Yesterday, Iraq war veteran Jon Soltz wrote on ThinkProgress about Pat Tillman: “Was the man the White House used to promote the war ordered to be killed because he was becoming increasingly critical of the war in Iraq?”
Last night on MSNBC’s Countdown, host Keith Olbermann noted that “Corporal Tillman held a number of personal views that were unpopular within the context of the Bush administration, perhaps also within the Army.” Tillman reportedly favored John Kerry in the presidential election, opposed the invasion of Iraq, and had plans to meet with Noam Chomsky.
The Associated Press reported that in the last moments before Tillman died, another soldier was hugging the ground at Tillman’s side, and Tillman said, “Would you shut your [expletive] mouth? God’s not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling –”
The question of whether Tillman was killed for his political views lingers greater than ever. Appearing on MSNBC’s Countdown, Soltz said:
We know he was a free thinker. But it leads you to think was this guy killed possibly by people that didn’t like his political views or was he killed accidentally? We had a time in the war when the Abu Ghraib scandal broke in April 2004 in Iraq; we had basically the Iraqi Tet offensive where the Shiite militias rose up and the contractors were burned at the stake; the President was facing the election and he decided not to go into Fallujah for six months. Did they use him to justify, politically, bad policy in Iraq?
Watch it:
The confluence of these factors intensify the need for openness. Despite being warned that Tillman may have died by friendly fire, Bush referenced Tillman in a 2004 speech but made no reference to how he died. The White house has cited executive privilege in refusing to turn over records that would verify how much Bush knew.
Soltz wrote on ThinkProgress that the longer this case lingers, the more damaging it will be to the military: “Those already in the military will lose faith that the leadership actually gives a damn about them, as the Tillman case becomes a hot topic in chow halls. Morale and confidence in the institution will crumble.”
UPDATE: Some commenters incorrectly understand Soltz’s argument to be that the White House had some involvement in or prior knowledge about the death. That is not what is being alleged. Rather, the question is whether Tillman’s political views played any role in motivating the person who shot him. And did the administration subsequently cover up the motive for Tillman’s death?
I think were drifting over the cliff a bit with this one. calling for openness, yes. turning this into a political conspiracy, that amid the confusion and friendly fire there was a political fragging going on, with no evidence to that, is merely sensationalist speculation that should be beneath this blog.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:07 pmThe white house ordering the death of a public figure who disagrees with them?? Oh, come on now. That is as likely as dick cheney shooting some lawyer in the face!
July 28th, 2007 at 2:07 pmI put NOTHING past this administration. They are hateful, vengeful people and I could see them killing Pat to both silence him and use his death for political gain. This administration will gladly let people die (Katrina and Iraq) and rob them (gasoline prices) to get what they want.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:08 pmWhat will it take to get beyond questions and speculation to evidence?
July 28th, 2007 at 2:08 pmWe need to keep beating this drum.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:08 pmSo, why the cover up! Why the claim of Executive Privilege?
they’re the ones blowing smoke - we’re just looking for the fire.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:10 pmOne more “executive privilege” claim by Bush which trumps common decency! How low can this guy go? GeorgeBush absolutely “owes” the Tillman Family as well as all americans a speedy explanation on how this occurred, (why it occurred?), and how it was intentionally covered up. This level of foul play is really getting old. It’s no wonder most americans throw up at the mere thought of Bush these days.
This new scandal is sure to tank his numbers into the teens! Sick, sick, sick stuff he’s connected to but what can one reasonably expect when his grandfather was connected to the Nazis and was ordered to cease and desist under the Trading with the Enemy Act???
July 28th, 2007 at 2:11 pmI think Noam Chomsky was in on the conspiracy!
July 28th, 2007 at 2:11 pm“I put NOTHING past this administration.”
Not quite, in my view. The people in this administration are cowards. They will do only what their cowardice permits.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:12 pmExecutive Privilege simply indicts Bush by his mere use of the term. Besides, I believe constitutional experts and constitutional lawyers are gearing up to challenge him on the legitimacy of it’s use. Nowhere in the Constititution does it state that a President can utilize “executive privilege” to cover up his criminal activities.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:12 pmToxic Ed is right. The fact that bush is hiding behind executive privieledge means he’s got something to hide. Bush has long past the point where he gets the benefit of the doubt: every position he has taken on an issue has turned out to be a cover for a far worse set of circumstances and until we know what happened to Mr. Tillman, It’s only sensible that the worst be on the table.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:13 pmare you FREAKIN SERIOUS!?!!?!!?!?!?!?!?
killed for political reasons???? wooow you guys need to lay off the tinfoil hat stuff. looooonatics.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:13 pmI’ve sent Kevin Tillman’s letter to every editor I know this past week. It really bears reading and printing at this point in time.
http://www.truthdig.com/ report/ item/ 200601019_after_pats_birthday/
July 28th, 2007 at 2:14 pmHey, Ernie,
Answer this: Why the claim of Executive Privilege? Why a cover up?
July 28th, 2007 at 2:15 pmErnesto: It’s clear that you’ve been eating out of your aluminum pans for too long, dude. I think your dx would be senile dementia.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:15 pmWhen Tillman yelled “I’m Pat f***ing Tillman!” did he remove his helmet? Because I keep looking at pictures of Army Rangers and soldiers and their helmets cover their foreheads. You can’t even see their eyebrows. How the hell does someone get shot 3 times in the forehead wearing that kind of helmet?
Or, could the bullets go thru the helmet? All helmets protect the head, but they aren’t perfect.
The more I read about Tillman’s death, the more questions I have.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:15 pmP.S. Just for the record, Ernesto is Michael who is also CT Scan.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:15 pmErnesto is also Mr. Pee - this we definitely can see from his misuse of punctuation.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:16 pmWhy the claim of Executive Privilege? Why a cover up?
Comment by Marcus Aruelius — July 28, 2007 @ 2:15 pm
It may just be a reflex reaction.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:16 pmI think Kevin Tillman knows exactly what Bush is trying to hide with his use of executive privilege. If we were to peek behind this little man’s use of this probably illegal tactic called executive privilege, we might see much, much more. Let’s get digging.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:17 pmOpenness = OK
This = Crazy Conspiracy Theory
Why did this get published?
July 28th, 2007 at 2:17 pmI will use the same logic the advocates of Bush’s myriad domestic spy programs use: “If they have nothing to hide, why are they hiding?”
-GSD
July 28th, 2007 at 2:17 pmWhy the claim of Executive Privilege? Why a cover up?
Comment by Marcus Aruelius — July 28, 2007 @ 2:15 pm
*crickets*
July 28th, 2007 at 2:17 pmThose three bullet holes in the middle of his forehead at about 10 yards distance, per the coroner, just can’t be legitimately explained away.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:18 pmWhy the claim of Executive Privilege? Why a cover up?
Comment by Marcus Aruelius — July 28, 2007 @ 2:15 pm
*crickets*
Comment by Martha Stewart — July 28, 2007 @ 2:17 pm
——————————-
They are protecting Chomsky!!!
