let’s see the info. If it stands up to scrutiny, you win.
Johnny Swank, it could be that part of the reason we ARE fat is that we DON’T have a universal healthcare system. After all, when you travel around Europe where everyone gets lifelong healthcare as a right, people look a lot more in shape. When a given society makes a commitment to healthcare as a right, there is a clear incentive to educate the people of that society on health.
July 27th, 2007 at 1:54 pmWhich means your UHC program is completely sunk.
Comment by m12 — July 27, 2007 @ 1:49 pm
Do you lack faith in the compassion of others or only your own? Sorry but no time to get back to you on the CA deal. I have to hit work. Did you not state it was destined to fail if they did?
July 27th, 2007 at 1:54 pmJohnny Swank: “Michael Moore owns stock in Halliburton and Exxon. That says it all. Fools!!!”
Moore has already explained this silly conservative talking point. As a stockholder, he gets all the corporate information he needs to keep track of what these and other companies are up to. Next phony talking point, please.
July 27th, 2007 at 1:56 pmIf you do not (have a job); perhaps now is the time to start looking for one, so we can stop paying for your health care… You obviously have the money (and skill sets) to support your online habits.
Comment by Pizza the Hutts “Two” — July 27, 2007 @ 1:48 pm
I suspect you are too young to have entered the job market yet — if you were part of the work force, you would understand that not all jobs provide employer-paid insurance. And the number of employers who provide it dwindles every year, because the cost of insurance is rising.
Many employers provide health insurance where they (the employer) pay part of the premium and the employee pays the rest. Other employers provide access to the insurance, but the premium comes completely out of the employee’s pocket. And many employers (particularly small businesses) can’t afford to provide health insurance at all.
People who are self-employed have to pay for their own insurance.
People who have been laid off (yes, that happens a lot out here in the real world) need to start all over with insurance when they get another job, especially if their new employer offers insurance with a different company from their old employer. And if the employee has any kind of pre-existing condition, that may preclude them from coverage.
These are but a few of the cracks in the current “system” where employers are presumed to be the providers of health insurance.
July 27th, 2007 at 1:57 pmBy the way, the proposed California single-payer plan will be veto’d by Swartzenegger, so arguing about it is irrelevant at this point. If, by some miracle, Arnold allows it to become law, we can talk.
July 27th, 2007 at 1:58 pmMore Taxes Molly? What a novel idea. How about more taxes so everyone can eat. How about more taxes so everyone can live. How about more taxes so everyone can live for free, no work for anybody. Just sit back and let someone else take care of it for us. We’ll let the rich keep working and paying the majority of taxes (5 percent of the population pays for 85 percent of the taxes). We’ll use the money from taxes paid for by the lottery system, that way the poor can actually contribute. We are taxed to death. The only way we are going to pay for this is to severely cut the money spent on defense. That is how Canada and Europe manage to do it. They have no armies. They spend almost nothing on defense. They can do this because they know we will protect them. If they had to take care of themselves, they wouldn’t have the money.
July 27th, 2007 at 1:59 pmThe longer version of the video can be seen here:
VIDEO
July 27th, 2007 at 1:59 pmhttp://beta.redlasso.com/Community/ClipPlayer.aspx?i=53871e34-7774-4410-a983-237a85d0abef
m12: “If SCHIP is so great, why did it take 5 years for Clinton to enact it?”
Let’s keep in mind that for the last 4 of those years, Clinton was trying to work with a Republican congress.
July 27th, 2007 at 2:01 pmMoore has already explained this silly conservative talking point. As a stockholder, he gets all the corporate information he needs to keep track of what these and other companies are up to. Next phony talking point, please.
Wow, he’ really bought you all off! You don’t need 2000 shares in Haliburton to get that info.
July 27th, 2007 at 2:01 pmI wonder if the Bush Administration also served Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger with a subpoena for his past trips to Cuba to attend cigar festivals?
July 27th, 2007 at 2:02 pmJohnny Swank: “We are taxed to death.”
No, we’re not. We have the lowest income tax rates of any industrialized nation on the planet. I’ve been to Europe on business many times, and the funny thing is that I’ve never heard anyone complain about taxes there – and I’m dealing with businessmen. I think it’s because they get a lot for their taxes.
July 27th, 2007 at 2:03 pm…track of what these and other companies are up to. Next phony talking point, please.
Comment by Ret. Col. Jack Ripper
——————————————–
Yea that’s what he is telling you and you buy it.
July 27th, 2007 at 2:04 pmIf SCHIP is so great, why did it take 5 years for Clinton to enact it?
Comment by m12 — July 27, 2007 @ 1:52 pm
Congratulations! You win the award for the dumbest question in any TP post today!
July 27th, 2007 at 2:04 pmLet’s keep in mind that for the last 4 of those years, Clinton was trying to work with a Republican congress.
And let’s not forget that for the first 2 years of his term, Clinton was trying to work with a highly Democratic Congress.
July 27th, 2007 at 2:04 pmYes, Paul, and were are those subpoenas to Fred Thompson to ask him how he gets his Cuban cigars. They’re illegal, right. What’s he doing with them. Call the Justice Department.
July 27th, 2007 at 2:04 pmJust because you don’t have health insurance does not mean you don’t get cared for in this country. Our goverment does pay the bills for those who can’t. The Charity Hospital system was set up for this.
Taking away my right for privitized healthcare, in a capatialist society? Whats next, my home because some poor bastard won’t get off their ass and work. If I own two homes, and thats not fair to the poor, do I give one up for them? People in this country choose not to have health insurance. I know there are some who cannot afford it, but there are many others who can and choose not to. Why are we forced to pay for car insurance but not health insurance? Because there is already free healthcare for the poor!!! It may not be the best, but it’s f**king better than Cubas!!! This country is full of stupid people, and most of them are on here.
Comment by Johnny Swank — July 27, 2007 @ 1:13 pm
You are talking about the poor, you dumb shit. The people who are in trouble would be middle class. The rich and the poor don’t have a problem. The USA is behind in life expectancy than most civilized countries, and running neck and neck with Cuba.
July 27th, 2007 at 2:05 pmEurope is calling Jack to a better life…
July 27th, 2007 at 2:05 pmI love Cuba!
July 27th, 2007 at 2:06 pmClinton horniest Pres. alive.
July 27th, 2007 at 2:07 pmPeople of the USA let us defend our Brother,and his actions concerning these9-11 workers, who were refused Medical Help!
July 27th, 2007 at 2:08 pmRe:
#85 – Comment by Yikes: As opposed to Bush, Cheney and pals counting their buckets of oil money and laughing behind your back? Yeah JT, Moore is waaaaaay worse.
#91 – Response by JT: You’re such an idiot. I never said he was worse than Bush, et al. Don’t try to put words in other people’s posts that were never there. Typical lefty b.s.
