116:
By on Jul 28th, 2007 at 5:18 pm
116:
Number of U.S. troop suicides in Iraq, which “does not include several dozen still under investigation, nor any of the many cases back in the U.S.” Editor and Publisher notes that the “rising toll of suicides” is “[o]ne of the least covered aspects of the fallout from the Iraq war.”
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War is hell. We’re not leaving until the job is done.
July 28th, 2007 at 5:22 pmexactly TP – there has been many many cases of Soldiers suffering from PTS and shooting themselfs back in the US
I would hate to guess how many but I bet more than 116
When you spend time at home and have to go back to a war zone especially when so many children are being blown up – thats when the stress of it all comes back to haunt
July 28th, 2007 at 5:27 pmDang, the administration missed a real opportunity there, they could have labeled Tillman’s death as a suicide and all of this latest flap would never have happened….
July 28th, 2007 at 5:27 pm“We’re not leaving until the job is done…”
Comment by Brassmask from 3DHS
… he sternly muttered from his armchair as he smoothly popped the top on yet another can of cheap beer. It wasn’t even mid-afternoon yet and already he was so sloshed he had lost all track of time, or whether his rambling posts at TP made the least bit of sense, other than to himself.
Suddenly, he felt an urgent need to run to the bathroom, but it was too late. He hadn’t managed to raise his befuddled body from the chair before warm, flowing disaster struck, just like yesterday, and the day before, and the day…
July 28th, 2007 at 5:33 pmyour comment sounds EXACTLY like what Hitler said. You warmongers are scary.
July 28th, 2007 at 5:34 pmSomething is very wrong with the morals of people that support this illegal, unjust war that is killing our soldiers and ruining their lives. There is NO WINNING the so called war on terror in Iraq.
The only way this “war” has any chance of being “won” is through DIPLOMACY AND PEACE.
Hitler and his racist warmongering gang are no different than this cabal of criminal zealots running the WH who deceived us into war in Iraq. war crimes take time to bring forward but you can be sure they will be brought against Bush and his cronies.
EP to cover up what happened to Pat Tillman? HOW DARE THEY demean this soldier and his family like this.
The truth WILL COME OUT. The crimes WILL be prosecuted. All of you who willingly support Bush will end up just like all the Nazi sympathizers did. Hated by the world for your sickening loyalty to a MONSTER.
3/ http://www.icasualties.org/oef/byNationality.aspx?hndQry=US
Tillmans death is still down on record
number 156 / Hostile – Friendly fire
I should read / Non Hostile – Friendly fire
I was checking to see if any others in his platoon died with him or after him
July 28th, 2007 at 5:34 pm“Something is very wrong with the morals of people that support this illegal, unjust war
Comment by Justice — July 28, 2007″
How is it illegal?
July 28th, 2007 at 5:37 pmDraft the Liberals!! Save our soft, pale, fleshy palmed, physically weak, big brained bespectacle Rovians! This world needs more Limbaughs, Roves, Hasterts and Newts!! You women should be having as many kids from these glorious hydrosavalic Republican men as possible!!
July 28th, 2007 at 5:38 pmHow is it illegal?
Comment by michael — July 28, 2007 @ 5:37 pm
First give me your interpretation of the justification or justifications as they have shifted. This will aid in answering your question.
July 28th, 2007 at 5:40 pm“You women should be having as many kids from these glorious hydrosavalic Republican men as possible!!
Comment by Anne Colter — July 28, 2007″
You can’t even spell it correctly!
July 28th, 2007 at 5:41 pm“First give me your interpretation of the justification or justifications as they have shifted. This will aid in answering your question.
Comment by dbadass — July 28, 2007″
No……..how is it illegal?
July 28th, 2007 at 5:42 pmYou can’t even spell it correctly!
Comment by ?michael?
Why do call me an ‘it’?
Is Ann an it?
What is it?
July 28th, 2007 at 5:43 pmWhat job would that be? I remember seeing Mission Accomplished for beating Iraq and I remember seeing Saddam get executed..
July 28th, 2007 at 5:45 pmHow dare you not ask me a question michael!!
How dare you make a statement to me, “it”!
July 28th, 2007 at 5:46 pm“Is Ann an it?
What is it?
Comment by Anne Colter — July 28, 2007 ”
No! She is a brilliant Constitutional lawyer. The reason you liberals hate her so is probably because she was part of the D.C. legal team that helped get Clinton impeached!
July 28th, 2007 at 5:46 pmThe Bill Kristol-like response would go: “That’s certainly unfortunate but after all, these people did volunteer.”
July 28th, 2007 at 5:46 pmBrass: We’re not leaving until the job is done. – - Ahh yes, “the job.” What would that be again? I mean, what would that be this month?
July 28th, 2007 at 5:49 pmNo! She is a brilliant Constitutional lawyer! -?michael?
I told you no more statements!!
You didn’t answer the question. Why did you call Ann “it”
Prove I hate Ann? Prove she is the “it” you called her? Why does she write books about Godless Liberals when she is a constitutional lawyer?
July 28th, 2007 at 5:50 pm“Something is very wrong with the morals of people that support this illegal, unjust war”
Please explain how this war is illegal. How could Hillary Clinton, John Kerry and John Edwards vote for something that is illegal?
July 28th, 2007 at 5:52 pmI wonder how sad the country would truly be if someone suicide bombed a repug headquarters. My guess is many would feign outrage whilst secretly rejoicing, I myself wouldn’t care.I pray this never happens and hope we get beyond the partisanship before it does.