July 28th, 2007 at 2:19 pmMaybe a reflex action. Maybe they can’t go there. The question stands until answered.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:19 pmComments like “ernesto’s” are irrelevant at this point. This ugly situation will go to where it goes. The WH, Rush Limbaugh, the “librul” MSM and our own dear concern trolls couldn’t possibly derail this train at this point.
Last stop, Pennsylvania Avenue!
BTW, my money for ernesto’s identity goes on Flaco.
Later, folks.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:20 pmBush’s claim of Executive Privilege is to protect Noam Chomsky! Ha!
July 28th, 2007 at 2:20 pmWhat a diabolical cover to do something this reprehensible and then turn him into a national hero? I’m not surprised that his parents are going for Bush’s jugular on this one. This is the epitome of serious psychiatric illness - if this was a “hit” due to Tillman’s increasing disillusionment with the occupation, and then to try to hide your tracks which was so obviously done….and then to add insult to injury by pimping his parents into believing that he was a hero…..a precisely the time people were questioning Bush’s faux WMD theory….well, lookie here, folks….I do believe we have a bona fide thriller on our hands. And the end of this sad, twisted clue game will, no doubt, be found somewhere on a ranch in Crawford.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:21 pmMarcus: That moronic troll doesn’t know who Chomsky actually is…I don’t know where they get these trolls on the weekend - out of some gutter, no doubt and in need of some quick cash under the table for their next drug fix.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:22 pmRepublic: I think you’re onto it - Flacky ’tis.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:23 pmSo, why the cover up! Why the claim of Executive Privilege?
they’re the ones blowing smoke - we’re just looking for the fire.
Comment by Marcus Aruelius — July 28, 2007 @ 2:10 pm
That’s what I am asking myself all along. I’ve settled for the explanation, that an incident like this is very embarrassing for the military and of course for the President, who owns these wars. They tried to spin Pat Tillman as the universal hero after his death. And when the partial truth came out, they were left with their knickers around their socks. So they spun it as a friendly fire incident, and period. To avoid the full embarrassing truth from coming out, they claimed executive privilege to keep the lid on things and - thus - made it even worse.
No, I don’t think this was a conspiracy to kill Pat Tillman for his political views. This is just another sad example of the colossal ineptitude of this administration. The only thing that would help now is to get the full truth out, but they are far too incompetent to see this and act accordingly.
This administration, seen from the outside here in Europe, is criminally inept and therefore a danger to world peace. As this massive incompetence has led to several breaches of the law and the constitution, I do not understand why impeachment is not under way right now. Is Congress as incompetent?
July 28th, 2007 at 2:23 pmI’m outta here too…nothing of substance to discuss except for troll blather until this investigation moves forward and forward it will move - stopping right on Penna. Aveue like Republic said.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:24 pmComment by veritas — July 28, 2007 @ 2:22 pm
I’m beginning to wonder if there’s a bottom to their barrel.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:24 pmThe White house has cited executive privilege in refusing to turn over records that would verify how much Bush knew.
That’s just plain weird. What could they possibly have to hide? Up to this point, I just figured the shooting was accidental or the result of personal animosities. But now the White House has blown the story up to these proportions.
Why would they do that if they didn’t have to?
July 28th, 2007 at 2:25 pm.
=======>CONSPIRACY
July 28th, 2007 at 2:25 pmDoro: You need to do some reading. This is not a case of “ineptitude” unless you classify “intentional ineptitude or illusional ineptitude” in the same category. This is precisely what Bush would love everyone to believe. Unfortunately, when one researches things a bit, it’s more like a page out of the Third Reich.
This has nothing to do with ineptitude. It’s all been a calculated, progressive coup on this democracy with 911 as it’s catalyst.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:26 pmDoro: Many of us at one time actually believed them to be inept as well. Now we know that it’s all been a well-contrived plan.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:26 pm#35 It’s called “murder”.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:27 pmActually, I agree with your post. However - one must assume the worst and most nefarious motives when confronted with intractable stonewalling. Make them admit how rankly and disrespectfully they used Mr. Tillman and his family, and for what political purpose. Otherwise, I say it’s the politically motivated murder of a legitimate American hero and patriot.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:29 pmThis = Crazy Conspiracy Theory
Why did this get published?
Comment by ‘nonomous — July 28, 2007
What’s a crazy conspiracy theory?
July 28th, 2007 at 2:30 pmMarcos, fix your name.
We have company coming over.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:30 pmThe key issue here is that W used Pat Tillman’s death to political advantage when he knew allready that the conditions under which he died were suspicious. This is lower then a whale turd at the bottom of the Marianas Trench.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:31 pmI think were drifting over the cliff a bit with this one. calling for openness, yes. turning this into a political conspiracy, that amid the confusion and friendly fire there was a political fragging going on, with no evidence to that, is merely sensationalist speculation that should be beneath this blog.
Comment by Kevin — July 28, 2007 @ 2:07 pm
Kevin:
If you don’t have top-of-mind that the Bush administration is lying about virtually everything, you’re simply not paying attention. If you don’t believe that there was a conspiracy to cover-up the circumstances of his death - and the subsequent invention of a cover-story designed to benefit the White House politically, you’ll be hard-pressed to explain their claim of executive privilege.
If you don’t see the carefully crafted conspiracy that led to the commencement of this war under false pretense, and all that has followed - you are in no position to proclaim what ought to be discussed by those seeking the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
No Evidence? Are you insane? Of course there’s evidence, but only the White House can see it…because it was they who invented it.
You have NO EVIDENCE that there was either confusion OR friendly fire. Could this not have been deliberate, premeditated murder? Who are you to say?
You further have NO EVIDENCE that Bin Laden even exists - yet you’ll be the first to parrot that he does.
EVIDENCE?
EVIDENCE is what we seek. In the absence of it, there is no degree of speculation, regardless of how conspiratorial, that this administration has not EARNED. When your actions lead to the total absence of credibility for every word spoken by Bush, this is the logical result.
How dare you tell others what is not to speculate. There is apparently no degree of evil that is beyond them.
Remember, they said that the air at Ground Zero was safe to breath?
You are disqualified from this conversation.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:32 pmThis = Crazy Conspiracy Theory
Why did this get published?
Comment by ‘nonomous — July 28, 2007
That Bin Laden is alive and well is a Crazy Conspiracy Theory,
Do you endorse that Presidential whopper?
July 28th, 2007 at 2:33 pmIt’s such a man’s world, Jessica Lynch gets no attention even though her situation was made up also. Regrets to the Tillmans and all the rest of the families of the lost and maimed
July 28th, 2007 at 2:33 pmMaybe the WH didn’t order his death, but they sure used it to their political advantage. This administration lied to start a war in Iraq and that has lead to a whole clusterf*ck in the middle east and the death of hundreds of thousands of people. Only a freeking moron would suppose a war isn’t going to get a lot of people killed. Therefore I put nothing past them.
Could you imagine the political ramifications to the WH of Pat Tillman, a respected vet who was in the war (unlike everybody in the WH), stating publicly in the US (and thus on every TV channel) that the war in Iraq is wrong and to vote against Bush? The people in the WH would do ANYTHING to silence that type of powerful anti-WH message.