Oh! So, JT, then you agree that Bush and his (and his cronies’) oil billions is worse than Moore and his ticket receipts?!
I don’t think Yikes was putting words in your mouth, JT, just noting a little hypocrisy in your seeming blind support for Bush and all things Bush while attacking Michael Moore and his documentary.
Oh, and, JT — based on the tenor and quality of the comments that you post here at TP, you shouldn’t be tossing around that “idiot” aspersion so freely (I would say “liberally” but you might take offence).
July 27th, 2007 at 2:09 pmFlaco: “Europe is calling Jack to a better life…”
That’s absolutely right, Flaco. We could learn a few things from Europe. Nobody there worries about being bankrupt by a medical condition. Nobody worries that a qualified son or daughter won’t be able to go to college. Nobody worries about their infirm parents not getting care. I want our citizens to enjoy that kind of society. I think we deserve it. Why don’t you?
July 27th, 2007 at 2:09 pmComment by Johnny Swank — July 27, 2007 @ 1:59 pm
You complain about being “taxed to death”, but you apparently have NO problem being “health insurance premiumed to death”.
My suggestion (a very simple one) would take NO more money out of the pockets of people and businesses than is coming out now, and would probably be less. And your point about taking money away from defense is bewildering, at best (although if we got out of Iraq and quit pouring money there — ah, but that’s another thread).
If you would bother to READ my post instead of going into a knee-jerk rant about “more taxes”, you would understand.
July 27th, 2007 at 2:12 pmComment by missmolly — July 27, 2007 @ 2:04 pm
Laughably pathetic, missmolly. Good day to you!
July 27th, 2007 at 2:12 pmJohnny, Hong Kong and Singapore have lower tax burdens than we do.
Not coincidentally, they are thriving!
July 27th, 2007 at 2:14 pmJack The Ripper, he still owns stock in Halliburton and Exxon. A lot of it at one time. “He gets all the corporate information so he can track whats going on”? How about just picking up The Wall Street Journal you dumd ass. Or how about picking up a phone and calling a broker? If he owned one share of Halliburton, one share, he would get an annual report from them detailing the same information that a share holder holding ten thousand shares would get. Weak Weak Weak!!!
By the way, he still owns stock in Halliburton. You have been fooled by a very convincing man. I know it may be hard to swallow, but don’t feel bad. He is very good at that. Your not the first and won’t be the last.
July 27th, 2007 at 2:15 pmMM = Snake Oil Salesman I told you.
July 27th, 2007 at 2:17 pm#226 Utopia wowowowowow
July 27th, 2007 at 2:17 pmJohnny, Hong Kong and Singapore have lower tax burdens than we do.
Not coincidentally, they are thriving!
Comment by m12 — July 27, 2007 @ 2:14 pm
Most developed nations have higher tax burdens and they have been doing okay for longer than we have been a nation. Plus they have better culture, cuisine, and beer to boot.
July 27th, 2007 at 2:18 pmSomehow conservatives can’t get it through their heads that a single-payer plan would make the government the “middle-man” for our healthcare instead of the insurance industry being the “middle-man.” Why they want a profit-based middle-man instead of a non-profit-based middle-man is anyone’s guess. The profit-based middleman is there to make profit. The non-profit-based middleman is there to deliver the service. What is it about that that is so hard to understand?
July 27th, 2007 at 2:20 pmBy the way, he still owns stock in Halliburton. You have been fooled by a very convincing man. I know it may be hard to swallow, but don’t feel bad. He is very good at that. Your not the first and won’t be the last.
Comment by Johnny Swank — July 27, 2007 @ 2:15 pm
So what? So what if he owns stock in Halliburton and ExxonMobil? This obviously does not affect how he portrays the companies in his movies and public appearances. He can invest his personal money wherever the hell he wants.
July 27th, 2007 at 2:22 pmWe need to stick together USA, let’s us not fight one another over good…let’s fight against what is Wrong!
July 27th, 2007 at 2:25 pmJohnny Swank, setting aside the argument about Moore’s holding stock, what exactly does his stockholding have to do with the merits of his argument that our healthcare system is out of wack?
m12: “Johnny, Hong Kong and Singapore have lower tax burdens than we do.
Not coincidentally, they are thriving!”
Hong Kong, is now part of China and gets lots of government money from Bejing. Singapore makes a lot off of corporate taxes. Both offer universal healthcare to their citizens so I’m really not sure what point you’re making. Our income tax rates are lower than all of Europe, Japan and Australia.
July 27th, 2007 at 2:25 pmEconomic growth is strongest in a year
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070727/ap_on_bi_go_ec_fi/economy;_ylt=Alxh9wJDd6n4Hp4eA7G96MOs0NUE
WASHINGTON – The economy snapped out of a lethargic spell and grew at a 3.4 percent pace in the second quarter, the strongest showing in more than a year. A revival in business spending was a main force behind the energized performance.
The recession is coming!
The recession is coming!
The recession is coming!
What is that, 24 straight quarters of GDP growth?
July 27th, 2007 at 2:25 pmAlright M12 good news!
July 27th, 2007 at 2:29 pmM-12, They spend their tax dollars wisely! If we could ever do so, we would thrive even more.
Molly, I did read your idea, and it still sucks. My point about defense spending is right on. If we cut the amount we spend every year on defense in half, we could easily pay for universal healthcare and many other programs. But by doing so, we would weaken our ability to protect ourselves and severely limit helping our friends. They would have to stop spending so much money on healthcare and unemployment benefits, and begin restoring their defeenses so they could protect themselves. Canada and Europe spend virtually nothing on defending their countries. They choose to do so because they know we will help them when needed. I know that might be hard for you to stomach, but it’s the truth. Your liberal buddies are teaching you well.
July 27th, 2007 at 2:30 pmJohnny Swank, who exactly are western European countries supposed to be defending themselves from? What armies are amassing on their borders? The Cold War is over. Why haven’t we cut our defense spending to levels less than was needed to protect us from a Communist threat which no longer exists. Everyone should know by now that terrorism is an issue requiring a combination of law enforcement and quick-strick special forces military action. We don’t really have to cut defense spending to give our citizens universal healthcare, but you beg the question – why HAVEN’T we cut defense spending?
July 27th, 2007 at 2:39 pmFlaco, is there any way to get you to understand that your personal attacks on Michael Moore are irrelevant?
July 27th, 2007 at 2:40 pmExactly!
July 27th, 2007 at 2:42 pmMost developed nations have higher tax burdens and they have been doing okay for longer than we have been a nation. Plus they have better culture, cuisine, and beer to boot.
And we have better cars, entertainment, and military, larger houses, and larger incomes.
July 27th, 2007 at 2:45 pmWhy they want a profit-based middle-man instead of a non-profit-based middle-man is anyone’s guess. The profit-based middleman is there to make profit. The non-profit-based middleman is there to deliver the service.
Maybe because this non profit based middleman already takes too much of my money!
