Data mining prompted fight over spying.
By on Jul 29th, 2007 at 11:49 am
Data mining prompted fight over spying.
The New York Times reports today, “A 2004 dispute over the National Security Agency’s secret surveillance program that led top Justice Department officials to threaten resignation involved computer searches through massive electronic databases.” While President Bush has acknowledged eavesdropping without warrants, he has never disclosed that the administration may have “records of the phone calls and e-mail messages of millions of Americans.”
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Anyone who thinks that George Bush is not spying on Americans has a few screws loose.
Why do you think that he issued his Executive Order saying that he can confiscate the property of any American “he” finds is somehow threatening Iraq. His Executive Order is so vague, he could say that organizing an anti war rally is “threatening Iraq”. And how is he going to find out who is organizing those rallies? By spying on Americans!
July 29th, 2007 at 11:55 amOf course they do. This is what Karl Rove meant by “microtargeting.”
July 29th, 2007 at 12:07 pmNancy sharpened my skills to surrender.
July 29th, 2007 at 12:07 pmMexipeach Gonzalez!
July 29th, 2007 at 12:08 pmThe real story here is just what exactly the “data mining” issue was.
What about data mining would be so egregious as to cause the FBI director and others to threaten to resign?
Could it be that something predicted in here a long time ago, was accurate? Could it be that the president ordered the recording of ALL US phone calls into huge data warehousing facilities where key word searches could be ran against any phone call in the country?
July 29th, 2007 at 12:09 pmlet’s cut to the chase… data mining is PRECISELY what produces grist for the entire surveillance program… data mining – what i refer to as sniffing – is an automated program designed to “sniff” through multi-terabytes of real-time electronic transactions and untold mountains of stored data looking for certain pre-programmed patterns – words, phrases, data-strings, and hex code – which, if found, are then spit out for further analysis… if further analysis, probably also automated, confirms the initial analysis, the information is further spit out to a human analyst who makes a determination about what to do with it… the determination may include such options as further investigation, real-time data interception (wiretaps, et al), additional database searches, personal surveillance, etc… this is happening 24/7/365 and has been going on for years… the bush administration is simply banking on the fact that most members of congress, most journalists and most americans are simply too stupid to figure out what’s REALLY going on…
p.s. and, in case you would like to see how it’s all done, click here…
And, yes, I DO take it personally
July 29th, 2007 at 12:14 pmRemember in 2003, CNN did a special taking us inside of NSA and the “new” surveillence plans the president had authorized with his “signing statements”?
Remember how they told us that “whenever someone on the phone in the US says the words “Bomb” “President” “Airplane” and others in certain combinations, computers at NSA begins to record the converstation.”?
Remember that? (if not then maybe you’ll remember they also told you that in the movie “Enemy of the State”)
Now, heres the question.
IF they can “START” recording whenever certain keywords are spoken, then HOW did they KNOW, that you said those words, unless they were ALREADY recording the conversation?
Are we learning yet?
July 29th, 2007 at 12:15 pmComment by Wayne — July 29, 2007 @ 11:57 am
Why be aggresive towards Nancy? She’s only atttempting to act in the spirit of bipartisanship.
July 29th, 2007 at 12:15 pmspying!spying??? read this bush you m**********r!I AM SO SICK OF ALL OF THIS SHIT.SOMEONE PLEASE PUT A STOP TO THIS IDIOT’S REIGN OF TERROR.
July 29th, 2007 at 12:16 pmIF NSA can “START†recording whenever certain keywords are spoken, then HOW did they KNOW, that you said those words?
July 29th, 2007 at 12:17 pmIF NSA can “START†recording whenever certain keywords are spoken, then HOW did they KNOW, that you said those words?
:|
When you can answer that question, you’ll understand why the Director of the FBI threatened to resign once he learned the scope of the program.
July 29th, 2007 at 12:19 pmI am confused. Someone help me out here. The data mining as reported in the NYT….is it part of the TSP? If it is not, is Abu G cleared of perjury?
July 29th, 2007 at 12:23 pmThis is totally illegal and an impeachable offense. Didn’t Nixon resign for this very thing? Spying illegally on political foes?? This guy is doing it against our citizens and without warrants. I’d say that Bush’s gig is up, Nancy!
July 29th, 2007 at 12:32 pmI watched a good movie last night. “Enemy of the State” with WIll Smith and Gene Hackman. It came out in 1998 but is pretty prophetic. I hadn’t seen it in a long time. This time there was an awful lot that caught my attention. There are an awful lot of parallels to what has been happening since 9/11..
July 29th, 2007 at 12:34 pmThis spy program gets uglier with each new aspect. It’s ALL illegal regardness of how you dice it which is precisely why the FISA laws were drawn up. Let’s get on with the impeachment proceedings. Maybe he won’t even return from his month long vacation once he realizes that the cat is now out of the bag and regardless of whether Gonzocchio perjured himself or not, Bush ordered this illegal abuse of power. It’s time for Bush/Cheney to be impeached together!
July 29th, 2007 at 12:34 pm#13 In answer to your question, the answer to that is “no”. Either way Gonzo lied – either during his first round of testimony when he said that what he went to Ashcroft’s bed was the “same spy program”….. or his contradicted statement regarding “another spy program”. On one of these two occasions, the transcripts can be used as prima facie evidence of perjury. He’s toast regardless.
July 29th, 2007 at 12:36 pmLeave Nancy alone.
July 29th, 2007 at 12:36 pmI see the admin is using selective leaking of classified information in order to try to clear their illegal activities.
July 29th, 2007 at 12:37 pmI’ve heard that Abu Gonzo goes under Bush’s bus to hell next. It’s purported to occur sometime within the next week or two. Then the people can remove the next two liars in chief.
July 29th, 2007 at 12:37 pmjust to add.. The parallels have to do with domestic spying/surveillance by the NSA and trying to pass legislation (similar to the Patriot Act) that limits the rights of citizens.
July 29th, 2007 at 12:38 pm#17 Okay Mr. Pee…your hackneyed “schtick” is obvious here.
July 29th, 2007 at 12:38 pm#18 Won’t work this time. They’ve got Gonzo on perjury with either testimony. He’s clearly gotten himself into the proverbial corner now. And he’s taking down his boss with him.
July 29th, 2007 at 12:39 pmIF they can “START†recording whenever certain keywords are spoken, then HOW did they KNOW, that you said those words, unless they were ALREADY recording the conversation?
Are we learning yet?
Comment by BARTLEBEE — July 29, 2007 @ 12:15 pm
They’ve been listening for a long time….
July 29th, 2007 at 12:40 pmJG: Connect those dots and connect them now….9/11….Patriot Act….dissolution of rights…..condoning torture….Abu G…..illegal spying on citizens….oops, and, of course, the Iraq War – a highly illegal and amoral occupation based on smoke & mirrors….did I leave anything significant out??
July 29th, 2007 at 12:40 pmComment by veritas — July 29, 2007 @ 12:38 pm
CT in da house.
July 29th, 2007 at 12:41 pmHey Zooey! I believe that you’re right and this spying on citizens began immediately upon Bush taking office and has absolutely nothing to do with the war on terror. That could be why the Dems are dragging their feet – if they have anything the least bit shady in their closet, they know that they’ll be outed. Last time I looked, I think it was called blackmail.
July 29th, 2007 at 12:42 pmYeparoo….we know all of your monikers, Mr. Pee.
July 29th, 2007 at 12:42 pmIf they just replace Gonzo with another one of their monkey boys in order to appease the publication and in an attempt to get the bad press and attention to their illegal activites to die down, it won’t solve the basic problem which is the illegal activities by Bush and Cheney (and Rove). I think the attention has to be INTENSE in order to drive the impeachment momentum forward. As long as more light gets shown onto their illegal activites, the more we learn and the more grounds we have to impeach them. They need to GO! All of them.
July 29th, 2007 at 12:42 pmAll negative comments regarding our Speaker of the House cut-off NOW.
July 29th, 2007 at 12:43 pmSay…
CT,
Was that you on the Gorby thread last night, or was it an impostor?
July 29th, 2007 at 12:43 pmYeparoo….we know all of your monikers, Mr. Pee.
Comment by veritas — July 29, 2007 @ 12:42 pm
July 29th, 2007 at 12:45 pm—-
No you don’t.
Comment by veritas — July 29, 2007 @ 12:42 pm
The (future) president and CT reside in the same state. They do not, however, consist of a single person.
July 29th, 2007 at 12:45 pmHas anyone else experienced all the clicking on the phone at various times? I certainly have. It was unnerving at first, but I don’t really care any more. It just makes me mad. It isn’t all the time, it is mostly when I am talking with particular people. Maybe it is paranoia, maybe it is the phone service, but I doubt it. I know it isn’t my phone itself because it sometimes does it on my cell phone too.
July 29th, 2007 at 12:46 pmComment by Mr. President — July 29, 2007 @ 12:43 pm
That was not me, Mr. President. That, I can assure the trolling/libetrolling community of.
July 29th, 2007 at 12:47 pm#22 Oh I KNOW the AG is guilty of perjury, just pointing out that the admin’s spin machine is working overtime and believe that their spin should be pointed out any and every time.
July 29th, 2007 at 12:47 pmAnd yet ALL their emails are OFF LIMITS.
If only the government had a NSA program that could spy on them. To expose ALL their corruption.
I guess government ONLY goes sooooo far!
After all they’re privileged!!!
July 29th, 2007 at 12:48 pmFrom Glenn Greenwald’s post this am: “This leak would be arguably exculpatory for Gonzales only if it reported that data mining was the only source of the Comey/Ashcroft objections, not merely one of the sources. But both articles explicitly states that there were other grounds for those objections besides data mining, leaving open — rather than resolving — the only relevant questions: did those objections, contrary to Gonzales’ sworn testimony, relate to the “TSP’s” warrantless eavesdropping?
July 29th, 2007 at 12:48 pmThese articles are expressly unable to answer that question, the only one that matters. Therefore, it proves nothing as to whether Gonzales lied when he testified that the Ashcroft/Comey objections had nothing to do with the “TSP.” That is just basic, obvious logic. END QUOTE.