Executive privilege is another lie, just like WMD in Iraq, nukular programs in Iraq, Saddam did 9-11, the WH has nothing to do with the US Attorney firings, and on. The WH knows it is going to be really embarrassed by the truth (reference Jessica Lynch) and want to prevent that from happening. People in the US pay far more attention to football than politics and the WH lying about killing a respected football player is going to go down really badly.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:33 pmThe right wing fascist will stop at nothing to destroy this country. They do it by removing the real great leaders:
Martin Luther King
John F Kennedy
Robert Kennedy
Anthrax sent to Democratic leaders to sway their votes to go to war.
Pat TIllman martyred
NeoCons = Nazis
Anybody supporting Bush at this point is a NeoCon.
Therefore Bush supports are NeoCons, which means they are Nazis.
We shouldn;t have let any of the Nazis escape. They weren’t just following orders. They want to rule the world. A New World Order was coined by a man who’s father funded the Nazis. His son is continuing the tradition.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:34 pmace!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
July 28th, 2007 at 2:34 pmComment by ace — July 28, 2007 @ 2:32 pm
Hey, ace, go easy on him - he seems to not get the nuance of the topic.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:35 pmOf course,the only way to know the truth is when W. House staff agree to testify after receiving Congressional subpoenas.
But they elected instead to use ‘Executive Privilege’.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:36 pmWhy the claim of Executive Privilege? Why a cover up?
Comment by Marcus Aruelius — July 28, 2007 @ 2:15 pm
Just a coincidence?
July 28th, 2007 at 2:36 pmThis is rediculous, not helpful at all to the diologue about the wars and will inevitably be used by the right to radicalize us.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:37 pmComment by veritas — July 28, 2007 @ 2:18 pm
Three American bullets in Pat Tillman’s forehead. His uniform and personal belongings burned in the field. It really IS as easy as that to understand. Do NOT let trolls mock the sacrifice of this American soldier - focus on the facts.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:38 pmMust be.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:38 pmremember 66% of the troops want out of Iraq
The massage to the remaining troops is simple - do your job or be shot by your own
The White house has cited executive privilege in refusing to turn over records that would verify how much Bush knew.
I small a rat or a piece of dogshit , whichever way you view Bush
IF YOU REALLY WANT TO KNOW WHAT HAS BEEN ACCOMPLICED IN AFGHANISTAN READ THIS BY CRAIG MURRAY
http://www.craigmurray.co.uk/
July 28th, 2007 at 2:39 pmMake them answer the goddamned question: Why the cover up? Why the claim of Executive Privilege?
July 28th, 2007 at 2:39 pmturning this into a political conspiracy, that amid the confusion and friendly fire there was a political fragging going on, with no evidence to that, is merely sensationalist speculation that should be beneath this blog.
Comment by Kevin — July 28, 2007
Unfortunately, Kevin, the train has no on at the controls. Is this speculation getting out of hand? Yeeeaaah… but then the way the Bushies have handled this right from the start enabled this mess to mushroom out of control. Ain’t no stopping it now. The more the WH tries to bottle this up, the more the speculation is going to grow, and the collateral damage, shall we say, is already bad and only going to get worse. Toooo BAD!!! Last stop… Pennsylvania Ave!!!
July 28th, 2007 at 2:40 pmThis is rediculous, not helpful at all to the diologue about the wars and will inevitably be used by the right to radicalize us.
Comment by Jim — July 28, 2007 @ 2:37 pm
Cocern Troll
July 28th, 2007 at 2:41 pm3 shots in the forehead at close range from an automatic rifle? Geez, that would pretty much take the top of Tillman’s head right off, wouldn’t it?
Was his family allowed to even see the body? What did people think when they saw the wounds?
July 28th, 2007 at 2:42 pm#
This is rediculous, not helpful at all to the diologue about the wars and will inevitably be used by the right to radicalize us.
Comment by Jim — July 28, 2007 @ 2:37 pm
Us?
I have no concern about being defined as radical by these Nazis.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:44 pmWhile the Tillman affair is spawning conspiracy theories on all sides, it is once again drawing attention to Ann Coulter and other conservatives’ apparent comfort with fragging itself.
For the details, see:
July 28th, 2007 at 2:45 pm“Fragging Rights.”
# 37, 38
Sorry veritas, I don’t quite follow you there and believe me some of it is just the wish that there is not another Hitler lurking, this time with nukes.
I’ve read Al Gore’s “An Assault on reason” and I’m a couple of pages into Glenn Greenwald’s “A tragic legacy” and both show, that the development of the political situation within the US shows indeed many traits of deliberation. The deliberate disinformation, the deliberate demolition of any oversight, the equally deliberate eroding of your constitution, it’s all there. (read Glenn Greenwald’s description of the Manichean Candidate very revealing) But this is in fact the very reason why I believe, Pat Tillman’s death wasn’t a plot to kill an inconvenient critic. I believe this administration in it’s quest to enhance the power of the executive branch to unseen and largely undemocratic levels, is adamant on not being required to inform anybody on anything they do. And there is where ineptitude comes in: They don’t even realize it when it hurts them. You can see that by their approval numbers.
And please don’t tell me the next elections will be cancelled, due to a martial war situation, brought on by the Adminstration. I don’t believe that either. There will be elections and there will be a new president and there will be change. But the new administration will quickly adopt some of the enhanced powers of the executive. More if it’s Republican, a bit less if it’s Democratic. That is the real legacy, that you should worry about. The Bush administration has accomplished the partial destruction of Democracy in your country.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:48 pmI know nothing except that Pat Tillman was killed in Afghanistan on my birthday, April 22.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:48 pmI know nothing except that Pat Tillman was killed in Afghanistan on my birthday, April 22.
Comment by tablogloid — July 28, 2007 @ 2:48 pm
Sounds to me like you know quite a bit
July 28th, 2007 at 2:49 pmFor the details, see:
“Fragging Rights.â€
Comment by AngryOne — July 28, 2007
Nice, AngryOne. This is a totally self-created mess on the part of the WH at this point. Funny, no GOOPERs individually self-destructed in public this week, but it was still another bad week for them overall. Perhaps Larry Flynt will finally reveal the name of his mystery Sen next eek to keep the trainwreck moving.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:51 pmI think were drifting over the cliff a bit with this one. calling for openness, yes. turning this into a political conspiracy, that amid the confusion and friendly fire there was a political fragging going on, with no evidence to that, is merely sensationalist speculation that should be beneath this blog.
Comment by Kevin — July 28, 2007 @ 2:07 pm
Concern troll in at #1, gee they’re efficient.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:51 pm#60 TRoS, to cite a thread from below,
.. this is a visual I could have done without…
July 28th, 2007 at 2:52 pmComment by doro — July 28, 2007 @ 2:48 pm
we’ll have to wait to see what the next election brings (or even if there will ba elections - it wouldn’t surprise me if they tried to cancel them). as for our country/constitution/economy/national stature being trashed, well that’s not news in here.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:52 pmThis Pat Tillman story has been on Alex Jones website for a couple years now
His parents have been fighting for years to get this in the mainstream
WHY NOW ???
July 28th, 2007 at 2:54 pmPerhaps Larry Flynt will finally reveal the name of his mystery Sen next eek to keep the trainwreck moving.