July 27th, 2007 at 2:46 pmMM is a hypocrite, liar, scammer, war profiteering, cheese burger eatin’, capitalist pig, xxl carbon footprint, nice guy.
Bush is a LIAR, WAR CRIMINAL, MURDERER coxucker PUNK TRAITOR to the USA.
And an EVIL “human” being…
July 27th, 2007 at 2:48 pmm12: “And we have better cars, entertainment, and military, larger houses, and larger incomes.”
I’ll give you “entertainment, and military, larger houses.” But we definitely don’t make better cars and income disparity between working classes and the rich is greater than any other industrialized society, greater than at any time since the 20’s. I’m not sure what benefit it is to the average American that we have a better military and larger houses?? Whatever. Hey, if you want to put on the rose-colored glasses, have at it and put on a happy face.
July 27th, 2007 at 2:49 pmm12: “Maybe because this non profit based middleman already takes too much of my money!”
The point is not how much money the government takes – it’s what do you get for your money. If a tax rate hike is smaller than the amount you currently pay an HMO or a PPO, it’s a net gain for you. And, what is the value of never again having to worry about being bankrupted by a medical condition. Currently, this is the biggest single reason why people have to go into bankruptcy.
July 27th, 2007 at 2:55 pmComment by Johnny Swank — July 27, 2007 @ 2:30 pm
Responding to your post regarding our defense program and those of other countries would be very off-topic in this thread, so I won’t. I agree that we currently spend far more on defense than a UHC program would cost, but that’s not the only place the money has to come from.
You haven’t adequately explained why paying extra taxes instead of paying MORE money in health insurance premiums “sucks”.
July 27th, 2007 at 2:55 pmJack Ripper, Our federal income taxes are lower than those countries. But what you fail to mention is our state tax, local tax, sales tax, property tax, death tax, and all of the other insane taxes, are much higher, on top of having to pay federal income tax. Please use common sense.
Toasterhead, Jack Ripper accused me of “Right wing talking points”. I address the fact that you don’t need to buy stock in a company to know their dealings. It’s not a talking point, it’s a fact! Michael Moore attacked Halliburton in his last movie for a lot of things. Then he is shown to own these same stocks. Now “He can invest his personal money wherever the hell he wants!” Jack Ripper’s comment was debunked by me, and now it’s ok for M.M. to own all the Halliburton stock he wants. Great argument. You lose the argument and then say it’s alright to own whatever he wants. He is a HYPOCRITE and so are YOU!!!!! I will however save this line of yours and post it on the next thread that reads, “Halliburton is Corrupt!!” I’m sure you will attack them and say George W. Bush is evil because of Halliburton. Since you defend M.M. for attacking them and then profiting off of them, you shouldn’t have a problem with Halliburton in the future.
July 27th, 2007 at 3:04 pmMoore should rebuff the subpoena, claiming “Director’s privilege.” Then send somebody like Stephen Colbert to argue how it’s been around forever, ever since they were making movies of George Washington.
It’s in the Constitution, I swear.
July 27th, 2007 at 3:17 pmMissmolly, if it were that easy, every problem in the universe could be solved with”Pay more taxes”. At some point you have to say uncle. The money is being transfered from one form of payment to another, right. That means somebody is still paying for whats not being covered:, it still means you and me. Companies don’t pay taxes Molly, they adjust that cost to us, the consumer. We end up paying for it, one way or the other. Please read “Capitialism and Freedom” by Milton Friedman. It will open your eyes to basic economics.
July 27th, 2007 at 3:17 pmJack Ripper, why do you think we still have bases all over the world? Our presence is enough of a deterent for other foreign nations contemplating harm to them. I know right now there are none, I know the cold war is over, but you never know when the ugliness of man will show itself again. History does repeat itself. If you think China is an ally, you are mistaken my friend. We spend this money because of freedom, and because we can.
July 27th, 2007 at 3:26 pmHey I have an idea. If Bush heeds the subpoenas by Congress, Moore will answer his.
July 27th, 2007 at 3:32 pmHow do you have sex with Michael Moore? Roll him in money and go for the wet spot!!!!
July 27th, 2007 at 3:42 pmComment by Johnny Swank — July 27, 2007 @ 3:17 pm
You’re still misunderstanding my point. What you pay in extra taxes would be more than offset by your NOT having to pay health insurance premiums.
Let’s see if I can put this as some sort of example. Let’s say you pay $200 a month in health care premiums. And with UHC, you wouldn’t have to pay that anymore, but you might have to pay $100 a month in extra taxes. Do you really hate taxes so much that you would prefer to pay more money out of your pocket for your health insurance?
And let’s not forget the employer. Let’s say that Amalgamated Widget, Inc. pays $5,000,000 per fiscal quarter on health insurance for their employees. Of course, they have to adjust the price of their widgets to make up for that. But with UHC, they no longer have to pay $5 million to an insurance company but they do have to pony up $3 million more in taxes. They still get to keep $2 million per quarter they didn’t have before — which they can use to lower the price of their widgets, hire more people, or whatever.
Yes, I understand that raising taxes isn’t always a practical solution. But in this case, the bleeding caused by greater taxes would be less than the massive hemorrhaging caused by insane insurance costs from for-profit providers.
An NBC/WSJ poll earlier this year asked Americans if they agreed with the following statement: “I would be willing to pay higher taxes so that everyone can have health insurance.” 53% of Americans said YES — and the poll wasn’t even worded to remind them that they would no longer have to pay health insurance premiums if this was the case. One of the few times a majority of Americans has agreed to higher taxes — so this must be important to them.
July 27th, 2007 at 3:58 pmWell, this post leads the league for dumbass wingnuts without brains or patriotism. Not a single argument mounted by any rightie has any facts or value behind it, just KKKarl’s talking points. The next election will turn the Republican Party into the garbage it so rightly deserves, then we can flush it.
July 27th, 2007 at 4:00 pmThe irony here is overwhelming. The hubris is dumbfounding.
Congress issues subpoenas to the Bush administration for things like illegal domestic wiretaps, outing a CIA agent to help sell an illegal invasion and lying under oath.
And the Bush administration refuses to even honor the subpoenas.
But the Bush administration, is issuing a subpoena for a private citizen for taking sick people to Cuba for much needed life saving medical treatment.
The good guys, and the bad guys are easy to distinguish here, and its clear that what we have in the White House, are the bad guys.
July 27th, 2007 at 4:03 pmI don’t know what kind of national haze has clouded the minds of a 3rd of Americans, but you can bet your ass that the history books will teach of Bush as the evil, corrupt man he is, along with his corrupt regime.
These are not good men. They are bad men. And that includes those who lie for them, like Tony Snow. Snow is a filthy liar, and deserves to be in jail.