July 28th, 2007 at 5:53 pm“How could Hillary Clinton, John Kerry and John Edwards vote for something that is illegal?”
Simple–they were lied to. Remember?
July 28th, 2007 at 5:54 pmThe reason you liberals hate her so is probably because she was part of the D.C. legal team that helped get Clinton impeached!
That statement is illogical. Your assuming facts NOT in evidence!
They cant HATE what you PROBABLY say!!
Stop making invalid illogical and convoluted statements!!
Ask questions!!
July 28th, 2007 at 5:54 pmoff-topic but great UNLIKE off-topic and Ann Coultard
TSA knew ‘dry run’ terror alerts were bogus
CNN: TSA knew ‘dry run’ terror alerts were bogus David Edwards and Nick Juliano
Published: Friday July 27, 2007
Print This Email This
The Transportation Security Agency’s national security bulletin issued was based on bogus examples that were combined to give the impression of ominous terrorist plotting, CNN reports.
“That bulletin for law enforcement eyes only told of suspicious items recently found in passenger’s bags at airport checkpoints, warned that they may signify dry runs for terrorist attacks,” CNN’s Brian Todd reported Friday afternoon. “Well it turns out none of that is true.”
http://rawstory.com/news/2007/TSA_dry_run_terror_alerts_bogus_0727.html
July 28th, 2007 at 5:54 pmBush does not care anything about the troops, whether they die in combat in Iraq, commit suicide, or get seriously wounded or maimed.
July 28th, 2007 at 5:55 pmI believe I speak for all Republicans when I say, we are praying every day for another domestic terror attack.
“Please God, let them hit us hard,” the prayer goes. “I don’t care how many people get killed, so long as it hurts the Democrats. Amen.”
July 28th, 2007 at 5:56 pmOFF topic and not as trivial as Ann whats her face Retard
After a period of reflection, film-makers are turning their attention to Iraq. The results will be uncomfortableviewing for George Bush. By Andrew Gumbel
MANY GREAT FILMS COMING OUT SOON
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article2809181.ece
July 28th, 2007 at 5:57 pmhow is it illegal? Are you serious? For starters, you can’t INVENT fake intelligence and feed it to the public as justification for WAR. Number two, Iraq is a soverign country who did NOTHING TO US yet we have not only invaded and occupied their country but we have TORTURED AND MURDERED their people and destroyed their entire infrastructure!
July 28th, 2007 at 5:57 pmIt is ILLEGAL and a crime against MANKIND to initiate an illegal war against a soverign country! Why do you think he cummuted Libby? Why? Because on top of creating an illegal war and invading Iraq, the WH committed HIGH TREASON and outted ONE OF OUR OWN CIA COVERT AGENTS! AND HAS ADMITTED IT IN PUBLIC!!
How do you think the CIA feels about an admin. who would OUT their own agents???
These crimes will not be forgotten by any of us who have stood against this illegal war nor will the ENTIRE WORLD forget. He will be brought to the Hague and made to stand for his crimes just like Mislovic and Saddam, he is no different tham them, a self righeous, criminal facist dictator.
He is in flagrant violation of the Geneva Conventions, running secret ILLEGAL camps, holding people with NO habeus corpus INDEFINATELY in Gitmo and you think he will get off scot free?
Think again. He will pay in the end for his illegal war.
Another attack on the US would make moot every single point you cultists have tried to make. Maybe even start our own civil war.I’d enjoy that.
July 28th, 2007 at 5:59 pm“Please God, let them hit us hard,†the prayer goes. “I don’t care how many people get killed, so long as it hurts the Democrats. Amen.â€
Comment by Ann Colter, Rightwing Cundit
And it will also be all Clintons fault!!
July 28th, 2007 at 6:00 pmThis is sad but the rate for all americans of a similar age category is about 12 per 100,000 per year. If you consider we have almost 200,000 troops in Iraq for going on 5 years that’s 24 per year times 5 years or 120 suicides. Although suicide is sad, there doesn’t seem to be the link better it and the war in Iraq that ThinkProgress wants you to believe.
http://www.suicidology.org/associations/1045/files/2004datapgv1.pdf
July 28th, 2007 at 6:00 pmvarnst > do NOT wish for another civil war in America, unless you want the US to become like Iraq.
July 28th, 2007 at 6:02 pmI recently read a story about a soldier who had committed suicide. He couldn’t get it out of his mind that he killed innocent civilians. He was part of a group that planted fake cameras with U.S. markings on poles and buildings in Baghdad. The idea was that these cameras were to record insurgents planting their IED’s but what they attracted was desperate civilians looking for electronics to take and sell; all they got was killed for a petty crime.
July 28th, 2007 at 6:03 pmJay, it may be the only way to become a United States again.
July 28th, 2007 at 6:03 pmhey michael, you might want to read this if you don’t understand how this war is ILLEGAL
July 28th, 2007 at 6:04 pmhttp://deoxy.org/wc/warcrim2.htm
Paul your missing something
Army 98
Navy 4
Marines 14
Air Force 0
total 116 have commited suicide in Iraq
Many many more have commited suicide while at home in the US and about to be stationed back into a war zone
July 28th, 2007 at 6:05 pmthat shows you it runs in the family, his creepy warmonger Dad was as bad as he is.