Here is a link for the Glenn’s post over at salon, well worth reading.:
http://www.salon.com/news/cookie756.html?http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2007/07/29/data_mining/index.html
Comment by Zooey — July 29, 2007 @ 12:45 pm
STOP IT!
RICE/PELOSI 2008!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
July 29th, 2007 at 12:48 pmHats for Sale! Hats for Sale!
Hats for Sale! Tin Foil Hats for Sale!
July 29th, 2007 at 12:49 pmSorry here is the working linkie…
July 29th, 2007 at 12:49 pmhttp://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/?last_story=/opinion/greenwald/2007/07/29/data_mining/
if they have anything the least bit shady in their closet, they know that they’ll be outed
I have thought this for some time. It is how they keep the top Reublicans in line as well. In the book “Vice”, when Cheney was supposedly doing a search for a possible running mate for Bush, he made a list of the top Rep. choices who might pose a challenge to himself, did extensive checks on them and had them fill out VERY extensive questionaires, and made them expose ANYTHING in their past that might be used against them. Then, he picked himself. At that point, anyone who from that list who might challenge anything he was doing, he had the goods on them to shut them up.
July 29th, 2007 at 12:50 pmThey prepared for this..
Comment by SURRENDERA MONKISTA! — July 29, 2007 @ 12:47 pm
Yeah, that’s what I thought.
July 29th, 2007 at 12:50 pmHey Zooey! I believe that you’re right and this spying on citizens began immediately upon Bush taking office and has absolutely nothing to do with the war on terror. That could be why the Dems are dragging their feet – if they have anything the least bit shady in their closet, they know that they’ll be outed. Last time I looked, I think it was called blackmail.
Comment by veritas — July 29, 2007 @ 12:42 pm
I’m sure that was the primary focus before 9/11. When 9/11 occurred, they must have been dancing around their offices, because now they would not get caught AND a certain percentage of the American people would practically beg them to spy on us.
One thing politicians forget is how forgiving the American people can be — or could be, we’re kind of pissed off now.
If they do have blackmail on Nancy Pelosi — but she came forward and did the right thing anyway, knowing she’d be exposed — she might not re-elected in her district, but she’d be a hero to the American people. The ones with functioning brains, anyway.
July 29th, 2007 at 12:51 pmThere are plenty of Americans who SHOULD be spied upon.
The evidence for that is in the fact our country’s been going to hell in a handbasket ever since the 2006 elections. Who voted in these traitors? Who are these traitors?
July 29th, 2007 at 12:52 pmSmoke and mirrors. Quibbling. Dissembling. Last gasp. The real issue is that even if a paperweight replaced gonzo at this point it would begin to prosecute republicans on a scale almost unimaginable. They’ll say anything to eke out some more time and the congress and the newspapers are doing this country a grave disservice by allowing this outrage to drag on.
July 29th, 2007 at 12:53 pmYou know, Cheney made up his own shadow NSA program (as per the same book “Vice”). I wonder what connection there is to that with all the people who suddenly were wanting to resign over what they were doing (that they can’t talk about because it is top secret)?
July 29th, 2007 at 12:53 pmGORE/SHEEHAN 2008!
July 29th, 2007 at 12:54 pmGORE/SHARPTON 2008!!
July 29th, 2007 at 12:55 pmCONTINUITY-OF-THE-GOVERNMENT/2008!!
July 29th, 2007 at 12:56 pmGeorge W. Bin Laden for the HAGUE in 2009!!
July 29th, 2007 at 12:57 pmWho are these traitors?
By traitors, certainly you are not referring to the Dems who got voted in last November which then gave themselves (the Dems) the majority in both houses of Congress, so that they now finally have the ability to do their Constitutional duty of oversight which is FINALLY starting to expose the vast corruption throughout this Administration??
July 29th, 2007 at 12:58 pmYou mean THOSE traitors?
Gore/Clark 2008!!
July 29th, 2007 at 12:58 pmI’m begging the masses, please leave our Keeper of the House ALONE!
July 29th, 2007 at 12:58 pmComment by upside00 — July 29, 2007 @ 12:58 pm
Cheney/Pacemaker 2008!!!!!!!!!!!!
(Reminder: Let Nancy be!)
July 29th, 2007 at 1:00 pmIF NSA can “START†recording whenever certain keywords are spoken, then HOW did they KNOW, that you said those words?
Comment by BARTLEBEE — July 29, 2007 @ 12:17 pm
Easy,
July 29th, 2007 at 1:00 pmThey are listening at the front end of a delay line and start recording at the output once a key word or phrase occurs at the front end. Any conversation not contained in the delay line is lost to the recording.
You mean THOSE traitors?
If they’re responsible for the current irresponsible assault on our leadership and our right to defend ourselves against the terrorist threat and oil crisis by any means necessary, then yes. Exactly those democrats.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:00 pmHere is some more analysis from TPM:
July 29th, 2007 at 1:03 pmhttp://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/003787.php
#
Why is the word Free used so much by Dems?
I don,t understand it.
Free is what Bush is Supporting and spreading throughout the middle east.
You all are confusing me.
Comment by GoTFreeDUMB? — July 29, 2007 @ 12:50 pm
#
When you Confuse me, a light gos off, telling me something is very,VERY wrong!
Comment by GoTFreeDUMB? — July 29, 2007 @ 1:01 pm
#
Any Comments?
Comment by GoTFreeDUMB? — July 29, 2007 @ 1:02 pm
July 29th, 2007 at 1:03 pmFor all the latest news, key reports, document releases and other essential materials surrounding the NSA illegal domestic surveillance scandal, see:
July 29th, 2007 at 1:05 pm“The NSA Domestic Surveillance Scandal Documents Center.”
Comment by Zooey — July 29, 2007 @ 12:55 pm
That’s funny, she wants a dimwit named Al Sharpton running the country.
Credentials?
July 29th, 2007 at 1:07 pmThey’ve been listening for a long time….
Comment by Zooey — July 29, 2007 @ 12:40 pm
Well not that long. Not to all of us anyway. Think about it. Right around 2000, due to mergers of the telecommunicatons giants, Clinton authorized the developement of a domestic intelligence program based on “new technology”. He didn’t authorize its use, just its development.
Bush, right around 911, authorized the use of this “new technological capability”. I remember the announcement. He spoke of “giant communication switches”, and “digital storgage”. (I remember because they seemed like big words for him). Then the CNN story broke, where they took us inside of NSA and showed us that they could record any converstation in the country is “certain keywords were spoken”.
After viewing the story, I was left asking myself, “if they could START recording when certain keywords are spoken, then HOW did they KNOW, that those words were spoken in the first place?”
Then I coupled that with what Bush had said about the central switching centers in the local teclo’s, and I said “ahhhhh”.
Do you see what I am saying Zooey?
They’re not listening to a few calls.
They’re wiretapping the entire country.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:09 pmThat’s funny, she wants a dimwit named Al Sharpton running the country.
Credentials?
Comment by CT Scantonocity — July 29, 2007 @ 1:07 pm
No more dim than RICE/PELOSI 2008!
I was making fun of your 2008 dream-ticket.
It’s called humor laced with heavy sarcasm. You can look it up.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:13 pmEasy,
They are listening at the front end of a delay line and start recording at the output once a key word or phrase occurs at the front end. Any conversation not contained in the delay line is lost to the recording.
Comment by WaltTheMan — July 29, 2007 @ 1:00 pm
Which would mean that they are eavesdropping with equipment, on ALL calls in the US.
Which is my point.
I only disagree with your statement on a technological level. I doubt they could feed all the calls in the US through keyword listeners “real time”. It would be impossible to apply that technology to every call without causing some major disruptions to the phone service.
But they COULD just offload all the calls once they pass through digital switches, and ware house the data on giant SANS networks, which could then be cataloged for later screening based on whatever parameters they want.
Data Mining is what Mueller talked about, as did Bush and Gonzo the liar.
Data Mining does not occur real time. It occurs with “warehoused” data, which is data thats already been stored.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:16 pmDo you see what I am saying Zooey?
They’re not listening to a few calls.
They’re wiretapping the entire country.
Comment by BARTLEBEE — July 29, 2007 @ 1:09 pm
That’s what I’m saying as well, Bart.
Even an hour of this spying is too much — it’s been almost 6 years since 9/11….
July 29th, 2007 at 1:16 pmIt’s called humor laced with heavy sarcasm. You can look it up.
Comment by Zooey
You can lead a horse to water, Zooey . . .
July 29th, 2007 at 1:16 pmYou can lead a horse to water, Zooey . . .
Comment by gummitch — July 29, 2007 @ 1:16 pm
I’m an incurable optimist, I guess… :)
July 29th, 2007 at 1:17 pmThe (future) president and CT reside in the same state. They do not, however, consist of a single person.
Comment by SURRENDERA MONKISTA!
Not too surprisingly, the “same state” is VIRGINia.
The rest of the information is correct. Neither of them is a “person.” Both are trolls.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:18 pmHow long they keep the data, what parameters they use to screen it or dispose of it, I can’t say. But the fact that they are recording ALL of our calls, to me is a no brainer.
They are doing it, and in time, I will be unfortunately proven right about this.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:18 pm“No more dim than RICE/PELOSI 2008!”
Rice is tremendously experienced, holds a PhD, and was National Security Advisor and Provost of Stanford. She would absolutely be the right candidate to occupy the oval office in 2009.
Hillary is a narcissist, feels entitled, and is nothing refreshing. The mantle of “first woman president” need not go wasted. Really, what’s so refreshing about Hillary, and what’s so hopeful about Barack?
God bless Condoleeza Rice and her service to our nation.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:20 pmO.T. But, This SHOULD be Interesting. T.P.?
WP: Bush appointee suppressed global health report
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/20016388/
July 29th, 2007 at 1:21 pm
That’s what I’m saying as well, Bart.