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — July 28, 2007 @ 2:51 pm
When’s the next issue of hustler due out?
July 28th, 2007 at 2:55 pmPat Tillman’s wounds were consistent that would come from being shot from 10 yards away. You don’t mistake an American soldier for an insurgent/terrorist from 10 yards away.
The medical examiner called for an ivestigation into foul play and the military ignored the request.
PAT TILLMAN WA MURDERED.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:56 pmLet’s see…
If there was a Democrat as President, would Rush, Coulter, Malkin and Hannity and O’Reilly be SILENT???
Nope, tjey would be SCREAMING 24/7 for investigations and IMPEACHMENT of the Democratic President.
Their SILENCE shows that they are unamerican HYPOCRITES.
Just more TREASON by AWOL COWARD war criminal Bush and the PNAC.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:56 pmThis doesnt make sense. Supposedly, there was no enemy in the area..so why was this O’Neal guy next to Tillman, hugging the ground and crying?….Was it perphaps because someone did in fact have thier guns trained on them?
I am trying to come up with theories..
http://www.forbes.com/ feeds/ ap/ 2007/ 07/ 26/ ap3958728.html
‘ It has been widely reported by the AP and others that Spc. Bryan O’Neal, who was at Tillman’s side as he was killed, told investigators that Tillman was waving his arms shouting “Cease fire, friendlies, I am Pat (expletive) Tillman, damn it!†again and again.
But the latest documents give a different account from a chaplain who debriefed the entire unit days after Tillman was killed.
The chaplain said that O’Neal told him he was hugging the ground at Tillman’s side, “crying out to God, help us. And Tillman says to him, `Would you shut your (expletive) mouth? God’s not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling …â€
July 28th, 2007 at 2:57 pmThis Pat Tillman story has been on Alex Jones website for a couple years now
His parents have been fighting for years to get this in the mainstream
WHY NOW ???
Comment by Tobey Tall — July 28, 2007 @ 2:54 pm
Because now the medical examiner has stepped forward. His evidence is shocking and horrifying. read my post at #72.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:57 pmThe only reason the fragging issue arises is because of the bizarro executive priviledge claim. I cannot for the life of me see where or how this claim is legitimate, even considering how fast and loose the administration plays with it. Obviously they were deeply involved with the subsequent coverup, and the coverup was done for political reasons.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:57 pm#60 TRoS, to cite a thread from below,
.. this is a visual I could have done without…
Comment by doro — July 28, 2007
Sorry. The thought of Rush Limbaugh naked is both gross and funny. The visual of Pat Tillman’s fatal wounds is simply gross. I think sometimes people need to visualize the reality behind the words to get the full impact of the situation. 3 shots in the forehead at close range /w an automatic rifle?
Hideous way to die, and couldn’t possibly be an accident or the result of a chaotic, random fire fight. I don’t see how that could possibly NOT been deliberate, if this is true. More than one person must have seen those wounds. What could they have possibly thought?
July 28th, 2007 at 2:58 pmTillman was killed by the BushCo Cheny/Halliburton war machine/cabal.
He was about to release some top secret info on Bush so Bush had him taken care of if you know what I mean.
Just insurance.
Now play nice boys and girls this is my sandbox.
July 28th, 2007 at 2:58 pm“The only reason the fragging issue arises is because of the bizarro executive priviledge claim. I cannot for the life of me see where or how this claim is legitimate”
Read post #72
July 28th, 2007 at 2:59 pmWhen’s the next issue of hustler due out?
Comment by Wayne A. Schneider — July 28, 2007
Hmm… Wayne? Does Jayne know you ask questions like this??
July 28th, 2007 at 2:59 pmComment by Spudge_Boy — July 28, 2007 @ 2:56 pm
I agree. And those aware of this who remained silent are complicit accessories to murder, and could be charged with murder themselves. The military does not take murder lightly. Even if a few more generals (like the one that attended the funeral) have to resign, they should still be liable for criminal prosecution in the civilian sector.
Correct me if I’m wrong, Spudge, but retiring or resigning their commissions would only protect them from UCMJ action, right? They could still face charges in the civilian court system if they were accessories?
July 28th, 2007 at 3:00 pmIf I remember correctly Pat Tillmans Parents had accepted the official story (lie) until a marine tipped them off in a letter to look closer
July 28th, 2007 at 3:00 pmThey are protecting Chomsky!!!
Comment by Epictetus — July 28, 2007 @ 2:19 pm
This is Mr. President, although I’m sure he’s aleady told everybody.
July 28th, 2007 at 3:00 pmYes it was MURDER in the 1st degree.
Bush is very evil.
July 28th, 2007 at 3:01 pmAnd until they come clean - I’m insisting it was murder, ordered by Bush himself.
July 28th, 2007 at 3:02 pm“Spudge, but retiring or resigning their commissions would only protect them from UCMJ action, right?”
Interseting question. While I was in the military, I am not a lawyer. I would think that it would fall under UCMJ, since the crime occured while they were still in the military. But, I am not 100% sure.
July 28th, 2007 at 3:02 pmComment by The Republic of Stupidity — July 28, 2007 @ 2:59 pm
Actually, I was baiting you. I truthfully don’t read it, or buy it, or have any around the house. (But I fully support his right to publish it.) I figured if I got an answer out of you, then it would mean you must be a regular buyer. ;)
I also ask because that’s likely the time we might find out that other senator’s name. That was the real point of my asking. Seriously. I don’t need the magazine. thank you.
July 28th, 2007 at 3:02 pmThere seems to be a surfeit of concern trolls on this thread today…quite a few people admonishing the rest of us to let this go, lest we be perceived as “conspiracy nuts”.
Pat Tillman was murdered. The range (10 yards) and grouping (less than 2 inches) of the three M-16 shells in his forehead leaves absolutely no doubt of this. The subsequent attempts at cover-up (claiming first that Pat died from enemy fire (AK-47), and then claiming he was accidentally killed by friendly fire (50-cal from 100 yards)) prove complicity in this murder at the highest levels of our government. Anyone who isn’t sufficiently alarmed by these facts to demand answers and punishment of the guilty parties is just as complicit as our government is.
July 28th, 2007 at 3:03 pmIf one were to make the following assumptions —
1 — That Pat Tillman was thought likely to become a poster child for the anti-war movement upon his return to the United States.
2 — That he was executed.
then the Neocons could have achieved several objectives simultaneously by taking such actions:
1 — A potentially important voice for the anti-war movement would be forever silenced.
2 — His death could be glorified and used to enhance recruiting.
3 — Anyone else thinking of doing what John Kerry did on his return from Vietnam might think better of it, and remain quiet.
4 — Anyone with knowledge of what occurred would have powerful incentives to remain silent, risking their careers and lives if they didn’t.
Executive privilege? What do they have to hide?
July 28th, 2007 at 3:03 pm80 “The military does not take murder lightly.
Iraqis dont think that ????
also thats the militaries job ???? kill and destroy
July 28th, 2007 at 3:04 pmI notice the trolls have given up on this one for the time being. Funny how they vamoose when the FACTS get a little too ugly to just laugh away or crap all over.