July 28th, 2007 at 6:08 pmwar crime charges are discussed here for Bushie and his cronies
http://www.alternet.org/story/38604/
Who cares if “most of the insurgent violence directed at the American military has come from [Saudi backed] Sunni forces, and not from [Iranian backed] Shiites“? Bush wants to give the Saudis $20 billion in weapons anyway.
July 28th, 2007 at 6:10 pm
“This is sad but the rate for all americans of a similar age category is about 12 per 100,000 per year.”
I looked at your link – what exactly do you mean by “a similar age category?” The stats for “the young” includes kids of 15. Is that the one you were referencing?
July 28th, 2007 at 6:10 pm34 / Justice
great link – I find Bush guilty
July 28th, 2007 at 6:11 pmwar crime charges story in Wapo
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/27/AR2006072701908_pf.html
there’s plenty more, try looking it up.
July 28th, 2007 at 6:13 pmHis illegal holding of prisoners at Gitmo and TORTURE being perfectly fine by the admin. SHOULD be enough to get you to stop supporting the lunatic, but I guess the lunatic fringe will support this criminal all the way, just like Hitler’s minions did with their blind loyalty.
Infiltating our govt. with “loyal Bushies” is sickeningly Hitler like. The fact that his supporters DISREGARD his handling of the Tillman case shows that they are loyal beyond LAW OR REASON.
varnst > do NOT wish for another civil war in America, unless you want the US to become like Iraq.
Comment by Jay Randal — July 28, 2007
Agreed, jay. varnst, we DO NOT want that in this country. No! No! No!
July 28th, 2007 at 6:14 pmWe are nearing the point where we must begin to run the open fascists off into the bushes. They are willing to sacrifice every last soldier, every last shred of law and decency in order to be proven right.
Their fantasy-rule has to be dismantled and exposed brick by brick.
-GSD
July 28th, 2007 at 6:15 pmOkay, look at the link. For the age category of 25-34 (which would be comparible to U.S. soldiers serving in Iraq, the statistics for suicide hover around 12 to 13 per 100,000 year over year.
If 116 soldiers have commited suicide in Iraq over the past 5 years and we have average approximately 200,000 soldiers in Iraq (not the total population of soldiers, which is in the millions) that number taken by a rate of 12 per 100,000 approximates the number of people that you would expect to commit suicide.
200,000 soldiers for 5 years is a million. 1,000,000 times 12 per 100,000 is 120. Very sad and very close in number (120 vs. 116) to the general population.
July 28th, 2007 at 6:23 pmAll infections come to a head at some point and then need to be lanced.As much as it will hurt us all to physically infight,there may be no other recourse. I want my country back and am willing to bleed for it just as my great grandfather did should it come to that.
July 28th, 2007 at 6:23 pmMy cousin, who had been serving in Iraq, committed suicide this past May.
July 28th, 2007 at 6:25 pmThe war in Iraq is illegal because bush lied as to the reasons for going to war, (that Saddam had wmd and presented an immenent threat to the safety of the U.S.) The Geneva convention clearly states that signees will not attack other soverign nations without out just cause, we did not have just cause to attack Iraq. We have laws that say it is illegal to break treaties without congress’s approval.
Congress didn’t approve of the invasion without first coming back to congress for approval, which bush didn’t do.
In addtion, torture is illegal, we have tortured. Also, it is illegal to use an occupdied country’s resources to rebuild it, (Geneva Convention, again)
I’m sure the nazi wingnuts won’t have read this far.
July 28th, 2007 at 6:30 pm“If 116 soldiers have commited suicide in Iraq over the past 5 years and we have average approximately 200,000 soldiers in Iraq (not the total population of soldiers, which is in the millions) that number taken by a rate of 12 per 100,000 approximates the number of people that you would expect to commit suicide.”
So you’re relying a static statistic; the number of troops currently in Iraq. This ignores those who served and committed suicide later, after returning home. They also should be counted.
July 28th, 2007 at 6:30 pmAlso, you neglect the stats for those soldiers under 25, Paul. A pretty sizable contingent.
July 28th, 2007 at 6:33 pm200,000 soldiers for 5 years is a million. 1,000,000 times 12 per 100,000 is 120. Very sad and very close in number (120 vs. 116) to the general population.
Comment by paul — July 28, 2007 @ 6:23 pm
There are crucial errors in this calculation in this exercise – there have never been over 170,000 American soldiers in Iraq during the last five years of occupation. In addition, those on rotation and back in the US are excluded in Paul’s statistics for suicides, but included in his statistics for the total population.
July 28th, 2007 at 6:34 pmPaul, you should just admit that you can’t extrapolate data from these stats – simply because they lump everyone under 25 together, and don’t distinguish between adults and children.
July 28th, 2007 at 6:36 pmI forgot to mention that most soldiers in Iraq are on 15 – 18 month tours, two or more times. The total population base is closer to 400,000.
July 28th, 2007 at 6:38 pmlets not forget all of the soldiers with PTSD who haven’t committed suicide YET, but at are an extremely high increased risk particularly because BUSH is doing all he can to PREVENT THEM from getting the care they need and deserve!
July 28th, 2007 at 6:42 pmThose scumbag Rethugs vote against the troops on EVERYTHING from the equipment they need to the down time they need. It is incredibly vile. This man has the audacity to call himself Christian.