July 27th, 2007 at 4:07 pmComment by BARTLEBEE — July 27, 2007 @ 4:03 pm
You just don’t get it, do you? Congress has no authority to issue subpoenas — they aren’t even a recognized branch of the government anymore! (somebody had to leave to make room for the new “Cheney” branch of government)
/sarcasm/ off
And the BA is omnipotent. They’ve as much said so. They can issue all the subpoenas they want. They can even detain Michael Moore as an “enemy combantant” without habeus corpus if they wish.
July 27th, 2007 at 4:10 pmUsing our tax dollars to prosecute a man who tooks some sick people to cuba to save their lives is beneath contempt and proves to the country what wicked foul men Bush and his crowd really are.
They don’t care about citizens, they care about themselves. They don’t care that those citizens were helped by Michael Moore, they just care that his movie dares to make them look bad.
So they jump on whatever they can to take him out.
The country is getting tired of this kind tyranny.
July 27th, 2007 at 4:11 pmJuly 27th, 2007 at 4:14 pm
256 funny:)
July 27th, 2007 at 4:15 pmWow. We better be careful or we’re all going to be “people of interest.”
July 27th, 2007 at 4:42 pmMissmolly, I understand your plan. Do you understand that to implement such a plan, you would have to buy out the existing healthcare agencies and insurers at some point. Who will pay that cost? Are you going to force these companies that have been doing businees for decades to just ride off into the sunset? WE will pay that cost with higher taxes. Then when there’s not enough money in the kitty, we will be taxed again and again. Then will see CBS do a story on “Your tax dollars at work!!!”, showing us a Tylenol used to cost five dollars a pill, now it cost ten. The cost of care will dramatically go up.
July 27th, 2007 at 4:46 pmJohnny Swank: “Companies don’t pay taxes Molly, they adjust that cost to us, the consumer.”
—That’s just not true. Prices are a function of what a given market will dictate. Higher corporate taxes result in marginally less profit, not necessarily higher prices.
Johnny Swank: “The money is being transfered from one form of payment to another, right. That means somebody is still paying for whats not being covered:, it still means you and me.”
— Yes, and the most efficient method devised for delivering healthcare to a mass population is the single-payer model. We’ll pay for the service with our tax money and cut out the profit-driven middle man.
Johnny Swank: “Missmolly, if it were that easy, every problem in the universe could be solved withâ€Pay more taxesâ€.”
— In the early 30’s, FDR pushed through marginally higher rates on the wealthy to help pay for the New Deal Programs. Republicans called it the “Soak the Rich Tax.” In 1994, Clinton pushed through a tax bill which raised the top marginal rate about 3%. Both tax hikes on the rich produced positive results, FDR’s was enormously successful, and Clinton’s was part of the mix that produced the 90’s boom.
Johnny Swank: “Jack Ripper, why do you think we still have bases all over the world?”
Lots of reasons depending on the location, but we shouldn’t need as many as we did during the Cold War. But, sometimes they’re placed to help insure the supply of oil, sometimes they’re placed to help a given corporation or group of corporations protect their oil operations, etc. I’m just saying we don’t need near the number we had in the Cold War.
July 27th, 2007 at 4:49 pmBush’s tax cuts have yielded more income to the total tax receipts in the last two years, than any tax increase has in the last forty years. The economy is booming; but don’t tell anybody here. J.F.K. understood this more than anyone in the democratic party. I guess you would call him a neocon if he were alive today. There are more people working, paying taxes, and spending/borrowing than at any time before.
More bases have been closed since the early 90’s. When is it enough?
July 27th, 2007 at 5:08 pmMissmolly, I understand your plan. Do you understand that to implement such a plan, you would have to buy out the existing healthcare agencies and insurers at some point. Who will pay that cost? Are you going to force these companies that have been doing businees for decades to just ride off into the sunset? WE will pay that cost with higher taxes. Then when there’s not enough money in the kitty, we will be taxed again and again. Then will see CBS do a story on “Your tax dollars at work!!!â€, showing us a Tylenol used to cost five dollars a pill, now it cost ten. The cost of care will dramatically go up.
Comment by Johnny Swank — July 27, 2007 @ 4:46 pm
I’ll take your points individually:
1) “you would have to buy out the existing healthcare agencies and insurers at some point” — Excuse me while I get out my smallest violin to play a sad song for the for-profit healthcare insurers who have already made a fortune out of our wallets. I realize that quite a few people would lose their jobs, and that’s always bad for the economy — but a new system would need to hire people with those skills.
2) “Then when there’s not enough money in the kitty, we will be taxed again and again.” — Like how Medicare now takes up most of my tax dollars? Get real — Medicare operates more efficiently with less overhead than the for-profit companies do. Even if taxes DO go up to pay increased costs, I doubt seriously they will come anywhere close to the skyrocketing premium costs we are subjected to now, year after year.
3) “showing us a Tylenol used to cost five dollars a pill, now it cost ten” — I think you are confusing health care with defense contracts and $800 toilet seats. I agree some oversight will be necessary. By the way, you probably needed a different example than Tylenol — that would be an OTC drug and probably not covered. But if you’re talking prescription drugs, drug companies could be offered a fair price from the government for their research, development, and testing — still make a profit — and not break the system. If any drug company pouts about that, another one will be glad to develop what’s needed. Of course, GSK might have to cut back on their $4 million worth of landscaping at their headquarters (getting violin out again).
4) “The cost of care will dramatically go up” — It’s got quite a ways to go before it EVER gets to the nightmare it is now.
July 27th, 2007 at 5:16 pmBush’s tax cuts have yielded more income to the total tax receipts in the last two years, than any tax increase has in the last forty years.
There was a law passed by Congress a few years ago stating that companies can repatriate funds back into the United States at a low tax rate (I think 15 percent). A lot of companies took advantage of this.
The economy is booming;
Sure, for the rich and the mega rich.
but don’t tell anybody here. J.F.K. understood this more than anyone in the democratic party.
He lowered the top bracket from 90 percent down to 70 percent and close all loop holes. The net result was the rich paying close to the new 70 percent tax rate as opposed to 90 percent tax rate where no one was paying anywhere near that much because of all the loop holes.
July 27th, 2007 at 5:23 pmJohnny Swank: “J.F.K. understood this more than anyone in the democratic party. I guess you would call him a neocon if he were alive today.”
I don’t know how it came to be that conservatives started trying to use JFK’s policies as somehow lending credibility to modern libertarian conservative policies. It’s nuts. Here’s reality and I invite you to listen to Kennedy’s own campaign speeches which will bear me out: Kennedy wanted to lower the top marginal rates from 91% to 70%, but COLLECT MORE REVENUE by wiping out a whole range of loopholls the wealthy had been using to pay no taxes at all.
July 27th, 2007 at 5:24 pmThe point is not how much money the government takes – it’s what do you get for your money. If a tax rate hike is smaller than the amount you currently pay an HMO or a PPO, it’s a net gain for you.