Comment by Zooey — July 29, 2007 @ 1:16 pm
So you see? Excellent. Now we just have to get everybody talking about it.
Everyone in the country needs to UNDERSTAND, that they are wiretapping the entire country.
Once people understand that, they’ll know why Robert Mueller threatened to resign over it, and why Bush CANNOT afford to let Gonzo be replaced.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:21 pmGod bless Condoleeza Rice and her service to our nation.
Comment by CT Scantonocity — July 29, 2007 @ 1:20 pm
May her blessings be so many, that she’s taken far away from us.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:24 pmEven an hour of this spying is too much — it’s been almost 6 years since 9/11….
Comment by Zooey — July 29, 2007 @ 1:16 pm
Absolutely. Imagine the millions of terrabytes of data stored in giant SANS networks at NSA and around the world, containing every phone call you or I ever made since 9-11 (actually Bush started the program, oddly enough, right BEFORE 9-11. Someday someone can explain that one to me).
Every silly phone call you ever made, stored somewhere, where the government can go back, and listen to.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:24 pmComment by gummitch — July 29, 2007 @ 1:18 pm
Virginia is the #1 state for business.
Probably live in a crappy, hopeless state.
Thank you for your “original” spoof. How did your 12th birthday party go? Get everything you wanted?
God bless the great state of Virginia.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:24 pmDo you suppose they use the information to measure the level of dissent so as to time and fashion Bush’s Executive Orders (made to manage the masses if they get too out of hand and further limit the rights of citizens)? They would certainly know how many beds to plan for in all those ’secret prisons’ being built around the country that will house all the ‘enemy combatants’ being built by Halliburton..
July 29th, 2007 at 1:25 pmand what’s so hopeful about Barack?
CT, he’s know as “Hussein Os/bama,” it is impolite to call him by his first name.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:26 pmOnce people understand that, they’ll know why Robert Mueller threatened to resign over it, and why Bush CANNOT afford to let Gonzo be replaced.
Comment by BARTLEBEE — July 29, 2007 @ 1:21 pm
Because Gonzo is the best lap dog ever, and someone with even an ounce more integrity might blow the top off this thing.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:27 pmGod bless the great state of Virginia
July 29th, 2007 at 1:28 pmTHE BEST STATE EVER, IN THE BEST COUNTRY EVER, EVER!!!
Every silly phone call you ever made, stored somewhere, where the government can go back, and listen to.
Comment by BARTLEBEE — July 29, 2007 @ 1:24 pm
I don’t talk much on the phone, but it would serve them right to have to listen to my sister yakking my ear off for hours at a time. Heh.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:30 pmVirginia is the #1 state for business.
Funny business.
Doesn’t Ollie Traitor North live there?
What a moral cesspool Virginia must be.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:33 pmComment by Zooey — July 29, 2007 @ 1:24 pm
You can rest assured, Zooey, since Condi has no plans to run in ‘08. While I respect her decision, I also feel it would be a loss for all of us, as we could use her uncommon experience and leadership ability to make the most critical decisions for our nation in the highest office of the land.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:33 pmBARTLEBEE, Prof.Marcus, WaltTheMan,
that’s why I sometimes wonder if my husband will even be allowed to enter the US when on a business trip. Really, each time he has a trip to your country scheduled I am apprehensive, whether he will call from some airport, furious that I have jeopardized his job and got him grounded in Chicago, or wherever, because of my stupid commenting here and elsewhere.
And I do not think I’m paranoid.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:33 pm“… as we could use her uncommon experience and leadership ability to make the most critical decisions for our nation in the highest office of the land.”
Yeah, she’s led us right into a geo-political ditch.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:35 pmBecause Gonzo is the best lap dog ever, and someone with even an ounce more integrity might blow the top off this thing.
Comment by Zooey — July 29, 2007 @ 1:27 pm
Thats right. Bush knows that any AG that congress would approve, would immediately blow the lid off the program, and uncover the crimes of Bush and his pet frog, Gonzales.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:35 pmYou can rest assured, Zooey, since Condi has no plans to run in ‘08. While I respect her decision, I also feel it would be a loss for all of us, as we could use her uncommon experience and leadership ability to make the most critical decisions for our nation in the highest office of the land.
Comment by CT Scantonocity — July 29, 2007 @ 1:33 pm
Ferragamo or Jimmy Choo…..
Decisions, decisions…
July 29th, 2007 at 1:36 pmYou can rest assured, Zooey, since Condi has no plans to run in ‘08. While I respect her decision, I also feel it would be a loss for all of us, as we could use her uncommon experience and leadership ability to make the most critical decisions for our nation in the highest office of the land.
Comment by CT Scantonocity
You’re just giving too much credit to the game of golf, CT. It’s just not that important.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:37 pmwell if you got nothing to hide why the executive privilege that circular reasoning from the wiretapping program comes back to bite scrub in the rear.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:38 pmAnd I do not think I’m paranoid.
Comment by doro — July 29, 2007 @ 1:33 pm
Paranoid or not, just remember, that just because you’re paranoid, doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:38 pmCT, he’s know as “Hussein Os/bama,†it is impolite to call him by his first name.
Comment by Mr. President — July 29, 2007 @ 1:26
Mr. President, my apologies. Indeed, he is Barack Hussein Obama (abbrev. Ob/sama).
I shouldn’t have insulted Mr. Osama’s favorite candidate.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:38 pm“I shouldn’t have insulted Mr. Osama’s favorite candidate.”
Comment by CT Scantonocity
My money’s on McCain.
But what do I know?
July 29th, 2007 at 1:41 pmBecause Gonzo is the best lap dog ever, and someone with even an ounce more integrity might blow the top off this thing.
Comment by Zooey — July 29, 2007 @ 1:27 pm
Hey Zooey, even Ashcroft didn’t comply, not even when drugged. It must be real bad.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:42 pmComment by barfly — July 29, 2007 @ 1:33 pm
Virginia is the #1 place to own a business.
Reasonable energy costs below the national average? Yes. Fair taxes? Yes. Fair regulations? Certainly.
That’s only one reason why Virginia is a great state.
Your state can STICK IT.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:42 pmData Mining does not occur real time. It occurs with “warehoused†data, which is data thats already been stored.
Comment by BARTLEBEE — July 29, 2007 @ 1:16 pm
They cannot keep all data and analyze it after – there would not be enough time to do the task. The culling has to done up front. Bucket brigade delay lines which preserve several minutes of conversation can be obtained at a cost of pennies per circuit. In addition, audio communications via sattilite are divided into packets and several thousand tete a tetes are carried on a single channel. What we have here is a prepackaged communications stream already in digital packets.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:43 pmThink about it. The trolls are desperately trying to change the topic to a discussion of states, which is not even part of this thread. Why? Well other than the usual reasons, they know I am right and they want to conceal the terrible truth. The terrible truth that Bush ordered the wiretapping of every American household in the US.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:46 pmParanoid or not, just remember, that just because you’re paranoid, doesn’t mean they’re not out to get you.
Comment by BARTLEBEE — July 29, 2007 @ 1:38 pm
I’m not saying a single word here, that I’m not prepared to say right into anybody’s face.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:46 pmI shouldn’t have insulted Mr. Osama’s favorite candidate.
Comment by CT Scantonocity — July 29, 2007 @ 1:38 pm
Mr Osama’s favorite candidate has occupied the white House for 6 years. congratulations for falling to your knees and surrendering to the Bin Laden family, righties.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:47 pmVirginia is a polluted, racist backwater, making it a great place to start a business if you hate Americans.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:49 pmFerragamo or Jimmy Choo…..
Decisions, decisions…
Comment by Zooey — July 29, 2007 @ 1:36 pm
—————–
Call up Screeeeecher Nancy Pelosi!
She knows all hot trends, especially those of Damascus!!!
July 29th, 2007 at 1:50 pmVirginia is a polluted, racist backwater, making it a great place to start a business if you hate Americans.
Comment by ronjazz — July 29, 2007 @ 1:49 pm
July 29th, 2007 at 1:51 pm————–
You sir, have never been to VA.
They cannot keep all data and analyze it after – there would not be enough time to do the task. The culling has to done up front.
Comment by WaltTheMan — July 29, 2007 @ 1:43 pm
Walt buddy, I just have to disagree. I know something about this technology, and I can tell you that its just the opposite.
They could never analyze every word as it passes through the phone banks. But offloading the calls once they’re digitized, is EASY.
Its a simple matter of using a technology in digital switching called “Port Mirroring”, or as Cisco calls it, SPANNING.
It requires NO human interaction once its set up. The switches simply hand off a mirror image of the data passing through them, to a storage area network, probably worm drives or some other optical storage medium.
The data would be automatically archived by timestamp and compressed, for later retrival if they need it.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:51 pmComment by ronjazz — July 29, 2007 @ 1:49 pm
Virginia was the first state to apologize for slavery, was it not?
Please don’t push stereotypes.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:51 pmTo be taken seriously by a righty never happens.
God help the backwards, piss-poor state of Virginia.
Comment by CT Scantonocity — July 29, 2007 @ 1:46 pm
fixed.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:52 pmI’m not saying a single word here, that I’m not prepared to say right into anybody’s face.
Comment by doro — July 29, 2007 @ 1:46 pm
My policy as well, doro.
BTW, I’ll get a response to your message out today!
July 29th, 2007 at 1:52 pmComment by Mr. President — July 29, 2007 @ 1:50 pm
From the kitchen to the congress.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:52 pmComment by CT Scantonocity — July 29, 2007 @ 1:38 pm
That’s quite alright, CT.
Actually, he thinks that “Barack” sounds kind of funny, and I can’t say that I disagree. So usually the first name is dropped and he is referred to as “Hussein Os/bama.”
That way everyone knows who you are talking about.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:53 pmVirginia is for smokers.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:53 pmIn addition, audio communications via sattilite are divided into packets and several thousand tete a tetes are carried on a single channel. What we have here is a prepackaged communications stream already in digital packets.