Jesus weeps.
barfly. if you count those that return you have to increase the population size. If 100,000 troops are in Iraq for 1 year you would expect 12 to commit suicide. If 200,000 troops are in Iraq for a year you would expect 24 to commit suicide. If we have been in Iraq for 5 years you would expect 120 soldiers to commit suicide.
If you start counting the soldiers that come home and commit suicide, you have to increase the population size to everyone that has rotated in an out of Iraq within the last 5 years, which is a larger number than 1,000,000.
It would be like saying: 2 people got food poisioning from a restaurant that at any one times serves 20 people. It’s not 10% of the people getting sick if you consider all the people that went to the restaurant for the whole day, which would be more than the 20 there at any given time.
July 28th, 2007 at 6:43 pmthe stats for 15-24 year olds are similar at 10 to 11 per 100,000.
July 28th, 2007 at 6:46 pmPaul, did you read my last post? Your stats are bunk, for the reasons stated.
July 28th, 2007 at 6:46 pmI wonder if the bush administration doesnt want our boys home because they fear that when they get the full picture sans the propaganda,that they will go ballistic and murder the lot of them.
July 28th, 2007 at 6:46 pm“the stats for 15-24 year olds are similar at 10 to 11 per 100,000.”
Comment by paul — July
But you can’t seperate out those of legal age, and those of children. The stat you supplied doesn’t show any differentiation between the two. It’s bunk.
July 28th, 2007 at 6:48 pmSuicide Fun Fact:
It looks to me, from this site, that overall US suicide rates steadily decreased from 1990 up to the year 2000, when the rate was 10.7 per 100,000.
In 2004, the national rate was up to 11.1 per 100,000.
Ah, the Bush years!
July 28th, 2007 at 6:52 pm“the stats for 15-24 year olds are similar at 10 to 11 per 100,000.â€
For it to be a valid comparison, you must first seperate the 18 + adults from the children, and then add those to the 25+ stats, but you can’t do that, because the stats don’t make the adult/child differentiation.
July 28th, 2007 at 6:56 pmI’m curious. Are suicides included in the total count that all the networks show?
July 28th, 2007 at 7:01 pmbarfly. the demographic is not perfect, but I believe you are splitting hairs. Basically 10 to 15 per 100,000 of the similar general demographic commit suicide every year. If you take the population of troops in Iraq over 5 years and apply the rate the numbers are in line with the general population. ThinkProgress is reaching for an issue to decry the war. It is opportunist and disingenuous and hurts the blogs credibility.
Because it contradicts you views, I understand that you want to dismiss the stats as bunk. Here’s the link again, for others to decide for themselves.
http://www.suicidology.org/associations/1045/files/2004datapgv1.pdf
July 28th, 2007 at 7:02 pmI agree with paul that the figure quoted by TP is statistically meaningless without a similar valid “control” group to compare it to.
It is still, however, a sad number.
July 28th, 2007 at 7:06 pmIs this the future any of us want? Constant fear,constant anger,constant violence? My birthday is 12/31 and when 1999 came I remember the whole world breathing a sigh of relief and looking forward to a new age. How is it possible we are allowing our beloved country to morph into what our fathers and Grandfathers fought against? How are we supposed to slog to work everyday knowing our hard earned money is being taxed for ventures into madness? What is it going to take to make us unite and rid the country of this vermin?
July 28th, 2007 at 7:07 pmDemocrats and Republicans have a stake in this….its called the future.
“barfly. the demographic is not perfect, but I believe you are splitting hairs.”
And I believe you’re trying to post cooked (by you) stats. You don’t know, for instance, if there are more 15 year-olds that seventeen-year-olds who commit suicide, or if there is a larger number of adult suicides than children in the 15-24 bracket. These figures would conceivably skew the stats to show a false impression. And posting your link again doesn’t give it any added validity in relation to your questionable assertion.
July 28th, 2007 at 7:10 pmI take that back. I think I agree with barfly.
July 28th, 2007 at 7:11 pmAmericans aren’t interested in the problem the troops have if they live to come home. The President doesn’t care either. We have 160,000 men/women in Iraq/Afghan and nothing is important but making sure the Iraq appointed government, contractor and GOP get the taxpayers money. Cheney is only concerned with stealing oil. Bush wants to be the Dictator to the World. So if all of our soldiers lie life will go on for the rest of the US. Bush might give them a medal if it doesn’t cost to much. Americans feel good saying we support our troops then moving on to something else. Lip service is all that concerns the US lives of soldiers mean nothing. Notice no more is said about Walter Reed Hospital or any other Military hospitals that treat our troops like dogs. Now with Vick charge it’s more important to protect a pet or animal then our troops.
July 28th, 2007 at 7:15 pmPaul; are there are five times as many children (under 18) that commit suicide than 18+ year olds? Your link doesn’t say how many there are, or what the breakdowns are by age.
Pure bunk.
July 28th, 2007 at 7:17 pm#66 If bush does become “Dictator to the world” I welcome all the worlds rage.
July 28th, 2007 at 7:17 pmThanks, Egreggious
July 28th, 2007 at 7:18 pmMy cousin, who had been serving in Iraq, committed suicide this past May.
Comment by Egreggious — July 28, 2007 @ 6:25 pm
Egg, I am so very sorry.
July 28th, 2007 at 7:19 pmEgg, I am so very sorry.