And there is no proof of anything of the sort. Social Security certainly nets me far less than any comparable private investment.
July 27th, 2007 at 5:27 pmJohnny Swank: “Then will see CBS do a story on “Your tax dollars at work!!!â€, showing us a Tylenol used to cost five dollars a pill, now it cost ten. The cost of care will dramatically go up.”
No, again, the cost of a bottle of Tylenol is a function of how much the market will bear for the product. There are substitutes, generics, etc. competing. In fact, an expanded single-payer system would bargain with pharmaceutical corporations for the lowest price possible for drugs as the VA and other government systems already do. That’s why the $35 bottle of diabetes test strips my sister buys costs an Austrailian citizen $5 a bottle. The corporation still makes a profit in Australia or it wouldn’t be there.
July 27th, 2007 at 5:30 pmLet’s see if I can put this as some sort of example. Let’s say you pay $200 a month in health care premiums. And with UHC, you wouldn’t have to pay that anymore, but you might have to pay $100 a month in extra taxes. Do you really hate taxes so much that you would prefer to pay more money out of your pocket for your health insurance?
July 27th, 2007 at 5:35 pmI agree some oversight will be necessary. By the way, you probably needed a different example than Tylenol — that would be an OTC drug and probably not covered.
Easy way around that. Company produces an essentially identical pill to tynenol which is prescription based.
Consumer has the choice of paying $10 a bottle for OTC Tylenol or billing the government $100 for Prescription Tynenol. Which do you think is chosen?
Hint: it happens in Germany, and its the latter!
July 27th, 2007 at 5:38 pmBut if you’re talking prescription drugs, drug companies could be offered a fair price from the government for their research, development, and testing — still make a profit — and not break the system. If any drug company pouts about that, another one will be glad to develop what’s needed. Of course, GSK might have to cut back on their $4 million worth of landscaping at their headquarters (getting violin out again).
I’m glad you care so much about the levels of lost jobs and lost equity!
July 27th, 2007 at 5:40 pmLet’s see if I can put this as some sort of example. Let’s say you pay $200 a month in health care premiums. And with UHC, you wouldn’t have to pay that anymore, but you might have to pay $100 a month in extra taxes. Do you really hate taxes so much that you would prefer to pay more money out of your pocket for your health insurance?
Now lets correct this example.
I should pay $100.
Heinz Kerry should be paying $1000, but invests in tax free bonds, and pays nothing. I now have to cover a share of that $1000.
Jose Sanchez is an illegal immigrant in Nevada, who should be paying $100. But since liberals staunchly oppose ID reform, we can’t tax him, and we can’t identify him to deny him healthcare. I now have to cover a share of that $100.
Brilliant!
July 27th, 2007 at 5:41 pmHe lowered the top bracket from 90 percent down to 70 percent and close all loop holes. The net result was the rich paying close to the new 70 percent tax rate as opposed to 90 percent tax rate where no one was paying anywhere near that much because of all the loop holes.,
And yet the top 1% pays a greater share of taxes now than it did then…..
July 27th, 2007 at 5:43 pmWorking in the medical field I believe I have more credibility than 99% of all other people on this site. Why do I get soo many pts from Canada for mri scans? What do you think they say about their own health care? Is it free? Well 40 and 50% tax rates gets you horrible service. Whay is it so bad? Medical facilities have no incentive to treat anyone. The government gives each hospital X amount of dollars to use per yr. Its to their advantage NOT to treat anyone and to ration care. The reason our healthcare got screwed up it Lawsuits for one thing. That doesnt exist in Canada like it does here. That is the first thing that needs changed. Also we need to have Dr’s and pharmacies advertise their sharges so that they are forced to compete for medical dollars. (it works for lasix eye surgery, why not drugs and other tests?) next we need citizens to shop for cheaper care instead of having a 3rd party payer. Next we need Dr’s to stop practicing defensive medicine which is because of stupid lawsuits. This is what has driven up costs so much. Micheal Moore is nothing more than a propgandist, he wont show both sides to any of his movies and him telling me that Canadas health system is sooo good when I have pts from there saying how bad it is. pathetic
July 27th, 2007 at 5:43 pmSubpoena Michael Moore…? For what?
July 27th, 2007 at 6:01 pmWho did MM kill, torture, steal resources from, cause ANY harm against, … take that one back – by exposing the savory murderous acts of the health insurance industry to WE THE PEOPLE, we now may be able to take steps in eliminating this middle man cash hole soaking the funds and ruining the lives of millions of Americans.
m12: “Social Security certainly nets me far less than any comparable private investment.”
Social Security is not a growth investment. It is insurance.
m12: “And yet the top 1% pays a greater share of taxes now than it did then…..”
That’s just not true when you include payroll taxes. Social Security taxes were doubled in 1983 to 15%.
Tony: If what you say were true, Canadians, when polled, would say they prefer our system. However, when polled, an overwhelming percentage of Canadians say they prefer the Canadian system. No offense intended, but you’re simply telling us a story here. I tend to trust the numbers and they’re available. In addition, the numbers tell us that Canadians have a longer life expectancy than Americans and their infant mortality rate is superior to our system. On top of that, they don’t have a huge percentage of their system with no care at all.
July 27th, 2007 at 6:15 pmAnd Jay Leno’s constant retort: “… well, for going to Cuba.” This shmuck seems to be defending the administration. We heard you the first time, Jay.
July 27th, 2007 at 6:23 pmm12: “And yet the top 1% pays a greater share of taxes now than it did then…..â€
More on this myth – Warren Buffet told an interviewer not long ago that last year his tax burden amounted to 17.7%, while his receptionist paid over 30%.
Remember that everyone pays the same rates. Warren pays the same amount on the first $50K he makes as I do on my first $50K. I don’t believe any Democratic candidate is suggesting even changing rates for anything under $400,000 a year, and even if you’re in that general area, and make $500K, the higher rate would only be taken on the $100K between 4 and 5.
So, rising the top marginal rate or rates doesn’t even affect the vast majority of Americans at all.
July 27th, 2007 at 6:27 pmThis action by the Bush Gang is really scary….
Because it bespeaks a serious problem with those people running our Government. Going after Moore while his movie is running and he is getting a lot of support from both Left and Right indicates a major disconnect between the Bush Gang and the Public. Slapping Moore with a Subpoena indicates that either:
1. The Bush Gang think the public agrees with them (indicating a denial of reality) or
2. The Bush Gang does not care what the public thinks because they feel invulnerable from public opinion.
In either case, it indicates that the Bush Gang is willing to take actions that are crazy (bombing Iran, etc). We have to get these guys out of office ASAP.
When your crazy Uncle starts acting weird you get concerned. When he has a gun you get scared.
July 27th, 2007 at 6:27 pmSluggo, they never learn with Michael Moore. They will get nowhere with this legal action and he’ll just get a lot more popular support and free advertising for his movie. They just can’t get it through their elitist, east coast, Ivy league mellons that this working class guy from Flint can continue to expose their various scams and not only get away with it but make a bunch of money in the process.