Wouldn’t doubt if we get swarmed ala the Conservative talkshow thread sometime soon.
July 28th, 2007 at 3:04 pmJust having a little harmless fun with you, TRoS. I gotta go now. I might have window of opportunity to fionish mowing the middle of my lawn. Or not. I think I heard thuunder. If I can just get it running for twenty minutes, I can run through it practically befor the rain comes. Hopefully it;s dry enough from this morning’s rain. Boy, wa that OT. Sorry.
July 28th, 2007 at 3:05 pmChomsky sez,
“You never need an argument against the use of violence, you need an argument for it.”
Praise Chomsky our enlightened leader
July 28th, 2007 at 3:06 pmPlease can someone of you soldiers inform Unbeliveble that I love her and her Guido’s parents too! Thank you soldiers…; )
July 28th, 2007 at 3:07 pmComment by Tobey Tall — July 28, 2007 @ 3:04 pm
You’re right. Silly of me not to be more specific. Of course being a USAF vet, I was thinking only in terms of our own military. I did not mean for it to apply to all military forces throughout the world.
Thank you for prompting me to clarify.
July 28th, 2007 at 3:07 pmOT: The Honorable Jerry Brown, Attorney General
Attorney General’s Office
California Department of Justice
Attn: Public Inquiry Unit
P.O. Box 944255
Sacramento, CA 94244-2550
Please write to AG Jerry Brown (the former governor) and ask him to prosecute Sequoia, Diebold, and Hart for CONTRACT FRAUD, seeking refunds and damages for their laughably faulty equipment,
and also to open investigations into the business ties of Registrars of Voters in California who have abused their offices LOBBYING for these illegal votefraud machines, and for their violations of the California constitution and relevant voting rights statutes. Thank you.
• Refer him to the study: http://www.sos.ca.gov/elections/elections_vsr.htm
• READ THE SUMMARY (it’s quite shocking): http://www.sos.ca.gov/ elections/ voting_systems/ ttbr/ red_overview.pdf
July 28th, 2007 at 3:07 pmThis is rediculous, not helpful at all to the diologue about the wars and will inevitably be used by the right to radicalize us.
Comment by Jim — July 28, 2007 @ 2:37 pm
I believe your “us” is at Drudge, not here.
July 28th, 2007 at 3:08 pm#
This Pat Tillman story has been on Alex Jones website for a couple years now
His parents have been fighting for years to get this in the mainstream
WHY NOW ???
Comment by Tobey Tall — July 28, 2007 @ 2:54 pm
#
The collective will to believe the previously unbelievable - is a direct result of the administration’s own lies - revealed.
* Feb. 7, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, to U.S. troops in Aviano, Italy: “It is unknowable how long that conflict will last. It could last six days, six weeks. I doubt six months.”
* March 4, Air Force Gen. Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, at a breakfast with reporters: “What you’d like to do is have it be a short, short conflict. . . . Iraq is much weaker than they were back in the ’90s,” when its forces were routed from Kuwait.
* March 11, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, in a speech to the Veterans of Foreign Wars: “The Iraqi people understand what this crisis is about. Like the people of France in the 1940s, they view us as their hoped-for liberator.”
* March 16, Vice President Cheney, on NBC’s Meet the Press: “I think things have gotten so bad inside Iraq, from the standpoint of the Iraqi people, my belief is we will, in fact, be greeted as liberators. . . . I think it will go relatively quickly, . . . (in) weeks rather than months.” He predicted that regular Iraqi soldiers would not “put up such a struggle” and that even “significant elements of the Republican Guard . . . are likely to step aside.”
* Pat Robertson: “He was just sitting there, like, I’m on top of the world, and I warned him about this war. I had deep misgivings about this war, deep misgivings. And I was trying to say, ‘Mr. President, you better prepare the American people for casualties,’ ” Robertson said.
“Oh, no, we’re not going to have any casualties,” Robertson quoted Bush as saying. ” ‘Well,’ I said, ‘it’s the way it’s going to be. . . . The Lord told me it was going to be, A, a disaster and, B, messy.’ “
July 28th, 2007 at 3:10 pmblah blah one less liberal to worry about
July 28th, 2007 at 3:11 pmThe question of whether Tillman was killed for his political views lingers greater than ever….
No we know he was killed look at the evidence leaves no doubt.
We know he was a free thinker. But it leads you to think was this guy killed possibly by people that didn’t like his political views or was he killed accidentally?
There is no such thing as an accident with Evil Bush Co.
He was EBCed.
July 28th, 2007 at 3:13 pmIt just shows us what a TRAITOR Bush REALLY is.
“executive privilege”, indeed…
July 28th, 2007 at 3:14 pm#
The only reason the fragging issue arises is because of the bizarro executive priviledge claim. I cannot for the life of me see where or how this claim is legitimate, even considering how fast and loose the administration plays with it. Obviously they were deeply involved with the subsequent coverup, and the coverup was done for political reasons.
Comment by troqua — July 28, 2007 @ 2:57 pm
The likelihood is that Karl Rove is intricately involved in this entire affair. The administration has already violated both the law, and the people’s trust, by allowing his POLITICAL OPERATIVE to operate from OUR HOUSE - with a full security clearance - on all matters political - which is virtually EVERYTHING in Rove’s mind.
The only way to prevent the PEOPLE who own that White House from discovering just how politicized it has become is to prevent EVERY inquiry into the actions of KARL ROVE,
T H E
A R C H I T E C T
July 28th, 2007 at 3:14 pmThere needs to be a full and independent investigation of Tillman’s death. EP be damned. Tillman’s family deserves to know exactly what happened to their son. This is shameful.
Good call, Faiz.
July 28th, 2007 at 3:15 pmI was killed becuase I was a snitch!
July 28th, 2007 at 3:17 pmblah blah one less liberal to worry about
Comment by crimedog — July 28, 2007 @ 3:11 pm
There is a certain level of dignity that accompanies death and bereavement. All cultures have norms which reguire honor for the deceased. Manners?
July 28th, 2007 at 3:18 pmComment by TripMaster Monkey — July 28, 2007 @ 3:03 pm
TMM, just in case I accidentally find myself considered as one of the trolls.
a) I do not doubt the death of Pat Tillman was murder.
b) I do think it’s of the utmost importance to find out what the exact circumstances of Pat Tillman’s death were and find and punish the culprit. The family needs this to be able to find peace and closure, as every family of every victim needs this.
I just don’t believe, the Administration instigated this murder. If you see the cover up as an attempt to obstruct justice and thus of complicity, I can follow you. Another reason for impeachment.
July 28th, 2007 at 3:19 pmHey 98, go say that to Kevin Tillman, you COWARD.
If you do, there will be another goddamned troll less to worry about.
You’re going to need a lot more than a purple heart bandaid after the buttwhipping you deserve, you unamerican hate-the-troops Republican bushlicker.
July 28th, 2007 at 3:21 pmWatch you mouth you dirty, cowardly, traitorous, soldier-slandering, neocon pig. Someday somebody’s going to Fu(k you up, but good.
July 28th, 2007 at 3:21 pmComment by Pat Tillman — July 28, 2007 @ 3:18 pm
Knock it off.