Comment by Zooey — July 28, 2007 @ 7:19 pm
It wasn’t as personal as you might expect. I actually didn’t know him. My grandfather remarried and moved to the east coast, where Stephen’s family lived. I knew his father but not him. Still, it was very sad. If you can stomach Garth Brooks, the video I linked to is a real tear-jerker.
July 28th, 2007 at 7:22 pmOkay, barfly you’re having trouble with my stats. use these from Egreggious’s post above:
http://www.suicide.org/suicide-statistics.html
11 per 100,000 approximates the rate of soldier suicides in Iraq.
July 28th, 2007 at 7:22 pmBrassmask from 3DHS sez:
Who’s “we”, jackass? Is that “we” like the “we” in “we won the World Series”?
July 28th, 2007 at 7:24 pmU.S. Suicide Statistics (2001)
Further Breakdown by Gender / Ethnicity
Rate Per
July 28th, 2007 at 7:24 pmGroup # of Suicides 100,000
White Male…….22,328……..19.5
One thing about war.
If you want to commit suicide, all you have to do is put yourself in the line of enemy fire.
July 28th, 2007 at 7:27 pm“Okay, barfly you’re having trouble with my stats. use these from Egreggious’s post above”
These are the same stats – except for age breakdowns – that you posted.
July 28th, 2007 at 7:29 pmThe rate by age only extends to 2001 – hardly a valid timeframe, as the war didn’t start until ‘03…
According to the GAO report, whites constitute 71% of the fatalities while representing 67% of all active-duty and reserve forces.
July 28th, 2007 at 7:29 pm“According to the GAO report, whites constitute 71% of the fatalities while representing 67% of all active-duty and reserve forces.”
Comment by paul —
Sounds like someone’s trying to change the subject…
July 28th, 2007 at 7:31 pmIf you consider that most soldiers in Iraq are white males and you use the 19.5 rate per 100,000; it further dilutes the premise that the war is increasing suicide rates among soldiers.
July 28th, 2007 at 7:32 pmAnyway, I’m done here. I’ll leave you with an old quote: “there are liars, damned liars… and there are statistics.”
July 28th, 2007 at 7:34 pmI only trying to change the subject enough to simplify things enough for you to understand.
July 28th, 2007 at 7:35 pmI don’t quite follow you numbers Paul.
http://www.notinourname.net/troops/suicide-14jan04.htm
The rate in 2003 was 13.5 for 100,000.
July 28th, 2007 at 7:35 pmThis is a link that shoots down Paul’s fantasies.
July 28th, 2007 at 7:38 pmThe Army also began offering more counseling to returning troops after several soldiers at Fort Bragg, N.C., killed their wives and themselves after returning home from the war. Per link above.
Which I don’t think were included in the above suicide stats as they would be murders.
July 28th, 2007 at 7:39 pmThe Army recorded 102 suicides during 1991 for a rate of about 13.5 per 100,000.
July 28th, 2007 at 7:43 pmThe Army recorded 102 suicides during 1991 for a rate of about 13.5 per 100,000.
Comment by paul — July 28, 2007 @ 7:43 pm
At which time the national suicide rate was higher as well, it would seem.
July 28th, 2007 at 7:46 pmWalt that would shoot down my arguments if suicidal meant suicide.
July 28th, 2007 at 7:50 pmMy point is this: Although 116 soldiers have committed suicide in Iraq, the occurrence of suicide hasn’t seem to increase due to the Iraq war.
July 28th, 2007 at 7:52 pmThe rate by age only extends to 2001 – hardly a valid timeframe, as the war didn’t start until ‘03…
Comment by barfly — July 28, 2007 @ 7:29 pm
Damn you barfly, using “facts” to make your point!
July 28th, 2007 at 7:58 pmWinkenwerder said the military has documented 21 suicides during 2003 among troops involved in the Iraq war. Eighteen of those were Army soldiers, he said.
That’s a suicide rate for soldiers in Iraq of about 13.5 per 100,000, Winkenwerder said. In 2002, the Army reported an overall suicide rate of 11.1 per 100,000.
The overall suicide rate nationwide during 2001 was 10.7 per 100,000, according to the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
By contrast, only two U.S. military personnel killed themselves during the 1991 Persian Gulf War, although that conflict only lasted about a month. The Army recorded 102 suicides during 1991 for a rate of about 13.5 per 100,000.
July 28th, 2007 at 7:58 pmMy point is this: Although 116 soldiers have committed suicide in Iraq, the occurrence of suicide hasn’t seem to increase due to the Iraq war.
Comment by paul — July 28, 2007 @ 7:52 pm
I don’t think we have the appropriate figures to say one way or the other really. Instinctively, (and I must admit politically), I am inclined to believe that the stresses of war would increase the rate of suicide. But I don’t think this number proves that.
Apparently some deaths are still being investigated, and that might cause these numbers to change. In addition, I would not discount my hypothesis that some suicidal Soldiers might throw themselves into enemy fire, and thus be counted as “casualties” instead of as suicides, thus giving a skewed rate vs. the civilian population.
July 28th, 2007 at 8:02 pmHow much more is the current rate of 13.5 per 100,000 now, verses the 13.5 per 100,000 rate of 1991?
July 28th, 2007 at 8:03 pmHow much more is the current rate of 13.5 per 100,000 now, verses the 13.5 per 100,000 rate of 1991?
Comment by paul — July 28, 2007 @ 8:03 pm
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought the 1991 was used because we were at war that year as well.