July 27th, 2007 at 6:31 pmJust last year one of the news magazine shows went to Cuba and did an interview with Elian Gonzales and his father. If travel by journalists to Cuba is not ok then why did this show not catch the fury of the Bunko administration?
July 27th, 2007 at 6:34 pmHeinz Kerry should be paying $1000, but invests in tax free bonds, and pays nothing. I now have to cover a share of that $1000.
Jose Sanchez is an illegal immigrant in Nevada, who should be paying $100. But since liberals staunchly oppose ID reform, we can’t tax him, and we can’t identify him to deny him healthcare. I now have to cover a share of that $100.
Brilliant!
Comment by m12 — July 27, 2007 @ 5:41 pm
I agree there are inequities in our tax system overall, and I’m not even going to spend my time addressing that — that’s for a different thread. But if you are currently paying anything for your health care, you are getting screwed far worse by this system than you would be by being taxed.
Yeah, your taxes may have to cover a few people who, for one reason or another, aren’t paying their fair share. But look at the burden currently being borne by those who are paying for health insurance now.
Those who cannot afford insurance generally do not seek health care until they wind up in an emergency room, where they won’t be turned away. This is probably the most expensive form of health care, and much of it is avoidable if people have access to regular checkups and wellness programs. Guess who pays for this expensive care? Hospitals have to get their money from somewhere, so they hike their rates for the paying customers in order to break even. Insurance companies now have to pay out more, necessitating a hike in insurance rates. So YOU wind up paying for the uninsured and insolvent.
If somebody isn’t exactly poor enough to qualify for free emergency room care, they get billed whether they are insured or not. Medical expense is the biggest reason for bankruptcy in this country at the moment. Bankruptcy means the hospital doesn’t get paid. Who pays? See above paragraph.
Every time insurance rates go up, another layer of the population can’t afford it. Every time insurance rates go up, another layer of employers can no longer provide it for their employees. This creates more and more uninsured people (and under-insured people), and the burden placed on the insured gets greater and greater. It’s not hard to see where this vicious circle is going.
Personally, I’d rather my tax dollars cover a few tax non-payers.
July 27th, 2007 at 7:02 pmBreaking US law? You mean like lying to Congress…giving freedom to a convicted felon…telling the US public that there was proof there were WMDs so a war could be started…changing the Constitution to fit his needs? Are those the laws you refer too? There are many more but I don’t have a week here to list them all. But hey, I guess you can tell I’m not talking about Moore who is giving us the truth about this mucked up healthcare system.
July 27th, 2007 at 7:07 pmm12: “Heinz Kerry should be paying $1000, but invests in tax free bonds, and pays nothing. I now have to cover a share of that $1000.”
The largest single holder of Treasury Bonds on the planet is the Chinese government. They are our biggest creditor and we are now the world’s biggest debtor nation. In 1981, when Ronald Reagan became president and the era of modern conservative “supply-side” economics began, we were the world’s biggest creditor nation.
This is simply the result of an economic theory which stresses borrowing money from the rich rather than taxing the rich as well as removing regulation on corporate capitalism.
July 27th, 2007 at 7:09 pmI’ll repeat here what I wrote on my blog about this:
http://pointedview.blogspot.com/2007/07/first-amendment-no-license-necessary-to.html
Michael Moore is a journalist. He produces documentaries. The United States cannot demand that a journalist get a license before practicing journalism. That’s what freedom of the press, guaranteed by the First Amendment, is all about: we don’t need no stinking license. We’re free to publish.
Historical context: One of the issues that America’s founders dealt with under former British rule was licensing of printers. No one who wasn’t licensed, by either the king or the official church, was permitted to publish. So, the First Amendment was meant to address this by guaranteeing freedom of the press and thereby, abolishing the need for press licenses.
It’s a principle that’s managed to withstand a couple of centuries.
Fast forward to today. Apparently, Michael Moore has been issued a subpoena for his taking his film crew to Cuba to film his latest documentary, Sicko. And what is the issue the government is raising? That he may not be licensed as a journalist to do so.
There is nothing more dangerous to our press freedom than giving the government control over who may or may not qualify for a license to report and publish. Demanding licenses, which must come through the federal government, means that the federal government can shut down the activities of “non-licensed” journalists. It’s as unconstitutional as it gets, folks. Protest it to the rafters.
This is an especially important issue for freelancers (like me, for example), who, while journalists, aren’t necessarily on staff with a particular news organization.
July 27th, 2007 at 7:47 pmI agree totally that something needs to done with health care in this country. Becareful with this National health care that we hear so much about . I have a close friend who has lived in Canada for 30 years , moved to the US two years ago He waited nine months to see a doctor
July 27th, 2007 at 8:20 pmfor a hernia operation . Not to mention countless other stories that gave me second thought on this idea.
Shut Guantanamo down, no good can come the place.
July 27th, 2007 at 8:53 pmm12: “Social Security certainly nets me far less than any comparable private investment.â€
Social Security is not a growth investment. It is insurance.
m12: “And yet the top 1% pays a greater share of taxes now than it did then…..â€
That’s just not true when you include payroll taxes. Social Security taxes were doubled in 1983 to 15%.
First you call SS insurance, then you call it a tax. A primary purpose of taxes is to fund roads, education, and other items which are growth investments.
Have your cake and eat it too! Which is it!
July 27th, 2007 at 9:01 pmBut if you are currently paying anything for your health care, you are getting screwed far worse by this system than you would be by being taxed.
I know I’m not. I have a simple high deductible plan which suits my needs.
Every time insurance rates go up, another layer of the population can’t afford it. Every time insurance rates go up, another layer of employers can no longer provide it for their employees. This creates more and more uninsured people (and under-insured people), and the burden placed on the insured gets greater and greater. It’s not hard to see where this vicious circle is going.
Personally, I’d rather my tax dollars cover a few tax non-payers.
A few non taxpayers? Between children, the elderly on entitlements, the bottom 40% of earners, illegals, the 10% of so of Americans who don’t pay their income taxes because they claim the war is immoral, John Kerry, S corporation John Edwards, and Senate Finance Chairman Max Baucus, there is a hell of a lot of non-payers!
Want a real solution? Cut funding to Medicare, and ban any research into cost increasing medical technology!
July 27th, 2007 at 9:14 pmThe largest single holder of Treasury Bonds on the planet is the Chinese government. They are our biggest creditor and we are now the world’s biggest debtor nation. In 1981, when Ronald Reagan became president and the era of modern conservative “supply-side†economics began, we were the world’s biggest creditor nation.
Actually, Kery owns state and local muni bonds, for the most part. But I do like your utterly disingenuous comparison of a single individual to a nation of a billion people.