July 28th, 2007 at 3:22 pmThey are all (Congress) corrupt protecting the Bush cabal that is evil, lying, greedy, murderous, cold bloody killers, oil loving, money hording,evil, evil, evil men and women all of them.
TP is the only place where the truth is spoken freely and openly.
You are brave ones TP but you are putting your families in danger so be aware. Bushco is listening right now deciding who is next on the hit list.
Let the truth come we are not afraid brothers and sisters in the struggle.
Peace out.
July 28th, 2007 at 3:23 pm# 98 crimedog
just to quote my son:
“If this a****hole gets what he deserves his b*lls and pr*ck will closely resemble an English breakfast!”
July 28th, 2007 at 3:24 pmblah blah one less liberal to worry about
Comment by crimedog — July 28, 2007 @ 3:11 pm
And her you see the face of the domestic enemy living amongst us. THey are fascist Nazis that will stop at anything to try and force there idealogies on the world at the point of a weapon.
July 28th, 2007 at 3:24 pmT H E
A R C H I T E C T
Comment by ace
This one gets it and he knows too much.
I have seen this name on Karl’s “things to do list”.
Be very careful ace.
July 28th, 2007 at 3:26 pmI have seen this name on Karl’s “things to do listâ€.
Be very careful ace.
Comment by Most Henious Troll — July 28, 2007 @ 3:26 pm
Ace you’re famous. w00t!!!!
July 28th, 2007 at 3:27 pmjust to quote my son:
“If this a****hole gets what he deserves his b*lls and pr*ck will closely resemble an English breakfast!â€
Comment by doro — July 28, 2007 @ 3:24 pm
Doro,
Your son is a fine and articulate young man. ;-)
July 28th, 2007 at 3:28 pmComment by doro — July 28, 2007 @ 3:19 pm
Well elucidated, doro. I agree with you. I believe it will take more than this apparent evidence of a cover-up to move up to conspiracy to commit murder. But the cover-up makes them accesories to murder, punishable as murderers themselves. But we do need to learn the whole truth, from everybody involved.
Perhaps we could let the family learn the entire truth and, based on how it affects them, let them decide who should be prosecuted. Not sent to jail, but put through the legal system like everyone else. Unless someone knows them personally and knows differently, I could imagine that perhaps the cover-up of the lie was worse then the lie itself to them, and they were more harmed by that than by the initial lie. Or perhaps the reverse. Give them the truth, and let them decide against whom charges should be pressed.
But someone sure as hell better get more than just a goddamn demotion out of this!
July 28th, 2007 at 3:28 pmPat Tillman was killed to be an example to the other soldiers.
July 28th, 2007 at 3:30 pmWe know this.
You’re going to need a lot more than a purple heart bandaid after the buttwhipping you deserve, you unamerican hate-the-troops Republican bushlicker.
Comment by Paul in LA — July 28, 2007 @ 3:21 pm
Well said Paul. Crimepuppy had me tongue-tied. The nerve of these neocons, cheering on the death of a true patriot. I was speechless.
July 28th, 2007 at 3:31 pmIn every sense, each one of those dead soldiers have been killed by US admin.
July 28th, 2007 at 3:34 pmWHY NOW release this info
because it will take away that all important 1% from Bush making him the worst president in American history
July 28th, 2007 at 3:36 pmDoro,
Your son is a fine and articulate young man. ;-)
Comment by Zooey — July 28, 2007 @ 3:28 pm
and
Comment by Wayne A. Schneider — July 28, 2007 @ 3:28 pm
Yeah Zooey, but as he’s only 10 I sometmes wonder, whether he grows up a little fast. ;-))
Wayne,
Amen to that. To get the truth to this family is worth fighting an blogging for. And that’s why it is a good thing for TP to have covered the topic.
btw. It’s 9:30 p.m. over here and that loudmouth ten year old is still not in bed. I guess I’ll have to make sure he gets there. Maybe I’m around again later.
Enjoy yourselves!
July 28th, 2007 at 3:36 pmblah blah one less liberal to worry about
Comment by crimedog
This comment, even joking, shows the contempt these people has regarding human life. These people should be wiped off the planet.
July 28th, 2007 at 3:37 pmYou are brave ones TP but you are putting your families in danger so be aware. Bushco is listening right now deciding who is next on the hit list.
Let the truth come we are not afraid brothers and sisters in the struggle.
Peace out.
Comment by Most Henious Troll — July 28, 2007 @ 3:23 pm
If not US, then WHO?
If not NOW, then WHEN?
This country did not become great because the people were afraid or complacent. If TP and other progressive sites are the only citizens speaking truth to power, then we need to speak loud and clear about what we know for certain and what we suspect.
July 28th, 2007 at 3:38 pmsorry. have.
July 28th, 2007 at 3:38 pmI disagree. We need to rub the GOPs noses in their own shiite 24/7 until we get the truth. Thanks for your CONCERN Jim.
July 28th, 2007 at 3:39 pm115/ Pat Tillman was killed to be an example to the other soldiers.
We know this.
could also be the reason The White house has cited executive privilege in refusing to turn over records that would verify how much Bush knew.
In order to shut the troops up STILL, keep them scared
July 28th, 2007 at 3:40 pmBe very careful ace.
Comment by Most Henious Troll — July 28, 2007 @ 3:26 pm
Well CT I see you were paying attention when I gave you this name the other day. And since you’ve been after ace for monhs you copletely blew your cover.
Ace and other TP regulars are not like you, we’re not afraid of our shadows. And we’re not afraid of you and your scare tactics. Nice try at an enormously evil, unAmerican ploy.
July 28th, 2007 at 3:43 pmPat Tillman was killed to be an example to the other soldiers.
We know this.
Comment by Most Henious Troll — July 28, 2007 @ 3:30 pm
CT, most heinous troll is what you are. You are also trying to intimidate poster by pointing out threats while pretending to be one of us. You are a Fearmongering Facist. Why don’t you use that name next.
July 28th, 2007 at 3:46 pmWhy don’t you use that name next.
Comment by shane — July 28, 2007
Nice call, Shane. That was pretty much my reaction to that comment too.
Unfortunatley, it stays on this thread, and someoen like BillO can now latch onto it and claim this is what the “Libruls” believe.
July 28th, 2007 at 3:49 pmsorry to repost but I’m wondering if anybody has any theories that jive with the facts as they were recounted by the debriefer….
This doesnt make sense. Supposedly, there was no enemy in the area..so why was this O’Neal guy next to Tillman, hugging the ground and crying?….Was it perphaps because someone did in fact have thier guns trained on them?
I am trying to come up with theories..
http://www.forbes.com/ feeds/ ap/ 2007/ 07/ 26/ ap3958728.html
‘ It has been widely reported by the AP and others that Spc. Bryan O’Neal, who was at Tillman’s side as he was killed, told investigators that Tillman was waving his arms shouting “Cease fire, friendlies, I am Pat (expletive) Tillman, damn it!†again and again.
But the latest documents give a different account from a chaplain who debriefed the entire unit days after Tillman was killed.