In addition, suicides in the general population were apparently higher then as well.
July 28th, 2007 at 8:06 pmHow much more is the current rate of 13.5 per 100,000 now, verses the 13.5 per 100,000 rate of 1991?
Comment by paul
5,000 veterans commit suicide every year Paul.
http://www.vamortgagecenter.com/blog/2007/05/24/va-not-adequately-staffed-to-handle-suicidal-veterans/
Thats not civilians going to restaurants and getting food poisoning. I have family members that went to vietnam or were shot down in war. They didn’t commit suicide neither are they the same people anymore.
July 28th, 2007 at 8:09 pmEgreggious. I would also tend to believe that the stresses of war would increase the likelyhood of suicide, but these numbers don’t show that. It is possible that suicidal soldiers are sacrificing themselves in battle, but it doesn’t seem credible to project that idea onto the stats. Suicide is horrible no matter what. I just think TP is off the mark on this. There are plenty of good reasons to oppose the war, I just don’t believe it has significantly increased suicide rates for soldiers.
July 28th, 2007 at 8:12 pmIt wasn’t as personal as you might expect. I actually didn’t know him. My grandfather remarried and moved to the east coast, where Stephen’s family lived. I knew his father but not him. Still, it was very sad. If you can stomach Garth Brooks, the video I linked to is a real tear-jerker.
Comment by Egreggious — July 28, 2007 @ 7:22 pm
A 22 year old’s life is over, apparently because of this terrible war.
July 28th, 2007 at 8:14 pmA great tragedy.
Comment by paul — July 28, 2007 @ 8:12 pm
I think on the whole I reluctantly have to agree with you.
July 28th, 2007 at 8:16 pmPAUL, DAGIM, etc. – you’re missing the article. The rate discussed in the article is **TROOP** suicides. The VA Article references **VETERAN** suicides. The two are roughly additive.
Of course, the troops will eventually become veterans and we’re gonna have all sorts of fallout in the VA for that.
July 28th, 2007 at 8:16 pmThats not civilians going to restaurants and getting food poisoning. I have family members that went to vietnam or were shot down in war. They didn’t commit suicide neither are they the same people anymore.
Comment by DAGIM — July 28, 2007 @ 8:09 pm
Well said, DAGIM.
Paul has a problem with everyday human compassion.
July 28th, 2007 at 8:16 pmEgreggious. You’re right that we were also at war in 1991. I just didn’t think anyone here seriously compared the First Gulf War with the war in Iraq.
July 28th, 2007 at 8:17 pmpawl,
July 28th, 2007 at 8:22 pmRefer to the following link which includes the quote:
“According to the survey, suicide rates for soldiers in Iraq from 2003 to 2006 were 16.1 per 100,000, compared with the average Army rate of 11.1.”.
Zooey. I have everyday human compassion for you.
July 28th, 2007 at 8:24 pmpawl,
Refer to the following link which includes the quote:
“According to the survey, suicide rates for soldiers in Iraq from 2003 to 2006 were 16.1 per 100,000, compared with the average Army rate of 11.1.â€.
Comment by WaltTheMan — July 28, 2007 @ 8:22 pm
This figure is more out of the norm for the general population. This is more meaningful. (I haven’t actually read the article yet).
July 28th, 2007 at 8:28 pmGood find, Walt!
July 28th, 2007 at 8:30 pmGood find, Walt!
Comment by Egreggious — July 28, 2007 @ 8:30 pm
Thanks, I knew where to look as I read about six newspapers a day. Retirement is so relaxing.
July 28th, 2007 at 8:34 pmWalt. that link is the most convincing yet for showing a significant increase in soldiers suicide rates in Iraq. Assuming these are the most accurate figures, I would concede the point. I would also concede that if you assume the 116 suicides occurred at the rate of 16 per 100,000, a rate of 11 per 100,000 (average rate) would have resulted in approx 77 suicides; 40 less than the wartime total.
Thank you.
July 28th, 2007 at 8:40 pmI watched a DC-8 crash into the ground in Sacremento years back Paul. A DC-8 I flew on at times to get to places of work. Real people flew those planes, I talked and joked with them.
When you see a plane loaded with some 40,000 lbs of fuel crash and explode in front of your eyes you just can’t imagine how it affects one. I suffer from PTSD. A fellow worker sabotaged some jets, one of them nearly crashed in Anchorage because the stabilizer froze. It turned into a FBI investigation. My personal life and career were basically ended by baseless accusations. I was followed, my apartment and my private life were invaded, I was fired from my job. You just don’t know what your talking about. You don’t know how it feels. You don’t seem to care either. I know what compassion is, so did Jesus, yet many so called Jesus followers today are some of the most incompassionate fecks you’ll ever meet.
I read their insane crap every day and cringe when I do. If Armageddon comes around it won’t be because of Muslims, it will be because of empire builders who see war as profitable and necessary.
You can try to call me a liberal like your codeword using cohorts in political hatred, you can project your inane pundit political opinions on me, you can try to pin your incompassion on me all you want. Its always money first with people like you. Most Republicans don’t care about Americans after they are born. Screw em. They see them as stealers of their precious monopoly money while hungering for war and death, perhaps even the oil. Why? because they know they won’t have to deal with it firsthand or serve. They learn how to be sociopaths at school but not how to have compassion. They are following in the Romans footsteps and don’t even realize they are repaeting their amoral avarice laden mistakes. America won’t fall because of poor people, it will rot from the center of government because of its powerhungry greed.