Comment by WaltTheMan — July 29, 2007 @ 1:43 pm
Practically all telephone communications in the US are digitized once they pass through digitial switches. This used to happen on the long haul, at NAP points (Network Access Points), but now happens at the local CO in most cities. This means all data communications are stored in digitial form.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:54 pmComment by ronjazz — July 29, 2007 @ 1:54 pm
ok.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:56 pmThey were so happy to get the hell out of there, and now live in Idaho and Texas. Now that’s really saying something….
Comment by Zooey — July 29, 2007 @ 1:54 pm
July 29th, 2007 at 1:56 pm————————————————-
Virginia is not for the weak.
Virginia is not for the weak.
Comment by Mr. President — July 29, 2007 @ 1:56 pm
No, just the weak-minded.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:57 pmVirginia is for smokers.
Comment by wake-n-bake — July 29, 2007 @ 1:53 pm
July 29th, 2007 at 1:58 pm——————-
We enjoy some fine tobacco every now and then, true.
No, just the weak-minded.
Comment by ronjazz — July 29, 2007 @ 1:57 pm
July 29th, 2007 at 1:58 pm——————-
You sir, have never been to Virginia.
“Anyone who thinks that George Bush is not spying on Americans has a few screws loose.
Comment by bilbobaggins — July 29, 2007″
Worried about some phone calls you’ve made lately?
July 29th, 2007 at 1:59 pmMy parents and sisters used to live in Virginia. I remember the stories…
They were so happy to get the hell out of there, and now live in Idaho and Texas. Now that’s really saying something….
Comment by Zooey
Come to think of it, a friend of mine who works for NASA lived in Virginia for a few years. He and his wife couldn’t wait to get out and get back to Houston.
Houston!
I’ve only been in the area around DC and, well, it’s a sh!thole. Terrible climate, appalling traffic and an utter lack of character.
There are probably some nicer parts of the state, but I suspect the chamber of commerce would be creeped out to know they were being touted by the likes of our two trolls.
July 29th, 2007 at 1:59 pmComment by Zooey — July 29, 2007 @ 1:54 pm
Were the taxes not high enough for em’?
Was the housing too plentiful for their needs?
I’ll pray for your family and their faulty decision…
July 29th, 2007 at 1:59 pmVirginia is for hustlers!
July 29th, 2007 at 2:00 pmVirginia is for hustlers!
Comment by Mr. President
I suppose this would explain why they don’t let you out of the basement.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:01 pmOK, TP censored my comment on pelosi and her table issues?
You guys let the trolls run amock and yet you censor your regular posters?
looks like it is time to give you the finger and leave again.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:01 pm“They’ve been listening for a long time….
Comment by Zooey — July 29, 2007″
I don’t know why they have to listen in on calls when all they have to do is follow this blog and they can find all the traitors they’re looking for, like you zooey!
July 29th, 2007 at 2:02 pmGeorge Washington… native Virginian.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:02 pmComment by wake-n-bake — July 29, 2007 @ 1:53 pm
Crops have to sprout somewhere.
You’re just all worked up because of the low-tax thingie.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:03 pm“looks like it is time to give you the finger and leave again.
Comment by Wayne — July 29, 2007″
awwww, Wayne! Are you taking your toys with you? AGAIN?
July 29th, 2007 at 2:03 pmIt’s [Virginia's] a beautiful state
You’re cot damn right about that!
July 29th, 2007 at 2:03 pmI’ll pray for your family and their faulty decision…
Comment by CT Scantonocity — July 29, 2007 @ 1:59 pm
More useless blather. No wonder civilized, cultured people avoid a place populated by baboons with licences to drive. Not content with ruining Virginia, now you’re trying to destroy the whole country. Lucky for us you’re all so clueless.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:03 pmLet’s see, we’ve fired most of our Arabic speaking translators, so I’m guessing that they doen’t have enough to do – not enough action.
So, I’m guessing that by data mining the life activities of ordinary Americans that they have plenty of to do.
Of course they’re spying on Americans, why would anyone think differently? Conservatives can’t resist the demands of the Big Government National Security Establishment.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:04 pmGeorge Washington, dead.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:05 pmThomas Jefferson… native Virginian.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:05 pmJames “The Father of the Constitution” Madison… native Virginian.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:06 pmThere are probably some nicer parts of the state, but I suspect the chamber of commerce would be creeped out to know they were being touted by the likes of our two trolls.
Comment by gummitch — July 29, 2007 @ 1:59 pm
I visited VA once, when one of my sisters got married. I couldn’t wait to get out and back to California. It seemed like none of them could articulate a thought, and they all had at least one lazy eye.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:06 pmSo at one time, Virginia was a home for intellectual liberals. and you wonder why people leave in droves now.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:06 pmPatrick “Give me Liberty or Give me Death” Henry… native Virginian.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:08 pmComment by ronjazz — July 29, 2007 @ 2:03 pm
Virginia has an excellent economy for a place populated with rednecks. Perhaps your state could learn from us.
The surge of illegal immigrants in my area living 20 per-house and parking their cars on the front lawn is what’s a real screw-up, however.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:09 pmPatrick “Give me Liberty or Give me Death†Henry… native Virginian.
Comment by Mr. President — July 29, 2007 @ 2:08 pm
Why did you redneck morons drove all the liberal patriots out?
July 29th, 2007 at 2:09 pmWere the taxes not high enough for em’?
Idaho enjoys very low property and income taxes.
Was the housing too plentiful for their needs?
We have houses too! Way bigger and less expensive than VA.
I’ll pray for your family and their faulty decision…
Comment by CT Scantonocity — July 29, 2007 @ 1:59 pm
They’ll pray for themselves, thanks. Whenever they speak of VA, it’s with relief that they are away from that damp rotting hellhole.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:10 pmGeorge “The Father of the Bill of Rights” Mason… native Virginian.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:10 pm…wonder why people leave in droves now.
Comment by ronjazz — July 29, 2007 @ 2:06 pm
Projection.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:10 pmThe surge of illegal immigrants in my area living 20 per-house and parking their cars on the front lawn is what’s a real screw-up, however.
Comment by CT Scantonocity — July 29, 2007 @ 2:09 pm
don’t kid yurself. they’re from West Virginia, which was too liberal for them.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:10 pmGeorge “The Father of the Bill of Rights†Mason… native Virginian.
Comment by Mr. President — July 29, 2007 @ 2:10 pm
Excellent recommendations, liberals that have been dead for 200 years. I’ll move right down. And I do mean down.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:11 pmYou guys let the trolls run amock and yet you censor your regular posters?
looks like it is time to give you the finger and leave again.
Comment by Wayne — July 29, 2007 @ 2:01 pm
Sorry, Wayne. No of this makes any sense. Keep checking back now and then, ok?
July 29th, 2007 at 2:12 pmComment by Zooey — July 29, 2007 @ 2:10 pm
Virginia is the state for the strong-minded. Therefore, I will never leave.
Virginia, #1 state for business.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:13 pmCT, meet the great state of Texas, where we have NO state income tax.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:13 pmCheck out the climate for business in VA:
July 29th, 2007 at 2:15 pmhttp://www.forbes.com/business/2006/08/15/virginia-business-climate_cz_kb_0815virginia.html
Comment by ronjazz — July 29, 2007 @ 2:10 pm
My county (and others) is at work right now attempting to clean up their mess.
Virginia is at the cornerstone of American politics. You don’t know Virginia, unfortunately.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:15 pmSo at one time, Virginia was a home for intellectual liberals. and you wonder why people leave in droves now.
Comment by ronjazz — July 29, 2007 @ 2:06 pm
Everyone I’ve ever known who lived in Virginia moved out — I come from a military family, and that’s a lot of moving away…
July 29th, 2007 at 2:15 pmVirginia is the state for the strong-smelling. Therefore, I will never leave.
Virginia, #1 state for business.
Comment by CT Scantonocity — July 29, 2007 @ 2:13 pm
fixed
July 29th, 2007 at 2:16 pmAre you a hustler, who wants to get rich? Move to VA:
July 29th, 2007 at 2:18 pmhttp://www.cnbc.com/id/19744219/site/14081545/
Virginia is the state for the strong-minded. Therefore, I will never leave.
Virginia, #1 state for business.
Comment by CT Scantonocity — July 29, 2007 @ 2:13 pm
I noticed that about you people in the south. Ya just stay where you are your entire life, near mama and daddy, and never experience the world.
That’s why y’all are so fearful of the unknown — there’s so much that is unknown to you.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:18 pmComment by wake-n-bake — July 29, 2007 @ 2:13 pm
I haven’t insulted the state of our great president.
He’s the only reason why you have no state income tax. Appreciate his candor and generocity.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:18 pmMy country and others are hard at work trying to clean up your mess, CT. Virginia is the toilet bowl of American politics in this century. All the good folk are long dead. when VA went from liberal to ignorant rightwingnut, it ceased to be of any use to the USA.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:20 pmWhat’s the minimum wage there?
July 29th, 2007 at 2:20 pmhttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/07/AR2006020701703.html
“Of course they’re spying on Americans
Comment by Arroyo — July 29, 2007″
And you can prove that?
July 29th, 2007 at 2:21 pm3148, 5 lies in two sentences. may be a new record in wingnut ignorance.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:21 pmAnd you can prove that?
Comment by michael — July 29, 2007 @ 2:21 pm
Oh, absolutely. Watch this space.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:22 pmIf Virginia must be the topic, so…
I’ve been there once on vacation. Actually we were in North Carolina and our friends treated us to a trip to Colonial Williamsburg. We went there, were ripped off in a restaurant, that has been mentioned in one of Patricia Cornwell’s books. I had a punctured tire and we were to Bush Gardens, where I’ve seen the most hilarious copy of the Munich Hofbräuhaus, got some food there, was sick and fled to the Outer Banks. I was in Virginia again two years later, when North Carolina was flooded after Floyd had hit and we had to get up to Virginia to make it to the Outer Banks.
I guess that wonderful mountain scenery of the Blue Ridge Parkway is West Virgina – right? Well, it doesn’t matter anyway, because most of the drive we had dense fog and it only cleared up after we were back in North Carolina.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:24 pm“there’s so much that is unknown to you.