The chaplain said that O’Neal told him he was hugging the ground at Tillman’s side, “crying out to God, help us. And Tillman says to him, `Would you shut your (expletive) mouth? God’s not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling …â€
July 28th, 2007 at 3:50 pmUnfortunatley, it stays on this thread, and someoen like BillO can now latch onto it and claim this is what the “Libruls†believe.
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — July 28, 2007 @ 3:49 pm
Luckily I believe the more O’Lielly froths from this stuff, the more crazy he looks. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. And I think BillO may not be achieving his desired purpose.
July 28th, 2007 at 4:04 pmHi all. I have a few thoughts to offer now.
It is impossible for ANY marksman, under ANY conditions, with ANY weapon, to place three shots into a head sized target without identifying the target and taking careful aim. It is impossible to accidentally place three shots in a head sized target. The only way the described results could have occurred is that someone deliberately shot Corporal Tillman while he was unaware of an imminent threat or was immobilized.
I think it most likely that he was intentionally killed by person, or persons, unknown for personal reasons. It is incomprehensible that no one has been charged for this gross dereliction of duty that may amount to cold blooded, premeditated, murder.
While the “players” are not all known; released information proves that direct knowledge of this incident has been intentionally concealed and misrepresented. (NOTE: if you don’t think that the punishment of seven military officers constitutes proof of misconduct, there’s no need for you to read further. Or read anything else. Ever.)
As fun as it may be to speculate; it is premature, and possibly irresponsible, to make assumptions of a politically motivated conspiratorial execution. The thing to keep in mind though is that there is no legal difference between previous knowledge, and subsequent knowledge, when it comes to a murder charge. Those who intentionally corrupt information in a murder investigation may be charged as accessories to the crime. And they need not have been involved in the planning and execution of the crime.
In short. It need never be proved that a person to have participated in a murder to suffer the full penalties for the crime. All that is needed is proof that the investigation was willfully impeded to protect the guilty parties.
Claims of executive privilege, as it relates to this case, seem highly irregular and inappropriate. However, I see no reason to believe that the WH is concealing information that would be tantamount to aiding and abetting an individual murderer. Rather, it is far more likely that they are attempting to protect themselves from political/professional embarrassment over their, continual, gross incompetence. Make no mistake; it is likely that various parties involved in this shameful matter will face criminal prosecution.
July 28th, 2007 at 4:08 pmBased on Tillman’s final words, ““Would you shut your f*cking mouth? God’s not going to help you; you need to do something for yourself, you sniveling…”, he knew what was coming. He knew he was about to be murdered by whomever ended up doing so. Why would he know this was coming?
Wanna bet he wasn’t even killed by fellow Rangers?
Who else is on the scene in Iraq, has a massive military presence, has no oversight conducted on them, and has a vested political interest in maintaining their presence in Iraq due to the President’s policies, and, because they are profit-based, additionally have an economic interest in maintaining said conflict? Who could U.S. soldiers be killed by, and have it be technically considered “friendly fire”, other than our foreign allies, and these, domestic so-called “allies”?
Who else would cause an Army Ranger like Tillman’s squad-member to react in an extraordinarily unusual manner for a soldier so well-trained? Who else would be allowed to get within 10 yards of an Army Ranger position without drawing hostile fire?
How much would you like to bet that Blackwater was hired to murder Pat Tillman?
July 28th, 2007 at 4:29 pmAnd I think BillO may not be achieving his desired purpose.
Comment by shane — July 28, 2007
I hope you’re right, Shane. I’m starting to wonder if some of the nastier posts that get left here are done simply to make TP look bad. This whole “troll” thing sure is strange, isn’t it?
I also noticed taht the trolls have abandoned this thread completely, for the time being. Not too many good ways to spin this mess, huh?
July 28th, 2007 at 4:37 pmpete, you are awesome. You have put my own thoughts into a thoughtful, reasoned post that I could not. Thanks.
July 28th, 2007 at 4:38 pmModeration:
Or Mossad?
July 28th, 2007 at 4:43 pmHow much would you like to bet that Blackwater was hired to murder Pat Tillman?
Comment by Moderation — July 28, 2007
I understand why you’re saying this, but it is speculation at this time. We don’t need to do anything here, other than keep bringing it up. This has become a runaway train for the Bushies and the end of the line would appear to be the WH. This is going to be ugly.
July 28th, 2007 at 4:43 pmEven if not hired to do the job, and even if it truly were an accident, or the actions of one or two “gung-ho” individuals, if it became known that Tillman was killed by a mercenary company that has no oversight conducted on it, and is currently answerable to no one. perhaps demands for oversight on our mercenary outfits would shine too bright a spotlight where the administration wants to stay in the shadows.
The needn’t be a single actual connection with the administration over such an incident for them to want it covered up. The activities of the mercenary forces in Iraq connected to Blackwater and similar corporations are a virtual unknown. They could be committing 99% of the war crimes over there done by “our side” and we wouldn’t know it because they have no legitimate oversight conducted on them. These outfits need to be reigned in completely. Really, merc units like Blackwater should be outlawed in this country.
No corporate armies. Bad, bad news, that.
July 28th, 2007 at 4:45 pmUnfortunately, “fragged” was the first thing that crossed my mind when I heard Tillman’s death was from “friendly fire”. He was too true a warrior, and too astute a man, to belong to the cirscumstances history provided him.
Funny how real heroes contrast with those who proclaim heroism.
July 28th, 2007 at 4:49 pmI understand why you’re saying this, but it is speculation at this time. We don’t need to do anything here, other than keep bringing it up. This has become a runaway train for the Bushies and the end of the line would appear to be the WH. This is going to be ugly.
Comment by The Republic of Stupidity — July 28, 2007 @ 4:43 pm
Absolutely I have no evidence, and phrased it as a question quite purposefully. It is complete speculation. But it is one of the few reasons I’ve been able to come up with for why the admin would use Executive Privilege in this affair.
The only reasons I’ve been able to come up with for the citing of EP in this case are:
1) The administration ordered it. This is the least likely, and the most horrific if we find it to be true.
2) A few rogue elements in the U. S. military decided to do this of their own accord. The administration suppressed it, and then tried to capitalize on it politically.
3) On of our intelligence agencies decided to do this of their own accord. The administration suppressed it, and then tried to capitalize on it politically.
4) One of our mercenary outfits decided to do this of their own accord. The administration suppressed it, and then tried to capitalize on it politically. This, the U.S. military option, and the intelligence asset option all fall within the same general premise, but each come from different sectors, and each brings with it unique implications.
That’s it. We know it was some sort of friendly, close-range attack that Tillman did not have time to retaliate against. He knew something was amiss, he knew he was about to die, and his fellow Ranger acted extraordinarily odd for such a highly-trained specialist, especially if it were Iraqis, Al-Qaeda or any other insurgent group present in the region. Something freaked that soldier out, and that something carried an M-16, and got within 10 yards of those Rangers without being fired upon.
July 28th, 2007 at 4:57 pmModeration, I don’t enjoy bursting your bubble but, Corporal Tillman was killed in Afghanistan and I don’t believe there were “contractors” in the area. I think it far more likely that an unidentified person, or persons, in Tillman’s unit killed him for their own reasons.
However, this doesn’t excuse the shameful (criminal?) way the incident was handled by the military and government officials involved.