It’s no surprise the Republican officials are mostly chickenhawks. Hell I am more conservative than any of them and thats why I don’t care for the Wolfowitzs, the Cheneys, the Roves and the rest of the sociopathic empirical war monger chickenhawks from elitist univeristies and families. Their God is Mammon.
I know who my God is. I don’t need some idiot pundit trying to paint their Godless by political party claptrap thru televised media and insane Godless book written by a female sociopath that wants to poison judges and blow up the UN on me. I couldn’t hold that much hate in my heart if I tried. I would probably still stop and help one of these hateful asses if they needed it.
The biggest chickenshits and the biggest haters on the internet are the corporate whores, who cloak themselves in Jesus, who put money before mankind. Million dollars missiles before health care. People who would spend billions on nuclear bombs and then let our troops suffer at some shithole like walter reed because of a few lousy bucks and their materialistic greedy views of what life really is about.
Dont go away mad Paul, go with a newfound shred of decency.
July 28th, 2007 at 8:45 pmPaul,
You sound like the Rummys and McNamaras of the world; it is all about statistics and the military, especially when back from Iraq, are just so much battle-damaged Humvees. Just put them behind the shed so no one can see them.
I am a wounded vet of the Vietnam clusterf@ck, and know first-hand how Chickenhawks behave, and we have a whole nest of them in the BushCo Cabal. I am getting the impression that you may not have served. Am I right?
July 28th, 2007 at 8:57 pmpawl,
July 28th, 2007 at 8:58 pmTake the numbers in perspective. Total Army forces NG included) are 1,029,264. Of those under 450,000 have served in Iraq. If those who have served in Iraq are erased from the overall total, the Iraq vs non-Irag numbers become 16.1% vs 7.3%. The last number fits historic norms.
My post #109 was for a five year period.
July 28th, 2007 at 9:02 pmDAGIM. I also lost a planeload of friends when I was in the military. I wasn’t there when it happened, but it was painful. I unstand what you say about conservatives. I hate the hypocrisy I see in many Christian Republicans. I can also see the harm when corporations try to profit at the expense of individuals. I just don’t see a black and white world. I don’t see all Christians as hypocrits (I’m agnostic, BTW). I don’t see all corporations as malevolent. I don’t see all Republican initiatives as evil. I also believe that many well intentioned progressive initiatives have unintended consequences that limit our freedoms and prosperity. Some (most) corporations provide great value to people and make the lives better. Many republicans believe in allowing people greater economic freedom. Although I respect liberals anti-war stance (because war is horrible) I recognize that there are times when it serves a purpose. I believe those opposed to the war, just don’t consider the jeopardy to our liberty from Islamic jihadists as significant as those who support the war.
I’m sure I have many disagreements with you and many ideas that are different than yours. But, please understand, that I do care.
July 28th, 2007 at 9:06 pmAnd the number s/n be a percentage, but a toll per 1000,000.
July 28th, 2007 at 9:07 pm100,000 not 1000,000.
July 28th, 2007 at 9:08 pmupside. 10 years AF Reserve tactical airlift with a dozen or so combat missions into Sarajevo in the mid 90s.
Does that somehow make my perspective more relavent than if I hadn’t served?
July 28th, 2007 at 9:12 pmGuys, I have to defend paul. The number in the TP post had no context, and we have been searching for a context, and I believe we now have one.
I don’t think paul is heartless. He’s just a truthseeker. Please give him a break.
July 28th, 2007 at 9:14 pmBTW
Martha Stewart = Egreggious
July 28th, 2007 at 9:21 pmupside. 10 years AF Reserve tactical airlift with a dozen or so combat missions into Sarajevo in the mid 90s.
Does that somehow make my perspective more relavent than if I hadn’t served?
Comment by paul — July 28, 2007 @ 9:12 pm
I was on a certain mid-Pacific island chain when a Japanese fleet delayed my mother’s birthday party. Not yet 9 months old, and I still remember the flames and the bombs. That is the reason that when I heard the term “Shock and Awe”, I said to myself “Oh, #hit”. I knew and know what was/is coming.
July 28th, 2007 at 9:25 pmComment by DAGIM — July 28, 2007 @ 8:45 pm
Thank you, my friend.
Peace.
July 28th, 2007 at 9:31 pmThanks, Martha. Walt, good link. I’m jealous that you are retired and I am not. Good nite, everybody.
July 28th, 2007 at 9:47 pmupside. 10 years AF Reserve tactical airlift with a dozen or so combat missions into Sarajevo in the mid 90s.
Does that somehow make my perspective more relavent than if I hadn’t served?
Comment by paul —
Yes, it just seemed that you were looking at the loss of life and suicide as such a statistical thing and not a human thing. Which is how BushCo looks at it: No more money for VA, no shots of coffins, no pictures of wounded, don’t let the Americans see what war really is.
I was Air/Sea Rescue and saw more than I ever want to have to describe. It was also an immoral war and now we are also in an an illegal occupation.
July 28th, 2007 at 10:01 pmThanks, Martha. Walt, good link. I’m jealous that you are retired and I am not. Good nite, everybody.
Comment by paul — July 28, 2007 @ 9:47 pm
Don’t be jealous, it comes easy. You merely have to survive to an age where you are more expensive then a fifty-year-old on salary and meds. I’m actually on three pensions, but one med plan. As the Cookie Monster would say – Medicare, like Medicare (Except for plan D which I can skirt.).