Comment by Zooey — July 29, 2007″
Coming from the biggest “black hole” on this blog!
July 29th, 2007 at 2:25 pmComment by doro — July 29, 2007 @ 2:24 pm
Thanks for visiting, come back any time you have the cash!
July 29th, 2007 at 2:26 pm# 156 Mr.P.
Well, we have Swiss Francs and Euros, the rate we get your dollar now, it’ll be a bargain. However, I don’t like to be ripped off even if I have the money.
Can you afford the ruinous ways of your President?
July 29th, 2007 at 2:30 pmCan you afford the ruinous ways of your President?
Comment by doro — July 29, 2007 @ 2:30 pm
——————-
Please, I’m not going to answer a question phrased like that.
I do not concede that President Bush’s ways are “ruinous,” maybe not perfect at times, but ruinous… please.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:32 pmNot everyone in Virginia is a redneck. The Blue Ridge Parkway is in Virginia, not W. Virginia. You show your ignorance stooping to the level of these two trolls.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:33 pmI do not concede that President Bush’s ways are “ruinous,†maybe not perfect at times, but ruinous… please.
Of course they are ruinous. That is probably a generous comment actually. He has a credit card mentality even worse than my children. He is bleeding dry the treasury and running up our debt to a point that before much longer this economy will implode. It is irresponsibility on a scale I have never seen… Though, it is not a surprise. Bush has run every company he has ever worked for into the ground. Why should this country be any different.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:38 pmBlue Virginia, I apologize. I really didn’t know, should have googled it.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:38 pmNot everyone in Virginia is a redneck. The Blue Ridge Parkway is in Virginia, not W. Virginia. You show your ignorance stooping to the level of these two trolls.
Comment by Blue Virginia — July 29, 2007 @ 2:33 pm
Sorry BV, we’re just baiting those two idiots. Nowhere is all bad. I live in a tiny “blue island” in Idaho, so I understand what you’re saying. Sorry for any hurt feelings.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:39 pmDoro, which country do you reside (if that is ok to ask)?
July 29th, 2007 at 2:39 pmIt’s ok to ask. Switzerland
July 29th, 2007 at 2:40 pmI have one brother-inlaw in Munich and another in Amsterdam (works for the Hague).
July 29th, 2007 at 2:41 pmHey JG, I used to live in Munich for 18 years, worked there for the finest company there ever was (DEC). We moved to Switzerland roughly 9 years ago.
Say hi to your brothers in law. May the beer never get warm!
July 29th, 2007 at 2:47 pmOh and… maybe your other brother in law will meet your president eventually;-))
July 29th, 2007 at 2:48 pmYou libs didn’t hurt anyone’s feelings…
WE’RE VIRGINIANS!!!!!!!
you know…
THE MASTER-RACE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
July 29th, 2007 at 2:49 pmComment by Zooey — July 29, 2007 @ 2:18 pm
I prefer “mid-atlantic” over “the south.” Virginia is not a kranky hillbilly state. It’s always been one with a fair and decent reputation, along with strong contributions to our national political scence.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:50 pmDo you like it there? My husband has talked about doing a sabatical there for a couple of years and working on a master’s in Public Health. He would be closer to his brothers then as well. I don’t know much about it.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:50 pmThat is what the one brother does – investigating and hunting down war criminals. Dangerous job..
July 29th, 2007 at 2:52 pmYea, yea, Seig Heil to you too, but hey, explain this Mr Fuhrer.
If Virginny is so right wing radical, then why did they elect Jim Webb, a man who is strongly opposed to the war in Iraq, and who hates George W Bush?
:|
Are you admitting even your own people are leaving you in droves, or that Virginny is not as red as you claim?
July 29th, 2007 at 2:52 pmErr: political scene.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:53 pmJG, I like it here a lot. Do you happen to be on facebook? I could tell you more there without absolutely slamming this thread. If not let me know and I post a longer comment.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:55 pmI’m on Facebook.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:57 pmComment by BARTLEBEE — July 29, 2007 @ 2:52 pm
Jim Webb is not your daddy’s democrat. His stance on illegal immigration, for example, is probably tougher than most Senate Republicans. And keep in mind, while he was a former full-fledged Republican, he still retains a great deal of his Republican ideology. He’s just low-key with it. His discontent for the war is what puts the “D” next to his name for the time being.
July 29th, 2007 at 2:58 pmHe’s just low-key with it. His discontent for the war is what puts the “D†next to his name for the time being.
Maybe its because he’s seen the light..
July 29th, 2007 at 3:00 pmA, my daddy is a republican.
B, your tap dance doesn’t address either of my questions, or facts.
Jim Webb hates Bush, and he is a bitter opponent to the Iraq war.
And Virginians elected him.
Which indicates Virginians hate George W Bush, and are bitterly opposed to the Iraq war.
July 29th, 2007 at 3:00 pmMy father and my sisters are also Republicans. I come from a very long line of Republicans. I can’t imagine EVER BEING a Republican..
July 29th, 2007 at 3:01 pmAnd by the way little Heinrich, the only party I’ve ever was a member of, was the republican party
July 29th, 2007 at 3:02 pmBut I’ll be damned if I’ll support the likes of you.
Being strong means being right.
Being strong means being good.
And being good means DOING good.
Not doing evil, and calling it good.
July 29th, 2007 at 3:04 pmMy father and my sisters are also Republicans. I come from a very long line of Republicans. I can’t imagine EVER BEING a Republican..
Comment by JG — July 29, 2007 @ 3:01 pm
My sons and I are the family liberals. I can’t even make myself think the way they do. They are not bad people, but sometimes they say things that just blow my mind — about gay issues, or their ideas of what liberals are about. Wow.
July 29th, 2007 at 3:07 pmI prefer “mid-atlantic†over “the south.†Virginia is not a kranky hillbilly state. It’s always been one with a fair and decent reputation, along with strong contributions to our national political scence.
Comment by CT Scantonocity — July 29, 2007 @ 2:50 pm
That’s nice.
Virginia is in the south. Period.
Where else have you traveled in this country, if not the world?
July 29th, 2007 at 3:08 pmComment by BARTLEBEE — July 29, 2007 @ 3:00 pm
Keep in mind that Webb narrowly defeated George Allen because of Allen’s gaffe. Prior to that, a second term for George Allen was assured. Had the media not stuffed Allen’s gaffe in everyone’s face (even after Allen apologized), Allen would still be Senator. Really, I feel that the coverage was excessive.
And I don’t need to know that your daddy is a Republican. The “daddy’s democrat” line is from Larry Sabato, the most quoted professor in the land, also in the great state of Virginia.
Let me assert, though, that I still have a lot of respect for Webb, and I don’t mind him as my Senator.
I think that goes beyond answering your questions. I live in Virginia and understand its politics. You don’t.
July 29th, 2007 at 3:09 pmTrue Zooey. My kids are more liberal about a lot of things. I try to figure out how I feel about things and then figure out where I fit into the sceme of things. I have trouble putting me into a box. I hate labels. I am more into fair and not fair, right and wrong.
July 29th, 2007 at 3:09 pmBartlebee, Va is a complex state, just look at the acceents and you can follow the politics. Na Va, little to none, Tidewater, probably my favorite nation wide other than someone from Hamden in Baltimore, Southern Va/NC, and Western Va, more Tenn/ ByGod West Virginia. And of course there’s Richmond with it’s fog horn legghorn, “I say boy” kinda thang. Less accent more Democrat.
July 29th, 2007 at 3:10 pmComment by Zooey — July 29, 2007 @ 3:08 pm
Why do you enjoy pushing stereotypes on my state of residence?
July 29th, 2007 at 3:10 pmI think that goes beyond answering your questions. I live in Virginia and understand its politics. You don’t.
Comment by CT Scantonocity — July 29, 2007 @ 3:09 pm
A. You don’t know where I live, or have lived clyde.
B. You’re evil. You don’t know you’re evil because you are evil, and your bloodlust has clouded your judgement. Look inside, and you’ll see that hatred, spite and fear are all that motivate your feet to move, each and every day.
July 29th, 2007 at 3:13 pmLooks like CT is trotting out bullshit again.
You think the coverage of Allen was excessive because he has an R after his name, not for any concern over privacy. You being one of the guys who wants to hound Clinton’s heels like those little annoying yapdogs over a blowjob. -R? Free to say or do anything he or she wishes. -D? First misstep, stuck to like fly to flypaper.
July 29th, 2007 at 3:13 pmgood job, zooey!
July 29th, 2007 at 3:14 pmthe results should be hilarious!
keep it up…
I meant ’scheme’. Also, I care about responsible versus irresponsible and what’s good for the majority, not the good of a few or one segment of society. I can’t support liars or hypocrites. I care very much about social justice.
I just can’t just say “I am a *****” and then whatever that party does, regardles of right or wrong, I support them no matter what and follow blindly. That is just flat wrong.
July 29th, 2007 at 3:16 pmCommon sense has to come into play and people need to think for themselves. Whatever party or box they fit into. That is what is confusing me about what is happening right now. Where is the common sense in this country that sees what is happening and isn’t screaming out in outrage!
July 29th, 2007 at 3:19 pmThe point here of course is Virginia has nothing to do with this thread. I was speaking earlier about what this thread is about, and the trolls want to turn the thread into a discussion of the state of Virginia. Why Virginia, who knows? But the fact is they don’t want to have people think about WHY Rober Mueller threatened to resign over the spying scandal, or WHAT DATA MINING, really is, and implies.
They don’t want anyone talking about this one, because the truth is just too overwhelming.
July 29th, 2007 at 3:19 pmNo one is articulating this. No one is addressing it. Its like the elephant in the room, that no one wants to admit they see, because its too preposterous, too overwhelming.
When the press people “get it”, and start vocalizing this information, then maybe we can ask your question (although I think the answer to your question is obvious, for ultimate control in the hands of the executive, of course), but in the meantime, we need to get people talking about it.