This is simply the result of an economic theory which stresses borrowing money from the rich rather than taxing the rich as well as removing regulation on corporate capitalism.
Right. Tax the rich, force investments overseas, give a windfall to tax dodging lawfirms, and end up with less income from them than before.
Go for it.
July 27th, 2007 at 9:17 pmBreaking US law? You mean like lying to Congress…giving freedom to a convicted felon…telling the US public that there was proof there were WMDs so a war could be started…changing the Constitution to fit his needs?
You talking about Clinton? He did all of those things!
July 27th, 2007 at 9:17 pmMore on this myth – Warren Buffet told an interviewer not long ago that last year his tax burden amounted to 17.7%, while his receptionist paid over 30%.
That’s not what I was talking about, but I’m glad to see Buffet’s got you duped.
During the Reagan years: The share of income taxes paid by the top 10 percent of earners jumped significantly, climbing from 48.0 percent in 1981 to 57.2 percent in 1988. The top 1 percent saw their share of the income tax bill climb even more dramatically, from 17.6 percent in 1981 to 27.5 percent in 1988.
July 27th, 2007 at 9:22 pmTwo questions:
Michael Moore says he’s been issued a subpoena by the Bush Administration.
1. By what department of the Bush Administration has he been subpoenaed?
2. Before whom has he been subpoenaed to appear?
I support Michael Moore’s agenda concerning US healthcare, but the linked article does not answer my two questions.
July 27th, 2007 at 9:53 pmAll u lefty bush haters should be ashamed of yourselves, they way you attack your country and your president.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:15 pmThis country is ran by alot of people, including democrats!
You monkeys went right along with bush the whole time.
And the second things start going bad you turn like rotten milk.
wanna start blamin the right, dems new dang well what was goin on the whole time, so i dont wanna hear anything about lies. you people know better than that. even with all the problems we have this country is still the best there is and if u can think of one better, GO LIVE THERE!
It was debunked on CNN by Dr. Gupta.
Go to CNN and read the transcript.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:44 pmYeah and blacks sitting in the front of the bus was illegal too, would you cheer him on being arrested for filming that Mr. president?
Oh I think you would…
Also, I’m a little sick and tired of a bunch of ex parking machine owners setting policy the rest of the nation’s policy telling me where the hell I can or cannot travel.
And cableroks: An adult has the balls to question and criticize their country, a child just accepts.
And I don’t know what monkeys you speak of, a hell of a lot of us were against this all along. The only monkey I see here is the trained one you’ve become willing to accept any crap shoved down your gullet.
July 27th, 2007 at 10:51 pmif anyone besides MM made this movie it would have made a HUUUUUUGE impact, unfortunatly….. it wasnt. I support a better health care system in this country 100%….. as im paying a lot of money every month for BS health care that only covers scrapes and bruises….. but I do not support troofers…..and i do not support anti-right to own weapons of self defense………uber leftists like MM. I love America, I love freedom, I love people who dont want to kill me for not believeing what they believe… unfortunatly there is no solution to any of it….which is why im moving to a ten acre piece of land with no neighbors. goodnite
July 27th, 2007 at 11:21 pmI Don`t particuarly like Michael Moore, but I`m with him on this one. Stop communism in the US.
July 27th, 2007 at 11:57 pmIf he is so interested in helping people, why doesn’t he do it when cameras are not around. I think he cares more about the money and the spotlight than he does about helping people.
Doesn’t he know that the military must give treatment to those guys?
Why can’t people see thorough people like this?
July 28th, 2007 at 12:41 amI understand that Mr. Moore fabricated this subpeana angle and is using this tactic to gain further publicity. Everyone knows he loaths anyone and everyone associated with the Republican Party; from the menial ground-workers up to the Head of State. Mr. Moore figures he has nothing to loose and all to gain.
July 28th, 2007 at 1:28 amWHO in the Bush Administration subpoenaed Michael Moore?
WHERE is he supposed to appear to answer this subpoena?
WHEN is he supposed appear in answer to this subpoena?
If I can’t get answers to these questions, I’m afraid I’m gonna have
to call “bullshit” on this post.
I support Michael Moore’s agenda concerning US healthcare, but the linked article does not answer my questions.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:04 amFirst, I’ll just say that the sociopathic and criminally insane “Bush Family” continues its “dirty deeds” – at the same time showing their gross stupidity by bringing the public spotlight to their very horrific actions.
Second:
EVERYONE PLEASE GO SEE SICKO (AGAIN) ON AUGUST 11TH!!
LET’S MAKE THE 11% DONATION AS SIGNIFICANT AS POSSIBLE FOR THOSE 9/11 RESPONDERS,
who have been so royally screwed by Freddo & Co.
July 28th, 2007 at 3:51 amWe need more Micheal Moore’s; and no more Bush’s. The Bush Adm. has do so much damage period, allot of people globally are feed up. Is Micheal Moore the only one in this country left with any kawhona’s? People wake up please! He speaks truth! This is the worst most corrupt admistration we have ever had, and neither sides are doing anything about nothing. What does that say? The people need to start taking back their contry in my opinion for what its worth. Micheal Moore is doing a great thing, keep it up, I support him 120%! Bush is once again trying to use a diversion and wasted tax payers money to a good cause as usual. Moore does not make money on the stuff he does, if anyone know at all about him and does their research. lol
July 28th, 2007 at 4:18 amI’m really glad I am Canadian ! Bush is destroying the U.S.A!!
July 28th, 2007 at 7:14 amPeople go to Cuba everyday, Americans included. They have some really great resorts there and they love the dollar. All you do is go to Canada or Mexico and fly to Cuba from there. The Cubans won’t even stamp your passport if you are American so you won’t get in trouble with the Gubermint when you come back to the states.
July 28th, 2007 at 9:03 amNo, you’re not with him on that. In fact you’re pretty much only “with” the most hysterical anti-Sicko critics.
July 28th, 2007 at 9:42 amSuggested response to Bush Crime Mob “soupena” not to be confused with a subpoena issued by a real US government:
1. Claim National Security. “I am unable to discuss the trip because it might compromise the secret location of Guantanamo Bay. Guantanamo Bay might be subject to Cuban or terrorist attack.”
2. Claim Faulty Memory. “I have no recollection of that event. I have searched my memory and do not recall anything like that. I do not remember being at any such location.â€
3. Claim Executive Privilege. “I am not at liberty to discuss any conversations I may have had with the President. I cannot discuss meeting with the President. I am not at liberty to acknowledge meeting with the President or any representative of the administration.â€
4. Claim Theatrical License. “Events depicted were dramatic reenactments of fictional events. The actual scene was shot on the back lot in an undisclosed location. Dialog and events were recreated to enhance dramatic effect. Cuban speaking actors were employed to create the illusion of being in Cuba.â€
July 28th, 2007 at 10:42 amYeah and blacks sitting in the front of the bus was illegal too, would you cheer him on being arrested for filming that Mr. president?