July 28th, 2007 at 10:16 pmArgh more statistic abuse!
The most important thing in statistics is using the CORRECT model, and using a POISSON distribution (average per # of something) for something as non-inevitable as suicide is INCORRECT!
Poisson distributions are for events like auto accidents, because they will inevitably occur, and since there is no rhyme nor reason as to when they will occur, we have to average them over some unit.
So everyone trying to “extrapolate” the USELESS average suicide statistics per X people, are guilty of “statistic abuse”, just like the people who believe that polls only have an error of a few percentage points.
In this case you need the enumeration of actual suicides for the population of soldiers in Iraq, and an enumeration of a similar population at home in order to perform any COMPARISON, and even then the CORRELATION does not mean any CAUSATION!
July 28th, 2007 at 11:45 pmWho are talking to freak ? Why don’t you review the first 4 posts here and see if you make any sense.
You cannot respond in writing to the voices in your head. They are not real people.
Well there was that whole master-race thing and the gas chambers and a several million people exterminated and the military takeover of a couple of continents, but apart from that, no difference.
Of course we can be sure this will happen, what with the track record of this never happening it’s almost a given.
So in the meantime sit back and watch some TV. Might I recommend Fog Of War. And the BBC’s American War Crimes In Korea. And practically any documentary on Vietnam. Then perhaps The Oil Factor, with the Highway of Death footage from Gulf War 1.
All good reminders of just how many war crimes are sure to be prosecuted in some yet to be specified century.
Sure.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:31 am116: Number of U.S. troop suicides in Iraq … the U.S.†Editor and Publisher notes that the “rising toll of suicides†is “[o]ne of the least covered aspects of the fallout from the Iraq war.â€
Did they note that this was probably because such a number would make it inconsequential given the much higher rate of suicide in the general population ?
How many troops do you people think have toured through Iraq in the past 4 years ? A few hundred ? A couple of thousand ?
July 29th, 2007 at 2:36 amI’ll take one last whack at Pau’ls assertion.
The link Paul provided gathered statistics from the CDC. After scanning the source, the one thing most striking is that there is no mention that these Suicide rates in the US are strictly for non-military citizens. If the stats Paul linked to were compiled using both military and non-military citizens, the 15-24/25-34 age brackets will be skewed when compared strictly to the military suicide rates, because military personnel are being counted twice – once in the overall rates in the US, and once in the military stats.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:49 am“Did they note that this was probably because such a number would make it inconsequential given the much higher rate of suicide in the general population ?”
The CDC stats don’t strictly specify non-military rates of suicide in the US – so they are being counted twice, making your question irrelevant.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:54 amEr… no. If you have two surveys where the same group of people is counted in each, this doesn’t amount to “double counting”. It’s just two polls.
Why you would think it would matter if these 112 suicides were added to those of non-military US citizens is left unexplained.
However you could assume that everyone else here received enough schooling to figure out that 112 suicides isn’t throwing out the figures for the entire US population, FFS already.
In terms of whether what you’ve written is irrelevant it either suggests that these troop suicide rates are significantly out of proportion with previous periods with the military or the general population (as I’ve now noticed Paul has already done adequately) or it doesn’t.
July 29th, 2007 at 4:40 amYour’s don’t suggest either.
Yes. In the same way that blacks would have been counted twice in both the military and general US population surveys. And Jews. And Baptists. And Women with size 7 feet.
The point you are missing is that the figures for the military are either out of proportion with the nation as a whole or they are not.
If they are not, you can argue that all suicides occurring in the US are military personnel or you are not.
July 29th, 2007 at 4:44 amYou are not.
Hence you’ve got no point at all.
“Yes. In the same way that blacks would have been counted twice in both the military and general US population surveys. And Jews. And Baptists. And Women with size 7 feet.”
But these “surveys” you mentioned aren’t being compared against each other, as Paul was attempting to do. If they were, truth would dictate mentioning this fact. You seem confused. You cannot honestly compare one set of figures to the other, when one subset (military members in the US who have committed suicide)) is counted in both stats.
“The point you are missing is that the figures for the military are either out of proportion with the nation as a whole or they are not.”
And the point you are missing is that they are members of “the nation” as much as you or I, and as such, are included as such in the CDC stats – and then counted in the military suicide rate. To get an accurate picture of suicides in the US of non-military personnel, one would have to remove soldiers from the mix – something the CDC stats don’t do. Hence any comparison between the two is specious at best.
“Hence you’ve got no point at all.”
Comment by Kilo
Riiight.
“If they are not, you can argue that all suicides occurring in the US are military personnel or you are not.
You are not.”
Hence you’ve got no point at all.
Comment by Kilo
Someone’s a little touchy today. My point was that
July 29th, 2007 at 12:13 pmSadly this number does not include the military members that have killed themselves once they returned from the war.
July 29th, 2007 at 12:39 pmYeah you can.
What you can’t do is suggest that 112 suicides is going to throw out the figure for the entire US population.
Which is why you haven’t.
Seriously 112. There’s been that many emos topped themselves since I started typing.
FFS, So take 112 off it, check WTF this changes. Shit take 1,112 off the US figures if it will make you happy.
July 30th, 2007 at 8:01 amJust figure this out already. This isn’t something that should require 3 posts.