Until someone actually says on the news that we are all being spied on, then the other question will simply fall on death ears.
July 29th, 2007 at 3:20 pmbut you see, jg, one can STILL be “a *****â€
and disagree with, even point out and work to rectify
any problems in one’s “party”…
myself, i’m a very proud progressive, liberal
member of the DEMOCRATIC party…
can’t imagine anything but…
July 29th, 2007 at 3:21 pm…
I totally agree katy.
July 29th, 2007 at 3:23 pmAnd Bartlebee, I know exactly what you are saying. I know what is happening, but other than all the phone calls and letters to Congress, what the heck can we do about it??
Walt.
Read the quote from the the top of this thread.
A 2004 dispute over the National Security Agency’s secret surveillance program that led top Justice Department officials to threaten resignation involved computer searches through massive electronic databases.
MASSIVE ELECTRONIC DATABASES.
See, what you’re referring to, real time electronic eavesdropping of all calls is not what they’re doing. Its STORING the calls, in MASSIVE ELECTRONIC DATABASES which is the real story here.
They are recording ALL calls, for later DATA MINING.
You can’t MINE data if you don’t have a DATABASE to mine it from.
July 29th, 2007 at 3:24 pmI guess what I was trying to say (and not very well), what I think has me fitting into the more liberal and Progressive category. I have only ever voted as a Democrat and proud of it. But, if I ever saw a problem with something the Dems were doing or corruption with a Dem leader, I would have no problem with trying to correct it.
July 29th, 2007 at 3:28 pmThe Republicans (at least the ones in Washington) tend more towards authoritarian personalities and following with blind loyalty (no matter what) without question. I can’t understand that.
None of the founding fathers were from my state.
*tear*
July 29th, 2007 at 3:29 pmbut other than all the phone calls and letters to Congress, what the heck can we do about it??
Comment by JG — July 29, 2007 @ 3:23 pm
You’re a wise man JG.
As for what we need to do, we need to get people simply talking about it.
See, no one really gets it. Its the elephant in the room, thats too overwhelming, too preposterous for anyone to get their heads around.
Imagine, recording the conversations of practically every American in the country. Its crazy! Ludicrous even. People don’t want to admit it to themselves, because the idea is so shocking. Imagine, every call you make being recorded. So, no one talks about it. The media has only alluded to it. Subtle hints. Stories like the CNN NSA coverage in 2003.
But if people will talk about it, the public outcry, on both sides of the isle, will be overwhelming. Someone on the news just needs to come out articulate it. Ask the question. “IF they can start recording, WHEN we say certain keywords, then HOW did they KNOW we said those words, in the first place?”
July 29th, 2007 at 3:30 pmThanks Bartlebee, and it’s ‘woman’..
July 29th, 2007 at 3:33 pmPardon me mam..
July 29th, 2007 at 3:34 pmNo problem :-)
July 29th, 2007 at 3:35 pmNow I REALLY have to go act like a parent..
jg – what bartlebee says…
and don’t give up…
keep up with the letters and calls…
don’t ever give up…
July 29th, 2007 at 3:37 pmGremlin = liberals who post at Thinkprogress
July 29th, 2007 at 3:44 pmGremlin = liberals who post at Thinkprogress
Comment by Brassmask from 3DHS — July 29, 2007 @ 3:44 pm
Oh great. Someone claiming to be from the Dept of Homeland Security is now weighing in.
Ok Maxwell Smart. We’re gremlins. Just remember, whatever you do, don’t ever get us wet, and don’t ever, ever feed us after midnight.
July 29th, 2007 at 3:46 pmSooner or later, someone like Chris Matthews or Tim Russerts, going to ask a guest the golden question. IF NSA can “START†recording whenever certain keywords are spoken, then HOW did they KNOW, that you said those words in the first place?”
When they ask that question, then the truth will come out.
July 29th, 2007 at 4:11 pmduh.
Secret Data Mining is the tool of a dictator.
July 29th, 2007 at 4:31 pmComment by Jeremy — July 29, 2007 @ 3:13 pm
It was excessive because it was excessive, period. Any way you put it, and by any standard, it was excessive. As a loony lefty, of course you wouldn’t feel that way. Nothing new there, moving along…
Really, look who’s talking.
July 29th, 2007 at 4:45 pmComment by BARTLEBEE — July 29, 2007 @ 3:13 pm
Yours wasn’t a response, just projection.
And you’re worried about me staying on-topic?
I understand Virginia. You don’t.
July 29th, 2007 at 4:47 pmReally, look who’s talking.
Comment by CT Scantonocity
Is this an example of wingnut humor? No wonder the 1/2 hour comedy hour sucks so bad…
July 29th, 2007 at 4:48 pm“I understand Virginia. You don’t.”
Comment by CT Scantonocity —
I understand Virginia had the choice to ban slavery, and they, like the other traitorous rebel states, used biblical authority to support their views on slavery.
July 29th, 2007 at 4:51 pm{[[Comment by Osama Bin Laden—July 29, 2007]]}
Gotcha! …… heh, heh…….
July 29th, 2007 at 4:51 pmGotcha! …… heh, heh…….
Comment by Mr. President
Really? Where am I?
July 29th, 2007 at 4:52 pmReally? Where am I?
Comment by Osama Bin Laden — July 29, 2007 @ 4:52 pm
—————-
Who? You?
You’re the fake “fat” bin Laden that ace keeps yappin’ ’bout.
heh heh heh…….
July 29th, 2007 at 4:54 pmheh heh heh…….
Comment by Mr. President
Do you even have the positive location for your ass?
I didn’t think so.
July 29th, 2007 at 4:57 pmI’ve never been to Virginia.
I would like to visit there someday.
There are idiots and jerks in every state, perhaps some more than others. But I’m sure there are also good people wherever you go.
Virginia has played an important role in American history, both good and bad. So has every other state (except Nebraska).
July 29th, 2007 at 4:58 pmThe trolls want to talk about Virginny, or any state other than the topic of the thread. But the fact is Data Mining is the key to the whole ballgame.
When it comes out, and it will, that it wasn’t millions of Americans, it was practically all of us, everyones calls who they were able to record digitally or capture through central switching points, and emails, are stored on MASSIVE DATABASES for later date mining (or “dater minen” as Bush calls it) and retrieval, then the damns going to burst. It was illegal. It was constitutionally criminal, and it was an assault on America from within.
July 29th, 2007 at 4:59 pmFirst it was “a handful of Americans”.
Then it was “thousands of Americans”.
Now its “Millions of Americans”.
Mark my words, soon, you’ll all be reading about how it was ALL Americans.
ALL.
July 29th, 2007 at 5:02 pmWhy do you enjoy pushing stereotypes on my state of residence?
Comment by CT Scantonocity — July 29, 2007 @ 3:10 pm
Um, let’s see……oh yeah, because it’s so damn fun, and you make it so easy.
You didn’t answer my question, CT. Does it make you uncomfortable to never have traveled around this country and met people different from yourself? Or outside of this country?
July 29th, 2007 at 5:03 pm“It was illegal. It was constitutionally criminal, and it was an assault on America from within.”
Comment by BARTLEBEE
I also wonder how this information will be used. The administration has shown a lack of good faith on a range of issues, and it wouldn’t be too much a stretch to envision partisan political uses for this data.
July 29th, 2007 at 5:06 pmI also wonder how this information will be used. The administration has shown a lack of good faith on a range of issues, and it wouldn’t be too much a stretch to envision partisan political uses for this data.
Comment by barfly — July 29, 2007 @ 5:06 pm
How it will be used?
It shouldn’t even EXIST!!!
Its against the very foundations of our constitution, and constitutes the most illegal of searches possible.
How it can be used is an endless question. It can be used however they want, since no one is overseeing the operation.
The real question, is how could it ever happen, and how can it be stopped, with those responsible being brought to justice?
July 29th, 2007 at 5:11 pmHey, I think I finally had a post deleted.
Don’t worry though. As usual, it wasn’t important or particularly relevant.
July 29th, 2007 at 5:11 pmIt IS kind of strange to have a post deleted on this particular thread though.
July 29th, 2007 at 5:12 pmHey, I think I finally had a post deleted.
Don’t worry though. As usual, it wasn’t important or particularly relevant.
Comment by Egreggious — July 29, 2007 @ 5:11 pm
Hi Egg,
I think the weekend TP intern just cranks up the f*ck filter to 11, and takes off.
July 29th, 2007 at 5:13 pmI’ve never been to Virginia.
I would like to visit there someday.
“Virginia is for lovers”
July 29th, 2007 at 5:14 pmWhy don’t we have cool state mottos anymore?
I’ve enjoyed all my experiences in VA although most have been limited to the eastern portion. I think you will find it lovely country and nice people
People really want to turn this thread into a discussion on the state of Virginia for some reason.
But the truth remains. it wasn’t millions of Americans, it was practically all of us, everyones calls who they were able to record digitally or capture through central switching points, and emails, are stored on MASSIVE DATABASES for later date mining (or “dater minen†as Bush calls it) and retrieval, then the damns going to burst. It was illegal. It was constitutionally criminal, and it was an assault on America from within.
And this one thing, if it does come out before Bush is out of office, will ensure his impeachment. Even the republicans can’t sign on publically to that. Its against the very foundations of the US Constitution.
July 29th, 2007 at 5:19 pmBartles,
You’d have to come to beautiful Virginia to understand…
I feel bad for you.
July 29th, 2007 at 5:24 pmWhich is why I think Congress is committed to humilating Gonzales. Because Diane Feinstein and other like her who are on the intelligence community, and KNOW its what they’re doing.
They can’t publically speak about it because the President has classified it, so instead they put Gonzales and others under oath so they can paint the picture themselves.
Which is what they’re doing.
Its clear that it was all of us, and soon it will come out.
July 29th, 2007 at 5:26 pmImagine. Recording the phone calls of every American in the country, just because a relatively small number of us got killed by terrorists.
A President swears to upholding the constitution, and by spying on all Americans in the US, Bush has wiped his ass with it.