July 28th, 2007 at 4:57 pmAfghanistan, right, sorry. And I read the whole series of articles, too. Ok, then scratch the Blackwater. It was military, or it was intelligence, but the point that whomever it was carried an M-16, and got within 10 yards of those Rangers without being fired upon still stands.
Afghanistan, right. Gah.
July 28th, 2007 at 5:00 pmSpent the last couple of hours cogitating on why the president would claim executive privilege when it comes to an investigation of Tillman’s death - something which he should believe that he owes to the Tillman family and all americans as their employee.
For me, it distills down to one of two things: 1) either he was personally involved in the coverup or Rove was which becomes a clear ‘obstruction of justice’ charge, aka “yet another impeachable offense” or 2) this death travels much deeper than just some renegade individual in his unit who disliked him and the fact that he was planning to meet with Chomsky was somehow threatening to this administration.
Either way, the claim of exec. privilege is an indirect indictment of Bush himself.
July 28th, 2007 at 5:04 pmAs for three shots closely spaced, would that not be the result of a quick burst of fire from an M-16? This is likely the theory they are using to establish the distance from the shooter to the victim.
July 28th, 2007 at 5:05 pmOf course, option #1 is the “lesser of two very grave offenses - lesser of two evils”. One is a criminal charge of murder and the other is obstruction of justice. One is punishable in prison; the other will simply rid this country of this despot much sooner. And this is only one of the high crimes & misdemeanors which he has committed. Either way, whether it be The Hague or another international war crimes tribunal, I see a prison cell in this man’s future.
July 28th, 2007 at 5:07 pmVeritas:
All roads point to Rove’s involvement. Whether it was his idea, or his coverup story, it’s the POLITICAL ADVISER inside the White House.
They are protecting Rove - the only question is, to what degree.
It’s not beyond him to have ordered the hit
July 28th, 2007 at 5:07 pmPete: A claim of executive privilege in this case ARE highly irregular and the most indicting thing he could have done to himself. One has to wonder why? I guess he fears his complicity in it all were he to cooperate with an investigation.
July 28th, 2007 at 5:08 pm130. comment by moderation.
NOTE TO MODERATION: Tillman was killed in Afghanistan.
July 28th, 2007 at 5:09 pmI would say that the cover-up of this and the subsequent disinformation circulated to the Tillman Family are not just embarrassing to this administration - but a clear ‘obstruction of justice” charge as well.
When are the hearings slated? Next week? Guess that’s why Bush will begin his vacation for a month??
July 28th, 2007 at 5:10 pmHey, Acey! I love it when I can find you on here! Then I know that we’re all in for some primo, factual information. Yep, this has the Rovian fingerprint all over it, doesn’t it? If Rove knew about it or even ordered it, you KNOW that Dubya was in on it as well…just as he was in on the Plame outing. It’s time to end this #hit going on…the people have defiinitely HAD ENOUGH~
July 28th, 2007 at 5:11 pmNOTE TO MODERATION: Tillman was killed in Afghanistan.
Comment by tablogloid — July 28, 2007 @ 5:09 pm
Read pose #138, above. Unlike some, I’ll gladly admit when I am wrong.
July 28th, 2007 at 5:12 pmI read somewhere that the Coroner (some doc) attempted to begin an investigation into Tillman’s death and the investigation was squashed. By whom? When? This, also, has Rove’s prints all over it.
July 28th, 2007 at 5:12 pm“If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for such time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally important for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the truth is the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, THE TRUTH IS THE GREATEST ENEMY OF THE STATE.”
– Joseph Goebbels, German Minister of Propaganda, 1933-1945
By: okiemon on September 27, 2006 at 10:24am
“As people do better, they start voting like Republicans - unless they have too much education and vote Democratic, which proves there can be too much of a good thing.”
Karl Rove.
“See in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda.”
GEORGE w. BUSH
Here’s a great comparison of Goebbels to Bush:
http://www.prisonplanet.com/ articles/ may2005/ 260505newbushism.htm
July 28th, 2007 at 5:13 pmScooter took the quick hit to end the investigation from running up the chain of command to W for the Plame outing; I don’t think it’s going to work again this time. I think Bush’s days are numbered as are Rove’s and, for all intents & purposes, he will return from vacation to a support figure in the teens.
July 28th, 2007 at 5:14 pmIf anyone here has a gift for spiritual work, they know that Rove is the reincarnation of Goebels. We know precisely whose energy we are dealing with in Bush - Hitler all over again.
July 28th, 2007 at 5:15 pmThere’s nothing new or even remotely intelligent or creative about what Rove has done. He’s plagiarized the playbook for the Third Reich and has the “cliff notes” from Joseph Goebbels at his bedside. He’s an empty shell actually.
July 28th, 2007 at 5:16 pmhttp://www.catalystmagazine.net/issues/story.cfm?story=475
The Cult of Leo Strauss: Leo Strauss
Could his broken heart have been the seed the grew into the war against Iraq?
By Kitty Clark
The celebrated philosopher-king of the neoconservatives forging America’s radical new foreign policy was a controversial philosophy professor at the University of Chicago. Leo Strauss, who died in 1973, was little known outside of academic and think-tank circles until this year, but the influence of his ideas has long been felt.
“Why are so many Straussians in the Reagan Administration?” asked Newsweek in a 1987 article titled “The Cult of Leo Strauss.” “Some of their critics suggest that the brotherhood is committed to no less than halting the drift of modern democracy.” The Straussians, observed historian Gordon S. Wood in the New York Review of Books the following year, are the biggest phenomenon in 20th-century academia.
Strauss’ ideas emerge from his life experience. Strauss fled Nazi Germany for the safety of America in 1937, and blamed not fascism but the Weimar Republic’s liberal democratic ideals for permitting the rise of Nazism. A classicist, he taught the works of Plato, Machiavelli, Nietzsche and Hobbes, instructing his students to look for secret “codes” in the texts. Truth, he believed, was the preserve of an elite few who might have to tell “noble lies” - an idea he lifted from Plato - to the uncomprehending masses. Are political entities, asked the charismatic Strauss, “not compelled to use force and fraud… if they are to prosper?”
“‘Weapons of mass destruction’ would be a noble lie,” says Shadia Drury, a scholar who has written two books on Strauss, “because you’re convinced this [war on Iraq] is the right thing to do and you are the wise few, the elite, who are leading the stupid masses, and the stupid masses aren’t going to agree to sacrifice their lives for nothing - for the glory of the nation - unless their own survival is at stake.” So you tell them their own survival is at stake.
Strauss believed that democracy, however flawed, was best defended by an ignorant public pumped up on nationalism and religion. Only a militantly nationalist state could deter human aggression, and since most people were naturally self-absorbed and hedonistic, Strauss believed that the only way to transform them was to make them love their nation enough to die for it. Such nationalism requires an external threat - and if one cannot be found, it must be manufactured.
While not bound by religion himself, Strauss rather cynically promoted religion as a tool to maintain an acquiescent population. Authority and discipline are key values for Straussians, and the masses need religion to keep them in line. “Marx called religion the opium of the people,” says Drury. “Strauss thought the people needed their opium.”
Neocon