Oh I think you would…
The Democrats in Alabama did that.
July 28th, 2007 at 10:46 am11 percent of the BOX OFFFICE. That’s not 11 percent of the profits. That will total many MILLIONS of dollars for the people who are suffering because they spent time at ground zero helping, and cannot get complete coverage. EVERYONE should now go see this movie, or at least buy a ticket, to help the workers. And don’t vote for anyone who is not in favor of universal health care!
July 28th, 2007 at 11:42 amIt’s scary to think of all of the kool-aid drinkers we have out there that will believe a propagandist like Moore. He makes a few movies that are largely fiction or twisted fact, at best. We have government run health care. It’s called Medicare, Medicade and the VA. These are the worst run aspects of American health care and now you want to turn the rest over to the government. Why don’t we just turn over all of our wages to the government since you seem to think that they can run our lives much better than we can. If that doesn’t suit you then just move to Cuba, or some other communist country, where honey flows and everyone lives in daily bliss.
July 28th, 2007 at 11:51 amMoore should file a motion to quash the subpoena and if that is denied he should appeal it all the way to the Supreme Court. This is harrassment pure and simple. If he has to appear, he should tell them to go straight to hell. Bush and Cheney need to be investigated throughly and impeached. Eventually, all of their back door deals and payoffs will surface after they leave office. No ethical administration would support tens of billions in no bid contracts to Halliburton with its Vice President being the former CEO and still owning stock in the company. Cheney shredded thousands of documents days before the current Congress took office and most recently instructed the Secret Service to destroy the visitors log to his residence. Anyone who can’t see what is going on is a complete idiot. The Iraq war is about oil and Bush and Cheney still hope to be global power brokers after leaving office. Both are proven crooks and liars and the truth will be told.
July 28th, 2007 at 1:51 pmMichael Moore is doing a great thing. I hope he continues to unveil the evils in America and the Bush administration. Keep it up!
July 28th, 2007 at 3:57 pmAbout Canadian Health care…..
You will see a lot of articles about the ‘CRISIS’ in Canadian Health Care. Trust me, it doesn’t exist.
The drug and medical insurance companies use their clout with certain researchers, writers, and networks to push stories that will try to undermine public confidence in the system and create opportunities for selling both insurance and new drugs that are not yet covered by our public plans.
Some of these have been found to contain fudged or falsified data. Others pick on anecdotal events (individual cases of real screw ups). You know, not unlike the screw ups that your HMOs create deliberately.
A larger issue is the general attitude to government. In a democracy, doesn’t the government represent the people? So it’s really people taking care of themselves as a group? What is wrong with U.S. democracy that no one wants the government to be in charge of anything? It is that they no longer feel the government represents them? Just a thought.
July 28th, 2007 at 4:07 pmWhat blows my mind is all the loyal bushy wing-nuts coming onto thinkprogress.org, and trying to infuence the minds of progressive thinkers!! To the wing-nuts who refer to Michael Moore as a capitalist pig, (not that I agree with the opinion that he is a capitalist pig) but do you mean that he is a capitalist pig like all the right-wing capitalist pigs who are exploiting american and non american workers to make billions? Why are some allowed to make billions, but not Michael Moore? And to the charge that he owns stock in Haliburton: Why are you neo-cons more concerned with Michael Moore owning stock in Haliburton than our own VP who lied about WMD’s and got us into a war that he is DIRECTLY profiting from? YIKES!! What has happened to America? We can’t question our government? MOVE TO CANADA? Why can’t we want to live in America and have a good health care system here? I love America enough to want to stay and to affect change to make it the best place to live. Why should we settle for less?
July 28th, 2007 at 4:14 pmSorry about that. I noticed that most of the postings were falling way to the left but I was trusting that the description of “non-partisan” in the “Terms of Use” meant just that. I suppose I should have just gone over to moveon.borg and posted to the headquarters of the collective instead of just this offshoot. Keep taking your orders and be happy when they tell you to be. By the way, if you check the success rate and not just how little it costs in other countries you’ll find you will be getting what you pay for.
July 28th, 2007 at 4:50 pmAbout Canadian Health care…..
You will see a lot of articles about the ‘CRISIS’ in Canadian Health Care. Trust me, it doesn’t exist.
——————————————————————
Trust me? that’s funny Darrell say it again
Trust me.
July 28th, 2007 at 5:27 pmIt doesn’t exist …
It’s all in your imagination…
That is not true….
You cannot believe everthing you read….
It never happened…
Nothing to see here…
July 28th, 2007 at 5:29 pmSpeaking of “Sicko” Moore is the epitome of sick..it shoule be tattooed on his forehead!!
July 28th, 2007 at 5:34 pmActually, by non-partisan, they are specifically refering to the rule that you not support a candidate on this web site. I agree though, moveon.borg, or even karlroveslittlepuppet.org would be a great site for some of the parrots who just keep spewing out the same talking points that have had no basis in fact for years. I thought we were supposed to have an opportunity to bring ideas to each other, not insult each other because we are so frustrated by the poor governing of our country.
Michael Moore has put an issue of serious need in front of our faces, and our government ought to do something about it. Every big name in Washington has taken money from the Insurance and Pharma industry, including Bush, and including Hilary Clinton. They have been bought to support the interests of Big Insurance and Big Pharmacy. The problem IS the insurance companies. They don’t pay. The only way you get paid is if you lose everything you own paying what they don’t cover. I have a child with a disability. He has always paid cash for his wheelchairs and therapies, never had a surgery, hardly been sick a day in his life. But he has a pre-existing condition (wheelchair) and can’t get insurance. One big medical event will wipe out any money he has just to take care of himself. So then he should go live in some pathetic government paid housing with the poor care he’ll get. We have worked hard to provide for him. Why can’t this country take care of it’s sick without turning them from a “just getting by” middle class to indegent? And why does the care for the indigent and disabled have to be so pathetic. Most americans who pay for health insurance are paying $200-$400 a WEEK, and not getting covered for major medical-getting rejected. I would gladly trade my premioums to big insurance to a tax that pays private Health Companies to treat us.
July 29th, 2007 at 9:37 amGuess we’ll all be caring around “Free Mike!” signs here pretty soon.
You reckon they’ll try to put him where they didn’t want him to go in the first place?
“Trust Me” and “The American people have to understand” are sentences that are beginning to give me hives when I hear them blubbered by idiots.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:57 amThe extended video clip can be found here:
VIDEO
July 30th, 2007 at 3:19 pmhttp://beta.redlasso.com/Community/ClipPlayer.aspx?i=53871e34-7774-4410-a983-237a85d0abef
Yes, I absolutely agree something must be done with the healthcare in this nation. I suggest we ask Hillary since it was her pet project during her husbands two terms in office and she did such a bang up job with it.
July 31st, 2007 at 12:24 pm