July 29th, 2007 at 5:31 pmI think the weekend TP intern just cranks up the f*ck filter to 11, and takes off.
Comment by Zooey — July 29, 2007 @ 5:13 pm
Hello, sunshine!
I wrote “d r u g d e a l s”. I think that’s what did it.
July 29th, 2007 at 5:32 pmComment by BARTLEBEE — July 29, 2007 @ 5:19 pm
I do not disagree with you! However Va remains a very charming place, especially the tidewaters. My crabcake will still smoke any crabcake claim by anyone who hasn’t lived in the Chesapeake.
If you play this backward you’ll know what I mean….
Domestic spying is both immoral and unjust
July 29th, 2007 at 5:35 pmOff topic here, but…The think progress site could be one of the best progressive websites on the internet but too many people let the trolls dominate the discussion. Who gives a shit what Mr. Pee thinks about his state of residence. The trolls want to disrupt the site and people just let them by sparring with them.
DON’T FEED THE TROLLS…YOU WON’T CONVINCE THEM OF ANYTHING. ALL THEY DO IS DISRUPT THE ADULT CONVERSATION.
July 29th, 2007 at 5:38 pmThe trolls want to talk about Virginny, or any state other than the topic of the thread. But the fact is Data Mining is the key to the whole ballgame.
When it comes out, and it will, that it wasn’t millions of Americans, it was practically all of us, everyones calls who they were able to record digitally or capture through central switching points, and emails, are stored on MASSIVE DATABASES for later date mining (or “dater minen†as Bush calls it) and retrieval, then the damns going to burst. It was illegal. It was constitutionally criminal, and it was an assault on America from within.
Comment by BARTLEBEE — July 29, 2007 @ 4:59 pm
You have changed your tune a bit since I introduced the concept of Information Packets, but the underlaying truth remains – Storing the information and then retreiving it for analysis involves four steps. Analyzing it on the fly involves but two. In addition, storing 100% of the information to extract 2 or 3% would swamp the entire memory capacity of NSA. You have to realize that the information stream is not only English, there are about 120 active language streams today. The 380 idle ones go into full record mode. American Indian languages fall into that group.
July 29th, 2007 at 6:14 pmRegarding the early comments on data mining and “how were they able to start recording if they weren’t already listening….”
Wouldn’t this feed into arguments made about not having time to go to the FISA ?
July 29th, 2007 at 9:33 pmHow it will be used?
It shouldn’t even EXIST!!!
Its against the very foundations of our constitution, and constitutes the most illegal of searches possible.
How it can be used is an endless question. It can be used however they want, since no one is overseeing the operation.
The real question, is how could it ever happen, and how can it be stopped, with those responsible being brought to justice?
Comment by BARTLEBEE — July 29, 2007 @ 5:11 pm
These are things I have pondered greatly while contemplating the future of us all. I have very mixed feelings on this, seeing things in the long-term, as I’ve tried to do. The way I see it is, data-mining, global spying on all communications everywhere, and the future of such technologies and their impact has only three end-game scenarios:
1) A small group of people have secret access to global communications recording capabilities. Currently, this is what is occurring. This is the single most dangerous form of such recording of communications. This is the scenario most rife with abuse. This is the scenario that has little purpose outside of nefarious purpose. Anyone who has access to such technology has an absolutely enormous advantage over those who don’t. This kind of abuse is hardly limited to government. Businesses, groups of cooperative businesses, or private groups of think tanks, futurists, globalists, or what have you can equally abuse such a system. Military, intelligence, and civilian government may not even be the most vile abusers of such access. Terrorists themselves, with the right tech to intercept digital information, store it, and data-mine it, could do incredible amounts of damage. Imagine the kind of recruiting one could accomplish if one could track down all the like-minded radicals in the country you wish to disrupt, based on the objectives you are trying to achieve in the country you are attempting to infiltrate. This is the option most likely to lead to dictatorship, because the dictatorship has blackmail information on all opposition, whilst they do not have the same on the dictatorship.
2) A carefully constructed and intensely, constantly transparent citizen-sanctioned system is put in to place to monitor communications globally. This would require massive amounts of oversight to combat corruption, and to maintain and prevent abuse dwithin the tremendous level of virtual and real security measures required to prevent the hacking of, breaking in to, or other abuse of the system. This option seems the most likely to me, albeit the most complex, and the one in which it is most critical that the system be organic enough to keep up with changes in the technology.
3) The final option, and the one I think will be the best for mankind in the long-run, but by far the most difficult to implement, is open-access to all information by all people at all times.
Option number three is also by far the scariest, but in light of the alternatives? Do you allow only those in power to have such technology? Absolutely NOT!
Do you risk allowing people in power to abuse a system, even if that system theoretically has constant, intensely scrutinized oversight conducted upon it? Perhaps worth the risk, provided their is constant due vigilance in the oversight, and no chance of such oversight being lifted, suspended, halted, or otherwise impeded, ever.
Or, do you completely level the playing field, and change the entire paradigm of our society at large? The founding fathers would have been hard-pressed to allow for total personal privacy with knowledge of such technology’s existence. They would have known the implications of the few possessing such a tool, as opposed to the many. They would have recognized the unparalleled potential for abuse.
Think of how much society would change, if your only privacy was in your own home, or carefully screened indoor locations. If communications, correspondences, and anything else that leaves your private space whatsoever is constantly at risk of being viewed at any time, by any person, for any reason. Think, if everyone’s lives were as exposed to the world as the lives of celebrities, or politicians, or the like.
Scary? Yes, scary as freaking hell. Quite a different reality to live in, certainly. Where your only real privacy is face-to-face, never from a distance.
But, in the long term, is it as scary as just our military having such information? Or our intelligence assets? Or a few corporations? Or rogue states? Terrorist networks?
As I said, very mixed feelings. But each of the eventual outcomes due to the mere existence of such technologies brings with it some sort of cost. That cost in every instance is a huge shift in how society functions. It is our duty, as a society, to find the solution that is best for our species in the long term.
July 29th, 2007 at 11:16 pmYou call that moderation, moderation?
Open information for everyone? So everyone can listen to everybody elses phone calls? Just go into the database and listen to their neigbors phone calls?
What are you on drugs?
What we need is to go back to only warranted searches based on some kind of demonstrable evidence, as our constitution explicitly dictates.
Anything less is unAmerican and unacceptable.
July 29th, 2007 at 11:55 pmIf you think that a someones private phone calls deserve to be in a database somewhere, particularly one where anyone can access it, then you’re battier than they are.
July 29th, 2007 at 11:58 pmWhat I am saying, Bart, is this:
That information can and will be intercepted. Period. End of discussion. Good luck trying to prevent it, especially as we move more and more to wireless. Seriously, think about the long term.
As I said, do you only want lawbreakers having access to this information, a carefully crafted people-sanctioned and controlled mechanism, or open access.
Do I want it to be that way? Hell, no. But the technology is there, the genie is out of the damned bottle, and it sure as hell ain’t going back in. It just isn’t. You can try to stop it, but think about it. Then think some more. Try to think of the alternatives. Think of it as mental exercise. Mass interceptions and recordings of communications will never go away, from this point in our history on. Who do you want to have access?
July 30th, 2007 at 12:03 amSeriously, it has nothing to do with deserve, it has nothing to do with what I want the reality to be. I want privacy. But every time I talk on the phone, every time I connect to the ‘net, every time I use my credit card, or any other countless number of ways, I am tracked, information is recorded, and eventually data mined. Every day. You too. You nor I will ever, ever stop it. Private groups will track this information and use it, even if it means they break the law.
It is something no other generation in human history has had to deal with. Try to stop it, Bart. If only.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:08 amBullcrap. You hand over your rights if you want but not me.
The discussion only ends if we stop discussing it.
Which sounds like what you’re trying to accomplish. You sound like a Loyalist more than a moderate. Maybe you want to hand over our rights but not me, and not a few hundred million Americans who think like me.
Go join Joe Lieberman and the rest of the namsypansy wimps who jump when the republicans speak. Give up your rights if you want wimp, but don’t give up mine.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:16 amAll that “moderate” bullcrap is just that. Bull.
The cornerstone of our constitution does not permit for the spying on all Americans in their homes and private conversations, and our entire system of democracy stems from it.
Anyone who would roll over for national eavesdropping is no moderate, and sure as hell no real American.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:19 amBullshit, Bartlebee. Bullshit. Loyalist? Have you actually thought about the CURRENT STATE of this technology, much less the future of it?
Do you think any cellphone call you make, or any wireless internet access you have, is even remotely private? Seriously. It’s not, buddy, I hate to break it to you.
In a system in which we know that anyone with enough resources can “listen in”, who do you want to have access? Tell me?
What, you think I f*cking want people to listen in on my private conversations?!? HELL, NO, I MOST ASSUREDLY DO NOT!
Has that stopped the government, who has been caught illegally recording such information? Nope, though I’d love it if it would.
Has that stopped the telecom industries, who have been caught illegally recording such information? Nope, though you never hear any sort of follow-up on such revelations in the media, now do you?
Do you have a way to prevent anyone, anywhere, with the right tool, intercept your wireless communications? Lots of people would love to know how to do that, and would pay you very, very well for it.
Do you have a way to prevent anyone with access to the hubs of our landline communications from mass-recording and storing this kind of information? I’d love to have that kind of tech, too.
It’s not nearly as simple as you propose, Bart. What you propose gives full access to those who wish to break the law, often with little to no repercussions, because they are simply recording everything and letting software sort it all out for them. It’s not the same as tapping a specific wire, or hacking in to an individual phone. Because they can record ALL of the information, it is very difficult to track. We really have no idea how many groups out there are doing that very kind of work right now. This very moment, as we type this to one another.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:36 amGoddammit, didn’t mean to post twice, the first one didn’t appear to go through.
Seriously, Bart. I don’t want my privacy invaded. This one avenue of privacy (transmitted communications) is impossible to maintain. I truly wish it were possible, sir. :( Don’t you dare think otherwise.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:38 amSeriously, Bart. I don’t want my privacy invaded.
Comment by Confederation — July 30, 2007 @ 12:38 am
Want it?
You’re practically begging for it.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:47 amDo you have a way to prevent anyone with access to the hubs of our landline communications from mass-recording and storing this kind of information? I’d love to have that kind of tech, too.
Comment by Moderation — July 30, 2007 @ 12:36 am
Yea Benedict.
They’re called laws.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:48 amAnd before you make more of a fool of yourself, I happen to know a little more than the average bear about this technology, and I can tell you it could be shut down tomorrow.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:54 amDo you have a way to prevent anyone, anywhere, with the right tool, intercept your wireless communications? Lots of people would love to know how to do that, and would pay you very, very well for it.
Comment by Moderation — July 30, 2007 @ 12:36 am
Yea, its called data encryption and MAC Layer Authentication. Available on most wireless accept points sold in the US.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:01 amGood luck with that. They are mass-recording, they leave to trace behind. They simply record EVERYTHING. Then, software sorts it all out. As I said, I am thinking long term. Are you? What will you do when a hand-held device that can be made easily with over-the-counter parts is able to record all wireless transmissions nearby? What will you do when personal computers have the computational power to run the algorithms required to data-mine the recorded info? Those days are not all that far off, either.
Tell me more, don’t just say, “laws”. How the hell are you going to assure that such a conversation is any more private than speaking to another person in the proximity of a third party is? That is the thing you are not getting. Once that signal is broadcast, it can be intercepted by massive numbers of people, eventually with great ease. That is no more private than someone hearing what you are saying to the person next to you. You gave up that privacy when you physically placed yourself in such proximity to that person and began to speak.
Saying, “laws” without anything that can reasonably enforce those laws is crap. Those laws are barely enforceable NOW, much less as the technology gets smaller, faster and cheaper.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:02 amBullcrap. You don’t know what you’re talking about. Only certain individuals have access to Network Access Points (NAP’s) and Central Switching offices. No one can just walk in an d plug in a peice of equipement and start capturing data. Stuff has to be put in place, like Port Mirroring and building out a circuit to offload the data.
It only happened because Bush cheated, and went around the law. Now thats coming to light, which will put an end to the practice.
Giving up and saying “good luck fighting it” is a losers lament, and a miserable one at that. We can fight it, assuming everyones not as defeatist as you are.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:07 amAs for the cell phone monitoring you’re talking about, that tecnology is for individual real time listening, not for data warehousing all cell phone calls. That would still happen at the Central Office, or NAP points.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:09 amI understand the frustration, really. But what you propose is endless data-wars, that don’t actually maintain much of the privacy at all. You are talking about a positively massive police force to enforce this kind of privacy, one that would make the DEA and its War on Drugs look like the mall security down the street and its war on teenagers.
You are absolutely right, we can maintain privacy for a while provided we pump massive resources into it. Again, especially as we move to more and more wireless infrastructure. Eventually, however, it will be as enforceable as preventing people from recording music they didn’t buy. Sorry if you don’t think so, but I think you are 110% wrong on that count.
I am not giving up, sir. But I do think this level of, and type of technology has and will continue to change our species and how it interacts with itself fundamentally.
I have no doubt whatsoever that open access will not happen for a long, long time, if ever. Why the hell do you think so many futurists have written about things like this? It is not nearly so cut-and-dry as you would like. All without even considering how much more it all changes when “jacking in” becomes reality, and when material everywhere is being made with circuitry in it, able to store information. All of this is coming, and it is coming pretty damned soon, too. Imbedded circuitry in everyday objects is already in development, as is man-machine interface.
I’m not trying to be confrontational, and in case you don’t realize, I agree with most of your posts. Look at my post history, my stance is not much different from yours. But on this matter? I happen to think you are wrong.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:24 amYou’re wrong. Plain and simple.
WRONG.
The security is already in place. You don’t understand the technology, nor do you understand the facilities that house the technology, and the infrastructure required to do this.
The only issue is oversight. Either we have it, or we don.t. The system was in place under Bill Clinton for years, and he never turned it on.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:37 amIf you’re ready to hand over our constitutional protections from invasion into our private communcations then thats too bad. We need people with commitment not disillusioned ex patriots who hand over their rights in the past tense as if the matter were closed, when it hasn’t even been put on the table yet.
We have to first TALK about it. We haven’t even done that yet.
July 30th, 2007 at 1:41 am*sigh*
You are right, I shouldn’t give up. Dammit all.
I ardently support our Constitutional protections. I certainly have put my support behind every piece of legislation designed to protect our privacy rights thus far. I hope you don’t have the impression that I haven’t supported such. I will continue to do so, as well.
I still wish I could see a long-term out, though. You know? But as everything becomes more integrated, as processors sort though data at unprecedented speed, as data becomes storable anywhere thanks to integrated circuitry, I think we are in for quite a time.
But you are right, giving up isn’t the answer.
And until then, how the hell do we stop the people who are breaking the law and violating our privacy? How do we even track them all down, if they record things indiscriminately and let software do most of the work of sorting out the mess?
July 30th, 2007 at 2:04 amWhat happened to the Total Information Awareness program?
http://vision.moundalexis.com/pipermail/saic/2006
-February/000644.html
Apparently, TIA was folded into the NSA, hidden behind the “black budget†wall.
Could this be the NSA program, the latest incarnation of the highly illegal TIA, that the Bush administration is trying to hide?
Is this “warrantless,†FISA-skirting domestic data-collection program what top Justice Department officials objected to and wouldn’t reauthorize unless changes were made?
I’m not fooled.
This is very likely exactly what happened to TIA. And if this can be shown to be the genesis of TSP, there will be hell to pay.
July 30th, 2007 at 3:09 amWhat ever happened to NSA Whistleblower Russell Tice. He was fired and harrassed and is a very brave patriot.
Bradblog.com had a video of his tv news interviews but bush would not give congress the clearance to listen to his report on bush’s spying on millions of Americans and something even worse which was probably the harrassment and rendition of law abiding Americans for their opposition to the wars and the police state.
July 30th, 2007 at 3:15 amRead a better blog.
Could it be that “predicting” things that are well known to already have been happening for decades usually turns out to be accurate ?
I predict mobile phones will become popular!
No. It is impossible Bush ordered that. In the same way that it is impossible he ordered US meat inspectors to start inspecting meat.
July 30th, 2007 at 7:47 amThis is what the has been the primarily job of the NSA for several decades.
Clinton never turned what on ?
The same NSA was intercepting all your phone calls just the same under Clinton. The same splitter boxes were installed in ISPs under Clinton to capture all your emails and internet use.
And the same FISA court had the same ~100% approval record for taps, none of which concerned those blanket surveillence programs.
So what didn’t Clinton “turn on” or merit ?
July 30th, 2007 at 7:52 amNo. It is impossible Bush ordered that. In the same way that it is impossible he ordered US meat inspectors to start inspecting meat.
This is what the has been the primarily job of the NSA for several decades.
Comment by Kilo — July 30, 2007 @ 7:47 am
You clearly don’t understand the role of NSA or the history of this.
NSA is not chartered for Domestic surveillance. NSA spys overseas, not in the US. It takes executive order to initiate the use of NSA on the homeland, which except in rare, FISA and other warran authorized cases, has not been done.
Bush changed all that, with a signing statement in 2001, authorizing NSA to begin domestic surveillance using the new national systems in place.
Conspiracy theorists and other anti government individuals for years have been claiming that, but if you had ever worked at a telecom, or had any real understanding of the technology, you’d know that they did not have the capability to do what they can do now. Only once the capability was in place could they begin grabbing ALL US calls, and only once a man like Bush took office, did they ever consider turning it all on.
It is a violation of the 4th Ammendment of the consitution to permit the unwarranted eavedropping on all Americans and no President has the authority to just sign it into law, which is why Mueller and Comey and the rest told Bush’s lawyer, Gonzales, that they could not do it, and why Mueller threatened to resign. Its why Gonzo went to Ashcrofts hospital bed, and tried to circumvent the acting Attorney General and get Aschcroft to sign a document that he didn’t have the legal authority to sign, even if he was the AG at the time, which he wasn’t. Comey knew the program was contrary to the 4th Ammendment and therefore was unconstitutional.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:21 pmAnd until then, how the hell do we stop the people who are breaking the law and violating our privacy?
Comment by Moderation — July 30, 2007 @ 2:04 am
As I have said repeatedly now, by TALKING ABOUT IT.
No one is talking about it.
Guys like Kilo just help to push any discussion into a typical paranoid anti government big brother catagory, and others just don’t get it. Thats because people don’t understand the technology involved, or the infrastructure that technology relies on. Saying its “old news” is incorrect, and just diffuses any real discussion on the topic. Saying its unstoppable is wrong too. The 4th Ammendment of the United States Constitution prohibits this program from being employed against the American people, and thats just all there is too it.
Unless the Constitution is changed to remove the 4th Ammendment, then this program CAN be stopped, and MUST be stopped.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:26 pmOnce someone like Tim Russert, or Brian Williams, looks the camera in the eye, and announces to the country, “Ladies and gentlemen, all phone conversations in the US are being recorded by NSA in an unprecedented violation of our 4th Ammendment protections, and it was ordered by George W Bush”, then the program will change.
Until then, nothings going to be done.
We need people talking about it. We need people vocalizing whats really going on. We don’t need conspiracy theorists just declaring, “oh they’ve always been spying on us”. That diminishes the reality and moves the information into the realm of the kooks.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:32 pmClinton never turned what on ?
The same NSA was intercepting all your phone calls just the same under Clinton. The same splitter boxes were installed in ISPs under Clinton to capture all your emails and internet use.
Comment by Kilo — July 30, 2007 @ 7:52 am
lol.
“Splitter boxes”? lol.
This isn’t cable television Marconi. We’re talking about capturing digitial communications, which is NOT done with “splitter-boxes”. Its done with a technology called “SPAN”, and it wasn’t in place nationwide, until 2000.
July 30th, 2007 at 12:46 pm